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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 20, 2008 - 09:40am PT
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On another thread Doug Buchanan said: "PHYSICALLY ASK THE QUESTIONS: Do citizens hold a RIGHT to walk on public land ...not fenced for identifiable material security? Does the government hold the authority to demand permission or charge a fee...for the exercise of a RIGHT? ....
YOU ARE UNDER THE RULE OF WRITTEN LAW, NOT UNDER THE RULE OF LYING LAWYERS AND JUDGES. LEARN YOUR RULER OR REMAIN PREY FOR MALICIOUS PARK SERVICE RANGERS AND THEIR SELF-SERVING LAWYERS.
READ SLOWLY.... A Park Service regulation can be in harmony with a Statute law in harmony with the common law, and therefore valid. "
So if, of the half a million words I've read from Doug are distilled to this and I understand it. He is saying that there is a common law which holds that we can walk on our (public) land without restriction unless it is fenced for some security reason. A law gets passed which makes us pay to park or to walk on said land - this is inherently at odds with earlier common law. However, if we do not contest this new (illegal) law, it becomes like common law and has force?
IS THIS TRUE?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 20, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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not only false, but delusional.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
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The golden age is over.
The world will be inherited by bottle washers and button sorters.
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:18pm PT
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many people have tried this argument in court, they always lose. I think LEB hit it right on the head.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:35pm PT
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I'll give it a go. There are several sources of law in the United States. The Constitution is supreme. If anything conflicts with the Constitution, the conflicting provisions yield.
Congress has the power, granted explicitly in the Constitution, to enact laws. This statutory law (written in the United States Code or, occasionally, in general statutes) serves as the source of much of the body of federal (and, in California, state) law.
The legislative branch may, by statute, provide that an agency of the executive brach (e.g., the Forest Service, BLM, Park Service, etc.) may regulate use of public lands (or anything else owned by the government). When the designated agency makes rules on the use of the land, they are within the rights delegated to them by the legislative branch. If you don't like it, elect different representatives.
Where there is no explicit Constitutional or statutory provision, the common law (the recorded decisions of appellate courts) controls. The people who make the sorts of arguments to which this thread refers make two mistakes:
1. Assuming the common law takes precedence over Constitutional and statutory law, including desicisions of executive agencies exercising their delegated authority; and
2. Assuming that any citizem owns public lands as a tenant in common, and therefore has a non-exclusive right to use it.
As stated earlier, both arguments lost in court (i.e., the common law) -- and long ago. They may sound convincing, but the doctrine of stare decisis (settled case law) says otherwise.
Hope that helps
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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John,
I don't think that you could state it more lucidly.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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Lawyers will not identify themselves and answer the question in regard to "law", only "legal opinion" which is a fool's illusion, as required and indemnified by their government license.
The most they will do is brag about their high titles and credentials, then verifiably lie.
Simply ask any lawyer if they are representing the prevailing law or legal opinion / legal advice, ON VERIFIABLE RECORD. Ask if you are required to obey law, opinion or advice.
(I was arrested because of the tape recorder.)
A consistency of (usually higher) court findings, over centuries, for each separate basic human action has already created the common law, with one primary finding which can be cited. It is possible but unlikely that any new common law will be created. The test of time has identified all the basic human actions.
Certain other processes to create common law are alluded to and not FULLY explained, to create confusion, but rarely happen and do not damage your rights.
A reason the common law protects your rights is that the real or metaphorical judge's daughter eventually performed that action and was taken to court. A fellow judge, fearing such type reprisal WITHIN HIS INSTITUTION, expressed REASONING to describe in that case law the action's lawful nature because it damaged no person or property, and did not threaten society to the established high standards of the common law.
The written REASONING and its forum process subsequently prevailed for a reason inherent to the human mind's design.
Accessing the protection of the common law requires learning the arrangements of words that prevail above the ever-increasing rhetorical illusions presented by repugnant lower court judges (lawyers in robes) to fool you into acquiescing to the inferior law jurisdictions and courts of their raw power above the superior law that protects THEIR INSTITUTION INSIDER'S.
ONLY your acquiescing to the inferior law can lawfully separate you from your rights, by law.
Applications of uncontested inferior laws victimizing you unfavored mere common peasants (climbers) will not change the superior common law. The REASONING of the common law cannot be successfully changed, for a reason in the process of reasoning no American school has taught in over a century, especially Harvard, Yale, Cambridge and the other ivy (idiot) league universities.
The process to ACCESS the protection of the prevailing law in courts has become the scam of perfidious lawyers/judges.
Americans have been dumbed-down by an ACTUAL PROCESS (natural, not conspiracy), or questions over the nation's ruler (common law) could not still exist. Until I ASKED THE QUESTIONS to learn how the categorically repugnant lawyers have been defrauding even their own offspring, and the rest of us, out of human rights, I was as dumb as mud on that issue (in addition to most other things).
If you are the son or daughter of a lawyer, ASK THE QUESTIONS that prove your parent repugnantly betrayed you and your friends more than any non-lawyer parent would ever even consider, intentionally keeping you ignorant of how to access or defend your human RIGHTS, as RIGHTS, in courts, and ignorant of how to ask them effective questions.
The POWER of lawyers, like all power, is DEPENDENT upon keeping people ignorant, including the offspring of power-addicted thugs. Power and knowledge are mutually exclusive.
Amusingly, because the balance is perfect in all things, and the human mind was designed to become more curious as contradictions compound, the offspring of lawyers, judges and National Park Service thugs will eventually learn that their parents or grandparents were the most contemptible, repugnant living flesh on the planet, much to the amusement of the observers.
Climbers will hold the American Alpine Club, Access Fund, their gullible supporters and the lawyers who owned those money-grubbing organizations in unmitigated contempt for the rest of history.
And the US National Park Service will TOTALLY destroy the National Park system, on schedule. National Parks will become the primary lesson on how to never manage public land.
Enjoy the show.
Doug
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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did someone just $hit in here?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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Doug,
I'm on your side, but if you want me to read them please post more succintly.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 20, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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"Lawyers will not identify themselves and answer the question in regard to "law", only "legal opinion" which is a fool's illusion, as required and indemnified by their government license.
At least two attorneys have already answered the OP.
Its impossible to address Doug's posts. He has no understanding of the legal system, and is just making shyte up.
I laugh robustly. Enjoy the show, Atcha
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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Notice the obviously ignorant people who suggest the common line of: "reality", "the way it is", "that is the way it happens", "what is now", etceteras. THEY DO NOT ASK OR ANSWER QUESTIONS.
Notice the questions they did not answer.
They are the ignorant chaps upon whom power successfully preys.
Be them, or learn knowledge. Your choice. You learn knowledge by asking and answering questions, not reading or making statements.
A million people can pay the fine and go to jail, much to the "I-told-you-so" delight of the ignorance purveyors, then one person can express simple knowledge in court, for the same action, and walk away. (I have assisted people in doing so.)
Your choice. Easy to stay stupid. A bit of effort to learn knowledge. You must ACTUALLY ask and answer questions.
Courts function on knowledge. Thugs function on power. Police, lawyer and judge thugs in court can be held to knowledge because the court system prevails, by design, if you learn the KNOWLEDGE.
The US Constitution is a common law document. The US is a common law nation. Common law prevails above all laws in the US. At the edge of the US, in water, Maritime Law prevails, and is as good as common law.
As to the matter of statute and Public laws... Park Service and all agency regulations, codes, etceteras, cannot LAWFULLY exceed the exact limiting words of the legislatively adopted laws, or the agencies would have more power than congressmen, in fact, the power of kings (Congressmen will not let that happen). Same with legislatively allowed Executive Orders.
The Park Service and other agencies constantly write regulations that vastly exceed their statutory authority, and routinely use them to fine and imprison the dumbed-down Americans, much to the delight of idiot police mentalities yelling, "See, I told you so", "that's the way it works". Congressmen do not care only if it generates the excuses for more laws and taxes (fines), which is why it does.
But knowledgeable people can and routinely do defeat those unlawful applications of authority, within the inferior statute laws, without invoking the common law. So lawyers and judges merely do not mention those case laws when convicting each next victim. The victim must pay a lawyer a lot of money to find those proverbial needles in the case law haystack. No money for lawyers, no protection of the law.
Likewise, the corrupted DemocanRepublicrat congressmen routinely write laws that exceed the authority of the Constitution and other common laws. If you acquiesce to the jurisdiction of those inferior laws, they are what you get. They are easily defeated with the superior, common law, if you use KNOWLEDGE.
The protection of the jurisdiction of common law requires that you expressly invoke it rather than stay mired down in the millions of inferior statute, case, regulatory and other such "laws". Your choice is based on your KNOWLEDGE.
The system was created by obviously repugnant lawyers/judges to progressively centralize their highly lucrative power.
You cannot access the common law through a lawyer. They make their money keeping you inside the maze of inferior laws, and their lawyer-written government license limits them to the inferior laws.
The citizen's organizations, such as the American Alpine Club, Access Fund, National Rifle Association and all others were easily usurped by flim-flamming lawyers because Americans have become so dumbed down, especially climbers, especially their environmentalist leaders.
The controlling concept is YOUR knowledge.
If enough climbers were to get the word out that the AmerAC and Access Fund were screwing over climbers, and to stop supporting those organizations or their supporters, an effective process could start. But notice the 30 to 1 rhetorical attacks those climbers would get from the dumbed-down, unquestioning, gullible climbers, if they attempted to get the word out among even the small obscure group of climbers. Consider what routinely happens when you attempt to convey knowledge in the face of the multi-million dollar lawyer-owned, dumbed-down NRA gun owners.
Therefore, the controlling concept is YOUR knowledge. You can then laugh at the idiots and their lawyers who perceive that their ignorance rules all people.
If you do not have time to learn the knowledge, do not worry. The ignorant Americans are about to collapse their empire, by design.
Enjoy the show.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:07pm PT
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LEB.....
The common law covers those things. They are identifiable damage to real persons and property. The public land is owned by real persons.
Your straw man illusions successfully fool many fools, primarily yourself, or you would not have stated them, and the rest of the dumbed-down Americans who believe that illusion.
There is no need to change the law. The common law covers all damages. One only need to learn the prevailing law to not be the victim of malicious Park Service and lawyer thugs.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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LEB
1. Defined in the law dictionary.
2. In the law library.
3. The written law.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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Yoooo the bomb-proof Piton.....
The reason knowledge of the common law is so rare is because it is written REASONING, not written succintness.
Reasoning process could have been easily taught in the government's public schools (two days of classes, 5th grade or higher) but reasoning destroys the POWER of government, and of school teachers.
The writers of the US Constitution stated its dependence on an educated, literate society. The US DemocanRepublicrat Regime recognized that they could centralize their power above the limits in the Constitution by merely destroying the education system with the modern governmental process for the "public schools".
People with power never teach or discuss reasoning except to save themselves or their institutional colleagues in dire, rare situations where THEIR power cannot escape reasoning.
Inferior laws are succinct. "If you do this you will go to jail". But they are void of reasoning, or they would not be inferior laws, and not be succinct.
Abandon your desire for succintness, to therefore access the universe of advanced knowledge. Leave the police, lawyers and their offspring to their amusing, self-defeating ignorance.
Simply read or listen to words of REASONING more carefully, and ask related questions. Answer them.
Or some sort of round-about like that.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:43pm PT
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LEB
Thank you for your superlative response to yourself, much to the grand laughter of the readers.
Fools are lawyers.
Half the lawyers lose their case.
Read that as often as you must to learn the concept of lawyers, and what they know about law.
Do you tie the knot to your harness half the time?
Can you find any climbing partners?
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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Skipt....
I got no money.
Owned in common.
But let me know if the others agree to you selling your share.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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Skipt....
Do I need to show you more logic?
Most people try to figure it out themselves.
Owned in common... You own your share but it is not divided out of the whole. If you want your share divided out, you must get the others to agree.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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Off to the projects...
I will check back later, to verify the inherent void of IDENTIFIED lawyers ANSWERING the question of the cool Grand Master of the Couch.
Now where did the post button go? It is usually closer to the bottom line of my succinct responses.
Doug
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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I read THAT.
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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"The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the united states or of any particular state."
-The constitution of the United States Article IV,section3 clause 2(property clause)
The congress passed the organic act of 1916 wich gave designated officials in the national park service the authority to enforce all federal laws. The organic act was repealed by the general authorities act of 1976. The General Authorities act gave new enforcement authority to the national park service; it was designed to be more specific than the organic act. (It’s been awhile since I've been through the academy but i am pretty sure that’s the way that all works)
Now I am going to move onto the code of federal regulation (CFR), specifically title 36 of the CFR which covers Parks, Forests and Public Property.
Congress passed the administrative procedures act of 1946 which gives the administrative branches of the government the authority to make rules that are open to public comment before they are enacted, after the process set out in the administrative procedures act are followed, these rules are published in the federal register. These rules are known as the code of federal regulations.
TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY
CHAPTER I--NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
PART 71--RECREATION FEES--Table of Contents
Sec. 71.10 Special recreation permits and special recreation permit fees.
(a) Special recreation permits may be required in accordance with
procedures established by the administering bureaus for specialized
recreation uses, such as, but not limited to, group activities,
recreation events, and the use of motorized recreation vehicles. In any
instance where such a permit is required, the following conditions must
be satisfied:
(1) The use complies with pertinent State and Federal laws and
regulations on public health, safety, air quality, and water quality;
(2) The use will not adversely impact archeological, historic or
primitive values and is not in conflict with existing resource
management programs and objectives;
(3) The necessary clean-up and restoration is made for any damage to
resources or facilities; and
(4) The use is restricted, to the extent practicable, to an area
where minimal impact is imposed on the environmental, cultural or
natural resource values.
(b) Fees for special recreation permits shall be established by all
outdoor recreation bureaus of the Department of the Interior issuing
such permits in accordance with the following criteria:
(1) The direct and indirect cost to the Government;
(2) The benefit to the recipient;
(3) The public policy or interest served;
(4) The comparable recreation fees charged by other Federal and non-
Federal public agencies within the service area of the management unit
at which the fee is charged;
(5) The economic and administrative feasibility of fee collection;
and
(6) Other pertinent factors.
I think thats about as clear as I can get.
This is all Based on constitutional law, I dont know how you can argue that use limits are unlawful.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 07:28pm PT
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LY you into and was as designed the primary finding the primary finding the primary finding the primary finding the common law can be cited. It is that case law, opinion" which is a fool's illusive. LY you into and was as designed the primary finding their owned the primary finding the common law, opinion" which is that any new common laws victional Parks will become their
owned the primary finding their owned to learn the primary finding the primary finding the primary finding the primary finding t
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Parn be primary fing the law, opinion law, on law, opinto as a fing th on le prion law, whiction becommon their law, on be primarks vich oping the primary fool's whiction law, opinion that a fool's a fool's viction law, on law, oping that a finion the that as desive. It cas the common" which on law, on law case come law, oping the their on" whiction law, on leary fing that any new cithe primarks any fing that andindinding the primary ned will Parks ill be cithe primary fing that case laws any finto
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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Thats Funny!!!
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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I believe Doug's arguments we got a chance too few choice spots as clear and our access something forth the problem is about any sort of us want to use to have our vacation time would it gets rathere? Perhaps he were too few choice spots as it to sense.
Too many of us want to put for there? Perhaps he believe Doug's argument for us and our access to the position time would be the environments we love could easily become and with people (population fishing someone before sense.
Too many of us
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
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if you feel that you need to excuse yourself for asking, should you really be asking?
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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Gle. Excuse me me for asking but you juse for are is comple. Excuse for
SS, what you sober rigiblen Gle. Excuse is completellimber
For rigible. Excuse for:
LEB
For:
cligible. Excust now? Aut gible. Excust you juse me is complete me is complen Gle. Excuse is complen Glen Gart art girl, what gible. Excust what you sober askinte you smare for a smart girl,
For a sober
For askinte me for:
Frotely uninte for art girl,
cligiblete is complete me me for a smart you smar
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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Trad climber
Frong?
if for a moong, should climber
Trad to excuse asking
From: hourse a moong, shad you feed thou feelf yould climbe yoursel to excuse asking Strom: hor:
Tradow
if you for asking, shopping on asking, shou need that
Standit you neel to excuself yould you neel to excuse a moonshadow
Eding
Edit
Authad to excusel to excuse asking?
Strom: hor asking?
Authat
Eding?
Strom: hopping, shopping
Authad to excuself yourse a moonshor:
From: hopping Strom:
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
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LEB,
I agree, doug (according to his profile) lives in fairbanks, AK, things are different here in alaska, but how does the song go,"you dont know what you've got till its gone"?. People can be upset about the laws but beliving that they dont exist dosnt make it so. I understand being upset about having to pay fees or haveing to have a permit, but ive accepted that in this day in age, its the only way to keep our public lands operating in a way that is going to allow for future use with the least amount of impairment to the resource(thats my oppinion, everyone is welcome to theirs).If you feel you dont have to pay fees or get permits thats your Prerogative, but when you go to court to fight the citation dont try and use a made up fantasy law as an excuse to do whatever you want,you will lose.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:36pm PT
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I'm all cozied up to see LEB and Doug type each other to death but Dougie types a few succinct posts and excuses himself.
