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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 9, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070709/news_mz1ed9bottom.html
In case the link to this op-ed piece is taken down:
Betraying the Brave
Troops set up to be fall guys at Abu Ghraib
July 9, 2007
When considered in tandem, two recent reports –– based largely on on-the-record interviews with former and current top officials in the Bush administration and the Pentagon –– make plain that in the Abu Ghraib scandal, rank-and-file U.S. soldiers were meant to be fall guys for the surreptitious, possibly illegal decisions of the military's civilian overseers. The evidence is persuasive –– and deeply troubling.
On June 25, The Washington Post laid out in crisp detail the origins of the ““robust interrogation”” tactics adopted by U.S. forces after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. David Addington, counsel to Vice President Dick Cheney, working with Justice Department official John Yoo and then-White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, devised an intentionally ambiguous directive that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
Yoo told the Post, however, that he warned that only CIA interrogators should use such tactics, because abuse was inevitable if their use was allowed in the much-larger military. He was ignored –– and the path to Abu Ghraib was clear.
Meanwhile, also on June 25, The New Yorker printed the first formal interview granted by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, the much-lauded career soldier in charge of the Pentagon's official investigation into the abuse of detaines at Abu Ghraib. Taguba got the job in early 2004 after Army investigators obtained a CD with dozens of depraved images of torture and cruelty inside the Iraq prison.
When he began his investigation, the White House insisted that the abuse was the work of a few rogue soldiers and had not been sanctioned in any way by higher-ups. Taguba soon concluded that was not the case: ““These M.P. troops were not that creative. Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority.””
This is stomach-turning. If the Bush administration decided existing interrogation rules were inadequate for the war on terrorism and announced a list of new tactics it considered acceptable, that is one thing. But for the administration to secretly push the military to adopt an anything-goes attitude and then try to limit the fallout to soldiers is grotesque.
Taguba cites evidence that the senior Army general in charge of Iraq knew of Abu Ghraib torture by summer 2003. He calls then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's claims of ignorance highly unlikely. Why can he now be candid? He was forced, without explanation, to retire earlier this year.
This is a truly sordid affair. The best part of George W. Bush's speeches are often the moments in which he pays eloquent tribute to the bravery of our soldiers. It is impossible to reconcile the president's tributes with the actions recounted above. What was done is indefensible –– and shameful.
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John Moosie
climber
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More evidence of a throughly corrupt and evil administration. These bastards have to go down. Support the troops my #ss. Abuse the troops is more like it.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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so scooter libby is like a soldier, and cannot be left behind on the battle field to suffer unfairly, but of course the soldiers themselves are not really like soldiers, and they can be sold down river to protect the higher-ups?
sweet-
i wanna be a neocon in my next life, that is a sweet existence, anything goes!
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John Moosie
climber
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I think it was Crowley who posted an article about how messed up our system was of promoting weak generals. This seems to me to be an example.
"When he began his investigation, the White House insisted that the abuse was the work of a few rogue soldiers and had not been sanctioned in any way by higher-ups. Taguba soon concluded that was not the case: ““These M.P. troops were not that creative. Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority.””
If he is just now speaking up, then he is a coward and an @ss for not protecting the troops and allowing them to take the fall. If his investigation was hindered, then it really wasn't an investigation into the truth and he should have complained loudly. Thats why you put a general in charge of something like this. So that you insure that the person has the clout and the courage to speak up.
This guy speaks up only after they force him to retire. He is a coward. Here is to hoping that someone has the courage to speak up about these type atrocities. This administration needs to go down. Donald Rumsfeld belongs in prison. So does George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Karl Rove, and Gonzalas. They are all a bunch of lying cowards. They don't support our troops. They abuse them.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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better yet, let's march a few privates out and charge them with everything. kid in the paper this morning for killing an iraqi civilian. imagine that.
proud to be an american.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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yo moose-
why the hell do you think he got the assignment in the 1st place? it's not as if they are ever gonna pick someone who won't play ball, when it comes to investigating themselves!
(see also: 9/11 panel, iraq study group, 'bi-partisan' pre-war intelligence investigation, etc. etc. ad naseum)
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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Without Taguba's comments, this piece would not have been written by the rather conservative editor of my hometown paper. The piece is more credible because of Taguba, a general who was forced out apparently because he was unwilling to toe the party line.
P.S.
I think you guys are underestimating the value of Taguba's willingness to speak out at all, given that he has never done so before, is career military, and is effectively calling Rumsfeld a liar and the Bush administration's story a whitewash.
Here's some more from the Wash. Post on the New Yorker interview with Taguba.
“Taguba also said that Rumsfeld misled Congress when he testified in May 2004 about the abuse investigation, minimizing how much he knew about the incidents.”
“"We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable."”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/16/AR2007061601074.html
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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still sounds a lot like powell (who now says he tried for over 2 hours to talk gw out of invading) or tenet (who says it was them and not him, blah blah blah).
nobody ever wants to take that hard look in the mirror (including your conservative hometown paper, probably).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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civilian oversight?
Civilian Intelligence Agency?
CIA?
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John Moosie
climber
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Matt, you make a good point about investigators who are appointed by this administration. They are yes men.
John, I do value his testimony. I think that the downfall of this administration will come about because of these type situations. A disgruntled former " IN " guy decides he has gotten the shaft and spills the beans.
