Discussion Topic |
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 27, 2006 - 05:33pm PT
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Thanks, John. Once there's more information about what actually happened, and the harness and belay loop are examined, we'll hopefully know more, and learn something from this.
The Black Diamond website doesn't mention urine as a possible cause of weakening - see below. Urine contains ammonia and uric acid, and perhaps other chemicals that might be damaging. An additional stress. Perhaps that is something for investigation, and if it is an issue, a warning to users?
Anders
CARE AND MAINTENANCE
♦ Harnesses must not come into contact with corrosive materials such as battery acid, solvents, gasoline or chlorine bleach.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 27, 2006 - 05:43pm PT
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Terrifying:
“On Monday's climb, Hewett said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an overhanging ledge.”
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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John thanks for posting this, it’s what I needed to read. Even the 90% cut through appeared strong enough for body weight?
Weird
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:12pm PT
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Roger,
I think "snapped" may be a bit or artistic journalism. Keep in mind, it may have simply unwrapped. This would be a total stitching failure. Considering the broad terms being used with no images, it gets very difficult to simulate.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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It's not the technical issues of how it occurred that struck me. It is thinking about hanging under a roof, on an overhanging wall, probably looking up, scoping the missed moves and figuring out the sequence, and then free falling.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 27, 2006 - 07:43pm PT
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The official investigation will reveal what happened soon enough with or without all this speculation, though. Kinda freaking me out at this point. Even as a nobody east-coast climber who never knew Todd, it just seems respectful to wait and see what the facts prove to be. A tragic nighmare scenario, regardless.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 27, 2006 - 07:50pm PT
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I would tend to agree with you cintune, but it IS known that the frayed nature of Todd's harness prompted a comment only days earlier.
We don't need to wait for an official verdict before being prompted to inspect our gear and, if in doubt, throw it out (or at least sell it to a gym climber).
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 27, 2006 - 08:03pm PT
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Yeah, I didn't mean to sound censorious but I guess it did. Just hope it doesn't take forever for the official word to come out.
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John Black
Social climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 27, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
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A bit OT, but when was the last time you heard about a well-known climber having equipment malfunction near the Leaning Tower leading to a fatality?
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Oct 28, 2006 - 10:00am PT
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John Black:
November 23, 1998
Ironic...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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I've been pondering retiring my 6 year old harness that's looking pretty haggerd, now it's an easy decision.
Thanks John.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Oct 28, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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I mentioned this in another version of this thread, but might be worth mentioning here. I saw on the BD site where they say something about never seeing a belay loop fail, but it happened at a climbing gym here in Phx a few years ago. Guy who had a pretty worn harness, leads a route, belayer sucks up the slack at the top to lower him, belay loop let go, he goes 25 feet to the floor (shredded rubber surfacing). Luckily for him, he walked away. I would guess (I didn't see it) that the belay loop was pretty visibly worn at the time.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Oct 28, 2006 - 02:31pm PT
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steelmnkey, what the heck was he tied into his belay loop for? But I guess it's better for him to have suffered for his lack of respect for his gear than for him to have dropped someone he was belaying because his belay loop failed.
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TYeary
Mountain climber
Calif.
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Oct 28, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
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Thanks, John. The test info helps ease the mind a bit. But it's still confounding. It just leaves you with your mouth open , scratching your head. This kind of thing isn't supposed to happen.
Tony
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Oct 28, 2006 - 06:34pm PT
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Years ago I used to climb with a Forrest Swami and seperate leg-loops (and a tied swami before that) which required two pieces to fail before you took the long ride. When I came back to climbing a few years ago after a long hiatus I was sort of surprised to see the modern harness design that depended so much on the one belay loop. No redundancy (6000 lbs test or not) - just seems not well thought out. Personally I may tie up a super-tape donut for a backup, even if the stats say not to worry.
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doug redosh
Trad climber
golden, CO
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Oct 28, 2006 - 11:02pm PT
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i agree with the above. I have never trusted the modern harness with the belay loop...no redundancy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 28, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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Just because its there doesn't mean you have to use it. (Where have I heard that before???) Anyway; I tie the rope like I clip my locking biners right around the swami AND the leg loop strap.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 29, 2006 - 09:39am PT
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A long time back I was climbing in a Whillens ("nutbuster") harness that I had used for years. It was very thread bare after many vertical miles of use and abuse. It never bothered me that I would occassionally hear a thread pop now and then. One day at the base of our intended route my partner said he wouldn't rope up with me if I used that harness. I retorted it is fine! What's the problem? Without another word he reached over and grabbed the leg loop strap and with very little effort he pulled it totally apart ripping every stitch with a sickening velcro like sound. OK I said let's go shopping. To this day I am greatful to John 'JP' Pearson for being concerned enough to make his point absolutely clear. I remember also a day when Rusty Bailie said that the time to retire gear is when you doubt it at all.
I quess my point is don't be afraid to speak up, loudly if neccessary. Gear is cheap life is not.
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:06am PT
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I've always said those belay loops were bad news. Just one more link in the chain... that could fail. I still use a 2" swammi and a set of leg loops for free climbing (good for chimneys and OW). Most friends back up that sewn loop with a piece of 9/16 on their harnesses(obviously I recomend that practice). On my wall harness I still have cut out the belay loop, it's just one more link in the chain. This event backs that up for me. I might have dissagreed with Todd on bolting, but I'm still bummed he took the ride... My condolences, he had talent for sure!
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oldtopangalizard
Social climber
ca
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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Scary to look at Largo's download. Think of all the times we got away with that worn out, sand filled, sun burnt JT gear. Don't climb much anymore, but I'll have made it to 50.
P.S. - Good advice on throwing away the old stuff. Threw away the old Whillans about a year ago. I had not used it for years, but it was used on group trips for small(no such thing when it is your ass) topropes. Christ, my kids probably used it when they were little.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:30am PT
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My policy is I belay off the belay loop.
I tied in and rap off the two tie in points. Any falls on the rope, or moving around during rappelling creating a sawing action. Six years on my old harness frayed about 30% of the lower of the two tie in points ... I retired it, but its a reminder as to the reason to double up.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:45am PT
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Good post JL,
I don't put much stock in statistics but I like using facts for an educated evaluation of any situation.
I sometimes work in a business where I work up high, often times with people that have never been higher than the roof on thier home. Becuase of this fact, we tend to use equipment that is easy to use and many times this equipment has working load requirements far greater than anything seen in the climbing world.
Still, people get hurt, and die.
While it is important to use the proper equipment for the proper job, it is more important to understand the risk(s) of any particular situation and act accordingly.
Ok, so the manufacturer of my harness states that I may use my belay loop to rappel. I understand this, but I also know from experience that even the most intensive rigging may fail under load causing possible catatrophic events, if not backed up by an alternative system.
Therefore, I have always chosen to rap using the loop in my harness belt and leg loop connector webbing with a biner connecting the two.
The manufacturer of my helmet says nothing about wearing it when belaying under a climb I know has loose rock but, I do it anyway.
I don't always make the best choices and one day it may cost me my life but, I hope I take the time to consider the variables when attempting life risking ventures and act accordingly.
I need to think aqbout what I am doing when I am doing it. I cannot think about my car, my bills, my job, ar ANYTHING else except fininshing the knot in front of me, clipping that anchor, checking my partners knot or any one of a hundred different problems I'm involved in AT THE MOMENT.
I use myself as an example because I don't like to preach, and I know people will do what they do the way they like to do it. However, I need to stick around for awhile uninjured so I try to be aware and keep it safe for me and my partners.
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SnowyRange
Trad climber
Fox Park, WY
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Oct 29, 2006 - 11:17am PT
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This is why I always had another sling twice around my waist webbiing with a water knot and made sure my locking carabiner was through that sling as well even if I used the belay loop. I have done this for every harness I have owned.
Also, although it is a pain to rap with, be old school and tie a prusik around the rope and your waist webbing and slide the prusik with your upper hand while rappeling, especially when rapping with heavy loads. If you lose it the prusik will lock and stop you. That alone could have saved Todd if his belay loop or entire descent system failed.
And when climbing, always tie your rope around your waist webbing, never just into the belay loop or carabiner. I see that too often from the gyms to the crags.
You must always stack your failures as close to none as possible.
I just think of my mantra that I tried to teach to anyone I climbed with......"the climb is not over until you are at the car drinking a beer". You must, repeat must, be vigilant.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 29, 2006 - 11:22am PT
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Twenty five or so years ago, for some reason, I bought a seat harness. It was not out of the package five minutes before I had 1" nylon sling on it backing up the crotch loop. Then I looked at what it was connected to. A single pass of hard 1" webbing secured by very densely stitched bar tacks. Now I can imagine a dull needle could do a lot of damage making bar tacks. So now the strength of the finished goods is subject to how good the manufacturing process is at the moment those goods were made. That means there has to be recurring acceptance tests on the production line. Frankly I don't know why it is anyone makes these things. But maybe that is just one of my many problems.
There are also manufacturing problems in making simple sling. But the product is structurally simpler, there is little/no hand work in it, and probably 50,000 miles a year of the stuff is made and tested. I use my old swamis as tow ropes. Best tow rope you will ever find. Have not broken one yet. Still .......using two swamis made from different batches of sling is not a bad idea at all, as has been suggested above.
Or so it seems to this observer.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 29, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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Copied from my post on the other thread on this topic:
By clipping into the tie-in points (as Warbler and others have done, and I always did, too), you simply add an element of redundancy to the system, with no additional time or effort. Redundancy in safety systems is always a good thing. For instance, who wants to belay or rappell off a single anchor, no matter how bomber that anchor seems to be?
EDIT: I always thought of the "belay loop" as just a piece of webbing that holds the two parts (the waist belt and the leg loops) of the harness together.
