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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 20, 2008 - 09:40am PT
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On another thread Doug Buchanan said: "PHYSICALLY ASK THE QUESTIONS: Do citizens hold a RIGHT to walk on public land ...not fenced for identifiable material security? Does the government hold the authority to demand permission or charge a fee...for the exercise of a RIGHT? ....
YOU ARE UNDER THE RULE OF WRITTEN LAW, NOT UNDER THE RULE OF LYING LAWYERS AND JUDGES. LEARN YOUR RULER OR REMAIN PREY FOR MALICIOUS PARK SERVICE RANGERS AND THEIR SELF-SERVING LAWYERS.
READ SLOWLY.... A Park Service regulation can be in harmony with a Statute law in harmony with the common law, and therefore valid. "
So if, of the half a million words I've read from Doug are distilled to this and I understand it. He is saying that there is a common law which holds that we can walk on our (public) land without restriction unless it is fenced for some security reason. A law gets passed which makes us pay to park or to walk on said land - this is inherently at odds with earlier common law. However, if we do not contest this new (illegal) law, it becomes like common law and has force?
IS THIS TRUE?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 20, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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not only false, but delusional.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
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The golden age is over.
The world will be inherited by bottle washers and button sorters.
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:18pm PT
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many people have tried this argument in court, they always lose. I think LEB hit it right on the head.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:35pm PT
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I'll give it a go. There are several sources of law in the United States. The Constitution is supreme. If anything conflicts with the Constitution, the conflicting provisions yield.
Congress has the power, granted explicitly in the Constitution, to enact laws. This statutory law (written in the United States Code or, occasionally, in general statutes) serves as the source of much of the body of federal (and, in California, state) law.
The legislative branch may, by statute, provide that an agency of the executive brach (e.g., the Forest Service, BLM, Park Service, etc.) may regulate use of public lands (or anything else owned by the government). When the designated agency makes rules on the use of the land, they are within the rights delegated to them by the legislative branch. If you don't like it, elect different representatives.
Where there is no explicit Constitutional or statutory provision, the common law (the recorded decisions of appellate courts) controls. The people who make the sorts of arguments to which this thread refers make two mistakes:
1. Assuming the common law takes precedence over Constitutional and statutory law, including desicisions of executive agencies exercising their delegated authority; and
2. Assuming that any citizem owns public lands as a tenant in common, and therefore has a non-exclusive right to use it.
As stated earlier, both arguments lost in court (i.e., the common law) -- and long ago. They may sound convincing, but the doctrine of stare decisis (settled case law) says otherwise.
Hope that helps
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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John,
I don't think that you could state it more lucidly.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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Lawyers will not identify themselves and answer the question in regard to "law", only "legal opinion" which is a fool's illusion, as required and indemnified by their government license.
The most they will do is brag about their high titles and credentials, then verifiably lie.
Simply ask any lawyer if they are representing the prevailing law or legal opinion / legal advice, ON VERIFIABLE RECORD. Ask if you are required to obey law, opinion or advice.
(I was arrested because of the tape recorder.)
A consistency of (usually higher) court findings, over centuries, for each separate basic human action has already created the common law, with one primary finding which can be cited. It is possible but unlikely that any new common law will be created. The test of time has identified all the basic human actions.
Certain other processes to create common law are alluded to and not FULLY explained, to create confusion, but rarely happen and do not damage your rights.
A reason the common law protects your rights is that the real or metaphorical judge's daughter eventually performed that action and was taken to court. A fellow judge, fearing such type reprisal WITHIN HIS INSTITUTION, expressed REASONING to describe in that case law the action's lawful nature because it damaged no person or property, and did not threaten society to the established high standards of the common law.
The written REASONING and its forum process subsequently prevailed for a reason inherent to the human mind's design.
Accessing the protection of the common law requires learning the arrangements of words that prevail above the ever-increasing rhetorical illusions presented by repugnant lower court judges (lawyers in robes) to fool you into acquiescing to the inferior law jurisdictions and courts of their raw power above the superior law that protects THEIR INSTITUTION INSIDER'S.
ONLY your acquiescing to the inferior law can lawfully separate you from your rights, by law.
Applications of uncontested inferior laws victimizing you unfavored mere common peasants (climbers) will not change the superior common law. The REASONING of the common law cannot be successfully changed, for a reason in the process of reasoning no American school has taught in over a century, especially Harvard, Yale, Cambridge and the other ivy (idiot) league universities.
The process to ACCESS the protection of the prevailing law in courts has become the scam of perfidious lawyers/judges.
Americans have been dumbed-down by an ACTUAL PROCESS (natural, not conspiracy), or questions over the nation's ruler (common law) could not still exist. Until I ASKED THE QUESTIONS to learn how the categorically repugnant lawyers have been defrauding even their own offspring, and the rest of us, out of human rights, I was as dumb as mud on that issue (in addition to most other things).
