Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
oldtopangalizard
Social climber
ca
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 10:27am PT
|
Scary to look at Largo's download. Think of all the times we got away with that worn out, sand filled, sun burnt JT gear. Don't climb much anymore, but I'll have made it to 50.
P.S. - Good advice on throwing away the old stuff. Threw away the old Whillans about a year ago. I had not used it for years, but it was used on group trips for small(no such thing when it is your ass) topropes. Christ, my kids probably used it when they were little.
|
|
Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 10:30am PT
|
My policy is I belay off the belay loop.
I tied in and rap off the two tie in points. Any falls on the rope, or moving around during rappelling creating a sawing action. Six years on my old harness frayed about 30% of the lower of the two tie in points ... I retired it, but its a reminder as to the reason to double up.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 10:45am PT
|
Good post JL,
I don't put much stock in statistics but I like using facts for an educated evaluation of any situation.
I sometimes work in a business where I work up high, often times with people that have never been higher than the roof on thier home. Becuase of this fact, we tend to use equipment that is easy to use and many times this equipment has working load requirements far greater than anything seen in the climbing world.
Still, people get hurt, and die.
While it is important to use the proper equipment for the proper job, it is more important to understand the risk(s) of any particular situation and act accordingly.
Ok, so the manufacturer of my harness states that I may use my belay loop to rappel. I understand this, but I also know from experience that even the most intensive rigging may fail under load causing possible catatrophic events, if not backed up by an alternative system.
Therefore, I have always chosen to rap using the loop in my harness belt and leg loop connector webbing with a biner connecting the two.
The manufacturer of my helmet says nothing about wearing it when belaying under a climb I know has loose rock but, I do it anyway.
I don't always make the best choices and one day it may cost me my life but, I hope I take the time to consider the variables when attempting life risking ventures and act accordingly.
I need to think aqbout what I am doing when I am doing it. I cannot think about my car, my bills, my job, ar ANYTHING else except fininshing the knot in front of me, clipping that anchor, checking my partners knot or any one of a hundred different problems I'm involved in AT THE MOMENT.
I use myself as an example because I don't like to preach, and I know people will do what they do the way they like to do it. However, I need to stick around for awhile uninjured so I try to be aware and keep it safe for me and my partners.
|
|
SnowyRange
Trad climber
Fox Park, WY
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 11:17am PT
|
This is why I always had another sling twice around my waist webbiing with a water knot and made sure my locking carabiner was through that sling as well even if I used the belay loop. I have done this for every harness I have owned.
Also, although it is a pain to rap with, be old school and tie a prusik around the rope and your waist webbing and slide the prusik with your upper hand while rappeling, especially when rapping with heavy loads. If you lose it the prusik will lock and stop you. That alone could have saved Todd if his belay loop or entire descent system failed.
And when climbing, always tie your rope around your waist webbing, never just into the belay loop or carabiner. I see that too often from the gyms to the crags.
You must always stack your failures as close to none as possible.
I just think of my mantra that I tried to teach to anyone I climbed with......"the climb is not over until you are at the car drinking a beer". You must, repeat must, be vigilant.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 11:22am PT
|
Twenty five or so years ago, for some reason, I bought a seat harness. It was not out of the package five minutes before I had 1" nylon sling on it backing up the crotch loop. Then I looked at what it was connected to. A single pass of hard 1" webbing secured by very densely stitched bar tacks. Now I can imagine a dull needle could do a lot of damage making bar tacks. So now the strength of the finished goods is subject to how good the manufacturing process is at the moment those goods were made. That means there has to be recurring acceptance tests on the production line. Frankly I don't know why it is anyone makes these things. But maybe that is just one of my many problems.
There are also manufacturing problems in making simple sling. But the product is structurally simpler, there is little/no hand work in it, and probably 50,000 miles a year of the stuff is made and tested. I use my old swamis as tow ropes. Best tow rope you will ever find. Have not broken one yet. Still .......using two swamis made from different batches of sling is not a bad idea at all, as has been suggested above.
Or so it seems to this observer.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
|
Copied from my post on the other thread on this topic:
By clipping into the tie-in points (as Warbler and others have done, and I always did, too), you simply add an element of redundancy to the system, with no additional time or effort. Redundancy in safety systems is always a good thing. For instance, who wants to belay or rappell off a single anchor, no matter how bomber that anchor seems to be?
EDIT: I always thought of the "belay loop" as just a piece of webbing that holds the two parts (the waist belt and the leg loops) of the harness together.
EDIT,EDIT: A nicely rounded pear-shaped loccking biner will keep triaxial loading to a minimum - well within the carabiner's breaking strength.
|
|
Rob Robinson
Trad climber
Chattanooga, TN
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
|
It is too easy after having climbed for decades without serious incident to become inured to the ever present danger lurking just beneath out feet every time we venture into the vertical world.