EDIT,EDIT: A nicely rounded pear-shaped loccking biner will keep triaxial loading to a minimum - well within the carabiner's breaking strength.
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Rob Robinson
Trad climber
Chattanooga, TN
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Oct 29, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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It is too easy after having climbed for decades without serious incident to become inured to the ever present danger lurking just beneath out feet every time we venture into the vertical world.
My take on the (now infamous) "belay loop" has always been that the only thing the damn thing is good for is to keep the leg loops from slipping down your legs.
When the belay loop first came out I never used it. I've always felt more secure using at least one (preferably two) locking carabiners threaded through the leg loops and waist harness for belaying or rappelling.
That said, what happened to Todd could have easily happened to any of us.
I recall during a first ascent a number of years ago hearing a funny tearing/shearing sound, looking down at my waist, and seeing my harness literally coming undone and slipping down my legs. In my haste to get started on the route I had only secured my harness using the Velco stickie (another convenience of many modern climbing harnesses) -- I had forgotten to thread the buckle. And this occurred even AFTER I had read about Lynn Hill literally falling out her harness -- and decking -- in a similar incident while climb in France 15 or so years ago.
I'm sure this tragic and shocking accident is going cause all of us, and as well the litigation senstitive industry that supplies us our tools of the trade, to revisit issues of safety and backup systems.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Oct 29, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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The way I see it, most belay loops already have redundency built in. All this banter about needing a second belay loop, clipping through the tie-in loops, etc. is unnecessary.
Here's the deal: almost every belay loop out there is made with a double loop of high-strength webbing. There are multiple bar tacks and preimeter sewing holding it all together. I think it was locker who mentioned sewing a second loop around the outside of an existing belay loop. Well, the manufacturer already did that for ya'll.
The critical single, non-redundent points in most rappel setups are: the rope, carabiner, rappel device and harness waistbelt. (I suppose you could add leg loops, which are each a single thickness of strength-bearing webbing.)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 29, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
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I've made a number of posts in different forums about the importance of redundancy, but it is not an absolute principle that must be applied in every situation. Sometimes, I think our responses aren't realistically proportional to the actual risks involved. Not too long ago, I saw someone who had tied an extra backup for their belay loop struggle at a crux sequence with a single piece between them and a bad ground fall. In my opinion, this person misunderstood the real risks and was attempting to control the wrong variables. Some of the discussion on harness safety strikes me the same way.
The fact remains that the belay loop on a harness that hasn't been worn to tatters is one of the strongest links in the chain and is, consequently, one of the last candidates for redundant treatment. Kolin's tests suggest that, if you were really careful, you could conceivably survive a rappel with a new belay loop cut 90% through. (Do not try this at home please.) There's nothing the matter with tying on an extra loop to back the belay loop up, of course, other than the prospect I already mentioned that it might encourage you to use the harness past its safe working life. But really, if you attend to the condition of your gear, I think it would be better to direct your energy to other, more productive, types of redundancy.
I do think it is worth adopting practices that minimize wear to the belay loop. The tie-in points on modern harnesses have various types of wear protection and are better suited to abuse than the belay loop. For example, I think it is better to girth daisies through the harness tie-in points, rather than the belay loop. Daisies girthed to the belay loop keep it from rotating and so continually impose wear at the same spots, especially if the daisy or daisies are left on semi-permanently. Same idea for those who extend their rappel device: the extending sling should be threaded through the harness tie-in points rather than girthed to the belay loop.
I also think it is important, when belaying the leader from stances, that the biner connecting the belay device to the harness pass through not only the belay loop but also the loop formed by the climbing rope tie-in. (The climbing rope loop should be tied so that it is roughly the same size as the tie-in loop.) Not only does this supply redundancy for the belay loop in a situation where the forces could be far higher than rapelling loads, but much more importantly, it transfers the load of a leader fall to the anchor without imposing forces that would tend to tear the harness apart.
As for prusik backups, I think it unlikely that they would have been of any use in this tragedy.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 29, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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It seems likely to me that a prussic backup would have avoided this accident. Unless after the belay loop failed, the prussic didn't bite quickly enough and stop the fall immediately. If prussics are allowed to slide much at all, they can quickly burn through. Makes me think we need to make our prussics out of a material with an extremely high melting point.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 29, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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Some random thoughts:
I was thinking back to my old Whillans harness and to where the biner attached to the harness. Stitched under the webbing was a couple of layers to thin nylon bias tape. The biner would rub against the tape rather than the webbing and the stitching thus reducing the wear on the webbing. Belay loops do not have anything and there is alot moving back and forth which affects the bar tacking as well as the side stitching on both side.
As in a previous post, I currently have my daisy chain girth hitched to the belay loop. With my old expedition bod harness which does not have a belay loop I girth hitched the daisy chain to the leg loop and put the waist webbing through the next loop in the daisy chain. I might try this and elliminate the belay all to gether as I do not use it for anything else but my daisy chain.
Recently I picked up some of Mammuts Dyneema slings. I was thinking that the way they slipped one end into the other bar tacked them and covered it with a thin material cover was nice. I have decided that I am going to remove the cover because it prevents me from inspecting the bar tacks. I do not think the "protection" the cover afords the bar tack is much and having the ability to examine the bar tacks is more important.
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Tahoe climber
climber
Texas to Tahoe
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Oct 29, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
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My vote is as follows:
I use the belay loop for belaying and rapelling. I believe it's one of the strongest pieces in the system.
From the sound of it, a prusik or any other backup rappelling method would almost certainly have saved Todd's life.
I get a new harness every two years, max.
I don't think that using a redundant loop along with the belay loop, OR clipping a biner through waist and leg loops (like you'd tie in to climb) is necessary - in fact, the manufacturers say it is LESS safe that way, and I trust them.
The advice about protecting the life of the belay loop above is sound: girthing the daisy about the waist/leg loops instead of the belay loop is a great piece of advice.
Thanks, and RIP, Todd.
-Aaron
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 29, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
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For all those who are arguing that belay loops don't need redundance, as they are plenty strong, I have two comments. 1- Todd's belay loop apparently did fail. 2- If he had been clipped into the tie-in points, this accident probably would not have happenned. This is not in any way meant to be a criticism of Todd or his techniques, which seemed to be in line with accepted standards. Clipping into the belay loop alone (although quite a few times I have done it, as I know they are ridiculously strong), has never passed my intuitive scrutiny. I sure hope we can find out what led to the failure of Todd's belay loop. All the laboratory tests lead to the conclusion it should never happen. So, what caused the failure? And shouldn't we build in redundancy whenever possible?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 29, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
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Locker:
From KP's Black Diamond blog:
"Is this incident going to cause every climber out there to start wanting two belay loops, or tieing a backup supertape belay loop in their current harness or throw their harness away altogether and buy a new one immediately? It shouldn't. Reputable manufacturer's make burly harnesses—bottom line—and don’t forget that there are some negatives/concerns about using two belay loops at once in some situations (i.e. tri-axial loading carabiners, etc.)—not good."
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 29, 2006 - 03:44pm PT
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The reason I feel pretty sure a prusik backup would have been of no help is that the knot has to be released in order to grab, and letting go of the rope at the moment of rappel failure is contrary to all instincts. Once you get moving, the knot won't grab. Tests done by the caving community indicate that even people who know the failure is about to happen can't reliably release their backup knots. (These tests were on prusiks placed above the rappel device, but once the belay loop breaks there's no distinction. And of course in the unlikely case that the knot did grab, you'd be hanging upside down from leg loops no longer attached to the waist loop.)
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Robb
Social climber
Under a Big Sky
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Oct 29, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
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Not to sound condescending, but I never felt safe w/ trusting in just one connection. I always wore a three wrap of one inch tube webbing run through the belay loop & tied in. Not that uncomfortable, but very easing on the mind.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 29, 2006 - 04:05pm PT
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rgold- you may be correct in that analysis of the probable response from a climber when (s)he needs to release the prussic . But there's at least a possibility , and if there's a knot as there should be at the end of the rope, the fall would a least be limited. This subject deserves more study.
All of the lab tests I have seen/read, do not take into account the thousands (or perhaps million in the case of an old harness used by a very active climber like Todd), of repeated weightings and unweightings of the belay loop. Since the loops are usually one piece of webbing sewn concentrically within itself until it's two-layers thick, what you have is a tiny sawing action with each cycle of weighting/unweighting. If particles of grit or aluminum oxide work their way between the layers of webbing or into the weave of the webbing itself, what would be created is a microscopic sanding action that may, over many, many cycles, weaken the thread to the point of failure. A test needs to be set up to evaluate this. It's my opinion, that two single layer loops, sewn independently and loosely tacked one inside the other, will most likely yield a longer-lasting loop.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 29, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
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I regularly belay off a single belay loop, but this has certainly got me to thinking. I have two belay loops on my aid climbing harness - one for each daisy. When soloing, my Grigri hangs from one belay loop, and my sewn sling and wide-gate autolocker backup crab hangs from the other for redundancy.
The belay loop is without doubt one of the strongest, if not the strongest, part of your system. At least it is while it's still new.
I'm going to order a couple new belay loops from John Yates. I think my loops are still in decent shape, but it wouldn't hurt to replace them.
You can click the link below to read about two nylon gear failures I have had recently, both of these being adjustable daisies breaking. Perhaps you have had nylon fail? You can click here to [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=273295&f=0&b=0"]share your nylon climbing gear failures.[/url]
Cheers,
"Two Doughnuts" Pete
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 29, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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Tahoe Climber:
" clipping a biner through waist and leg loops (like you'd tie in to climb) is necessary - in fact, the manufacturers say it is LESS safe that way, and I trust them. "
I assume you meant to say is unnecessary. Otherwise the post is confussing.
