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Ballo
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 19, 2019 - 01:17pm PT
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I've been thinking a lot lately about the difference between compassion, conscientiousness, and their relation to morality and the role they play in society. I'd like to share my thoughts and maybe start a discussion on this especially since this country has become so polarized along this (psychological?) difference.
Last Saturday (16th?) I didn't have anyone to climb with so I was hanging out in my ambulance in Benson, AZ on a crowded Walmart parking lot. I heard a tow truck working just outside and eventually took a peek. There was a latino man and black lady working on a car with the front wheel off. I thought maybe he was a mobile mechanic and he was working hard on the problem so I didn't think much of it. After sitting in the front seat a while it didn't seem to be progressing well so I approached them to see what was up.
They didn't speak a lick of English but I fount out that their engine mount had failed and the engine had dropped on their CV axle (2009 Ford Focus POS). He didn't seem to understand what to do, so I helped remove the steering knuckle and strut but the CV wouldn't slide out (probably due to overheating from having the engine resting on it while the car was in motion). At this point I thought they were boned for sure but managed to pull off a small miracle by renting close to $500 of tools from the part store (barely had enough on my card; she certainly didn't) including a hub removal kit and slide hammer and got the axle out. After reassembling the front suspension (and charging the battery with my rig) the car wouldn't start. Thankfully I had a semi-professional code reader (to fix my ABS shit) and found a bad cable where the wires had stripped and shorted. When the car was finally fixed the lady broke down, hugged me and wept on my shoulder (I didn't expect this). At this point I was covered in axle grease (CVs without boots spread that everywhere) and utterly exhausted.
Now, the reason I told this story in the life is that someone's first impression may be that this was an act of compassion, but IMO it was more like 1% compassion, 99% knowing the consequences of my actions, i.e. conscientiousness. Conscience is literally latin for "together with knowledge" or knowing the consequence of your actions, which in my opinion is what allows us to be moral beings in the first place. Compassion, on the other hand, comes from wanting to assuage someone's discomfort. I think the latter is absolutely necessary when, for example, dealing with a baby under 2 years of age. If a baby is crying you have to feed, clean, protect, etc. at any cost. I don't think, however, that this is an appropriate way to treat fellow adults or even children over 2 years old (or dogs for that matter, as I'm constantly reminded when I see people at crags with their unleashed pets).
I've been watching some videos from psychologists lately and more than one pointed out something interesting to me. People who are very compassionate tend to treat people like either a helpless victim (like a child) or a predator threatening that child. They also tended to treat people like scolding nannies proposing laws to curb people's behavior and even their beliefs. Sometimes this is referred to as a 'feminine' way of thinking (I think Jung called this the 'anima') which in its extreme form becomes ideological or even pathological. Whether you believe Jung was right, it does appear to explain a lot about how people think, and even how they label each other (such as "bleeding heart" or "heartless").
Just now I watched a documentary by KOMO on the disaster that is Seattle's homeless situation (published a couple days ago). It's very good and I think everyone will find it interesting regardless if they think I'm full of shit:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I think we've lost a balance between compassion vs conscientiousness, the same balance which tempers justice with mercy without annealing the sword into pig iron.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 19, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
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Compassion is its own reward.
Expect nothing in return.
It is the middle way.
To be concious of this
is easy but difficult
in action.
Love and respect.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Mar 19, 2019 - 01:51pm PT
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I could be wrong but this seems to be a pointless post aka meme.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 19, 2019 - 01:55pm PT
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The pointlessness of it is the point.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 19, 2019 - 02:31pm PT
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It’s not pointless unless virtue signaling went out of fashion while I was napping.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 19, 2019 - 03:05pm PT
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Well, compassion is ALL we've really got.
Not just to one and another but to all
the critters alike.
Getting all caught up in lifes struggles,
maybe lose it all, still one can have compassion.
What a gift.
Edit to add: Thanks Reilly (Virtue).
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 19, 2019 - 03:25pm PT
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As I see it, Moose, there is no right or wrong
there just is.
