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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 27, 2006 - 05:33pm PT
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Thanks, John. Once there's more information about what actually happened, and the harness and belay loop are examined, we'll hopefully know more, and learn something from this.
The Black Diamond website doesn't mention urine as a possible cause of weakening - see below. Urine contains ammonia and uric acid, and perhaps other chemicals that might be damaging. An additional stress. Perhaps that is something for investigation, and if it is an issue, a warning to users?
Anders
CARE AND MAINTENANCE
♦ Harnesses must not come into contact with corrosive materials such as battery acid, solvents, gasoline or chlorine bleach.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 27, 2006 - 05:43pm PT
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Terrifying:
“On Monday's climb, Hewett said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an overhanging ledge.”
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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John thanks for posting this, it’s what I needed to read. Even the 90% cut through appeared strong enough for body weight?
Weird
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:12pm PT
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Roger,
I think "snapped" may be a bit or artistic journalism. Keep in mind, it may have simply unwrapped. This would be a total stitching failure. Considering the broad terms being used with no images, it gets very difficult to simulate.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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It's not the technical issues of how it occurred that struck me. It is thinking about hanging under a roof, on an overhanging wall, probably looking up, scoping the missed moves and figuring out the sequence, and then free falling.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 27, 2006 - 07:43pm PT
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The official investigation will reveal what happened soon enough with or without all this speculation, though. Kinda freaking me out at this point. Even as a nobody east-coast climber who never knew Todd, it just seems respectful to wait and see what the facts prove to be. A tragic nighmare scenario, regardless.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 27, 2006 - 07:50pm PT
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I would tend to agree with you cintune, but it IS known that the frayed nature of Todd's harness prompted a comment only days earlier.
We don't need to wait for an official verdict before being prompted to inspect our gear and, if in doubt, throw it out (or at least sell it to a gym climber).
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 27, 2006 - 08:03pm PT
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Yeah, I didn't mean to sound censorious but I guess it did. Just hope it doesn't take forever for the official word to come out.
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John Black
Social climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 27, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
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A bit OT, but when was the last time you heard about a well-known climber having equipment malfunction near the Leaning Tower leading to a fatality?
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Oct 28, 2006 - 10:00am PT
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John Black:
November 23, 1998
Ironic...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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I've been pondering retiring my 6 year old harness that's looking pretty haggerd, now it's an easy decision.
Thanks John.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Oct 28, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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I mentioned this in another version of this thread, but might be worth mentioning here. I saw on the BD site where they say something about never seeing a belay loop fail, but it happened at a climbing gym here in Phx a few years ago. Guy who had a pretty worn harness, leads a route, belayer sucks up the slack at the top to lower him, belay loop let go, he goes 25 feet to the floor (shredded rubber surfacing). Luckily for him, he walked away. I would guess (I didn't see it) that the belay loop was pretty visibly worn at the time.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Oct 28, 2006 - 02:31pm PT
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steelmnkey, what the heck was he tied into his belay loop for? But I guess it's better for him to have suffered for his lack of respect for his gear than for him to have dropped someone he was belaying because his belay loop failed.
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TYeary
Mountain climber
Calif.
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Oct 28, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
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Thanks, John. The test info helps ease the mind a bit. But it's still confounding. It just leaves you with your mouth open , scratching your head. This kind of thing isn't supposed to happen.
Tony
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Oct 28, 2006 - 06:34pm PT
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Years ago I used to climb with a Forrest Swami and seperate leg-loops (and a tied swami before that) which required two pieces to fail before you took the long ride. When I came back to climbing a few years ago after a long hiatus I was sort of surprised to see the modern harness design that depended so much on the one belay loop. No redundancy (6000 lbs test or not) - just seems not well thought out. Personally I may tie up a super-tape donut for a backup, even if the stats say not to worry.
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doug redosh
Trad climber
golden, CO
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Oct 28, 2006 - 11:02pm PT
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i agree with the above. I have never trusted the modern harness with the belay loop...no redundancy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 28, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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Just because its there doesn't mean you have to use it. (Where have I heard that before???) Anyway; I tie the rope like I clip my locking biners right around the swami AND the leg loop strap.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 29, 2006 - 09:39am PT
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A long time back I was climbing in a Whillens ("nutbuster") harness that I had used for years. It was very thread bare after many vertical miles of use and abuse. It never bothered me that I would occassionally hear a thread pop now and then. One day at the base of our intended route my partner said he wouldn't rope up with me if I used that harness. I retorted it is fine! What's the problem? Without another word he reached over and grabbed the leg loop strap and with very little effort he pulled it totally apart ripping every stitch with a sickening velcro like sound. OK I said let's go shopping. To this day I am greatful to John 'JP' Pearson for being concerned enough to make his point absolutely clear. I remember also a day when Rusty Bailie said that the time to retire gear is when you doubt it at all.
I quess my point is don't be afraid to speak up, loudly if neccessary. Gear is cheap life is not.
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:06am PT
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I've always said those belay loops were bad news. Just one more link in the chain... that could fail. I still use a 2" swammi and a set of leg loops for free climbing (good for chimneys and OW). Most friends back up that sewn loop with a piece of 9/16 on their harnesses(obviously I recomend that practice). On my wall harness I still have cut out the belay loop, it's just one more link in the chain. This event backs that up for me. I might have dissagreed with Todd on bolting, but I'm still bummed he took the ride... My condolences, he had talent for sure!
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