If clipping a biner into leg and waist loop is less safe I would like to know why. Can you dig up some references to this? Back in the day when we used a single piece of 1" tubular webbing to make a harness this is what everyone did clip a locking biner between the leg loop and the waist and then belayed off of it.
BTW does anyone know the history of the belay loop?? I am trying to think of when I first had a harness with one.
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rocknron
climber
Big Pine, Ca.
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Oct 29, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
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From the description of Todd lowering, stopping and then his belay loop breaking, if Jimmy Hewett had done one more lap it just as easily could have been his death. Your climbing partners gear is as important as your own.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Oct 29, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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I am another one who always had second thoughts about the belay loop...never liked it. I clip in the same way I tie in. I like redundancy...In general it seems modern climbing puts less importance on redundancy than what I was taught as a young climber. The only non reduntant element used to be the rope which was treated with a good deal of reverence (don't step on the rope!!). It seems so silly in a way to build a bomber reduntant anchor system and then add a non redundant link like a belay loop. Locking biners give me the creeps as well at times. We used to use two biners with reversed gates which was both locking and redundant. The whole six biner reversed gate rappel set up was bomber. There also seems to be a more casual regard for falling and belaying in general which I believe has its roots in sport climbing (lots of falling, top roping and working routes). Prior to nice comfy harnesses, old time swamis weren't vary comfortable to hang in hence one used to lead a pitch and either set up a belay for your partner or rap off. Either way one maintained more control of ones situation on the rock. Two of my closest calls in climbing came when I felt the need to "modernize" at the expense of tried and true methods. The first incident came one Thanksgiving quite a few years back when I finaly convinced my self to use a locking biner in place of the first two biners of my six biner rappel set up. It was on Lunatic Fringe. The rappel rope had snaked its way into the crack as it often does on this route. I rapped down got a jam pulled into the crack and freed the rope. I was just about to weight rope again when I thought I would check my rappel set up. To my shock the locking biner was the only thing still attached to my harness! I looked to the right and there were the other four biners attached to rope dangling to my right. I quickly grabbed them, reclipped, and finished the rappel. But for a well developed check and recheck everything safety mind set I would have been gone. The incident haunted me for a while. This never would have happened with two biners and reversed gates. The biner I was using was a piece of X@#$#@ made by either Black Diamond or Chouinard. It was a pearibiner with the gate at its hinge (perhaps someone remembers them). This alone was bad engineering but to make matters worse the screw gate was so loose that it would rattle open (as I discovered) through normal use. Needless to say I never used that biner again. The other incident was a belaying accident. I had just led TKO at Arch Rock with Bruce and Ellie Hawkins. Bruce was a long time climbing partner and I trusted him completely. I had been making an effort to change my somewhat conservative old school thoughts about falling and belaying as I was experimenting more with sport climbing. Hey its super safe I told myself. Its steep and there are bomber bolts for protection. Piece of cake! Still every time I got to the top of routes I had this inkling of apprehension as I sat back on the rope and let the belayer take my weight (again I was used to setting up a belay or rapping). I would hang onto the other end of the line before finally relenting. This day I vowed to be different. Relax I told myself. Just lean back and let your belayer do his work...what's he going to do, take you off belay? So when I topped out I just leaned back to let my belayer take me and with a sickening sense of accelleration I was gone. Bruce had taken me off belay. I screamed his name as I hurtled earthward in a giant back first swan dive. I fell the entire length of the route and them some (the first belay is 40 ft.of the deck). Just as I was wondering what would hit first my back or my head I was righted and came to gentle stop just before a ledge. Bruce and Ellie had managed to grab the line at the last possible second and hold on. The only ill effect (other than my mental state)was a dime sized bruise on my heal where it had kissed the ledge. Pete Takeda and Joe Hedge had witnessed the whole thing from down near the road. They were shouting, "Should we get a paramedic!" How could this have happened? I swear Bruce and I had discussed what we were doing prior to my ascent and fall. I had even brought a sixty meter rope to make sure there was enough line to reach the ledge via lowering. That little fact almost became my downfall (a fifty meter rope would have come tight before I would have ledged out). Needless to say we were all pretty shaken. I did another lap high on adrenaline (put him back on a horse!)but after that we just had to shut it down. To this day, everytime I get lowered on a route I remember that moment--vividly, and I'm back to grabbing the other end of the line and self belaying myself until I make contact with my belayer before I will give myself over to their control. Whats the lesson to be learned from Todd's death, from my and others close calls? Anyone who has climbed a lot learns that sh#t happens. Stuff that you would never think possible--such as belay loops breaking. You can never be too careful. Redundancy is your friend as is being aware of what is going on around you. Don't just blindly trust others...its your ass on the line when you are being belayed. I always check out my belayer, especially at a public crag with a lot going on. Make sure you're comfortable with what he or she is doing. There have been several times when I noticed my belayer had failed to lock his belay biner. I check my knot and harness like clockwork every time before I get ten ft off the ground. Our climbing community is small. A loss like Todds hurts us all. Be careful and be smart.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 29, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
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I am cross posting from the edges thread.
The Black Diamond belay loop tests were done on a pull test, not a shock load.
So if you are screaming down a fixed static line on a grigri then come to a fast halt you are basically shock loading that belay loop? Different result.
I'm actually prohibited from discussing Todd's accident publicity until NPS finishes their investigation, so please don't ask me any questions pertaining to Todd's accident.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Oct 29, 2006 - 09:36pm PT
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Werner:
are you also prohibited from discussing the investigation itself? It would be fascinating to know what is involved, and of course how long it will likely take. I certainly understand if this is also prohibited, but if not and you are willing please let us all know details of the actual investigation. Thank you so much!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 29, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
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Hummer
I'm not an investigator. I don't know what they are doing.
We will just have to wait until they do their thing .......
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Oct 29, 2006 - 09:41pm PT
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Thanks, man!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
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Chappy's post is good common sense.
Apropos my earlier post regarding what may have caused belay loop failure: In light of the fact that Jim, Todd's partner, and he had both noticed visible wear on the belay loop, I'm thinking failure is probably going to be found to be attributable to a combination of many small shock-load cycles which worked to loosen the threads in bar tacks and stitches whose integrity had been compromised by the thread being cut through on the surface. In lab conditions, abraiding the surface threads may still yield relatively high pull-strength results for a single pull test or even a few tests, with stress applied evenly and slowly. On the other hand, if you first subject the loop with cut stitching to several thousand cycles of light body-weight shock loading, I think the threads in the bar tacks and stitches will gradually become looser in the webbing, ultimately to the point of failure.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:11pm PT
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I do not have much faith in the NPS unless you have a mechanical engineer on the team.
JDF
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:24pm PT
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Sounds as though someone should come up with some type of cycle test machine vs this straight pull scenario. they are used in shoe testing and more...
There must be some engineers out there that can build it.
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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It seems to me that when using an ATC on the belay loop it helped to introduce a 90 degree twist into the rope and this did not happen when using the ATC on the leg/waist combo. Likewise if the gri gri is used on the leg/waist loop it introduces a 90 degree twist there, where it does not do that on the belay loop. Anyone else notice this?.
So, when I use an ATC I will always put it through the leg/waist loops and when I use a gri gri I put it into the belay loop.
What I can apply from this sad incident is to be sure that next time I use a gri gri (on the belay loop) I will also girth hitch a short swen runner through the leg/waist loop and clip that to the gri gri 'biner. I've alway backed up my mini-traxion this way....
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 29, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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John Stannard tells about his adding a loop to back up the stitched 'belay' loop. My method too. Or I run the tie in around the waist band too.
Mark talks about biners unclipping and missed signals. How many close calls have we all had, even after double checking?
The worst possible outcome is to think that you are climbing with a belay and find out, an instant too late, that you are free soloing.
In some circles you hear folks talk about very rare 'Black Swans:' a low probability, but very high risk outcome. Some focus on the low probability, some focus on the high risk.
A long time ago, someone was justifying to himself some risk he was taking on the basis that 'you only go around once,' (70s beer commercial urging letting go) with the emphasis on 'only'. Rik Reider and I looked at each other and restated the ad tag line with emphasis on the 'once:' much closer to our sense of the balance.
I don't know what happen to Todd. Whatever it was, the outcome is tragic.
However, eventually, a Black swan will pass by. Redundant checking; redundant equipment is worth the time and effort.
Or free solo.
You only go around once.
Roger
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 29, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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Graham, the testing you are thinking of is fatigue testing. SOP for many material tests. Not hard to at all to set up at all. Actually they are kinda fun. (I used to be an ME).
The interesting part about fatigue testing is that the results are many times far different that doing a static or dynamic test. Of which there is absolutely no correspondence between the two.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 29, 2006 - 11:44pm PT
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Was Todd rapping with a pig?
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Dirk
climber
Leadville, CO
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Oct 30, 2006 - 12:15am PT
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You people are nuts!
Chicken Little sez, "If you don't trust you gear, maybe you shouldn't be climbing."
Understand the weakest links: pilot error (as happened to Todd), weather, objective hazard, and last and least equipment failure. Please send all discarded, retired, or unlucky harnesses to yours truly, I am not kidding.
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NoRushNoMore
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 02:50am PT
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On the suggestion to girth daisies through the harness tie-in points, rather than the belay loop. Might be not a good idea.
Lead rope will wear your daisie very quick.
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bones
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 30, 2006 - 04:03am PT
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I find it funny when people say, "never did like 'em", as if your like or dislike of a belay loop changes it's level of safety. I hear people say the same thing about seat belts.
Also like the "back in my day" comments. Back in your day you used quarter inch button heads too. I'd like to think our equipment has advanced since then.
