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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Mar 14, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
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Philo, thanks for the Skeel article.
Guy, did you read that?
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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Mar 14, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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The future can and will be awesome despite bull from both corners of the same political loving members of society.
Hey did anyone catch a recent study published in the journal of industrial ecology? Seems that off the showroom internal combustion engines have a much smaller carbon footprint when compared to the electric cars like the Nissan leaf. And then where is that electricity coming from?
Depending on many factors of course, the point they even up on carbon footprint is between 60,000 to 100,000 miles. I'm not a scientist but did print and read the article, they give evidence at 100k and 200k.
Curious about battery cycle life, that's a lot of cycles to get to 100k and the greenies at that point STILL have a LARGER carbon footprint.
So yea, the future is going to be great, lets just not believe everything from either side.
Aloha,
Will
Title "comparative environmental life cycle assessment of conventional and electric vehicles"
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 14, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
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Nohea, automobiles used to take a great deal more resources to build, weigh a ton more and get ridiculously poor gas milage. I think they can now build something like five cars for the same amount of raw materials as it took to build one in the 40s. You are now looking at 100 years of automobile evolution. I see this as a good and encouraging thing. Don't you suppose that Electric and Green vehicles will experience a similar on going technological improvement? Don't you suppose that Solar generation of electricity will likewise continue to improve? I think the Tesla S is at about the equivalent stage in the developement of electric vehicles as the 57 Chevy was to internal combustion cars. Internal combustion engines are still pathetically inefficient (something like 13%) at converting the potential energy of gasoline to useful locomotion.
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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Mar 14, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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I agree with the great advances in tech with autos and believe it will be the same with solar, wind and EV's. Just curious and I don't know the answer, wasn't it a free market that drove the tech revolution? Sure the state said you must put seat-belts in so we got them and not airbags till much later, but the market demanded advances and we got them.
The green revolution is getting a fair amount of tax dollars and incentives to buyers and yet so few are being bought.
And all these proud leaf owners(both of them) should know the truth.
Doing this off my ipad with a glass of wine in the other hand, so I'm out but it's an interesting topic and I am hard wired to be optimistic.
Aloha,
Will
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Mar 14, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
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I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the HUGE numbers of animals and birds killed by automobiles, and the very large problems roads cause for migration.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 14, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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This is a pic of the Fall 1977 issue of the CoEvolution Quartely published by the Whole Earth Catalog. It shows Los Angeles in 1900. The very bottom caption says Note clear skies.There are several buildings with then commercially available thermosiphon solar water heaters. They were quite effective for the times and were gaining wider popularity and acceptance. Until the vested interests of big biz using their bought and paid for politicians, forced cconsumers to remove them before they would be wired to the new power grid. This happened in several American sun belt cities across the US. The same tactic was used effectively on midwest farmers and their once ubiquitous wind mills. So the notion of "Free" Market forces fails muster in light of the tens of billions of tax dollars we still shell out like undeserved corporate welfare to Big Oil.
This is the pic on the back cover of the same journal. It depicts the Signal Hill oil field in the Los Angeles basin around 1920.
It is amazing what can be accomplished by "free" market forces in just 20 years isn't it?
Incentive is a tool that Govt can use for good or ill. IMO it is good for State and Federal Governments to incentive-ise sustainability.
Where the market forces play out is in manufacturing improvements and technical advances that make a company's product better and more successfully accepted than their competitors. Like cel phones and iPads etal. And Electric cars.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 14, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
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Another view of Signal Hill, aka Porcupine Hill.
I hear that in it's day it was a real wildlife sanctuary.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 15, 2013 - 02:38am PT
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http://www.moah.org/exhibits/archives/horseless.html
Horseless Carriage Days
April 19 - June 4, 1993
Europeans invented the horseless carriages, but Americans embraced it. As early as 1896, J. Frank and Charles Duryea established the Duryea Motor Company in Peoria, Illinois, and sold the first dozen American-made cars. By 1900 American carmakers had sold about 8,000 vehicles, and by 1910, registrations had soared nearly to half million and were rising rapidly. Leading the adoption of automobiles were doctors and other professionals, but others quickly followed, putting cars into service for the purpose of business, politics, commuting, and recreation. By 1910 automobiles were already becoming necessities.
Not everyone embraced the new machines, however, and enthusiasts had to argue the automobile's superiority over the old "haymotors." Advocates claimed the cars were faster than horses, didn't tire, consumed less fuel, never ran away and were also cleaner. Some even reasoned that cars would eliminate traffic congestion, because an automobile only took up half the space of a horse and buggy!