What I have a problem with is the fact that this guy didn't have the courage to speak up until he was forced out. As I said earlier, Crowley posted a paper written by, I think, someone in the military as to how our generals have become yes-men because of how they are promoted. The system promotes cronies instead of the most qualified.
As Matt points out, this guy was chosen to head the investigation because he was thought to be willing to follow orders and not rock the boat. He proved this by not speaking out until they shafted him. I'm just glad they shafted him so that he would speak out. Otherwise we might not have heard this and those troops doing prison time because of orders would continue to get the shaft. I believe what the troops originally said, the orders came from the top. Now maybe we will have proof.
Not that this country or this congress has the balls to do anything with this. Look at how fast the outrage over Libby died down. This country has a 30 second attention span and the criminals know this.
In the meantime, you are correct. We should be gratefull that this guy decided to speak up. Even if it is a bit late.
Protect our troops... What a bunch of hogwash. Shaft them is more like it as long as the elite are protected.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he tried to go higher, but was ordered not to. No active duty general is going to disobey an order, especially during a war, and risk court martial. Now that he is a civilian he can talk about it. Like John Abizaid and the other former military leaders who have criticized Rumsfeld and Bush, he held his tongue until he was free of the constraints of a military command position.
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John Moosie
climber
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To me the ones in charge hold more responsiblity. It wouldn't be all that hard to find someone young and exploitable and use them to do your dirty work just so you could say your hands were clean. Remember, these people go through a lot of training to follow orders. Was it stupid to take pictures? Yes, these aren't the brightest people. But the leaders are evil and should be prosecuted. If Gonzales ande Rumsfeld are involved in this decision, then they should be in prison.
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crøtch
climber
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LEB,
I think your perspective may be a bit off in this matter. We're talking about 18-year old boys given power over creatures that they've been told are sub-human. This is fraternity house hazing raised to the next level. It's not qualitatively different. Not everyone would do that, but maybe young prison guards are in a way self-selected for some of that capacity.
There's a reason that most people who join the military do so at about that age. Don't underestimate the young male and his response to peer pressure.
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John Moosie
climber
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" David Addington, counsel to Vice President Dick Cheney, working with Justice Department official John Yoo and then-White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, devised an intentionally ambiguous directive that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
"Exactly, how far up the chain of command said knowledge and responsibility should go, I am not quite sure but further up then it went. It is hard for me to believe as John M. suggests that Bush and Rumsfeld had direct knowlege of it and did nothing. For one thing, I don't think either was quite that stupid"
Lois, do you really think that this didn't go to the highest levels considering the above? It isn't just a matter of stupidity. It is a matter of how cold hearted they are. You yourself have said you support more tough action then I do, even when it has been pointed out to be counterproductive. You have sided with Fatty in such things as removing the Ammons who proclaim war even when it has been pointed out to you that this will not work. You call it stupidity. I call it evil. I believe Rumsfeld is fully capable of promoting torture. So is George Bush and definitely Dick Cheney.
Do you really think that Dick wouldn't know what his aids knew? Reread the above quote from the original post.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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"It is hard for me to believe as John M. suggests that Bush and Rumsfeld had direct knowlege of it and did nothing. For one thing, I don't think either was quite that stupid"
Evidently you've never heard Bush speak.
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John Moosie
climber
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"devised an intentionally ambiguous directive that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
This opened pandora's box.
It gave a green light to the CIA to use the techniques used in Abu Ghraib. The CIA then recruited the most easily exploitable to do the dirty work. There is testimony to this affect.
Anyone with half a brain could see the potential consequences of such an order if not outright know that it would precipitate torture. I have little doubt that Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush were aware of this order. In fact I believe they ordered their minions to create it.
Therefore, they were aware that torture would happen and are therefore responible for that torture.
This isn't so much stupid as it is arrogant and evil. They didn't think they would be caught, or if caught they think they wouldn't be held accountable. Pure Hubris.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I'm sure that the senior people in the administration have done their very best to ensure that there's plausible deniability. They all learned the Nixon lesson. And they've adopted an aggressive threat management system as their best defense. But there's so many people involved that sooner or later important ones start to talk, and can't be discredited or stopped.
Their hope now is that they can stall until the public loses interest, and potential prosecutors no longer see political mileage in pursuing it. Some time next summer. The Iran strategy threatens to blow it wide open, though - the threatened resignations of the joint chiefs of staff would do it.
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John Moosie
climber
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"You are more cynical then I. I give people the benefit of the doubt and, moreover, I am a hopeless optimist, as a natural personality trait"
I recall you saying that I was more of an optimist then you.
"John, You are more optimistic than I am"
I think you are more optimistic that our leaders are good and decent people while I am a realist and know that they can be corrupt.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Any of the Abu Ghraib prisoners killed? lose limbs? permanently impaired? Humiliated? Absolutely, Suffered pain? Sure (hopefully not too much).
Fattrad, the crime we are discussing is torture. Dismembering or maiming the the prisoners, if it had occurred, would have been additional crimes.
"It's called war, ever hear of Andersonville?"
Fattrad, the commandant of Andersonville was put on trail and convicted of torture and other atrocities. He was sentenced to death and executed by hanging.
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