Discussion Topic |
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 14, 2017 - 05:41am PT
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Congressman and others shot in Washington:
http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-shooting-reported-at-gop-baseball-1497442200-htmlstory.html
House Majority Whip Steve Scalise (R-La.) was shot at a congressional baseball practice Wednesday morning.
Police in Alexandria, located just outside of Washington, D.C., said they were investigating a "multiple shooting" and a suspect was in custody. Wounded people were being taken to area hospitals for treatment, the police said.
At least five people were shot, Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.), told CNN from the scene of shooting.
The shooter "was going after elected officials," Brooks said, noting that the location of the congressional practice session was well known in the area.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), interviewed on MSNBC, said he was in the batting cage, separate from field, when he heard a shot, then a rapid succession of shots. He saw Scalise shot "but moving," Paul said.
Two congressional aides in the outfield were down, trying to stay low as shots ringing in the dirt around them, he said.
Paul said he heard perhaps 50 to 60 shots, which he said sounded like they were coming from an AR-15 or similar rifle.
Capitol Police officers were present because Scalise, 51, a member of the congressional leadership was there.
"We were really lucky that they were there," he said.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 14, 2017 - 05:57am PT
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Baseball practice?
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Jun 14, 2017 - 06:43am PT
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We really need to ban all guns.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 14, 2017 - 06:53am PT
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The wounded !? Yes, sympathy to those sniveling cowards for not standing up to this wanna-be Dick-tater . They are the most recent patsies of the pussy grabber & thief.
What a coincidence, wipes out all the hard coverage of that sleezey-weasel Sessions' false testimony!
I said more then my system failed to be connected?
There will be more mini Riechstag moments.
This is a mirror of how theUnted States brought down the USSR.
The same goes for the 15 yr's of on going. Conflict in Afghanistan. The flooding of our society with Drugs Porn & alcohol.
Giving the proletariat easy access to every imaginable vice
Literally the opium for the masses. . . .
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:08am PT
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Literally the opium for the masses. . . .
There's a reason we're still in Afghanistan guarding the poppies.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:15am PT
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I guess they are saying an M4. But they won't know who bought it for a while because they have to look at the purchase records by hand, databases of gun purchases being illegal and all (eye roll).
Best wishes to the wounded and everyone affected.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:18am PT
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There are poppies in Afganistan ? Really didn't we see the eradication by the last Bush folly?
Luv-ya, 'fear' and I'm sorry for the next generation that will only know a cowed far from free enslaved existence going forward.
To the youth at my heels, > your on 'all fours'
To those in the 1st half of life ~ in the spirit of the day ~
I got mine and half of yours so go suck dirt.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:23am PT
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Trump tweets concerns immediately. Alt-right nutjob murders two good samaritans on Portland's Max light rail train and not a f*#king peep for days until forced to respond. F*#k that c*#ks@cker...
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Guinness_Fuled_Climber
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:00am PT
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Let me start by saying that I hate republicans and democrats all the same. But healyje, the Portland attacker was a Bernie Sanders supporter so unless I am mistaken he is pretty damn far from alt-right. I only mention this because it seems as though every time something horrible happens the left immediately believes it has to be someone else. F*#k the Portland attacker but let's call him what he is, a liberal.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:09am PT
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Breathe...
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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James T. Hodgkinson. Trump hater, Hillary hater, Bernie lover.
Nutjob's a nutjob, right or left. Best wishes for a speedy recovery for all injured.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:26am PT
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Thanks, NRA.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:28am PT
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Guinness_Fuled_Climber: I wouldn't call him a Bernie supporter but someone who is mentally ill. If you go through the social media posts that claim he is a Bernie supporter, the vast majority of them focus on being Anti-Hillary, not "pro-Bernie". The only pro-Bernie aspect I see is more of an anti-establishment tone / outsider perspective. The vast majority of his stuff was rambling racist alt-right propaganda.
Nice try though.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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Anyone who murders strangers is mentally ill
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:33am PT
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Nutjob's a nutjob, right or left. Best wishes for a speedy recovery for all injured.
+1
I hope nobody dies....
Good thing there were armed officers at the scene, otherwise it would have been worse.
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Guinness_Fuled_Climber
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:50am PT
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Roughster: That is a valid point, he certainly was a racist as#@&%e. Though he did post in favor of Bernie I see that you are correct that it was more of an anti-Clinton and anti-Trump.
Thanks for the correction.
I hope for nothing but the worst for him in prison.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:14am PT
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great point cosmic, do we get to the paint the conservatives with every action by right leaning nutjobs?
oh, you forgot #derangedLiberalGunNut
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:19am PT
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Wow, so some partisans will take satisfaction when their opponents get shot. That's some self-righteous prickery right there.
No one's taking 'satisfaction' over the shooting, merely pointing out the hypocrisy of a president who ignores alt-right shootings while promoting fear of immigrants and muslims, inciting attacks on those same folks, and is a font of and for violent bigotry.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:25am PT
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Good thing for the open carry laws in Virginia
You can just walk around and shoot at will and all the good guys with guns will take you down before you do any killing
wait a second!!!
you can't take the shooter down until he shoots someone first or starts a killing spree.., so the first killings will occur no matter how many good guys with a gun there are??