This exhibition presents lovingly preserved vehicles from the 1900-1910 period, along with related material that illuminates how people experienced that complex, finicky, but most versatile machine, the horseless carriage. The cars themselves displayed great variety in cost, technical innovation, and performance capability. They ranged from a motorized buggy like the Columbus to the powerful, heavy (and costly) Packard.
Reading Automobiles
No consumer product compared with the horseless carriage in complexity. There were hundreds of different brand names and types of cars, and even the simplest of vehicles could have thousands of parts. Figuring out what car to buy and how to operate and maintain it required a great deal of information. Learning how to fix it demanded, as one writer put it, "a liberal education in itself."
The motorists' ally in dealing with automotive complexity was the popular press. Specialized publications such as Horseless Age helped car buyers, sellers, owners, operators, repairers, parts suppliers, and even those who just wanted to follow the horseless carriage revolution. More than any invention before or since (except perhaps the computer), the automobile triggered and became part of an "information revolution."
Equipping The Car
Much debate swirled around what it meant to say a car was "fully equipped". Should it come with tires, a windshield or top to keep out the rain? And what about headlights for night operation? Buyers could not take any of these accessories for granted in horseless carriage days, for the definition of just what standard equipment was remained in flux. And there was little agreement among federal, state and local laws as to the equipment required, if, indeed, such laws even existed.
Once owners equipped their machines with the basics, there were always enticing extras to purchase. From the dawn of the industry, "after market" accessories allowed people to individualize their machines. Many added clocks, speedometers, horns, steering wheels, or "Motor-meters," a popular device that monitored engine water temperature and warned of impending engine overheating.
Touring
The mobility the automobile introduced accounted for much of its initial popularity. Traveling ever-greater distance within a shorter period of time was hailed as "a revolution in daily life." Touring emerged as a popular new activity. The drive was an end unto itself as the roads of America beckoned.
Auotmobile societies and clubs were formed, long distance events such as the Glidden Tours were held, and Transcontinental crossings become major news events. This trend prompted a new craze in travel. In 1904 alone it was estimated that several thousand Americans took cross-country automobile vacations. The lure of the open road was too much to resist and Americans risked much for the adventure of touring.
The automobile made it possible to view some of the nation's great natural attractions.
Short distance touring was an added feature of the new trend in touring. The traditional Sunday outing could now encompass even greater distance. Many argued that a leisurely drive in the county offered modern urban Americans a superior form of relaxation, entertainment and family unity.
Group motor tours combined socializing and sightseeing. Formerly remote places of historical interest were now accessible. Here a group of enthusiasts visit the rural San Xavier Mission in Arizona.
Between 1905 and 1913 the Glidden reliability tours were run. Sponsored by Charles J. Glidden, a millionaire automobile enthusiast, the tours were intended to demonstrate the reliability of the various motorcars on the market. The first Glidden tour in July 1905 took eleven days and covered an 870 mile route through New York City and New England. As one participant noted: "The tour has proved that the automobile is now almost foolproof. It has proved that American cars are durable and efficient. It has shown the few who took part how delightful their short vacation may be, and it has strengthened our belief in the permanence of the motorcar. By 1907 popular interest in reliability runs was giving way to interest in gasoline economy runs.
Racing was also a way to generate interest in cars and demonstrate their reliability. In 1908 a group of intrepid racers competed in an around the world event - New York to Paris via Russia and Western Europe - that caught the public's fancy. Auto racing today continues to be used as a competetive weapon in the auto industry.
The first woman to drive across the United States was Alice Huyler Ramsey. At twenty-one this Vassar graduate from New Jersey and her crew took 41 days to travel from New York to San Francisco in June of 1909. She later stated that she "was born mechanical, and inheritance from my father. My husband wasn't mechanical at all. Even though he supported her cross-county trip and other undertakings, her husband never learned to drive himself. In 1960 the AAA commended her as "Woman motorist of the Century'.
Selling Automobiles
The bicycle boom of the 1890's had acquainted thousands of Americans with the joys of the open road, and many bicycle owners became early buyers of the cars. The country's size, great distances between destinations, and relative wealth also favored car buying.
From the manufacturer's perspective, in the 1900's it was harder to make a good car than to sell one. Many carmakers counted on selling their wares at big-city shows, a custom that also started with the bicycle, because they lacked developed dealer networks. New York City held the first auto show in the autumn of 1900, and other cities quickly imitated the practice. Carmakers also advertised heavily, soon becoming the largest consumer of the services of the newly professionalized advertising business.
