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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 24, 2008 - 07:17pm PT
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We got hooked after Ice Climbing in Canada 2 weeks ago. So we decided that to get somewhat proficient in 1 season with the nearest ice being 2.5 hours away we’d need to improvise…….
While I was away in Grand Cayman my boss and another pal did the above. They turned the water on yesterday afternoon. What is here is less that 24 hours of single digits. I think it is a pretty good start.
If anyone has any advice on building more ice please do tell. The basic rig is a header tied into the trees with a working platform about 50’ up. Dangling a 12’ wide 45’ long piece of fence, with a 12’ x 1/2” pipe drilled with 1/8” holes hooked to a hose for our drip system. Today we supplemented with a power sprayer to build some body with a fine mist. That seemed to work pretty well.
Cheers and looking for input.
Prod.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Jan 24, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
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uhhhh... you know that trees fall over in ice storms, right?
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Jan 24, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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Actually... just an order of magnitude calculation here for ya.
Let's say you want some ice that's 5 inches thick, and your sheet is about 15ft x 50ft. The total weight of the ice on your rig is gonna be about 20,000 lbs.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 07:32pm PT
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Pretty cool, hope it works for you.
Good luck ....
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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Hi JSB,
Now tell me the vertical compression strength of a 2x4. Added to the fact that we are counting on, and building toward, a heafty load bearing base, along with guy wires and triangulation bracing to other trees. Above all of that I really hope you're wrong and it does not fall down.
Prod.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Jan 24, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
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Well, has there been a first ascent yet?
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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Thanks DMT,
We are working on that and have found that by blowing light snow on the ice the snow combines with the tower to get some mass. For sure we are working toward a heafty base. Currently it is way more bomber that one would expect. We considered topping the maples to cut down on the wind effect but have decided that the set up we have is adequate? We'll see????
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 24, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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Uh, human fly swatter?
For the love of God: get outa' there Prod.
I got my rope stacked for you.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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hmmm, yeah... i guess i didn't realize that you were hoping for the structure to support itself. that'll be awesome if it works.
i'd love to see more photos as this thing comes along.
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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Hmmmm....those trees look kinda slender with respect to the load they'll be carrying.
With water ice weighing in at about 57-lb/cu.ft., when the ice has built up to a thickness of 6 inches (maybe the thickness before a supporting pedestal starts to form at the base of the sheet) the total ice load will be about 7.5 tons. When the ice gets to 8 inches in thickness (maybe a minimum for climbing in this situation?) the total ice weight will be about 11.5 tons; some of that weight may be supported by the sheet itself as it makes contact with the ground. Just looking at the photo, it's difficult to see how the top of the fence is keyed into the tree branches -- but however the fence is fixed to the trees, each attachment point has to be capable of sustaining several tons of force.
And, it looks like the ice sheet will function like a great big sail in the wind. Add a nice cantilever load to the trees in addition to the vertical load from the ice, and you may see the supporting trees turn to splinters in the blink of an eye.
A couple of suggestions: never undercut the base of the sheet (thereby removing its ability to support itself), and I wouldn't go near the sheet when there is anything more than a gentle breeze blowing. No helmet in the world will protect you from 10 tons of ice falling down on you.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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Tar is on to something....
Got to say it Prod.....
YER GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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I wonder if you might want to throw an intermittent support across the back - put up a 4x4 on either side and a cap across to support some of the weight, and just ice it in with the rest ? say 10-15 up ? might take some of the stress off the trees...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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"Now tell me the vertical compression strength of a 2x4."
I wouldn't expect vertical compression to be the primary failure mode. That thing looks like it wants to fall over sidways. I really hope I am wrong.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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Holy piss and cheerios Guyman!
That's a Wile E Coyote disaster waiting to happen.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
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Now DMT, we all know, since 1957 (59?, 72?), that the summit ice shroom don't mean sheeit!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:28pm PT
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Nothin' to be alramed about folks.
Read careful like upthread, at what Prod wrote.
Prod's boss, an architekt, designded & built this thing.
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:28pm PT
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Yeah, affirming what DMT said -- looking at the photos on the Alaska Alpine Club site, it seems that if some kind of flaring structure were tacked right away onto the base of the sheet, you'd get a supporting pedestal built up fairly quickly. This thing could really work! Good luck!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
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Yup,
Time to break oot some steel.
Maybe tack on a couple them' 50's style rockit' ship fins at the base.
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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Jan 24, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
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"Prod's boss, an architekt, designded & built this thing."
Not to disparage the architecture profession, but you can get into architecture school with an undergrad degree in Art. If his boss has an engineering background (which many architects do), that would inspire a little more confidence.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2008 - 08:42pm PT
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Pagan,
That is why I am glad you didn't kick it with that heart thing. No doom saying to the inovators for you. Instead you have a great base building idea.
Roy,
How long have you known me? I'm still here aren't I.