It doesn't make any sense..
It sure seems the Republicans and Trump are festering this divide, Trump sure hasn't tried to unite the sides, but instead he enrages both sides
I think better gun laws would transfer to less death by guns, since the guns would be harder to get if you're a nutjobloon.
Hard to argue against.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:48am PT
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great point cosmic, do we get to the paint the conservatives with every action by right leaning nutjobs?
Jon, you probably don't, but there are a lot of folks who do just that. Now the sword's going to cut both ways. Sad really, but it's the way things have been done for a long time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:51am PT
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Gun violence is gun violence - a pity these very same congressmen aren't vaguely interested in reining in guns in America.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:51am PT
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Why do some have to instantly make this a left vs. right thing?
It seems this cowardly attack may show an area where we could have bipartisan support to pass better laws that try to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:02am PT
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Possibly because these very same congressman have made it endlessly clear they aren't vaguely interested - bipartisan or otherwise - in doing anything about gun violence.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:17am PT
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Steve Scalise: Anybody that thinks this is where the President wants to end, this is just the beginning. He has a history of wanting to take away the gun rights of law-abiding citizens, and we're not going to stand for it.”
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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after every shooting the political right says if only more people had guns if would have helped
and the left says why don't we try to limit the easy availability of guns by tougher background checks
and so nothing is done, even after 25 eight year olds were slaughtered at Sandy Hook
everyone says they will pray regardless
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:22am PT
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^^^
this is what makes it right and left issue
The right will only do what the NRA tells them, and they control congress, and it comes down to money in their pockets and keeping a rabid base of gun nuts happy
Hence, the only thing that happens is there are more guns being sold because of the hysteria the right creates by lying about guns being taken away
so the problem gets worse because of Republican policy and propaganda
The blood is on their hands, they allowed these people to buy guns, there are more guns being sold than ever before...because of this climate of fear
Will they do anything? No, this will ramp up gun sales.
What about next week's shooting, will we ask the same questions, and whine about people making it a right and left issue?
The left wanted to restrict guns to people that shouldn't have them.
The right said F*#k off!
You can ask madbolter, that's his answer to restricting guns.
Should this person have a gun?
Yes or no?
Multiple people shot in San Francisco at UPS facility
SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) --
Multiple people have been injured after a shooting at a UPS facility in the area of 17th Street and San Bruno Avenue in San Francisco, police say.
WATCH LIVE: ABC7 News coverage of multiple shooting at UPS facility in SF
Sources tell ABC7 News at least three people were shot at the facility and multiple victims have been transported to SF General. The source says the shooter then turned the gun on himself and that currently police are going through the building making sure there aren't any other accomplices.
A source says this was a single shooter who went into the building during a morning meeting and the suspect may be a disgruntled employee. The source says that one of the people who was shot is the suspected shooter.
A witness who was inside the building says she believes it was one driver shooting toward other drivers while a morning meeting was happening.
UPS says police now have the building under their control.
The conditions of the victims are unknown at this time.
http://abc7news.com/news/multiple-people-shot-in-san-francisco-at-ups-facility/2098106/
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:38am PT
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What I find troubling about the Washington assassination attempt, this guy apparently fell into the category of person, who under the Obama law, would not have been able to own guns (domestic violence conviction). He also had a history of firing a shotgun in a neighborhood (who wouldn't want him as a neighbor?).
The Repubs want people like him to have guns. They got their wish.
Bernie Sanders made a statement identifying the shooter as a volunteer on his campaign, and repudiating this action.
Best wishes to the wounded.
Apparently, the practice was in preparation for a dem vs. repug baseball game held yearly to raise money for charity.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jun 14, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
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What the F is the matter with people? Our society is falling to pieces right in front of our eyes :(
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 14, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
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The political threads here on ST are nurseries for whipping up leftist hysteria to "Hodgkinson" levels.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 14, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
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I think better gun laws would transfer to less death by guns
Don't be dense and get all wrapped up with distractions.
Root-cause analysis.
"Laws" don't change people's root motivations for violence or anything else. If someone wants to kill someone or groups of people, they will.
Look to Europe or anywhere else with the recent "terrorist" attacks where "gun laws" basically strip the peasants of firearms. Machine-guns and bombs were still used... Imagine that.
This guy decided to open fire on people he hated. He's not nuts, he simply decided he had enough and left the farm.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
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These two make the tally 153 mass shootings in the first 165 days of 2017.
If you don't think we have a serious gun problem you are delusional.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 14, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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Perhaps we have a serious "violence" problem. You'd have to look at each instance and determine the perpetrators motivations.
I'd wager over 75% of that violence stems from the absolute waste of resources spent on the "War on Drugs" and the organized crime that it creates.
There's something a "law", or better yet, removal of laws, could help.
