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Sunken
Trad climber
Sweden
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 11, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Please give us feedback on this tree person party on a big wall. Our main consern is if its ok that two persons jumar at the same time (different ropes) as the pig is getting hauld, all in the same anchor. And the main reason why we choose this system is that we dont have enough gear to be spread on two pitches at the same time.
1. The leader (climber #1) climbs a pitch having a zipline with him. On the zipline hangs the haul rope and a second climbing rope.
2. The leader sets up the two climbing ropes and the haul rope in the anchor for climber #2 and #3 to jumar up on.
3. The leader starts to haul while climber #2 jumars up on the lead rope and cleans the pitch (unless its a travers, then he leavs som equipment). Climber #3 jumars up to the stand at the same time as climber #2 is jumaring. So the leader (climber #1) is hauling at the same time (in the same anchor) as climber # 2 and 3 jumars.
4. When climber #2 arrives at the anchor he starts leading the next pitch. And climber #1 belays him. If climber #1 is'nt finished with the haul climber #3 can take over when he arrives at the anchor.
And yes, we know we most likely will die
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 11, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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When I have done it the leader fixed the hauline and the second guy immediately and quickly went up the haul line. In order to either switch leads or get the leader going again fast. 3rd took care of taking down the anchor releasing the bags and cleaning while second began hauling after leader got going. Other than short fixing it seemed the most efficient way to keep someone leading almost all the time.
3 is my favorite way to do a multiday wall. The social dynamic is generally fun, Nice to have someone to hang out with at the belay on long pitches and if efficient can be faster than 2.
The leader does not drag the 2nd lead rope , that is the job of the guy ascending the fixed haul line. Once the cleaner got to the belay he could send the haul line and more rack up if needed on a tag line. SO many good things about this style.. such as cleaner can assist unsticking haulbags. Especially if he keeps attached to a tagline for the haulbag.
I'm just an ole gumby wall climber who never was really good. There are some real hardcorp folks on here who probably have slicker systems
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 11, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
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I've climbed as climbski2 describes above, and liked it. We went faster than we could have in any permutation of two of us, and had the other advantages climbski2 described. Its only downsides were that we needed essentially a double rack, because so many pitches needed the same gear as the pitch being cleaned, and one bivy was rather crowded (this was in the days before portaledges).'
John
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 11, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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The limiting factor is waiting for climber #3 to arrive with gear needed for the next pitch. I suggest planning on what's needed for the beginning of the next pitch and either backcleaning and bringing it, or pulling it up on the tag line from #3. Even having enough gear for the first 5-10 meters get's the leader working on the next pitch while #3 finishes cleaning the pitch below, then the leader can tag line up the rest of the rack. Use reversed and opposed biners when hauling the rack up! Don't want to lose the whole rack!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 11, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
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As JEleazarian mentioned we generally took a near double rack to avoid delays. However I think one could perfect it and trim down carefully. Plus if you misjudge it ..well it's just a minor delay (if the cleaner is any good), not the end of the world.
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Sunken
Trad climber
Sweden
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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Is it a big "No No" if both climbers that follows jumars at the same time as the pig is hauld?
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
FishProducts.com
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Aug 11, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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Try this:
THREE PERSON TECHNIQUE:
This is probably the most asked question we get. And with good reason. Climbing walls with three people has a lot of advantages, including speed, relative workload, and gives you somebody besides the leader to yell at while belaying. In the basic form, you will have someone out on lead, someone cleaning the pitch and someone belaying and if possible, hauling. All this is going on simultaneously, so as you can see, things will happen pretty fast if everyone does their part .