I think rgold has pretty much covered my thoughts on this, but I'll add a little anyway.
A new belay loop is rated to about 25kn (at least mine is). It is about that strength no matter what direction you pull it.
A new belay carabiner is rated to 23-25kn, but only if loaded in its major axis. If put through both tie in loops, it could be loaded in more than one direction. Most have a minor axis strength of about 9kn. So too me, it seems like the belay carabiner has a bigger potential for being the weakest link in the system if used in this fashion (how many carabiners have you heard of failing? How many belay loops?) Because of this, if I were concerned about redundancy of the belay loop, I would simply back it up with some cord or webbing. This is a simple, cheap, and unobtrusive way to achieve redundancy WITHOUT weakening another part of the chain (the belay biner).
I've seen numerous people obsess over the redundancy of some single part of the chain, while being completely oblivious to another part which was a disaster waiting to happen. Remember, we don't get to choose which part is going to fail in any given situation, so most likely it will be the weakest link.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 09:47am PT
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Elcapfool-
DITTO.
All these people need to go back the gym and stat indoors where the ground is padded and the belayers are supervised.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 09:57am PT
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A question.
Do any one know the strength of a sling or harness after 5, 10 or 15 years of storage in a dark dry place?
The author of the article has tested a lot of old gear that have been outside several years and I didn't think the results was that disconcerning. All slings would actually hold a normal fall even though being heavily abused.
I kind of doubt that a sling or harness would be dangerous to use after 5 or 10 years of dark dry storage. Am I wrong? Have anyone done any testing?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 30, 2006 - 10:09am PT
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"On the suggestion to girth daisies through the harness tie-in points, rather than the belay loop. Might be not a good idea.
Lead rope will wear your daisie very quick."
Hasn't happened in my case. YMMV.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 30, 2006 - 10:26am PT
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Which do you suppose gets more wear in a lead fall, rope or the harness?
Lots of people mention how many "years" their harnesses have. Should they be thinking how many "miles" of lowering, rapelling?
How about all those old school no loop guys. Do you use that harness several times per week in the gym?
Harness = cheap. About 1/3 price of a single rope! Has non-redundant buckles (3 or 4). I bet the average climber could replace rope for 4 post climb bar tabs.
Check your plastic (including the plastic wrapped around that tree - especially the inner part against the tree).
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 30, 2006 - 11:29am PT
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Good questions, Trad. It would be worth a little study to determine what actually leads to harness decay. In particular, it would be interesting to find out if there are any factors other than age and UV degradation that lessen the strength of any part of the harness, but which can't easily be detected by visual examination.
Being curious about these things does not equate to being fearful, as some have suggested. My intuition tells me Todd's accident may lead us to greater knowledge. It may be as simple as "Just inspect your harness, and replace it when there are signs of wear", but there is also a possibilty we've overlooked something intrinsic to current harness design as it relates to actual field use and conditions.
I suggest people reconsider Scared Silly's post up-thread.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 30, 2006 - 11:32am PT
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Since the prussic has been mentioned as a rappel backup, how does one go about
using it while rapping with a Gri Gri (which requires both hands), as Todd was?
What rap-backup devices work with a Gri Gri?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 30, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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Can anyone ascertain whether the belay loop is being tested for acid or other contamination?
As worn as it was, I'm still having a hard time picturing one failing, especially when
BD's test took close to 800 lbs to break one that was cut 90% the way through.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 30, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
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Hardman,
I have a hard time believing it as well. But as Werner pointed out in another thread (too many threads on this!)...
BD's test was a static pull test. If Todd was rapping a static line with a gri-gri, going fast, and came to an abrupt stop it would have generated higher forces then just bodyweight.
Lots of people here talking about belay loops, but nobody has really mentioned how the static braking that the gri-gri offers probably also contributed to the failure.
Still no excuse for a guy like that to be climbing in ratty gear, it's a shame.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
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Still haven't heard...was he rapping with a pig? If not, a sudden stop after going over a roof with a Grigri on a static line is unlikely to generate more than 2-3 times body weight. And do we know the brand and model of the harness? A photo of the belay loop would be helpful.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 30, 2006 - 01:03pm PT
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Ain't No - that's what I was thinking. I can't imagine him jolting to a stop anyway.
Why would anyone do that, especially on a static line? Not exactly a fun thing to do...
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Rob Robinson
Trad climber
Chattanooga, TN
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Oct 30, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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Has anyone heard who the manufacturer was, and which model harness it was?
Re: the use of a nylon loop vs. biner comments. Why use a nylon loop subject to cutting, wear and tear, chemicals and heat vs. something metal if there is an option. The "convenience factor" never seemed worth the safety trade off, at least for me.
It seems inconceivable that Skinner would have used what sounds like was an obviously worn out piece of equipment like that. There has to be more to this story and we're just not getting it yet.
(Hello to all of my old friends at BD in SLC, formerly the Diamond C ranch. I'm sure you're on the edge of your R&D and product testing seats watching this thread unfold given the past....)
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 30, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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I do everything off the belay loop, but I have been backing then up with another sling.
If they have the belay sling they need to use a electron microscope to determing if the fibers failed in tension or got cut.
I have one here on campus.
JDF
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 30, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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I don't think we've even heard whether the belay loop was still attached to his harness and recovered or not. Lots of info like that and make/model will have to wait until the formal investigation concludes its work unless someone happens to know what he's been climbing in lately.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 02:51pm PT
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Someone asked about webbing stored in the dark for 5 or more years, then tested. In the case of dynamic ropes, A ROPE HAS FAILED THE DROP TEST AFTER 5 YEARS IN THE DARK. This was relayed to me from a friend who heard it from a Petzl rep.
Petzl (may have dealer wrong), put a rope in a dark, dry closet for five years. Pulled it out. Failed first drop test. This is a dynamic rope. Decay rate is probably different for static web.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:02pm PT
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Belay loop snapped on rappel. Was found later, near body.
Harness was old, should have been retired, was never designed to be used in that condition.
It was like riding a motorcyle w/ really bald tires (less than 1mm of tread). Common practice, but significantly increases probablilty of an accident.
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DHike
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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Heard from a reliable source while in the ditch this past weekend that the belay loop was considerably worn from daisies constantly being girthed to one point on the loop. Loop is almost in fixed position at that point, not able to rotate freely and not able to reduce same point of wear. Webbing-to- webbing wear, as well as usable life of harness exceeded, is the most probable scenario.
About clipping into tie-in points only; the same scenario could occur in the weakening of the webbing, as the tie in points are not able to rotate freely, thus will wear unevenly causing weak points. Lead falls obviously cause wear on the tie-in points as well.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
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Sorry T, I don't believe it. Can you show us the link?
(ie: "A ROPE HAS FAILED THE DROP TEST AFTER 5 YEARS IN THE DARK. This was relayed to me from a friend who heard it from a Petzl rep. ")
I heard it from someone who heard it from someone who was talking to a guy....
If you can find a link it would be appreciated. I have seen a rope separate under bodyweight on rappel. I suspect it was battery acid but the rope owner claimed his rope was perfect. It spun my attitude around 360 on the use of rope bags. I'm 100% rope bags now and start the spring off with a good wash of the trunk every year as well. 'Cause if a 5 gallon bucket goes into my car after being sat on the ground right where some hillbilly had just temporarily put the ratty, sulferic lookin' old battery from his Camaro....well, you just don't know.
With a rope bag, if you see hole in it, you may have to toss the bag and or the rope, but at least you'll be aware of a potential life threatening issue.
As we do it, the rope is pretty much the only seriously single piece of pro we cannot (or do not unless you are one of the few climbing on twins) back up. OK, I don't back up my harness either, and was climbing 2 days ago on my 10 year old harness cause it looks still looks good. But- I'm re-thinking that too since I am so pro-active on replacing all of my other gear like slings, biners, cams etc etc.
Regards;
Bill
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:56pm PT
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A rope is not going to fail a drop test stored in a dry dark closet for 100 years.
JDF
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
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I am skeptical about this report as well. A rope, unused but stored in the dark 5 years is no good?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 30, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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Todd may not have been sponsored anymore, but he sure is going to help sell a lot of harnesses this year...
Sad but true, my wife and I are allready shopping around for new ones and my old ones are going in the trash.
I still trust belay loops though.
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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It appears they found the belay loop:
By Keith Lober, Emergency Services Coordinator
October 30, 2006
(Embedded image moved to file: pic08546.gif)
On the afternoon of October 23rd, dispatch received a telephone call
reporting a fatal climbing fall. Jim Hewitt reported that he and his
partner, well-known climber Todd Skinner, had been working on a first free
ascent of the "Jesus Built My Hotrod" route on the overhanging west face
of the Leaning Tower. Skinner's fall occurred when he was rappelling.
Hewitt told investigators that he had been above Skinner when he fell. As
he was rappelling on the low-stretch ropes that they had fixed on the
route, Hewitt came to Skinner's Grigri descent device on the rope at the
point where he’d fallen. The Grigri had a still-locked carabiner attached
which had been connected to Skinner's harness. When Skinner's body was
recovered, the belay loop on his harness was missing. The next day,
rangers recovered a broken harness belay loop in vegetation at the base of
the wall. It was very worn at the spot where the break had occurred.
Hewitt later told investigators that Skinner was aware that the belay loop
on his harness was in a weakened condition prior to the climb, and that
they had talked about its poor condition three days earlier. For further
details, click on "More Information" below.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
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Based on the fact that Todd's harness was "worn out", I would suspect that if he had been using a carabiner threaded through the waist and legs, the risk of equipment failure would not be gone. The webbing on the waist and legg loops could have been worn out from the biners locking thimble flipping through it and Todd would still have been using it. The locking thimble could have been marginal and Todd would have been still using it. The carabiner could have been worn through from rope friction and Todd would have been still using it.