Although this latest murderer will of course get all of the MSM focus to drive the narrative of "Guns bad", it's a singular event that killed one person in a country of several hundred million.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
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Yeah, easy access to semi-automatic, military-style rifles just can't have anything to do with it.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 14, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
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The political threads here on ST are nurseries for whipping up leftist hysteria to "Hodgkinson" levels.
what an ignorant statement. typical of the uneducated.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
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This is not rocket science. Unfortunately the US has a lot of very disturbed people. We either make it harder for these people to get guns, especially assault weapons, or we accept the consequences in the name of convient access to guns for everyone else.
It is interesting. American "patriots" value rugged individualism and self sufficiency, but we live in a society that depends on cooperation and compromise to flourish. Where is the balance?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 14, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
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And another shooter kills 3 in Cali--UPS pissed off.
Yup, we need more guns out there.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 14, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
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yay guns
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
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I just don't know whether to defecate or go blind.
What if the guy had flown a drone, packin' an agent orange laced grenade into the the game and by some weird quirk of fate it exploded.
Did ya get any on ya?
-Jes Sprayin
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
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The American Right Wing have a terrorist network just like ISIS
You can join and visit hundreds of web sites that can help radicalize you into a terrorist
They are called the Alt-Right, Neo-Nazis, KKK, White Supremacists, White Nationalists, Freedom patriots etc.
It's Trump inspired radicalism and terrorism now
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 14, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
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Insane fools are wrong no matter which side they come from, McVeigh, Rudolph, Sandy Hook, and whatever this as#@&%e's name was.
People have to be debated, and voted out, not shot out.
What an as#@&%e this guy was. He put a massive stain on everything Bernie believes in. F*#k him.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
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The Republican Senator Rand Paul endorsed Taking arms against the Government if you find it tyrannical...
This nut job took the Republicans advice!!!
and most right wingers have guns for this very same purpose
Republican recommendation, shoot at the Government, that will fix all your grievances, what could go wrong..
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 14, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
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Rand Paul should know, he was at the practice.
Would it have been better if this guy had an automatic weapon?
Would it have been better if he had only a knife?
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jun 14, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
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he likely could have killed if he really wanted to
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
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Cosmic, how many times did you post about the numerous death threats President Obama received?
Today's attack was an outrage. As it would be if House Democrat's had been targeted, right?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 14, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
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Where were the tears and the concern that I am seeing from congressmen when their colleagues are "injured" when twenty seven children were "slaughtered" Connecticut?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 14, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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When people start down the path of murdering, they are neither a Democrat nor a Republican.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
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Where were the tears and the concern that I am seeing from congressmen when their colleagues are "injured" when twenty seven children were "slaughtered" Connecticut?
none of that pesky congressional action needed
when "our prayers go out to the families"
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 14, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
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Cosmic, how many times did you post about the numerous death threats President Obama received?
Would cosmic, and sumner, show sympathy if the victims were dems?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 06:12pm PT
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Apparently, Only Donald Trump and his minions are allowed to be non-PC
If the liberals show any sign of non-PC behavior the right wingers go into hysteria mode
and even after the liberals apologize for their non-PC words, the right wing still lift it up as the left wing hate culture
what Kathy Griffith did was nothing, and if it offends you are a hypocrite and dupe to the media hysteria,
and the same goes for Bill Maher, his show was called Politically Incorrect for God's sake.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jun 14, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
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In the old west you had to hand your gun over to the sheriff when you entered town to curtail gun related violence... Ironic that the anti-gun control politicians got a taste of what goes down in the streets of their constituents...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
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what Kathy Griffith did was nothing, and if it offends you are a hypocrite and dupe to the media hysteria,
Disagree. What she did was completely outrageous. It does not aid in bringing creative discourse. She does not represent my views and because of her action, it has only widened the divide.
She deserves to be shunned & ridiculed.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
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you need to put it quotes
like so
what Kathy Griffith did was nothing, and if it offends you are a hypocrite and dupe to the media hysteria,
you hit the " tab above the box
so a D list comedian holding a fake trump head offends you.
a parody, political satire of this sort offends you
OK, good for you
No one said she represents your views
it doesn't offend me nor do I see it anything comparable to what the right do on a regular basis
Ted Nugent wanted to Kill Obama, and hang Hillary, and he is one of thousands of worse
and the whole thing stinks of over blown hysteria just because she is a liberal
the divide grows when you go along with the media narrative that is the cause of the divide
my opinion
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
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She deserves to be shunned & ridiculed.
that's what would be said in Tehran
in liberal democracies, chill folk say/think "maybe not my thing, but shunning and ridiculing burns more calories than I care, so not gonna bother"
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
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I can not believe the right wingers. Trump himself pushed so many debunked whacky narratives. The disrespect for Obama was particularly vile. Now that Trump is president we have to be civil?
Sad to see friends falling for the divisive politics, this includes Cosmic. Violence is wrong and the guy today was off his rocker. What would the right wingers propose we do to prevent a future tragedy, stop criticizing Trump. that would be equally unAmerican
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
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you hit the " tab above the box
so a D list comedian holding a fake trump head offends you.
OK, good for you
No one said she represents your views
Golly! Sounds like I hit a nerve. Sensitive much?