The various methods:
Method #1 ( you need: a static haul line, a zip line, 2 cordalettes or 15ft. sections of 7-9mm rope, and 2 lead lines)
The leader (#1) goes out on lead with (a) the lead line, and (b) the zip line. The zip line can be a light rope like a 7mm or 9mm. The pitch is lead, and the leader sets up the anchor with the cordalette and then secures the lead line (a) to one end of the anchor. The leader (#1) now pulls up the zip line. Attached to the zip line is the real haul line that is ideally a static cord (c) and the next lead line (d) attached to the next leader #2. The leader #1 then secures the next lead line (d) and the haul line and tells leader # 2 to Jumar on up to the station on the haul line, with the lead line (d) acting as a safety from above. While leader #2 is Jumaring, the leader #1 sets up the haul on the slack between the hauling device and the anchor point #2 is Jumaring from. Once leader #2 gets to the station he weights the haul line to free the bags from the station below. Once the bags are free, the leader #2 takes all the rack left and heads out on lead, with the zip line (b) attached to his harness. Leader #1 is belaying leader #2, the bags are hanging free waiting for the Cleaner (#3) to assist in the hauling, and the cleaning of the last pitch is underway. After cleaning the pitch, leader #1 and the cleaner (#3) haul the bags and eventually secure them at the station.When leader #2 has reached the anchor, he will set up the anchor with a cordalette and then haul up the zip line. Attached to the zip line is the real haul line, and the rope that #3 will lead on, the one that was clipped to one end of the anchor. Then, #3 can Jumar the static haul line (which can already be set up to haul, but a loop has been taken and clipped directly into the anchor as not to Jumar on the hauling device) while top anchored by his soon to be lead line. He can tie off on this line from above as needed for added safety while Jumaring the haul line. Once at the station, the #3 leader helps get the haul bag off the station below and then goes out on lead with the zip line attached to his harness. Leader #1 now starts cleaning the pitch and will help haul the bags when he gets to the upper station. This method is continued all the way up the wall.
The fatal flaw with this #1 method is the extensive use of cordalettes. Each anchor must be set up real clean in order to free up the various lead lines at the given time. All of the free Jumar lines must be able to get released from the anchor at will. This takes planning and meticulous attention to the layering of the anchor. It can be done, but there is an easier way.
Method #2:
You will need all of the above but skip the cordalettes and take 1 extra lead line.
This is the method I prefer and is easier to manage than method #1. All the techniques are the same as the above except for a few things. At the anchors, you will set them up using all the available slack in your lead line. This gives you room to move around at the anchor to haul and dodge big blocks from above. When you haul up the zip line, the real haul line will be attached, along with a free lead line that should be attached to the next leader. The next leader Jumars the haul line with this free lead line as a top anchored rope for tieing off to while Jumaring. The other lead line can be used to lower him out prior to Jumaring, and give an additional belay if he is going mental. After reaching the upper station, this line he was trailing can be clipped into the anchor and then used as a chicken line back down to the cleaner. This method give everyone the option of having a chicken line just in case of bad edges or wig sessions. Another good thing is the additional rope might come in handy if you chop a lead line or plan on fixing a long way from a "porta-city" that is a great or protected belay.
From here: http://fishproducts.com/howto/how_to.html
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/FishBigWallGear
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 11, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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Is it a big "No No" if both climbers that follows jumars at the same time as the pig is hauld?
Not unless you are belaying off hooks..at that point opinions vary.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 11, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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I like Russ/Fish's method. Especially jugging the static haul line (more efficient than jugging a dynamic lead line) while backed up by another lead line (don't have to stop and put back up knots in the rope your jugging).
For efficiency get the leader moving on the next pitch asap. The last guy to the belay can always finish hauling the bag.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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Do you really need to bring a second lead rope? Why not short fix the lead rope, and have the leader take off on the remaining lead rope? This works fine if the pitches are not too long. Or else use a 70m lead rope.
Get the third guy to jug the static haul line - FAST. Third guy becomes new leader or remains as belayer.
Important you have a long enough zipline, to connect cleaner on the bottom to belayer to leader. That way, you can get lead gear from the cleaner to the leader.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 12, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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Oh geez, make me think, eh?
Um .... the zipline is QUITE long, longer than a single pitch. This way the zipline can go from the cleaner to the belayer and up to the leader, but only once.
So no, the end of the zipline remains with the cleaner, and doesn't need to get "ghost ridden" down the haul line.
Although "ghost riding" is a fundamental arrow to keep in your Big Wall Quiver. Just remember to "set up oscillations" before you ghost ride anything down a rope, especially something heavy like a hammer to clean with or whatever.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
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PTPP, when we used the system I described above, dynamic ropes were all we had, so all three ropes (two lead lines and the hauling line) could have been lead ropes. To use the system we used requires at least two lead ropes for sure. As soon as the third person got to the belay station, he took off on the next lead (we were so used to swinging leads that it never occurred to us that leading in blocks was more efficient.)