The gear was shot and needed to be retired the day before he died.
Remember everybody, that ratty gear that has "Never Failed You Yet" can't fail you again untill it has failed you once.
I am tiring of these threads that come back to this same conclusion. Unless there is a new revelation, I think I will let this go and hope you all can too.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 09:11pm PT
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I agree with the if you start having doubts about the gear get new gear philosophy. Good old fear can be useful. When things get hard or right before you fall are you worried that your harness is still good? After you fall, or lower off, do you worry about that fuzzy section of that three year old rope? The trick is remembering that you were scared of your gear once you get home.
If you find yourself buying too much gear take up horse shoes or bridge.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 09:21pm PT
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Hey Tom
How's it going ......
I'm scared to go climbing now after reading all this stuff about gear weakness and breakage.
Some guy even said in some thread here that he looked underneath the anchor bolts on the nose and they are worn half way through.
It's all over man, I'm going out and buy me a Werner Ladder.
Will that work?
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 30, 2006 - 09:21pm PT
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I need to buy a new one too.
I checked it tonight. No serious wear.
But my waist is getting too thin. The buckles are minned out.
It is a Petzl. You can tell where the buckles are when tightened. No "wear", but how strong is it? Hmmm.
Elcapfool - That was a classic!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 30, 2006 - 09:23pm PT
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werner, don't forget there's always canoeing on the merced. not a bad passtime when the teenaged nubiles are hanging out near the bridges....
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Oct 30, 2006 - 10:01pm PT
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I'll get in touch w/ friend to confirm (or correct as the case may be). This was a few years back. The detail I remember was 5 years in the dark and drop test, not a lead fall.
That last article totally contradicts what I heard. It was "employee heard directly from company rep", not overheard in a bathroom after 12 beers in some camp site.
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DHike
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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"I'm scared to go climbing now after reading all this stuff about gear weakness and breakage.
Some guy even said in some thread here that he looked underneath the anchor bolts on the nose and they are worn half way through.
It's all over man, I'm going out and buy me a Werner Ladder."
Ha Ha. LMFAO!! Dude, that's classic.
I have a full rack 7'20'24'28'40' of 'Werner' ladders with special leg levellers for sale if you're interested. Nylon rope may need replacing,,,,
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:01am PT
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coz, speaking truth to power, YO.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:02am PT
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But jeans are cotton, no?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:02am PT
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Hey coz
I believe we all understand that. What we fail to understand at times that sh#t can break. I know you have chastised me for using my shitty ratty old gear and to up grade it in the past and I thank you so much for that. You even told me to get rid of those old wiped out cams I was climbing on and you replaced them for me with new ones.
I wish that happened to Todd as I've been just as nonchalant about gear as he's shown in this type of accident.
Thanks for being such a good friend, Werner
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john hansen
climber
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:05am PT
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Is there perhaps a bit of superstition involved..'this harness has always held my falls'.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:09am PT
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Despite Scotts definitive and final truthfully strong post: I bet this thread goes for over 100 more posts, beyond this first 100, which will basically be duplicates and rehashes of the existing posts on this thread.
Office pool anyone? :-)
Regards:
Bill
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:11am PT
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Is this accident the result of thread failure?
Are the threads the weakest link of a nylon runner?
If I take a sling and put the bar tacks on a belt sander how hard is it to cut through all the threads?
Was their a roof near the accident scene?
Could he have swung into an edge that cut the belay loop in its weakened state.
JDF
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 31, 2006 - 02:30am PT
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Juan,
a sling wrapped as a belay loop holds body weight WITHOUT any stitching at all. a short piece of scotch tape is enough.
try it, take a pice of 3/8 or 1 inch webbing, wrap it three times and secure with a small piece of scotch tape. then stand on it, it'll hold by friction alone.
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SnowyRange
Trad climber
Fox Park, WY
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Oct 31, 2006 - 09:07am PT
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Climbing is not a lazy mind sport. No superstition, all reality. You don't get to push reset and try again.
Really hot solo no pro climbers never fell until they fell and then we say "thats so sad".
Check your gear everytime you climb, replace it when it needs it. If you don't have that judgement, stay home. Simple.
I have never ever known of even a poor climbing bum that couldn't afford a piece of gear when he wanted it or needed it.
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Oct 31, 2006 - 09:30am PT
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Dhike wrote:
"It's all over man, I'm going out and buy me a Werner Ladder."
Ha Ha. LMFAO!! Dude, that's classic.
I have a full rack 7'20'24'28'40' of 'Werner' ladders with special leg levellers for sale if you're interested. Nylon rope may need replacing,,,,"
Not so fast there young man - ladders need replacing too. March of '05 I was tip-topped out on a 20' fiberglass extension ladder when it shattered like a light-bulb and sent me on a 20' back-flop (like a belly flop sorta) into a pile of rocks. Broke my back in 5 places, bruised a bunch of stuff like liver (oh no!) kidneys, etc and partially collapsed a lung. Luckily I dodged the Fool-Killer that day and wound up with basically a slap on the wrist. My epiphany from that experience is that you should not get on a ladder when you notice the fiberglass delaminating (duh). When the ladder actually fails it is not a gradual thing - not a groaning, creaking slide to the bottom - one second you're up there and the next you're spacewalking. I hope you can learn from my experience and realize that ladders are not the bastion of safe-climbing. Safe climbing is all in your head. Also, day-in/day-out, life close to the ground is what's really dangerous.
RRK
PS thanks for all the thoughtful posts on this thread. You've really got me taking a serious look at my gear again
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Oct 31, 2006 - 10:18am PT
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Criminy, rock climbing is way safer than bloody Werner ladders!! A good friend spent 6 weeks in the ICU becasue an aluminum Werner ladder collapsed under him...equipment failure dat. Todd's harness was pilot error, sadly.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 31, 2006 - 10:25am PT
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Hi jim, how long have you been in Foxpark?
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Oct 31, 2006 - 10:34am PT
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Jeez I finally figured out what a “Werner” ladder was. Thought you were all talking about some kinda “Bachar ladder” thing that WBraun came up with.
Anyway you can easily have Pilot error on one of those when you’re too lazy to climb down and move it a few feet. Instead you lean or rock-it around or try and make some bouldering type move with it. usually causing me a twisted back or pulled shoulder.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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"SIMPLE SO YOU ALL GET IT.
WEBBING WEARS OUT IF YOU USE IT TOO LONG.
JUST LIKE JEANS, THEY BUST AT THE SEAMS WHEN THEY'RE OLD AND FADED.
RETIRE YOUR HARNESS WHEN IT'S OLD.
THAT FU?KING SIMPLE.
SCOTT COSGROVE."
Scotty you may be missing the point here.
While this over and over and over examination of a tragic accident and it's cause may seem useful, I personally think it's just a way for everyone to contribute an opinion. There is some value in that. The insight into the individual psyche of these typical ST posters (myself included) is good, bad and ugly but, mostly entertaining.
Will all this talk stop another person from injury/death doing what we do? Probably not. The person running out to buy a new harness may get creamed crossing the intersection to an REI when instead he would be blissfully safe hanging in his tattered old harness. Life has a funny way of taking care of it's business.
Carry on.
EDIT: HAPPY HALLOWEEN!
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DHike
climber
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
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RRK, that's gnarly, glad you didn't take the 6' dirt nap.
I was quoting WBraun's post, my ladders are aluminum.
Peace
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Oct 31, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
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Heck Werner, might as well just go soloing. No equipment to worry about then...
Well, make sure your shoelaces are new!
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Oct 31, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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Dhike wrote:
"RRK, that's gnarly, glad you didn't take the 6' dirt nap."
I'm glad my son didn't take it - he was up the ladder first - putting rafters on the roof of a 2-story barn. Dad would much rather take the ass-whuppin - I've had 'em many times before. Besides, it was my call to use the ladder - we discussed it's appearance before going up (sounds familiar doesn't it?) My fear in those situations is that my lack of judgment will hurt somebody else. That's why I feel so much more comfortable climbing with people who have the judgment and experience to do what they feel is safe regardless of my opinion to the contrary. I'm always uneasy when I take somebody climbing and they're relying totally on me to make all the right decisions. I always feel like a weight's been lifted off when we get everyone home safe. Thanks again to all who've posted in this thread - you may have helped prevent an old idiot (me) from hurting somebody. Conversely if this story leads you to examine your fiberglass ladders for sun-damage then it was worth the telling.
Later
RRK
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 31, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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The person running out to buy a new harness may get creamed crossing the intersection to an REI when instead he would be blissfully safe hanging in his tattered old harness. Life has a funny way of taking care of it's business
Good point. Getting to the climbs kills way more climbers than climbing.
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Oct 31, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
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Here's a bit of an email from a buddy (Eric Aldrich) where this was discussed. This scenario makes sense to me and would not require a severly worn or damaged belay loop, just that the loop be the weakest link in a shock-loaded system. Just speculation but I thought I would share it.
RRK
" Another local friend, Rob Coppolillo, did an article last year on various types of sling materials, ie nylon vs spectra vs Dynasomething. One of the big deals is the difference in dynamic properties, especially with a spectra daisy. They are much more static, so much so that shock loading one directly onto an anchor with just a couple feet of slack can generate huge forces- enough to cause anchors, the daisy, or even harness parts to fail.
I understand they were at a point of switching rap ropes; my theory is that he was short-clipped either directly to an anchor, or maybe just really tight up to the rap rope's tie-in point, and probably slipped, or somehow dropped hard onto a short loop of slack in his tie-in; if it and his rap 'biner were both just clipped in to his harness loop, which was apparently pretty old, once that failed he was also no longer connected to the rap gear as well, and so he fell."
