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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 4, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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These are a real bitch to remove. In this case, the rivet is usually good but the hangers are really bad smc. Makes me not so stoked to place any more of these. Nastiest bolt to remove/replace by far.
Has anyone had luck drilling them out?
Monster tuning fork?
?
??
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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5/16"
meh
try a 3/8" buttonhead, nighmarish, and that was only 3/4 buried in pinnacles rock.
yikes!
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Loomis
climber
*_*
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Hey, switch over to the other one, way better control and you can clean up a lot more crap from the leftover metal.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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"Makes me not so stoked to place any more of these."
I thought Rawl quit making them a decade ago? They are the best way to go if you are hand drilling as they only take slightly longer then a 1/4 incher to punch in but are way stronger.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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center punch the remainder back into it's original hole and then patch the hole with the remainder of the shank in place
No chance to redrill the same hole? The idea here is to not punch more holes in the rock if possible, even if it takes a while to drill out.
They are the best way to go if you are hand drilling as they only take slightly longer then a 1/4 incher to punch in but are way stronger.
Following that logic, a 3/8" doesnt take much longer to drill than a 5/16" buttonhead. I think if there is the need for speed then 1/4", everything else stubby stainless 3/8". Spend an extra 3min drilling now saves hours later on. If drilling rawl studs is your choice, you can get the 2.25" length and cut it down to 1.75". Basically same holding power as a 5/16" buttonhead but stainless, still impossible to remove though...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Yes, a tuning fork with a large enough gap for 5/16" is helpful.
Multiple knifeblade pitons also help, especially for getting started.
Also, the main trick is to get it out as much as you can with fork/pins,
then you tap it back in! Blow out the dust and repeat.
When the bolt is finally out, blow out the dust, rotate the bolt 90 degrees, and pound it back in (with hanger). Then extract again - this will help widen the hole for redrilling with 3/8"; otherwise that part can be very tough. [Edit: this technique is for hand drilling; not needed for power drilling]
SMC hangers with 5/16" are usually the good ones (stainless, not the thin chrome moly). The stainless SMC hangers are plenty good enough - the biner will break before they do.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I meet very little resistance from 1/4 and 5/16 bolts with this unit. It's not big enough for 3/8 though. It's a wrecking bar with the end cut off, but you have to spend the extra $ for a hardened one.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Roger and I, 90-95% of the time, redrill the original hole.
This is in hard granite, and we are enlarging from 1/4" (and sometimes 5/16") to 3/8".
If I was replacing a 3/8" rawldrive in softer rock (like breccia at Pinnacles or grainy granite/quartz monzonite), then the hole would be enlarged, and either a new hole or enlarging to 1/2" would be the way. Often at Pinnacles, the old 3/8" bolt is a Star Dryvin, and the hole will be intact.
Of course, if you are replacing non-stainless 3/8" wedge bolts, those can't normally be pulled, so cutting and patching is the only option for them.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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WOW - I guesss I'm old but 5/16" used to state of the art for lead drilling. A good 3/8" rawl/powers really is not that much harder to drill though. At 2.25 " they are quite strong in granite.
Pulling a 5/16 means really getting under it with A KB or such as Clint suggest, Is it really that bad a bolt ?
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Well who doesn't want a fresh clean hole ?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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True, the non-SS Rawl 5 pieces could definitely be very hard to get out, and if the granite is not very hard, the hole may be enlarged.
We are lucky and it is mostly 1/4" that we replace; pretty easy to pull and enlarge/deepen the hole.
5/16" - yep, they can be quite good. We are looking mostly for 1/4" in Yosemite Valley, not going out of our way to find 5/16"!
[Edit:] See Greg's comments on the next page, too.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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Ksolem: Nice, looks like I need to get more leverage.
Clint: The hangers on these aren't the super thin ones, 5/16" never fit through those. Most of the time the newer smc/rivet combos are really good, I agree. Not with these, unfortunately, they are toast: 2 are badly cracked (whippers?), the rest have normal corrosion for being in a water streak and having combined plated/stainless. Yeah, 1/4" are the worst and are (luckily?) really easy to pull.
Chief: I always try to redrill if the hole is useable. If a 1/4" pulls easy and I'm hand drilling and the rock is feelin solid: SS 3/8" 5 piece. Case by case basis, though. Sometimes the hanger is bad sometimes the rivet. Sometimes both are still good. If the hole is rotten/crooked, boschin it to a 1/2" might be required. Yeah, sometimes a new hole is required. From my experience most bolts that pull clean can be redrilled.
Thanks for solid info everyone. Keep up the good work.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Interesting timing that this thread came up! I had just made some new tools for the specific purpose of removing 5/16" Rawl "buttonheads."
Has anyone had luck drilling them out? Drilling down the center of a 5/16" x 1-1/2" bolt is quite impractical in the field. It would be possible to cut/grind off the head, remove the hanger, and then use a diamond core drill to make an oversized hole. That would be quite a chore, and with an expensive core bit. Power tools required of course.
Monster tuning fork? Yes, that will work, with varying results. Try a 1" cold chisel, with a 5/16" slot cut or milled into it. Then grind the tip so that the angle is more acute.
It works very well with 1/4" bolts. I've had some success with 5/16" bolts. My modified chisel tends to flex/spread, and gouges into the rock, causing some additional damage. The general idea is good, and I'm looking to improve my methods. Friends are volunteering their labor to replace 20 year old 5/16" buttonheads, on two of my long friction routes. That adds up to 135 bolts!
Here are some new "tuning forks". Not yet tested.
Above is a Bosch Tile Chisel which might be good for getting the bolt started out of it's hole. Extracting the first 1/4" is the most difficult without gouging the rock.
I'm hopeful that a piece of sheet metal will protect the rock from most chisel marks:
My hunch is that some combination of tuning forks is the best way to extract 5/16" buttonheads.
Nevertheless, (and curiousity getting the better of me) I went forward with my design for a kick-ass slide hammer. Any guesses as to how well this will work?
The "fork" is the cut off end of a Vaughan "SuperBar". Slotted 5/16" and acute angle ground on the tip. Handle can be disassembled (unscrewed) to add additional weight.