My take on the (now infamous) "belay loop" has always been that the only thing the damn thing is good for is to keep the leg loops from slipping down your legs.
When the belay loop first came out I never used it. I've always felt more secure using at least one (preferably two) locking carabiners threaded through the leg loops and waist harness for belaying or rappelling.
That said, what happened to Todd could have easily happened to any of us.
I recall during a first ascent a number of years ago hearing a funny tearing/shearing sound, looking down at my waist, and seeing my harness literally coming undone and slipping down my legs. In my haste to get started on the route I had only secured my harness using the Velco stickie (another convenience of many modern climbing harnesses) -- I had forgotten to thread the buckle. And this occurred even AFTER I had read about Lynn Hill literally falling out her harness -- and decking -- in a similar incident while climb in France 15 or so years ago.
I'm sure this tragic and shocking accident is going cause all of us, and as well the litigation senstitive industry that supplies us our tools of the trade, to revisit issues of safety and backup systems.
|
|
climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
|
The way I see it, most belay loops already have redundency built in. All this banter about needing a second belay loop, clipping through the tie-in loops, etc. is unnecessary.
Here's the deal: almost every belay loop out there is made with a double loop of high-strength webbing. There are multiple bar tacks and preimeter sewing holding it all together. I think it was locker who mentioned sewing a second loop around the outside of an existing belay loop. Well, the manufacturer already did that for ya'll.
The critical single, non-redundent points in most rappel setups are: the rope, carabiner, rappel device and harness waistbelt. (I suppose you could add leg loops, which are each a single thickness of strength-bearing webbing.)
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
|
I've made a number of posts in different forums about the importance of redundancy, but it is not an absolute principle that must be applied in every situation. Sometimes, I think our responses aren't realistically proportional to the actual risks involved. Not too long ago, I saw someone who had tied an extra backup for their belay loop struggle at a crux sequence with a single piece between them and a bad ground fall. In my opinion, this person misunderstood the real risks and was attempting to control the wrong variables. Some of the discussion on harness safety strikes me the same way.
The fact remains that the belay loop on a harness that hasn't been worn to tatters is one of the strongest links in the chain and is, consequently, one of the last candidates for redundant treatment. Kolin's tests suggest that, if you were really careful, you could conceivably survive a rappel with a new belay loop cut 90% through. (Do not try this at home please.) There's nothing the matter with tying on an extra loop to back the belay loop up, of course, other than the prospect I already mentioned that it might encourage you to use the harness past its safe working life. But really, if you attend to the condition of your gear, I think it would be better to direct your energy to other, more productive, types of redundancy.
I do think it is worth adopting practices that minimize wear to the belay loop. The tie-in points on modern harnesses have various types of wear protection and are better suited to abuse than the belay loop. For example, I think it is better to girth daisies through the harness tie-in points, rather than the belay loop. Daisies girthed to the belay loop keep it from rotating and so continually impose wear at the same spots, especially if the daisy or daisies are left on semi-permanently. Same idea for those who extend their rappel device: the extending sling should be threaded through the harness tie-in points rather than girthed to the belay loop.
I also think it is important, when belaying the leader from stances, that the biner connecting the belay device to the harness pass through not only the belay loop but also the loop formed by the climbing rope tie-in. (The climbing rope loop should be tied so that it is roughly the same size as the tie-in loop.) Not only does this supply redundancy for the belay loop in a situation where the forces could be far higher than rapelling loads, but much more importantly, it transfers the load of a leader fall to the anchor without imposing forces that would tend to tear the harness apart.
As for prusik backups, I think it unlikely that they would have been of any use in this tragedy.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
|
It seems likely to me that a prussic backup would have avoided this accident. Unless after the belay loop failed, the prussic didn't bite quickly enough and stop the fall immediately. If prussics are allowed to slide much at all, they can quickly burn through. Makes me think we need to make our prussics out of a material with an extremely high melting point.
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
|
Some random thoughts:
I was thinking back to my old Whillans harness and to where the biner attached to the harness. Stitched under the webbing was a couple of layers to thin nylon bias tape. The biner would rub against the tape rather than the webbing and the stitching thus reducing the wear on the webbing. Belay loops do not have anything and there is alot moving back and forth which affects the bar tacking as well as the side stitching on both side.
As in a previous post, I currently have my daisy chain girth hitched to the belay loop. With my old expedition bod harness which does not have a belay loop I girth hitched the daisy chain to the leg loop and put the waist webbing through the next loop in the daisy chain. I might try this and elliminate the belay all to gether as I do not use it for anything else but my daisy chain.
Recently I picked up some of Mammuts Dyneema slings. I was thinking that the way they slipped one end into the other bar tacked them and covered it with a thin material cover was nice. I have decided that I am going to remove the cover because it prevents me from inspecting the bar tacks. I do not think the "protection" the cover afords the bar tack is much and having the ability to examine the bar tacks is more important.
|
|
Tahoe climber
climber
Texas to Tahoe
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
|
My vote is as follows:
I use the belay loop for belaying and rapelling. I believe it's one of the strongest pieces in the system.