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iceokie
Ice climber
Memphis, TN
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Oct 31, 2006 - 05:55pm PT
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RRK said:
>>>>I'm always uneasy when I take somebody climbing and they're relying totally on me to make all the right decisions. I always feel like a weight's been lifted off when we get everyone home safe.
I often wondered how many others felt the same way. When we take newbies or friends that only go because we take them I'm sure they never have any idea of how responsible we feel for their safety. I've bought more new gear when I was taking someone new or a friend than I ever do when I'm climbing with a regular partner. Kinda weird when you consider it . . .
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 31, 2006 - 08:01pm PT
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I've often wondered how much a HOT biner compromises the strength of the nylon.
I've done some pretty long, screaming raps on hot days and have burned my skin to blisters on the f'in biner or belay device. Most of us have.
I wonder if his loop was severely worn thin and the large amounts of heat coming off a climb like that had something to do with it. Sure, BD's test of a 90% cut belay loop still held 777 pounds. But what if that same biner and nylon was baking at 220 degrees(Maybe even hotter?)?
Sounds like I need some more time on my pull tester....
Plus if he was using a Gri-Gri wouldn't there be a lot more thermal mass too? Once that Gri-Gri/biner combo heated up, I'd imagine it would hold that temperature against the nylon for a lot longer.
-Fear
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 31, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
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Doesn't the prussik (below rappel device) have some value, if only as a dead man's switch? That is, if you somehow lose control - falling rocks, slip, pendulum, etc - and let go, the prussik either catches, or feeds into the device and jams it. There's at least a reasonable chance of this happening, anyway.
It's also useful if you want to stop part way down a rappel - perhaps not totally reliable, but you don't have to grip the rope quite as hard. Can be useful on awkward rappels, or if you simply need to stop for a moment.
A prussik may add helpful friction if the rope is wet or icy or thin, too. Though there are much better ways to do so.
And maybe - just maybe - if the rappel device became detached or broke, you might not grab the rope and the prussik would hold. If it didn't burn through, and you remembered Russ' advice to clip it to the leg loops loop, not just a single feeble leg loop.
Anders
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Anders-
In real difficult mountaineering situations, the safety knot below the rappel device is in my opinion a literal life and energy saver. Sure, setting it up right takes a little practice, just like most other critical climbing skills. Difference is, I guess, most of the folks that have posted negatively about the technique here, are probably coming from the pure rock cragging perspective, where variables such as being hit by rockfall, a lump of ice, avalanche, dealing frozen hands, icy ropes, etc don't often come into play. I'm frankly amazed at the adamant denial of the potential need for, and usefulness of this technique, that some have expressed.
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Back to ladders, Dhike wrote:
"I was quoting WBraun's post, my ladders are aluminum."
Aluminum ladders don't necessarily equal safe climbing. Case in point: a good friend was recently killed doing landscaping work when his aluminum ladder contacted a service entrance and became energized. That's why electricians use fiberglass ladders. However fiberglass ladders loose their rating due to sun-deterioration - as I can well attest. The reality is that nothing we do is completely safe. The dangers are everywhere, most of them unrecognized. In an odd sort of way that's why climbing is actually safer than living in the real world - we've left most of the dangers-of-living below us and then deal intimately with the few- but very real- dangers that remain.
The more I think about Eric's comment in my post above the more I think he is on the right track. It just doesn't make sense to me that a loop of anything failed under body weight regardless of its age. I understand shock-loading and have been brought to awareness of the dangers of getting slack in your daisies, etc or of taking whippers close-in. If in fact they were switching ropes then I may be able to rationalize this without chunking a bunch of serviceable gear.
If I get anything useful out of this it may be a return to the use of the autoblock/prussic in my day-to-day climbing. Right now I just use it whenever I'm freaked and think that I'm about to rap off into oblivion. Unfortunately "oblivion" is never exactly where you think that it is.
Have a good day
RRK
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WBraun
climber
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Sheesh???
The "Werner Ladders" are no good either, I'll get a steel one!
SuperTopo paranoia seems to be a robust quality here.
What's a wiener like me to do?
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wombat
Trad climber
NY, NY
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i always thought the autoblock, etc backup was one of the easiest, cheapest pieces of insurance that we can get out there.
We all can easily manage until some objective hazard (rock, ice, etc as noted above) comes into play. One thing to remember is to segregate the sling/prusik so that it is not used with gear or in anchors to support weight given that the repeated heat will weaken the fibers. I have been told that spectra will melt faster so I stick with burly old nylon slings. It also has the additional benefit of a third hand if you need to mess with gear or a snagged rope on the rap.
Objective hazard is in the nature of our passtime but it is foolish not to eliminate the risks that we can control ourselves. I'd rather my obituary did not include "lazy", "cheap" or "stupid". "Unlucky" is fine.
I also don't want "ladder accident" in it either. you get purgatory for that one guaranteed
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WBraun
climber
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Wombat: "Objective hazard is in the nature of our passtime but it is foolish not to eliminate the risks that we can control ourselves."
Exactly, excellent.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I don't think steel ladders would be any less conductive Werner.
What about a Ugophirst ladder. (These are sometimes hard to find...)
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Wbraun wrote:
"Sheesh???
The "Werner Ladders" are no good either, I'll get a steel one! "
One word - "rust". Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
RRK [lookin' over my shoulder]
PS Piton Ron wrote:
"What about a Ugophirst ladder. (These are sometimes hard to find...) "
and even harder to say. What the heck is that?
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WBraun
climber
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You guys are really buying into my ladder sarcasm?
hehehe
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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RRK,
you go first
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Wbraun wrote:
"You guys are really buying into my ladder sarcasm?
hehehe "
I'm laughing too - just hope I don't fall off this whatchamacallit ladder. I'll just think light thoughts and float gently to the ground
RRK
PS
Piton Ron wrote:
"RRK,
you go first"
No No -- I led the last pitch - this one's yours.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well, OK. Good thing the crux is at the start of the traverse, because that's a long runout over to the dihedral facing us,...
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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PitonRon wrote:
"Well, OK. Good thing the crux is at the start of the traverse, because that's a long runout over to the dihedral facing us,... "
Sheesh - good thing I brought my ladder.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I checked my belay loop on my Petzel Jump and it shows signs of having melted in a spot. Wow.
JDF
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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I just posted this on another thread, but thought it to be more appropriate, here:
This seems to me a very good discussion. I found it difficult to believe that a belay loop, even a badly abraided one, could fail under a small shock load. I think BD's tests bear that out. So, I thought its either chemical damage, or complete cut through of the stitching, combined with many cycles of small shock loads. Someone else has brought up the possibility of heat transferred from the belay/rappel device through the carabiner to the belay loop, as a cause of damage. Apparently, the belay loop actually broke, ruling out cut stitching as a cause of failure. Perhaps it may be a type of "perfect storm" scenario: belay loop strength compromised by age, abrasion, heat damage, chemical exposure of some sort, material fatigue from repeated small shock loads - all brought to a tragic climax by a larger than usual shock load caused by a short slip or sudden small drop as Todd worked to transfer ropes under the overhang.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Thinking more about the many possible causes of failure in a nylon harnes, a comment that Werner made cvomes to mind: He wrote something like "What do I have to do, swage a cable around my waste to be safe?". Why not swage an 1/8" cable inside the belay loop?
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jstan
climber
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Does the NPS have the budget to do a microscopic and chemical analysis on the broken belay loop such as was done on the broken gymnasium rope? Seems to this observer we really need that.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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I agree, jstan. We need more info.
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couchmaster
climber
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There ya go again Jeff, showing us how much smarter than us ya are:-)
It would work I'm sure, except that it would add some weight and bulk, and realistically, has anyone ever heard of a harness ever failing before Todds did?
First hand knowledge?
I never have. Someone on CC.com reported a harness had failed on him, turns out the full explanation was that he had tied a swiss sling with webbing and the knot he had tied had come undone while he was rapping.
As far as that goes, how many times have you ever seen a harness in such bad condition that you have commented to the wearer on it's condition (like happened in this case) ? I'm sure that more answers will eventually be forthcoming as the recovered loop gets tested.
Until then: I think Scott really spoke for me and most of us up above. Webbing wears out.
You hear that Juan? Mr 10 year old harness that has a rope burn mark on it?
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Couch- I get your point. Harness failure is an extremely rare event. I think by careful examination of this failure, however, we might learn things that may carry over into other areas of climbing. It may well be that the belay loop failure had very little to do with the physical signs of wear, and everything to do with unseen effects of acid, heat, and/or material fatigue, which would mean it could happen again. Nothing wrong with the persuit of knowledge to see where it leads.
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wombat
Trad climber
NY, NY
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said snowyrange: I just think of my mantra that I tried to teach to anyone I climbed with......"the climb is not over until you are at the car drinking a beer". You must, repeat must, be vigilant.
the wombat says: “you must, repeat must, be vigilant until you’re knocking a few back before getting behind the wheel…”
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Here's a climbing tip from Climbing Magazine:
http://www.nathanwelton.com/stories/narrative/techtip.html
It shows how to rappel with a haul bag by hanging both it and yourself off the belay loop. Looks like it greatly increases the chances of failure of the belay loop. The autoblock backup knot below the rap device looks awkward.
Why not lower the pig first on one rope then rap on the other? For convenient stopping on a rap just have an ascender ready to be clipped on below the rap device.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The yugophirst ladder is actually part of a marketing campaign for Fiat knock-offs made in central Europe, the Yugo First. You make a ladder out of them by piling them up, as they're not a lot of good for anything else.
Of course, if Yugo First, then who goes second?