Might get a chance to try it out this weekend on some old Rawl buttonheads in Baja. Will report back.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Yank on it, get enough of the shank exposed behind the hanger, cut it with a hacksaw blade enough to break it off, center punch the remainder back into it's original hole and then patch the hole with the remainder of the shank in place."
"I NEVER re-drill the original hole!"
"No more fking around with pulling shet. Cut, punch and paste up!"
"I would much rather have a fresh clean hole for the new SS bolts."
The Chief,
You made your point, several times. I wholeheartedly disagree with your destructive methods. Cutting and patching should be a method of last resort, not the first option. Drilling a new hole should be a last resort as well. The fewer holes in the rock, the better.
Clint has it right (thank you Clint!) "Roger and I, 90-95% of the time, redrill the original hole. This is in granite, and we are enlarging from 1/4" (and sometimes 5/16") to 3/8"."
Wack,
I thought Rawl quit making them a decade ago? (Referring to 5/16" buttonheads.) Yes, that size has been out of production for over a decade. I'm still hoarding my stash of a box or two.
Fixe has a similar looking bolt in slightly thicker, 8mm x 40mm.
The consensus seems to be that it is soft and frequently bends during installation (unless Fixe has changed materials/hardening in recent years).
When the bolt is finally out, blow out the dust, rotate the bolt 90 degrees, and pound it back in (with hanger). Then extract again - this will help widen the hole for redrilling with 3/8"; otherwise that part can be very tough. Additional note: Clint's advice is applicable to hand-drilling. Not necessary when power-drilling.
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willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
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So now there are youtube videos to show you how to work a grinder and where the brushes are!?!?!?!? WTF.
Other than that, cool modded tools bump
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Clint: The hangers on these aren't the super thin ones, 5/16" never fit through those. Most of the time the newer smc/rivet combos are really good, I agree. Not with these, unfortunately, they are toast: 2 are badly cracked (whippers?), the rest have normal corrosion for being in a water streak and having combined plated/stainless.
Actually the old thin SMC hangers were made with 3/8" holes (as well as 1/4" and 5/16"), and the hangers you are seeing must be the thin SMCs. I've seen stainless SMCs severely bent (like 45 degrees) from use on overhung routes with no cracking, and I've seen a number of the old thin ones cracked.
Before people get into a shouting match, The Chief's advice on chopping the bolt is actually pretty good for 5/16" in grainy not-so great granite (such as Alabama Hills, medium Josh rock, Little Egypt, that sort of rock), while everyone else's advice is good for bomber granite or for soft rock like medium to soft sandstone, Pinnacles, etc. There's that mid range of rock where you will totally thrash the rock under the hanger trying to pull the 5/16", but the rock is grabby enough that you won't pull it easily.
I disagree with The Chief on not re-using the hole, and I think all rebolters should try to reuse the original hole on principle, but it's highly dependent on the rock, and he's dealing with some not-exactly-El-Cap-quality rock down at Alabama Hills, Clark Canyon, etc. I certainly wouldn't worry about dissimilar materials in the hole since enlarging the hole to the new size bolt will nearly always take care of any old metal.
Despite needing to hand drill, we actually have it really easy when replacing 1/4" in granite - easy to pull the bolt and we can nearly always re-use the hole. It can get really messy when replacing bolts that you can't pull, and the Chief has clearly seen this more than a few times. Some crags in Europe have this mess at EVERY bolt: old self-drill bolt with the bolt unscrewed and the sleeve exposed and rusting, old rusty stud bolt chopped off (often poorly) and rusting, and nice glue-in bolt.
Back to pulling 5/16" - for bomber granite, listen to Clint:
Also, the main trick is to get it out as much as you can with fork/pins,
then you tap it back in! Blow out the dust and repeat. The key is repeat - repeat lots of times. Think of it like you are using the 5/16" bolt as a drill to break out rock. So when you tap it back in, don't tap it too flush, and don't go overboard trying to pull out too far before cycling again.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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sound advice, greg. appreciate.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Please remember that dissimilar metals when matched will in fact create a far more destructive and dangerous situ. Thus, if any hole has a non-SS cone or residual part of the original bolt remaining in the hole that can not be removed, it is best to patch it and redrill when placing any SS type bolt.
I don't think its a deal in this case. The leftover grade 5 zinc plated bits would be the anode when in contact with any stainless steel. If there were any galvanic type corrosion, these bits would get it, and not the stainless parts.
I know folks who've funked out the cone, after pluckin' the sleeve stuff out. I've used an old, trashed drill bit to hog 'em out, too, and that is pretty effective (carbide insert just chews right through the cone and sleeves too, if need be). With a brush and bulb, I'd imagine the hole is pretty clean, especially when redrilled with a new bit (or, a bump up to the next diameter, like 3/8" to 1/2").
Plus, its so dry in your area... I still have never seen an issue with carbon steel bolts matched with stainless hangers. Which, from a galvanic situation would be not great (although not as bad as those aluminum hangers at Index matched with carbon steel bolts, yikes!). And, that zinc plated bolt/stainless hanger combo is SUPER common. Anyone?
Good stuff!
-Brian in SLC
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I know Bachar had posted the pic of his bolt puller several times in the past. Seems like the perfect tool for pulling buttonheads and not tearing up the rock.
Fortunately I haven't had to deal with 5/16" buttonheads, but one has to wonder with all the difficulty of removing them if they aren't better then we give them credit for, assuming the hanger isn't damaged. I've even pulled some 1/4" buttonheads that were a real bugger.
And put me in the camp that re-uses the original hole whenever possible.
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Llewellen, you have one of the best user names ever.
"Llewelyn Moss: Well how would you describe him?
Carson Wells: Well I guess I'd say he doesn't have a sense of humor. His name is Chigurh.
Llewelyn Moss: Sugar?
Carson Wells: Chigurh. Anton Chigurh."
"Wendell: Aww, hells bells. They even shot the dog!"
"
Anton Chigurh: I'm looking for Llewelyn Moss.
Manager: Did you go up to his trailer?
Anton Chigurh: Yes, I did.
Manager: Well, I'd say he's at work. Do you want to leave a message?