If you are the son or daughter of a lawyer, ASK THE QUESTIONS that prove your parent repugnantly betrayed you and your friends more than any non-lawyer parent would ever even consider, intentionally keeping you ignorant of how to access or defend your human RIGHTS, as RIGHTS, in courts, and ignorant of how to ask them effective questions.
The POWER of lawyers, like all power, is DEPENDENT upon keeping people ignorant, including the offspring of power-addicted thugs. Power and knowledge are mutually exclusive.
Amusingly, because the balance is perfect in all things, and the human mind was designed to become more curious as contradictions compound, the offspring of lawyers, judges and National Park Service thugs will eventually learn that their parents or grandparents were the most contemptible, repugnant living flesh on the planet, much to the amusement of the observers.
Climbers will hold the American Alpine Club, Access Fund, their gullible supporters and the lawyers who owned those money-grubbing organizations in unmitigated contempt for the rest of history.
And the US National Park Service will TOTALLY destroy the National Park system, on schedule. National Parks will become the primary lesson on how to never manage public land.
Enjoy the show.
Doug
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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did someone just $hit in here?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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Doug,
I'm on your side, but if you want me to read them please post more succintly.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 20, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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"Lawyers will not identify themselves and answer the question in regard to "law", only "legal opinion" which is a fool's illusion, as required and indemnified by their government license.
At least two attorneys have already answered the OP.
Its impossible to address Doug's posts. He has no understanding of the legal system, and is just making shyte up.
I laugh robustly. Enjoy the show, Atcha
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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Notice the obviously ignorant people who suggest the common line of: "reality", "the way it is", "that is the way it happens", "what is now", etceteras. THEY DO NOT ASK OR ANSWER QUESTIONS.
Notice the questions they did not answer.
They are the ignorant chaps upon whom power successfully preys.
Be them, or learn knowledge. Your choice. You learn knowledge by asking and answering questions, not reading or making statements.
A million people can pay the fine and go to jail, much to the "I-told-you-so" delight of the ignorance purveyors, then one person can express simple knowledge in court, for the same action, and walk away. (I have assisted people in doing so.)
Your choice. Easy to stay stupid. A bit of effort to learn knowledge. You must ACTUALLY ask and answer questions.
Courts function on knowledge. Thugs function on power. Police, lawyer and judge thugs in court can be held to knowledge because the court system prevails, by design, if you learn the KNOWLEDGE.
The US Constitution is a common law document. The US is a common law nation. Common law prevails above all laws in the US. At the edge of the US, in water, Maritime Law prevails, and is as good as common law.
As to the matter of statute and Public laws... Park Service and all agency regulations, codes, etceteras, cannot LAWFULLY exceed the exact limiting words of the legislatively adopted laws, or the agencies would have more power than congressmen, in fact, the power of kings (Congressmen will not let that happen). Same with legislatively allowed Executive Orders.
The Park Service and other agencies constantly write regulations that vastly exceed their statutory authority, and routinely use them to fine and imprison the dumbed-down Americans, much to the delight of idiot police mentalities yelling, "See, I told you so", "that's the way it works". Congressmen do not care only if it generates the excuses for more laws and taxes (fines), which is why it does.
But knowledgeable people can and routinely do defeat those unlawful applications of authority, within the inferior statute laws, without invoking the common law. So lawyers and judges merely do not mention those case laws when convicting each next victim. The victim must pay a lawyer a lot of money to find those proverbial needles in the case law haystack. No money for lawyers, no protection of the law.
Likewise, the corrupted DemocanRepublicrat congressmen routinely write laws that exceed the authority of the Constitution and other common laws. If you acquiesce to the jurisdiction of those inferior laws, they are what you get. They are easily defeated with the superior, common law, if you use KNOWLEDGE.
The protection of the jurisdiction of common law requires that you expressly invoke it rather than stay mired down in the millions of inferior statute, case, regulatory and other such "laws". Your choice is based on your KNOWLEDGE.
The system was created by obviously repugnant lawyers/judges to progressively centralize their highly lucrative power.
You cannot access the common law through a lawyer. They make their money keeping you inside the maze of inferior laws, and their lawyer-written government license limits them to the inferior laws.
The citizen's organizations, such as the American Alpine Club, Access Fund, National Rifle Association and all others were easily usurped by flim-flamming lawyers because Americans have become so dumbed down, especially climbers, especially their environmentalist leaders.
The controlling concept is YOUR knowledge.
If enough climbers were to get the word out that the AmerAC and Access Fund were screwing over climbers, and to stop supporting those organizations or their supporters, an effective process could start. But notice the 30 to 1 rhetorical attacks those climbers would get from the dumbed-down, unquestioning, gullible climbers, if they attempted to get the word out among even the small obscure group of climbers. Consider what routinely happens when you attempt to convey knowledge in the face of the multi-million dollar lawyer-owned, dumbed-down NRA gun owners.
