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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 9, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070709/news_mz1ed9bottom.html
In case the link to this op-ed piece is taken down:
Betraying the Brave
Troops set up to be fall guys at Abu Ghraib
July 9, 2007
When considered in tandem, two recent reports –– based largely on on-the-record interviews with former and current top officials in the Bush administration and the Pentagon –– make plain that in the Abu Ghraib scandal, rank-and-file U.S. soldiers were meant to be fall guys for the surreptitious, possibly illegal decisions of the military's civilian overseers. The evidence is persuasive –– and deeply troubling.
On June 25, The Washington Post laid out in crisp detail the origins of the ““robust interrogation”” tactics adopted by U.S. forces after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. David Addington, counsel to Vice President Dick Cheney, working with Justice Department official John Yoo and then-White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, devised an intentionally ambiguous directive that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
Yoo told the Post, however, that he warned that only CIA interrogators should use such tactics, because abuse was inevitable if their use was allowed in the much-larger military. He was ignored –– and the path to Abu Ghraib was clear.
Meanwhile, also on June 25, The New Yorker printed the first formal interview granted by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, the much-lauded career soldier in charge of the Pentagon's official investigation into the abuse of detaines at Abu Ghraib. Taguba got the job in early 2004 after Army investigators obtained a CD with dozens of depraved images of torture and cruelty inside the Iraq prison.
When he began his investigation, the White House insisted that the abuse was the work of a few rogue soldiers and had not been sanctioned in any way by higher-ups. Taguba soon concluded that was not the case: ““These M.P. troops were not that creative. Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority.””
This is stomach-turning. If the Bush administration decided existing interrogation rules were inadequate for the war on terrorism and announced a list of new tactics it considered acceptable, that is one thing. But for the administration to secretly push the military to adopt an anything-goes attitude and then try to limit the fallout to soldiers is grotesque.
Taguba cites evidence that the senior Army general in charge of Iraq knew of Abu Ghraib torture by summer 2003. He calls then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's claims of ignorance highly unlikely. Why can he now be candid? He was forced, without explanation, to retire earlier this year.
This is a truly sordid affair. The best part of George W. Bush's speeches are often the moments in which he pays eloquent tribute to the bravery of our soldiers. It is impossible to reconcile the president's tributes with the actions recounted above. What was done is indefensible –– and shameful.
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John Moosie
climber
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More evidence of a throughly corrupt and evil administration. These bastards have to go down. Support the troops my #ss. Abuse the troops is more like it.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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so scooter libby is like a soldier, and cannot be left behind on the battle field to suffer unfairly, but of course the soldiers themselves are not really like soldiers, and they can be sold down river to protect the higher-ups?
sweet-
i wanna be a neocon in my next life, that is a sweet existence, anything goes!
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John Moosie
climber
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I think it was Crowley who posted an article about how messed up our system was of promoting weak generals. This seems to me to be an example.
"When he began his investigation, the White House insisted that the abuse was the work of a few rogue soldiers and had not been sanctioned in any way by higher-ups. Taguba soon concluded that was not the case: ““These M.P. troops were not that creative. Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority.””
If he is just now speaking up, then he is a coward and an @ss for not protecting the troops and allowing them to take the fall. If his investigation was hindered, then it really wasn't an investigation into the truth and he should have complained loudly. Thats why you put a general in charge of something like this. So that you insure that the person has the clout and the courage to speak up.
This guy speaks up only after they force him to retire. He is a coward. Here is to hoping that someone has the courage to speak up about these type atrocities. This administration needs to go down. Donald Rumsfeld belongs in prison. So does George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Karl Rove, and Gonzalas. They are all a bunch of lying cowards. They don't support our troops. They abuse them.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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better yet, let's march a few privates out and charge them with everything. kid in the paper this morning for killing an iraqi civilian. imagine that.
proud to be an american.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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yo moose-
why the hell do you think he got the assignment in the 1st place? it's not as if they are ever gonna pick someone who won't play ball, when it comes to investigating themselves!
(see also: 9/11 panel, iraq study group, 'bi-partisan' pre-war intelligence investigation, etc. etc. ad naseum)
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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Without Taguba's comments, this piece would not have been written by the rather conservative editor of my hometown paper. The piece is more credible because of Taguba, a general who was forced out apparently because he was unwilling to toe the party line.
P.S.
I think you guys are underestimating the value of Taguba's willingness to speak out at all, given that he has never done so before, is career military, and is effectively calling Rumsfeld a liar and the Bush administration's story a whitewash.
Here's some more from the Wash. Post on the New Yorker interview with Taguba.
“Taguba also said that Rumsfeld misled Congress when he testified in May 2004 about the abuse investigation, minimizing how much he knew about the incidents.”
“"We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable."”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/16/AR2007061601074.html
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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still sounds a lot like powell (who now says he tried for over 2 hours to talk gw out of invading) or tenet (who says it was them and not him, blah blah blah).
nobody ever wants to take that hard look in the mirror (including your conservative hometown paper, probably).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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civilian oversight?
Civilian Intelligence Agency?
CIA?
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John Moosie
climber
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Matt, you make a good point about investigators who are appointed by this administration. They are yes men.
John, I do value his testimony. I think that the downfall of this administration will come about because of these type situations. A disgruntled former " IN " guy decides he has gotten the shaft and spills the beans.
What I have a problem with is the fact that this guy didn't have the courage to speak up until he was forced out. As I said earlier, Crowley posted a paper written by, I think, someone in the military as to how our generals have become yes-men because of how they are promoted. The system promotes cronies instead of the most qualified.
As Matt points out, this guy was chosen to head the investigation because he was thought to be willing to follow orders and not rock the boat. He proved this by not speaking out until they shafted him. I'm just glad they shafted him so that he would speak out. Otherwise we might not have heard this and those troops doing prison time because of orders would continue to get the shaft. I believe what the troops originally said, the orders came from the top. Now maybe we will have proof.
