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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 11, 2004 - 01:28am PT
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There was an argument on the Wall of Early Morning Light thread that got me thinking about all of the following -- again. I nearly deleted this, maybe I should have, it seems very ungracious to post this. The problem is that even though I manage to find ways to make my own climbing more meaningful, I've become more and more cynical about the state of Climbing in general. Posting this on Chris' site is rude, but what I see happening to Climbing is a much more disturbing form of biting the hand that feeds you.
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When Bryan and I discuss Erik's labors we seem to usually preface our remarks by saying "Erik is a really nice guy, but . . ."
Erik does not listen. You tell him your concerns, he nods his head with a smile half ganja half Buddha, and he continues doing what he is sure is best for you and me. Many of you applaud what he is doing, but has he ever asked for your input? He is soft-spoken, modest, and wouldn't hurt a fly, but I think he is part of an organization that has exploited and exacerbated the trend among many newer climbers to view climbing as an activity like bowling.
Maybe Erik should have asked us if we wanted him to build us a gigantic terrace at the El Cap base below LiA and ZM. A friend and I tried to return it to a semblance of its natural talus strewn state, but we soon discovered he had done some major earth-moving. He had used a come-along, levers, shovels, etc. to create a retaining wall which he then filled and leveled, thereby making a space big enough for 30 safewallclimbers to bivy. Do you know who got busted two winters ago for trundling rocks off of the El Cap Tree ledge? He was trying to make that safe and bivy friendly too.
Erik's itchy drilling finger has made El Cap much safer and much more convenient. You may be curious how Erik could have enough energy to drill an entire ladder of 3/8" bolts by hand, but not enough energy to pull the dowels and drill them out or patch them. Well, maybe it was too inconvenient or maybe you are asking the wrong question. He seems to have an easy time replacing chicken bolts and every other bolt, dowel or rivet with identical 3/8" stainless steel bolts, but this makes it extremely difficult for someone like Bryan to identify what was from the FA so he can return the route to its original state of inconvenience. But Erik doesn't seem to care about that or if he does he'd probably say it's a good thing Bryan can't do this.
But of course Erik is just a volunteer for some much larger organizations -- oh, but wait he isn't actually, officially connected to ASCA, etc., because if he was ever hilti, I mean guilty of anything it might tarnish the reputation of those stellar organizations run by Chris Mac.
From a business perspective I think Chris Mac had a brilliant idea:
* First you start a non-profit that gets well-meaning folk to donate their money so that other well-meaning folk like Erik can be supplied when they volunteer to replace bolts -- frame it as being about saving climber's lives, show pictures of cracked, rusty 1/4" bolts and rusty Leeper hangers, forget to mention all the other acceptably sound gear your cronies will replace.
* Second you start a guidebook business that gives minute details about many routes and advertises the idea that they are, if not safe, saf-er because of all the new bolts. You expand your market this way because now it's not just a bunch of dirtbags who will buy your guide. People whose definition of adventure involves precisely measured quantities, and has nothing to do with the unknown (which does not necessarily mean “more dangerous“), will buy it in droves. People who are unwilling or unable to put in their time picking up scraps of arcana at the deli or on the actual wall will slobber all over the guide when they hang with their friends at the gym. And even the rats will buy it because ignoring info on something you're passionate about is as easy as following the stupid advice to just ignore a retro bolt and not clip it.
* Third you start a website that advertises your product and creates a community of verbal masturbators; yes, I'm as guilty as anyone. The Deli is dead, long live supertopo. More people are now aware of and donating to your non-profit which increases the perception of saf-er climbing. More people are aware of your guide and buying it and it's spin-offs. The community is constantly volunteering more of the minutiae that you can use in future editions to take even more of the unknown quantity out of more climbs. And on and on, each tentacle feeding the other.