;-(
Maybe he really DOES know some secret wisdom.
Meanwhile SS adds some new challenges in post decryption. What's the Internet coming to?
PEace
Karl
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:43pm PT
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Karl ch other
;-(
Trad Doug to dealleng to decreand ch but Dougied com. Whalle net decryption.
Author:
Trad excusecret wisdomite, Ca few secrype
;-(
Trad Doug type LEB ally DOES know somite, Ca few som: Yost post post Doug to?
I'm alle som: Yost posts ad climses inct posts see excusecret posee somiter to decret come somite, Ca
;-(
PEace secryption.
PEach othe excuself.
PEach but post DOES and Dougied com.
Karl ch oth but wisdom.
Author:
Tradds and cozie
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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"Maybe he really DOES know some secret wisdom."
And that would be?
as for SS, I think she's making fun of how seriously we are taking dougs rants, as she should.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2008 - 09:31pm PT
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I'd like to think SS is trying to show Doug that communication attempts that don't regard the reader are futile.
but perhaps that kind of interpretation is how Chancy Gardner rose to power.
Lois, I'm sure Doug will have a firmer handle once you explain how things work down here.
peace
Karl
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 20, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
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i love it when people speculate on what i'm thinking
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 20, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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well, speculations aside, what are you thinking?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
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Back from the projects. Getting ready to go Chitina dipnetting early AM, among other things.
The process by which Baby Tool lawyers easily fool gullible people who ask no questions is to not answer the questions of otherwise illuminated contradictions, and instead present usually accurate information about a similar concept.
They do not answer questions.
What Baby Tool stated was generally accurate. But it did not resolve the contradictions I revealed in the accurate information I stated. I resolved those contradictions, but unquestioning people do not know how to slowly read and understand plain English words of REASONING, such as herein.
If the Park Service has the authority to make rules, then it is either an absolute king with life and death power over everyone, or something limits its regulatory power.
Dishonest lawyers and government thugs talk about the authority in law.
People who value YOUR rights, for which many good people died HORRIBLE deaths, talk about the limits in law.
Fools ask no questions. They attack the other guy and support their guy, instead of asking real questions of both, to remain ignorant prey their entire lives.
An example for all Park Service/lawyer tactics: Public Law 89-249, passed by Congress, gave the Park Service authority to create Concession Permits to limit the number of (profitable) hotels in National Parks, for logical space limitation considerations. It is a good reasoning-based statute law.
But the insatiably greedy Park Service thugs (all government) generated millions of dollars of permit fees and bribes from the unaccountably awarded monopoly permits. The Park Service therefore extended the concession permits to activities not provided for in Public Law 89-249. Climbing and other outdoor adventure guides were included, in criminal violation of a superior law that LIMITS the raw power of every government agency. I referenced that superior law earlier in this thread.
The Baby Tools of the Park Service accurately claimed the authority of the law. The American Alpine Club and Sierra Club insiders who got the highly lucrative permits loudly talked about the authority of the law.
Only the Alaskan Alpine Club among American climbers simply read the law and openly stated the two LIMITING clauses that precluded the lawful application of the law to climbing guides.
We recommend that all stupid, illiterate climbers believe the Baby Tools and his parroting choir on his chain, and the Park Service, because stupid climbers are high quality entertainment.
Learn to read, or do as lying lawyers dictate.
As an aside, several national news entities showed President Reagan holding the copy of CRF Title 36 the Alaskan Alpine Club sent Reagan after we were through reading it. We had cut it in half and suggested he throw away the larger half in his deregulation process. He laughed, as he was known for doing, and suggested throwing away both halves.
To further fool you fools who believe rather than question the Baby Tools, when a non-concession permit climbing guide attempted to defend against his arrest, in court, under the inferior laws, the Park Service lawyers recognized that they would lose the case on that law which was unlawfully applied, so they prosecuted with a different law (bait and switch) relating to business permits, not concession permits. The business permit was not available to climbing guides, only the concession permit.
The obviously dishonest-as-usual judge found in favor of the Park Service on the business permit.
That is how all government agencies, THEIR lawyers and THEIR judges function. They are fundamentally repugnant humans corrupted by petty power, teaching their offspring to be stupid and unable to answer simple questions, as history proves of government thugs. That is how they get their money from stupid people.
Bait and switch with laws is a primary tactic of lawyers.
Lawyers lie if their lips are moving. Stupid people believe them because government gave lawyers a licensed title to be dishonest. Dumb humans are easily fooled with titles, such as that of a KING or LAWYER who are really just common people made stupid by a corrupting title.
Learn such things, the hard way, by thinking (asking and answering questions), or stay stupid like Baby Tool, for the entertainment of reasoning people.
So Baby Tool and your lawyer ilk, the question remains: Under penalty of fraud, do American war veterans and all other citizens hold the RIGHT (as defined by the US Supreme Court in harmony with common law) to walk on federal public land not fenced with chain link fence for identifiable material security reasons?
Some Iraq and Afghan war veterans who slaughtered a lot of Iraqi and Afghan civilians as "collateral damage" want to know if they were fighting for their rights, and the rights of their families, or for the Park Service authority of the British Kings who charged peasants a fee to walk on the Crown Lands.
Hey, where did Baby Tool go?
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 10:49pm PT
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Public laws are adopted by YOUR elected congressmen.
WHY would you need to then change them to administer them?
What is wrong with the words debated and adopted by the elected representatives?
CFR's are Codes, written by lawyers, NOT elected representatives. Lawyers, police, bureaucrats, judges and their ilk verbally state that the Codes state what the law authorizes. Literate people can read both and recognize that the aforementioned are lying.
Why do you need different words, which create different laws, to administer the words of the laws adopted by the elected representatives of the people, if not to create the POWER of the lawyers writing the different words/laws.
Regulations are written by lawyers, NOT elected representatives. They FURTHER change the words and therefore the laws.
"In law, the import of the word is everything." The words must hold their meanings. Each arrangement of different words in law creates a different law.
Come on climbers, your rights are worth more than the money scammed by the Baby Tools and his team unquestioning minions on the chain.
Why is the Alaskan Alpine Club the only climbing organization in the US that talks about YOUR RIGHTS, while the Park Service flunkies rail against every mention of such things?
And indeed check out FreedomOutlaws.com.
Oh, Chicken Little only missed his guess on WHEN the sky was going to fall. A guy with a top hat will know a little sooner, and have time to duck, and warn his friends.
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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There are no good lawyers.
Simply ask your lawyer if he is representing the law, or legal advice / legal opinion.
Ask him if you must obey the law, opinion or advice.
Notice who did not answer those previously asked questions.
Did you not want to know the LAW? Well? Figure it out.
Under the law that establishes lawyers and attorneys as government-licensed titles, your lawyer is required to keep you within the jurisdiction of the inferior laws that grant only privileges at whim of inherently corrupted judges, and deny you access to the prevailing common law that protects your RIGHTS.
By law, a lawyer is beholding to the absolute rule of the presiding officer of the court (da judge), as a king, and the court is an EQUITY court, not a court of the common law. By law, a lawyer is required to help send you to the gallows if the judge so rules even though the lawyer knows you violated no prevailing law and could be protected by the prevailing law, or the lawyer will lose his money-raking government license.
Wise to be represented by "Counsel" who is NOT a lawyer.
Concurrently, it is wise to learn how to represent yourself, with those words, NOT, pro se which invokes an obscure lawyer-written law that surrenders your RIGHTS.
If you do not have time to learn such things, which most people do not have, vote Libertarian or nobody, as entertainment, and keep track of the first opportunity to do to lawyers what is going to happen to them when the people discover how they defrauded American war veterans, climbers and everyone else, including their own offspring, of their RIGHTS.
It might be a grand closing act.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 11:29pm PT
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LEB....
What you state in regard to responsibility is true.
Therefore vote Libertarian because the DemocanRepublicrats learned how to fool fools with the inferior law intermediaries to dilute the effect of the public anger.
But the public anger is therefore increasing. The Park Service fines hundreds of thousands of people who know they harmed nothing and nobody. They may pay, but they will retaliate, by design of the human mind.
How bad do you want to let it get? Climbers, including war veterans, must pay an old British king-styled $200 tax for the RIGHT to walk on their public land of Denali. Want to try for $500? The Americans slaugthered a lot of Brits to get out from under that system of law.
Inferior law property taxes and prevailing law private property rights are mutually exclusive. When the common people recognize that costly scam, get out of the way.
The reason the Kremlin boys did not roll the tanks one more time was because the Soviet people, stifled under the American-styled bureaucracy, were just about to break into the Kremlin and kill all the government chaps.
The Soviet people were not armed.
The Americans are armed, and may not be so kind when the ruse and world-class historic damages caused by lying American lawyers finally become recognized by the public.
Let me know if you want the protection of reasoning, since the use of force is doomed after it effects its damage. The use of violent force is popular among the armed citizenry that the US government has taught to use force, rather than reasoning, to solve problems.
I may have time to assist you, if you ask soon enough. There are two processes to cause reasoning to prevail above power, neither known by any lawyer or any government dolt of any government, by design, or wars and prisons could not exist.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 20, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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LEB....
I am rather familiar with courts, much to the delight of certain people who would have been convicted under the inferior laws.
I have written contracts, corporation papers, common law trusts, statute law trusts and much more of what you foolishly perceive as the exclusive realm of the lawyer kings.
Lawyers are idiots who actually believe their illusions.
To successfully fool others, you must first fool your own mind, or your words would not ring true to fools.
So what are the answers to the previous questions?
Hey, where did LEB go?
Doug
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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"Lawyers are idiots who actually believe their illusions."
While likely true, I rate this thread a 'one-two punch' of trolling.
so let's say T2 and T2 for the combo, yielding a T4.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:46am PT
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I laughed.
Chitina Dipnetting early AM if all does not go awry.
Time for LEB
LEB......
A question started this thread, yet not answered.
My questions are very few, repeated for emphasis, and easily identified with the.... ? ....at the end of each sentence.
If a lawyer is too dumb to answer a scant few basic questions about the law, he will ask for fewer questions.
There will never be few enough if they are QUESTIONS.
Read what lawyers write, then laugh yourself to tears when they suggest that other people write less.
Lawyers are more fun than new climbing gear.
DougBuchanan.com
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:49am PT
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I think it's time for a Doug Buchanan legal treatise.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:59am PT
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Doug, when your done sorting this out for everyone, please take on the task of sorting out the Army Corps of Engineers. I'm pretty sure they perfected the art of self implied regulations that are conflicting to the point of proving the universe bends around itself.
Just in case you need something to do.
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L
climber
Far off places where I left lipstick traces...
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:07am PT
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I just read this entire thread...and I have to laugh.
If you read enough of Doug's writing, you start to understand the language. And it is another language. The trick is that you actually have to read what he's written...not what you think he's written.
And he does repeat himself...for our sakes...and he does end his questions with a ?
I looked, but I don't think I saw an actual answer to his question. Saw what John E. wrote...but that didn't sound like a direct answer to the "walking on public land" question.
Or am I mistaken? ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:19am PT
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"To refuse to learn how the device was made, is to deny your access to its greatest utility." Doug Buchanan
I believe you need to take your own advice and dive deeper.
You're still scratching on the surface ......
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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Yoooo JohnBoy.....
How did you know that I also worked for the United States Army Corps of Engineers, my second-longest job after completing school?
My job was to spend public tax money to drive heavy equipment and weld, to place all manner of major access gates, burms and obstacles to keep the public out of THEIR public land so the Flood Control Project manager could maintain his personal several thousand acre private moose hunting preserve.
What? You guessed? He was a career Park manager before, during and after his Army adventure, which got him his Flood Control Project job protecting Fairbanks from floods, with a Corps of Engineers long damn that was formally declared useless soon after it was built.
My stint there was a desperation job for 6 months. Yes, I caused great grief for the idiot in charge.
The project is useless, and making the river siltation/next flood worse, but it is still a private hunting reserve for the Project Manager.
The gullible humans who believe rather than question government-titled idiots are the best comedy on the rock.
Hey LEB, Access Fund, American Alpine Club and their Park Service worshipers, why no answers to the questions ?
Or was that one too many questions for a lawyer's mind?
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:35am PT
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WBraum...
The process would not be to dive deeper, a process of diving, but to instead ask more questions of more complex contradictions.
I did.
All of this is just old superficial climber issue entertainment, because I am a climber. Fun stuff.
What are your questions?
They are too easy.
Wisely ask many questions of your own answers to your questions before you suggest one for another person, because it will reveal your intellectual laziness for having not asked the next obvious question to reveal the answer you seek.
Hey, where did LEB go? What is the answer to the first question of this thread?
Notice that not one American Alpine Club or Access Fund leader can accountably answer it, while thousands of gullible American climbers and equipment manufacturers keep dumping their money and other support into such ignorant or dishonest climbing organization leaders.
Pity the cool climbing chicks who put their photos on the costly Access Fund advertisements begging for more money, when they discover they were used for a money grab that guarantees the continued climbing restrictions that create the excuses for more Access Fund money begging.
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:38am PT
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Access Fund money, when the costly Access Fund money, when the continued climbing chicks who put the cool climbing chicks who put their photos on the costly Access Fund advertisements begging. Pity the costly Access Fund advertisements begging chicks who put they discover they discover they discover they discover they discover the excuses for more Access Fund advertisements begging restrictions that create their photos on they were used for more money, when the cool climbing for more Access Fund mon
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:40am PT
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Questions?
Then who are you?
If you don't know the "real" answer to that then you have failed all your external "work".
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:43am PT
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LEB...
You will not see a question mark behind anything like what you suggested as my question.
When lawyers are too dumb to answer a question identified with a question mark (?), they invent another question and claim that you asked it.
LEB offers much knowledge about lawyers and how they fool fools out of their rights.
LEB, try the CouchMaster's question, not mine, in the lead post of this thread, or any one of my half dozen questions related to law.
Libertarians are just confused folks who want to gain the corruption of majority rule power. Their only advantage over the DemocanRepublicrats is that they still understand the words in the US Constitution.
LEB, are you trying to divert attention to your GayLesbian issue? If so, I suggest you start a new thread on that, with succinct statements.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:46am PT
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WBraun
"Questions?" is not a question, but a reasonable topic title.
I am Doug.
That is the real answer, unless you would like to ask what real is for YOUR consideration.
Doug
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:56am PT
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"Doug" you are not.
Therefore you have failed at the root.
Dig deeper ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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Not to blow his cover, but atch is a lawyer.
Maybe chazbro will comment, I have heard his views on this.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:05am PT
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LEB
Then why would you suggest a Libertarianism thread (GayLesbian right supporters), suggesting it as another person's issue, instead of answer the primary, lead post question of this thread while claiming that the other person's answer is wrong?
When you make a fool of yourself attempting to divert attention away from your expressed ignorance in relation to the thread's lead question, it is easy for anyone else to further make a fool of you by your own response to a diversion gambit.
So what is your answer to any one of the exactly worded questions of the law in relation to climber rights to walk on public land?
Or are three questions too many for lawyers?
Doug
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:18am PT
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Doug,
You seem like a nice and well-meaning humanoid, but your whole presentation and interpretation of laws and reasoning sound straight out of a prison law library, passed down from one slick talker to the next. It's so detatched from operable reality as to make one think you feel reality is something so facile you can manifest it just by saying this or that is so, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.
That faced with realities you don't care for, you simply create alternate realities couched and presented in a vocabulary, literary style, and inpenetrable pseudo-logic which deliberately obfusticates rather than enlightens. Frankly, I think it's pretty hard to illuminate ignorant minds by casting deep shadows across them, which is what I consider most of your postings to be - shadows.
Whatever your beliefs or views, your inability to convey them in simple terms rooted in obvious, common-sense contexts is the one clear thing that shines through all your posts. I have no doubt your whole approach works for, and is convincing to, folks who on their own find their way down to the end of whatever road you live on, but you're going to have to work a little harder to win any converts out here in wilds of the Internet.
And as a climber, I hesitate to ask if you have a belief system / tract around gravity for fear I'll learn physicists are inherently delusional for insisting we must all inevitably fall.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:23am PT
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Yooo Jaybro...
He already blew his cover.
Lawyers are easy.
We have superlative lawyer/judge parties in Fairbanks Alaska.
The lawyers/judges are still lawyers/judges here, taught in the same lower 48 law lie schools. But by social evolution at a more recently socialized geographical region, they have not been so thoroughly corrupted (self-fooled), and can still recognize an occasional reference to rudimentary reasoning.
Some of them are climbers who are climbers first, and lawyers second.
