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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 11, 2004 - 01:28am PT
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There was an argument on the Wall of Early Morning Light thread that got me thinking about all of the following -- again. I nearly deleted this, maybe I should have, it seems very ungracious to post this. The problem is that even though I manage to find ways to make my own climbing more meaningful, I've become more and more cynical about the state of Climbing in general. Posting this on Chris' site is rude, but what I see happening to Climbing is a much more disturbing form of biting the hand that feeds you.
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When Bryan and I discuss Erik's labors we seem to usually preface our remarks by saying "Erik is a really nice guy, but . . ."
Erik does not listen. You tell him your concerns, he nods his head with a smile half ganja half Buddha, and he continues doing what he is sure is best for you and me. Many of you applaud what he is doing, but has he ever asked for your input? He is soft-spoken, modest, and wouldn't hurt a fly, but I think he is part of an organization that has exploited and exacerbated the trend among many newer climbers to view climbing as an activity like bowling.
Maybe Erik should have asked us if we wanted him to build us a gigantic terrace at the El Cap base below LiA and ZM. A friend and I tried to return it to a semblance of its natural talus strewn state, but we soon discovered he had done some major earth-moving. He had used a come-along, levers, shovels, etc. to create a retaining wall which he then filled and leveled, thereby making a space big enough for 30 safewallclimbers to bivy. Do you know who got busted two winters ago for trundling rocks off of the El Cap Tree ledge? He was trying to make that safe and bivy friendly too.
Erik's itchy drilling finger has made El Cap much safer and much more convenient. You may be curious how Erik could have enough energy to drill an entire ladder of 3/8" bolts by hand, but not enough energy to pull the dowels and drill them out or patch them. Well, maybe it was too inconvenient or maybe you are asking the wrong question. He seems to have an easy time replacing chicken bolts and every other bolt, dowel or rivet with identical 3/8" stainless steel bolts, but this makes it extremely difficult for someone like Bryan to identify what was from the FA so he can return the route to its original state of inconvenience. But Erik doesn't seem to care about that or if he does he'd probably say it's a good thing Bryan can't do this.
But of course Erik is just a volunteer for some much larger organizations -- oh, but wait he isn't actually, officially connected to ASCA, etc., because if he was ever hilti, I mean guilty of anything it might tarnish the reputation of those stellar organizations run by Chris Mac.
From a business perspective I think Chris Mac had a brilliant idea:
* First you start a non-profit that gets well-meaning folk to donate their money so that other well-meaning folk like Erik can be supplied when they volunteer to replace bolts -- frame it as being about saving climber's lives, show pictures of cracked, rusty 1/4" bolts and rusty Leeper hangers, forget to mention all the other acceptably sound gear your cronies will replace.
* Second you start a guidebook business that gives minute details about many routes and advertises the idea that they are, if not safe, saf-er because of all the new bolts. You expand your market this way because now it's not just a bunch of dirtbags who will buy your guide. People whose definition of adventure involves precisely measured quantities, and has nothing to do with the unknown (which does not necessarily mean “more dangerous“), will buy it in droves. People who are unwilling or unable to put in their time picking up scraps of arcana at the deli or on the actual wall will slobber all over the guide when they hang with their friends at the gym. And even the rats will buy it because ignoring info on something you're passionate about is as easy as following the stupid advice to just ignore a retro bolt and not clip it.
* Third you start a website that advertises your product and creates a community of verbal masturbators; yes, I'm as guilty as anyone. The Deli is dead, long live supertopo. More people are now aware of and donating to your non-profit which increases the perception of saf-er climbing. More people are aware of your guide and buying it and it's spin-offs. The community is constantly volunteering more of the minutiae that you can use in future editions to take even more of the unknown quantity out of more climbs. And on and on, each tentacle feeding the other.
Climbing has been transitioning from an adventurous way of life to an athletic pastime, fitting right into our consumer society. The overall trend started before Chris ever did a wall. Chris was just astute enough and lucky enough to put this all together, and get Erik et al to help him, at the right time, but I don't think the rest of us have been so fortunate; like a meal of bad chinese food, the illusory drugs of safety, convenience, and information may fill me up, but they leave me feeling empty of adventure. Yeah, I know it's out there, and I am out there looking and finding it, and I have many friends who are neck-deep in a life full of adventure, but I can't ignore the retro bolt and I can't help being discouraged about the changing crags, and the changing attitudes among the climbing masses. Like it or not, their ethics or lack thereof will affect you and me. The future is bright stainless steel.
Scott Lennox
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 11, 2004 - 02:28am PT
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Hey Scott,
Many people have issues with Erik, and the Zodiac cleanup was a reaction. However, the ASCA is not just Erik, and here's some concrete examples of bolt reduction due to ASCA rebolters:
1) The Nose - Jack & I removed 23 excess bolts, including original Harding bolts next to good cam placements, in the 3 days I helped him out. He removed others in later work.
2) Rostrum - Jack & I removed 7 excess bolts, including an entire 3 bolt anchor, and we will remove the 2 bolts on the 3rd pitch as soon as Don's new guide comes out (which will not show those bolts and will recommend a different belay instead of the one with a bolt halfway up the hand crack).
3) Good Book - again, we removed 3 excess original bolts, and patched the holes on 2 others that had fallen out, for a net reduction of 5 original bolts (which Harding never would have placed if he'd had cams)
4) Super Slab - I removed the protection bolt since it was near a good #1 camalot crack (FA was pre-cams)
5) Great White Book, Tuolumne - I removed a bolted anchor at the top of the corner that was 10' from a bomber crack.
6) South Crack - I removed the off-route bolt on the first slab pitch, and even though TM Herbert (FA of the slab pitches) asked me to add a new one on route (about 15' below the one I removed), I did not add the bolt.
That's not including many other examples, and not even mentioning the dozens of doubled protection bolts replaced with a single good bolt. And even with the controversial replacements, Erik & Chris & Singer & others have cleaned up a big pile of junk, and done some chopping as well. Chris will probably chime in with better details.
Walls are a mess as far as figuring out what's original. Just hung out a bit with Bryan in Tuolumne, if I remember correctly the Zodiac cleanup brings the bolt count down to 147. That's double the original count of 74 (hope I got those numbers right). Salathe had 13 bolts on the FA. Not anymore. Things change.
We can all see the writing on the wall - the modern gym climbing generation COULD obliterate traditional scary climbing with enough bolts. Many ASCA volunteers are just as worried about that possible future as you are. One of my main motivations for replacing bolts on really runout routes is to preserve the climbs - if no one maintains the few bolts on these testpieces, then others might conclude that they ought to be retrobolted since no one cares about them. Check out the rebolted routes list in Tuolumne for many examples.