Anton Chigurh: Where does he work?
Manager: I can't say.
Anton Chigurh: Where does he work?
Manager: Sir, I ain't at liberty to give out no information about our residents.
Anton Chigurh: Where does he work?
Manager: Did you not hear me? We can't give out no information."
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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I agree with Greg Barnes about the strength of 5/16" buttonheads. If it's a good placement in solid granite, and the hanger is sound, leave it!
By the way, I have a big bag of Fixe 5/16" buttonheads. If anyone wants to buy them, I'll sell them cheap!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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NOOO - don't sell them, toss them in the trash! Wrong size (8mm not 5/16"), junk metal, and if anyone actually manages to place them they always break when removing (just snap off at the head - not much work involved). So a replacement bolt will be in a new hole instead of reusing the hole.
Fixe really should stop selling them. I've been telling them that for years...
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Greg, I can't disagree! The few times I have tried to place them, they buckled going in. I have kept them thinking I might find a larger bit that would make them usable. I trust your advice though, and will toss them out.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Great info!
Kate and I found Bill Russell's 5/16" buttonheads on Bad Seed to be fully bomber still, so we didn't have to replace any.
Does anybody have any of these things left? If I were at an El Cap anchor, and had to replace a couple old 1/4-inchers, how would people feel about one 3/8" bolt, and one 5/16" buttonhead, were such a critter still available?
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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May 11, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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"The first rule of 5/16" buttonheads is to not mess with them unless there's a good reason!"
No
The first rule of 5/16" buttonheads is:
NOBODY TALKS ABOUT 5/16" BUTTONHEADS!
You already know the second rule...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 11, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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“Does anybody have any of these things left? If I were at an El Cap anchor, and had to replace a couple old 1/4-inchers, how would people feel about one 3/8" bolt, and one 5/16" buttonhead, were such a critter still available?”
Pete, I’ve got a few of the original Rawls hidden away, but am saving them. Why would you want to replace a non-stainless quarter-incher with another non-stainless bolt if it is at a belay that needs to be upgraded? Why not put in a stainless 5-piece that is stronger, will last longer, and is easier to remove for future replacement?
Rick D – PLEASE don’t use the Fixe 8mm buttonheads!!!!!!!!! They are total crap, no matter what size hole you drill, no matter what kind of rock. Totally BOGUS!!! Please re-read what Greg B wrote above. The only thing those bolts are good for is (soft) shrapnel!!!
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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May 11, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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....who cares, i still have a small stash of Rawls
muahahhahahahhahahhaahaha
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 11, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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Well, you apparently cared enough to post a link and pull out your calculator! Thanks for your understanding.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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May 11, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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Please don't go and use 8mm bolts in 5/16th holes. Tolerances matter and the performance is rated for the bolt being put in the correct size hole. Just don't do it.
Yes you can still get 5/16th SS buttonheads...I think Powers sells em.
kev
Mucci - don't you have a few?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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[quote="Bryan Law"]"Pete, I’ve got a few of the original Rawls hidden away, but am saving them. Why would you want to replace a non-stainless quarter-incher with another non-stainless bolt if it is at a belay that needs to be upgraded? Why not put in a stainless 5-piece that is stronger, will last longer, and is easier to remove for future replacement?"[/quote]
Hey Bryan,
Long time, no share of O.E., eh? Where the heck have you been hiding, anyway? Coming to the bridge this spring?
The answer to your question is that placing a five-piece 3/8-incher requires a huge amount of hand drilling! And on a big wall this can add up to huge amounts of time and effort. How do you feel about the shorter stud-type stainless 3/8-inchers?
I ask about the 5/16 buttonheads because the ones on Bad Seed were still so bomber. In fact, BITD there was an article in one of the rags by Duane Raleigh praising the 5/16.
Thoughts?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Chief - they are not stainless so they will rust.
Also, they are so strong that instead of compressing when you pound them in, they will just carve slots into soft to medium rock - I've seen this at Pinnacles, Red Rocks, and grainy granite.
And of course even 3/8" buttonheads will be subject to freeze/thaw cycling which will reduce their strength over time - although this is much more important in high altitude south-facing stuff (TONS of freeze/thaw cycles per year) than most places.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 11, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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I have loads of 1/4 rawl drive in 1" and 1.5" (or whatever the longer one is)
Saving them too, for when I am weak :)
I can attest to the 5/16ths being bomber if correctly placed. Clint/Greg's comment on pulling then hammering back and forth is the only way I have ever pulled a 5.16ths without damaging the rock.
I just rap on by when I see those, but most you see out there are old style not fixe's 8mm. Slightly different but man what a difference a bit makes.
Strider has a picture of a placement that straight up buckled on him (good photo of what the Fixe rawl drives do when you go to place them)
Tork has pulled some 5/16ths at parkline, bent the fork something fierce but no damage to the rock. It did look like a PITA.
What type of rivet is on all of those column routes? Nanook?
Mucci
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 12, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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Just read this thread in its entirety after briefly skimming it a few days ago… Hadn’t read the entire thread when I replied to Pete’s question. Yeah, some really great info here and again, Greg proves why he is the director of the ASCA. Or is that vice versa? ;)
“I NEVER re-drill the original hole!
I always drill fresh holes for the new bolts as the old one may be compromised, enlarged etc.”
I read your later responses and I hear you on a lot of that, Chief – you can only do what you can do, based on what you’re dealing with, but… Ahhhhhhhh!!!! Those words still make me cringe! I most certainly agree with what Clint, Llewelyn, Greg, Paul, et al have said about reusing the original hole. A new hole is always a last resort!
Chief, which buttonhead bolts (exactly) are you referring to? Based on Greg’s response I assume split-shaft carbon steel. Yeah, what Greg said… again. I’ve got a collection of carbon steel 3/8” fatty bolts – both buttonhead and thread-head split-shaft. I would hate to place one again, unless it was for some stupid one-time purpose and I had a mini-sledgehammer. Maybe the foundation on someone’s house… Hey, any of you remember the first bolt on that direct start to Zodiac that you all are so fond of? That’s a 3/8” thread-head split-shaft and man oh man… it required like a million hits with a Yo hammer to get the darn thing seated. Don’t know how you’d ever pull it cleanly.