The fact that you don't understand how offensive and counterproductive her actions were speaks volumes about you. She did that not to help heal the country, but rather to fuel the hysteria and get her name in the news cycle. That it backfired on her is gold, Jerry, GOLD!!
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
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Skeptimistic: Did you feel outrage when the right repeatedly posted images of Obama being faux-lynched? Did you shun and ridicule the right?
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
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Kathy Griffin speaks only for herself and no one else
she exists and profits in America because she is controversial just as Ann Coulter is
her action of holding the fake head of President Trump should be repulsive to everyone
she did the political left no favors by creating the False Equivalence of see they both do it crap
she deserves all the sh#t she is getting
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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Did you shun and ridicule the right?
Yes and yes. Still do. Doesn't make what Griffin did right. Today's event is exactly why we need to put the petty bickering aside and find common ground upon which we can build compromise. Each side is guilty of divisiveness and over-the-top 2nd grade temper tantrums.
I'm all for exposing collusion and back room deals that don't benefit the American citizenry. We just need to lead by positive example and quit the social media syitstorm that serves no purpose other than to give me job security when people blow a gasket and need medical attention.
Carry on!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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Alas. Another sexist paunched male I have no interest screwing
Is that alas for you or for him? I assume you refer to the mysterious Norton. He certainly does not look paunched in that photo of himself climbing the giant overhang. And to think we thought him merely a wandering politard.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
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photo of himself climbing the giant overhang
Anyone that believes that's the politard Ňóřtóň is insane ......
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 07:44am PT
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Roughly 1/4 of all workplace deaths are categorized as roadway incidents by OSHA.
Workplace violence now accounts for roughly 1/10 of the pie chart (including domestic incidents that happen at the workplace).
Cancer and heart disease still take more people than guns ever will.
But sure, keep tapping out your blame of the guns on your mobile phone while you're sucking down the double whopper with cheese doing 85 on the 105 during the morning commute, bitching about how insensitive and divisive that other party is who just can't open their minds to your superior political point of view.
Maybe the conservative party will see their way clear now to enact some sensible gun control measures, like banning all sales to registered liberals. Or maybe they'll expand concealed carry.
Maybe they'll wage a war on guns, 'cause, well, you know... it's working for drugs. Riiiigghhht?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 15, 2017 - 08:27am PT
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Yeah, Obummer gonna take yer guns yet. Better go fill the bunker with guns, ammo and spam.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 15, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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Are we sure it wasn't a False Flag event to do just that!!
You notice no one was killed, it may have been staged by Obama as part of his evil agenda to take our guns away....
I better stock up on more guns and ammo so I won't be caught without the fire power needed to keep my God Given Guns!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:18am PT
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The left wanted to restrict guns to people that shouldn't have them.
The right said F*#k off!
You can ask madbolter, that's his answer to restricting guns.
Since you're quoting me, how about getting it right?
And your earlier "doesn't make sense" post itself didn't make sense. Let me help you out....
You see, whether a state is open-carry or concealed-carry really doesn't matter. You see, the vast, vast, VAST majority of people carrying concealed guns are safer to be around than cops (numerous studies have shown that concealed carry permit holders are involved in about 1/6 the number of crimes as are cops). And in States that don't allow open-carry, the criminals are concealed carrying illegally. So, you see, whether the criminal is carrying open because he can or concealed because he must, he remains a criminal. And the vast, VAST majority of people that are legally carrying will never commit any crime. You cannot differentiate at a glance who is legal and who is not, and that's the fact whether the State is open-carry or concealed-carry.
You see, we live in a society, thankfully, in which NOBODY (not the cops nor anybody else) is legally allowed to shoot somebody that has not yet started attacking others. So, you see, it makes PERFECT SENSE that nobody got to open fire on the attacker UNTIL he became an attacker.
That's how it PROPERLY works among law-abiding citizens. And NOTHING works among criminals and nut-jobs like this attacker.
Got it now?
Oh, and quote me correctly if yur gonna bother. My statements and attitude regarding such tragedies as this one are about as far from "F*#k off" as possible. And who are "the right" to which you refer? Be specific, if you can. And, if you can, you'll quickly reveal that all of your recent posts are painting with a ridiculously broad brush.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:20am PT
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Liberals and Obama will surely use this event as a reason to restrict our 2nd Amendment rights.
Oh yeah, Obama the shadow president.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:23am PT
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Spare a thought for these heroes who are in the hospital today. The best our country produces. May they recover quickly.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:07am PT
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There are so many people with guns who say they need them to fight the government ... do they not understand that this is what it looks like when someone uses a gun for that purpose?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:16am PT
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Liberals and Obama will surely use this event as a reason to restrict our 2nd Amendment rights.
Even tho 10B already commented on this prize winning wisdom,
I can't resist noting that it is a very typical view of the alt/faux-brained geniuses who handed Trump the presidency.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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States with lax gun laws have more gun crime. In this case IllNoise exported its problem to VA. There are statistical deviations, I will cite Chicago for you gun nuts, but in the big picture, tough gun laws lowers gun violence.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:49am PT
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in the big picture, tough gun laws lowers gun violence
Even if that were true, which it's not been demonstrated, it's irrelevant unless you are crystal clear about what "tough gun laws" really means.