Climbing has been transitioning from an adventurous way of life to an athletic pastime, fitting right into our consumer society. The overall trend started before Chris ever did a wall. Chris was just astute enough and lucky enough to put this all together, and get Erik et al to help him, at the right time, but I don't think the rest of us have been so fortunate; like a meal of bad chinese food, the illusory drugs of safety, convenience, and information may fill me up, but they leave me feeling empty of adventure. Yeah, I know it's out there, and I am out there looking and finding it, and I have many friends who are neck-deep in a life full of adventure, but I can't ignore the retro bolt and I can't help being discouraged about the changing crags, and the changing attitudes among the climbing masses. Like it or not, their ethics or lack thereof will affect you and me. The future is bright stainless steel.
Scott Lennox
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 11, 2004 - 02:28am PT
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Hey Scott,
Many people have issues with Erik, and the Zodiac cleanup was a reaction. However, the ASCA is not just Erik, and here's some concrete examples of bolt reduction due to ASCA rebolters:
1) The Nose - Jack & I removed 23 excess bolts, including original Harding bolts next to good cam placements, in the 3 days I helped him out. He removed others in later work.
2) Rostrum - Jack & I removed 7 excess bolts, including an entire 3 bolt anchor, and we will remove the 2 bolts on the 3rd pitch as soon as Don's new guide comes out (which will not show those bolts and will recommend a different belay instead of the one with a bolt halfway up the hand crack).
3) Good Book - again, we removed 3 excess original bolts, and patched the holes on 2 others that had fallen out, for a net reduction of 5 original bolts (which Harding never would have placed if he'd had cams)
4) Super Slab - I removed the protection bolt since it was near a good #1 camalot crack (FA was pre-cams)
5) Great White Book, Tuolumne - I removed a bolted anchor at the top of the corner that was 10' from a bomber crack.
6) South Crack - I removed the off-route bolt on the first slab pitch, and even though TM Herbert (FA of the slab pitches) asked me to add a new one on route (about 15' below the one I removed), I did not add the bolt.
That's not including many other examples, and not even mentioning the dozens of doubled protection bolts replaced with a single good bolt. And even with the controversial replacements, Erik & Chris & Singer & others have cleaned up a big pile of junk, and done some chopping as well. Chris will probably chime in with better details.
Walls are a mess as far as figuring out what's original. Just hung out a bit with Bryan in Tuolumne, if I remember correctly the Zodiac cleanup brings the bolt count down to 147. That's double the original count of 74 (hope I got those numbers right). Salathe had 13 bolts on the FA. Not anymore. Things change.
We can all see the writing on the wall - the modern gym climbing generation COULD obliterate traditional scary climbing with enough bolts. Many ASCA volunteers are just as worried about that possible future as you are. One of my main motivations for replacing bolts on really runout routes is to preserve the climbs - if no one maintains the few bolts on these testpieces, then others might conclude that they ought to be retrobolted since no one cares about them. Check out the rebolted routes list in Tuolumne for many examples.
Everything is a balancing act. Erik went too far in one direction, and he can be infuriating at times. When I removed the bolts on the Good Book offwidth, some folks said I went too far in the other direction (Singer chewed me out for a good half hour).
I think (hopefully) that Erik has got the message that he needs to go to much greater lengths to consult the FAs, and to chill out on the "Robbins interpretation" - namely if there's a bolt, it should be bomber.
All of us who want to preserve traditional climbing have to convince the upcoming generation of climbers that these climbs should be preserved as is. If we act too elitist, or sound too shrill, then we'll just piss off the newer climbers, and they'll retrobolt sooner or later. If we educate them and get them to appreciate dangerous climbing, then they'll in turn educate the next generation, and so on.
When my friend Drew finished leading the final 1/4" ascent of You Asked For It in Tuolumne last year (carrying a hammer & drill kit on lead to replace a bolt at each belay!), he asked a depressing question - "How many years before this thing is a sport climb?"
It's up to us...if we do enough to maintain respect for trad climbing, hopefully the answer will be "never."
Greg
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 11, 2004 - 02:42am PT
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just an idea, but...
you could start your crusade by not donating hardware to people who use power drills in designated wilderness areas....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:36am PT
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Maybe it's a valid question to ask ourselves whether it's bolts that bother us or just the influx of other climbers.
Maybe we're just the previous generation of climbers and, like the previous generation of anything, we just have to bitch and moan about what the kids are wearing, what music they listen to, and how they don't work like we had to.