Nanook has replaced original 1/4” rivets with 3/8” stainless Spike buttonheads without a hanger on wall routes (link to Spike bolts found 5 posts above…). For both ethical and practical reasons, I dislike these large Spike “rivets.” But all of that talk can be found in past threads. Where’s Mad Bolter’s Wings when you need ‘em? In testing, I found the 1/4” versions of the stainless Spike buttonheads to be about as good as trying to stick my pinky finger into the hole to hang from… Seriously, they go in like butter and pop right back out with a slight funkness test. YIKES!!!! Not for climbing.
Chief, when you say that rock damage is increased when you are trying to “funk” the rusty 5-piece cone out of a hole in less than perfect rock, do you mean that the outer “layer” of the surface of the rock craters/blows out around the hole as the cone is freed? I’d be psyched to meet up to help out with your Eastside endeavors and to “talk shop.” Thanks for your efforts out there, Chief! Looking forward to clipping some half-inch stainless! Dreamy!
Klaus and I placed both the original Rawl 5/16” buttonheads and the 8mm Fixe buttonheads on Cataclysmic Megasheer on the South Face of HD. After placing the two different bolts into the same rock type again and again, we quickly realized that one was dramatically inferior to the other. I am bummed that we used those Fixe buttonheads, which certainly need to be replaced way sooner than later. Having learned by experience, I strongly suggest again that these 8mm Fixe bolts should not be used, ever, anywhere.
Pete, what you are basically saying is that you want to place 5/16” buttonheads instead of 3/8” 5-piece bolts because the 5/16” bolt is an easier shortcut. And since when have you been in a huge hurry on a wall and worried about time? :)
You will have a lot more problems with the bit binding if you are drilling a 1/4” hole out to 5/16”, rather than drilling the 1/4” hole out to 3/8”. And once you get to the bottom of a 1/4” x 1 1/2” hole with a 3/8” bit, there really isn’t too much more drilling until you’ve got a 2 1/4” deep hole for a stainless 5-piece. Yeah, it takes a little more effort, but isn’t that what wall climbing is all about? Wouldn’t it be best to just do it right in the first place? Isn’t El Cap worth it?
Any type of wedge/stud bolt is a poor choice for a bolt, in my opinion, mainly because they cannot be pulled for replacement. Of course stainless is better than carbon steel for longevity, but a stainless bolt will still need to be replaced at some point. Another problem with the wedge/stud-type bolt is that it allows the “shortcutter” to short-drill the hole, which then leaves the threaded stud of the bolt sticking out way too far – you (plural) know who you are!!! :) Then you’ve got something to catch on in the event of a fall and something sharp protruding from the rock. Wasn’t there an accident on… maybe the Nose a while back, involving a rope cut over threads on a bolt??? Werner?
The Rawl 5/16” buttonhead is a good bolt, but these days I see it more as a backcountry bolt that is great for on-lead drilling while free climbing (stance, etc.) when you want something more bomber than a 1/4”er but don’t have the stance, etc. for a 3/8”. As you have seen on Bad Seed, the 5/16” buttonhead can be a good option on the FA, but if we are replacing existing bolts, I strongly feel that it should be done right in the first place. Why take an intermediate step in bolt progression out of laziness, especially if it means that the 5/16” hole will be more difficult to drill out during bolt replacement, compared to drilling the original 1/4” hole out to 3/8”? Isn’t El Cap worth it?
Bridge? Isn’t that what my grandmother used to play? When are you going to come up to Tuolumne for some free climbing on some of the best rock on the planet? :) Cheers, ya crazy crab-lover…
“And, that zinc plated bolt/stainless hanger combo is SUPER common. Anyone?”
That’s what I have been installing on my new routes in Tuolumne over the last few years – 3/8” x 1 7/8” 4-piece or x 2 1/4” 5-piece carbon steel bolts with stainless Metolius hangers, as well as a few stainless Petzl hangers. I’d use stainless 5-piece bolts if the cost wasn’t so outrageous, and plated hangers if nice ones were more readily available (don’t like the Fixe hangers too much). As Greg and I have mentioned before, one significant advantage to the 1 7/8” length 4-piece bolts (3/8”) is that there is no blue plastic sleeve on the bolt, which means that the metal sleeve projects out of the hole slightly and is easier to remove upon replacement to stainless. Only a slight amount of drilling is required to deepen a hole to 2 1/ 4” but often I just over-drill the 1 7/8” hole anyways without intending to… darn HSS drill bits…
From what I’ve seen of existing carbon steel 5-piece bolts in Tuolumne and greater Yosemite, the bolt itself may be a little (or a lot) rusty while the exposed hex-head of the bolt and stainless hanger appear clean. Greg and others, is this just a matter of the carbon (plated) steel corroding or is there a significant acceleration of bolt corrosion due to the galvanic interaction between bolt and hanger?
Mucci, not sure which rivets you refer to… 1/4” Zamac (Z-mac) nail-ins or the more recent standard, 5/16” coarse-thread, grade-5, carbon steel machine bolts?
“Z-macs”
http://www.powers.com/product_02826.html
“This anchor is not recommended for applications overhead.”
Heh...
5/16” machine bolts – I prefer the second one from the bottom, with the end chopped off to the desired length with bolt cutters. “Adjust” threaded end per rock type/hardness on a grinder. Although I have found in primitive testing in granite that well-placed machine bolt rivets can be much stronger (both in shear and in tension) than 1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonheads, machine bolt rivets are difficult to pull cleanly for eventual replacement. For modern rivets in solid granite on wall routes, I still recommend 1/4” x 1 1/2” split-shaft buttonheads (Rawl Drive bolt) with two 5/16” flat washers. 1/4” buttonheads can usually be pulled (when not too old) and the hole reused with another 1/4” buttonhead.