Everything is a balancing act. Erik went too far in one direction, and he can be infuriating at times. When I removed the bolts on the Good Book offwidth, some folks said I went too far in the other direction (Singer chewed me out for a good half hour).
I think (hopefully) that Erik has got the message that he needs to go to much greater lengths to consult the FAs, and to chill out on the "Robbins interpretation" - namely if there's a bolt, it should be bomber.
All of us who want to preserve traditional climbing have to convince the upcoming generation of climbers that these climbs should be preserved as is. If we act too elitist, or sound too shrill, then we'll just piss off the newer climbers, and they'll retrobolt sooner or later. If we educate them and get them to appreciate dangerous climbing, then they'll in turn educate the next generation, and so on.
When my friend Drew finished leading the final 1/4" ascent of You Asked For It in Tuolumne last year (carrying a hammer & drill kit on lead to replace a bolt at each belay!), he asked a depressing question - "How many years before this thing is a sport climb?"
It's up to us...if we do enough to maintain respect for trad climbing, hopefully the answer will be "never."
Greg
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 11, 2004 - 02:42am PT
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just an idea, but...
you could start your crusade by not donating hardware to people who use power drills in designated wilderness areas....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:36am PT
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Maybe it's a valid question to ask ourselves whether it's bolts that bother us or just the influx of other climbers.
Maybe we're just the previous generation of climbers and, like the previous generation of anything, we just have to bitch and moan about what the kids are wearing, what music they listen to, and how they don't work like we had to.
I appreciate the efforts of folks like Greg who are spending so much time preserving routes even if I think they make mistakes sometimes. The choppers are making mistakes too. We're human, we screw up and then folks rag on us for it. That's life, but I'll take the work of the ASCA over the work of Jim Beyer anytime.
Not that it makes as much difference as folks say. Accidents and fatalities due to bolt failure are very, very rare. Routes aren't really getting much safer due to having bomber bolts. Long term yeah, sooner or later we'd be eating it on routes with rusted out bolts, but replacing those bolts isn't making things so much safer now. The old bolts were safe when they went in, and, when replaced now, are safe again, what's the diff?
There are more climbers now. Accept reality. They're people, make friends, let's accept them in the brotherhood and let them become part of the crowd that stands up for nature and the environment. Some of the same folks who deplore the new crowds climbing haven't been climbing so long themselves.
If folks are climbing routes that are too safe or whose details are too well known for you, what's it to you? I have no problem at all finding routes that are dangerous, in need of repair, and about which little is known. I spent a whole day climbing from the floor to the rim last week without ever knowing if I was on a route or not. A few days later I climbed 15 pitches on Labor Day weekend within Yosemite and didn't see another person and didn't hear a car, bus or dumpster either. Why should everybody climb the same? The way you want to climb is open for the cranking.
I find that things aren't much different than they ever were. Everybody still gets gripped, Epics still abound, and people are still getting killed on these newly extra safe routes. Folks like to be the coolest and diss the lesser climbers and outsiders. Same as it ever was.
Relax, it's all good, except for the bad parts, and there have always been bad parts
Peace
karl
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:19am PT
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I’m not sure I understand what the diameter of a bolt or the particular alloy used in manufacturing it has to do with adventure. In one short sentence you seem to gloss over the fact that wild adventure is still out there in whatever form you want it. Your rant reeks more of bitterness and cynicism due to the fact that many new climbers simply don't subscribe to your precise definition of adventure. Perhaps Yosemite Valley was once your private playground and now you have to share it with a climbing community that is ten times the size of what it once was. I imagine that is indeed difficult to swallow but I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the finger pointing. Are you suggesting we should all climb for the exact same reasons that Scott Lennox climbs?
I started climbing about 12 years ago. Not as long as many of you but long enough that I remember climbing before organizations like the ASCA existed. I remember learning on bolted lines in Josh that placed you many feet above rusty 1/4" time bombs. The thing is, the size of the bolt never had anything to do with why I liked climbing. For me it's about moving over stone in a fantastic landscape. For me it has never been about the thrill of cheating death. I’ve supported the ASCA and will continue to do so because safer and cleaner belays actually increases the amount of adventure in my life.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:24am PT
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Erik DOES listen, according to your account. He just doesn't do what you want. By this definition Bryan doesn't listen either. They both have pride and a vision.
I think you've figured out SuperTaco. Mac is a clever businessman; you only make $ selling climbing junk if you can sell to someone besides dirtbags. Think Patagonia. Here's the thing, though. The gumbies can only do the Nose, LF, and Zodiac. Whoops, nix Zodiac. Those routes were overloaded before ST and they'll be overloaded until the next influenza plague. There's no line on the Ranch, is what I'm saying, and there never will be. Chris Mac's selling gumbies a $24.95 book that's filled with routes gumbies can never climb. Now that's genius.
The idea that guidebook authors must withhold information to create artificial adventure, however, is preposterous. Feel free to put the blinders on if you want. You can wear corduroy knickers and a railroad engineer's cap and pretend you're RR. Adventure is not a community thing, it's an individual thing. (Bolting down routes is one thing; I'm talking about beta here.) Go into the boonies and scare yourself.
And no, climbing should never be convenient. With all due respect to forum members who believe otherwise (cuz they can climb hard sometimes) the modern wall party style is inextricably linked to the rebolting and dumbing down of El Cap routes. It's bad style and a show of disrespect to the creation.
End of masturbation.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:35am PT
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What superb craftsmanship there is in much of the writing above! How gloriously refreshing it is around this place. No queue on The Ranch indeed. Carry on, chaps.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:08pm PT
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Greg said:
"When my friend Drew finished leading the final 1/4" ascent of You Asked For It in Tuolumne last year (carrying a hammer & drill kit on lead to replace a bolt at each belay!), he asked a depressing question - "How many years before this thing is a sport climb?"
I just showed Moe your post and he said that his crowbar is still in servicable shape.
Climbing entreprenuers are a dime a dozen. The death of climbing will be from our own desrie to make money off of something we love deeply. Kind of self defeating really
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:15pm PT
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yo,
"They both have pride and a vision."
