If Jello can do it?

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Prod

Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 24, 2008 - 07:17pm PT
We got hooked after Ice Climbing in Canada 2 weeks ago. So we decided that to get somewhat proficient in 1 season with the nearest ice being 2.5 hours away we’d need to improvise…….





While I was away in Grand Cayman my boss and another pal did the above. They turned the water on yesterday afternoon. What is here is less that 24 hours of single digits. I think it is a pretty good start.

If anyone has any advice on building more ice please do tell. The basic rig is a header tied into the trees with a working platform about 50’ up. Dangling a 12’ wide 45’ long piece of fence, with a 12’ x 1/2” pipe drilled with 1/8” holes hooked to a hose for our drip system. Today we supplemented with a power sprayer to build some body with a fine mist. That seemed to work pretty well.

Cheers and looking for input.

Prod.
jsb

Trad climber
Bay area
Jan 24, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
uhhhh... you know that trees fall over in ice storms, right?
jsb

Trad climber
Bay area
Jan 24, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
Actually... just an order of magnitude calculation here for ya.

Let's say you want some ice that's 5 inches thick, and your sheet is about 15ft x 50ft. The total weight of the ice on your rig is gonna be about 20,000 lbs.
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2008 - 07:32pm PT
Pretty cool, hope it works for you.

Good luck ....
Prod

Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
Hi JSB,

Now tell me the vertical compression strength of a 2x4. Added to the fact that we are counting on, and building toward, a heafty load bearing base, along with guy wires and triangulation bracing to other trees. Above all of that I really hope you're wrong and it does not fall down.

Prod.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Jan 24, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
Have you seen how they build that self supporting ice tower thing in Alaska each year? They pay a lot of attention to the base, making it strong and broad.

Yours doesn't appear to have a base.

Cheers
DMT
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Jan 24, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
Well, has there been a first ascent yet?
Prod

Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
Thanks DMT,

We are working on that and have found that by blowing light snow on the ice the snow combines with the tower to get some mass. For sure we are working toward a heafty base. Currently it is way more bomber that one would expect. We considered topping the maples to cut down on the wind effect but have decided that the set up we have is adequate? We'll see????

Prod.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 24, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
Uh, human fly swatter?
For the love of God: get outa' there Prod.
I got my rope stacked for you.
jsb

Trad climber
Bay area
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
hmmm, yeah... i guess i didn't realize that you were hoping for the structure to support itself. that'll be awesome if it works.

i'd love to see more photos as this thing comes along.
O.D.

Trad climber
LA LA Land
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
Hmmmm....those trees look kinda slender with respect to the load they'll be carrying.

With water ice weighing in at about 57-lb/cu.ft., when the ice has built up to a thickness of 6 inches (maybe the thickness before a supporting pedestal starts to form at the base of the sheet) the total ice load will be about 7.5 tons. When the ice gets to 8 inches in thickness (maybe a minimum for climbing in this situation?) the total ice weight will be about 11.5 tons; some of that weight may be supported by the sheet itself as it makes contact with the ground. Just looking at the photo, it's difficult to see how the top of the fence is keyed into the tree branches -- but however the fence is fixed to the trees, each attachment point has to be capable of sustaining several tons of force.

And, it looks like the ice sheet will function like a great big sail in the wind. Add a nice cantilever load to the trees in addition to the vertical load from the ice, and you may see the supporting trees turn to splinters in the blink of an eye.

A couple of suggestions: never undercut the base of the sheet (thereby removing its ability to support itself), and I wouldn't go near the sheet when there is anything more than a gentle breeze blowing. No helmet in the world will protect you from 10 tons of ice falling down on you.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
Tar is on to something....

Got to say it Prod.....



YER GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
I wonder if you might want to throw an intermittent support across the back - put up a 4x4 on either side and a cap across to support some of the weight, and just ice it in with the rest ? say 10-15 up ? might take some of the stress off the trees...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
"Now tell me the vertical compression strength of a 2x4."

I wouldn't expect vertical compression to be the primary failure mode. That thing looks like it wants to fall over sidways. I really hope I am wrong.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
http://www.alaskaalpineclub.org/IceTower/IceTowers.html

http://www.alaskaalpineclub.org/IceTower/OtherIceTowers.html



They all got base.

DMT
goatboy smellz

climber
colorado
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
Holy piss and cheerios Guyman!
That's a Wile E Coyote disaster waiting to happen.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
Now DMT, we all know, since 1957 (59?, 72?), that the summit ice shroom don't mean sheeit!
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
They left the water pump just hanging there. Someone tried to chop it down last year I heard.

Cook claimed the FA.

DMT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:28pm PT
Nothin' to be alramed about folks.
Read careful like upthread, at what Prod wrote.
Prod's boss, an architekt, designded & built this thing.
O.D.

Trad climber
LA LA Land
Jan 24, 2008 - 08:28pm PT
Yeah, affirming what DMT said -- looking at the photos on the Alaska Alpine Club site, it seems that if some kind of flaring structure were tacked right away onto the base of the sheet, you'd get a supporting pedestal built up fairly quickly. This thing could really work! Good luck!
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