I appreciate the efforts of folks like Greg who are spending so much time preserving routes even if I think they make mistakes sometimes. The choppers are making mistakes too. We're human, we screw up and then folks rag on us for it. That's life, but I'll take the work of the ASCA over the work of Jim Beyer anytime.
Not that it makes as much difference as folks say. Accidents and fatalities due to bolt failure are very, very rare. Routes aren't really getting much safer due to having bomber bolts. Long term yeah, sooner or later we'd be eating it on routes with rusted out bolts, but replacing those bolts isn't making things so much safer now. The old bolts were safe when they went in, and, when replaced now, are safe again, what's the diff?
There are more climbers now. Accept reality. They're people, make friends, let's accept them in the brotherhood and let them become part of the crowd that stands up for nature and the environment. Some of the same folks who deplore the new crowds climbing haven't been climbing so long themselves.
If folks are climbing routes that are too safe or whose details are too well known for you, what's it to you? I have no problem at all finding routes that are dangerous, in need of repair, and about which little is known. I spent a whole day climbing from the floor to the rim last week without ever knowing if I was on a route or not. A few days later I climbed 15 pitches on Labor Day weekend within Yosemite and didn't see another person and didn't hear a car, bus or dumpster either. Why should everybody climb the same? The way you want to climb is open for the cranking.
I find that things aren't much different than they ever were. Everybody still gets gripped, Epics still abound, and people are still getting killed on these newly extra safe routes. Folks like to be the coolest and diss the lesser climbers and outsiders. Same as it ever was.
Relax, it's all good, except for the bad parts, and there have always been bad parts
Peace
karl
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:19am PT
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I’m not sure I understand what the diameter of a bolt or the particular alloy used in manufacturing it has to do with adventure. In one short sentence you seem to gloss over the fact that wild adventure is still out there in whatever form you want it. Your rant reeks more of bitterness and cynicism due to the fact that many new climbers simply don't subscribe to your precise definition of adventure. Perhaps Yosemite Valley was once your private playground and now you have to share it with a climbing community that is ten times the size of what it once was. I imagine that is indeed difficult to swallow but I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the finger pointing. Are you suggesting we should all climb for the exact same reasons that Scott Lennox climbs?
I started climbing about 12 years ago. Not as long as many of you but long enough that I remember climbing before organizations like the ASCA existed. I remember learning on bolted lines in Josh that placed you many feet above rusty 1/4" time bombs. The thing is, the size of the bolt never had anything to do with why I liked climbing. For me it's about moving over stone in a fantastic landscape. For me it has never been about the thrill of cheating death. I’ve supported the ASCA and will continue to do so because safer and cleaner belays actually increases the amount of adventure in my life.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:24am PT
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Erik DOES listen, according to your account. He just doesn't do what you want. By this definition Bryan doesn't listen either. They both have pride and a vision.
I think you've figured out SuperTaco. Mac is a clever businessman; you only make $ selling climbing junk if you can sell to someone besides dirtbags. Think Patagonia. Here's the thing, though. The gumbies can only do the Nose, LF, and Zodiac. Whoops, nix Zodiac. Those routes were overloaded before ST and they'll be overloaded until the next influenza plague. There's no line on the Ranch, is what I'm saying, and there never will be. Chris Mac's selling gumbies a $24.95 book that's filled with routes gumbies can never climb. Now that's genius.
The idea that guidebook authors must withhold information to create artificial adventure, however, is preposterous. Feel free to put the blinders on if you want. You can wear corduroy knickers and a railroad engineer's cap and pretend you're RR. Adventure is not a community thing, it's an individual thing. (Bolting down routes is one thing; I'm talking about beta here.) Go into the boonies and scare yourself.
And no, climbing should never be convenient. With all due respect to forum members who believe otherwise (cuz they can climb hard sometimes) the modern wall party style is inextricably linked to the rebolting and dumbing down of El Cap routes. It's bad style and a show of disrespect to the creation.
End of masturbation.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:35am PT
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What superb craftsmanship there is in much of the writing above! How gloriously refreshing it is around this place. No queue on The Ranch indeed. Carry on, chaps.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:08pm PT
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Greg said:
"When my friend Drew finished leading the final 1/4" ascent of You Asked For It in Tuolumne last year (carrying a hammer & drill kit on lead to replace a bolt at each belay!), he asked a depressing question - "How many years before this thing is a sport climb?"