Mike. knows the gig on the two washers… I’ve typed enough for now…
Pardon my rambling and thread drift to other diameters than 5/16” and cheers to all of you fellow bolt-heads!!!………
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 12, 2010 - 03:29am PT
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From what I’ve seen of existing carbon steel 5-piece bolts in Tuolumne and greater Yosemite, the bolt itself may be a little (or a lot) rusty while the exposed hex-head of the bolt and stainless hanger appear clean. Greg and others, is this just a matter of the carbon (plated) steel corroding or is there a significant acceleration of bolt corrosion due to the galvanic interaction between bolt and hanger?
Just plain rust, not galvanic corrosion. For most cases in drier climates like we are talking about, it would make no difference to have plated vs. stainless hanger - seeping limestone being the big exception. There's a chance that water streaks might have electrolytes collecting from soil runoff, moss, lichen, etc, and you could see it on granite, but it's not likely unless you go to wetter climates.
You get rusting in the hole with any rock type that is not porous - water simply pools in the hole (even on vertical/slightly overhung rock) and you get more rust. I've seen really significant rusting (threads on 5-pieces beginning to disintegrate) at Owens for 10-year old bolts - and then other bolts nearby only had minor rust. For soft sandstone and other porous rock, the water evaporates out through the rock and you don't get as much rusting. Silicone used on the bolt top accelerates rusting in the hole by trapping water in the hole.
And Pete - the extra bit binding you would get expanding a 1/4" hole to 5/16" instead of 3/8" would negate the advantage of the smaller bolt. You'd have the 3/8" in the rock in the same time and your wrist wouldn't be so sore from trying to free the 5/16" bit which would constantly get stuck.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 12, 2010 - 03:37am PT
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Thanks, Greg.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 12, 2010 - 03:45am PT
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Mineralz-
No the ones I saw on SQ looked like a 3/8 buttonhead (round and large)
Great info here as usual, got the heavy hitters of bolting chiming in.
Why the 2 washers? I understand the application with rivet/nut hanger but if using a 1" button and 1 washer, you could in theory just place a arrow under the washer when placing the bolt. That way there is a sufficient space between rock/washer to prevent any issues.
any thoughts? Just thought with a smaller bolt, I would want to maximize the depth.
Thanks for the information, Very solid!
Mucci
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 05:20am PT
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Okay, I said that I would report the results after testing the slide hammer method of removal. Sacrificed a few of my 5/16" Rawl Drive "buttonheads" for the testing in Baja granite.
The slide hammer worked almost as expected. It did the job, though with some effort. It would be laborious to carry it to the top of a route and rappel with it, particularly after adding a second 2.5 lb. plate for the approx. 6 lb. hammer. It is rather awkward to use, even while standing on flat ground.
Hammering the "tuning fork" under the bolt hanger was the most difficult part. (The tuning fork end of the slide hammer is the cut-off end of a Vaughan "SuperBar").
Placing the fork below the bolt, with the two prongs pointing upward allowed the fork to fall out, due to gravity, after each hit of the slide hammer. That situation was solved by placing the fork with prongs pointing down, and placing slight leverage on the pipe to maintain some tension.
Placing my hand with thumb pointed toward the bolt was much more comfortable for hammering, as the meaty part of the hand absorbs the shock. The bolt was fully extracted with 8 to 10 hammer blows.
As an experiment, this was an interesting project. As for the tool, I'd give it a grade of D+.
Yes, a slide hammer will remove a 5/16" buttonhead, however, it is a heavy and redundant piece of specialized equipment in the arsenal.
A combination of large "tuning forks" will perform more efficiently than a slide hammer.
Driving the bigger tuning forks under a 5/16" bolt takes some serious hammering. Rather than using a climbing hammer, a 2 or 3 lb. sledge (aka: engineer's hammer) will make the job much easier.
The cut-off end of a Vaughan SuperBar seems to be a good tool for the initial 1/4" of extraction. It is slotted to 5/16". The slot is flared wider at the tip to ensure wrapping around the bolt. If misaligned slightly, it will guide into proper position. Using a grinder, the angle of the chisel end is made more acute and thinner. That makes it easier to drive under the bolt hanger, with less force to do the job. The outer corners of the chisel tip are angled and rounded to minimize sharp edges gouging the rock.
The modified 1" cold chisel can be used as the first and only tuning fork, or as a second tool, after the intial loosening with the SuperBar.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 06:04am PT
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Part two of my testing was to address my questions about the feasibility of using a puller to remove 5/16" Rawl Drives.
My questions were: "Can a 5/16" Rawl Drive be removed by pulling on the hanger?" and "Will the sheetmetal hanger fail or shear around the head of the bolt before the bolt pulls out?"
I wanted some answers before attempting to design a puller.
Far from a laboratory experiment, I had some crude tools for the job: a Warn 12,000 lb. winch.
Placed a new 1/4" Rawl Drive on a rusty, used Leeper hanger.
A flick of the toggle switch and it popped right out, without tearing the sheetmetal hanger. I used the Leeper because it appears to be the thinnest/weakest of hangers.
The 5/16" Rawl Drive and a thicker "Lucky" brand plated steel hanger came out as a unit. The hanger shows some stretching around the bolt hole. (I'm happy to note that the 7,000 lb. van slid forward a few inches before the bolt pulled out, inspiring some confidence in those 5/16" bolts).
My questions were only partially answered. I lacked an old Leeper or SMC hanger (the old thin plated type) with a 3/8" hole for testing on a 5/16" bolt. It appears that a puller will work for a 5/16" Rawl Drive on a modern hanger. A puller might work on a 5/16" Rawl Drive with a weaker/old style hanger.
That is enough info to proceed with building and testing a puller. If successful, a puller should offer the advantages of easy hammerless operation with little exertion. If designed correctly, it should not gouge the rock.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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May 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Minerals, thanks for all the info in your post. I had my own small cringe, though, at the following words:
That’s what I have been installing on my new routes in Tuolumne over the last few years – 3/8” x 1 7/8” 4-piece or x 2 1/4” 5-piece carbon steel bolts with stainless Metolius hangers, as well as a few stainless Petzl hangers. I’d use stainless 5-piece bolts if the cost wasn’t so outrageous...