Yeah, but you should mention one has visions of chopping and pulling while the other has visions of power drils dancing in his head, and El Cap base renovations....two distinctly unique isions in my mind.
and this,
"With all due respect to forum members who believe otherwise (cuz they can climb hard sometimes) the modern wall party style is inextricably linked to the rebolting and dumbing down of El Cap routes. It's bad style and a show of disrespect to the creation."
you here your saying it's the "modern wall climbing parties" fault and not the one rouge individual who thinks they are above the rules of the game? Whatever man. I'd say the majority of modern wall climbers out there aren't trying to sneak their Bosches up the wall with a big bag of 3/8" SS. There are very few individuals out there who are guilty of truely and somewhat permanently "dumning down" a route...and they should be recognized. A style of climbing isn't linked to this phenomenon, a few people are, and they are the ones showing disrespet to the creation, and the rest of us climbers who prefer not to have our future climbing access and freedoms jepordized because they are too lazy to do it the old way.
And don't be trying to paint Chis Mac as some crafty buisnessman looking to rip off the masses. His intentions are true in my opinion, to provide infromation for people and interesting history that is catologued in such a fashoin nowhere else. The book is worth face value just for the FA stories alone.
This all makes me think of a quote from one of my favorite musicians...
"If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause, it's quite a bit like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gause."
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 04:18pm PT
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Mr. Lennox, Your points ring true all the way around. I share your frustration and sadnes at this situation especially since most people here lack the insight to see the Big Picture.
Chris Mac is nothing short of a capitalist pimp, spawned from the parent company Pacific Sun, to make a few bucks off the climbing world and contribute to destroy it during the process. This is similar to how McDonalds and other fast food chains have ruined any shred of culture that existed in America and now other countries. Erik Sloan is a tool of this evil machinery although I believe that in his own addled mind he thinks he's doing "good".
When Sloan retrobolts a route it is basically destroyed for a proper bolt replacer since after he's done with it no one can tell what's original or not. When this is complete the route is then "MacNamarized" and ready for a Supertopo. I find what Erik Sloan is doing to the cliffs of Yosemite is digusting, cowardly, deplorable, and selfish. He should be stopped. Someone should break all his fingers so he can no longer pull the trigger of the Hilti.
Supertopo and ASCA have never seen a penny of my money and they never will. In fact I remove ASCA bolts at my discretion and reuse them on first ascents.
On a side note
Mr. Karl Baba, I have begun to ignore most of your posts and will soon no longer read any of them. They are nothing short of fence-sitting worthless drivel, hot air from someone afraid to offend anyone. You have nothing to say. You avoid it because voicing any sort of opinion that may start a controversy would jeopardize your illegal guiding buisiness in Yosemite Valley, because you know that your potential clients read this forum.
more later, JB
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 04:24pm PT
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"Erik DOES listen, according to your account. He just doesn't do what you want. By this definition Bryan doesn't listen either."
yo, You are all wrong. Sloan does NOT listen. Bryan called me numerous times months ago soliciting my input and opinions regarding what he wanted to do. Huge difference there.
SLOAN=JERK
BRYAN=OK
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Sep 11, 2004 - 05:21pm PT
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Again Loom, we agree. as we have discussed before in person, climbing as a whole has been whored by the masses. Even Yvon Chuinard is in on it. Just yesterday I was in the Mountain shop with the "Mean Bean" Bernardo Rivenadayera and we were flipping through the Patagonia catalog. Yvon is selling a lined flannel for $130. sureley his clothing line is not geared for climbers at that price. He'd gladly use a photo of somebody climbing to help him sell it to somebody else in Manhattan though. Another example, every time Steve Shnieder climbs anything we all have to endure a slide show and a spray article in the mags so he can maintain a sponsor or whatever it is he gets out of his "climbing".Last photo of that guy I saw he was swinging around on a rope like band-o-kooks somewhere high on el cap, wasn't even climbing. Every time I pick up a magazine I see canned photos from Corey Rich of Chris Mac somewhere on El Cap. Every photo is of somebody toproping off a bolt on some hunk of choss. Is it truly nescessary to have a personal photographer with you on every ascent that you make?Is it realy nescesary to have a Ropegun bouldering pad to go out and paw at the little rocks? I guess I should be more like that, then every route I put up wouldn't get renamed on the second ascent, and I could make a quick buck off my climbing to boot. But I'm not into climbing for the money. Shnieder, Chouinard, Macnamera, Wright, etc. etc. these guys are obviosly into it to make a $$$ or fame or whatever it is they need.
As far as adventure goes I've found plenty of it in Yosemite. The past 10 walls I've done were first ascents I didn't see anybody on the whole wall when I did them either. I catch alot of crap for the way I climb in yosemite. Here's the funny part, the people who slander me haven't even repeated one of my routes. And the few that have been repeated have had Bolts added to them by the second ascent team, then were reported as first ascents to the spray-mags, with a full photo spread by a famous climbing photograper. Obviosly fame is a big motivater for some as well. When I wrote a letter to the editor about the lies I was dismissed as a fanatic.Take the commercialism out of climbing, as well as the illusion of safety and I'll guarantee there would be less people doing it.When I started climbing in '84 it was a way of life,the people I met had very modest means and followed the favorable weather from crag to crag.Now it seems to be more of an activity, like bowling as Loom said. I guess what I'm trying to say is: As long as there's money changing hands, climbing will only get more and more crowded and "safer". The pimps will make money and the adventurers will head further into the hills.and we'll all be wearing Prana "aproach pants" with five-tennies when we head out to Fashon Mountain.
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 05:38pm PT
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"When my friend Drew finished leading the final 1/4" ascent of You Asked For It in Tuolumne last year (carrying a hammer & drill kit on lead to replace a bolt at each belay!), he asked a depressing question - "How many years before this thing is a sport climb?"
Greg's honest answer would have been, "Years?! Drew my son, If we can get enough suckers to donate to ASCA, it could be DAYS, if you know what I mean" wink, wink.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 06:36pm PT
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I had originally posted a diatribe here under the assumption that JB was Jim Beyer. I jumped the gun because JB surfaced just as the WEML thread heated up. Unfortunately, he says he isn't Jim so all that writing is wasted. I'll just post the parts relevant to JB's complaints about me.
Maybe I should also reply to the post below as well. I don't respond to anybody who accuses me of anything that could get me in trouble in public. Duh. Denials of untrue accusations aren't believable and why incriminate yourself fessing up to any true allegations? If I was up to something, you can be sure that informing those who didn't suspect before would be good for business. It surprises me that folks who would never think of calling the rangers on their fellow climbers for any legal violation would find the idea of violating Delaware North's corporate monopoly so egregious that public accusations are in order. On the other hand, at least he's not suggesting that folks track me down and break my fingers.