Not that this country or this congress has the balls to do anything with this. Look at how fast the outrage over Libby died down. This country has a 30 second attention span and the criminals know this.
In the meantime, you are correct. We should be gratefull that this guy decided to speak up. Even if it is a bit late.
Protect our troops... What a bunch of hogwash. Shaft them is more like it as long as the elite are protected.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he tried to go higher, but was ordered not to. No active duty general is going to disobey an order, especially during a war, and risk court martial. Now that he is a civilian he can talk about it. Like John Abizaid and the other former military leaders who have criticized Rumsfeld and Bush, he held his tongue until he was free of the constraints of a military command position.
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John Moosie
climber
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To me the ones in charge hold more responsiblity. It wouldn't be all that hard to find someone young and exploitable and use them to do your dirty work just so you could say your hands were clean. Remember, these people go through a lot of training to follow orders. Was it stupid to take pictures? Yes, these aren't the brightest people. But the leaders are evil and should be prosecuted. If Gonzales ande Rumsfeld are involved in this decision, then they should be in prison.
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crøtch
climber
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LEB,
I think your perspective may be a bit off in this matter. We're talking about 18-year old boys given power over creatures that they've been told are sub-human. This is fraternity house hazing raised to the next level. It's not qualitatively different. Not everyone would do that, but maybe young prison guards are in a way self-selected for some of that capacity.
There's a reason that most people who join the military do so at about that age. Don't underestimate the young male and his response to peer pressure.
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John Moosie
climber
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" David Addington, counsel to Vice President Dick Cheney, working with Justice Department official John Yoo and then-White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, devised an intentionally ambiguous directive that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
"Exactly, how far up the chain of command said knowledge and responsibility should go, I am not quite sure but further up then it went. It is hard for me to believe as John M. suggests that Bush and Rumsfeld had direct knowlege of it and did nothing. For one thing, I don't think either was quite that stupid"
Lois, do you really think that this didn't go to the highest levels considering the above? It isn't just a matter of stupidity. It is a matter of how cold hearted they are. You yourself have said you support more tough action then I do, even when it has been pointed out to be counterproductive. You have sided with Fatty in such things as removing the Ammons who proclaim war even when it has been pointed out to you that this will not work. You call it stupidity. I call it evil. I believe Rumsfeld is fully capable of promoting torture. So is George Bush and definitely Dick Cheney.
Do you really think that Dick wouldn't know what his aids knew? Reread the above quote from the original post.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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"It is hard for me to believe as John M. suggests that Bush and Rumsfeld had direct knowlege of it and did nothing. For one thing, I don't think either was quite that stupid"
Evidently you've never heard Bush speak.
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John Moosie
climber
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"devised an intentionally ambiguous directive that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
This opened pandora's box.
It gave a green light to the CIA to use the techniques used in Abu Ghraib. The CIA then recruited the most easily exploitable to do the dirty work. There is testimony to this affect.
Anyone with half a brain could see the potential consequences of such an order if not outright know that it would precipitate torture. I have little doubt that Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush were aware of this order. In fact I believe they ordered their minions to create it.
Therefore, they were aware that torture would happen and are therefore responible for that torture.
This isn't so much stupid as it is arrogant and evil. They didn't think they would be caught, or if caught they think they wouldn't be held accountable. Pure Hubris.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I'm sure that the senior people in the administration have done their very best to ensure that there's plausible deniability. They all learned the Nixon lesson. And they've adopted an aggressive threat management system as their best defense. But there's so many people involved that sooner or later important ones start to talk, and can't be discredited or stopped.
Their hope now is that they can stall until the public loses interest, and potential prosecutors no longer see political mileage in pursuing it. Some time next summer. The Iran strategy threatens to blow it wide open, though - the threatened resignations of the joint chiefs of staff would do it.
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John Moosie
climber
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"You are more cynical then I. I give people the benefit of the doubt and, moreover, I am a hopeless optimist, as a natural personality trait"
I recall you saying that I was more of an optimist then you.
"John, You are more optimistic than I am"
I think you are more optimistic that our leaders are good and decent people while I am a realist and know that they can be corrupt.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Any of the Abu Ghraib prisoners killed? lose limbs? permanently impaired? Humiliated? Absolutely, Suffered pain? Sure (hopefully not too much).
Fattrad, the crime we are discussing is torture. Dismembering or maiming the the prisoners, if it had occurred, would have been additional crimes.
"It's called war, ever hear of Andersonville?"
Fattrad, the commandant of Andersonville was put on trail and convicted of torture and other atrocities. He was sentenced to death and executed by hanging.
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John Moosie
climber
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Is it sadistic to write an order that you know will lead to torture?
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John Moosie
climber
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You can imagine it Lois, but it would not be true. In this case the evidence points to a Cheney aid and Gonzales. I think it would be ignorant to believe that Cheney did not know. And considering how involved Rumsfeld was, it would also be ignornant to think that he didn't know. By his order everything concerning Iraq had to go through his desk. Many many people who worked under him have said this.
This order Involved Iraq, therefore Rumsfeld knew. Probably not about the specifics of the torture, but he was certainly smart enough to know that that order would lead to torture. Therefore he is culpable.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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fatrad, prisoners wre tourtured to death there and elsewere..... really undermines our possition when we behave so poorly. We are just the pot calling the kettle black these days thanks to the creeps in the white house..............
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"I saw a PBS program once called "Punishment." It was worse then I could ever fathom as was a google search thereafter. Unimaginable horrors that haunt me still today, many years later. Given my belief in karma and reincarnation, it helps put certain otherwise inexplicable things in perspective. It is inconceivable to me that persons could perpetrate such evils."
In the America I grew up in, it was inconceivable that such evils would be perpetrated. Americans would commit atrocities now and then, but when discovered it was condemned. In the America I grew up in, the ends did not justify the means, and there were evils to which we did not stoop, even in the face of the Soviet threat. That is what set us apart from the Nazis and the Communists and made us the "good guys."