They laugh and make jokes about the idiot National Park Service thugs and other cops who actually believe their agency lawyers.
Have you ever wondered why lawyers are never given the traffic and other citations other people are given? Well?
Easily learn what lawyers learn. It is just a simpleton process of lying to everyone. That is why they cannot answer the type questions that reveal arenas of lawyer lies.
But you can answer those type questions, such as I have written. Answer them. Write your answers. You will learn much.
The reason that lawyer jokes are so funny, is because they are all true.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:33am PT
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Healyje.....
So what is the answer to the lead question of this thread?
The other readers noticed the obvious nature of your comments to avoid answering the illuminated questions.
If I know so little about the law, would not the answers to my few questions, from somebody who implied their knowledge of the law, bring me out of my ignorance in regard to those questions?
A lot of climbers want the answers to those questions. And you claim to be a fellow climber.
If I can answer them (easy), but know little or nothing about the law, and you cannot answer them, and know much about the law, what does a thinking person recognize of you and lawyers?
Notice how consistently the lawyers and cops have refused to answer those simple questions.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:36am PT
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LEB...
The issue of substance was the lead question of this thread.
Why would you state otherwise, if not for fear of it.
I do not hate lawyers or anybody or anything. I am amused by all concepts, including all people.
Lawyers and other government folks must invent hate where it does not exist. Power cannot exist without fabricated hate.
Silly humans.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:56am PT
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An informative example of how effective questions cause fear and anger in lying Park Service and lawyer power-damaged minds, while causing curiosity in normally reasoning minds who learn new knowledge from questions....
Some years ago, the Denali National Park Superintendent came to Fairbanks, at the invitation of the Alaskan Alpine Club, to explain his newly proposed climbing regulations.
We developed several EFFECTIVE questions, the answers to which every actual US climber verifiably wants to know.
After a half dozen politely asked questions that he obviously dared not answer because the questions revealed the unlawful nature of the regulations, he stood up and walked out of the meeting, leaving the Alaskan Alpine Club members well educated.
At a subsequent Park Service public hearing on regulations, in Fairbanks, at which another Park Service Superintendent was advertised to be attending, the Sup heard that I would be attending. So the Sup sent a flunkie instead, without warning him, some Tingey guy.
Many people of many interest groups attended. It took only three polite, logical questions to have the guy noticeably near tears and babbling about Park rangers "having feelings too", rhetorically tap dancing, and nervously walking back and forth trying to say things to avoid the questions.
So you climber lawyers... Do Iraq and Afghan war veterans who killed a lot of people to defend American RIGHTS, at profound psychological impact to them, hold the RIGHT to walk on open public land without paying the Park Service 200 dollars for that right?
Or do lawyers hold American war veterans in as much unmitigated contempt as do Park Service thugs?
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 21, 2008 - 03:12am PT
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Sorry Doug, they do not have the right. They are subject to the same rules as everyone else. I agree 200 dollars sounds bad, I guess that you are talking about a permit to climb Denali.
There is no physical fence around it , so you seem to think you should be able to hike up there anytime you want without restriction.
Perhaps you should come to Yosemite and witness what happens when there are no restrictions. Its not fun.
We had no limits on how many people could enter the park and lines formed to get into the park that were over 2 hours longs. The park became so crowded that it took 3 hours to drive the 20 mile loop in valley. This hindered park rescue personnel and made it difficult for anyone to enjoy the park.
You don't want rules, Well I am sorry. I do.
I do agree though that fees should be affordable.
What does a Doug controlled world look like? Any rules? And who enforces them since all lawyers are liars in your book, and all judges are on the take, and all park officials just want to protect their jobs instead of the wilderness.
Who is left to enforce the rules, or would you even HAVE rules?
Vigilantes perhaps?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 21, 2008 - 03:51am PT
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"Thus is an inferior law supported over a SUPERIOR law that would overturn it!"
Yes Rox, you are correct. Superior rules/laws should take precedent over inferior laws, thats why they are called superior rules/laws. We already have in place a system to take care of this. Is it perfect? Nope. No system is because humans run them.
The problem is that the system is run by humans with egos. No system, no matter how carefully it is devised, can take into account every situation that the human ego can mess with.
Would you get rid of ALL rules, just so a superior rules wasn't superseded by an inferior rule?
If you decide to keep some rules, how do you decide which ones are superior and then how do you decide who enforces them?
If you pick humans, then there will be egos involved and mistakes will be made. All too often you and Doug sound like you think we should junk the whole system. The problem is we tried the wild wild west. It wasn't as fun as the movies make it out to be.
So what is your solution?
Doug wants no fees in the park. Fine, how will he pay for the park? The people have said they prefer user fees to higher taxes. So how do you pay for park services?
If you get rid of park employess and park law enforcement, then who protects the park from the millions of fools out there? You have examples, well try this one on for size.
Some guy wants to cut down a giant sequoia just because it looks fun to do. So he does. You catch him with the sheriffs that Doug says are sort of okay and throw him in jail. How do you replace that giant sequoia that took 2000 years to grow? Wait 2000 years?
Wouldn't it be nice to stop him from cutting it down BEFORE he cuts it down?
User fees pay for the protection. If you want to argue that we shouldn't have user fees, then I am with you. I wish our tax dollars would fully fund the parks, but the people don't want it that way. They want lower taxes.
By the way, who decides that the tree should be protected? The people? Isn't the park service a representative of the people?
Oh mercy, Doug will now rant about how corrupt the park service is. Okay, they are corrupt. How do you protect the land you want to protect without a park service?
This is presuming you want to protect the land from abuse. Do you?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 04:03am PT
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John....
You do not question your words, and therefore upload examples of your ignorance.
Your words: "Sorry Doug, they do not have the right."
Who is they? What right?
My question was whether the people held the right to walk on public land. I advocate that right.
Your answer is illogical after the "Sorry".
The US Supreme Court disagrees with your apparent conclusion that the government holds a right to charge money for the exercise of a right. As repeatedly stated in plain English words that you and all dumbed-down Americans do not understand, a RIGHT is an action for which the government holds no authority to demand permission or charge a fee/tax.
Likewise the Supreme Court has found that need for restrictions on WALKING on public land must be directly reasoning based, such as lawfully limiting walking across busy streets, but even there no tax or demanded permission is lawful. Walking on open public land (outside cities) not fenced for material security is a RIGHT.
I know you have difficulty beyond sound bytes, but try to combine the concepts of the two above paragraphs.
By your reasoning, because a lot of people are criminals, the government holds the "right" (authority) to treat you and everyone else as a criminal. Your reasoning is that of Stalin, Hitler, Saddam and other stupid people like Park Service thugs who cannot distinguish between a criminal and non-criminal.
Because Yosemite is crowded in your parochial perception, there is no related reasoning to charge a tax for the right to walk on the nearly most uncrowded person/acre National Park land in the nation, Denali. Question your words before you upload them.
By your reasoning, the tax on walking in the more crowded Yosemite would be several thousand dollars. The suggestion illuminates the stupidity of climbers for not questioning the $200 they must pay.
The tax on climbing, and the existence of the National Park Service, like the Soviet system of governance, are doomed by their dependence on using malicious force to sustain contradictions. When they inherently collapse, the climbers will marvel at the abject stupidity of the American Alpine Club and Access Fund type climbers who were so gullible so long.
Power-damaged minds seek any excuses, even as bizarre as yours, to restrict other people, to therefore stagnate human advancement to the low level of mental midget central planners.
Reasoning minds apply no restrictions except where rational need is verifiable, to therefore derive the social benefits of free humans.
When I openly advocate the extensive common laws covering every human action, and you therefore suggest that I advocate no laws or restrictions, you define yourself as monumentally stupid as I was before I started asking questions of my words. That is really stupid.
It is certain that you and others of your ilk will die of old age still perceiving that YOU or your praised (Hitler style) government thugs must restrict all those other guys out there because they are out there.
In Japan they laugh at your perception of crowding in Parks, and have much nicer parks.
You are the other guy to 6.67 Billion other guys. You are that much worse that the other guys only you accuse of being bad.
John, figure it out. Stalin used your reasoning. Ask real questions of your statements before you upload them.
And keep on having fun.
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 04:24am PT
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John......
In your next post your statements are illogical, not prior questioned, especially your amusing accusations that defy what was already posted, and defy logic.
Each of your questions are already answered in prevailing law, but because you were taught to not ask EFFECTIVE questions, you failed to simply learn the existing laws, and therefore, like lawyers and bureaucrats, perceived a need to invent new, more self-serving laws to layer on top of previous laws, "because their is crowding, ATV's, terrorists and other illusions behind every Bush out there".
But each new invention facilitated more power for the bureaucrat and lawyer law writers, progressively creating so many power-creating contradictions on top of contradictions that you cannot understand your laws and therefore want more laws.
You are so self-confused with all your laws that if anyone suggests a contradiction in your laws, you accuse them of wanting no laws. John, look at your words. Is that not true of you?
Your ilk hired so many law writers needing so many unquestioning police thugs to enforce them that they had to impose new taxes/fees to pay for the mess and claim that the people want to pay the new taxes/fees. You idiot, the people do not want to pay the fees for the police who are only there to arrest the people who do not pay the fees to pay for the police.
Stop making a fool of yourself claiming that the people want to pay those fees. Fees demanded by government are TAXES.
However, you may have saved a few Red salmon if because I had so much fun with you Police State worshipers, for so long, that I get to the Copper River to dipnet after the the run peaks.
Doug
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 21, 2008 - 04:26am PT
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Sorry Doug, Here is the question you asked that I answered.
"So you climber lawyers... Do Iraq and Afghan war veterans who killed a lot of people to defend American RIGHTS, at profound psychological impact to them, hold the RIGHT to walk on open public land without paying the Park Service 200 dollars for that right?"
No they don't have the right to walk on any public land EDIT FOR DOUG , ANYTIME THEY WANT TO, because the public decided that some places need more protection from over use then others. Thats why we have limitations IN PARKS.
Yes I agree that user fees for those who pay taxes is unfair, a sort of double taxation. I fight them all the time. The public decided that they preferred user fees to higher taxes.
.........
This is my last statement to you. You purposely twist peoples points instead of asking them to clarify.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 04:49am PT
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Yoooo the Jox of the Roks....
You are right-on in your description.
In fact those were near exact words I have previously used to describe my experiences and observations of our dear and benevolent cops, lawyers, judges and their process.
Millions of US citizens would describe their experiences the same way, because that is what is happening, much to your and my amusement.
And the lawyers have many more similar processes to defraud unquestioning people of their rights, including more war veterans who were trained to kill people to solve problems, and are becoming interestingly angry with the government and its lawyers.
Amusingly, the idiot cops, lawyers, bureaucrats, judges and their minions have become financially dependent upon ESCALATING that inherently doomed process. They CANNOT correct it. If any of them attempt to correct it, the others attack them the same way the majority of SuperTopo posters attack anyone who suggests that climbers hold RIGHTS under the Constitution/prevailing law.
By design of power-damaged minds, they will not figure it out until their system collapses. On the day of the collapse of every empire, it is replete with John M's who are confused and bewildered by why the common people so suddenly reacted with such hatred for people and lawyers in government.
Therefore have fun by repeatedly asking their power-damaged minds increasingly effective questions, to observe their reactions, to learn more about the design of the human mind.
There is an amusingly easy way to correct the results of their abject stupidity and maliciousness, but if you learn it, you will laugh so hard you will just keep on enjoying the show. The disguise of the knowledge is brilliant beyond description, because of its simplicity.
The disguise is the power-damaged mind's designed aversion to simply asking and answering plain logical questions, the original failure of which facilitated the original damage (real, quantifiable damage). Notice that the lawyers CANNOT answer the questions I asked. If they did, their own mind would recognize it had been sustaining lies (contradictions), in a contradiction identification and resolution device, the human mind. "Like, meltdown."
There is more, but that is enough to solve all human-caused problems, if you start asking and answering more questions, for fun.
Or some sort of whooptido around that corner.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 05:19am PT
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Now Silent John, AND WAR VETERANS....
The restrictions protect nothing. Read the actual restrictions, not the rhetorical illusions of yourself and the Park Pigs.
The restrictions are designed to collect revenues, and create budget excuses for a more extensive Police and Lawyer State. Read the actual words of the regulations. Walk out on the land that is restricted.
Fools are easily fooled with rhetorical illusions. The German society was convinced that Gypsies and Jews were criminals. The American society was convinced that the National Park Tourism Service saves the wilderness. The Soviet society was convinced that central planning was productive.
The question was of the right of war veterans and everyone else to walk on open public land. John's answer was... "No they don't have the right to walk on any public land..."
So there you have it you idiot gullible fellow war veterans. According to John M and countless government bureaucrats you fought for a lie. You do not even have the RIGHT to walk on the most unwalked on per acre obscure ice covered US public land in the nation. Your government, your school teachers, your parents and the whole gaggle lied to you about what you were fighting for. You fought to destroy even your RIGHT to simply WALK on open public land. You re-established the rule of the British kings in America, whose sheriffs demanded that the peasants pay tribute to walk on the Crown Lands. You figureatively pissed on the soldiers who died horrible deaths in the Revolutionary War and every subsequent war. You are SUBJECTS, not citizens, of the federal land managing kings. You fought for the raw power of government thugs, above the US Constitution they hold in contempt. You are accorded only privileges, not RIGHTS, at whim of weasily little war dodging cowards with bureaucrat, lawyer and judge jobs. You were made a laughable FOOL of (albeit like every soldier of every self-serving government).
And the federal government agencies are insatiably writing more rights-denying regulations creating a more repressive Police State to collect more taxes to hire more malicious Police to deny more rights.
So what are you going to actively tell other military age people? Well? Stop supporting the lie, or be the enemy of those who fought for American RIGHTS.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 21, 2008 - 05:23am PT
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RokJox....
I will send a few pins, no charge, when I get back from dipnetting for food.
We got no patches or posters. Make as many as you wish.
And keep on having entirely too much fun.
Doug
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:01am PT
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Hey Doug, instead of insulting me, you could have asked for a clarification. I EDITED my post above.
War veterans have no more rights then any other citizen. That is all I was saying. You have the right to use public lands in a manner consistent with public policy. You do not have the right to do anything you want on public land, anytime you want to. Nor do you have the right to go anywhere on public land that you want to anytime you want to, if public policy provides some limitation.
You have already agreed that security needs are allowed. I contend that the possibility of overuse is a security issue. The security of the land and the security of peoples wilderness experience.
.......
By the way, kiss off with the snide superior tone. Its old.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:05am PT
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buchanan
how DARE you disrespect veterans like that.
motherf*cker
go crawl back into whatever rotten log you came out of
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:43am PT
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Doug (and rokjox),
As was stated by another, you seem quite confused by the notion of laws and their associated regulations being implemented, administered, and enforced by humanoids rather than androids. Human systems are inherently less than perfect and operate with varying degrees of success. What you seem to expect is perfection, or at least enough perfection to align with your requirements.
Laws of men are always expressed both in abstract and concrete modalities - you appear to appreciate the former and have difficulty reconciling and living with the latter. Bummer, as such are the laws of men. You can attempt to assert abstract defenses in concrete courtrooms, but as rokjox says, that's typically reserved for more expensive courtrooms and you really have to know your way around them, both legally and politically.
For all your obfusticating 'talk', the bulk of it all seems to come down on the side of your being confused more about the politics of law than of the law itself. Laws are not administered in a perfect vacuum, but rather on a very messy human terrain. I don't blame you for not caring much for such a scene; but this system of diminutive cogs and greasy wheels grinding away produces the daily legal fodder which this nation runs on day in, day out.
The odds of you getting the park service to eliminate user fees you don't like by impuning the character of its employees: non-existent. 'Non-existent' - that's a clear and abiding reality of 'never-going-to-happen' - yet you persist in such a completely ineffective approach to dealing with these folks and issues - now there's a real example of enlightenment, knowledge, and logic. Personally, I think your arguments sound about as rational and effective as the ones some folks use to claim the government has no right to impose taxes on its citizens.
And hey, dude, those are my fish too - try not to catch any more than you really need.
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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Rokjox said
I dunno.
Do to the doublethink training everybody gets, you cannot understand DB. Most of what he says is true, and I will explain 1 thing. I cant do it fast and I am spending time I need to sleep, why I care about you I dont know. I have trouble seeing tonight, so I will make typos, sorry.
1. Laws can be made by all sorts of people, who have no training and no real right too, because of the regulations passing as laws. ANY HTING CAN BE MADE A LAW!
Lets use a theoretical example then I will give a real example.
In order to prevent crime, somebody makes it a law that you must keep your hands in your pockets whenever you are in public.
This is a valid law, and it will be used to arrest and punish MANY people. Most when cited, plead guilty and are punished. Those people bear the full brunt of the law. This is what DB calls an inferior law. It is succinct and to the point.