I just showed Moe your post and he said that his crowbar is still in servicable shape.
Climbing entreprenuers are a dime a dozen. The death of climbing will be from our own desrie to make money off of something we love deeply. Kind of self defeating really
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:15pm PT
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yo,
"They both have pride and a vision."
Yeah, but you should mention one has visions of chopping and pulling while the other has visions of power drils dancing in his head, and El Cap base renovations....two distinctly unique isions in my mind.
and this,
"With all due respect to forum members who believe otherwise (cuz they can climb hard sometimes) the modern wall party style is inextricably linked to the rebolting and dumbing down of El Cap routes. It's bad style and a show of disrespect to the creation."
you here your saying it's the "modern wall climbing parties" fault and not the one rouge individual who thinks they are above the rules of the game? Whatever man. I'd say the majority of modern wall climbers out there aren't trying to sneak their Bosches up the wall with a big bag of 3/8" SS. There are very few individuals out there who are guilty of truely and somewhat permanently "dumning down" a route...and they should be recognized. A style of climbing isn't linked to this phenomenon, a few people are, and they are the ones showing disrespet to the creation, and the rest of us climbers who prefer not to have our future climbing access and freedoms jepordized because they are too lazy to do it the old way.
And don't be trying to paint Chis Mac as some crafty buisnessman looking to rip off the masses. His intentions are true in my opinion, to provide infromation for people and interesting history that is catologued in such a fashoin nowhere else. The book is worth face value just for the FA stories alone.
This all makes me think of a quote from one of my favorite musicians...
"If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause, it's quite a bit like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gause."
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 04:18pm PT
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Mr. Lennox, Your points ring true all the way around. I share your frustration and sadnes at this situation especially since most people here lack the insight to see the Big Picture.
Chris Mac is nothing short of a capitalist pimp, spawned from the parent company Pacific Sun, to make a few bucks off the climbing world and contribute to destroy it during the process. This is similar to how McDonalds and other fast food chains have ruined any shred of culture that existed in America and now other countries. Erik Sloan is a tool of this evil machinery although I believe that in his own addled mind he thinks he's doing "good".
When Sloan retrobolts a route it is basically destroyed for a proper bolt replacer since after he's done with it no one can tell what's original or not. When this is complete the route is then "MacNamarized" and ready for a Supertopo. I find what Erik Sloan is doing to the cliffs of Yosemite is digusting, cowardly, deplorable, and selfish. He should be stopped. Someone should break all his fingers so he can no longer pull the trigger of the Hilti.
Supertopo and ASCA have never seen a penny of my money and they never will. In fact I remove ASCA bolts at my discretion and reuse them on first ascents.
On a side note
Mr. Karl Baba, I have begun to ignore most of your posts and will soon no longer read any of them. They are nothing short of fence-sitting worthless drivel, hot air from someone afraid to offend anyone. You have nothing to say. You avoid it because voicing any sort of opinion that may start a controversy would jeopardize your illegal guiding buisiness in Yosemite Valley, because you know that your potential clients read this forum.
more later, JB
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 04:24pm PT
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"Erik DOES listen, according to your account. He just doesn't do what you want. By this definition Bryan doesn't listen either."
yo, You are all wrong. Sloan does NOT listen. Bryan called me numerous times months ago soliciting my input and opinions regarding what he wanted to do. Huge difference there.