I realize that they are very expensive, but using your logic from the same post (not replacing 1/4" with 5/16" because the 5/16" will have to be replaced later)- why create more work for later? At a savings of a couple bucks per bolt, some ASCA or other volunteer will, sometime in the future, spend a whole day accessing and replacing, say a 10 bolt route. That same person's time is worth at least $10 bucks/ hour so the opportunity cost of around $100 bucks is lost to that route. Why not just do it proud in the first place. Isn't Tuolumne worth it? :)
I work in the precast industry and use all kinds of anchors for every job we do- thus have some good deals going with the major hardware manufacturers because of the volume we buy. Email me and I'll see what price I can get you for the SS Powers bolts. Maybe split the cost with your partners in crime or just make them pay everything in exchange for you leading the scary sections.
Bob
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 12, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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Thanks Bryan and Greg. 3/8" it shall be.
Greg, I think I'm more or less fully stocked. When I arrive, I'll go through my inventory, and bug you if I need anything else.
The plan is Pacemaker.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 22, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Mucci, the 3/8” buttonheads on SQ are the Spike buttonheads that I mentioned earlier and posted a link to. That’s one of Nanuke’s trademarks…
The two washers on the 1/4” buttonhead act as a retainer for the keyhole hanger or wire rivet hanger while the rivet is clipped. When it is time to pull and replace the quarter-incher, the tuning fork can be placed between the two washers. The bottom washer acts as a spacer and helps to protect the rock from the tuning fork and the top washer prevents the head of the bolt from stripping, while driving the tuning fork.
“(I'm happy to note that the 7,000 lb. van slid forward a few inches before the bolt pulled out, inspiring some confidence in those 5/16" bolts).”
WOW!!! Good stuff, Juan! Thanks for posting. Those plated Lucky hangers are definitely heavier and more beefy than the stainless SMC hangers. I’ve been using some with 1/4”ers but the weight adds up with a bunch of ‘em.
Chief, I suppose I’m spoiled by bulletproof Cathedral Peak granodiorite, where it’s tough to mess up a hole while pulling a bolt. You are using power (legally) to replace bolts, right? Why not try to drill the cone out with power, rather than try to funk it out and have the rock blow out? Is this a possibility?
Thanks for the invite; I should be down your way later this month, and hope to hit up Clark for at least a day or two. Do the Benton Crags need any replacement work?
Cragnshag, yeah, in some ways, you’ve got me there.
From this thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1047623&msg=1047965#msg1047965
“I use 316 SS wedgies almost exclusively. Sure you can't replace them in the same hole, but the 316 is so damn resistant to corrosion (in non-chloride enviroments like the Sierras) that I'm pretty sure that they will outlast mankind's brief appearance on this planet.
Thing is, I do all my drilling ground up by hand- so it is tough to stand there another 5 minutes to make a hole deep enough for a 5-piece (OK sometimes I have a really good stance and I'm just being lazy!). Now if someone manufactured a 5-piece that was 1.75" long AND 316 SS, then I might switch.
At this moment, the wedgies work the best for me. My compromise is in using 316 SS over 304/ 18-8 SS such that future replacement may be a moot point anyway. I pay almost twice as much for the 316 ($1.85 vs $1.00) for 3/8" dia shorties. Still a good price though since I bulk order them through the company I work for (precast concrete). And I get an ICBO report rated anchor to boot.”
So maybe it was my comment about wedge bolts above? I still disagree with you on wedge bolts vs. 5-piece bolts. I would much rather place a carbon steel 4-piece bolt that eventually needs to be replaced with stainless, than use a stainless wedge bolt in the first place that can never be pulled. This is part of the reason why The Chief has to drill new holes on the Eastside rock – wedge bolts.
And basically what you say above is just what Pete said earlier… you don’t want to spend the extra time drilling from a stance to get that 2 1/4” bolt in, and thus use shorty wedge bolts? And to follow this same logic, why are you settling for non-removable stainless wedge bolts when, for just “a couple bucks per bolt” you could be placing a stainless 5-piece that can be removed?
I have lots of time to place and replace bolts so it doesn’t bother me at all to have to return to my routes for more maintenance. In fact, I enjoy it. If I didn’t care about the state of the bolts on my routes, I would just leave all of the 1/4”ers that I originally place and say… “Here ya go! Have fun!” But I take the time to go back and replace those 1/4”ers until they are all gone.
Yes, I should use stainless in the first place.
According to Nate D’s link in this thread…
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=965840&msg=966748#msg966748
…the carbon steel 3/8” x 1 7/8” bolts go for $0.82 each while the stainless 2 1/4” versions go for $4.60 each. That difference is more than “a couple bucks per bolt.”
Splitting the cost with my partners in crime? That wouldn’t work, as I have been the one supplying the bolts that THEY place… for free…
I guess we will both continue to cringe.
Thanks, Pete. Are you going to replace the rivets with 1/4” buttonheads?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Roger Brown replaced the 5/16" bolts on Rum, Sodomy and The Lash on May 14.
His approach on a route with 5/16" bolts is to pull one of them, and see how strong it is. If the bolt is hard to pull, he just replaces the one bolt he pulled. If the bolt is easy to pull, he replaces all of them.
The rock on Rum, Sodomy and The Lash is somewhat grainy, and the first bolt pulled fairly easily, so he replaced all of them. Roger also pulled and replaced the anchor bolts. The highest protection bolt was 1/4", so Roger was not sure if it was original. We checked with Norman Boles, and he said it was original (due to a broken 5/16" bit), so Roger will replace that bolt also.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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I do new routes with Bob, and I'm fine with the 316 SS wedge bolts. I use the 304 SS wedge bolts for my own stuff, they cost about $1 each when bought with a good deal. Considering how good many of the 1/4" are after 34 years, I think the 316 SS 3/8" will be good for 200+ years. Fine for the obscure routes we are doing, I think.
If it was for a well-used hauling anchor on El Capitan, then the bolts may get worn/deformed and may need to be replaced on a regular basis. Although that is a slightly different application, where stiffer non-SS bolts hold up better.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 22, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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200+ years? Seriously, Clint? I am thinking more like 50 to 100 years. But even so, regardless of whatever number sounds right, a new hole will still need to be drilled. Where does it end?