From the sound of it, a prusik or any other backup rappelling method would almost certainly have saved Todd's life.
I get a new harness every two years, max.
I don't think that using a redundant loop along with the belay loop, OR clipping a biner through waist and leg loops (like you'd tie in to climb) is necessary - in fact, the manufacturers say it is LESS safe that way, and I trust them.
The advice about protecting the life of the belay loop above is sound: girthing the daisy about the waist/leg loops instead of the belay loop is a great piece of advice.
Thanks, and RIP, Todd.
-Aaron
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
|
For all those who are arguing that belay loops don't need redundance, as they are plenty strong, I have two comments. 1- Todd's belay loop apparently did fail. 2- If he had been clipped into the tie-in points, this accident probably would not have happenned. This is not in any way meant to be a criticism of Todd or his techniques, which seemed to be in line with accepted standards. Clipping into the belay loop alone (although quite a few times I have done it, as I know they are ridiculously strong), has never passed my intuitive scrutiny. I sure hope we can find out what led to the failure of Todd's belay loop. All the laboratory tests lead to the conclusion it should never happen. So, what caused the failure? And shouldn't we build in redundancy whenever possible?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
|
Locker:
From KP's Black Diamond blog:
"Is this incident going to cause every climber out there to start wanting two belay loops, or tieing a backup supertape belay loop in their current harness or throw their harness away altogether and buy a new one immediately? It shouldn't. Reputable manufacturer's make burly harnesses—bottom line—and don’t forget that there are some negatives/concerns about using two belay loops at once in some situations (i.e. tri-axial loading carabiners, etc.)—not good."
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 03:44pm PT
|
The reason I feel pretty sure a prusik backup would have been of no help is that the knot has to be released in order to grab, and letting go of the rope at the moment of rappel failure is contrary to all instincts. Once you get moving, the knot won't grab. Tests done by the caving community indicate that even people who know the failure is about to happen can't reliably release their backup knots. (These tests were on prusiks placed above the rappel device, but once the belay loop breaks there's no distinction. And of course in the unlikely case that the knot did grab, you'd be hanging upside down from leg loops no longer attached to the waist loop.)
|
|
Robb
Social climber
Under a Big Sky
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
|
Not to sound condescending, but I never felt safe w/ trusting in just one connection. I always wore a three wrap of one inch tube webbing run through the belay loop & tied in. Not that uncomfortable, but very easing on the mind.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 04:05pm PT
|
rgold- you may be correct in that analysis of the probable response from a climber when (s)he needs to release the prussic . But there's at least a possibility , and if there's a knot as there should be at the end of the rope, the fall would a least be limited. This subject deserves more study.
All of the lab tests I have seen/read, do not take into account the thousands (or perhaps million in the case of an old harness used by a very active climber like Todd), of repeated weightings and unweightings of the belay loop. Since the loops are usually one piece of webbing sewn concentrically within itself until it's two-layers thick, what you have is a tiny sawing action with each cycle of weighting/unweighting. If particles of grit or aluminum oxide work their way between the layers of webbing or into the weave of the webbing itself, what would be created is a microscopic sanding action that may, over many, many cycles, weaken the thread to the point of failure. A test needs to be set up to evaluate this. It's my opinion, that two single layer loops, sewn independently and loosely tacked one inside the other, will most likely yield a longer-lasting loop.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
|
I regularly belay off a single belay loop, but this has certainly got me to thinking. I have two belay loops on my aid climbing harness - one for each daisy. When soloing, my Grigri hangs from one belay loop, and my sewn sling and wide-gate autolocker backup crab hangs from the other for redundancy.
The belay loop is without doubt one of the strongest, if not the strongest, part of your system. At least it is while it's still new.
I'm going to order a couple new belay loops from John Yates. I think my loops are still in decent shape, but it wouldn't hurt to replace them.
You can click the link below to read about two nylon gear failures I have had recently, both of these being adjustable daisies breaking. Perhaps you have had nylon fail? You can click here to [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=273295&f=0&b=0"]share your nylon climbing gear failures.[/url]
Cheers,
"Two Doughnuts" Pete
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
|
Tahoe Climber:
" clipping a biner through waist and leg loops (like you'd tie in to climb) is necessary - in fact, the manufacturers say it is LESS safe that way, and I trust them. "
I assume you meant to say is unnecessary. Otherwise the post is confussing.
If clipping a biner into leg and waist loop is less safe I would like to know why. Can you dig up some references to this? Back in the day when we used a single piece of 1" tubular webbing to make a harness this is what everyone did clip a locking biner between the leg loop and the waist and then belayed off of it.
BTW does anyone know the history of the belay loop?? I am trying to think of when I first had a harness with one.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!