But the superior law, based on reasoning, say a law must be reasonably related to the criminal behaviour its designed to prevent or punish. That a law must not be overly broad or restrictive to the common man. This is what is common law.
It is clear that all manner of crimes just cannot occur if you keep your hands in your pockets. Hard to kill someone, hard to shoplift, hard to drive over the speed limit.
But all it takes is ONE guy who refuses to plead guilty, who points out that this law also prevents many legal activities, and is overly broad and destructive to existing rights to examine merchandise, to welcome people and to drive at all. All legal activities. Then Ideally the court would strike down the law.
Now lower courts are generally NOT ALLOWED to consider constitutional or common law arguments, and dont like to as a result, though they actually MAY if the judge wants too. So you will have problems and likely will be found guilty of the original crime based on the overly broad law. The higher you can press the appeal process, the more power the judge has to overturn laws such as this, so many courts have been told they may ONLY review arguments and processes that were raised in the lower court, thus greatly limiting you access to justice. But if you Attorney is smart and makes NO mistakes, you eventually will get the stupid law struck down. Maybe.
But courts dont like to be surprised, so you attorney must first tell every argument and witness he is going to bring up, so the prosecution is never made to look unprepared or stupid. This means that the prosecutor gets a heads up on all such defenses, and the judge too, and they get to argue if you should be allowed to use such arguments, before you ever get to court.
The final defense against these sorts of arguments, is if the preliminary written arguments look valid and good and might overturn the law, or bring up issues that may make a cop or somebody important look bad, they will either pressure you MIGHTLY to plead to a "lesser" offense, OR DISMISS THE CASE AGAINST THE DEFENDANT! Thereby preventing the argument from being made! Once the case is dismissed you cannot argue the case at all, and yet THE ORIGINAL unlawful LAW STILL STANDS TO BE USED ON THE NEXT GUY!
Here is how it works in real life. FIRST EXAMPLE.
I get arrested, beaten and locked up for 8 hours in isolation for carrying a pocket knife with a sub 3" blade. Federal law says any knife less than 3" is not a weapon under the law, and I used to go into courthouses with it. The guards had a little block of wood with a slot cut in it, and if you present your knife to them, they place the blade in the slot, and if the tip cannot be felt, the knife is legal.
But BOISE has a concealed weapons statute that doesn't make mention of length. A CITY statute. IT list at least a dozen names for different kinds of knives, AND screwdrivers, AND almost anything else you can think of, whether or not it can even be carried in a pocket or anything. Bats, clubs, all kinds of things. It is used all the time and has been for years. I wish I knew how to look it up and post it, its a real piece of work.
I argue to two dozen lawyers that I want to fight it on grounds that its unconstitutional, overly broad and excessively restrictive. EVERY ATTORNEY REFUSES TO DO IT. I finally find an ex-cop turned libertarian sorta lawyer who agrees. He writes up a 20 page argument and submits it to the prosecutor who show it to the judge, who agrees that it might be valid, because they KNOW the law IS over restrictive and yet, they think the law as written IS USEFUL, meaning that MANY people just take the guilty plea as the law clearly says even the smallest Swiss army knife is a weapon, and if its in your pocket its concealed. Even a fingernail clipper is unlawful in your pocket because its got that TINY point and edge on the fingernail file.
So first they offer to let me plead to something totally unrelated and extend the date of the trail over and over. Every time I and my attorney have to show up, just to be told the trail is postponed. Yet if either one of us miss ONE appearance, a summary judgement would quickly be made against me. So they RUN UP THE BILL, hoping I will make a mistake or miss an appearance or anything, so they can avoid an actual HEARING.
THEN JUST AS THE STATUTE of LIMITATIONS is about to run out, at the LAST POSSIBLE moment, and without notice, either the prosecutor doesn't show up and the case is dismissed from "lack of prosecution, or the CASE IS DISMISSED AT THE REQUEST OF THE PROCECUTION AND NO REASON IS GIVEN.
In this way they preserve the law and prevent ME FROM GETTING IT OVERTURNED, so they CAN KEEP USING IT.
Thus is an inferior law supported over a SUPERIOR law that would overturn it!
See how it works? Doug B. IS CORRECT, Just the supertopo peanut gallery is not forced into facing the TRUTH of his allegations. THIS is why its so hard to put his THESIS into 10 words, the courts have MANIPULATED THE PROCESS to keep PEOPLE in the DARK and MOST lawyers WILL NOT ATTEMPT TO FIGHT IT!...........
......................
.....
You all owe DB a great DEBT for spending SO MUCH TIME trying to EDUCATE you. LOOK FOR HOW HIS STATMEMTS can be interpreted as RIGHT, NOT how they can be interpreted as WRONG and you may LEARN what he is saying.
He IS trying HARD.
I'm starting to catch on here. I appreciate what you both are saying, and am surprised more folks do not appear to be. However, I will say that most folks don't have what it takes to stare the system in the face at great personal expense, when they know that they are right, and have the fu*kers back down to just get a draw.
Regards to all
Now go catch those fish Doug, you need to keep your strength up through those cold Alaskan winters.
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2008 - 11:35am PT
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Roxjox, serious thread drift dude, how about another thread, cause HealyJ will give you a running, thoughtful, challenging and massive rebuttal which will soon take a hard left turn I suspect.
New thread?
Please?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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Well boys, now how about that? You and Doug seem to be parading around ideas about the 'wild' resources of this nation that sound a lot like those of my wife's tribe - you know, those funny little bands of Native Americans who's claims real, independent-living [whining, white] men like yourselves (one of my pet peeves) are always so quick to dismiss. But, when you peel back the hood, what you almost invariably find is that those manly red states and social iconclasts - Alaska and Doug in this case - are not living off the land, but on a dole paid for with the largess of federal taxes from those nasty blue states (that would be California). Not to mention those manly ranching, farming, mining, fishing, timber, and energy industries are among the most subsidized of the lot.
Doug's welcome to eat those fish, but make no mistake - they, and the pacific salmon fishery, belong to all of us. And speaking as someone who has fought against, and worked with, the government to the tune of thousands of dollars and jail time I actually have a pretty rough idea of what the f#ck I'm talking about. Doug can piss into the wind over a usage fee for Denali, but 'knowledge' of the history of his effectiveness in that regard - and simple common sense, let alone sound logic - would dictate his approach has all the merits of pounding his head against the nearest tree.
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BABY TOOL
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, California
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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So Baby Tool and your lawyer ilk, the question remains: Under penalty of fraud, do American war veterans and all other citizens hold the RIGHT (as defined by the US Supreme Court in harmony with common law) to walk on federal public land not fenced with chain link fence for identifiable material security reasons?
Yes all people have the right to walk on public land, but the people also have the right to limit access to public land.It has to be limited, and there may be no chain link fence but it is definitely being "fenced" for "security" reasons. Replace the word fenced for managed and the word security for conserved, that makes more sense when referring to national parks. So in a sense these lands are fenced and being secured. (Oh boy let me guess, that’s lawyer rhetoric) I've already explained how the laws come into play governing national parks. I’m done posting here, its like beating my head against a brick wall.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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Is That what makes Richmond so polite?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:52pm PT
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Don't ask why I am wasting time with this...
Here are Doug's questions...
"Do citizens hold a RIGHT to walk on public land ...not fenced for identifiable material security? Does the government hold the authority to demand permission or charge a fee...for the exercise of a RIGHT? ...."
Short answer to 1st question. First, there is no PUBLIC land. If you are talking about federal land, it depends on the government's regulations.
Short answer to 2nd question. Yes. See Constitution § 3, Art. IV. There's no "RIGHT" to trespass on fed. property.
"The United States can prohibit absolutely or fix the terms on which its property may be used. As it can withhold or reserve the land it can do so indefinitely. It is true that the "United States do not and cannot hold property as a monarch may for private or personal purposes." But that does not lead to the conclusion that it is without the rights incident to ownership, for the Constitution declares, § 3, Art. IV, that "Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or the property belonging to the United States." "The full scope of this paragraph has never been definitely settled. Primarily, at least, it is a grant of power to the United States of control over its property." Light v. United States, (1911) 220 U.S. 523, 536-537 (Citations omitted).
It's not PUBLIC property. Its property of the federal government. Try reading the Constitution instead of creating your own laws. The folks elected in Congress get to make the rules and regulations for its use, or grant that authority to others.
I will be the first to agree that there are lots of idiot lawyers and judges out there. But you can't leave idiot crusty old f*#ks from Alaska out of the analysis either, by design of the human mind.
I am laughing robustly. Enjoy the show, Atch
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:55pm PT
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"Is That what makes Richmond so polite?"
hahahahaha... Jaybro, you are too funny.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 21, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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Rox, you may be happy not taking federal funds, but almost all of the more rural states get more money from the federal govet than they pay in taxes. In 2005 Idaho got $1.22 in federal funds for every $1 they paid. And those oh so independent Alaskans got $1.84 from the Feds per dollar they paid.
On the other hand, the Californians you're complaining about only got $0.78 for each dollar they paid. So they are actually subsidizing you guys. Maybe they should have a say. Either that or you need to convince more of your fellow states-rights folk to vote your current congressmen out of office since they seem to be very keen on accepting federal money.
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maestro8
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Jul 21, 2008 - 01:36pm PT
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Hey, Rox, did California steal your lunch money back in the day? Did we push you off the slide? Throw a football at your head? Rape you with a broomstick?
I can't figure out why you've such a hard-on for our state...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:03pm PT
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I'm not sure if CA has average higher salaries or not. Certainly alot more high earners and tax payers.
They, along with much of the East Coast, are paying out much more than they get back. And certainly it's not all going to Dept of Interior. Lots goes to the war, to Medicare/Medicaid, to various business subsidies, all kinds of things.
The point however, is that they have a negative balance, and Idaho has a positive one. Until Idaho gets more on an even level, I'd say it's reasonable for Californians (and New Yorkers) to have some input on how their dollars are getting spent by the Feds.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 21, 2008 - 02:24pm PT
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Better to start with your Idaho homeboys. They are responsible for most of the pork money coming to your state. I don't think too many Califonians had anything to say about where INEL was located. I'd guess that was the doing of some Idaho senator.
Or take Helen Chenoweth. For all her griping about black helicopters, I never heard her offering to take away farm subsidies or tear down federal dams providing cheap water and power.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 21, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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everybody likes to pretend to hate california but then when you travel to other states everyone is like, "omg you're from california?!! do you surf like every day? are u from the OC?"
hahahaha
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 21, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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I like California...really enjoyed my time when I lived there.
What's your excuse Rox?
If you dislike California so much, why do you bother with a California climbers forum?
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 21, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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ha. i laugh robustly.
so goes california, so goes supertopo
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 21, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Because the majority of Chris’s guidebooks are California related as well as the Beta, Free Topo, & Photos sections of this website. There are other areas covered but I would say it’s primarily a place to go if you want info on climbing in California.
So if you’re so concerned about the impact of California on its surrounding states why don’t you get involved locally and try to educate your neighbors on all the problems California has imposed on Idaho.
You are involved locally right…helping your community from within to fight all of these injustices that California causes?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
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The way I look at it, the moment you have to hire a lawyer for anything, you're already on the losing end of something.
I'm happy there are some fighters out there with cash to fight the good fight
Peace
karl
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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When I find myself, day after day, posting long winded rants on the interweb against some perceived and remote injustice, I pause, reflect, and wonder if it is actually something else, perhaps closer to home, that is bothering me.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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Why are you ignoring my question Rox?
Please enlighten me?
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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I thought so...you're all talk and no action.
You really do not need to provide excuses either.
AND you still haven't answered the question.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 21, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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What are you doing locally to fix these problems that California has inflicted on Boise, Idaho?
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 21, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
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Well done navblk4, the system works if you apply yourself.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 21, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
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rockjox = kill meh
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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And it's only going to get worse.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
hopping on a moonshadow
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Jul 22, 2008 - 12:16am PT
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"cue tan Californians laughing in background, dude"
u mean COOLifornians! :)
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2008 - 01:26am PT
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In 1854-55, many came west RoxJox. The Oregon Trail had a turn off. Those who went left to California were seeking adventure and fast easy wealth for themselves. They were looking out for numero Uno! Those who turned right and went to what is now Oregon, Idaho and Wash. were seeking to build families, farms and to settle down for the long haul with care and consideration to others in their families and their communities.
There is still a lingering backwash felt due to these decisions to this day, as you are sharing now.
Much of Calif. is still all about fast wealth and shallow discourse based on stepping on top of your brother to get ahead. But not all. California is one of the most diverse group of citizens in the US. They have more farmers than Idaho and they pull in much more tonnage in crops. They grow more rice, tomatoes, almonds, about everything in per acre and total acre. They got blessed with good soil and enough water to make it work. There are more good people in California than in Idaho because there is just more people. Yet California leads the nation in crazy, new, and insane ideas as well. They got it all babe.
Yet through this haze the fact remains that WE -the citizens of our country - are allowing Lawyers to access blame, and when WE agree with them, we increase the odds that we will have restrictions placed on us. Then WE allow the government to come rescue us from our own bad pre-planning on climbs: then they want a say in how, where and when we climb. WE are allowing this. WE ARE. You, me.
Enough already. Are we not ready to have our freedom back?
How can we regain it? The bureaucrats perpetrate their petty little empires by hiring more and more petty bureaucrats. They need something to do to puff up the resume and get promotions, so they look for new things to manage. Those new things are US my friends: US!
Are we just f*ed in the ass with no lubrication here? Can't we INSIST that our politicians cut their spending on these "do-nothing make-work programs" and give us back our freedom and dignity? To make these make-believe work workers go get real jobs wherein they are busy being really productive and instead of being a drain to our society and costing us money, they put money into the system and in so doing they cannot continue down this path they have chose without our permission to "Manage" us?
There has to be a way, short of a major depression ala 1930's, to turn this cumbersome ship around short of rebelling against the Crown again. Can this way be for not just accepting but insisting on personal responsibility?
*Insist that the 304th stays home and volunteer rescue groups do the heavy lifting.
*Insist that our brothers who are whining in the courts about someone else being responsible not be given a dime, but learn to deal with it. This blame game needs to stop in all but extreme cases.
*Insist to our politicians that the petty bureaucrats either do something for the public good or they get tossed out to become productive in the private sector.
This WE must ALL insist and work towards every day my bros. All of us.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 23, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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Read Cadillac Desert. In discusses in great detail the battles for water in the West. CA is certainly very guilty, but all the Western States have gotten significant numbers of below cost federal benefits in terms of cheap water from dams, cheap timber resources, etc.
The Teton Dam that collapsed in the 70's was a project to give water to Idaho farmers at way below market cost.
As for Phoenix and Tucson, they are even more of a desert climate than SoCal. There is even less justification for water use and population growth there than there is in SoCal. So they get very little sympathy from me.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
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Jul 23, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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"all the Western States have gotten significant numbers of below cost federal benefits in terms of cheap water from dams, cheap timber resources, etc."
i don't mind. kinda like how i don't want all the people in india and china to start using AC and driving around, cuz i want gas to be cheaper for ME. haha
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 23, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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NAVBLK4, hire an attorney. Or have they all declined to take your case?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 23, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
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Nope. Not soliciting. Just trying to figure out what you are talking about. So far, you have mentioned a state criminal action, federal writ, and state civil action. You have mentioned suing police, but then bring up an employment action under Title VII. Maybe start a new thread to discuss your legal issues.
Hey, where did Doug B. go?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 23, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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I thought you were trying to beat law enforcement's claim they were absolutely immune from suit under Civil Code 47? Tough to tell now with all the post/deleting you are doing.
Not trying to discourage you from posting in this thread. I had thought from your prior responses that it was unrelated to this thread. Sorry, having a hard time understanding you. Good luck with your legal issues...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 23, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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Doug said he was going dipnetting on the Chitna. Lucky dog, I was supposed to go dipnetting today, but my support crew bailed.
What's dipnetting? Putting a big net in the water and scooping out salmon.
The copper is a silty cold fast mooving river, so you don't put on a wetsuit and float it as I do the Kenai.
Dipping can either be alot of work for not alot of fish, or alot of work for alot of fish.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 24, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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Back from Chitina. Copper River red salmon in the freezer.
Most good dipnetting positions in the Copper River canyon require hanging from a rope, on steep down-slopping slick shist rock, facing very big fast moving, violently ROILING silt laden glacier water. Holding the net angers certain muscles. Getting the fish back up to the "road" is hard work, usually roped. The old McCarthy copper ore railroad bed "road" on the cliff is posted: "CLOSED... DEATH may occur..." I will upload the story on AlaskaStories.com, when I get to it.
And therefore, Tally ho, the SuperTopo......
(The following is not authorized for people who have not learned how to carefully read words that convey useful knowledge.)
John Moosie and other good friends....
Contrary to your BELIEF, and contrary to your equally unquestioned edit, Americans have the right to go anywhere on THEIR public land that they want to anytime they want, except as identified in the common law (US Supreme Court case for this action) (fenced for material security). Your allusion to some unrelated public policy is the commonly pandered illusion of the unquestioning environmentalists.