I do use Yosemite as the centerpiece for my Legal photography operation. buy a print at
http://www.peaklightimages.com/PhotoHome
Here is my edited response to JB
JB
I posted about climbing on the internet for many years when I had a real job. My style has always been to seek understanding and positive communication. It's called Wisdom and it's because I choose to be happy and love people when I can. A Google groups search of Karl Baba on Rec.climbing will verify that.
I understand that we each have our own perspectives and that, from our own point of view, each perspective has some validity. That’s why I don’t come down hard on folks and say “This is Right and This is Wrong.” I usually find the truth is in-between. I find that some dirtbag aid climbers and right wing fanatics have a lot in common. They only see things their own way. Their crap doesn't stink but they can't stand the smell of everyone elses.
For me, the attitude of some aid climbers that "climbing new routes is not a public service," that most other climbers are unworthy losers, and hammering, drilling, nailing and other forms of destruction are OK as long as the climbing is hard and dangerous enough, and that climbing needs to be forced back into a culture of a few heavy drinkers living in their vans, is selfish and deplorable.
But I also happen to know many of the folks who think that way and I can't condemn them as people because I know them as friends/acquaintances, because I see their humanity, their humor, and their good qualities. I imagine that if I knew you that I would probably find the same about you.
The folks out there doing trade routes, working their way up through the crack circuit, and reading their supertopo book are real humans, great folks mostly. They are having what is for them, great adventures, and being safe enough to look their family in the face and say "I don't have a death wish. I just need some freedom, adventure and nature in my life."
I’m not an elitist and I don’t like elitist attitudes.
The truth is that I mean what I say here on Supertopo and those who know me know it.
Peace
Karl
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 11, 2004 - 06:57pm PT
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Karl, I actually read your complete diatribe about Jim and suggest you place it on the WOEML thread then delete it from here. This is not the place for it.
I am not Jim Beyer although we unfortunately share the same initials. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
As far as judging Jim as a person or just his style I think you should refrain from it until we hear directly from him what he has to say regarding his actions on El Cap. At this point he has become some sort of easy target whipping boy here at STF and it's not fair. Your post is actually meaningless because everyone here already has an axe to grind with him due to the recent hearsay.
Jim aside, I was surprised you did not respond to the allegation I presented accusing you of using Yosemite Valley as the centerpiece of you ILLEGAL guiding operation.
JB
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
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Sep 11, 2004 - 08:12pm PT
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Jim Beam, is that you?
gumbie-
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 08:25pm PT
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I don't have a stand regarding Erik's rebolting since I haven't knowingly run up against it yet.
It's often true that the devil is in the details.
Peace
karl
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drunky
Social climber
flagstaff,az
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Sep 11, 2004 - 09:29pm PT
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Oh I don't even know where to start...
Alot has been said and I can't even remember what has so if anything is redundant, sorry.
Erik Sloan is a great guy, proud climber and smart individual. To trash him in the community is unacceptable. Chris Mac-I don't know him personally but his supertopos guide is an acceptional piece of climbing history preservation. To me, guidebooks have always been more then just a bunch of topos, they have the ability to document and preserve history. Those who truly climb with climbing in their souls know this. It's a difficult discussion of who's got the right to do what? When first ascents go up, the first ascentionist decides. But what led to that decision? At some points it's simply a matter of money. The FA team didn't have the money for extra bolts, access to new technology. There is a belay on space that used to only be a single bolt, and an original belay on WEML up high that was pins. Was it a matter of time, motivation to push the limit, or money and lack of bolts and technology? Do we pass judgement? When that bolt went in 10, 20 30 years ago, it was sound; what is it now? Do you have so much spare time on your hands that you can research every placement on a route? Maybe people think that supertopos makes everything easier, my oppinion, you climb el cap, you climbed elcap! A1 or A5 who cares. you want to push the limits, phuqn pushm, I applaud you. But trashing people for performing unselfish acts of community service is unnaceptable.
I also have wavered on the zodiac issue. I commend those guys for what they are doing or have done. But pulling good bolts at belays? Can't really decide where i stand but leaning towards the side of bullsh*t. Do I want to see a sport route up el cap? hell no. Do i want to see routes trashed? hell no. (of course other than ring of fire, that christian drill fest should be erased from time). Do i want to see friends trashed for their efforts? HELL NO.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Sep 11, 2004 - 09:50pm PT
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I never said I agreed with Sloan's vision, simply tried to illustrate a prudent idea: your enemy sees you as you see him. Both sides, during a disagreement, wonder "What the hell is wrong with that dude? He doesn't f*#king listen!"
No, Lammy, I don't believe the one rouge (sic) individual causes more harm. Decades of heavy parties hauling too-heavy loads, drilling excessive anchors, throwing in convenient bivy bolts are a scourge. And people with that kind of toolbox up there, just guessing here, are the ones with the means to enhance non-drilled placements. I psyched myself up for months for the fifth pitch of the ZM, what ST calls A3R hooks. F*#king bomber, and the ice age didn't make em that way. Biggest let down of the year.
Stop reading Karl's posts at your own expense.
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ct
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2004 - 12:42am PT
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Chris Mac provides a invaluabale service to the climbing community.
As an individual, Chris is always stoked to climb, excited about climbing, and is always looking for ways to contribute to the community; composed by all of us. You criticize him for making money? If Chris did not create climbing guides that appeal to the most rapidly growing segment of climbers, then somebody else would most certainly do so. Perhaps somebody interested in nothing but the capitalistic venture of guidebooks for the burgeoning masses. Somebody who would look solely to further commercialize climbing for personal financial gain.
Instead, I see Chris running a nonprofit company, advocating and ensuring safe climbing for everybody, on the side. He advocates safety, and responsibility. He maintains a website whereby anybody with any passion for climbing can voice their opinions freely, and listen to what others have to say. His guides are filled with historical records that preserve and enrich the fabric of our collective culture.
As somebody who has seen Chris pour his energy and abilities into making everybody's climbing experience more enjoyable, safer, and thus more valuable, I take issue with those who would say he is in it for the dollar alone. I believe his motivations are vastly more complex, and he deserves a bit more credit. I'll put in my vote for Chris and everybody who assists him, the companies they run, the guidebooks they produce, the forums they maintain, the bolts they replace, and all the contributions I have seen Chris personally make to this community.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Sep 13, 2004 - 10:21am PT
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For most people climbing IS an athelic pastime not a way of life. Yeah maybe it was a way of life for Muir, but he had that rich wife to pay his bills. Maybe it's a way of life for sponsored climbers, but they are money pimps destroying climbing so they don't count, right? Maybe it's a way of life for a few homeless guys with no other interests or meaningful relationships, which is fine if that's what you're into, but you can't expect everyone to subscribe to that way of life.