How you take it or give it is an abstract
formula that is conjured up and interpreted
in a myriad of ways.
Most of us know the difference of good from bad,
but it's not always quite clear. Sometimes one does bad
for the the good in the long run (war). Sometimes one
may have the best of intentions and it turns out bad.
A complicated subject but worthy of rational discussion.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2019 - 03:41pm PT
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I think we can largely agree that both parties pay lip service to a lot of sh#t they don't live up to. That game is about getting elected, not living up to promises.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Mar 19, 2019 - 03:53pm PT
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I'm terrible with vocabulary, better at math. I don't have much compassion for anyone but my family. I don't expect any for myself. I once watched a dually with a giant trailer flip and roll in front of me on the highway and I jumped out and pulled the people out of the truck, one was a boy and he was missing an arm. I searched for his arm while on 911. Turned out he was fine. He just had one arm.
My point is while I had no compassion for these people I always help to the best of my ability.
I posted about losing 2 friends last week. I didn't expect anything but several posted some very nice thoughts that has been helpful. Thanks!
S....
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Mar 19, 2019 - 04:38pm PT
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Fine. I guess I am also compassionate....I try to avoid it...
S...
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Mar 19, 2019 - 08:01pm PT
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^^^LOL!!!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 20, 2019 - 07:47am PT
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The title piqued my interest because I didn’t immediately see a dichotomy.
After ruminating briefly, a few unordered thoughts:
1. Not having compassion for people who make the same repeated mistakes is to project yourself onto others and be upset that they are not responding as you imagine you would respond. Perhaps they don’t have the cognitive faculties to understand their plight in the way that you do. Or perhaps you don’t really understand their plight. Perhaps you are unable to grasp the extent of their suffering in a moment that dictates their short-term course of action that dooms them in the long term. Perhaps you (and they) don’t understand their deeper emotional sore spot that is somehow masked or avoided by embracing whatever suffering comes of the more obvious repeated mistakes. Our coping mechanisms can be complex.
2. I see conscientiousness as one possible motive for the general label of “compassion.” It might be the more favored motive by those of an analytical bent. The times I am compassionate are probably more closely motivated by this because I tend to map reality into explicit models as a way of trying to make sense of the world around me and my place in it. One of my guiding principles is to optimize a system to maximize the “good” for the most people.
3. After thinking about it more... I see conscientiousness and compassion as two forms of perception that triggers some response. Compassion is perception of a current state of emotion, whereas conscientiousness is perception of cause and effect in a system. Both of these perceptions can motivate actions in response. Compassion can motivate an emotional consoling response, but conscientiousness is more likely to see how a problem manifests and how it can be mitigated. Both can be helpful to others and/or ourselves.
So I land still with my initial impression of not seeing a dichotomy so much as a fine distinction.
Edit: adding a bit to tie in to first post.... perhaps the point of the first post is to encourage a movement beyond simple compassion/consoling of those who are downtrodden, and take some useful action as a logical or pragmatic response to mitigating the problems? Having the action associated with conscientiousness be a greater virtue than the simple understanding of compassion?
Or, to quote AOC, “What good are your thoughts and prayers?”
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 20, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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Ballo: . . . knowing the consequence of your actions . . . .
No one knows this. It seems as though we know, but close observation / experimentation shows that we only know things about the future very generally, never specifically.
Kagyu Buddhists say that there are 4 immeasurables (unlimited virtues), one of which is compassion. Each virtue has near and far enemies (which helps to understand the core of each of the virtues). Compassion's far (greatest) enemy is cruelty. When you're teasing someone, it's a form of cruelty (as an example). Compassion's near enemies (those that may not look like enemies) are pity, helplessness, and idiot compassion. Idiot compassion is an expression of care, of being nice. Oftentimes, being "nice" serves no one but one's own sense of importance or politically correctness. Buddhists tend to have an abiding belief in "skillful means" in issues of morality, and what is skillful can only be assessed after the fact, or in wisdom. (But wisdom is a code word for emptiness or a lack of substantiality of "thingness.") Supposedly, wisdom is the other side of the coin from bodhichitta, a term which has been translated by Westerners as "compassion." The two notions (compassion vs. bodhichitta) are not identical. Bodhichitta supposedly comes from seeing the emptiness of things, which challenges common understanding of compassion.