This nation was not designed to be just another European Socialist Democracy. The capacity for violence was "designed in" by our founders, and very intentionally so. Our founders presumed that the vast majority of us would retain the ability to exercise good judgment and basic morality. And, over the centuries since, the indications are that they were correct. The VAST majority of us are well in control over our capacity for violence.
If you prefer to live in a nation like one of the ESDs, then you are free to move to one. This nation is not one of them, and I hope it never will be.
The relative (very) few criminals and nut-jobs are statistically insignificant, that said without in the slightest trivializing the pain of the tragedies they produce. These should not be the basis for national policy or a fundamental change in the most fundamental values of this nation.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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The Second Amendment has been showing it's age for many years. Not to worry, amending it to better fit the modern world should fix things nicely.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:46am PT
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No sh#t. Unfortunately the combination of the gun manufacturers and their NRA shills are adroit at driving fat, declining, white, middle-aged, anti-government male hysteria. Guns - probably a better substitute for, and more effective than viagra, at getting to the real problem at the heart of the matter.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:46am PT
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Donini how would you like that if it was said to you,.......?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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If someone can amend (or mend) my tired, out of date, body and bring me back into the modern world I would be all for it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:51am PT
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To be honest, if it were me, I'd try to find a 12-step program that could cure me of the predominant white-male dick/gun/govt delusion or at least hold it at bay so long as I was vigilant. In my case, though, spending a year six-on / six-off, 24x7x365 in a 5" gun turret (aka a real gun) cured me of the affliction for life.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:55am PT
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Not to worry, amending it to better fit the modern world should fix things nicely.
Yeah, except for the fact that that wouldn't change the underlying right to which the second amendment refers. The second amendment references a right; it does not grant it nor define it. And any law that does "infringe" on that right is de facto an invalid law, regardless of the verbiage of the second amendment or even if there were no second amendment.
It's of note that many of the founders did not want a Bill of Rights because they worried that our exact state of affairs would come to pass: Instead of seeing the Bill of Rights as a redundant bolt-on, we would come to see it as actually granting and defining the rights that the amendments reference. But ALL of the founders, federalist and anti-federalist alike, did not believe that the initial Bill of Rights GRANTED the rights to which they referred. They had one purpose: To ENSURE that the federal government would NEVER think to touch ("infringe upon") those particular, most dearly-held, rights.
Now, just as they worried, we get all confused and think that those amendments grant and define OUR rights, which they do not. They define ONLY prohibitions upon the federal government. However, those prohibitions were already implied in the enumeration of powers clause, making the Bill of Rights redundant and unnecessary.
It's a core contract-design principle that you avoid redundancy! And that is because of this very sort of later-introduced confusion. You do not want "the same thing" being said multiple ways, because then you get into arguments about "which version" is controlling!
And now, so many of you guys even want to abandon originalism, which means that you want to abandon original intent, making already murky waters even murkier. Fortunately, we do have the surrounding documents to clarify what our founders were thinking and what they intended. We know why the Bill of Rights came to be. And we know what it was intended to accomplish. So we know that it had nothing to do with constraining or defining OUR rights.
Let's say that enough people got together and eliminated the first amendment. Would that suddenly make our actual RIGHT of free speech and the RIGHT of a free press disappear? Or would you (correctly) recognize that any subsequent laws to infringe upon or eliminate the exercise of those rights were de facto invalid laws?
Do you believe that legality produces morality? If so, you have things exactly backwards, and you have no basis upon which to reform or overturn immoral laws. Moral laws enshrine inalienable rights. Such rights are not granted nor defined by laws.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 11:57am PT
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Yeah, except for the fact that that wouldn't change the underlying right to which the second amendment refers.
Oh please - the natural rights argument for guns is beyond tired and lame. Right now it's a right whose scope is entirely inappropriately defined by a highly activist decision of a conservative majority of the court. It, like citizens united, should be tossed on it's ears.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
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Ever wonder what happened to civil discourse in this country? The constant name calling and road rage back and forth on this and other threads. Ever read the comments on a yahoo news article: awful stuff? Everybody's either a "libtard" or a "redumblican." Whatever happened to reasoned argument? I think the internet, talk radio and the Self-righteousness of partisan politics have so divided the country. It looks like we're ready for another civil war. People need to get a grip on reality and put away the gratification they get from nastiness; it's a waste.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
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Get rid of him and many of the problems will be instantly solved...
No it wouldn't, the puppets are just for show. It took me a long time to figure that out too.
This is yet another distraction in the circus. No different then woman's rights, LGBT issues, etc.
The real MIC that runs this empire couldn't care less what small arms are in closets around the country. But this will be debated endlessly to divide and distract the herd. Get 'em clawing at each others throat's worrying about nonsense when this country murders around the world nonstop.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
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So, just to be clear, some of y'all who think the war on drugs is failing also think that some new gun legislation would be thoroughly effective. Riiggghhht?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:31pm PT
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The real MIC that runs this empire ...