To give sh#t to Couinard??? Give me a break. He wrote essays on ethical/adventurous climbing. Patagonia gives 1% of sales to environmental preservation. What have you done??
To give sh#t to CMac?? Just posting on these forums means you are taking advantage of resources he is providing to the climbing community.
There are ethics to climbing that many people, especialy noobs, don't understand and must be educated or climbs will be brought down to the lowest common denominator. This is a never ending battle as new climbers enter. Retro-bolt choppers are a key element toward maintaining those ethics. But if you get caught up in it too much you will only make yourself miserable.
For most people climbing isn't about being bold. It's about challenging yourself and enjoying the environment. It's a personal decision about what you want that challenge to be: hard bouldering moves, highball problems, 5.14 sport routes, X rated climbs, A5 FAs, climbing a trade route, TR in a gym. It's all good.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 13, 2004 - 01:20pm PT
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There was a server error and some posts were lost. I woke up and found that my browser still had some of the lost posts on screen so i'll paste them here. They started right after the post by CT above.
Peace
karl
_
Author:
David
Trad climber
From: San Rafael, CA
I wonder how Loom and JB reconcile the fact that someone like Tommy Caldwell is able to find adventure in Yosemite at the cutting edge of climbing while they only see diminished possibilities all around them. The difference in perspective is very telling. I wonder how they reconcile the fact that Caldwell hands out ASCA flyers at his slideshows? My goodness...how does he live with himself? I guess he's just a pimp like all the others, bringing down climbing to the lowest common denominator. Yeah...whatever! This notion that climbing your A3 trade routes with bad bolts makes you a bad ass is a truly pathetic vision of the future of climbing. IMHO
Ugh! I think Chris should get rid of this forum. It's been fun while it lasted but enough is enough.
Author:
Karl Baba
Trad climber
From: Yosemite, Ca
David
The fact that we don't agree in the forum isn't a bad thing. Better to argue over the internet than bolt and chop back and forth over the stone. Climbers have always had rabid differences and visions about climbing. This is nothing new at all.
The first topo book of Yosemite climbs was seriously condemned by some as dumbing down the adventure. Many folks thought cams were cheating when they came out. Hangdogging, rap bolting and even bolting from hooks, all considered to be progress by some, heresy by others.
Spew, slander, spray, posturing, narrowmindedness and it's opposite...they have all been part of the territory for years. Some will take the challenge to see both sides of the issues and rise above the fray, and some won't. The ones who won't think that would mean selling out and dumbing down the sport. The fact is, that every older generation of climbers thinks the next generation is dumbing down the sport.
One the other hand, Astroman gets soloed, the Nose gets freed in a day and also climbed in under 3 hours. More folks get killed than ever. And recently, during peak visitation, I got to climb Central PIllar, Serenity and Sons, as East Butt of Middle, without seeing another party (cept one rapping Serenity) or waiting for anybody.
The sky isn't falling. Enjoy life and choose to enjoy climbing. There really is room for everybody.
Peace
karl
Author:
David
Trad climber
From: San Rafael, CA
Couldn't agree more with that last bit. Life is too fricking short and there is so much rock. If you're not enjoying climbing you're doing something wrong. Don't blame it on anyone but yourself. I guess I've just grown weary of people blaming ST, ASCA or the boogey man for their own bitter and shortsighted outlook on life.
Re: Biting the Hand that Feeds You
Author:
10b4me
Trad climber
From: Where Fair Oaks meets Altadena
I whole heartedly support what Chris is doing with this site.
He is providing a service to the climbing community, and is hardly getting rich from the effort.
Additionally, what Chis, Greg, and the other ASCA members are doing is great. Don't think they are doing this as hedonists, but rather as altruists.
If you don't like Supertopo, find someplace else to whine. Sep 12, 2004 -- 09:39am
Author:
coiler
Trad climber
From: yosemite
Tommy , there's another guy we all have to hear about what he's climbing these days. Passing out safe climbing literature at his spray slide show. Gotta hear about him sending on bolted aid routes. I guess he needs his free patagonia fleece lined flannel too.
Here's a news flash-weather the bolt is new or old or if theres only one in 100 feet or 50 climbing is STILL dangerous. I think our young friend on TT illustrates it oh so well. TT is heralded in the super topo book as one of the "Safer" routes on the Captain...The captain is Not a safe [place to climb as a matter of fact climbing on any rock is NOT safe. give up on "Safe" climbing allready.
+++++++++++
Then came links to a 1995 rec.climbing post regarding the start of the ASCA
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Matt
climber
SF
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Sep 13, 2004 - 02:36pm PT
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i am no badass or heroic climber, nor do i pretend to be. i don't aspire to do FAs anytime soon, and i will die happy if i never drill or chop a bolt. having said that, i know an elitist attitude when i see one, and there are a few around here that ae easy to spot. (note: please don't feel like i've given you a compliment, having an elitist atitude does NOT equate with being somehow elite, it simply means that you are dismisive of others and hold a particularly uninclusive world view, which diminishes your own relevance even as you attempt to prop yourself up on your own shoulders)
to slander steve schneider for doing slideshows or imply tommy caldwell is a pussy and only chases bolts is somewhat silly in the minds of everyone but you and your 10 friends.
no doubt there is a huge marketing industry that promotes it's top dollar climbing gear, $140 shoes, "this year's" color thermal underwear, and anything else they can sell to us, and that industry is very definately interested in bringing new climbers into the fold. that industry obviously has a vested interest in sanitizing the activity of outdoor climbing, and i think that process has changed the public perception to the point that climbing is now considered a rather mainstream activity. the results are clear in the crowding of craggs and cliffs and the changing of places that we all feel so familiar with...
well guess what? they aren't going anywhere anytime soon!
so if you want to disrespect every climber that ever went to patigonia on someone else's nickel, ever graced the cover of a magazine, or ever gave a slide show to make a sponsor happy, then you'll have to convict every dirtbag that ever gave up his smelly old broken down van to join that corporate conspiracy, and that is a loooong list of climbers, and it's going to include a lot of your heros too, unless you are the type that just idolizes yourself and maybe a few of your 10 friends.
you can hate and diss everyone, and what of it? you will be gone someday and your ethics will die with you, simply because you have chosen to marginalize your own point of view. your kind will be remembered for being unwilling or unable to pass your ethics on to later generations because you were bitter and dismimissive.
i am not even saying that you are always wrong, just that being a dickhead doesn't make anyone that's not inclined to listen to your ideas want to stop and listen to your ideas.
and by the way, giving a slideshow is somehow different that being in a video? so we can conclude that you are way cooler than anyone who ever gave a slideshow or has appeared in a video? hmmmmmm...