SLOAN=JERK
BRYAN=OK
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Sep 11, 2004 - 05:21pm PT
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Again Loom, we agree. as we have discussed before in person, climbing as a whole has been whored by the masses. Even Yvon Chuinard is in on it. Just yesterday I was in the Mountain shop with the "Mean Bean" Bernardo Rivenadayera and we were flipping through the Patagonia catalog. Yvon is selling a lined flannel for $130. sureley his clothing line is not geared for climbers at that price. He'd gladly use a photo of somebody climbing to help him sell it to somebody else in Manhattan though. Another example, every time Steve Shnieder climbs anything we all have to endure a slide show and a spray article in the mags so he can maintain a sponsor or whatever it is he gets out of his "climbing".Last photo of that guy I saw he was swinging around on a rope like band-o-kooks somewhere high on el cap, wasn't even climbing. Every time I pick up a magazine I see canned photos from Corey Rich of Chris Mac somewhere on El Cap. Every photo is of somebody toproping off a bolt on some hunk of choss. Is it truly nescessary to have a personal photographer with you on every ascent that you make?Is it realy nescesary to have a Ropegun bouldering pad to go out and paw at the little rocks? I guess I should be more like that, then every route I put up wouldn't get renamed on the second ascent, and I could make a quick buck off my climbing to boot. But I'm not into climbing for the money. Shnieder, Chouinard, Macnamera, Wright, etc. etc. these guys are obviosly into it to make a $$$ or fame or whatever it is they need.
As far as adventure goes I've found plenty of it in Yosemite. The past 10 walls I've done were first ascents I didn't see anybody on the whole wall when I did them either. I catch alot of crap for the way I climb in yosemite. Here's the funny part, the people who slander me haven't even repeated one of my routes. And the few that have been repeated have had Bolts added to them by the second ascent team, then were reported as first ascents to the spray-mags, with a full photo spread by a famous climbing photograper. Obviosly fame is a big motivater for some as well. When I wrote a letter to the editor about the lies I was dismissed as a fanatic.Take the commercialism out of climbing, as well as the illusion of safety and I'll guarantee there would be less people doing it.When I started climbing in '84 it was a way of life,the people I met had very modest means and followed the favorable weather from crag to crag.Now it seems to be more of an activity, like bowling as Loom said. I guess what I'm trying to say is: As long as there's money changing hands, climbing will only get more and more crowded and "safer". The pimps will make money and the adventurers will head further into the hills.and we'll all be wearing Prana "aproach pants" with five-tennies when we head out to Fashon Mountain.
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 05:38pm PT
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"When my friend Drew finished leading the final 1/4" ascent of You Asked For It in Tuolumne last year (carrying a hammer & drill kit on lead to replace a bolt at each belay!), he asked a depressing question - "How many years before this thing is a sport climb?"
Greg's honest answer would have been, "Years?! Drew my son, If we can get enough suckers to donate to ASCA, it could be DAYS, if you know what I mean" wink, wink.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 06:36pm PT
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I had originally posted a diatribe here under the assumption that JB was Jim Beyer. I jumped the gun because JB surfaced just as the WEML thread heated up. Unfortunately, he says he isn't Jim so all that writing is wasted. I'll just post the parts relevant to JB's complaints about me.
Maybe I should also reply to the post below as well. I don't respond to anybody who accuses me of anything that could get me in trouble in public. Duh. Denials of untrue accusations aren't believable and why incriminate yourself fessing up to any true allegations? If I was up to something, you can be sure that informing those who didn't suspect before would be good for business. It surprises me that folks who would never think of calling the rangers on their fellow climbers for any legal violation would find the idea of violating Delaware North's corporate monopoly so egregious that public accusations are in order. On the other hand, at least he's not suggesting that folks track me down and break my fingers.
I do use Yosemite as the centerpiece for my Legal photography operation. buy a print at
http://www.peaklightimages.com/PhotoHome
Here is my edited response to JB
JB
I posted about climbing on the internet for many years when I had a real job. My style has always been to seek understanding and positive communication. It's called Wisdom and it's because I choose to be happy and love people when I can. A Google groups search of Karl Baba on Rec.climbing will verify that.
I understand that we each have our own perspectives and that, from our own point of view, each perspective has some validity. That’s why I don’t come down hard on folks and say “This is Right and This is Wrong.” I usually find the truth is in-between. I find that some dirtbag aid climbers and right wing fanatics have a lot in common. They only see things their own way. Their crap doesn't stink but they can't stand the smell of everyone elses.
For me, the attitude of some aid climbers that "climbing new routes is not a public service," that most other climbers are unworthy losers, and hammering, drilling, nailing and other forms of destruction are OK as long as the climbing is hard and dangerous enough, and that climbing needs to be forced back into a culture of a few heavy drinkers living in their vans, is selfish and deplorable.