Ah, not just anti-government, but conspiracy shadow government. Got it. Gotta git me a gun...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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healyje,
There's nothing "shadowy" about it. Open your eyes and see how many countries we're either actively invading, occupying, or supporting those who do. How many hundreds of billions do we hand to Israel and Saudi Arabia. Right in the open, nothing hidden.
It's not hard.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
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Oh please - the natural rights argument for guns is beyond tired and lame.
Then, simply, move to another nation that believes that "rights" are just vague ideas that should properly be subject to the whims of government. That's the nation you want, and there are plenty like that. By contrast, this nation is the only one that still enshrines in its founding documents that "tired and lame" notion. You've got lots of options. People like me have only one. So, leave this option for people like me, and you can take your pick of other alternatives.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
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Yeah, except for the fact that that wouldn't change the underlying right to which the second amendment refers.
I've always wondered, does the 2nd amendment also give someone the right to kill someone?
Ever wonder what happened to civil discourse in this country? The constant name calling and road rage back and forth on this and other threads. Ever read the comments on a yahoo news article: awful stuff? Everybody's either a "libtard" or a "redumblican." Whatever happened to reasoned argument? I think the internet, talk radio and the Self-righteousness of partisan politics have so divided the country. It looks like we're ready for another civil war. People need to get a grip on reality and put away the gratification they get from nastiness; it's a waste. I agree with you, unfortunately, I get caught up in the heat of the argument, and at times am guilty of uncivil discourse.
I will say this though. I do think that trump does incite people to act irrationally, and that unfortunately, can lead to violence. I don't recall people being as worked up over bush(eventhough he was pretty unpopular).
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 15, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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Paul, Trump won the most powerful political position in the world by completely abandoning any hint of civil discourse. In fact, he did the opposite. Obviously, it works, so don't look for a return to reasoned discussion happening any time soon.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 01:02pm PT
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Then, simply, move to another nation that believes that "rights" are just vague ideas that should properly be subject to the whims of government.
Oh please yet again. Pedaphelia and slavery could just as easily be rights under such a belief system and philosophy where 'rights' are just in the eye and interests of the beholder.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 15, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
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Amendment II
A well regulated militia (italics mine), being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
Arms, shall not be infringed.
Everybody thinks this means EVERYBODY. It's NOT!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
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Spot on, DMT. Thanks.
I've always wondered, does the 2nd amendment also give someone the right to kill someone?
The second amendment doesn't give any right at all. It references a right that all of our founders took to be pre-existing.
If you're asking, "Can I legitimately murder somebody because the second amendment says I can?" well, I think pretty obviously: No!
But the second amendment does presume the pre-existing right to life and its implied right of self-defense. Killing somebody in self-defense is not murder, is nowhere in this nation illegal, and is presumed to be moral by the second amendment.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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Pedaphelia and slavery could just as easily be rights under such a belief system and philosophy where 'rights' are just in the eye and interests of the beholder.
Joe, you honestly have me confused about what you really think. You apparently believe that pedaphelia and slavery are wrong, but, given many things you've said, I can't imagine how you derive that they are.
What do you think that a "right" actually is? Any right, forget about "inalienable," "negative," or "positive" rights. Just rights in general. What do you think a "right" is?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
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...but could never get behind legislation from the bench.
I dunno, it sounds like you already have if you accept DC v Heller - the very definition of activist legislation from the bench.
What do you think that a "right" actually is? Any right, forget about "inalienable," "negative," or "positive" rights. Just rights in general. What do you think a "right" is?
More to the point is who decides what a "right" is given they don't fall from a god's pocket.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 15, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
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That's why I would back an effort to legally modify the 2nd amendment but could never get behind legislation from the bench.
Agreed, legislate from the legislature so the bench does not have to. problem is the NRA has the legislature sucking its money teat.
The NRA does not believe there should be any legislation regarding guns, that the Constitution is sufficient by itself. That is utter nonsense, both in a legal sense, and in common sense.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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The American Right Wing have a terrorist network just like ISIS
You can join and visit hundreds of web sites that can help radicalize you into a terrorist
They are called the Alt-Right, Neo-Nazis, KKK, White Supremacists, White Nationalists, Freedom patriots etc.
It's Trump inspired radicalism and terrorism now
A self-proclaimed Burny-luvin' Repub-hater looses his nut and goes AWOL.
You politard clownz panties are in a major, smelly bunch. Especially Garbledoosh
This shooter azzhole was inspired by REAL haters...like Craig Fry.
What a troubled soul...Fryl00n that is.
Re-read his quote above. Fuk**g nut job
**Russ is winning biggly
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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Given the preponderance of such shooters are from the right, it was only a matter of time before folks on the far left picked up on the alt-right's dominant love-theme of arming themselves against the federal government. Their aim will no doubt improve in time.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
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More to the point is who decides what a "right" is given they don't fall from a god's pocket.
Well, see, I do have a theory about that, which I've expressed. You reject it (without any substantive reason that I've been able to detect), yet I don't see what you have in its place.