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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He wasn't ordered not to look to high up, he simply wasn't given the authority. He was specifically to look at the underlings and it was outside of his legal ability to do otherwise.
The story on him in a recent New Yorker is truly amazing.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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I just have this feeling (hope) that the universe is going to re-balance some of these evils in a dramtic way, soon. I don't think this administration will escape this last term before their own sh#t comes back in their faces.
I could be wrong, though. So far they've managed to sh#t multiple times in the sandbox and convince the public they're just fertilizing the plants.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Hanging panties on their heads is torture for this bunch?
"When context is other people’s children
As I write these words just a few miles from the graves I saw, the resulting controversy about whether what the man said was true, or whether his words should have been written if the writer couldn’t verify them, seems precious. There is no imaginary line of credulity that al Qaeda might cross should it go from beheading children to baking them.
No unnamed Iraqi stringer claimed that al Qaeda had taken over Baqubah. Al Qaeda said this through the press. I sit writing these words in Diyala Province just a short drive from where the self-proclaimed leader of al Qaeda in Iraq was killed by a bomb delivered by a US warplane. Al Qaeda: the organization that gleefully bragged about murdering roughly 3,000 people by smashing jets full of civilians into buildings and earth. Al Qaeda in Iraq: who proudly broadcast their penchant for sawing off the heads of living breathing people, and in such a manner as to ensure lots of spurting blood and gurgles of final pain, in some cases with the added flourish of the executioner raising up the severed head and squealing excitedly.
These are the same terrorists I often come face to face with: not on television or in magazines, but on bloodstained streets ablaze with human carnage. I remember the charred corpse of a small Iraqi boy. I remember the wailing Iraqi parents and countless other scenes that I am likely to see again and again. Back in 2005, terrorists here were intentionally attacking children. I shot the photo below on a day when they drove a car bomb through a crowd of children who had run out to American soldiers on patrol.
Many soldiers say this photograph symbolizes this war for them. It certainly has become emblematic for me.
In the more than two years since that awful day in May 2005, I’ve witnessed innumerable instances of the work of terrorists of many stripes. One clear indicator of just how bad a terrorist group is, is when battle-hardened soldiers—and writers like me who travel with them—don’t find it hard to believe a story which purports that al Qaeda had baked a child and set his roasted body out as the main course at a lunch for his parents.
People at home might find it incredible, improbable, even impossible. Yet here in combat with al Qaeda, the idea is no more improbable-sounding than someone saying “The chicken crossed the road.” Maybe the chicken crossed the road. Maybe not. The veterans I’ve been talking with here have no difficulty imagining the chicken crossing the road, or al Qaeda roasting kids. Sickening, yes. Improbable, no."
watch both of the interviews with Iraqis and Yon's take on the MSM's methods.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/second-chances.htm
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Hanging panties on their heads is torture for this bunch?"
In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. “Could you tell us what happened?” Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, “Is it abuse or torture?” At that point, Taguba recalled, “I described a naked detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum, and said, ‘That’s not abuse. That’s torture.’ There was quiet.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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LEB
While we all look down in collective shame on the perps and obsess over the possibility that not enough pennance has been paid.
The other side honors the murderers of children as
shaheed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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LEB writes "I do believe there was a combination of stuff here. There was the sophomoric "panties on head" stuff which really wasn't all that big a deal - albeit incredibly unprofessional and stupid."
Not a big deal if you're a frat guy. A big deal if you are a Muslim. That's like a Chinese guy saying "Not a big deal that we made the Americans kill dogs and eat them, or we had that Christian wipe his ass with Bible pages"
Cultural conditioning makes certain "harmless" things torture for others.
Lois, why give the benefit of the doubt to Rumsfeld and not the soldiers in the field. The torture was practiced all around the world from Afghanistan to Gitmo and Iraq. A conincidence? Why did Gonzalez write memos before the fact detailing how not to get busted for abuse. That's what this whole "enemy combatant" thing is about.
Peace
karl
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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Jul 10, 2007 - 12:21am PT
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The stress and horrors of political prison and interrogation are much worse than what they seem to us out here. What the government spells out as acceptable interrogation methods (and probably believed by most, piece by piece, to be acceptable) are so horrid that the acts and their effects seem directed by the hoofs of Satan himself, not by people. Months or years of extreme cold, hunger, thirst, sleeplessness, heat, isolation, crowding, or just uncertainty; are these torture? Bush knows that Stalin is regarded as a reasonable man and a fine statesman by many today. So Bush may have believed he had quite a ways to go before more than just a few would take notice. I hope that he was wrong. They knew what was going on at Abu Ghraib and is going on for this war, do not fool yourself!
The horrors that have been committed to humans by humans in times of war and revolution, or because of them, have no apparent limit. Death during interrogation has advantages. Falling to the wayside to die while trudging for endless miles in a convoy of one-thousand political slaves was not allowed in Siberia; they beat you with wooden mallets and the pain was so severe, most got up and continued, only to die of starvation or exposure after working a week or two, and the day before the next convoy of slaves arrived. It got the job done.
Just last week I finished the book The Gulag Archipelago by A. Solzhenitsyn. I will never underestimate what acts are possible by a political regime that seeks ultimate power and control.