Fish,
Pot, Kettle? Why are you still here?
etal,
I'll update progress and hopefully climbs....
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 24, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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Oh shoot,
We love ya Prod, an yer Boss.
All yuks aside, of course this is only phase one.
Git 'er done!!!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
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All of which begs the inevitable irreverent question: WWJD? (What would Jello do?)
Although, come to think of it, asking someone named Jello about how to keep an ice tower solid and erect may have its drawbacks. :-)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 25, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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Any abandoned concrete silos or roadcuts that you could glaze instead. The forest curtain makes me nervous because the considerable weight is suspended more than bearing on the base contact area. Accidents in North American Mountaineering would have to create a whole new category for your sort of madness! LOL
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Jan 25, 2008 - 11:22am PT
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I gotta steal this one from Jaybro.
I'll bring the popcorn.
Good luck Prod. IT looks like a lot of fun.
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Derek
climber
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Jan 25, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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Geesh...What's with all this 5-8" thick nonesense? Looks plenty fat enough to go right now. I'd call it good and start swingin' em.
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marky
climber
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Jan 25, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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eh, fukk it -- it looks safe enough
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lemon_boy
climber
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Jan 25, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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one thing that i notice is that it looks like it has practically NO torsional support. i would DEFINITELY do something about that, as that would be a VERY likely failure mode, and a mode that would most likely bring down a LOT of ice. just remember, frank lloyd wright was an architect and look at how his crap has held up over the years (YIKES!).
to get some better torsional strength, i would frame up 2 more 'walls' and connect them to your ice wall such that it is a 3 sided column. also, add some framing to the wall that is made of ice. BE SURE TO USE DIAGONAL BRACING, as framing in square shapes will have poor warp resistance (unless you cover the framing with fairly thick plywood.
other than that, looks cool bro!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 25, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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I've climbed on the one near Fairbanks. Guy used to put dye and sh#t in the water so it would be a mess of funky colors. Too cold to climb it much of the season, at -35 and colder it's dinnerplate and shatter city.
They started with the pipe low, and would add sections to it to raise it higher as the structure grew. That's how they were getting the big base. Maybe add a branch on your feeder pipe and run one at 1/3 height or something. If you can build it more or less bottom up, torsional issues won't exist. Or you could probably increase the flow rate and more of it would end up at/near the base.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Jan 25, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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You gotta figure one thing. IF the calculations on the weight of water are correct for that thing than adding a 185 lb (and dropping) dude with tools shouldn't make it fall over if it has not already.
Swing away... but make sure the video camera is running.
NatureMunchingPopcorn
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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Not dead yet! Week 2 took the wall down to 30% of the mass due to low 40’s and some rain. We took this opportunity to add some misc materials to the base in hopes of capturing more water to achieve a bigger base. For the most part we leaned pallets against the fence. It worked like a charm, currently the base is approximately 4’ thick and the ice at the top is 2-3” thick. Surprisingly the thin ice is very solid and climbable. The ice seems to mostly be bearing on the ground, this is evidenced by a few things, 1 none of the guy wires have become tense. 2 when the guy wires are pulled we can shake the platform and the trees but the ice is unaffected. Here are some shots from the first ascents. The back side is quite a bit steeper.
Front.
Back.
Cheers and thanks for the advice.
Prod.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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What's up with the toprope???
That plug looks like it could hold a screw or two.
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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In Wisconsin we started with 30 foot wood towers. The bottom would melt out in the spring and then would come down hard. About the mid 80's we did a 3 sided metal one about 65 feet up. We ran 3 water lines up (in case one froze - we were on a well and the kids would take a bath which lowered water pressure). Our only problem was the OSHA requirements - we may have failed a inspection if they had one. I remember we would drive out to the tower and leave my partner's baby son in the back seat with packs around him. We open the doors so we could hear him and go climb the ice. Didn't do any damage to him - he is bouldering and climbing hard on the Ship Prow now. He went to Peru with us a couple of years ago. Of course we take to the cold early in Wisconsin. I practice cold weather belays by sitting through the Ice Bowl (a Green Bay Packers game) when I was in junior high.
-kurt
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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Way to go, glad to hear it worked out for you guys. That was pretty imaginative to use the trees to set the headers -- we may see ice walls popping up in cold forests everywhere. Looks like a lot of fun!
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Robb
Social climber
Pick Up Truck Heaven
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Isn't front-pointing the cyclone fence (left foot ) cheating?
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute
you built your own rig because the ice is a mere 2.5 hours away?!!!!
sh!t, the catskills are like 3+ from NYC!!!!
lazy.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2008 - 10:25am PT
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Thought I'd update with some new pics of the "Human fly swatter" It is still standing. We now have climbing on 4 sides with the base about 15' thick going to a top with a thickness of 3 or so feet. It has easy stair stepped sections to overhanging bulges.