I am probably just wasting my time here…
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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200+ for the 316. But it's a fairly wild guess.
It would be nice to make a real calculation on the failure time.
Still, Bob pays extra for the 316 instead of the 304. Also 316 chain and quicklinks.
More practically, I think probably nobody will ever repeat the new routes we are doing. They have long approaches, and there are 2000+ routes that are closer and better.
Although if we were committed to this concept, we would use removable bolts like the Fixe Triplex and leave the routes with no bolts at all.
So probably the real thought is that a few of our friends might do the routes in the next 10 years, and other people might look to see where our bolts are, so they can do other new routes of their own nearby.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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May 22, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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I should be climbing today... but instead I'm in front of my computer!
Minerals- Believe it or not I do have longevity in mind. 316 SS is a highly stable and inert material. In otherwords it's not-biodegradable in the common sense. Water, O2, and time are not enough to cause section loss in stainless bolts. You'll need some chloride if you want anything to happen- and salt is in short supply in the Sierra. I'm guessing the biggest threat to the bolts will be exfoliation of the rock itself.
So I don't foresee anyone needing to drill a new hole to replace any of my 316 SS wedgies. Not in 200 years, not in 500 years. Just clip the thing and keep climbing. Of course this assumes that people in the future want to hike a long way to climb an obscure route!
All this talk of removing old bolts has got me thinking about ways to test in-situ carbon wedgies. My buddy Banquo has a hydraulic ram and load cell in his garage. If we convert the load cell to run on 6 volts DC, then the whole system is portable. Basically you screw the jig onto the stud and then pump the ram (that does't quite sound right, does it?). You can pull directly outward on the bolt to say 2500 lbs tension- about half the inelastic yeild strength. If the bolt holds, then it's good. Put the hanger back on and keep climbing. If it pulls, and the source of failure was loss of section of the cone sleeve, then you have a clean hole to put in another bolt.
I wouldn't want to test it much more than 2500 lbs due to the strain hardening that would occur at the point of inelastic yielding. The strain hardened area would be more brittle and more susceptable to corrsion than the surrounding metal.
This same set up could be used to test my own SS wedgies in 200 years.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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Early in this thread, the idea of using a claw hammer as tuning fork was proposed.
Striking two hammers head-to-head is a bad idea (hardened steel chips flying).
Maybe not as bad if one is a less hardened piton hammer, but still.....
I'd be extra careful striking roto hammer tool steel also.
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CascadeOtto
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 24, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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Ksolem - I like the looks of your prybar tool. What brand is it? Did it come with the handle/hand protector?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 24, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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As far as the longevity of stainless stud/wedge bolts - I always assumed that over long time periods in fairly dry climates they would be done in by mechanical failure instead of corrosion. Does anyone know more about work fatigue - referenced in Duane Raleigh's old Climbing article on mechanical bolts:
Because their exterior threads make them prone to work fatigue, wedge bolts aren't nearly as dependable as solidhead sleeve bolts. For that reason if you must use wedge bolts consider 1/2inch diameter ones, which still fit through a 1/2 inch Petzl Coeur bolt hanger, and are far more resilient than the 3/8inch size.
[side note - the Petzl Coeur hanger is made in 12mm which just barely fits the head of a 1/2" stud/wedge bolt since the threaded heads are actually slightly less than stated diameter - if you want true 1/2" holes, Fixe now makes 13mm hole hangers]
I don't know much about the long term stresses on a wedge bolt sitting in the rock forever, but I would assume freeze/thaw cycles and heating/cooling of the bolt vs rock would apply some sort of varying forces against the bolt.
Anyone?
Also for the serious chemisty/metallurgy geeks - anyone know what the common pollution byproducts ("acid rain" etc) are in the Sierra, and if they have effects on 304 or 316ss? Lichen and soil byproducts? I would assume that basically no one has thought about these kind of issues over extreme time periods (100 years plus)...
edit: oh yeah, here's the Raleigh article:
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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May 26, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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3 for 3 baby! Also pulled this 3/8ths Star Drive
Used a 1/4" fork and a couple of LAs
Splits the sh#t out of the fork but I just beat it back, file the tips.... as good as new.
I bought about a dozen 5/16" from Fixe for new routes but I am 0 for 3 placing those peices of sh#t, bend every time.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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My first prototype of a new puller was a partial success. That's a spin on saying it failed to pull a newly placed 5/16" bottonhead. It easily pulled a 1/4" buttonhead, and met the goals for ease of operation. The device proved to be self-centering and stable. Once hooked up to the hanger, it could be operated with one hand.
The failure occurred while attempting to extract a freshly placed 5/16" buttonhead. Wow, those bolts continue to amaze me with their pullout strength! I had to lean into it with both arms to turn the 12" hand crank. Still, it wasn't budging. Then the 1/2" (x 13 coarse thread) Grade 2 tap bolt snapped off. The experiment came to a "grinding" halt.
I'm having difficulty locating a long 1/2" Grade 5 or Grade 8 tap (fully threaded) bolt. As soon as I can get my hands on one, I will weld it to the handle and try again. A Grade 8 bolt should have more than double the strength of a Grade 2.
If a hardened bolt fails, then a 5/8" or 3/4" bolt and coupling nut will be needed. That will increase the size and weight of the device. I'm fairly convinced that the idea is sound. I'm not an engineer, so it will take a few iterations to get it right, shaving weight and bulk, and simplifying the design so that it can be easily duplicated by others.
The complicated stabilizing legs will likely be replaced with something welded directly to the main square-tube body.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jun 26, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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Hey JM,
McMaster-Carr has anything and everything: www.mcmaster.com
Plenty of grade 8 tap bolts in longer lengths, no problem. 1/2", 5/8" 3/4", etc.