That's what I'm trying to get clear about. At times you seem like a very radical moral relativist. But then you'll refer to certain "wrongs" as though they are just obviously and objectively wrong. I don't see any way you can sustain that view, but I'm not even sure that you hold it.
So, bottom line is that I feel like I'm arguing against a moving target, and I'd really like to get clear about what you do think is the basis for calling any behavior "wrong," such that, presumably, there "ought" to be a law against that behavior.
Again, you reject "natural rights" (which I actually don't hold to, but have a much more Kantian notion), but I don't see your replacement.
Please advise. Thank you.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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All rights are ultimately conveyed by those that enforce them, no need to invoke the divine.
Even apart from invoking the divine, our answer had better be more robust than this! Otherwise, what you mean by "right" is something like "whatever a bare majority, or a more powerful faction, can force upon others." But I don't see how that can be the correct answer, because then....
1) You have no way to "reform" society; you can at most attempt to "gain the upper hand" and impose your own will instead, but that doesn't suggest that you have any "right" to do so;
2) You have no way to talk in moral terms at all: Hitler was "right" for him and his society, and, had that perspective won by force of arms, it would then be by definition "right" for the whole world;
3) The strong will ALWAYS prevail over the weak, in which case the entire liberal perspective crumbles, as there's not even a good reason to "fight" against "oppression." What the weak call "oppression" is literally just what "right" is!
And so on.
This nation was designed to ensure that rights would NOT get trampled upon by ANY form of faction, be it the faction of the bare majority or the faction of the strong, the wealthy, or the most clever. Yes, such factions "win" at times and for a time, but our nation is designed to provide the means by which such factions can, non-violently, be overturned.
Take away a robust notion of rights, and the whole house of cards falls down, leaving us with only the prospect of violence.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
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those would be the rights we have until and unless we take them back
Ah, I think I see the issue. It's the word "have," which I take you to mean, "practically can expect recognition of." You are reading "rights" as a sort of "agreement" that people have or don't have, where in a totalitarian society, you "have" no particular rights because there is no "agreement" that you "have" them.
Am I on the right track in understanding what you mean by "have" here?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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the amendment process is clearly spelt out in the constitution
It doesn't take a constitutional change in order for the bare majority (particularly at the State level) to force their will upon the bare minority. Just look at how all-over-the-place gun laws are State-by-State.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
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When would it NOT be a crime to shoot someone in the government?
Power Bottom are you serial??
Sounds like it. Go get it Craig
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
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Somebody better tell Russ his 12 year-old has been posting under his name here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
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You have a point Crankster.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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Killing somebody in self-defense is not murder, is nowhere in this nation illegal, and is presumed to be moral by the second amendment.
Except that nowhere in the 2nd amendment is morality mentioned.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Jun 15, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
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Somebody better tell Russ his 12 year-old has been posting under his name here
It's actually, right in Crankl00ns wheelhouse of stupidity
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
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Except that nowhere in the 2nd amendment is morality mentioned.
You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you really are clueless about what you are arguing.
The second amendment does mention the RIGHT (to bear arms), and a RIGHT is a function of morality.
Your favorite moral theory might be some form of relativism. It might be some form of deontology. It might be moral-skepticism. There are many alternatives. But if you are going to talk about RIGHTS, then you ARE going to ground that notion in some moral theory, even if you are doing nothing more than conflating morality and legality.
Most of our founders were deontologists, and their notion of RIGHTS was grounded in a natural-rights moral theory (such as advocated by Locke) or a pure deontology, such as advocated by Kant. They well understood the negative/positive rights/duties distinction as elucidated by Kant. And their notion of "rights" was firmly grounded in such a moral theory.
So, yeah, the second amendment EXPLICITLY mentions morality.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
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They guns are already here, more than enough of them to wreak whatever disaster you can imagine. You're not going to get rid of them. It didn't work for drugs, it won't work for guns. Best get a different strategy.
2nd amendment? Yeah, the courts basically decided that as an INDIVIDUAL right. Look it up. There are, however, reasonable restrictions that can be placed on that right. Which is pretty much borne out by other court decisions, or a lack of them.
Disenfranchised gun nuts? There's a lot of them. Idiots with guns? Lot of them too. Suicides? Yeah. Guns make that process easier. Maybe y'all just really need to start working on more of the overall social problems that led up to so many of the events taking place. Like quit acting like anyone who doesn't share you're point of view is just some stupid alt-right troll intent on nothing more than eliciting a response from you.
I know I know, nobody will even take the time to respond, it's not worth it for a back - deleting troll like me right? Sh#t, you couldn't even take the time to answer my basic question of whether you think some fantastic new restriction on firearms would be more or less effective than the (oft lamented as failed) war on drugs?
It's ok. They more you ignore me, the more I think that I must truly be detested in this regard. Plus as a bonus, I get to imagine whatever point I made was valid enough to preclude your immediate and boisterous dismissal. And so it goes.