All of the above is "technical." The pragmatic questions seem to revolve around questions of what to do and how to feel when one sees or perceives suffering.
The sense of right and wrong that arises from con-science (with science or knowledge of material action) focuses on outcomes (consequences), but as I said above, no one knows what outcomes will be in the last analysis.
Get your own house (heart) in order before you start to serve others. As Reilly points out, the question really revolves arounds notions of virtue. What is virtue? Virtue is not an external, ends-means concern. It tends to be a notion oriented to process. Ditto for climbing, no? You climb because you enjoy climbing, not to racking up higher grades or ratings on your list of achievements.
There are also views that say that what is "good" [sic] is what comes automatically to those who are completely, totally in-the-moment. In this sense, there is no action intended at all. It points to a consciousness that is almost unconscious. Conscientiousness is guileful.
One can see how complicated and confusing notions of right / wrong, good / bad, ends / means, free will / determination, etc. such issues are. We might take some guidance from the Tao de Ching:
"The Master understands the universe
is forever out of control . . .
. . . [so] trying to dominate events
goes against the current of the Tao."
"The Master does nothing,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet many more are left to be undone."
"When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos."
May God save us from those who would save us from ourselves. Don't do good, please. The most important compassion one can generate is for him or herself. Put on your own oxygen first before you put oxygen masks on others. Realize at-one-ment. Save yourself first; then you can see to what extent the world need saving.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Straight Outta Crafton
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Mar 20, 2019 - 08:04am PT
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Or, to quote AOC, “What good are your thoughts and prayers?”
That fool who killed all those people in New Zealand, he had a problem with the thoughts and prayers of those in the mosques.
You're either on that totem pole, or you're not.
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Trump
climber
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Mar 20, 2019 - 08:30am PT
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I like to express my thoughts out of compassion for other people’s failures of understanding.
Or for some other reason(s).
Tough call.
And even tougher when I try to make that judgment of why other people do it.
Yet that never seems to stop me from trying.
And then expressing my thoughts about it out of compassion for other people’s failures to understand.
Or some other reason(s). Tough call.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Mar 20, 2019 - 12:31pm PT
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I find this post difficult to respond to intelligently as I believe the author sees a tension or dissonance between compassion and conscientiousness that is not apparent to me at all. My reaction is similar to NutAgain's comment: "I didn’t immediately see a dichotomy."
I think what the OP's trying to say is simply "good intentions don't always lead to good results" or Acts motivated by "compassion" may fail to correct the supposed ill.
That's an "of course" proposition and says little. In Buddhism, the point is made that the actor must both possess good intentions and utilize skillful means in order to accomplish their goal. Often the two are not present simultaneously and the results reflect same. (Actually, Buddhism makes the goal even more complex to reach enlightenment to benefit all beings for it prescribes the "Eightfold Path." "Skillful means" and "good intentions" are only two of the eight:
The Eight are to be practiced simultaneously. They are: right view; right resolve; right speech; right action; right livelihood; right effort; right mindfulness; right meditation.
Action performed from this basis will be effective and not suffer from the deficiencies the OP decries.
Easily said than done, of course.
For what it's worth, I offer definitions of the adjective and noun (which don't suggest any dissonance or dichotomy viz. compassion):
Google defines the noun "con·sci·en·tious·ness" as:
the quality of wishing to do one's work or duty well and thoroughly.
"his conscientiousness is second to none and he regularly makes follow-up calls to ensure everything is going well"
Wikipedia opines:
"Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or diligent. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly."
Dictionary.com offers two definitions of the adjective "conscientious:"
1.governed by conscience; controlled by or done according to one's inner sense of what is right; principled:
"She's a conscientious judge, who does not let personal prejudices influence her decisions.
careful and painstaking; particular; meticulous; scrupulous:"
2.careful and painstaking; particular; meticulous; scrupulous:
"conscientious application to the work at hand."