Here is the front with me leading
Back
Side
And the fromt again
Looks like we have about 2 more weeks before the thaw sets in. Christa nad I are heading up to Grand Island and Lake Superior this weekend. I'll try to get enough photos to put a TR together.
Prod.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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That's rad! Thanks for the update.
Looking forward to the TR
Cheers!
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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You're a madman, pull your head out of your ass and get out of Michigan before you completely lose it...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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oh dude thats sweeeeet...michigangineering at its finest ;-)
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Prod, these guys are from California and they are just a bunch of sissies. What do they know about climbing ice?
That things looks Truck compared to the Fang.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I just caught this thread... anyone who thought it was going to blow over because of wind obviously doesn't have much of an engineering brain...
Nice wall. 2.5 isn't much of a drive (isn't there some closer to Charlevoix anyway?), but nice wall nonetheless.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Yah do knot understand Domingo, that Guy is nuttier than a squirrel turd,
we're only trying to save him from himself.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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WBW?
Looks Truck? compared to the fang?
Domingo,
As far as I know there is the Gros Cap in the Canadian Sault, about 2.5 hours with the border crossing, then the Mad Moose about 3.5 hours, and Munising about 3.5 hours. If you know of anything closer let me know I'll get on it.
Goatboy,
Looks like we gotta track Radical down for some free grub!
Cheers,
Prod.
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Wow, Prod, just caught this thread. That's an awesome ice wall! And a proud lead. Way to go!
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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Hi Paulina,
How are you? and Where are you these days?
Prod.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Anaconda Ice--created by a guy who couldn't ever imagine climbing on it.
He does this to keep his water from freezing too deep in the pipe, I'm told.
I think that someone has asked the dude to take a "whack" at it, but that it happened only once.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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sweet pics, prod. must be a blast.
still wouldn't park that close if i were you. :)
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Paulina
Trad climber
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To Prod: I'm in Cambridge, MA, postdoc-ing part-time and planning a trip to Zion...
I think I went ice-climbing once this whole season! This thread makes me feel like a total wimp. Even though the closest ice is about ~1.5 hours away. Skiing and hanging out in the city has won out this winter.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 10, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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I just caught this thread too. So cool to see it in full action. GREAT work.
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Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
Fannie's Crack
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Apr 10, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
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Just heard a story of some friends that were on their fishing boat underneath a fifty foot dirt-cliff when it fell directly on top of them. Turns out the bank fell right on top of their boat trapping them fifteen feet on the bottom. The two of them are o.k. One popped up after a struggle and couldn't see his wife or dogs. In a moment his wife pops up, then one brown dog then the yellow. She is the only one who suffered any injury:broken ankle. My friend said she is black and blue head to toe though. Wild times may be just around the corner. P.S. Prod I can't say it passes the looks test but have fun anyways. I didn't get drawn for my elk hunt sos I guess I'll be at the Facelift playing my bongo. Tim
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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Wow! Between longboarding the Great Lakes and ice climbing on chickenwire you dudes have it made! Nice work. It looks like something worthy of Popular Mechanics. Or maybe Grit. Or Boys Life. Can't wait to see the triple-do-dare TR when some pre-teen has to lick that sucker.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:04pm PT
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Totally cool and rad, with only about 20% flavor of "guy gets airborne in lawn chair tied to balloons!"
I've got a tiny wall in my backyard (not ice) Mostly for looks and a few days in the spring when I'm paranoid about being out of shape
Congrats
karl
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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3rd season and we were a little taller this year. Top of the tower to the ground was about 80 feet. The front was pretty much dead verticle and we built some roofs etc to play around.
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2010 - 10:20am PT
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3rd season and we were a little taller this year. Top of the tower to the ground was about 80 feet. The front was pretty much dead vertical and we built some roofs etc to play around.
Prod.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 17, 2010 - 10:22am PT
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OMG, Tami is right, Ice Climbers and Offwidth Climbers are atavistic...
keep up the good work Prod!
I heard that Gary Carpenter's "Tower of Pain" has its season opener tonight... at the "Leavitation 101" width...
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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Tarbuster said....
Uh, human fly swatter?
Then Walling said
Tar is on to something....
Got to say it Prod.....
YER GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
Goat threw in...
Holy piss and cheerios Guyman!
That's a Wile E Coyote disaster waiting to happen.
Hey Nature did you bring the pop corn....
We got a little top heavy this season to be sure.
Anyone wanna buy some scaffolding?
It came down Saturday night, we had been done climbing it for about 3 weeks and the bottom melted out faster than the top.
Prod.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Mar 17, 2010 - 10:54am PT
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We don’t need no stinkin' scaffolding out around here.
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L
climber
Yeah it's a furball...I TOLD you I was a cat!
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Mar 17, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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Wow Prod--that tower was looking so cool!
You know, even in a heap of snow and lumber, it has a certain aesthetic appeal...;-)
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