Purchasers faced daunting prospects. Not only were the advertisements misleading, but each year brought new manufacturers into the market, offering a bewildering variety of vehicles. There were cars powered by electricity and fuel-based engines; lightweight buggies with small engines competed with heavy touring machines with powerful power plants. And buyers got no help from published road tests, owner surveys, or consumer organizations, for such things hadn't yet been invented. It was truly the era of caveat emptor, or buyer beware!
Maintaining and Repairing Automobiles
The popular song, "You'll Have to Get Out and Get Under," aptly described one unpleasant aspect of owning a horseless carriage. Before 1910 mechanical breakdowns were an expected part of motoring. As evidence of this, manufacturers boasted about the ease with which the crankcases of their cars could be dropped, cylinders removed, or engines opened up to remove carbon buildup.
Early cars demanded constant attention. "To keep a machine in a state of perfection, "observed one owner in 1908, "one should devote every morning from ten to forty-five minutes to carefully oiling and looking over different parts." Even with vigilance, however, problems occurred. Spark plugs shorted out when the porcelain separated from the metal; springs were prone to break on encountering bad bumps; and rubber tires were destroyed by gasoline, sunlight, and sharp stones, which rendered them truly the Achilles heel of early vehicles.
Dressing the Part
Early automobile dress was merely an adaptation of contemporary leisure clothing. After the turn of century, fashion caught up with the motoring phenomenon and new styles appeared.
Long, loosely fitted coats were worn by both sexes. Designed to allow for maximum mobility and protection these coats were available in numerous and often ingenious variations. Leather was the most desired fabric for cool weather while the lighter weight "duster" in linen or cotton was favored for summer driving.
Automobile accessories were critical features for motoring dress. From gloves to goggles; caps to hoods; protection and fashion were both critical elements of open air driving. Automobile and fashion periodicals lavishly illustrated the very latest in accessories which flooded the American and European markets, ensuring that the auto enthusiast kept apace with the latest developments in fashion as well as in technology.
Resisting the Automobile
Much of the rural opposition to automobiles was waged chiefly at touring motorists. Farmers claimed tourists posed a danger to stock, horsedrawn traffic and even crops. Opposition to automobiles ranged from plowing up roads, barbed wiring roads making them impassable to boycotting car-driving businessmen who attempted to conduct business with farmers and even refusing to support politicians who owned automobiles.
While most horsebreeders were put out of business by the horseless carriage, blacksmiths, carriage makers, and livery stable operators might adapt their operations to accommodate the new machines. This blacksmith converted his shop to an early service station of horseless carriages. Reconciliation began when the unparalleled service the automobile provided during the San Francisco earthquake of 1906 served to entrench its usefulness and relative reliability in the mind of American society. 200 privately owned motorcars, a caravan of motortrucks led by Walter C. White, and 15,000 gallons of gasoline donated by Standard Oil were all part of the relief effort in post-quake San Francisco.
Physicans were one of the first professions to widely adopt the automobile. The more reliable and faster auto ensured that housecalls, particularly to rural patients could be easily undertaken. For example, Dr. Thomas Williams (shown at right), who was the first pysician in Palo Alto to own an automobile, drove a 1906 Autocar.
Ford's Model T introduced the automobile to a wider American buying public. With the introduction of this hugely successful car, opposition to the automobile, already in decline, virtually vanished .
The Electric Car
As we face a myriad of environmental problems caused by driving gasoline-fueled cars for nearly a century, an innovative and viable solution for the problem may be the electric car. A battery operated electric car, noiseless, odorless, pollution-free, could be the answers to worries about toxic fumes and depletion about natural resources. Intriguing, though, is that thousands of electric cars were in operation for twenty to thirty years around the turn of twentieth century and that women drove most of them. In fact, the cars were marketed heavily to women, as shown by the ad illustrated here, once sales analysis indicated women were the primary market for the electric car.
Clean, comfortable, and easy to operate, electric cars didn't need cranked or motor driven starters and many were designed as enclosed vehicles. Electric cars had limited range (improving from 20 to 50-100 miles per charge by 1910) and were less powerful than gasoline powered cars, making them best suited for running errands about town. Manufacturers predicted in 1899 that "...the whole of the United States will be...sprinkled with electric charging stations."
Perhaps the most popular electric car sold in the United States was the Detroit Electric, which began production in 1907. Originally produced by the Anderson Carriage Company, the company changed its name to Detroit Electric Car Co. in 1918 and continued to build electric vehicles until ceasing operations in 1939. The best production year was 1916, with about 3,000 units sold.
Ultimately, the limitations of electric cars outweighed their good points. Although Thomas Edison optimistically announced a long-distance electric storage battery in 1901, he was unable to effectively manufacture it until 1908. The 1908 battery provided a range of up to 200 miles, but was expensive (over $600) and inefficient when charging (over 30% of the charging energy was wasted). After World War I started, manufacturing capacity was diverted to batteries for submarines until 1920.