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/conscientious
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Mar 20, 2019 - 04:52pm PT
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I think we've lost a balance between compassion vs conscientiousness, the same balance which tempers justice with mercy without annealing the sword into pig iron.
Compassion: Deep awareness of the suffering of another, coupled with the wish to relieve it.
Influenced by conscience; governed by a strict regard to the dictates of conscience, or by the known or supposed rules of right and wrong; -- said of a person.
Ballo states there is a balance but adds, versus? Please state what your balance is, and then give examples of how compassion is opposed to morality (good/evil--conscientious).
I've been thinking a lot lately about the difference between compassion, conscientiousness, and their relation to morality and the role they play in society. I'd like to share my thoughts and maybe start a discussion on this especially since this country has become so polarized along this (psychological?) difference.
Please do share your thoughts on morality, and give examples of your tempered justice with mercy.
Good subjects Ballo.
edit#1 replace verses with versus.
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Trump
climber
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Mar 21, 2019 - 10:48am PT
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I get it that the guy was Latino and the woman was black.
But out of conscientiousness, I can’t help wondering what the race of the parts store owner was, or even the parts store clerk, and why their race doesn’t play a role in the story?
What’s the relevance of the man and the woman’s race? Is that said out of conscientiousness, or out of compassion? What’s the relevance of the two year old baby’s age in the story? Does it have a similar relevance? And is that a boy baby or a girl baby?
I think we often don’t understand ourselves as well as we might, and when we extend it to an others level, or a societal level, I think we understand it even less well. I think if we were more conscientious about noticing the stuff that goes into what we do, I’d agree that it often has very little to do with compassion. And we might not really end up seeing any difference at all.
We do stuff. And then we tell ourselves stories about what we did. Ok. Might as well tell a good story. It’s what we do.
We can TRY to be good predictors of the future consequences of specific alternative actions. And we can tell ourselves a story that we ARE good conscientious accurate predictors of the future.
But then which action are you going to take? Which consequence do you prefer, and for what reasons? Do you prefer a compassionate consequence, or something else? And does the race of the consequentee matter? Or does other people knowing the race of your consequentee matter?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 06:08pm PT
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MikeL, you said you can't know the consequences of your actions then redefine it as "skillful means". Conscientiousness is the trait of someone wanting to learn and employ "skillful means".
Nobody knows the objective world in any absolute sense, but clearly this was not the meaning intended.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 06:28pm PT
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capseeboy, So far as I can see, compassion does not in itself make someone moral. In fact, the reason only humans can be moral is because they are aware of the consequences of their actions (to the limited degree available to mortals).
I didn't mean to imply that people who are compassionate lack conscientiousness or visa versa, although they are separate traits. The "big 5" personality test shows consistently that people high in one trait tend to be low in the other. The trait is usually called "agreeableness" which tends toward cooperation and openness while disagreeable people tend to be argumentative. I'm not saying disagreeable people are conscientious, but they're swayed by arguments on, for example, the law as opposed to appeals to empathy alone.
Justice is associated with people who are more right-leaning and mercy with people who are more left-leaning. In one extreme you end up with something like authoritarianism while the opposite is more akin to chaos. The happy middle, justice tempered with mercy, the rules aren't ignored but true justice depends on the unique circumstances where acts were committed and the accused (or whatever) has to be judged with an understanding of both the facts/rules and empathy.
Decades ago I saw some obscure documentary on a jury deciding what would be the fate of a man who violated his parole. Everyone on the jury except one man, a firefighter and law-and-order type, thought justice demanded clemency in this case (I think the violation was having a weapon which wasn't used in any manner). The firefighter just crossed him arms and said "rules are rules!" but I think he eventually caved so not to hang the jury. It was probably the better decision in this case, but in the case of the Seattle situation where none of the rules are being applied the situation has become lawless and chaotic, and this doesn't appear to be helping anyone.
Maybe a bit mealy-mouthed but I'm a bit distracted here...
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