If there is not of enough security need for a chain link fence, it does not merit exclusion of the public from THEIR land, by prevailing law. Prevailing law involves reasoning, found in precisely written words, not rhetorical illusions. If you cannot carefully read words, and recognize their dictionary meanings, you are the prey of equally stupid lawyers hastily pandering their legalistic illusions found in the countless inferior (not lawfully applicable) laws.
Because climbers do not effectively learn how they are being bilked of their rights by being intimidated into paying the Park Service for their rights, does not create a public policy that you describe as protecting the "security of peoples wilderness experience".
Humans can be fooled a long time with rhetorical illusions such as yours and those of lawers. If they are under the rule of LAW, then they are wiser to simply find the ACTUAL LAW. There is no prevailing law protecting public land for "wilderness experiences" or from "overuse" by hikers or climbers. You and the Park Service can claim it to fool fools, but you cannot find and produce a copy of the claim in PREVAILING LAW.
Are you under the rule of written law, or whatever rhetorical illusions fools use to fool fools?
If two written laws contradict each other, which already prevails in written law to maintain the rule of written law?
Idiot lawyers want their children to be subject to the rule of other idiot lawyers. Wise people want their children to be under the rule of written law, and be LITERATE, so they are not subject to idiot lawyers/judges.
So called overuse is provided for by trails, roads and sidewalks, not denying people access to THEIR public land, and so John can have his little illusion of some nebulous experience.
You have the right to equal use of the US public land among the whatever million US citizens. You and your government do not hold the authority in the US to decree who among the Americans are so inferior to you and your idiot Park Service thugs that your Park Service thugs can pick and choose which of you are the privileged, wealthy-enough, superior elite who may walk on YOUR public land. Go ahead. Keep trying. Issue another several million Park Service citations to get more money for more Park Pigs. Every day you and the Park Pigs therefore anger each of whom you treat as inferior, you gain 10 enemies. Count the days carefully.
Oh, that was NOT your last comment. Now you know what I learned the same way. Do not say it will be your last word, as it was not. We can equally laugh.
The "snide superior tone" is an illusion of your mind. You cannot describe your "tone". It is different for each person, so read the actual words, not tones. After I repeatedly stated that no person is smarter than or superior to any other person, by design, your claim that I have a contradicting tone, and that you and your Park Pigs can lawfully decree who may and may not walk on the people's public land, describes your perception of your superior power over we mere common people. Idiots do such things, as I did in Vietnam. We decided who of they may walk where on THEIR land. Idiot feds, military and Park Service.
"SECURITY OF WILDERNESS EXPERIENCES" Is that not a classic to entice you into questioning your words before you write things like John Moosie wrote? Reminds me of some of the many really dumb things I wrote.
My good friend, Standing Strong with unquestioned words.....
Because I fought in Vietnam (infantry) to protect your right to say as you please, indeed I do DARE to openly state the truth that you perceive to disrespect veterans. We post-WWII war veterans were fools, read that again, fools to have fought in or otherwise supported those 10+ US Presidential Ego Gratification Wars, like all veterans of wars started by their country's self-serving leaders. The proof is in the results.
How many hundreds of thousands of Korean, Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian, Panamanian, Iraqi, Afghan, Somalian, Bosnian and other civilians did we knowingly slaughter FOR WHAT IN ACTUAL VERIFICATION ABOVE LIES?
Figure it out, or end up saying contradicted (stupid) things adulating military and Park Service thugs, to thus entice unquestioning young people into fighting more Presidential Ego Gratification Wars and supporting more idiot illusions about more laws, taxes, cops and prisons providing for the "security of wilderness experiences"".
Healyje.....
When you claim that laws and courts are imperfect because they are administered by humans, as a functioning justification for laws and processes that defend your power, and that of your ilk the Park Pigs, at the cost of people's rights, you describe what the common law solved. That is why it is the most brilliant social invention of humans. The fact that the American DemocanRepublicrat Regime used its public schools to dumb-down Americans so they could not understand written words of reasoning, such as these and those found in the common law, much to the great wealth of lawyers, is a separate concept that identifies the ultimate failure of your tactic.
That laughably doomed tactic of trying to keep people ignorant to retain power over them, and rob them of incessantly increasing taxes/fees is high quality entertainment for those who learned how to read words slow enough to think about their meanings to derive their knowledge.
The people will eventually learn the common law. You cannot fool all the people all the time. You do not want to be a US lawyer or judge, or their offspring, when that inherently happens.
To successfully fool the other guy, you must first successfully fool your own mind first, as you obviously did.
How long shall the people pay for increasingly damaging imperfections, instead of methodically resolving the imperfections?
The proof that you have fooled your own mind into stupidity at which other people laugh, is your inability to answer every question of your own words. Notice that lawyers, Park Pigs and their government ilk flee questions of their words and actions.
Healyje, would you not be wiser to help educated your fellow humans, rather than claim that the system is imperfect and too complex for them, so they must pay money to lawyers to keep making it more imperfect and more complex?
Well?
The trees in the public forests are also yours too. Do you and environmentalists live in wood houses, or use wood from trees that you did not cut yourself? What does the question teach your mind about allocation of public resources? Who is identifiably and accountably authorized to convey to me the product of climbing Denali because I cannot afford the Park Service tax for the RIGHT to climb what I can otherwise climb?
What is public use of public resources? What is their non-use? What is their describable waste or damage? It is lawful to use public resources. It is not lawful to waste or damage them without accountable benefit. LIMITED real resources are allocated by current processes in prevailing law. It is not lawful to deny public use of public resources. It is not lawful to limit their use to an exclusive group when no reasoning in prevailing law for the limit can be identified. Prevailing law is based on REASONING that answers all related questions, without using power of office to not answer them.
The reason the common law is separate from religious law, and that wilderness experiences are not protected by law, is because YOUR god and illusion of experiences cannot be identified or ascribed to all people, to write public governance reasoning related to them. Plain logic that was used by the common law to void the lawful application of inferior laws that repugnant lawyers/judges still use to fool fools out of their money and rights.
As to my Chitina dipnetting related to this issue, amusingly, like the National Park Pigs, the Alaska government swine are enraged that mere common Alaskans can still get food on their own, without paying more taxes to the insatiable government. Every year the Alaska DemocanRepublicrat Regime tries to more disadvantage Chitina dipnetting, so government-permitted commercial seine netting boats can catch ALL the available salmon, and therefore pay more taxes to the government swine, then sell the fish to the Alaskans to make them pay the taxes for food they could get on their own. If you support the DemocanRepublicrat Regime and its thugs, you are that repugnant to humans. You would starve them to get more taxes out of them.
Therefore do not wonder why more people INHERENTLY hate their government more, as they LEARN MORE about their categorically corrupted DemocanRepublicrat government.
HEALYJE... THINK... Your words... "ranching, farming, mining, fishing, timber, and energy industries are among the most subsidized of the lot." You still obviously have ZERO CLUE as to what gives value to your paper money, what puts food on your table, the wood for your table, the metal for your fork, and the heat to cook the food. Most of the paper dollar cost of those things and climbing activities are taxes going to government to hire legions of useless bureaucrats to fool unquestioning fools into perceiving that government is providing those things and paying for them ("subsidizing them"). Shake your head.
Shake your head again.
Oh, and climbers are always welcome at the Alaskan Alpine Club HQ where I help work on the facilities. If you bring good wine, and I have a Chitina Red in the freezer, we will start the party. There are not always salmon in the freezer. But California keeps making very good wine. Lamborn Family Zin is among my favorites, if I could afford it. Magito Zin is intriguing. Visiting junior Park rangers might bring less expensive wine, but repugnantly over-paid Park Sups might consider some better wine, or end up with the tail of the fish.
LEB.....
I laugh robustly when I routinely mention and advocate the rule of written law, the prevailing or common law that covers every human action ever performed, knowing that people like LEB will respond, on cue, with variously worded accusations that I advocate no law.
The vast majority of Americans have been so dumbed-down by their public school-induced process of not asking questions of glaring contradictions, that they can read the above words, and would still write things like LEB writes.
Laugh yourself to tears. I was that dumb until I started writing real questions of the glaring lies pandered by the equally stupid government chaps and their lawyers who could read this sentence and still never recognize the concept of asking questions of their glaring contradictions.
LEB.... THINK..... If the 200 dollar tax to climb the most under-climbed major mountain (Denali) in the world (people per acre) is logical, and your laughable illusions have any related credibility, why is not the tax on El Capitan 2,000 dollars per climber?
Why?
Well?
Start asking questions to avoid making a fool of yourself.
Might there be other glaring Park Service contradictions?
You and your ilk are supporting the same idiot illusions Cheney and his side Kick Bush used to start their wars. Unquestioned Lies.
Baby Tool......and those fooled by his amusing illusions......
Inferior laws allow equity court judges to change the words of the laws to therefore apply different laws.
You cannot be under the rule of written law if a person with a government job can merely change the written words to different words. That authority describes the rule of personalities.
(All victims of lawyers: Learn equity and common law courts.)
Lawyers cannot exist as lawyers without fooling unquestioning fools into perceiving that lawyers and judges can lawfully change the words of written law at their whim.
Use your own carefully questioned, accurate words, not the words lawyers and judges substitute for your words. That sentence enrages lawyers and judges who claim "You cannot do that". Yes, you can demand and achieve the use your own words, and you would be most amused by their effect if you learn the common law.
Prevailing law allows no change of the written words, or any change of their dictionary meanings. If the prevailing law requires the government to build a chain link fence to limit access to public land (it does), for a verifiable (substantive) reason (it does), then the government must build the fence, and verify the reason as real, not rhetorically illusionary, or the government holds no authority to limit the access.
Many fools can be fooled a long time, but why be among the fools?
Atch the lawyer...... and those fooled by lawyers.....
Fools are fooled by impressively cited inferior laws, AND BY WORDS THAT LOOK SIMILAR TO THE ISSUE AT QUESTION.
If you believe a lawyer, rather than question him, you are a fool. They will only cite inferior laws or incompletely identified prevailing laws, to fool fools. Fooling you (lying) with incomplete information is imperative for lawyers to exist.
Public land is government managed land (fed, State, local) HELD IN TRUST, not title, for the people, not for the government.
Atch the lawyer shell-gamed the question as usual. The issue was not that of "trespassing" on federal land. The issue was the RIGHT to walk on unfenced public land. "Trespassing" is not lawful, but is attached to land for which the owner holds authority to decide who may or may not (permission) walk on HIS/HER/ITS land. Public land and trespassing are combined only with the separate law that the public land be properly fenced for common law reasons.
Permission is attached to privileges, not rights, as recognized by the US Supreme Court and any literate person. Rights are those actions for which the government holds no authority to require permission or charge a fee/tax, by common law.
If you believe the exact words of lawyers, Park Pigs and their minions, as do those fools, no humans can hold any rights in the US. Might you more wisely question their exact words, or erase human rights from your vocabulary?
Notice what lawyers foist onto even their own children. Is there anything more repugnant to humans, than lawyers?
Pity Atch who actually believes his illusions, like all lawyers. They must keep verbally tap dancing with inferior laws, and flee every effective question based on the common law. Wiser lawyers privately admit that universal truth of American money-worshiping lawyers.
To successfully protect one's own rights from government swine, one must protect the rights of Californian climbers and all humans. Notice that the Alaskans do not demand or support any Park Service fee or tax for climbing El Cap, but the Californicators such as LEB support the Park Service to support the tax on climbing Denali. The tax is immaterial. Knowledgeable Alaskans do not pay it. We laugh at the idiot Park Pigs. At issue is YOUR thinking ability.
The contradiction between Alaskans not supporting climbing taxes in California, and Californians supporting climbing taxes in Alaska, can be used to identify those who learn how to resolve that contradiction, to advance their knowledge, and in contrast identifies the LEB sorts who attempt to sustain the contradiction with any and every rhetorical illusion to stay ignorant of how to solve problems.
Steve P my good friend.......
The government cannot give anything without taking vastly more to pay useless government dolts high salaries and fund their Presidential Ego Gratification Wars, then give BACK tokens. The US identifies its citizens who live below the poverty level, then its IRS taxes them another about $1,000 deeper into poverty to pay the generally millionaire congressmen, and legions of useless government dolts. No State is functionally subsidized. The net flow of money/value of labor is away from the people, to the government, in every state. Read those words again to avoid any self-induced confusion. All citizens of every State are robbed by the Feds, as with all governments, for rhetorical illusions that fool fools who ask no questions.
FOOLS believe that the government exists to help people, rather than take their money, lavishly pay government drones, deny citizen rights, start wars, pay useless climbing rangers, and lie to the people about helping the people. Even most of the poor people who get government help, paid more in the countless layers of obscured government taxation.
Only government is demanding that people living below the poverty level must pay more taxes to fund elitist Park Service climbing rangers like useless Eric serving illusions claimed to be needed by climbers.
The solution is not in suggesting that "the people" "should do" this or that. Those who learned the solution are laughing too hard to do anything for you. Those who have not learned what to do, therefore yet cannot. The solution is for YOU to learn the solution. It is a knowledge puzzle. You must learn reasoning-based knowledge, such as from the above, by asking YOUR questions of the above and everything. Humans are of sustainable knowledge, not of the lawyer and politician ability to fool fools with lies to maintain lies.
Your choice.
Or some sort of rhetorical thrashing-about around the roiling eddies of silt-laden glacier water. Imagine being a salmon looking up at the ocean of poison air.
Stand back everybody, here goes the Post button target practice again, hmmmm, and again.
Doug Buchanan
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 24, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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"Pity Atch who actually believes his illusions, like all lawyers. They must keep verbally tap dancing with inferior laws, and flee every effective question based on the common law. "
Dood, the common law is dead. As I said before, read the Constitution, it gives Congress the right to control federal land. No need to keep banging your gums beating this dead horse.
Congrats on the dipnetting run. I used to live in AK and would take a few kings/sockeye each summer to a local who would smoke them. Wish I could have been there for this years salmon run.
Best, Atch
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 24, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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NOTICE that Atch the lawyer states that the common law is dead.
REMEMBER that a lawyer said that.
Now, where does that leave you other lawyers who know Atch is attempting to sustain an impossible-to-sustain lie as a lawyer not outed by other lawyers?
Lawyers are fun. Their existence is predicated on lying about the common law, to again verify that lawyers are liars.
The US Constitution is a common law document.
The Uniform Commercial Code adopted as statue by every State is based on being complementary to the common law, as expressed in the Code.
Most of the States have recently ascribed common law trusts to statute law instruments because they cannot be abandoned without driving huge financial activity to other States, and cannot be admitted to by lawyers in State governments.
Endless etceteras.
Fun to play with lawyers. A joke is a contradiction recognized by the teller and listener, but not recognized by the subject of the joke. Lawyers are the nation's primary joke.
Feds can lawfully control (manage in trust) federal land, but they cannot lawfully violate the common law (charge a fee for the RIGHT to walk on federal land). Lawyers will lie with many word arrangements, fooling fools, but they will not verifiably identify themselves and state for record as law that the government holds the authority to charge a fee or tax for the exercise of a right, and they will not so state that Americans hold no right to walk on their public land. Figure it out.
Enjoy the comedy of the lawyers predicated on forever fooling everyone, with inherently unsustainable lies, a fool's quest.
DougBuchanan.com
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 24, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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so we disagree. cool.
any pics of the salmon fishing?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 25, 2008 - 05:48am PT
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LEB......
Grade school kids laugh at your void of reasoning.
You are still maintaining a concept that was verifiably never true, a pure rhetorical illusion of your invention, for which you cannot identify any evidence or indication. That identifies you as an amusing idiot, not because I say so, but because the preceding is obviously true for anyone who maintains such an illusion.
"about your pocketbook" "regard as their own" You idiot. Having learned all the knowledge of money, and being a human of my mind, with no use for material things after learning the knowledge of them, since the cranial cavity has room for only knowledge, I have no need for money beyond what I trade for the very few basics I use. I live below the poverty level.
Figure it out. The Alaskan Alpine Club I helped to form and administer suggests that you spend your dues money on climbing gear, because you are a member if you say you are. How many clubs display that little desire for money? Can you figure out the old 2 + 2 question, or is that still a challenge?
Does anyone but the insatiably greedy, power-craving feds and environmentalists care who owns or manages the public land if the public retains their RIGHTS to use the public land? It is the insatiably pocket book addicted feds, with the support of the American Alpine Club leaders and LEB's, who charge climbers money to climb THEIR mountains, not Alaskans or the Alaskan Alpine Club.
So LEB accuses the victim of the perpetrator's deeds.
THAT IS WHY I ENJOY SUPERTOPO.
Where else can you find LEB's and his comic ilk so conveniently?