Therefore, the controlling concept is YOUR knowledge. You can then laugh at the idiots and their lawyers who perceive that their ignorance rules all people.
If you do not have time to learn the knowledge, do not worry. The ignorant Americans are about to collapse their empire, by design.
Enjoy the show.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:07pm PT
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LEB.....
The common law covers those things. They are identifiable damage to real persons and property. The public land is owned by real persons.
Your straw man illusions successfully fool many fools, primarily yourself, or you would not have stated them, and the rest of the dumbed-down Americans who believe that illusion.
There is no need to change the law. The common law covers all damages. One only need to learn the prevailing law to not be the victim of malicious Park Service and lawyer thugs.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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LEB
1. Defined in the law dictionary.
2. In the law library.
3. The written law.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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Yoooo the bomb-proof Piton.....
The reason knowledge of the common law is so rare is because it is written REASONING, not written succintness.
Reasoning process could have been easily taught in the government's public schools (two days of classes, 5th grade or higher) but reasoning destroys the POWER of government, and of school teachers.
The writers of the US Constitution stated its dependence on an educated, literate society. The US DemocanRepublicrat Regime recognized that they could centralize their power above the limits in the Constitution by merely destroying the education system with the modern governmental process for the "public schools".
People with power never teach or discuss reasoning except to save themselves or their institutional colleagues in dire, rare situations where THEIR power cannot escape reasoning.
Inferior laws are succinct. "If you do this you will go to jail". But they are void of reasoning, or they would not be inferior laws, and not be succinct.
Abandon your desire for succintness, to therefore access the universe of advanced knowledge. Leave the police, lawyers and their offspring to their amusing, self-defeating ignorance.
Simply read or listen to words of REASONING more carefully, and ask related questions. Answer them.
Or some sort of round-about like that.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:43pm PT
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LEB
Thank you for your superlative response to yourself, much to the grand laughter of the readers.
Fools are lawyers.
Half the lawyers lose their case.
Read that as often as you must to learn the concept of lawyers, and what they know about law.
Do you tie the knot to your harness half the time?
Can you find any climbing partners?
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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Skipt....
I got no money.
Owned in common.
But let me know if the others agree to you selling your share.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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Skipt....
Do I need to show you more logic?
Most people try to figure it out themselves.
Owned in common... You own your share but it is not divided out of the whole. If you want your share divided out, you must get the others to agree.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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Off to the projects...
I will check back later, to verify the inherent void of IDENTIFIED lawyers ANSWERING the question of the cool Grand Master of the Couch.
Now where did the post button go? It is usually closer to the bottom line of my succinct responses.
Doug
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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I read THAT.
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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"The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the united states or of any particular state."
-The constitution of the United States Article IV,section3 clause 2(property clause)
The congress passed the organic act of 1916 wich gave designated officials in the national park service the authority to enforce all federal laws. The organic act was repealed by the general authorities act of 1976. The General Authorities act gave new enforcement authority to the national park service; it was designed to be more specific than the organic act. (It’s been awhile since I've been through the academy but i am pretty sure that’s the way that all works)
Now I am going to move onto the code of federal regulation (CFR), specifically title 36 of the CFR which covers Parks, Forests and Public Property.
Congress passed the administrative procedures act of 1946 which gives the administrative branches of the government the authority to make rules that are open to public comment before they are enacted, after the process set out in the administrative procedures act are followed, these rules are published in the federal register. These rules are known as the code of federal regulations.
TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY
CHAPTER I--NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
PART 71--RECREATION FEES--Table of Contents
Sec. 71.10 Special recreation permits and special recreation permit fees.
(a) Special recreation permits may be required in accordance with
procedures established by the administering bureaus for specialized
recreation uses, such as, but not limited to, group activities,
recreation events, and the use of motorized recreation vehicles. In any
instance where such a permit is required, the following conditions must
be satisfied:
(1) The use complies with pertinent State and Federal laws and
regulations on public health, safety, air quality, and water quality;
(2) The use will not adversely impact archeological, historic or
primitive values and is not in conflict with existing resource
management programs and objectives;
(3) The necessary clean-up and restoration is made for any damage to
resources or facilities; and
(4) The use is restricted, to the extent practicable, to an area
where minimal impact is imposed on the environmental, cultural or
natural resource values.
(b) Fees for special recreation permits shall be established by all
outdoor recreation bureaus of the Department of the Interior issuing
such permits in accordance with the following criteria:
(1) The direct and indirect cost to the Government;
(2) The benefit to the recipient;
(3) The public policy or interest served;
(4) The comparable recreation fees charged by other Federal and non-
Federal public agencies within the service area of the management unit
at which the fee is charged;
(5) The economic and administrative feasibility of fee collection;
and
(6) Other pertinent factors.
I think thats about as clear as I can get.
This is all Based on constitutional law, I dont know how you can argue that use limits are unlawful.
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