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John Moosie
climber
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Is it sadistic to write an order that you know will lead to torture?
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John Moosie
climber
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You can imagine it Lois, but it would not be true. In this case the evidence points to a Cheney aid and Gonzales. I think it would be ignorant to believe that Cheney did not know. And considering how involved Rumsfeld was, it would also be ignornant to think that he didn't know. By his order everything concerning Iraq had to go through his desk. Many many people who worked under him have said this.
This order Involved Iraq, therefore Rumsfeld knew. Probably not about the specifics of the torture, but he was certainly smart enough to know that that order would lead to torture. Therefore he is culpable.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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fatrad, prisoners wre tourtured to death there and elsewere..... really undermines our possition when we behave so poorly. We are just the pot calling the kettle black these days thanks to the creeps in the white house..............
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"I saw a PBS program once called "Punishment." It was worse then I could ever fathom as was a google search thereafter. Unimaginable horrors that haunt me still today, many years later. Given my belief in karma and reincarnation, it helps put certain otherwise inexplicable things in perspective. It is inconceivable to me that persons could perpetrate such evils."
In the America I grew up in, it was inconceivable that such evils would be perpetrated. Americans would commit atrocities now and then, but when discovered it was condemned. In the America I grew up in, the ends did not justify the means, and there were evils to which we did not stoop, even in the face of the Soviet threat. That is what set us apart from the Nazis and the Communists and made us the "good guys."
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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He wasn't ordered not to look to high up, he simply wasn't given the authority. He was specifically to look at the underlings and it was outside of his legal ability to do otherwise.
The story on him in a recent New Yorker is truly amazing.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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I just have this feeling (hope) that the universe is going to re-balance some of these evils in a dramtic way, soon. I don't think this administration will escape this last term before their own sh#t comes back in their faces.
I could be wrong, though. So far they've managed to sh#t multiple times in the sandbox and convince the public they're just fertilizing the plants.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Hanging panties on their heads is torture for this bunch?
"When context is other people’s children
As I write these words just a few miles from the graves I saw, the resulting controversy about whether what the man said was true, or whether his words should have been written if the writer couldn’t verify them, seems precious. There is no imaginary line of credulity that al Qaeda might cross should it go from beheading children to baking them.
No unnamed Iraqi stringer claimed that al Qaeda had taken over Baqubah. Al Qaeda said this through the press. I sit writing these words in Diyala Province just a short drive from where the self-proclaimed leader of al Qaeda in Iraq was killed by a bomb delivered by a US warplane. Al Qaeda: the organization that gleefully bragged about murdering roughly 3,000 people by smashing jets full of civilians into buildings and earth. Al Qaeda in Iraq: who proudly broadcast their penchant for sawing off the heads of living breathing people, and in such a manner as to ensure lots of spurting blood and gurgles of final pain, in some cases with the added flourish of the executioner raising up the severed head and squealing excitedly.
These are the same terrorists I often come face to face with: not on television or in magazines, but on bloodstained streets ablaze with human carnage. I remember the charred corpse of a small Iraqi boy. I remember the wailing Iraqi parents and countless other scenes that I am likely to see again and again. Back in 2005, terrorists here were intentionally attacking children. I shot the photo below on a day when they drove a car bomb through a crowd of children who had run out to American soldiers on patrol.
Many soldiers say this photograph symbolizes this war for them. It certainly has become emblematic for me.
In the more than two years since that awful day in May 2005, I’ve witnessed innumerable instances of the work of terrorists of many stripes. One clear indicator of just how bad a terrorist group is, is when battle-hardened soldiers—and writers like me who travel with them—don’t find it hard to believe a story which purports that al Qaeda had baked a child and set his roasted body out as the main course at a lunch for his parents.
People at home might find it incredible, improbable, even impossible. Yet here in combat with al Qaeda, the idea is no more improbable-sounding than someone saying “The chicken crossed the road.” Maybe the chicken crossed the road. Maybe not. The veterans I’ve been talking with here have no difficulty imagining the chicken crossing the road, or al Qaeda roasting kids. Sickening, yes. Improbable, no."
watch both of the interviews with Iraqis and Yon's take on the MSM's methods.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/second-chances.htm
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Hanging panties on their heads is torture for this bunch?"
