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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 23, 2017 - 10:58am PT
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I know some folks hoarded a few 5/16" buttonheads for FAs, but now that we know that any split shaft - 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" threaded top or buttonhead - can just snap even when not that old or rusted, anyone have a few they could send my way for (destructive) removal testing?
There are some brute-force pulling techniques for 5/16" buttonheads that work great in hard rock (heavy hammer, prybar, crowbar, Dan McDevitt posted but I couldn't find the thread - also various tuning fork/crowbar options here - http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1160775&tn=0&mr=0 ).
However they can gouge out the rock behind the hanger in grainy or medium quality rock (or even harder granite which is prone to spalling), so I'm trying to work out various removal methods. So far the only thing that I've found that works cleanly every time is quite power tool intensive - very careful cutting of the flanges with a grinder, pop off the hanger, then drill small holes around the bolt with tiny SDS bits, pull the bolt with pliers or fingers, and drill the ragged hole out to 9/16" for 12mm glue-ins.
I have a few 3/8" threaded top split-shaft so I don't need those, but if anyone has a few 3/8" buttonheads those would be good too (those were huge, they needed 12mm hole hangers or custom hangers).
Also I'm totally out of 3/8" x 3" carbon steel 5-pieces (the "normal" size for most early sport routes), gave my mid-'90s bought-at-the-hardware-store-ones away for others to do removal testing, and the little box that I though had a few more actually has a few hand-painted camo Petzl Long-lifes (got on pro-deal late '90s)! Powers stopped making the carbon steel 5-pieces a few years back.
Let me know, thanks! Greg
greg@safeclimbing.org
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Feb 23, 2017 - 11:25am PT
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Greg,
I think I've got a box full of the 5/16th buttonheads. How many do you want and where should I send them? You can use my home email to get me an address.
(I say "think I do" because I might have given them to Mucci for rivet ladders and I'm not at home to check.)
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
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Cool, I'll email you details, hope you have some left!
Bruce Hildenbrand has extra 3/8" x 3" so looks like that's covered as well.
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Feb 23, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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I got some 5/16 rawl buttons as well as some fixe 5/16
rawl/powers 2.75" I think quite few and some 2.25" carbon
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 23, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
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Greg- You need to talk to Geir Hundal in Tucson if you haven't already. He has a tube puller that works well and has been extracting lots of 3/8" split shaft bolts too in the course of his effort in the Cochise Stronghold. He has also perfected extraction methods for wedge bolts too.
I have a three point puller which doesn't damage the rock and I will post a photo of it for you over the weekend.
Surely you have been going to the AAC best practices meetings about bolts and bolting policy.
Cheers
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 23, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
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Not AAC but Access Fund?
The information on the AF site is pretty good.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Feb 23, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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Greg,
I've got about 25 and I'll put 10 in the mail to you on Monday (heading out to Pinns early tomorrow).
Is it OK if I put an ASCA donation check in with the bolts?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
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OK? Are you kidding? Of course!!
SG, yes I've talked to Geir several times and I have a three point puller he made. Also have a tubular puller that just uses a pin through the eye of the bolt. There are several designs of extractors as well, the Access Fund has had some of these available.
If the hanger doesn't snap (or bend/deform/rip off), they can work depending on the rock, but as we don't have them available it's not that much use to tell rebolters about them and not have them included in the box of bolts for replacement!
I've had good luck with pulling the bolt out a bit with pins, tapping back in, pulling out, repeat until the bolt breaks out enough rock and pulls. Works in good granite and doesn't require any extra tools (which is great when you weren't expecting 5/16"), but it takes a while. Definitely does not work as the rock gets grainy or softer.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Feb 23, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
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OK? Are you kidding? Of course!!
Not kidding. And I figured that making that comment on a public forum would give us a chance to point out how great an organization ASCA is. Everyone should send what they can at least once a year.
I'll put a check in with the bolts.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 23, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
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Sounds good.
I can attest to the difficulty of pulling 5/16" buttonheads from good rock.
I gave away the last of my 5/16" buttonheads to Jim Herson. He had a friend who wanted to test their strength when newly placed.
This was for an analysis after the March 2015 fatality in Owens River Gorge where Scott Sederstrom was solo aiding on single 5/16" bolts
and one broke where it was cracked (and he had no backup anchor).
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2595487/Broken-bolt-in-Owens-5-16-buttonhead
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Access Fund
climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 23, 2017 - 10:33pm PT
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Greg and everyone,
We are currently in a production run of the Hurley Jrs and Srs. Thanks to a generous donor, we will have some of them available to give away to people who will be putting them to good use. Greg, I'm going to be out of the country until mid-March but you should come over to the office and let's discuss options on how Access Fund can support you and your awesome network of volunteers. -Brady
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Feb 23, 2017 - 11:31pm PT
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Greg,
I have a box of 50 3/8" x 3" carbon steel 5-pieces headed your way tomorrow. Unfortunately, the box is so full I couldn't get a donation check in there as well:-)
Brady,
great that the Access Fund and your donor have made the Hurley Srs and Jrs available. We are putting your Anchor Replacement Fund grant to good use at Pinnacles National Park. Your grant along with continued support from the ASCA have been great. Now, if we could just do something about the 2hr drive (4hr RT) and all the rain we have been getting that would be even better!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 23, 2017 - 11:54pm PT
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Don't know what some of the old split shank buttons were that got used around here, but they are bomb 60 years later. Burned up not one, but three brand new lennox bi-metal sawzall blades on one once and collectively they barely nicked it. Bummer the hangers are complete shite melting off them.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
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One of the maddening aspects of those split shaft style compression bolts is that the tempering seems to vary quite a bit from batch to batch. They are designed to anchor to concrete which is generally pretty soft when compared to most desirable rock types.