Why do you think climbers are the number one gullible social group in the US, who can even be charged a $200 tax for the exercise of the right to simply walk on public land? And they are so gullible they still support their primary national club (AmerAC) (and Access Fund) which supports that tax on the imbecile climbers. Is there any competition for that extent of gullibility?
Anyone else would have to buy a ticket for a show like this.
(Everyone else.......Simply write your own words so you can see them to visually recognize your thoughts, then ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS to methodically remove each identified contradiction in your words, then hit the upload button to subject your words to other minds that you entice with your words into trying to find any contradictions in your words, then evaluate THEIR questions of your any contradictions, to resolve those contradictions if they exist. Do that, and shortly you will hold inordinately useful knowledge so vastly beyond the recognition of others that they will be reduced to calling you a nutcase, etceteras, as bare conclusions, for lack of any reasoning to support their anger at knowledge beyond the rudimentary results of their abject intellectual laziness - failure to ask themselves questions of their hasty conclusions. High quality fun that will induce your genuine laughter.)
Among others, there are two primary groupings of humans. There are those (reasoning minds) who enjoy the innovations and resulting knowledge of diverse free minds. And there are those (power-damaged minds) so angered by other people's thinking and resulting intellectual ability that the angry chaps incessantly attempt to stop other people from doing anything beyond the inherently minuscule knowledge held by any one or a small group of control-mentality people.
The latter will accuse the other guy of anything as an excuse to stop him from harmlessly doing what humans do.
Get smart. Place yourself among the former to learn the knowledge created by diverse minds, or you will end up as angry and confused as the LEB's and Bush's who must incessantly invent rhetorical illusions to attack and damage the other guy, and get his money. Power can only exist by creating enemies. Power is worthless to humans. Reasoning can easily resolve all human-caused contradictions. Learn its process.
Doug
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Jul 25, 2008 - 05:58am PT
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Ah, Doug vs LEB, it was inevitible. What is the only possible outcome?
We will all laugh robustly.
Enjoy the show.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 25, 2008 - 06:14am PT
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Atch......
Perpetually ignorant people such as lawyers and politicians hastily conclude their scant thinking with the statement that they disagree.
Curious people who advance their knowledge beyond the nadir of lawyers and politicians keep asking and answering questions to identify the controlling contradiction(s) that created the disagreement, and resolve it, and laugh at idiots who remain in useless disagreement resulting from intellectual laziness.
You cannot understand that extent of knowledge because you trained your mind to NEVER question the controlling contradiction of your institution, just like most old retired military sorts blame everyone else for their inability to kill enough people to force the world to think like their military's government dolts.
In practical situations, can you kill enough people to make your enemy's people respect you for anything but intolerable killers, and not devise ultimately effective (innovative) retaliation?
No military person can accountably answer that question for the same reason lawyers cannot answer the questions of lawyers I have asked on SuperTopo.
An institutionally power-damaged mind CANNOT ask or answer the questions of the controlling contradictions of their institution, or they would not be members of it.
Now therefore my fellow climbers......
What could you do with the above referenced knowledge, in regard to Park Service climbing regulations? What can you do with a human mind if you recognized the precise questions that certain malicious government dolts MUST answer by prevailing law and logic, and CANNOT answer by the design of the damage (alteration of perceptions) institutionally induced power causes in the human mind?
Put in crude terms, how easily could you win a war, perhaps against the "terrorists", if you easily pit their mind against itself, with near instantly self-defeating results?
Now laugh. The process is laughably easy, but a power-damaged mind, such as Bush and his ilk, would have to learn the knowledge. Therefore try to stop laughing sometime and get something done. And pity those who cannot figure it out because they simply trained themselves to not ask or answer questions.
DougBuchanan.com
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 25, 2008 - 06:58am PT
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So in the end, this all basically boils down to your preferring to employ an attempt at frontier intellectualism as your part in maintaining usage fees at Denali so as not to upset the delicate counterpoint it lends to a sage-of-the-tundra visage of defiance and resistance.
By the way, the [url="http://old-www.legis.state.ak.us/cgi-bin/folioisa.dll/aac/query=[group+!275+aac+01!2E647!27!3A]/toc/%7Bt14327%7D" target="new"]Copper River Personal Use Dip Net Salmon Fishery Management Plan (5 AAC 77.591)[/url] appears to be a fairly expensive and onerous affair, not to mention buying a sport fishing license, clipping fish tails, and filling in the dipnetting permit every time you go out. And, hell, along with that sonar that tells you in real-time on the Internet when to head out because the salmon are heading up the river, it altogether seems like just the sort of bureaucratic waste of taxpayer dollars you'd be bitching about and prognosticating on.
--------------------------------------------------------
With the start of a new season at Chitina, dip-netters are reminded that:
• The season bag limit is 15 salmon for a household of one and 30 salmon for a household of two or more. Only one fish may be a king salmon.
• Dip-netters must have a Chitina personal-use fishery permit and a valid sport fishing license in their possession when fishing.
• All steelhead caught must be returned to the water unharmed.
• Harvest must be recorded on the permit immediately.
• The tips of the tail must be clipped immediately upon landing a fish. Immediately is defined as before concealing the salmon from plain view or transporting the salmon from the fishing site.
--------------------------------------------------------
But who knows, maybe you're selective in your bitching or maybe you just figure you're getting your money's worth when fishing.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 25, 2008 - 10:50am PT
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It would seem that Doug B did way too much acid once upon a time.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 25, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Healyje.......
Knowledge does not boil down. It expands your knowledge if you learn it and use it to learn more.
Power-damaged minds want simple conclusions, and use government force to preclude the consideration of any contradictions in the conclusion.
Curious minds seek and use knowledge to learn those conclusions which are derived from the absence of contradictions and thus need no use of government force to socially manifest.
Since the use of force is ultimately doomed, since it creates the incentive for retaliation by equally capable minds, how did you want to use your mind's time?
I would suggest that you be cautious with your answer, because it will define you, but power-damaged minds flee such questions.
As to Chitina dipnetting, the government bureaucracy is almost as illogical as all other bureaucracy but because it deals with a tangible item of specific numbers, unlike "wilderness experiences", it is a bit more limited in its ability to do what more common bureaucracies do.
Dirt..... Clean your eye......
When folks suggest that somebody has consumed too much recreational drugs, because said somebody says things the suggester is too lazy to question to learn what is being said, from the questions, and miss their guess, they reveal much of themselves.
Raised on a small farm. Small rural town high school. Conservative college. US Army officer and helicopter driver. Etceteras.
Clean the dirt from your eye.
Then learn how to synthesize data into knowledge regardless of your drug usage which would also be data you could use.
But because I hold title and exclusive management authority for my body, unlike those who have acquiesced to the drug laws and therefore surrendered ownership of their body to the government, I retain the right to do whatever drugs I want to do at any time.
If you are a climber, and learn the process to synthesize data (ask and answer questions), you can learn the answer to the primary question of this thread, since no lawyer has or will answer it.
Might the intellectual inability of lawyers be due to the fact that law school students / lawyers constitute one of the most drug-using professions, immune to cops who dumbly do whatever lying lawyers tell them to do.
Whoa, Larry of the Larry and Gary show just showed up at the AlaskanAlpineClub HQ, on his grand US-Canada-Alaska motorcyle adventure. Gotta go.
Then maybe get the Chitina Dipnetting story and photos on AlaskaStories.com, if I do not get back to the rain gutter project on the club HQ.
Keep on having entirely too much fun.
Doug
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 25, 2008 - 03:14pm PT
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Doug, when someone rants in the style found usually on a Dr. Bronner's soap bottle, it usually means serious psychedellic drugs were involved at some point. Or maybe too much speed. Or both.
Your style robs your message, dude.
Even if you are right about everything you say, your delivery will turn away more than half your audience.
PS. Dr Bronner's rhetorical style is SOOOO 70's man, like, it's not groovy anymore, dig?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 25, 2008 - 03:24pm PT
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As I said, you clearly prefer the usage fees to lowering yourself to getting involved on any constructive basis which might work towards eventually removing such fees. That's cool. And hey, you're dug in up there at the end of the road with an iconclastic niche which appears to serve you well. It's all cool and makes life interesting for everyone. It's just a little disappointing when it comes with a more-knowledgeable-than-all-you-cockroaches worldview that boils down to [victimal] dogma.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 25, 2008 - 04:27pm PT
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"you can learn the answer to the primary question of this thread, since no lawyer has or will answer it."
Its already been answered, repeatedly. The reason you don't understand the answer is because you keep asking and answering yourself questions. Only a fool would question an idiot, and yet, that seems to be what you have done for the last 70 years. Its no wonder your answers and responses here are so f*#ked up.
I know, rangers, cops, lawyers, judges are so bad. Blah, blah, blah, blah... ask and answer questions, blah, blah, blah.... the access fund, aac, etc are bad, blah, blah, blah....
Dood, pull up your big girl pants, warm yourself some milk, and quit yer whining. Your wasting your life crying about issues you don't understand.
Ask yourself: How did I get so f*#ked up? Is delusional ranting on the internet gonna change anything? Why has everyone I have met in the last 30 years thought I was a moron?
But don't answer em. Just go roll one, and head out into the woods. Turn your over-worked pea-brain off, and just enjoy not thinking about how f*#ked up the world is.
Cheers, Atch
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 25, 2008 - 04:29pm PT
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Atchafalaya, you forgot to tell him to take some reading material.
I recommend a LARGE bottle of Dr Bronner's.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 25, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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My cousin was also an army warrant officer / chopper pilot in Vietnam and had two ships shot out from under him with him being the lone survivor both times. When he got home he lived in an old steam locomotive water tank by a siding track outside of Davis for several years barely communicating or taking care of himself. He's much happier now all these decades later and works as an estate gardener. People deal with the vagaries of life in different ways. Doug has obviously found his own ways to deal even if it is involves retreating as far as one can from the 'world'. That self-imposed isolation can generate and perpetuate an insular worldview is no surprise, nor is the idea someone might capitalize on it for a niche with a bit of notoriety. More power to him in that regard; the victimal cockroach thing gets pretty tiring, however.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 25, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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And the jailhouse lawyers around here are windy bores, whose 'knowledge' of the law doesn't derive from the constitution, statutes, or the common law, let alone a legal education.
Although it's clear they've mostly spent enough time in jails and courts to pick up some of the jargon, and enough time on the internet to reinforce their selective beliefs.
Sooner or later they'll start ranting that income taxes are unconstitutional, and indeed that all things that they claim to be individual rights and freedoms overrule those of any other person or government. Or that "natural law" overrides human law.
Yawn.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 25, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
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Amusing colleagues......
Data-rich rhetorical style in America is indeed "not groovy" anymore. Isolated sound bytes are IN. And the world is laughing at the dumbed-down Americans whose minds can no longer synthesize two or more items of data.
Americans must outsource their thinking tasks to India, China, Japan, South Korea, Bangladesh, Iran and such places where individual thinking is still taught and performed. Is not Bush, the American leader, a superlative verification?
If this were for the readers, I would not waste my time. You must learn on your own, as I do.
Your descriptions of another person all fit the most common pattern of descriptions for the quintessential "other guy", who inherently knows something different. Perpetually ignorant people denigrate those who know something different.
When a wise person encounters such people, said person listens to what they say, and asks questions to learn what they know. Imagine what you would learn if you did the same, if you understood the value of more knowledge.
It is immaterial that I and anyone else are verifiably not what you invent for your entertaining descriptions which I enjoy. What is material is your minds' inventions. How and why does the human mind invent such illusions and NOT ask the related questions to ascertain any reality or contradictions in those inventions?
HealyJe.... Compare your response to a guy who resigned his commission in the boring Army and created the party-central outdoor adventure/skydiver/kayaker/climber HQ in high-adrenalin Fairbanks Alaska, did first ascents in the Alaska Range, first moulin descents, solo sea kayaking, camera man skydiver, parachute onto the North Pole, etceteras. Do not wonder why your invented illusions are not just comical, but offer curious minds questions of how and why minds such as yours invent such illusions, like Bush invented an "axis of evil" and Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, to attack. You might need to read that again, especially the relationship to the last phrase.
HealyJe, outsource your thinking to somebody in India who can provide you some useful knowledge. Worth the cost.
Notice those who say the original question of this thread was answered repeatedly.
CHALLENGE TO ALL... find that USEFUL answers in this thread.
THE ORIGINAL QUESTION by CouchMaster: "However, if we do not contest this new (illegal) law, it becomes like common law and has force?... IS THIS TRUE?
Atchafalaya the lawyer who must still hide his full name and the fact that he is a licensed lawyer, to preclude convenient accountability for his responses, offered the answer, "not only false, but delusional", as his total initial response.
How many thousands of climbers have climbed routes that others described as delusional, to prove the lack of thinking by those others? What real knowledge could have been offered to resolve each related contradiction on the route to more efficiently effect the successful climb?
Atch must hide knowledge of the common law, and rhetorically attack anyone who mentions it, without expressed reasoning to support his attacks, for a reason you can learn. He is a lawyer. Ask lawyers any series of questions about the common law, and notice the bizarre contradictions in their responses.
Ask Bush and his neocon dolts if the Muslims have minds of the identical design as Christians and all other humans, and notice the bizarre contradictions in their responses.
Why was the question delusional? No question is delusional, and certainly not that plain logical question of law process. Why would a person present such an unusual and useless response?
Doug Buchanan conveyed to those seeking knowledge the reason the the common law is not changed by that process, and related useful knowledge.
Now identify the two primary categories of subsequent responses, and identify the proportional numbers of those responses.
You will learn much. Notice who will not do that. Notice how many US companies in competition with the increasingly competitive Chinese are outsourcing American jobs that require thinking ability, to the above mentioned countries.
When an individual common criminal is caught without any possible denial of his contradicted/criminal action, his mind starts thinking beyond his flawed decision to commit the crime, by design of the human mind. No human holds the ability to sustain a contradiction.
When an institutionally power-damaged mind such as a lawyer or cop is likewise caught, such as by his categorical inability to answer a logical question illuminating a controlling contradiction of his institution, he will respond as did most of those in this thread, rhetorically attacking the messenger who brings forward questions, fabricating bizarre accusations of no relevance to the question or messenger, and diverting the subject to unrelated issues.
Consider reading that again.
A verification is the postings to this thread, offering profoundly valuable knowledge.
That knowledge is useful to climbers.
If you and I think the $10 annual AlaskanAlpineClub dues are more wisely spent by you on climbing gear, since you are a member if you say you are, then the $200 you would be fooled into paying the National Park Service insects to climb Denali would be even more wisely spent on climbing gear.
You cannot be lawfully required to pay that tax to walk on public land. The AmerAC, Access Fund and lawyers will not tell you that verifiable fact because the prevailing law protecting you from that demand is among the common laws, superior to all the illusions of inferior laws told you by lawyers, cops, bureaucrats and their minions dependent on keeping you ignorant and paying myriads of inferior law taxes/fees.
To suggest that raises the swarms of the "you can't do that" crowd who cannot comprehend climbing a difficult new route within the realm of knowledge, without a guide book, who desperately change the subject to unrelated income taxes, jailhouse lawyers, natural law, Dr. Bronner, LSD and everything EXCEPT, ask the related questions to learn the related knowledge.
If you find a movie better than that cast with DirtInEye, AtChaFalaya, HealyJe, Mighty Hiker, and the LEB, produced by SuperTopo, directed by Rokjox and Doug Buchanan, let us know.
Oh, if the actual climbers want the Alaskan Alpine Club to do the boring paperwork to easily eliminate the list of absurd Park Service climbing regulations you do not appreciate, let me know, but remember that US climbers have dumped 10 million dollars into the pockets of Access Fund dolts, and more into the AmerAC to produce and entrench those lucrative regulations, and think a bit.
If the climbers appreciate the increasing regulatory morass that is their embarrassing mountaineering legacy to their children, and which knowledgeable Alaskans violate with impunity, enjoy the show.
In regard to the latter, you would be CLUELESS of that for which those American guys in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting, as are they, and be unwisely holding their efforts in contempt.
The illusion of rhetorical propaganda about "supporting our troops in Iraq/Afghanistan" deflates the moment each war veteran gets out of the military and discovers that every government system has turned against him to get more money to support a more extensive government Police State destroying American freedom.
Do not be surprised by the results of a highly damaging complex contradiction sustained to its inherent "breaking point". When you train a military to incessantly kill civilians, and keep excusing their actions, "for American freedom", and they later discover that the freedom was a lie, and their real enemy was their own government and its lawyers/cops, and they are taxed and taxed and taxed for even the previous RIGHT to harmlessly walk on open public land, you define yourself as so hilariously self dumbed-down that you will be surprised by the obvious.
More American war veterans of the Iraq and Afghan wars are committing suicide each month, than killed each month in those wars that have produced endless suicide bombers defending their people's freedom from the American Police State government. What one connection of data will bring home the results of what your government has done to the Iraqis, and to its own people? Sound byte folks cannot recognize or synthesize the two primary items of data in the preceding sentence. Go ahead, impose another Park Service fee or climbing regulation on those young male climbers, to save the wilderness of course, for the Californicators and Park Service thugs.