In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. “Could you tell us what happened?” Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, “Is it abuse or torture?” At that point, Taguba recalled, “I described a naked detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum, and said, ‘That’s not abuse. That’s torture.’ There was quiet.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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LEB
While we all look down in collective shame on the perps and obsess over the possibility that not enough pennance has been paid.
The other side honors the murderers of children as
shaheed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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LEB writes "I do believe there was a combination of stuff here. There was the sophomoric "panties on head" stuff which really wasn't all that big a deal - albeit incredibly unprofessional and stupid."
Not a big deal if you're a frat guy. A big deal if you are a Muslim. That's like a Chinese guy saying "Not a big deal that we made the Americans kill dogs and eat them, or we had that Christian wipe his ass with Bible pages"
Cultural conditioning makes certain "harmless" things torture for others.
Lois, why give the benefit of the doubt to Rumsfeld and not the soldiers in the field. The torture was practiced all around the world from Afghanistan to Gitmo and Iraq. A conincidence? Why did Gonzalez write memos before the fact detailing how not to get busted for abuse. That's what this whole "enemy combatant" thing is about.
Peace
karl
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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Jul 10, 2007 - 12:21am PT
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The stress and horrors of political prison and interrogation are much worse than what they seem to us out here. What the government spells out as acceptable interrogation methods (and probably believed by most, piece by piece, to be acceptable) are so horrid that the acts and their effects seem directed by the hoofs of Satan himself, not by people. Months or years of extreme cold, hunger, thirst, sleeplessness, heat, isolation, crowding, or just uncertainty; are these torture? Bush knows that Stalin is regarded as a reasonable man and a fine statesman by many today. So Bush may have believed he had quite a ways to go before more than just a few would take notice. I hope that he was wrong. They knew what was going on at Abu Ghraib and is going on for this war, do not fool yourself!
The horrors that have been committed to humans by humans in times of war and revolution, or because of them, have no apparent limit. Death during interrogation has advantages. Falling to the wayside to die while trudging for endless miles in a convoy of one-thousand political slaves was not allowed in Siberia; they beat you with wooden mallets and the pain was so severe, most got up and continued, only to die of starvation or exposure after working a week or two, and the day before the next convoy of slaves arrived. It got the job done.
Just last week I finished the book The Gulag Archipelago by A. Solzhenitsyn. I will never underestimate what acts are possible by a political regime that seeks ultimate power and control.
Sort of unrelated, here is a quote from near the end of the book that I now carry with me to read frequently:
“What about the main thing in life, all its riddles? If you want, I'll spell it out for you right now. Do not pursue what is illusory--property and position: all that is gained at the expense of your nerves decade after decade, and is confiscated in one fell night. Live with a steady superiority over life-- don't be afraid of misfortune, and do not yearn after happiness; it is, after all, all the same: the bitter doesn't last forever, and the sweet never fills the cup to overflowing. It is enough if you don't freeze in the cold, and if thirst and hunger don't claw at your insides. If your back isn't broken, if your feet can walk, if both arms can bend, if both eyes see, and if both ears hear, then whom should you envy? And why? Our envy of others devours us most of all. Rub your eyes and purify your heart--and prize above all else in the world those who love you and who wish you well. Do not hurt them or scold them, and never part from any of them in anger; after all, you simply do not know: it might be your last act before your arrest, and that will be how you are imprinted in their memory!”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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Lois, the reason you don't know about whether Rummy knew or not is because you have looked close enough. So why comment that there's uncertainty? For those who know the details it's plain as day that Rummy was a big part of this.
The rank and file folks who got busted were to blame for sure but grunts follow orders, they are brainwashed to obey. Even the Generals are only coming out of the closet to share this dirt once they retire (or are Retired)
The real answer is to have a REAL investigation and FIND OUT THE TRUTH, rather than give anyone the benefit of the doubt without any cause to do so.