Sort of unrelated, here is a quote from near the end of the book that I now carry with me to read frequently:
“What about the main thing in life, all its riddles? If you want, I'll spell it out for you right now. Do not pursue what is illusory--property and position: all that is gained at the expense of your nerves decade after decade, and is confiscated in one fell night. Live with a steady superiority over life-- don't be afraid of misfortune, and do not yearn after happiness; it is, after all, all the same: the bitter doesn't last forever, and the sweet never fills the cup to overflowing. It is enough if you don't freeze in the cold, and if thirst and hunger don't claw at your insides. If your back isn't broken, if your feet can walk, if both arms can bend, if both eyes see, and if both ears hear, then whom should you envy? And why? Our envy of others devours us most of all. Rub your eyes and purify your heart--and prize above all else in the world those who love you and who wish you well. Do not hurt them or scold them, and never part from any of them in anger; after all, you simply do not know: it might be your last act before your arrest, and that will be how you are imprinted in their memory!”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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Lois, the reason you don't know about whether Rummy knew or not is because you have looked close enough. So why comment that there's uncertainty? For those who know the details it's plain as day that Rummy was a big part of this.
The rank and file folks who got busted were to blame for sure but grunts follow orders, they are brainwashed to obey. Even the Generals are only coming out of the closet to share this dirt once they retire (or are Retired)
The real answer is to have a REAL investigation and FIND OUT THE TRUTH, rather than give anyone the benefit of the doubt without any cause to do so.
To answer your question, I hope I wouldn't abuse prisoners but I'm not there. I did kill three mice last month
You eat meat Lois?
Peace
Karl
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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"There was the sophomoric "panties on head" stuff which really wasn't all that big a deal - albeit incredibly unprofessional and stupid. There was also far more sinister stuff which got uncovered later on after the sh#t hit the fan."
Problem with that statement is that all of that behavior - the brutal torture as well as the not "all that big a deal" stuff - was sanctioned and encouraged by folks from Rumsfeld on down as an effort to "soften up" the prisoners for interrogation. And it is all against the US Code of Military Justice, and the Geneva Conventions which our Senate has ratified.
One more example of American political and military leaders deciding which laws should apply and which can be ignored. If they don't like the laws, they should change them, through an open debate, in which they can explain and justify their views. Instead they hide behind fear and false patriotism.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:43am PT
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There's little doubt that more senior people knew and approved of what went on, even if it's deniable. In the case of military officers, they should be held to account - ultimately they're responsible. When you command, the buck stops at your desk. If they're pursued, eventually they'll rat out their political masters.
There may also have been a element of racism in the torture policy, in U.S. policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in what happened at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Not to put too fine a point on it, most of the victims were brown, and most of the villains were white, often what is rudely known as white trash. It would be interesting to know if the few white prisoners at Guantanamo were treated better than the others. Also, whether black, Asian and Hispanic members of the U.S. armed forces behaved differently than the whites.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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I have a question for you Lois. If you were a leader at the time this was written, could you forsee the abuse of this type directive?
"that said detainees would be treated ““humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with”” the Geneva Conventions. When ““necessity”” called, however, acceptable techniques were defined as including all but ““the worst forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.””
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:08am PT
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Since you recognize that it is vague and you also know that there are sadistic people out there, couldn't you forsee the abuse of this directive?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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Lois, you have said Dick Cheney is intelligent and George Bush is shrewd. So whether they intended this to be abused or not, they are intelligent enough to forsee its abuse and therefore are culpable. That makes them criminal in my opinion.
Especially when you know that young, easily swayed people will be responsible for determining what fell short of "the most cruel forms of torture".
This is a blantant disregard for decency and is criminal. If they are not aware of the dangers, then they are just stupid. Which you have already said that they are not. Therefore they are criminal.
Why do you think we have clearly defined rules of behavior in our prisons? Is it perhaps because we are clearly aware that power can be abused? I think so and anyone who thinks Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are not intelligent enough to be aware of this is in my opinion blind. The only reason to write something so blatantly ambiguous is so that torture can be done. Otherwise they would have clearly defined what was okay.
That, or they are just stupid and you have already stated that they are not.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:59am PT
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Hahahaha....and you call yourself an optimist.
I think we have a duty as free Americans to hold these criminals accountable for thier actions. Even if doing that is hard. I think allowing them to skate out of here sends the wrong message to future politicians and the wrong message to the rest of the world.
Lois, sometimes you have to stand up for things, even when it is hard or even nearly impossible. If we don't hold these people responsible for their actions, then how can we expect any other country to hold its citizens responsible?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 03:02am PT
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I wrote
"The rank and file folks who got busted were to blame for sure but grunts follow orders, they are brainwashed to obey. "
Lois Says I'm defending them. No way, just telling it like it is. Sure, the Nazis who threw Jews in the gas chambers were to blame too but doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on Hitler and his top brass.
Fact is, if this kind of behavior wasn't tolerated, encouraged, winked at and so on, it would have been a rare case, but it happened everywhere and former military are now coming out and telling their stories with shame.
Mice are disease filled vermin Lois. I kill em in my house, everywhere else they can live. afterwards, I throw em out the front door and they don't last long before somebody snacks on em. If they stayed out of my house, that's what would happen anyway. Now Pigs are highly intelligent and you know it, smarter than dogs even! i guess this all boil down to our personal prejudices over what to kill, how and why.
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:09am PT
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TGB no one ever said that Al Qida was not Evil. The problem arises when we become evil in our fight against them. Once you lose the moral high ground its mighty hard to get it back......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2007 - 09:04am PT
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LEB wrote
"Now why did he and his fellow "grunts" get caught and nailed while his complicit bosses did not. It is because in addition to being dishonorable, he was also stupid; they were not. It is that simple."
Note the title of this thread. "Abu Ghraib --Taguba Ordered Not to Look Too High Up" That's why they didn't get caught.
I'm glad that you seem to recant your earlier position that you didn't care if potential terrorists and even a few accidental innocent people were abused in responding to the problem of terrorism. If you were advocating it back that, it's little surprise that the folks in the military, those trained to kill and observing their fellow solidiers being hurt and killed, agreed with you and followed through. I blame them but more so the liars who sent them there.
Anywhere in the world, you can train and empower grunt soliders to kill and torture if their superiors condone it. That's the way it is.