Keep right on being blind and dismissive of those opposing political views. Bury your head in the sand and pretend you can't possibly fathom why people on the edge suddenly find justification for despicable acts. It won't be a lie, just another opportunity to decry the tool. Y'all are busy running your mouths barking up the wrong tree. But it still won't solve f*#king thing.
Change will come in time; but maybe not in your time, or as you envision it. Such a lack of ability to dynamically assess, it lost you the election.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
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You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you really are clueless about what you are arguing.
The second amendment does mention the RIGHT (to bear arms), and a RIGHT is a function of morality.
Your favorite moral theory might be some form of relativism. It might be some form of deontology. It might be moral-skepticism. There are many alternatives. But if you are going to talk about RIGHTS, then you ARE going to ground that notion in some moral theory, even if you are doing nothing more than conflating morality and legality.
Most of our founders were deontologists, and their notion of RIGHTS was grounded in a natural-rights moral theory (such as advocated by Locke) or a pure deontology, such as advocated by Kant. They well understood the negative/positive rights/duties distinction as elucidated by Kant. And their notion of "rights" was firmly grounded in such a moral theory.
So, yeah, the second amendment EXPLICITLY mentions morality.
You're opinion, only.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:50pm PT
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eh, f*#k it. wall o text deleted.
peace out, and good luck.
#watchingtheworldburninhidef
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:06am PT
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Except that nowhere in the 2nd amendment is morality mentioned.
Except for the fact that it's part of The Bill of Rights.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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The right of self ownership is natural. It has been routinely infringed upon by governments and people, but that does not make it less of a right.
With self ownership comes a host of other rights. Again, if they are taken from us, they are still rights.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:30am PT
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2 rights don't make a wrong...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:38am PT
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A right unenforced is no right at all.
I can half agree with you. But the fact that something exists even though you or I don't have it is not simply an academic point. This is why we fight for our rights. "Enforce" them as you say. Because they are real, having them or not doesn't change that.
A religious person would call such rights God given, beyond the reach of government. As a secularist I'll call them natural rights.
I get the practicality of what you say. What you don't have may as well not exist for you. But the reality of certain rights has motivated people to strive to attain them for centuries.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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Nicely stated Ksolem....I agree. A problem might arise in what people consider to be natural rights...bound to get differing opinions on that.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:55am PT
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These kinds of discussions tend to elevate rights beyond what they really are: human constructs. They aren't laws of nature, God, or anything except what a group of people found useful to recognize at one time or another.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
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I would argue that self ownership is our fundamental right. All too frequently violated though. But I don't see it as a human construct.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 16, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
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Power to the people
Right on
But, lease to own!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 16, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
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Seems to me America is the only country that ever started with perfection but opted for progress. I say this momentarily ignoring the stain of slavery. The problem with progress is the degree to which it demands population increase. And population determines in large part the amount of freedom we can enjoy. Freedom is a function of population. We are no longer an agrarian society with substantial distances between our homes, instead we are crowded into communities where regulation and law are the only ways to insure an equality of freedom and that means some freedoms are restricted.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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How about the stain of Native American genocide to go with slavery? Perfection is an idea, not reality.
I love this country, but we need to take the blinders off if we ever hope to evolve.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 16, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
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Can a single individual construe rights or is impossible until the population doubles?
-RMalthus
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 16, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
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Rights are a human social construct, start to finish, imo. A single person needs no rights. They come from society and are defined by society and they are implemented through power.
I understand your point now, although I deeply disagree with it due to the heinous implications it has.
I'm glad that this nation was founded by people that did not share your view, or we would not have ended up with the constitution we did. Even though we have regularly fallen FAR short of the ideals espoused in our founding documents, I am very thankful for the expressed ideals, which have made this nation the greatest in the history of the world.
We drift from or abandon those IDEALS at our peril!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 16, 2017 - 08:43pm PT
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Driftin' too far from shore. Apparently never lived in Atlantis!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 17, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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A single person needs no rights
A single person - that is an individual unimpeded by others - has all of their rights.
I think Paul is onto something, the more of us there are the more vigilant we must be to protect our rights. And from here we could bust off into a discussion of what constitutes a Civil Society, but double ot is a stretch.
The news is that Scalise took a lateral shot to the hips, the bullet entered one side and traveled laterally across through his pelvis. That had to cause a lot of damage.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 17, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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A group of single persons - that is a bunch individuala unimpeded by others - has[sic] all of their rights.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 17, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
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Societies come into existence to acknowledge and protect rights. Otherwise it's safer to be a loner or band together with a few like-minded people.
Of course, later, these same societies have an emergent "ruling class" that comes to believe that its power/interest trumps rights. Typically, the only solution is to occasionally kill off that ruling class and start over.
"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."
We're pretty ruled at present. Fortunately, there remain to us legal, non-violent methods by which to throw off our shackles. Until those are exhausted, there is NO excuse for violent revolution. We're a LONG way from exhausting those, which is why these "lone wolf" "mini-revolutions" we see now and then are so utterly misguided and despicable.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 17, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
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We thank Scalise for his sacrifice in help keeping America free.
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| Messages 1 - 127 of total 127 in this topic |
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