As a result, as long distance touring and high speed driving became popular in America, neither could be done in an electric car. The gasoline-powered engine won out, but good ideas are persistant: as we begin the twenty first century, we are thinking again about the advantages of the electric car.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 15, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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Guy, did you read that?
Dave,
Yes I did, thanks.
I still say there is no free lunch, by that I mean all of man's activities have an impact on the earth.
It's best to weigh out the pro's and con's before declaring a fix or solution to ones problems.
And to Philo Ill say this... you can post all sorts of uguly oil field photos, but if you go to Signal Hill, Long Beach, Ventura, Santa Barbara, Beverly Hills and many more places in Southern California that produced oil, you don't see evidence of that sort of distruction and enviro damage. People have a way of moving on and the past is just history... and no one cares about history. -right?
Visualizing the future is difficult to do. Recall 2001 Space Odyssey? The mem chips that controled HAL 9000 were the size of VHS tapes....I think most views of what our future looks like come from our view of the world today. I mean who could have imagined Alex H. free soloing HD, back in 1977?????
This is what makes it so exciting... to me at least. I want to see what tomorrow really looks like, so I'll stick around as long as I can.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Mar 15, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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So Gary you walked through, one wind farm. Now that is SOLID evidence...
I'll get you a link, OK?
Guyman, I walked through two wind farms. One north of Hwy 138, and the other outside Mojave. I make no claims as to it being solid evidence, just anecdotal evidence. If you got a link, send it along, please.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 15, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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Of course their is no "free lunch". Every human endeavor on this fragile orb has a cost and a down side. Even painting the Mona Lisa required the destruction of pristine minerals and the production of deadly noxious pollution. My point is we have learned to do things better over the millennia. Getting more from less was a concept that visionary Buckminster Fuller espoused. I agree with him and see it as a potential all the time. I never said Signal Hill looked like that today. My reference was to indicate that we have already gone through and recovered from major impacts due to the development of new technologies that become overwhelmingly popular. We have so much more information and awareness available today that it seems probable that developers of new sustainable green energy systems will incorporate most legitimate concerns into their planning. Thus you see Wind Turbine producers working with wildlife experts and land managers to place the farms in better locations and avoid unnecessary bird strikes. I think they are likely engaging in far greater planning than the wing nuts that built that Nuclear reactor on a Californian fault line.
We have a great deal more to gain through developing cleaner more sustainable energy systems than we do by fracking the whole planet. The "Green" economy is an economic juggernaught waiting to create millions of new jobs.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 15, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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Philo... agree with everything but the last sentence.
The government cant direct our technoligy... they are to dumb.
thats why a free market is 10,000 times better than any directed economy.
IMHO
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 15, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
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When faster locomotives became available and the first subways were built a segment of society tried to get them shut down. They were convinced that any human traveling faster than 30 mph would simply suffocate. Woooooo scary.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 15, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
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don't know if it's been mentioned but old idea could be used. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_current_power
p.s i like how supertopo climbers bring their ideas to table! i think we should get a darpa fund.. :)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 15, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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My GF works for a large solar panel distributor. I was shocked and amused to learn that the CEO is a staunch Republican and good friends with Mitt.
Will wonders never cease.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 15, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
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The government cant direct our technoligy... they are to dumb.
thats why a free market is 10,000 times better than any directed economy.
What was that about "free Maket"?
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Mar 15, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
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Guyman, one golden eagle kill is it? I'd think industrial pollution has killed a lot more eagles than that.
And market forces didn't create the rural electrification project.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Mar 15, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
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What philo said!
Anyone that thinks energy companies compete in a free market needs to get their head checked.
FWIW, we would all be speaking German or Japanese if the government hadn't subsidized Grand Coulee Dam. And we will all be speaking Canadian if we don't start subsidizing alternative energy.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 15, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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Free Market, invented all the stuff we have today....except for the atom bomb.
We had a war to win.
Government just gets in the way, it lacks the brains and the creative vision to come up with ideas that will make money. If it dosen't make money
it's not a viable enterprise.
The US gov didn't invent the train, but once it was viable they offered land in exchange for track built.
The first paved roads were built by bicycle clubs....
The TVA was founded long after the first power compaines.
Look- the government has a place in our life, lots of rules and regulations are sometimes nessary for our saftey... Zoning laws are good - one can't just go build a dynamite processing plant at 5th and Main.
But if you think that the over blown government we have today, one that can't balance it's books, is going to come up with the next great "THING" and transform our lives, well that makes me laugh.
But anyway the future is going to be awsome.
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