Climber irreverence...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It will be interesting to know how old Todd's harness was. Sometimes old shoes and harnesses become so comfortable, familiar and lucky that we just keep using them when they seem like medical waste to everyone else.
I'm for the "perfect storm" theory since belay loops are so bomber. Here's my list of factors.
1. Chemcial corrosion. The belay loop is right near where the piss hits the sky. God knows how many leaks a guy like Todd took without removing his harness.
2. UV weakening. Whether nylon is inside or outside makes a big difference. I've ripped 1 inch tubular webbing in half with my bare hands when it was left outside on a climb for too long, and even on the shady side of the valley, like on Space Babble and Church Tower. Todd was outside for very long and repeated exposures by anybody's standards.
3. Friction weakening from girth hitching the daisy to the belay loop and probably hang doging or at least hang belaying from it over and over.
4. Belay loops might not have been as bomber in the days when Todd bought his harness, which could have been a free prototype for all we know.
5. Slight shock loading from coming to a stop on a static rope.
6. Yada yada
For me, a very important lesson in this is
LISTEN TO YOUR GUT!
It's no accident that Jim and Todd were discussing the weak harness a few days before the accident. Last time I was on El Cap I just started thinking "I almost always manage to take one stupid fall on C2 on El Cap, this would be a perfect place for me to screw up cause it's so steep and clean...." Five minutes later...I'm in space. Ripped a screamer halfway through.
Todd had already ordered a harness so I guess he was listening to his gut. Sometimes it's just your time. So sorry that Todd had to leave loving folks behind on his new grade 8 journey.
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Cliffhanger,
while, as stated earlier, I prefer to put my lockers right onto swami and leg loops, the arrangement you refer to would be OK as long as the belay loop was properly cared for, inspected, and not allowed to deteriorate.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"For me, a very important lesson in this is
LISTEN TO YOUR GUT!"
My gut has been very caveleir in the past when it comes to using gnarly nylon.
A lot of the information that I've read in these threads, even if much of it does not prove to be the real reason for Todd's accident, has definately helped to inform my gut.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Absolutely Melissa
but many, many climbers are likely to die before another belay loop failure. There are a thousand things that will get you and I anticipate that hundreds of climbers may order new harnesses but still do things far more dangerous like:
* Drive home 4 hours after a grade 4, knowing they are tired, and a little voice tells them to rest instead of push.
* Climb in the Himalaya and think it's not wildy more risky.
* wait, no time to list all the things that actually get folks.
The greatest safety factor of all in climbing is mindfulness. Bonking is the enemy. But one small sub-set of mindfulness is that voice that tells you "This doesn't feel quite right. Better stop and reconsider."
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Maybe you missed the point of my post...Seeing something bad happen to someone else is a call to mindfulness. Not just for the specific thing that went wrong for them, for all of the ways in which we get caveleir with our gear and our lives.
It may be a very long time before another belay loop fails. But I bet it won't be as long before someone else dies due to shitty rap sling or other broken worn out gear.
Sometimes our guts need reminding of the risks to return to some better practices. This is true for myself when I get less vigilant about all kinds of things... driving when sleepy, checking my breasts for lumps, accepting belays on a shitty harness whose horrifying history I actually know, really checking the super fresh-looking rap sling for tears all the way around, etc.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think that one of the problems we all have to wrestle with is that experience sometimes conveys the wrong message.
There have been a number of times in my climbing career when something happened that could have been fatal but wasn't. I just lucked out. These incidents make for great campfire stories, and they are supposed to constitute mistakes we won't make again. But sometimes, I think the underlying psychological message is the opposite one, namely that we are damn good at surviving the consequences of inattention or cutting corners. The more of these lucky escapes one accumulates, the easier it becomes to think that they don't need to be carefully avoided.
Climbing is dangerous, and somewhere between complacency and obsessive fearfulness is a path that balances risk and safety. Tipping in one direction increases our chances of injury or death way beyond what is necessary. Tipping in the other direction buries the sport's essential roots of adventure in a suffocating blanket of technocratic minutia.
Maintaining our individual balance requires continual attention to the choices involved. In Todd's memory, let's make sure that the risks we are taking are the ones we've consciously chosen.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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The message that I got reinforced from this is not that "belay loops are dangerous" (which I think is not the right message).
It's that you need to pay proper attention to wear on ALL your gear. Nothing, be it ropes, bolts, cams, or belay loops is completely failure-proof. Do what you can to minimize risks, including getting rid of worn-old stuff. But realize that our sport is dangerous, and sometimes sh!t will happen.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Cliffhanger, sometimes there are ledges and other shite to get the haulbag past and lowering it just won't work. In which case you ride it down so you can push it where ever it needs to go. When done right there isn't any weight hanging on you and you have great manueverability.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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My system for rapping with a pig has worked great over two years of work replacing anchors. I attach both myself and the pig separately to the rap device which is extended from my harness loops - not the belay loop - on two short Mammut (red) dyneema slings; I'm then also into the rope(s) with a Petzl shunt with a locker on the belay loop. This way, a) I'm not attached to the pig, b) I'm into the rope by both my harness loops (to the rap device) and by my belay loop (with the Petzl Shunt), c) I can stop and start the rap as often as I please, and d) I can safely go hands-off to work anytime I stop by simply letting go. You operate the rap with one hand on the rope as usual and the other hand on the Shunt - works like a charm and you don't even feel the pig. I also usual have the pig-to-device slings setup so the pig is below me a bit unless I'm going to be stopping and working out of it, then I run it shorter so I can reach inside it.
And despite Werner never knowing what to make of the damn things, I've of late fallen in love with the lowly Petzl Shunt and now wonder how I ever got by without one - I consider them essential now for any rope work or dicey raps. The trick to carrying them on your harness is to clip them with the biner lever pulled back to the vertical retracted position and clip them with it on the backside of the device. It then has the least annoying harness profile even if it still weighs a bit.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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That "tip" from climbin mag is not a very good one. I was rapping with a pretty big pig a couple days ago. I clipped the belay device to the bag, and myself to the same point with a foot long runner (backed up) clipped to my belay loop. Like the gnome says this gives you the freedom to move and deal with the bag and puts the load where it belongs at the same time.
Someone should start a topic on those "tech tips." I see a lot of weird ideas there.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Any body know the effects of useing permanant marker on ropes and slings?
A friend of mine just wrote his name on a brand new set of BD C4s.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Here is a question related to what happened to Todd Skinner, that best I can tell has not been asked or answered. Does anyone know any details whatsoever about the NPS investigation of the accident? I would like to know if they are done investigating, if they plan on releasing any more information, if they plan on telling us what brand of harness was involved, if they plan on showing us photos of the harness condition itself, and the belay loop too. Or are they totally done? Someone out there must have more information about this, and someone must have harness/belay loop photos. I'm thinking that the brand of harness is really irrelevant, since all seem to agree that it was fully trashed. I'd still like to know, for curiosity purposes. Far more important are actualy photos, as words have not described in complete detail just how hammered the harness was. Oh, I would also like to know if the belay loop webbing broke, or if it was a stitching failure. Thank you so much to anyone who knows the answer to these questions and posts them. I'm kind of amazed that these questions have not been answered yet. There are those who know, it will be fascinating to see if they let us all know. AND I believe it will be most useful in helping prevent this tragedy from happening again. Thank you all!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I would guess patience is still the order of the day...
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jstan
climber
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Hummerchine:
Hey Tom! You are probably getting out to JT more often than I at this point. Hope all is well. I asked a similar question but I expect the NPS has to find the funds and then it takes time to do the lab work. More time to write the report. It is going to be awhile.
On a visit to my cousin in Longview I hiked up St. Helens. What a great neighborhood.
Cheers,
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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John, Give a shout if you're back in PDX again and have a little time to kill even if it's just out at the airport where there is a decent restaraunt or two...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Any body know the effects of useing permanant marker on ropes and slings?
I think there's a couple of solvents used in pens that are safe for nylon, ie, MEK and ethyl alcohol. A bad one might be diacetone alcohol, which, the majority of the Sharpie type pens seem to use (according to the MSDS' on those products).
Anyone know for sure which solvents are ok, and which aren't?
Mammut rope site has a FAQ regarding rope marking (see
under "chemical damage").
http://www.mammut.ch/mammut/uploadedFiles/Mammut_knowhow_ropes.pdf
-Brian in SLC
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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The NPS will issue an official report when they're sure that all of the questions have been answered. Keep your eye on the NPS Morning Report. http://home.nps.gov/applications/morningreport/ This is where they usually write this stuff up. There were mentions in the reports from October 26th and Oct 30th.
Regarding marking ropes, a number of companies have recommended the Sharpies and one company even re-branded them and called them Rope Marking Pens. Test were done that proved pretty conclusively that whatever solvent they were using at the time was harmless. Sharpie, on the other hand, won't guarantee that they'll always use the same solvent so they specifically recommend against use them for rope marking.
Best bet? Buy a bi-color rope.
Mal
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TimM
Trad climber
near Joshua Tree
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Mal,
The PMI markers are batch tested to make sure that none of the bad solvents are present in the ink and carrier solution.
But, as you suggested, bi-color ropes rule !! I wish more manufacturers would produce these.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I especially wish Mammut would make a bicolor version of their 10.2 SuperSafe. It astounds me that they don't. It would be the only rope I'd use. They make the 10mm Eternity which is essentially the same rope as the SuperSafe but at 10mm in a bicolor, but I like that extra .2mm the SuperSafe provides in a lot of situations. WTF Mammut...??? Please dump the Triodess business and make all your ropes available in bicolor.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Agreed...I can't believe no one has died yet b/c they confused the identical markings 30 ft. from the end of the rope w/ the one in the middle. I HATE this "feature", and think it's worse than no marking at all.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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""Author:
rgold
Trad climber
From: Poughkeepsie, NY "On the suggestion to girth daisies through the harness tie-in points, rather than the belay loop. Might be not a good idea.