PEace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 11, 2007 - 09:37am PT
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Fatrad, Anyone who can look at those images from Abu and lighty pass them off as locker room frat boy antics is a sick, sick, perverted, disturbed individual..
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:00am PT
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Lois, you seem to be ready to go right along with letting Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney get away with their crimes because there's "not the votes." Why not investigate openly and expose those crimes to your fellow Lois'es out there and see if the votes change?
Peace
Karl
PS Folks who voted for Bush who now realize they made a mistake are not off the hook. You need to "repent" for that vote by letting congress know that you want these guys out before they do more damage. Otherwise you're responsible for the mess we're in. The reason "the votes aren't there" is because the GOP folks in congress feel that their GOP following doesn't want Bush outed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 12, 2007 - 09:07am PT
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TGT You dont have to be perfect but you do have to keep your honor. There was absolutly nothing honorable about Abu G. If you don't have a higher moral standard than the other guy who is to say that they are the greater evil?
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:31pm PT
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more loisification
gacias, pero no gracias
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
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Lois, you cold hearted ignorant bitch,
What led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib? Could it be that directive this thread is about?
Who wrote and approved of that directive?
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
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lois you ignorant slut
(gosh that feels really good)
you don't see me (or anyone else) posting 40+ times in an 80 post thread.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 12, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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lois, you aging delusional bitch.
please don't mistake my insulting you for our having a conversation.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
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It is not so much an issue of who is the "greater" evil but, perhaps ,more that we, the US, should not be an evil, at all.
I gotta give you Props, LEB. You are almost sounding like our Founder Tom "bring the" Paine.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:03pm PT
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Hey 426,
What you say about LEB would be great if only she practiced what she preaches. But she doesn't and this is what I call her on. She is not interested in keeping high ideals for America. She proves this by not being willing to try and understand the root of the evil and remove it. Case in point. Abu Ghraib. She is happy to get the little guy as who isn't, but she is willing to ignore the root of the problem which originates in the directive written by Cheney's minions. Therefore the problem can persist.
Just as the problem with George and friends can persist because of attitudes like hers in which she absolves herself of responsibilty by saying she votes and that voting is enough. It most certainly isn't enough. Especially when you have criminals in place.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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moosie, mebbe yer right but then I have to ask "what have I done for my country", first. No sycophantism wuz intended...
I could have mentioned "death over fingernail" (pulling)-it's easy to catch 'em doing 'wrong', a bit more of a challenge to catch 'em "doing rIgHt"...
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
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I have only asked her to do what I have and am willing to do. Nothing more.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Jul 13, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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Hey Crowley,
What happened to the Rummy thread? Where'd it go? Thought about a comment, came back and - Wheww... gone!
CJR
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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Hahahaha LOL Crowley
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2007 - 01:02am PT
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Good night Lois
And don't over work please ...... you're a good soul.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 13, 2007 - 01:10am PT
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Silly Lois, honest, it's not that you don't agree with us that's frustrating! You keep proving it over and over that you don't pay attention
Lois, You'll want to read this. American "Grunts" are speaking out against the conduct of the war and the innocent victims
from
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/12/2461/
It is an axiom of American political life that the actions of the US military are beyond criticism. Democrats and Republicans praise the men and women in uniform at every turn. Apart from the odd bad apple at Abu Ghraib, the US military in Iraq is deemed to be doing a heroic job under trying circumstances.
That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.
The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. “It’s not individual atrocity,” Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. “It’s the fact that the entire war is an atrocity.”
A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.
This view is echoed in Washington, where increasing numbers of Democrats and Republicans are openly calling for an early withdrawal from Iraq. And the Iraq quagmire has pushed President George Bush’s poll ratings to an all-time low.
Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation’s investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.
Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behavior born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.
“It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around,” said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.
“Every good cop carries a throwaway,” Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.
There were also deaths caused by the reckless behavior of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. “Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean… your order is that you never stop.”
The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.
Sgt John Bruhns, 29, of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Armored Division, described a typical raid. “You want to catch them off guard,” he explained. “You want to catch them in their sleep … You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall… Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds. You’ll ask ‘Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda?’
“Normally they’ll say no, because that’s normally the truth,” Sgt Bruhns said. “So you’ll take his sofa cushions and dump them. You’ll open up his closet and you’ll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it.” And at the end, if the soldiers don’t find anything, they depart with a “Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening”.
Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. “The mentality of my squad leader was like, ‘Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don’t have to kill them back in Colorado’,” she said. “He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist.”
‘It would always happen. We always got the wrong house…’
“People would make jokes about it, even before we’d go into a raid, like, ‘Oh f*#k, we’re gonna get the wrong house’. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house.”
Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003
“I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn’t really know what else to do.”
Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005
“We were approaching this one house… and we’re approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it’s doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it… So I see this dog - I’m a huge animal lover… this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he’s running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I’m at a loss for words.”
Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004
“I’ll tell you the point where I really turned… [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg… An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me… like asking me why. You know, ‘Why do I have a bullet in my leg?’… I was just like, ‘This is, this is it. This is ridiculous’.”
Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003
“I open a bag and I’m trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, ‘Get that f*#k haji out of here,’… our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, ‘You know, he looks fine, he’s gonna be all right,’ and walks back… kind of like, ‘Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic’. So I’m standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy.”
Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004
‘Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find…’
“Here’s some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he’s going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you’ve ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds…”
Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004
“Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat.”
Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003
“I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, ‘A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi… You know, so what?’… [Only when we got home] in… meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then.”
Specialist Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry. In Baquba for a year beginning February 2004
“[The photo] was very graphic… They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got a spoon. He’s reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and smiling.”
Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004
"We were searching this rural farmhouse and this woman comes out and starts talking our ear off about how we weren't going to force her to think like "one of us" no matter what. She was really annoying and whatever we told her, she did something else. Finally I started to strangle her but the other guys pulled me off before she lost consciousness. I'm really sorry I didn't get to finish wringing her neck. I still remember her name. Lowiz or something. She was supposed to "one our side" A nurse or something"
Specialist Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, 320th Military Police Company. Deployed to Talil air base for one year beginning April 2003
“The car was approaching what was in my opinion a very poorly marked checkpoint… and probably didn’t even see the soldiers… The guys got spooked and decided it was a possible threat, so they shot up the car. And they [the bodies] literally sat in the car for the next three days while we drove by them.
Sergeant Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. One-year from February 2004
“The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population…”
Sergeant Camilo Mejía, 31, from Miami, National Guardsman, 1-124 Infantry Battalion, 53rd Infantry Brigade. Six-month tour beginning April 2003
“I just remember thinking, ‘I just brought terror to someone under the American flag’.”
Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004
“A lot of guys really supported that whole concept that if they don’t speak English and they have darker skin, they’re not as human as us, so we can do what we want.”
Specialist Josh Middleton, 23, of New York City, 2nd Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division. Four-month tour in Baghdad and Mosul beginning December 2004
“I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned.”
Sergeant Ben Flanders, 28, National Guardsman from Concord, New Hampshire, 172nd Mountain Infantry. In Balad for 11 months beginning March 2004
The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness, by Chris Hedges and Laila al-Arian, appears in the 30 July issue of The Nation
peace
Karl
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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Jul 13, 2007 - 01:50am PT
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Okay Crowley,
You aint gonna agree, but Engelhardt is wrong in some ways. (And by the way, such long essays are hard to respond to smack-dab since the author probably took three weeks or more to compose, research and edit it).
Maybe the DoD is expanding influence worldwide, but back here, stateside, DoD is still downsizing since the end of the Cold War. Heard of BRAC? No? Look it up. They probably have a good class on it at Cal State Monterey (former site of Fort Ord).
Meanwhile, Congress passed an act (1993?) that required Congressional approval for any DoD land withdrawal (like BLM land out in the middle of “nowhere”) of more than 5,000 acres. Less than 5,000 acres goes to Secretary of Defense (Formerly Rummy). I know of none that were significant under Rummy (a hundred acres here and there?). Most actions were “disposals” where DoD gets rid of land they own that they no longer need. Dixon Radio Transmission Facility near you is one. Skaggs Island is another. Fact is, these old, unneeded facilities and land areas are liabilities for clean up and maintenance, not assets to DoD since they have no useful value to them; if they needed them for their mission, they would certainly try to keep them. “Get rid of them” seems to be the policy, not “grab what you can.” I have many other examples of these, but I will stop here.
Interestingly, I heard a Head Honcho of the Marine Corps give a talk on environmental stewardship; they guy was a general who took a lot of heat from upstairs for his pro-environmental position. Instead of the normal plug, he engaged the Nature Conservancy and other such groups, bringing together mutual interests so that lands controlled and needed by the Marines would have protection from “encroachment.” Normally we think of that as putting your foot over the boundary, but this is the march of LA and humanization to the boundary of training areas where maybe there is a lot of noise, etc. TNC and other land groups focused on the opportunity to join with the Marines to get land around the Base for habitat preservation. A reasonable swap? I think so. Too many details to talk of here, just better natural resources management, and “blessed” by the OSD (Office of the Secretary).
That’s not what Engelhardt implied and what he implied is distorted. I didn’t dig into the weeds of his essay, but I quickly determined he was distorting the facts to make a point, so on I went with something more substantive (like dinner). I agree with his consensus of a US trend toward world domination; however, what is new there? Old news.
As for Rummy, I have no idea what this article has to do with him. He did not have his hand in too many land acquisition projects as far as I know. Perhaps he blew it in other areas, but land grabs by DoD were not his hallmark, were they? Oddly, Don Rummy is a unique person for me. Just like Reagan (and beloved Merle), I disagreed with everything he did and stood by, but as a person, I somehow like him and would be glad if he was my neighbor. I fail to have a good explanation for this feeling since so many people I respect and admire regard the man as evil. But, one does not have to agree with someone to like them as a person.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 13, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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"I agree with his consensus of a US trend toward world domination; however, what is new there? Old news. "
I would bet that the average American has no idea of the extent of our imperialistic efforts. So not old news in my opinion. I would bet that they weren't even aware of the extent of the bases we are building in Iraq.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Jul 13, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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John, You and me both. I'll bet the behemoth is so huge that all Americans would puke if they knew what's really going on.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 14, 2007 - 04:26pm PT
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Official published policy!
"MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE - IRAQ
BAGHDAD, IRAQ
APO AE 09342-1400
10 May 2007
Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen serving in Multi-National Force-Iraq:
Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we - not our enemies - occupy the moral high ground. This strategy has shown results in recent months. Al Qaeda's indiscriminate attacks, for example, have finally started to turn a substantial proportion of the Iraqi population against it.
In view of this, I was concerned by the results of a recently released survey conducted last fall in Iraq that revealed an apparent unwillingness on the part of some US personnel to report illegal actions taken by fellow members of their units. The study also indicated that a small percentage of those surveyed may have mistreated noncombatants. This survey should spur reflection on our conduct in combat.
I fully appreciate the emotions that one experiences in Iraq. I also know firsthand the bonds between members of the "brotherhood of the close fight." Seeing a fellow trooper killed by a barbaric enemy can spark frustration, anger, and a desire for immediate revenge. As hard as it might be, however, we must not let these emotions lead us - or our comrades in arms - to commit hasty, illegal actions. In the event that we witness or hear of such actions, we must not let our bonds prevent us from speaking up.
Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone "talk;" however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact, our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.
We are, indeed, warriors. We train to kill our enemies. We are engaged in combat, we must pursue the enemy relentlessly, and we must be violent at times. What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight, however, is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings. Stress caused by lengthy deployments and combat is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign that we are human. If you feel such stress, do not hesitate to talk to your chain of command, your chaplain, or a medical expert.