Oh, the reason "jailhouse lawyers" are described with that term and so intensely denigrated by lawyers and their minions, is because jail prisoners are basically literate people, most of whom damaged nobody, who discover how easy it is to use simply library process to identify the prevailing laws for each human action, that lawyers and judges must never mention to retain their power over ignorant, gullible victims. It is so easy to fool people like Mighty Hiker, with institutional titles, that for thousands of years humans perceived that "kings" somehow held a superior design of human mind. Law schools only teach their victims how to lie to clients, about the law, as this thread identifies, and then offer the title of "lawyer" that fools fools. The humans are the best comedy on the rock.
Now I gotta go find an old steam locomotive water tank by a siding track and move in to comfort HealYje.
DougBuchanan.com
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jul 25, 2008 - 09:02pm PT
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I'm starting to like this Buchanan fella...a bit long winded but you have to admire
his consistency as a negotiator despite the flaws.
Doug you should come on down to Vedauwoo in August.
It's everything you could ask for…free climbing, free camping, & free minds.
We need to keep climbing rebellious.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuTi9UZtPbw"]Fight the Power!
[/url]
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 25, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
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Part 2 comin up ....
I can't wait, this is a good story good suspense, a real thrillah.
Yep, Rocky you write some cool stuff ......
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Thanks Rox, that was a masterpiece.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 26, 2008 - 07:50am PT
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Cool colleagues of the climbing arena.....
The balance is perfect in all things, or humans and the universe could not exist.
As Rokjox so magnificently illuminates, an advantage in learning useful knowledge is the physical experience of chance that otherwise requires much more thinking (asking and answering questions) without the incentive of experience.
Wisely consider the real experiences of others to learn the same knowledge by asking and answering the questions of it.
You must actually ask and answer those questions, writing them, instead of waste your time reading these words of other people.
GoatBoy....
I enjoyed every second of the, Fight the Power, video. That is my body vibration. If you have contact with the producers, for their next production, suggest that they.... 1. stage the footage with 60 percent female images in full synch and motion, and 2. primarily, change the line to "Out-Think the Power".
The producers will be confused at first, and not fully understand the concept, even be uncertain about it, but they have a related advantage, and if they produce a similar production with that line, the cops, lawyers, judges, politicians and the Homeland Security idiot computer geek spies reading these words will be profoundly unsettled, profoundly. They can read these words twice, warn each other, and their minds will still be profoundly unsettled by such a video.
Power is designed to defeat power, with no loss if it looses, since power therefore prevails. But power is brilliantly vulnerable to thinking (questions), BY DESIGN. Even the mention of thinking strikes verifiable fear in power-damaged minds such as lawyers, cops and their government ilk. Their power is 101 percent dependent on maintaining an ignorant society.
Notice that people "fight" power. Notice the result.
Now, consider QUESTIONING power, with increasingly effective questions. Power, such as that manifested by National Park Service mountaineering ranger insects, is a concept within the human mind. Notice what power does to minds. Notice that the institutionally titled chaps such as lawyers and cops (perceiving their power) CANNOT answer certain questions that common people can easily answer.
(Is a right that action for which the government holds no prevailing law authority to demand permission/permit or charge a fee/tax? Therefore what itemized rights do American war veterans and their families hold in the US?)
LEB my belatedly curious very good friend......
There is a fair tax system that has been repeatedly described in writing for thousands of years, including the original US Constitution. But it does not facilitate escalating government corruption and insatiable greed, so it has been long unknown by the dumbed-down Americans. You would not yet understand it because of its simplicity, logic and your fear of answering basic questions.
Read slowly... But granted your US IRS Marxist graduated income tax that punishes productivity, which produced enough excess wealth for the Feds to create insatiable greed for ever-more taxes on everything, there was quickly excessive Federal government wealth "to maintain the campgrounds or the toilets or the (basic) police force etc".
But that insatiable greed, inherent to power, not reasoning, went vastly beyond such basic public services to the general public, imposing taxes on everything, to create the wealth to wage multiple Presidential Ego Gratification Wars and National Park Service insects to arrest climbers whose only crime is do not pay the insects to arrest them if they do not pay the insects. (Notice my respect for farmyard swine by not equating them to Park Service insects.)
Those additional tax paid services which you suggest in your poorly considered superficial questions constitute your indicated desire to get something for nothing, and do nothing for yourself.
(Your choice of) God made Woman and Man. Samuel Colt made them equal. The public cannot afford enough taxes to hire enough cops to provide one for everyone who is too lazy to carry their own gun if they are afraid to walk out of their house. It is plain real life on a hazardous planet among hazardous humans.
There are simply not enough people to provide enough armed cops for everyone who is too lazy to carry their own gun, and still produce the food, cars and computers you want.
You must do some things for yourself. Elderly women can handle a 9mm very well. If 20 percent of American women made it evident that they carried guns, the result could elevate Samuel Colt to the status of at least a Prophet.
Climbers and other outdoor sorts voluntarily clean the trash in climbing and outdoor areas when it gets unpleasant, and then optimally educate their colleagues who are still too immature to have yet learned the littering lesson. The latter becomes progressively more effective, by design of the human mind.
You revealed much of yourself in your hasty questions. You were very wise to ask them. Next time, answer them, then openly ask the questions of your answers.
There will always be Joe Slobs, often with Park Service ranger jobs. Humans are a young species, each with much to learn at different rates. You must do a little more work to go where they are not if you do not like their presence. You meet the nicest people in the mountains, or father up the trail.
All of history and reasoning process proves that your most costly and net most damaging enemy is your own government. Ask the series of questions to verify the conclusion, and therefore reformat your actions, if you wish.
But know with certainty that it is only you who will learn useful knowledge. The other guy will ask no questions and send his money to the Access Fund and AmerAC, in the fool's quest to get more for less, without thinking, and therefore buy what he did not want.
The process to lawfully ignore the Park Service regulations with the full support the Park Service is to, in writing, expressly seek to obey the prevailing law, then ask that the related prevailing law be revealed under penalty of fraud, etceteras in specific detail.
Wait. How did it get to be 4:AM. Outta here.
Doug
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 26, 2008 - 09:19am PT
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Roxy, if you ruin your marriage over of a stupid climbing forum, you'll feel REALLY stupid.
get off the fvcking computer AND pay some attention to HER, dude.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 27, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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Well, I'm out of here, but on the way out...
Knowledge does actually boil down into several admittedly rare essences - common sense and the simple words of a clear voice come to mind right off the top of my head. Anytime it can't be distilled in such a manner, I always figure a person has good reasons why; either that, or something subclinical is afoot. In this case I'm guessing the former, and that's fine - weak, but hey, whatever works for you.
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Hightop
climber
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Jul 27, 2008 - 05:18am PT
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This forum is truly entertaining. I laugh every time you people start to argue. DB, you are a masterful comedian.
Few questions for Rox; why did you not call the police when you were assaulted? Why not try to prevent these thugs from hurting someone else, at some future place and time. I understand your answer already and in paraphrase "cops are bad, would have done nothing, lawyers are the thugs, the system is broken and life generally sucks." In your vigilante effort at protecting yourself and teaching these guys a lesson, did you succeed? Who else was hurt at your refusal to do the right thing and attempt to get these guys arrested? Untold and you'll probably never know. Did you not call the police because you were high?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 27, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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"Dirt...clean your eye"
I laugh robustly!
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Hightop
climber
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Jul 27, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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Fair enough. His story is hilarious and I am glad that he was able to beat the system, when it was stacked against him and he was mostly innocent of any criminal wrongdoing.
I just worry about predators. Self interest does nothing to help the helpless who would be victimized by inaction. I doubt Rox's assailants stopped their criminal lifestyle after their run in with him. Their next intended victim was probably not as capable of defending themselves (good for him by the way). After learning that some people fight back, they probably just moved on to robbing little old ladies. It is just conjecture though.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 27, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
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Yoooo LEB of the crags, colleague of SuperTopo, master of wobbly words......
You might be getting close, but you must therefore think more.
You wrote a laughably wrong statement, but therefore useful... "So, Doug, you are telling me that if Joe Slob camps next to me and harasses me, the solution lies within the firing range of a gun."
Think. If I had told you that, you would have seen the words: "If Joe Slob camps next to me and harasses me, the solution lies within the firing range of a gun."
You did not see those words.
WHY and HOW did your mind invent such an absurd statement, that made a public fool of you among thinking people?
Among ignorant people you may appear to be carrying the great anti-the-other-guy banner, but ignorant people are not useful to you unless you are ASKING USEFUL QUESTIONS of their ignorance.
As long as you keep using words that do not hold their meanings, or boiling down knowledge instead of synthesizing or combining it in your mind, you will remain watching the pot boil, ignorant of what your mind could cause you to learn, and end up making dumb, self-fooling statements as often as politicians, lawyers, Park Service rangers, other cops and George Bush.
Bush's mind invented his illusion about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction by the same process your mind invented your illusion about my statement in regard to guns.
THINK. If Joe camps next to you and harasses you, simply ask him why he is doing that.
WELL, is that not vastly more logical and useful than threatening him with an idiot Park Service cop to irritate him more? If you learn how to ask effective questions, you can form a question with an arrangement of words that will be far more effective than any legion of inherently idiot cops who are trained to threaten and irritate people, with gun-backed citation books, rather than use reasoning.
Your knowledge, if you advance it, will facilitate an arrangement of words, as a QUESTION, that match the type of Joe's harassing action, and can cause him to either laugh or be mildly embarrassed and not bother you. Wisdom is worth the time to learn.
PRACTICE ASKING EFFECTIVE QUESTIONS.
OR, simply move to another camp, and recognize that Joe just needs more time to learn what other people learned sooner. That Eastern philosophy process saves you more total process time than the Western confrontational process, about half the time. Let him think he is the tough guy. That is okay. He will learn, especially if you say nothing but make it apparent that you are leaving because he is obnoxious. You will therefore be helping other people.
Do not Americans (idiots who vote for DemocanRepublicrats) still need more time to learn that starting wars never achieves a sustainable goal, and just causes more problems, in the long run, by design? Like Americans, Joe the harasser just needs more time. Help him as best you can, then let him make other enemies until he learns.
OR, let Joe see your large caliber hand gun, and tell him that you will be doing some plinking around your campsite. The appearance of the gun is more effective than the appearance of a dumb Park ranger whose only effect is his gun that Joe knows he will not use. Joe knows that you may use yours. That is of profound effect. You will not be shooting Joe, just letting him know that his harassment actions have become neutral and possibly detrimental to him.
Cops are useless in comparison to carrying your own gun, for a long list of well known reasons cops hate to hear or read. Because cops are corrupted by their power that they are taught to never question, during your life, cops will cause you much more needless trouble/time/money than they will save you. They are a fool's illusion for fools who are too intellectually lazy to learn knowledge.
If Joe is not just harassing you, beyond your example, and instead he is some crazed ex-cop who obviously intends to kill you, that is the 1 in a million times you will be glad you had the gun (or certain other deadly weapons which must not be mentioned because they are now routinely taken onto airplanes).
A single exclusive police agency, such as the county sheriffs or their equivalent, per geographical area is logical within the concept of police forces. The nearly 60 different armed US federal law enforcement agencies, plus all the State and local gaggles of cops, all ego-based bickering among themselves and their tangle of jurisdictions and laws-on-laws, are a laughably illogical concept only the dumbed-down, tax squandering Americans would produce for their Police State. Of course cops, like lawyers, are enraged at such a suggestion that threatens their pyramid empire.
Armed National Park rangers are the laughbaly dumbest individuals and agency among them, indeed illuminating the intellectual superiority of farmyard swine.
THEREFORE, if you wish, YOU easily learn the knowledge to intellectually interact with the great diversity of other people, including we of the mountaineering aristocracy, and the greatest threat to you, your government with its unquestioning cops who make cave trolls look intelligent, and carry a large caliber hand gun if you wish.
The gun is merely incentive to expand your knowledge of its concept, if you are wise, and little else. It will have a good resale value, so it is a reasonable investment.
Therein your questions might also illuminate the common law that facilitates your ability to lawfully ignore or violate all the inferior laws, about 85 percent of the laws that stupid cops maliciously impose to prove they are (immature) tough guys, to progressively anger Americans who harmed nobody, to feed lawyers lucrative court cases. The universal stupidity of cops, especially National Park rangers, in this nation is proven by their believing, rather than questioning, the laughably obvious lawyer lies designed to benefit lawyers.
Well, there went the time I would have uploaded the recent Chitina dip netting story on AlaskaStories.com. Maybe later, after I misdirect some bizarre concept into a galactic time whirl out back of the AlaskanAlpineClub HQ. We keep a few whirls here just for that reason.
Doug
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 28, 2008 - 01:56am PT
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Hahahaha
Mmmmmnnnn ? Did I just laugh ...? Robustly?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 28, 2008 - 01:59am PT
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I'm starting to see some merit to Doug's notion. At least if I was armed with a loaded LEB.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 28, 2008 - 05:59am PT
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What is this LEO thing? When did that start happening? I know some Leo's. They aint cops. If you can have LEO's, can you have EO's, and O's?
Might they all be DLEO's?
LEB.... "The gun is merely incentive to expand your knowledge of its concept, if you are wise, and little else. It will have a good resale value, so it is a reasonable investment."
Your question was answered before you asked it, with the answer you read but apparently did not recognized because the words held their meanings. Answer your questions before you upload them, because your mind will usually find the answers within what you have already learned, if you ask the questions that cause your mind to look for answers back in the neuron closet.
An old basic lesson, something like this.... To attain a Black Belt you must be able to neutralize any attackers. Then you learn to never need to use your new ability.
If you have not shot guns, and do not own one, then buy, rent or borrow a hand gun, rifle and shotgun. Shoot them a lot. Learn to efficiently take them apart and put them back together. Learn the knowledge of them, to the extent of comfortable familiarity.
Then carry one if you wish, but stop spending time shooting guns, and use that time to move on to other knowledge to synthesize or combine with a diversity of knowledge so that you can use your advancing knowledge, instead of being stuck with only guns or Black Belt skills.
Knowledge will take you farther than guns if you have the knowledge of guns.
Each new subject of knowledge that you learn requires your time learning it. Keep learning different things. You can efficiently do that by asking many questions of everything, and answer every question you ever hear, see or form.
Pity the DLEO's. They were taught to perceive that the zenith of human ability is their gun and badge. They genuinely perceive that they can force people to comply with law-excuse demands of cops (which are just lawyer lies). A description of the corruption of power is the perception that a gun with a cop license to threaten people is all a person would ever want from the utility of a human brain.
But the cops cannot be successfully denigrated among climbers. The cops can turn and point to the laughably gullible climbers who send money to the American Alpine Club and Access Fund to maintain the $200 climbing tax, and many other Park Service fees and restrictions on climbers wanting to exercise the RIGHT to walk on public land. The climbers willingly support their organization leaders who support the cops who harass the climbers with inferior (not lawfully applicable) laws. The American Alpine Club and Access Fund sorts make cops look brilliant, which is why they like each other.
And because you live in a nation under the rule of written law, that is, words on paper, not any person or people, START by learning what the ruler requires of you, and that for which the ruler holds no interest. (How the PREVAILING law functions.)
Well, if you are being ruled, would not the FIRST thing you would logically do in life is learn what the ruler requires of you? What fool would stay ignorant so he can be forever told changing lies about what the speaker for the ruler requires?
Therein you have an advantage. Because the US is one of the common law nations, you can quickly learn the three controlling concepts that form the common law within which no law contradicts any other law, and thus know all the laws.
But if you believe any lawyer, instead of question him to the extent of his controlling contradiction, you would be the guy trying to stuff ammo into a gun, backwards, and never figure it out, like the cops who cannot figure out the questions that prove that the lawyers are lying to the cops to benefit lawyers.
This evening's salmon was baked with a mustard, local honey and fresh Cambodian Kampot white pepper glaze, and served with northern Thai fried rice, a scramble of vegis, a bottle of 7 Deadly Zins, and four bizarre thoughts.
The salmon are usually dead out of the freezer, so no gun is needed. If you showed up with the verification of fine wine knowledge, I would pull out a salmon if the freezer run was still on.
Do not forget to send your old ice axe, ice tool, rock hammer or a tangle of clanky stuff off your rack, to the Alaskan Alpine Club's new museum/display area, with your name and date on it. Or get a cooler older ice axe off eBay and do the same thing. A newly forming museum is an interesting concept. Where else can you get your name and date on an item in a museum, for only the cost of an ice axe, that will indeed be considered as a cool old thing in a hundred years? Well? Alaskan Alpine Club members live around the world, so you can also write your city and state or country on the thing, for fun. And it will be here for you when you come through on the way to the Alaska Range. I think we even have something from a certain Park Ranger who must remain anonymous until he retires. Cool, huh?