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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Sep 13, 2004 - 03:03pm PT
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Matt, nice note. But it probably won't matter. There are lots of people out there that are motivated primarily by anger and hate, and this anger and hate gives them the motivation and incentive to do things they otherwise wouldn't do.
The hate incentive category probably includes vile scum who behead truck drivers and journalists as well as people who use the incentive to do "great" things, such as difficult/dangerous first ascents, hit the quarterback with lethal force or become a successful lawyer or business man.
Hate is very powerful. It can inspire fear or anger in others which can be mistaken for respect. Haters will never get what they really want, which is respect.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 13, 2004 - 04:13pm PT
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Karl,
you missed my post...
It went something like:
"you guys are a bunch of dried up windbags"
;-)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 13, 2004 - 04:53pm PT
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"Dried up Windbags"? What kind of flame is that? I blow your flame out with my wind. Tap, Tap no earasies. Climb up a crack. if you got the sack. ;-0
25 years ago, there was plenty of gear for sale and many heroes too. What has really influenced the popularity of climbing is the advent of Gym climbing. You used to need some rare stone to get exposed to climbing. Now you can get addicted at any major urban center.
But don't worry elitists. In 10 years gas will be over $10 a gallon as fewer folks will make 400 mile weekend drives. In 20 years, life itself will be so epic that folks won't have to seek out fear and adventure on the rocks as much. I know you can't wait.
Hope I'm wrong on that one.
Peace
karl
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 13, 2004 - 04:58pm PT
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eh not necesarily directed at you Karl. I like your moderate stance.
Mostly directed at the folks whinning about how climbing is so popular these days. The same diatribe creeps up once every few months or so and reminds me of a Talking Heads line...
"your talking alot, but your not saying anything. say something once, why say it again?"
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Sep 13, 2004 - 05:01pm PT
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Karl has got everyone fooled. He may be the most cynical and pessimistic of the bunch. ;)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 13, 2004 - 05:42pm PT
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I didn't think you were flaming me Bone man. Just foolin around.
As for David's comment. I'll let you know in early November if the world is coming to an end or not.
Peace
karl
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2004 - 09:51pm PT
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My other long-winded post got dumped by the server.
Open your eyes and look down at the route that climbing has taken in the last 20 years, now look up and use your routefinding skills; which way do you want to go? There will be more people either way, but exponentially more up that one fissure; the one with all the bolts and colored tape next to every jam; the one with weatherproof beta guides/advertisements epoxied to the wall at every clip. Are you seduced by the circus hucksters and gymgods yelling that there's plenty of room for everyone on those ledges; are you a sucker?
The influx of people who take up climbing is growing faster than the overall population growth rate.
The U. S. will have nearly 400 million people by 2050. How many people will be climbing in 2050? More or fewer if there were no gyms or overzealous guidebook authors or retrobolters?
Our actions, or inaction, in our response to these pimps in the temple will affect the rate of growth and the type of growth. Will it be positive or negative? We can help decide if there will be more or fewer of those who come to climbing in the future who revere the mountains. By doing nothing we can ensure a future where more come to climbing to have their fun, get a workout, and make their own buck off of it.
The percentage who view climbing as an athletic activity is growing while the percentage who view it as a way of life continues diminishing. Do you think those that dabble in climbing have the same reverence for the mountains as you? The same reverence for the unknown; for adventure?
The lifers will have a limited ability to relate with and educate the growing numbers of dabbling tourist climbers. More bolts will sound good to them. They have their own work or other activity related community they are a part of. They don't hang out with you. How are you going to influence them and instill traditional ethics? Lectures in the gym? A couple pages in a guide book? Inevitably the changing climbing demographics will result in a huge change in ethics.
Gyms and guidebooks are responsible for the "Disneyfication" of climbing. Because of this, adding bolts to existing lines will eventually become generally accepted.
As more and more people dabble in climbing, the crowds themselves will become too inconvenient for the crowds. More and more they will seek out obscure and less crowded areas. But these areas will not remain obscure and less crowded as guidebook authors will happily explain everything, down to the last nubbin.
And the retrobolters will be more than happy to make them safer and more convenient.
And on and on. The gyms will churn out more and more certified belayers, the guidebooks will give more detail about more of what were once obscure areas.
Many of the people making a living doing the thing they love are loving it to death. I'm sure there are pimps that love their whores.
Larger numbers, just in themselves -- will lead to more wear and tear -- the most popular areas getting trashed -- and solitude being harder to find.
Larger numbers of people who do not see themselves as part of a community of climbers ultimately will mean cultural and ethical disintegration.
These days I don't have any problem finding uncrowded climbs, solitude, or adventure. I enjoy being part of a community of people that shares my passion for climbing and love of the mountains. If I want solitude today, but can't always have a climb or area to myself, oh well, no problem, tomorrow I will. If someone has put up a route with bolts every 8' I'll be thankful that all climbs aren't like that and go climb something else. If you know your way around you can find what you want or need today or tomorrow. What about the days after tomorrow?
No matter what we do things are going to get very crowded in the mountains. But -- if we didn't have the pimps in the temple; if the retrobolters and how-to manual writers were met with derision everywhere they went, if writers of overly detailed guides were viewed the way magicians view those who divulge Houdini's secrets -- wouldn't climbing be better off in the near and not so distant future?
Scott Lennox
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 13, 2004 - 10:12pm PT
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::yawn:::
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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Sep 13, 2004 - 10:24pm PT
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Scott, you are delusionally optimistic if you think people here will actually read the above and consider it seriously. The trend has been set and is in motion. You are not making a "difference". I say give it up. Instead of wasting your time here go out and remove any bolts, at your own discretion (which I think I would trust), that you find offensive. It is way more satisfying if nothing else.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 13, 2004 - 10:47pm PT
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If you really want to make a difference, then go out and blow up a bunch of REI's across the country.
Or take the moderate approach and start a "The Truth" like add campain about REI and companies like The North Face. Then hit Hollywood and do some Michael Moore type sh#t bashing Tom Cruise and Sylvester Stalone.