My 2 cents:
Since you broke a 1/2" dia bolt, it's probably best to go with 3/4" dia regardless of grade. You'll want the bolt to work after many cycles- a 1/2" dia grade 8 may work for a while, but will suffer from fatigue and strain hardening due to service loading closer to yield strength. With a 3/4" dia grade 8 you should be worry free (of course you'll have to make a new jig to fit the larger bolt). Good news is if you get the 3/4" x 16 threads per inch you'll get more effective leverage per crank arm rotation (20% more) than the 1/2" dia x 13 tpi. And the larger circumference of the threads on the 3/4" bolt (and the longer associated coupling nut) means less localized stress on the threads themselves- prolonging life of the bolt and nut.
part # 92620A881 3/4" x 6" tap bolt grade 8 (16 tpi) $9 ($8 for the 5")
part # 90977A220 3/4" coupling nut 2 1/4" long grade 5 (16 tpi) $7
I buy several hundred of these per year (the 10 tpi version) for use in GFRC connection hardware (I get them for about $2 apiece from a bulk supplier!)
or if you want to go 5/8":
part # 92620A315 5/8" x 5" tap bolt grade 8 (18 tpi) $11
part # 90977A210 5/8" coupling nut 2 1/8" long grade 5 (18 tpi) $5
Be carefull welding the coupling nuts- I've seen slight heat warpage welding 2" long 3/16" fillets on 3/4" couplers. The result was the bolt was a bitch to turn in the nut- and the last thing you want is any extra friction in the system. You may even want to order a couple extra couplers in case this happens. In a typical connection hardware production run, welded 3/4" couplers (to A36 mild steel) we usually get 60% tight turning (ie need a wrench to turn) 35% EZ turning, and 5% almost stuck (need to tap the threads). I'm not sure what the weld shop does to prevent warpage- I think they try to keep the heat to a minimum?
Happy bolt yanking. That's a great gizmo you've got there! Send some pics of the next bolt pull.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 26, 2010 - 03:51am PT
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Hey Cragnshag,
Thanks for doing my homework! A frustrating 1/2 hour of searching turned up nothing.
And thanks for the great advice. No doubt you're right about upgrading to 5/8" or 3/4". Will have to take some measurements to be certain, but I think I can cut the top off, insert a 5/8" coupling nut, and weld the top back on easy enough. There may not be enough clearance for a 3/4" coupling nut, in which case the next larger square-tube size will be required.
I thought about the use of fine threads for the reason you described. Coarse threaded coupling nuts and Grade 2 tap bolts were readily available, so I went with that. With your parts source, a switch to fine thread will be made.
You're right about the warpage on the coupling nut. I must have been in the "5% almost stuck" category despite alternating MIG tack welds on each side. Chasing the threads with a tap solved the problem. Perhaps TIG would control heat better.
Supertopo never ceases to amaze me. There is always an expert here on the most obscure of topics. I never expected someone with expertise at welding coupling nuts!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 26, 2010 - 04:40am PT
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Good stuff, Juan and Bob!
Pretty nice looking puller, Juan.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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Man, you guys stay up late!
Hey Juan- I just remembered a trick the guys use when welding the couplers-before welding, spin the coupler onto to the middle of a long tap bolt. The bolt acts as a heat sink, giving the heat a place to go.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Juan Maderita
LOL what an awesome arsenal of tools you've got there.
Some nice improvisions too.
You always the man .....
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Jun 26, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Weld_it should apprentice to you, JM.
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Jun 27, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Cragnshag-
There are some new load cells in the garage. The one in the photos is meant for testing bolts. My readouts will work fine on 12 volts.
My old structural engineering prof always told me that fine threads don't provide any more tension than coarse for the same torque. Coarse threads might be better since they don't damage as easily.
For good, clean, steel threads he always said that test data indicated the correct torque was:
Torq = (0.2) x (tension) x (bolt diameter)
T=0.2FD
Hydraulics might be the way to go, my little ram in your photo combined with a smaller pump.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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Nice avatar Banquo. I could use a maple bar right about now!
Yes, let's make a portable version of your hydraulic puller. I can bring a couple sections of HSS from the yard for starters. I would be curious to see the strength of old 3/8" stud bolts, pulled in direct tension (assuming the threaded ends are still usable). Gotta make sure the ram isn't too hard to push since we'll be hanging off the side of a cliff...
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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May 24, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
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Juan,
I made 4 tuning forks using your ideas. 2 from the Bosch tile chisels. I like those the best:-)
Thanks,
Roger
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 24, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
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TORK pulls 5/16ths consistanly with a standard (bent tuning fork).
I ALWAYS drill out the hole to 3/8ths provided it is a 1/4", Although I hand drill everything.
Cheif, you are using a powerdrill correct?
There is absolutely no reason not to drill out any hole that has had the bolt removed. Just put in a 1/2". Comments on rock integrity are not warrented when you are using a machine.
If your not using the same bolt location your just adding to the problem MOST rebolters are attempting to eradicate....
MORE HOLES.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Dec 17, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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Bump for a cool thread!
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dec 17, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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Most of the ones I have pulled over the last couple seasons have been short. Like inch and a quarter. A couple every season just pop right out. Reaming out the hole with a power drill is pretty much a crap shoot and may be the issue. Bad hole=bad bolt. Good hole=good bolt. Most 5/16 I have pulled have been bomber, but you just don't know till you try pulling them. I made a hand reaming tool last off-season that reames the hole without any further drilling. Binding and chipping that 3/8 bit is now a thing of the past, mostly:-) I think the problem of spalling out the hole may be a thing of the past also. Been working on new toys for next season that just may do the trick. But..... most of the stuff I made last off-season turned out to be worthless.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 17, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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Cool Roger, if you get a system dialed, let's head to E Cottage (Disintegration/The Bulge, Orange Plasma, maybe one other) and get those 5/16" replaced. Several loose hangers, although I think it's rock breaking out from under the (good stainless) SMCs. Those 5/16" buttonheads have probably had more falls than every other 5/16" in Tuolumne combined.
Royal Flush on Medlicott too. Rusty buttonheads, Leeper hangers, water streak. Fair number of 1/4" nearby as well.
Tons down at Courtright and elsewhere which mostly seem totally bomber (for now)...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Bump for all the hard work and good ideas!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Roger has an improved reamer and used it this summer when replacing many 5/16" on Elephant Rock right of Sky. He said it works very well.
(The reamer widens the 5/16" x 1.5" hole to 3/8" diameter, then you
can drill it deeper without the big problem with the bit binding in a 5/16" hole).
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