We should use the survey results to renew our commitment to the values and standards that make us who we are and to spur re-examination of these issues. Leaders, in particular, need to discuss these issues with their troopers - and, as always, they need to set the right example and strive to ensure proper conduct. We should never underestimate the importance of good leadership and the difference it can make.
Thanks for what you continue to do. It is an honor to serve with each of you.
David H. Petraeus
General, United States Army
Commanding "
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 14, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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TGT
It's cool the General wrote that, even though it practically says "damage control after the survey" in it.
The official policy does count, but in any organization, everybody knows the real policy. When I used to work for a corporation, they used to say "Customer Service comes first, give them whatever they want." They didn't mention profits except as an aside in their value statements but all the managers knew what the real values were, Bottom line, numbers, and money!
Lois, did you read that article I pasted? Are you paying attention?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 14, 2007 - 10:06pm PT
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Well, Lois, that article did speak to the abuse of innocents that happens in war by the grunts.
But more importantly, you claim to be paying attention and that we are just irritated with you because you don't agree.
Lois, it because you don't pay attention.
Did you notice, for instance, this little paragraph in the article I posted
"Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004
"We were searching this rural farmhouse and this woman comes out and starts talking our ear off about how we weren't going to force her to think like "one of us" no matter what. She was really annoying and whatever we told her, she did something else. Finally I started to strangle her but the other guys pulled me off before she lost consciousness. I'm really sorry I didn't get to finish wringing her neck. I still remember her name. Lowiz or something. She was supposed to "one our side" A nurse or something" "
didn't it seem fishy to you that that one soldier regretted not strangling that "Lowiz" chick?
Busted again!
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 14, 2007 - 11:49pm PT
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Hmmmm, lets see.
"Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004 "
We have a captain A Krauley. who lives in "cragland" and is a member of "F troop".
We also have a nurse named Lowiz whom Krauley wanted to strangle because she never understood anything and was obstinate.
Hahahahahaha...... Good one Karl. Shucks Lois, I think you done been exposed. He even pointed it out to you and you still didn't get it.
................................
Please don't ever again say that I dislike you because you disagree with me. Your lack of comprehension is glaringly obvious. Its not so much that you don't understand, but that you obstinately stand by positions even after you are shown to be incorrect.
I also don't like how you assume things about people, such as your assumption that people don't like you because you disagree with them, I for one do not need you to agree with me. I have plenty of friends who I disagree with. My father is a devout Texas Republican and we get along great.
I would prefer that you understood what you were saying and what you were acting on. Such as understanding the implications of the directive which led to the atrocities of Abu Ghraib. This was a top down failure due to a poorly written directive. It was criminal. Especially considering how much effort people have gone to in the past to avoid these situations by writing such things as the Geneva Convention. Do you really think that they didn't know about such things as torture during world war 2?
The knowledge is there. It was hashed out by very wise people to avoid situations like Abu Ghraib and this administration deems to ignore it. This isn't just ignorant. It is criminal because the highest lawyers in the land, the ones suppose to protect us from our own government, signed off on it.
The corruption is rampant and you keep apologizing for them. Like somehow it is all just innocent mistakes.
You say you aren't heartless, but your own words say that there isn't anything to be especially upset about in Iraq. That it is all just a bunch of mistakes. To me that is heartless because many people are dying for a lie. Oli is correct. It is a sign of low intelligence to stoop to using swear words, so I will apologize for calling you a bitch. But I still think that many of your statements are heartless and sound like they come straight from Fox news.
Sorry Lois, but you have been exposed. And please do not stoop to saying that I want a gold star. That is childish and silly. I couldn't care less about " who" is right. I want all of our actions to be right and that can't happen if we continue to sleep.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2007 - 11:56pm PT
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Well John Moosie
If you ain't takin the gold star give it to me.
All I really ever wanted was a gold star.
I remember when the teach put em on everyones papers in little school.
It made everyone smile.
But where's my fukin gold star????????
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:09am PT
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You will have to ask Lois, she is the one who hands them out. Tell her you can have mine. :-)
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:27am PT
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For my very own. Wow, thanks. I always wanted my own black hole. They are very powerful. I could rule the world with a black hole. Thanks.
What colors do they come in?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:38am PT
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To match my evil pinko socialist ways. haha..
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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You guys are more obtuse than Lois. When will you learn?
-DenseJello
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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Thing is Jello, she like the attention and if we weren't entertaining her here, she's be somewhere else.
But yeah, I should have given up long ago, but sometimes it's fun playing catch.
Like earlier this week in the Capital Punishment thread when Lois was claiming she had no idea Crowley had admired a Republican candidate for President when she claimed he hated ALL Republicans. I did I little research and found the she had posted dozens and dozens of times to the thread in which Crowley admired Republican Ron Paul.
I'm just kinda fascinated with Lois since she's a nice person and really intellligent enough to to a nurse pract. and even teach it. I want to know what makes her tick and not tick and keep wondering if there's any "wake up" button I could find.
sorry to talk about you like you weren't there Lois. You understand.
Peace
Karl
Edit: Here's where I got her.
LEB> What "guy"? Are you referring to Crowley? If Crowley is supporting a particular presidential candidate then I have not participated in the thread on which he has spoken that content. I do not dog Crowley around on every thread. Unless he says his piece on whatever thread(s) I happen to be following (which is never more than 1-3 at any given time) - or else emails me about something - then I will be totally unaware of what he has written. Who exactly is Crowley supporting. This is the second reference someone has made to this concept.
As for Moosie and big vs small government, it is difficult to respond to anything John posts because he address so many points in one posting. John asks me so many questions that I can not keep track of them all. If you wish me to address a specific point which John has made then please ask John to repost that question (by itself!) or else repost it on his behalf. My whole issue with John is that he addresses entirely too much content at any one time. Again, exactly who is Crowley supporting and when/where did he make his views public concerning this issue?