If itis really the mainstream you are concerned with, then you gotta attack the mainstream Supertopo isn't teh mainstream....the X-Games is.
reminds me a Trey Anistasio lyric,
"if you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause, it's quite abit like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze."
did I post that here allready? oh well carry on.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 13, 2004 - 10:53pm PT
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Fortunately, dire prediictions about the future, past and present, have a way of not coming true. New factors balance out old factors and the whole thing comes into balance like an ecosystem.
At least I hope so, because I have my own bleak view of the future when I look at the phenomena of peak oil, budget deficits year after year, and increased militarism and wide availablity of bio-weapons in the future. That's not even counting our environmental problems catching up with us.
The solution that I hear you suggesting is something like the worst case situation at crowded surfing areas, where the macho elite threaten and bully the outsiders and noobs to keep their turf to themselves. I wouldn't waste my life and good karma being a part of such a thing and I think it would only bring negative consequences to our sport. It's just as likely that the masses of new climbers would rise up and not take that kind of crap and influence the LE to clean the "climbing is our lifestyle" crowd out of the crags for good.
Here's some platitudes: Have faith, live and let live, don't get your panties in a bunch.
Yes, things are going to change, things have already changed, and you are already probably doing things that a previous generation of climbers frowned upon. The worst case scenario is probably something like already exists at popular European crags. How bad is that? Depends on your point of view and how hard you are resisting change.
On the other hand, unexpected changes might make it hard for any of us to go climbing and the next big fad (or rash of gym lawsuits) might distract the masses for starting up a sport that's scary and painful even when it is safe. And no matter how safe it is, a hour hike puts a lot of folks off and several hours of hiking put off a lot more.
Bolts might be an issue in the future but, at least where I climb in Yosemite and TM, the only real proliferation of bolts and holes that I find are drilled by those elite folks climbing 5.12 and 5.13 sport climbing, or the guys still putting up new El Cap routes. Otherwise, there are quite few retrobolts and making a big deal of climbs that have had bolts replaced is a total exaggeration. Those bolts used to be safe, now they are safe again. (I know I said this before but nobody has answered) what's the diff? That in itself isn't going to spark some stampede the crags. Sure they're an issue now for some, but it was just as intense 20-30 years ago.
You could chop that bolt behind Texas Flake (and I wouldn't complain) or even the free variation bolts on the changing corners and summit pitches of the Nose, and it wouldn't make a dang bit of difference in Nose traffic.
Chop the bolts on Wheat Thin and you won't have to wait as long for that one, but prepare to wait longer for Outer Limits. Just don't blame poor Jim Bridwell for bolting the crack and spending his life guiding newbies into the sport at Josh. Blame Chris Mac instead.
You (like me) are just getting old, and with that comes the tendency of every generation to deplore the changes that they forsee the next generation heading toward. You know, stuff like long hair, liberal attitudes toward sex and pot, music without violins, cams, rehearsing hard routes, and the whole lot.
Few would now suggest shunning Donny Reid or George Meyers before him, or Roper before him. Do you really thing that knowing the length of the pitches and how wide they are is that dramatic a difference?
Maybe I've said the same thing too many times. Sorry,
Peace
karl
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Sep 13, 2004 - 11:23pm PT
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I have to say that I agree in general with what Scott is saying but I am not so sure that it is as dire as he states. He is right that guidebooks and overbolting contribute to the 'Disnification" of climbing. There is no doubt. The conservative ethic is strong in the US though, and more than ever young climbers need experienced vets to show them right from wrong. I essentially learned how to climb by reading Rock and Ice and Climbing magazines cover to cover through high school. There were no mentors around to learn from who knew what they were doing to steer me in the right direction.
Too often more experienced climbers stick to ourselves. We eschew the gumbies and scoff at their inexperience instead of offering egoless assistance and guidance. Traditional climbing is in the bones of American climbers and Scott is proving a useful tool by raising the issue. It is just too bad that his tone is so elitist and snotty. Scott you are clearly an articulate and intelligent man. Lay of the condescension and your message will be loud and clear.
Greg
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 14, 2004 - 02:07am PT
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I believe it is true that no one ever got rich making climbing gear... Chouinard himself stated this. As for making a killing on clothing, it was the 72 Chouinard catalog which bemoaned the fact that the fashionable skiers drove the price of clothing out of the reach of the climbing community, and that Chouinard was looking around the world for sources of inexpensive and durable clothing suitable for climbers. It was the seed of an idea which grew into Patagonia. While you can complain about the prices, when you consider the length of time the clothing is used it can be quite inexpensive... I still have the first Patagonia fleece sweater I bought 20 years ago or so, my only complaint is that it is inappropriately warm for my new California setting.
Likewise, producing climbing guides is a very market limited enterprise. I doubt that the many small independent presses were able to sustain the production, certainly Falcon has consolidated the once hugely diverse press of these ideosyncratic books.
There are people who, from time to time, are organized enough to get something done of value to the general climbing community. Chris is one such person. The climbing community had completely missed the need to "maintain" the routes which were getting old, or were inappropriately or ineptly equipped. Chris organized a group of climbers, and sought support from the climbing community, to go out and fix something which was very broken.
Having spent a lot of time learning the routes in detail, the information was collected and organized into a new guidebook "paradigm" which is SuperTopo. I don't see the evil there, or the hyperpreditory business plan. Chris and Greg for sure, and their partners are climbers first, and are interested in doing things for climbers. They are not independently wealthy either, so the fact that they support their work, and themselves from the proceeds of their work does not strike me as exploitative of the climbing community. The community has benefited from their labor.
The controversy over guidebooks in the US is as old as guidebooks. Roper had similar philosophical debates regarding the publishing of his Valley guidebooks. I doubt that his decision to proceed was based on a plan to popularize climbing and increase the market for his guide, thus making him wealthy off the profits gleened from the masses.
The reasons that climbing is currently so popular are probably more complex then the simplistic arguements which have been stated in the many threads in this and other forums; and are beside the point. fact: climbing is popular. Looking in the Fall 2004 Patagonia catalog on page 54 I was truely shocked to see that the Gendarme on the Kain Route on Bugaboo Spire had a bolted anchor. When first climbed the route in 1984 we were among the few climbers in the Bug's, and we had the spire all to ourselves on our ascent day. In 1995 we climbed it and at one point were waiting on a ledge with about 12 other climbers, some going up, some coming down, but massive congestion. The rap station under the Gendarme sported a huge wad of slings from the many ascents and descents.