Lead rope will wear your daisie very quick."
Hasn't happened in my case. YMMV.""
My daisies have been girth hitched to the tie in points for years. I've taken them off a couple of times. Still no problems.
Cluttering up the belay loop is asking for trouble in more ways than one.
I have to think a rappel backup would have worked, especially the auto blocking one, because after using the auto-block for a LONG time on EVERY rappel I do, it has become insticntual to release it to stop, which I do a lot to either take pictures, clean a route, or look at stuff on the wall.
I have no comment on the efficacy of the standard prussik or it's ability to stop a fall once it has started, since I don;t use that knot for rap backup, but I would guess that if you are using a prussik , you should be using the 4 wrap instead of the three wrap, since the three wrap is known and tested to be inferior for some time now.
Here is a little something I wrote to a friend who was a pal of Todd Skinners. I was trying to help him get some good out of the death of his friend.
I don't mean any disrespect to Todd Skinner here, so try not to take it that way.
One point is that humans just are not very logical sometimes, and that can really cause problems.
*
I did hear about Todd Skinner, what a crazy and horrible way to die that was. I'm sorry you lost a good friend. Some of my friends also have old harnesses and other really old equipment and they have always been rather cavalier about that, even saying things like, "Gear doesn't wear out.".
.
Maybe one good thing that will come of this is that people will take extra care to check their stuff.
I don't mean to be cold about this, but it is a huge logical error to assume that something or some process will work THIS time just because it has worked a huge number of times before. We all do this, we take certain things as given and we take them for granted, just because the number of successes is high.
Actually mechanical failures go up with age and use, and "old friends", like harnesses and slings and so forth can't really earn more trust with more use and familiarity, but we tend to put more trust in things that are "tried and true".
What really keeps things working well is constant checking and maintenance-- not only of equipment but of our mental safety practices as well.
I try to make this point to people all the time about rappelling, because rappelling is so simple and easy, yet one mistake is usually fatal. Once someone has had a number of successes, they think they know what they are doing, and therefore since they see themselves as experienced and wise, they think nothing can happen to them. This sort of thinking leads to complacency and that leads to failure to check for errors.
Here lies a key failing in how most people think: Since we KNOW we have not made an error in the past we assume that we will not make one this time, which is just wrong. The only thing that will stop most rappel errors is checking the setup carefully every time you rappel and then executing the procedure correctly.
How many times one has rappelled safely has nothing to do with the success of your next rappel, IF one fails to check and execute.
I think the best way to honor your friend and give his death value and meaning is to encourage everyone to be more careful.
I guess you can see this sort of thing is a sore subject for me. I didn't mean to go overboard about it, but these sort of accidents happen all the time, and they are almost all preventable. It just makes me sad and sick at heart for anyone to die in a way they could have prevented with just a little more care.
I know how you love to deal with thought processes in climbing, and I hope what I wrote will be useful to you.
I'm pretty sure that my idea explains the apparent paradox of the accident rate in climbing being high for beginners, falling for middle experienced climbers, and then rising again for greatly experienced climbers.
In my view, beginners are usually killed and injured by ignorance and stupidity, while highly experienced climbers are often killed by complacency and hubris.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Examples of broken harness - it happened to a friend of mine. Rap-cleaning routes in a quarry with a worn harness. Luckily for him the belay loop did not fail.
The waist loop where it goes thru the belay loop is what wore out first. When it broke, the belay loop was still attached to the leg loops, so he was okay.
Most harnesses I have owned suffer from these loops rubbing on each other just from walking around. Every step you take the harness rubs, back and forth. Wild guess - after maybe 10-30,0000 steps you can see some wear. 10,000 steps is only 5 miles. So how much wear after 100,000 steps - 50 miles?
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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healyje and Melissa:
I completely agree about the "triodess". What may at first look like a good safety idea is in reality a hazard. The idea is that as you near the end of the ropes on rappel you will see the marking as a warning. The reality is that you are unlikely to notice this, and this creates a far greater risk of confusing the true midpoint of the rope. I am aware of a death at Frenchman's Coulee near George, WA, along with at least one other death I have heard of, where the climber rapped of the end of one of the strands of the rappel rope shortly after starting a rappel. The rope had been rigged nowhere near the middle. I have never heard, but I have wondered if this was indeed a "triodess death".
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Hey Melissa -
Just so you know, Mammut changed their marking so that there are two marks at the middle, just a few inches apart, while there is only one at the end marker. This is the TrioSAFE mark
If you are picking up the "mark" to place it in a rap anchor, you can now tell the middle from the end marks.
There is (was) also a Triodess pattern, which was awesome. It included a brief pattern (not ink, but weave) difference for about a foot in the middle of the rope and then the last 30 feet of the line on each end was a different pattern. IMO, this was a very safe weave pattern, but it was very expensive to make. They stopped doing this and replaced it with TrioSAFE markings soas to not be priced out of the market.
Triosafe rocked.
Triodess has been changed to be less confusing.
FWIW
-Kate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Kate,
I did hear that before, but the markings on the SuperSafe are really quite inadequate once the rope gets some wear on it. As you mention the "Trio" patterns are expensive and I don't think add enough value in exchange to make it worth the effort in my opinion. Duodess is more than adequate to the task I think it should be available in every rope they make. I think we probably agree the SuperSafe is one of the finest ropes made, but in could be better.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Hey Joe:
Yeah, I don't have enough wear on my new SS to see what it will be like after some use. That, and a skunk sprayed it very thoroughly last week, so I may have to retire it after just 1 walls. :(
I completely agree, the Supersafe is an awesome line, I just can't believe that Mammut decides to bill it as one of the safest lines to use (marketing pitch) and then eliminates one of the most popular "safety options" that people like to have...bicolor/biweave availability.
The Triodess did have some great benefits on a wall...There are so many bights that are tied into the anchor on the lead line such as the leaders saftey line, top-of-pitch bight that is jugged and the backup, seconds safety line. With the Triodess it was really easy to tell which bights were safety knots, as these would be the knots on the "end pattern" sections of rope) and which were knots from the pitch being fixed/backed up, as these would have the pattern of the middle segment of rope. The center was also easy to ID.
Sure, we hope we aren't moronic enough to need this kind of thing on our lines. It was just a cool, convenient option that I was willing to pay $20 extra for.
Anyway, Mammut will come around eventually. There are plenty of people who are unhappy with triosafe, and this will only increase as the ropes that are on the market get more wear/tear and folks start to complain.
I'd like to have a mammut supersafe with bipattern/bicolor.
Sorry for the OT.
-Kate.
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robdotcalm
climber
Loveland, Colorado
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Several comments in this and related threads discussed the risk inherent in clipping into a belay loop, mostly that it provides no backup. Belay loop fails and all is lost. Suggestions to improve safety were: (i) clip thru the leg loops and waist belt; (ii) use a second belay loop or use supertape for a backup loop.
Valid criticisms were made of both suggestions. For (i), it could lead to dangerous cross-loading. The articles referenced on these dangers convinced me that this is not the way to go. Also, I like using the belay loop as it’s more convenient to clip into and out of and easier to check visually that the attachment was done correctly. Criticisms of (ii) also referred to cross-loading and that the backup loop (or second belay) loop would get worn along with the original belay loop.
I decided to go with the idea of using supertape and making the loop of tape about 3 cm (~ 1 inch) longer than the belay loop. This way force would come on the backup loop only if the belay loop broke and not during regular usage. I went climbing yesterday. Since I didn’t have supertape at home, I made the backup loop from 6 mm. perlon cord and tied it off with a double fisherman’s knot. It did not interfere with either belaying or rappelling. At the end of the day, I decided I liked the cord better than webbing because it’s difficult to tie a knot in webbing that will remain secure.
I can’t think of any unwanted or dangerous side effects from the backup loop.
I realize that the probability of a belay loop breaking is very small but certainly not zero. The backup loop was re-assuring to me.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:18pm PT
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Any new info yet? The BD tests were pretty much irrelevant (wrong brand, wrong type of abuse). Is the NPS actually investigating what happened or has the case been closed?
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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Above I suggested (untried) an extra supertape loop to back up the belay loop. Well I made and used one all last week; its sweet. About 30 inches of Supertape (9/16 inch webbing) tied with grapevine. As with robdotcalm above it didn't get in the way at all. Clipping both loops was almost automatic, no extra hassle. And of course supertape loop could be easily replaced each season. I'm sold.
I also was thinking, maybe manufactures could make harness with replaceable belay loops. Of course other parts of harness can ware-out too and whole thing needs replacement every now and then, but with replaceable belay loops one could make it a standard process to replace it at the beginning of each season for 5 to 10 bucks.
Oh yea, one other thought; I still use home tied shoulder length slings; too cheap for the cool stitched ones; but when I tie a new sling I use a felt pen to write the date on the loose end of the knot (not in the load bearing loop). Like someone else mentioned, amazing how fast time passes. I'm thinking, new sling, but look at date, already 4 or 5 years old. Anyway, why don't manufactures leave a little tab of loose sling on all nylon webbing gear where you can safely put the "new date". How long has that $8 dynama sling been on my rack? Don't really want to replace it unless I know its really old but I don't really remember when I bought it....
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couchmaster
climber
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Feb 22, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
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My trick too Mike:
I was out Sunday to solo down and clean, as I dropped over the edge on rappel, I thought to myself " time to re-mark that sling".
The '91 was getting faded on my sewn sling...again. Let's see, 2007 - 1991....hmmmm, 16 year old sling? It can't be old, I just bought the damn thing.
Later Dude:
Regards:
Bill Coe
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