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Re: Perhaps there IS a role for capital punishment, afterall
Jul 7, 2007, 02:36pm PST
Author: LEB Paul who, Crowley? You are all always yelling at me for not using google enough. I can't google "Paul." Which "Paul?"
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Re: Perhaps there IS a role for capital punishment, afterall Jul 7, 2007, 02:38pm PST
Author: Karl Baba
It only matters 50% if you followed that thread (I'd be surprised if you hadn't posted to it!)
The fact is, you're so not paying attention that you could accuse him of hating all Republicans. Obvously, it aint so,
As for moosie, This is for you. Post it below and cropped short so she can respond
Peace
Karl
time wasted edit for Ron Paul by crowley
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=409117
Crowley defends Ron Paul. I guess you weren't following that thread even though I totally, honestly lost count of how many times you posted to that thread cause I started laughing too hard!
good thing you didn't post to this one
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=410748
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Re: Perhaps there IS a role for capital punishment, afterall Jul 7, 2007, 02:40pm PST
Author:
LEB> What thread, Karl? Please direct me to the thread wherein Crowley published his views on this matter?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Word......
Sorry if I got mean. I'm trying to chill on that.
But Karl's stuff is pretty funny.
Aw.....ya just have to laugh.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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Karl, What really does impress me about Lois is her ability to carry on many activities at once. She can chat on several threads at the same time here on ST, while presumably keeping her work duties under control, and carrying on multiple e-mail conversations on the side. I believe she's a good person, just not worth engaging with on most of the topics she posts to here on ST. She adds very little to the conversation, when you look at it objectively, but we spend so much effort trying to "educate" her. She has indicated time and again that she's here as a gad-fly. She should be treated as such, no?
-Jeff
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:12am PT
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DMT is really good at multitasking too..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:15am PT
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Well, Russ, there you have it. LEB = DMT. Inescapable...
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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Socrates role was that of a gadfly "to sting people and whip them into a fury, all in the service of truth."
So gadfly used in this way is intelligent and noble.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:20am PT
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I will admit to getting caught up in trying to wake her up, but I am also aware that her voice is a common one and therefore needs to be addressed. Just look at how many people voted for Georgie and look at how many people believed and still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. These people need to hear something besides Fox news. If we don't speak to them, then who will. Bill O' Lie'ly ?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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You will first have to study for 100 years the the greatest logicians that ever existed for success.
Then you will be able to "wake the soul"
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:30am PT
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Seriously, I agree completely with what you say, John. I just think Lois is a lost cause and the effort could be better expended elsewhere. She has stated again and again that we will not change her mind about certain things. I believe her. Time to move on, I think.
EDIT: Werner. Don't you think comparing Lois's always-running commentary to Socrates astute and pointed questioning is a bit of a stretch?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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Then I have about 95 years to go. Shucks.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:34am PT
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Water: even though soft and a mere drop at a time can wear down a hard rock.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:48am PT
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Jello, I don't think Werner was comparing Lois to Socrates. Maybe karl haha.. :-)
I think you miss my point Jeff. I am aware that Lois isn't ready to hear. I hoped that she was open, but I see that she is not. Instead, I speak to everyone with her level of understanding. There are plenty of them out there. But you are correct, sometimes it becomes argueing for arguments sake. Worthless.
Werner..... Good analogy. Sometimes I get in too much of a hurry. Even with myself. Patience is key.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:54am PT
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John, I didn't miss your point. It's just that I think the people you're referring to who might be swayed by the arguments with Lois, might do like I have done, and quit looking at those threads where LEB becomes too prominent.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 03:01am PT
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Good Point Jeff. Now run quickly to that other thread.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:22pm PT
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Geez Lois!
I sure hope you are just trolling me. Moosie spelled it out for you above.
Nobody is trying to say you are bad. I'm just saying open your mind a bit more but more importantly pay attention to what you are reading or don't bother posting about it.
I inserted something I wrote myself into the article I pasted, a joke to see if you were paying attention like you claimed to.
"Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004
"We were searching this rural farmhouse and this woman comes out and starts talking our ear off about how we weren't going to force her to think like "one of us" no matter what. She was really annoying and whatever we told her, she did something else. Finally I started to strangle her but the other guys pulled me off before she lost consciousness. I'm really sorry I didn't get to finish wringing her neck. I still remember her name. Lowiz or something. She was supposed to "one our side" A nurse or something" "
Lowis = You, a nurse who lives on a farm
Krauley = Crowley
Funny, you missed it. I wrote that part. Get it now?
Jane, you.....
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
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Lois, no one thinks you are worthless. Well, some might, but I don't. That is your own interpetation and assumption. Are you Stubborn in the face of things that conflict with what you believe ?...YES. Do you Skim too much and miss the jist of things ?.....YES.....Do we really wish that you would take a look at these things and be aware when someone points out that you missed something? YES... Do we hope that Maybe someday you will think of others when it comes to sharing the wealth...YES ( please notice that I said maybe someday).......... But Worthless.....NO.
If we really thought you were worthless, then we wouldn't talk to you. Perhaps it would be good if you took a look at why you assume people think you are worthless if they criticise you.
Other then that.....Karls post was hilarious.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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I was talking about taxes Lois. You know, national health care. Better public schools. Better hospitals with better staffing. Things like that.
Now please let this thread die. Its way out of hand. Thank you.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Silly Lois
Like I said before, nobody is saying you are bad. Just wake up and pay attention to what you are doing. You accused people of hating when they obviously weren't. You ask people to write things out for you that they've already done serveral times. Respect our time and effort.
Otherwise, you're just fine with me, (in that supertopo kind of diverse "fine")
You are a friend and I want to help you with this one little thing thats a big thing. Kind of like a great person that walks around with thier dick hanging out of their pants without knowing it. They might wonder why folks don't treat them respectfully like they would otherwise deserve
;-) and Peace
Karl
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