The popularity of the climb is understandable. The practicality of the bolts is understandable. The fact that so much has changed in 20 years is regrettable, but the 1984 route was not the 1916 route either. We didn't go up in nailed leather boots using huge ice axes and a hemp rope after travelling overland for days shooting our food as we went. I don't think it detracted from our experience that we used modern means for the ascent, it is a quality route recognizable nearly 90 years after its first ascent.
Climbing in North America must come to terms with its aging. The routes in the established areas are not the adventures they once were, nor can they ever be again. The climbing community must learn how to cope with this change. There are certainly routes in the Valley that, when ascended by the means of 2154 will be recognized as great climbs...
I would hope that the aging of North American climbing would be with grace; it could certainly be otherwise. One thing which gives me hope is that we all derive something fundamental to our existence from climbing. From that common thread a common vision might be woven, or at least a shared respect for our visions.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 30, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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Got to say, this TR http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=909.0 really brought up some of this threads issues all over again. Why drill around 2 pitches of a route? Bizarre, even from what I'd known Sloan to do in the past...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 30, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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i wasn't standing in his aiders,
but it sure seems,
chickensh#t.
some people flow downwards according to the dilution of courage.
paths are free you know. anyone willing can tramp.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 30, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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FU@&, some of these post suggest that if you take a photo of El Cap and show it to someone, you are some sort of evil child of Satan. Selling a topo is like selling a road map and if you ever bought a road map, you too are evil for ruining things for the people who like getting lost in their cars, er, on their horses.
Sure, some guy who wants to replace bolts may be going at it a little heavy handed but some of the posters here need to get a grip. Climbing is a hobby and maybe a sport. It will change as time goes on and there is absolutely no way to stop that change. Whining about it only makes some of you people look like old farts who reject all change except when they themselves can profit from it. You're all capitalist pimps because you bought gas for your car from BP. Now accept it and try to work with it instead of freaking out and saying bad things about map makers and road pavers.
Dave
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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Hate to tell you this - America has been discovered, and there are some granite walls out there.
With obesity epidemic and financial support for the Parks and Forests dwindling, I hope more people discover that there is life enriching activity beyond their couches and internet cafes. If these activities cause rising body counts, the public will demand a stop to it in this very litigious society that we live in. If an old timer can show folks the ropes, provide them with a guidebook, and maintain the fixed gear, that may mitigate the carnage and provide a critical mass of public support for protecting these place for adventure, real or perceived.
We all have a different degree of risk we are willing to accept. Your mundane is my thriller. So laugh at me, soak me for a few bucks, you still can't tarnish my joy at clawing my way up a lowly trade route. Bet I get a whole lot more joy out of this life. He who dies with a smile on their face and inspired the most smiles for others is the biggest winner.
Let me go back on line and see what other prodcuts I need to buy from the "sell-outs"....thanks for helping me break out a little beyond my cubicle life.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jun 30, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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I don't think it matters WHAT you're climbing, whether a Trade Route or some Runout nightmare. I've always been told & agreed that you don't alter an existing route, unless it alters itself, like a piece falls off, or some such.
Hey, I hope you enjoy "clawing your way up a Trade Route". I just hope that you will consider the features of the stone, and use them as much as they can be used. Chicken bolts are just that. Chicken.
Yeah, I've been scared, so what? I think scared is part of the program.......Didn't drill my way out, though. That would be Lame.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 21, 2015 - 04:55am PT
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This,BUMP - for an anti-Sloan, vote.
The thread, gives context to the two threads currently trending on the occasion of the Face Lift, and a request for $$, to pay for a"new?" rope for the circus swing, and one that asks for approval an appreciation of un-zen smillee Jerc, eric spelled with a K.
In the years I've known of him and his Additions? to climbing I've seen him as a warning of the things to come. . .
(Lots and lots of 'climbers' - Smug ,entitled in the prime of the narcissism of youth. . . )
Well those things are here now and eric with a K is a sorta king of the weak kneed gym spawn who want to reduce the risk in climbing to Nil.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be safe - safer than what's been fine to marginally safe to outright suicidal- deadly in your face. . . For years that's the way it was and is ...but it is changing. . .
Climbing is a Verb even when hanging around in space, that's movement.
Fifty years of concentrated debate and increasing standards and technology have shown climbers to err, on the side of less holes in stone = better, more desirable style of the process.
Any troglodyte can hammer their way out . . . . What's the point your missing the whole game.
Go build a wooden house if you want to hammer a lot and leave something permanent in your wake .
Houses serve a purpose that benefits humanity, the reason that you gave for your antics twelve years ago or was it ten (as I said?)
We endeavor to climb,
To survive and experience enlightened thought if not enlightenment out-right.
Reducing the joy of the experience by adding a cheater bolt is wrecking the place for every single person who follows.
That seems to be breaking the one universal rule:
D0 N0T F0uK the place up leave no trace, add only dust and sweat and blood .
gain insight - if you can not proceed, without resorting to changing the route or the challenge of the route, you must retreat - before you wreck it for some one more stout and up to the challenge.
I know Erik is well meaning and a very solid bloke who's mastery of politics and how to blow smoke up the right Aztecs (0LD 0NEs) butts. (And swety pies too #lovYoga) is always on display.
It is sad that times are what they are, (or maybe you all agree with addition of reduced risk at any cost to the point that cracks become bolted romps.)
The once staunch proponents of the code,? they, have lost their blood lust for keeping
The Myth of purity alive.
In getting up the things we get up, no body is pure, but to strive for better style and less impact and evidence of our passage was once the most important part of the game, not - top out at all costs.
Now dose any of that make sense?
Buy your own damn rope swing !
you punter,
get a grip on those tits your growing
and think before you hammer anything!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 21, 2015 - 05:25am PT
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I am surprised at the sheer numbers of virgins and priests here. Hold on to your sheep.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:38am PT
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Good stuff from the way back, when we actually discussed topics.
You want purity?
Go find it, it isn't in any guidebook.
It's been done, bragged about and sold already.
And for the record Coiler, it was the third ascent that renamed Wild Apes.
I did the SA the week after you put it up.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:53am PT
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How about the no cams or chalk purity of Dresden climbing. Arnold and Albert were instrumental in establishing the Dresden ethic, they then came to Patagonia and put bolts next to cracks.
Purity is what suits people at a particular time and place....subject to change bro.
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skitch
Gym climber
Bend Or
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Sep 21, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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Loom
Climbing has been transitioning from an adventurous way of life to an athletic pastime
Loom: Do you tell strangers in the bar you are an "adventurer"??? Probably.
Face it climbing is a hobby.
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| Messages 1 - 47 of total 47 in this topic |
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