But I also happen to know many of the folks who think that way and I can't condemn them as people because I know them as friends/acquaintances, because I see their humanity, their humor, and their good qualities. I imagine that if I knew you that I would probably find the same about you.
The folks out there doing trade routes, working their way up through the crack circuit, and reading their supertopo book are real humans, great folks mostly. They are having what is for them, great adventures, and being safe enough to look their family in the face and say "I don't have a death wish. I just need some freedom, adventure and nature in my life."
I’m not an elitist and I don’t like elitist attitudes.
The truth is that I mean what I say here on Supertopo and those who know me know it.
Peace
Karl
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 06:57pm PT
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Karl, I actually read your complete diatribe about Jim and suggest you place it on the WOEML thread then delete it from here. This is not the place for it.
I am not Jim Beyer although we unfortunately share the same initials. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
As far as judging Jim as a person or just his style I think you should refrain from it until we hear directly from him what he has to say regarding his actions on El Cap. At this point he has become some sort of easy target whipping boy here at STF and it's not fair. Your post is actually meaningless because everyone here already has an axe to grind with him due to the recent hearsay.
Jim aside, I was surprised you did not respond to the allegation I presented accusing you of using Yosemite Valley as the centerpiece of you ILLEGAL guiding operation.
JB
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
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Sep 11, 2004 - 08:12pm PT
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Jim Beam, is that you?
gumbie-
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 08:25pm PT
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I don't have a stand regarding Erik's rebolting since I haven't knowingly run up against it yet.
It's often true that the devil is in the details.
Peace
karl
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drunky
Social climber
flagstaff,az
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Sep 11, 2004 - 09:29pm PT
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Oh I don't even know where to start...
Alot has been said and I can't even remember what has so if anything is redundant, sorry.
Erik Sloan is a great guy, proud climber and smart individual. To trash him in the community is unacceptable. Chris Mac-I don't know him personally but his supertopos guide is an acceptional piece of climbing history preservation. To me, guidebooks have always been more then just a bunch of topos, they have the ability to document and preserve history. Those who truly climb with climbing in their souls know this. It's a difficult discussion of who's got the right to do what? When first ascents go up, the first ascentionist decides. But what led to that decision? At some points it's simply a matter of money. The FA team didn't have the money for extra bolts, access to new technology. There is a belay on space that used to only be a single bolt, and an original belay on WEML up high that was pins. Was it a matter of time, motivation to push the limit, or money and lack of bolts and technology? Do we pass judgement? When that bolt went in 10, 20 30 years ago, it was sound; what is it now? Do you have so much spare time on your hands that you can research every placement on a route? Maybe people think that supertopos makes everything easier, my oppinion, you climb el cap, you climbed elcap! A1 or A5 who cares. you want to push the limits, phuqn pushm, I applaud you. But trashing people for performing unselfish acts of community service is unnaceptable.
I also have wavered on the zodiac issue. I commend those guys for what they are doing or have done. But pulling good bolts at belays? Can't really decide where i stand but leaning towards the side of bullsh*t. Do I want to see a sport route up el cap? hell no. Do i want to see routes trashed? hell no. (of course other than ring of fire, that christian drill fest should be erased from time). Do i want to see friends trashed for their efforts? HELL NO.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Sep 11, 2004 - 09:50pm PT
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I never said I agreed with Sloan's vision, simply tried to illustrate a prudent idea: your enemy sees you as you see him. Both sides, during a disagreement, wonder "What the hell is wrong with that dude? He doesn't f*#king listen!"
No, Lammy, I don't believe the one rouge (sic) individual causes more harm. Decades of heavy parties hauling too-heavy loads, drilling excessive anchors, throwing in convenient bivy bolts are a scourge. And people with that kind of toolbox up there, just guessing here, are the ones with the means to enhance non-drilled placements. I psyched myself up for months for the fifth pitch of the ZM, what ST calls A3R hooks. F*#king bomber, and the ice age didn't make em that way. Biggest let down of the year.
Stop reading Karl's posts at your own expense.
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