If you are concerned about hole spalling when removing split shaft bolts it would be worth considering using a cordless die grinder with a wafer thin cutting wheel to flush cut one side of the split once the bolt is drawn out enough to access the split point.
I am heading out of town early tomorrow morning so I will post a photo of my puller once I get back.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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Awesome Brady, let me know when they're available, a lot of local rebolters need them (especially now that we have the spinner tools)!
healyje, yeah that's what most everyone thought - trying to pull 5/16" or bigger split-shafts, you're bending crowbars, smashing hangers, wrecking your elbows, cursing the heavens....except that every once in a while the bolt snaps with nearly zero force. That's the problem, that once in a while it'll fail with low force. I always used to pass up 5/16" buttonheads as "bomber" (if the hanger was good) and cursed the ones with Leepers and thin SMCs that I had to go after.
But now ALL split-shafts are known to fail at low forces every once in a while.
Which is really painful for bolt replacement, since most of the bolts are a HUGE pain to remove and it seems pointless since the bolt would have easily held 5000 pounds...except the one or two that suddenly snap!
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega
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Good thread, guys, and timely. I was recently given a leftover bag of bolts from a local guy who did a bunch of FA's back in the day. He thought perhaps I could use them for new routes, which was very kind. Because of the thread heads, I always assumed the old bolts we were clipping were 3/8 wedge anchors. So it was surprising to realize they were all compression bolts. These have been time tested and none have failed, but now its weighing heavy on my mind. It would be a lot of effort but I feel we should go ahead and replace them all. Some have already been replaced with stainless glue-ins, but in new holes. The old studs are still there. Brady was gracious enough to give me a Hurly Jr, which I have yet to try using on these bolts. Luckily, I have some that I can use to practice. Thoughts and advice appreciated.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Jerry,
the key to distinguishing between a split shaft and a wedge bolt is well-documented in your last photo. If you look at the bolt threads you will see that they are about 1/2" long and then there is a smooth shaft. That's a split shaft. The threads of a wedge bolt would disappear into the hole and there would be no smooth shaft visible.
BTW, be careful threading the Hurley JR onto the bolt stud. With early versions of the tool, which have hopefully been corrected, you could strip the threads if you were not careful.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
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Just got the buttonheads plus your donation Brad, thanks! And thanks Bruce for the whole box of 3/8" x 3" carbon steel 5-pieces!
It would be a lot of effort but I feel we should go ahead and replace them all.
Yes, that's going to be the best call (unfortunately). Of course all the wedge bolts and 5-piece from the same era are going to need replacement even in dry areas sooner or later (already rusted to death in very wet climates).
Still, we should prioritize bolt replacement (if we know what they are), perhaps like this (I'm including the first two even though that's probably a big "duh!" for most folks):
 1/4" bolts of any type
anything with Leeper, thin SMC hangers, or otherwise sketchy hangers (sometimes you can just swap hangers if the bolt seems fine)
split-shafts, whether 5/16" or 3/8"
3/8" Star-Drives (I'm putting these below split-shafts because everyone assumes split-shafts are bomber when they may fail easily, and pretty much everyone looks at a Star-Drive and thinks "Sketch!", and besides most of these are in the second category since they usually have sketchy hangers).
wedge bolts, 5-pieces, the more rusted the more urgent
We should pick FA brains on location of 3/8" threaded split-shafts (since they're not easily spotted like buttonheads), anyone want to start? I've found them in Pinnacles, Courtright, Red Rocks, Tuolumne, eastside, Joshua Tree...specifics would be great from anyone who knows of particular routes with those!
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Flydude
Trad climber
Prather, CA
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Would suggest Smoke for Face at Courtright...I'd be happy to meet you there and assist.(when the snow melts)..I think when the guide comes out there will be a lot of business on that route. As Always thanks for your efforts in keeping our cool places safe...d.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Hey Greg,
Banquo just invented a portable proof-tester for 3/8" stud (wedge or split shaft) bolts. This device accurately loads the bolt with 2000 lbs in tension. If the bolt pulls or snaps, then you replace it. If it holds, then you put the hanger back on and move on to the next bolt- keeping a log of testing, of course.
Here is how he made it:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
You could probably get Banquo to make you several of these testers if you paid him for his time and materials.
The Access Fund and the ASCA could save a lot of time by using this device to sort out which 3/8" stud bolts to prioritize for replacement. Proof testing allows a volunteer to verify existing bolts as safe (enough) and would ultimately result in more "bad" or "time bomb" bolts being replaced per hour of work.
I think there are plenty of old 3/8" stud bolts out there that are perfectly fine, and will be for years to come. Limited funds for new SS or Titanium hardware should be spent replacing bolts that actually need replacing, no?
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