Doug
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2008 - 08:49am PT
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I am convinced that LEB skims the first part of each post and makes up, in LEBS mind, the rest of what each of us writes. Responding to someone who does that is silly and a waste of time. If LEB won't actually READ your words, why write MORE words LEB will skim and not actually READ to help LEB out? Why not just ask LEB to read the original words again?
Applejax, same to you. Pick up your garbage and others as well. You need officers to do that for you? There are already laws and yet the garbage still piles up. What does that tell you? You want more police because of it? Huh?
I laugh heartily as I enjoy this show.
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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DMT the uber lunker- what's your ukc id?
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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LEB would be good on UKC
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:42pm PT
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Perhaps we could get LEB to post TRs over on UKC. TRs of tree grafting or pie making or something.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 28, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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The utility of LEB's.....
To learn much of animals you can patiently observe them, requiring your time.
To learn much of LEB's and their government ilk you can patiently read their words, requiring your time.
Notice my words: "If you showed up with the verification of fine wine knowledge..."
Notice LEB's response suggested that he could therefore show up with an opinion.
Notice the difference in words. What would "verification" be? What effort would be required to produce credible verification of any kind?
LEB's, criminals and government dolts are just sloppy, useless non-thinkers who have no clue as to the meanings and utility of words, and who use their thinking time for the fool's quest to get something for nothing, instead of contributing something useful to society.
LEB's, cops and lawyers substitute their words for other words and claim that their words prevail by decree, making fools of themselves. Animals are not that stupid.
Like watching animals to learn about them, simply read the words of stupid people to be amused with the process of stupidity.
We all say stupid things. Thinking people correct their errors upon verification of their existence. Unthinking people attack the messenger.
LEB.... you do not have a fair amount of brains. You have the same amount as everyone else. The functional difference is knowledge, not any amount of brains. Nearly everyone who got into unpleasant situations did not plan to get there. Be cautious with bragging about ignorance working pretty well so far. "Pretty well" and "so far" hold meanings. You are too ignorant to understand ignorance.
AppleJax....... The question: "What are your thoughts on that?", is a poor quality question. You can answer it yourself since thoughts are universal to human brains, and yours are as good as anyone's if you actually think. Answer your questions and question your answers (think) until you reach one of quality.
When garbage left by trash slobs becomes a noticeable problem, there are many innovative, effective remedies that require only a little thinking, vastly beyond the ability of force-based police or people who want something for nothing. But if you can think of nothing else, EFFECTIVELY (requiring thinking) suggest that the local police be eliminated because they are wasting 85 percent of their time and your tax money chasing inferior law violators who damaged nobody, and violated no prevailing law, instead of being out where a real problem can be solved with real police action.
Perspective: After drugs were outlawed, how many Billions of tax dollars and human hours have been squandered by cops functionally only encouraging drug use (the result is the proof) while real criminals and trash slobs have been plying their trade unimpeded by cops off chasing an endless supply of drug users in endless circles?
Drug use, like gun possession and mountain climbing, causes no problems. Any associated problems have their own solution. Some Catholics are thieves. Is the problem thieves or Catholics?
It is laughably easy to figure out how to catch, and to then catch trash slobs where trash accumulates, but the cop in the donut shop will have difficulty.
In Denali National Park the Park Service formally claimed that they needed yet more funding for yet more Park Rangers because climbers were leaving trash at two camps up on Denali. Sounds good to fools. But the gang of Park ranger insects never issued any citations to climber trash slobs at the two camps where rangers hung out and could watch all the few climbers slowly sloggin away from their tent spots on the glacier. The rangers also carried the climber trash back down the mountain (tax paid maid service), then asked for more funding for trash problems. A thinking person can recognize that intended encouragement of a tax wasting, self-serving budget excuse, but not LEB's.
Now keep thinking. A local climber was in his tent at Denali's base camp when a Park Ranger walked past with a climber-appearing person just off the airplane. The ranger was stating, "Your job as our CIA man here is to act like a climber, talk to the people and report the ones you think have not registered."
What do thinking people therefore learn, while LEB remains clueless?
Animals are vastly more logical and useful to humans than tax paid cops and LEB's.
Cops can correct their well earned reputation by standing in public and demanding the firing of most cops because they are useless, but they will instead use LEB type rhetorical illusions to attack the messenger, as usual, to make the problem worse.
LEB...... It is not amazing that you have gotten along so well. It is common. The Roman Empire lasted 800 years. Your ignorance has much company who enjoy your words of encouragement.
Nav-something. Public land in the US is owned by real persons, despite the attempted claims of certain government dolts. Any artificial person intermediaries only represent the real person owners. In private companies of various forms, land and other property can be wholly owned by purely artificial persons, with no real person owner.
Now, off to a secret mission near this winter's ice tower site, if we make an ice tower this winter. First I gotta check the windows to see if there are any registered feds out in the bushes looking for unregistered climbers. (That is why we keep bottles of whiskey in the bushes.)
Doug
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 28, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Well SOMEONE has not been reading carefully, or he would have noticed by now that LEB is a she, not a he.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 28, 2008 - 06:33pm PT
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A mere technicality.
Let him run, he's The Rebukanator.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 28, 2008 - 06:43pm PT
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>>you do not have a fair amount of brains. You have the same amount as everyone else.
Huh....Doug seems to contradict himself.
What could be more fair than all of us having the same amount? Of brains, beer or burritos. It's like my little Communist utopia dreamworld.
Doug, are you saying that some pigs are more equal than others?
please advise...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 29, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Be nice. Where he lives, Doug may not have seen any women lately. Not LEB style women, anyway. It's the north, eh?
Humans have wetware, not hardware or software. Though Doug may still have a different operating system than the rest of us. Either that, or his programmer had some 'creative' ideas.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 29, 2008 - 05:57am PT
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DMalloy of the East Side, and colleagues...
Your magnificent observation illuminated my unmitigated failure to consider the fair meaning of "fair".
I stand corrected, yet again. An equal amount of brains is a fair amount. A fair amount is an equal amount.
It being inherent that LEB, I, you and the other amusing humans have an equally fair amount of brains, we are left with that for which we have used them.
I would not use them for any excuse to sic some inherently malicious National Park Service thug on you, to issue you a $400 citation for failure to register with the sinkin feds to climb a mountain.
In fact, I would use them to figure out the simple knowledge puzzle to LAWFULLY violate all the lies told by lawyers and their unquestioning cave troll cops.
What does LEB suggest in LEB's excuse-making for Park Service cops to make your decisions, and impose them on you?
How have those climbers who support the Access Fund, American Alpine Club, National Park Service or Bush used their fair amount of brains, as proven by the results? Why are only mountain climbers charged a $200 tax to walk on their public land? Why can you not get an ALASKA mountain climbing guide to climb Denali, and only a lie shifting your money to lower-48 American Alpine Club sucking corporations with Park Service concession permits? Of what value are your accurately identified "fair" amount of brains? Have you used them for maliciousness toward other fair amounts, or fairness toward other fair amounts, as proven by the results, not worthless rhetoric?
Well, your answers, my fair friends?
Why do not cops and Park Service ranger insects arrest or issue citations to cops and Park Service ranger slugs who criminally violate the law by imposing inferior laws above superior laws?
WHY?... The line-item reasoning useful for your personal decision-making in regard to all power-based institutions.
If you flee the knowledge that does not flatter your friends, what associated knowledge did you abandon? What knowledge will assist you in yet unknown situations?
Now notice that the humans are currently beset with male dominant societies. Male dominant wars and damaging assaults reign. Would not a logical person stop such human maliciousness?
Now notice that when females achieve any positions of any institutional power, they do exactly as do males wielding power.
The females with power correct nothing of what the males have obviously screwed-up with power. Read that again.
Power ALWAYS serves only itself, and NEVER humans.
So is a male or female LEB making excuses for power of any difference to a climber suggesting the value of human freedom and rights?
Omitting the entire series of flawless proofs, easily identified with simple questions, the first demarcation in the human phenomenon is NOT the slight biological difference (cross hemisphere neuron bundle) between the male and female brains, but the original design of the human mind versus the subsequent institutional power-damaged mind.
There being a complete spectrum diversity among male and female brains that defy the average, would you rather have a male or female institution leader who uses reasoning, or a male or female institution leader who uses power?
Well? Who on this thread will actually answer a substantive question, with their name, to reveal their reasoning ability?
Why do the females who rightfully describe the nearly universal, abject male failure at social governance, offer nothing more than the same when they acquire any government power?
Until the LEB's express reasoning above institutional power, their grammatical gender reference is as meaningless as dolts arguing over a day in prison or the death penalty for a person who created a contradiction. The contradiction of an attack on a person having created a contradiction, whether advanced by the power-damaged male mind, or the power-damaged female mind, is still the creation of a contradiction, illogical to the human mind's reasoning process, the controlling contradiction of humans.
The value of the salmon can be derived only from the value traded, by design. The finest salmon acquired by a ruse will taste like last year's freezer-burned salmon. Bring fine wine, or magnificent spices, because the value of your rhetoric will be matched during the meal.
In that regard, No Notice Monday Night tonight was another Jeana and Richard cook-off. Succulently luscious gourmet masterpieces prepared for hours. One after another, on the deck looking out to the Alaska Range. Damn good thing I pulled out the usually-not-affordable bottle of superlative wine, or the food to which I contributed nothing may have tasted like last year's salmon.
The visitor from California lives up in the mountains, not down there near the Ymite Park Service Gulag, so his stories were better than my wine. If you show up with those stories, I have the wine and salmon.
But regardless, hit the off button on the screen and get out of the house. If you get this far north, do not stop here. But there is space in the basement to crash and dry your equipment between climbs.
Tomorrow the various website updates, fer sure this time, if I get around to it.
And keep on having vastly more fun than authorized.
Doug
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evenkeel
climber
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Jul 29, 2008 - 09:49am PT
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All this
Slomon Tulk
Hungry Me Make
Tpke a fish our
of the cheast freozer
Toduy, I will doe
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 30, 2008 - 03:07am PT
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Yoooo Cool LEB of the mountains, climber of stairs and lofty concepts.......
Nobody on SuperTopo is a climber.
Climbers are climbing. People on computers are not climbing.
A person reading or writing on SuperTopo may have been a climber, and may intend to be a climber, but he is not climbing, and therefore is not a climber.
If you want to most efficiently learn how to climb, climb.
If one wants to learn how to resolve complex contradictions (solve problems), such as eliminate the hassles that government chaps cause climbers and everyone else, then one must learn how to efficiently synthesize contradicting data.
It is a 17 part knowledge puzzle, so rarely learned that any two people who learn it will most likely not learn of each other. One part is that of using words that hold their meanings. It is a skill that requires concerted practice, like climbing to climb better.
It requires enough practice that a climber can claim to be a climber while not climbing, but only if his mind is FULLY aware that he is using the wrong word each time he uses it. He will more often avoid using the wrong word, and be quick to correct it upon another person illuminating the error, for all words.
Your words train your mind.
Concurrently, there are no sins, right, wrong or honest lawyers, that is in regard to general references to right and wrong.
There are only logical and not logical for the available data.
Therein karma is the process of logic or the balance in all things.
Humans are still mired so deep in the intellectual dark ages that their claims to have advanced beyond the cave-man days are laughable exaggerations. Americans claim to be more advanced than those primitive sorts who cut off people's heads, then Americans drop cluster bombs on villages.
At that Neanderthal level, idiot US National Park Service rangers who arrest climbers (issue citations) who do not sufficiently kowtow to the idiot illusions of the rangers, and the Access Fund dolts who flatter and grovel before government titles granted for stupidity, are merely effecting contradictions that the human mind was designed to instead immediately resolve. Primitive lot.
A climber plays in an arena of pure logic. The mountains effect no illogical actions, a superlative arena for learning flawless logic. Only the climber's actions can effect illogicality, sometimes to the extent of death. But the vast majority of American climbers learn no logic from what they do, for the same reason the vast majority of non-climbers learn no logic from what they do, or Park Service mountaineering rangers would not exist, and George could not start wars.
So to have lived in society during these times, taught by people who incessantly say that people must do as titled government idiots say, instead of do what is logical, is to have most likely effected countless illogical contradictions for which the retribution of learning how to resolve contradictions is due if one is wise.
Your choice. Pity the Neanderthals who never learn that their choice of being a National Park Service dolt, Access Fund supporter, cop, military minion, lawyer, judge or their contradiction-creating ilk was never logical. Like a dinosaur unable to imagine any more thinking being.
Keep on contributing to the comedy.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 30, 2008 - 04:39am PT
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LEB claims too much.
Notice that Americans increasingly described the offering of knowledge as rants, and avoided said knowledge to become obviously dumbed-down.
How else could inherently equal human minds perceive that they must do whatever an idiot who sank to a titled government job decrees?
The knowledge you most seek will be disguised with what others denigrate, or you would have already learned it.
DougBuchanan.com
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 30, 2008 - 04:58am PT
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Personally, I think the Justice Dept. did America a real disservice during it's vetting of prospective hires by somehow over looking Doug Buchanan instead of Nelson Cohen as United States Attorney for the District of Alaska. Given they used a patriot act loophole to appoint Cohen to avoid the whole issue of a Senate comfirmation, they could have just as easily just picked Doug. By and large his perspective and approach is indistinguishable and at least as effective as the trainwreck that passes for the current Justice Dept.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 30, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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NO Doug, you are a ranter, pure and simple.
You'd fit right in on a street corner with a megaphone and a sandwich board.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 31, 2008 - 06:20am PT
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My amusing colleague climbers of things (and insiders).....
Read the actual case findings (reasoning) of US Supreme Court justices, creating high court case laws (often prevailing law). Notice that the common people will be dutifully impressed, whether they agree or not.
Then read common examples of written reasoning regarding any particular subject, by a person holding or claiming no titles.
Notice the fundamentally identical nature of the written reasonings, between the two groups of people.
Then notice the process by which certain people display their ignorance and inability to understand reasoning by describing the former as reasoning and the latter as RANTS.
They could not identify written reasoning if you handed them a dictionary. They only recognize the institution titles or lack of titles, and make all their decisions on that item of data, which is why stupid people obey titled stupid National Park Service Rangers, and are so easily bilked of their money by the titled Access Fund and National Rifle Association leaders.
There is proof. How many times must I state that these words are for my benefit, not the reader's, while LEB still suggests that I dumb myself down so that dumb people can understand and "address" my "points" (which are not points)?
Between dumbing yourself down, and smartening yourself up, what is your choice, and how can you achieve your choice?
Notice the common Americans who demand that everyone dumb themselves down so they can be understood. Do you get it yet?
The American government's public school teachers dumbed themselves down (under threat of being fired by dumber superintendents) to be understood by the most intellectually lazy students, to therefore advance nobody's knowledge, so the results of the dirty eye and his many colleagues cannot distinguish a rant from reasoning even if you give them the distinguishing reasoning.
YOU MUST LEARN ON YOUR OWN. Nobody can successfully give you knowledge. Your mind only learns from the questions it forms. Form them. Answer them.
What I am doing on SuperTopo has nothing to do with any benefit to you, except to the extent that you ask and answer questions in regard to what I and anyone else writes, including YOURSELF (myself to me).
Learn the ACTUAL process (in detail) of how government and organization titles are created and given to fools, then stop making a fool of yourself supporting the self-titled Access Fund and American Alpine Club leaders unless you have made yourself so dumb that you genuinely believe that those damn climbers (you) are so dumb they need an even dumber, titled government parent to make their decisions. If you are that dumb, be thankful that you have George Bush and his dutiful National Park Service rangers to make your decisions.
Get smarter. Do not ask others to get dumber. You will have vastly more fun.
Then send your old ice axe or wall hammer to the Alaskan Alpine Club museum, with your name and date on it, even if you must buy one on eBay.
The total speaking and writing time of American Alpine Club leaders flattering titled organization and government leaders, over expressing respect for the rights of common climbers is 500 to 1. The Alaskan Alpine Club's related ratio is 0 to 500.
Where would a genuine climber of today, want their ice axe with their name in 100 years when climbers will have belatedly figured out the American Alpine Club's ruse that fooled so many fools for the ego gratification of the AmerAC and government leaders, while the obscure little Alaskan Alpine Club up there in the cold corner was saying what actual climbers say?
At the moment of an imperative decision in the mountains, who learns to make their own decisions, and who still believes they need a government moron to make their decisions?
Spread the word to real climbers, including those who understand the concept of being one's exclusive leader and are wise enough to not go where they could fall.
DougBuchanan.com
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2018 - 08:51pm PT
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Thanks for everything Doug, Bush 41 just passed, give him a nudge will ya? Everyone is now talking about what a good fella he was. Yet how many died? Hard to laugh....robustly or otherwise.given all that's gone down. Best to you, thanks for the words!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nice bump.
I laugh robustly!
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