To answer your question, I hope I wouldn't abuse prisoners but I'm not there. I did kill three mice last month
You eat meat Lois?
Peace
Karl
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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"There was the sophomoric "panties on head" stuff which really wasn't all that big a deal - albeit incredibly unprofessional and stupid. There was also far more sinister stuff which got uncovered later on after the sh#t hit the fan."
Problem with that statement is that all of that behavior - the brutal torture as well as the not "all that big a deal" stuff - was sanctioned and encouraged by folks from Rumsfeld on down as an effort to "soften up" the prisoners for interrogation. And it is all against the US Code of Military Justice, and the Geneva Conventions which our Senate has ratified.
One more example of American political and military leaders deciding which laws should apply and which can be ignored. If they don't like the laws, they should change them, through an open debate, in which they can explain and justify their views. Instead they hide behind fear and false patriotism.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:43am PT
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There's little doubt that more senior people knew and approved of what went on, even if it's deniable. In the case of military officers, they should be held to account - ultimately they're responsible. When you command, the buck stops at your desk. If they're pursued, eventually they'll rat out their political masters.
There may also have been a element of racism in the torture policy, in U.S. policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in what happened at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Not to put too fine a point on it, most of the victims were brown, and most of the villains were white, often what is rudely known as white trash. It would be interesting to know if the few white prisoners at Guantanamo were treated better than the others. Also, whether black, Asian and Hispanic members of the U.S. armed forces behaved differently than the whites.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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I have a question for you Lois. If you were a leader at the time this was written, could you forsee the abuse of this type directive?
"that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:08am PT
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Since you recognize that it is vague and you also know that there are sadistic people out there, couldn't you forsee the abuse of this directive?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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Lois, you have said Dick Cheney is intelligent and George Bush is shrewd. So whether they intended this to be abused or not, they are intelligent enough to forsee its abuse and therefore are culpable. That makes them criminal in my opinion.
Especially when you know that young, easily swayed people will be responsible for determining what fell short of "the most cruel forms of torture".
This is a blantant disregard for decency and is criminal. If they are not aware of the dangers, then they are just stupid. Which you have already said that they are not. Therefore they are criminal.
Why do you think we have clearly defined rules of behavior in our prisons? Is it perhaps because we are clearly aware that power can be abused? I think so and anyone who thinks Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are not intelligent enough to be aware of this is in my opinion blind. The only reason to write something so blatantly ambiguous is so that torture can be done. Otherwise they would have clearly defined what was okay.
That, or they are just stupid and you have already stated that they are not.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:59am PT
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Hahahaha....and you call yourself an optimist.
I think we have a duty as free Americans to hold these criminals accountable for thier actions. Even if doing that is hard. I think allowing them to skate out of here sends the wrong message to future politicians and the wrong message to the rest of the world.
Lois, sometimes you have to stand up for things, even when it is hard or even nearly impossible. If we don't hold these people responsible for their actions, then how can we expect any other country to hold its citizens responsible?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 03:02am PT
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I wrote
"The rank and file folks who got busted were to blame for sure but grunts follow orders, they are brainwashed to obey. "
Lois Says I'm defending them. No way, just telling it like it is. Sure, the Nazis who threw Jews in the gas chambers were to blame too but doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on Hitler and his top brass.
Fact is, if this kind of behavior wasn't tolerated, encouraged, winked at and so on, it would have been a rare case, but it happened everywhere and former military are now coming out and telling their stories with shame.
Mice are disease filled vermin Lois. I kill em in my house, everywhere else they can live. afterwards, I throw em out the front door and they don't last long before somebody snacks on em. If they stayed out of my house, that's what would happen anyway. Now Pigs are highly intelligent and you know it, smarter than dogs even! i guess this all boil down to our personal prejudices over what to kill, how and why.
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:09am PT
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TGB no one ever said that Al Qida was not Evil. The problem arises when we become evil in our fight against them. Once you lose the moral high ground its mighty hard to get it back......
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