John
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 12, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
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great website you have there mister fish
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Sunken
Trad climber
Sweden
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Ok, a lot of diffrent ways to do this. Thanks for your inputs, keep em comin.
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TLP
climber
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Aug 12, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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I'd be interested to see what the folks who have done walls in a party of 3 have to say about the hauling on the initial days. Seems to me the food, water, and wall camping gear for 3, doing a 7-day wall adds up to somewhere more than 300 lbs (figuring 3 l of water per person day). Even with a 2:1, that weight doesn't go upward when a normal sized person is trying to haul unaided. Once, when we were planning a party-of-3 wall, we figured there would need to be two rounds of hauling each pitch for at least 1-2 days. That affects number of ropes and the plan itself. Sunken, you might want to do some arithmetic, fill up a couple of bags with that weight, and try it out. Then plan accordingly.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 12, 2015 - 03:49pm PT
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It's not much of an issue with up to two people hauling and one continually leading. Never failed to get the bags to the anchor well before the lead got his pitch done.
Figure about 25lbs of water MAX per day for 3 people (1 gal each). The rest of the stuff actually being hauled should not be over 150lbs at most. One could reasonable knock off 50lbs and 6lbs/day water from that. Unless you are climbing with Pete... but hell he manages to get it to the top ...with probably twice that..ha
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TLP
climber
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Aug 12, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
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Sounds roughly right, but 25x7=175 + 150 = 325 lbs, pretty much what I said. The only way the scenarios described above have two people hauling is if the haul load isn't cut loose until somebody jugs up to the upper belay, which takes a little time, and then it isn't feasible for the leader to short fix and start soloing the next pitch until the cleaner arrives, because both haulers are fully occupied until they're done. I can visualize some ways for it to work, like somebody is just a counterweight and the other person hauls, but it seems best to bring and extra rope and do two hauls, which then gives additional flexibility for the rest of the climb. It obviously works, because people have done it. I'm just curious how they worked it out while the load was really heavy.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 12, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
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You are overthinking it and under just f'ing doing it.
The belayer hauls..it sucks the first days and may be slow.. the cleaner gets there eventually and helps if needed..the cleaner can even give a shove from below or a tug from above while cleaning
It works out. A person can haul twice their body weight or more well enough when needed. Even without the Hudon method..Course with Hudons system ..well that little dude is cheating..I swear!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
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3 liters of water/day?
I've always done it with 2.25 liters / day, except one time on the Shield when we hauled an entire haulbag of water up El Cap in cold conditions and never used it....
We didn't do walls in August or September, though (September is the Noob/crowded season).
Did them in May, October, sometimes early June.
The climbs were usually well under 7 days, too.
Never used a 2:1 or 3:1. Used body-counterweight hauling.
Also have used 2 separate bags / ropes as Mike. describes below.
Tried 3-man system once, but found it was very strenuous to jug the free hanging fixed line, with second rack and 2 ropes also on you!
Much faster to clean the pitch, with your feet touching the wall and no extra weight.
Fish describes better methods than what we tried.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 12, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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"PS edit: Clint's comment about getting flamed on the free jugs reflects my experience. Jumping on a lead after that is brutal."
That's because you guys don't know how to jug a free-hanging rope. Why? Because you are climbers, not cavers. Cavers have nothing better to do with their time than perfect their jugging systems.
For a fast and relaxing free-hanging jug, it is quick and easy to convert your inefficient arm-intensive "Yosemite jugging system" [i.e. two ascenders and two aid ladders and two daisies] into a Frog system, like cavers use. If you plan on doing a lot of steep jugging, pick yourself up a CMI ankle cam to improve your efficiency.
Here's how you do it:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/big_wall_and_aid_climbing/jugging_the_froggy_way/106076796
You'll find the bit about the ankle cam on the second page I believe. You don't have to buy a Torse harness - you can either make one with some webbing and buckles, or just throw a sling around your neck, or use a bungy cord. Instead of using a Croll ascender, you can use a regular handled jug mounted low, and turned sideways.
If you don't believe me, ask Anita how easy it is to jug a free-hanging rope this way. You guys saw the condition of her leg last year, in an external fixator after having her leg surgically lengthened. In spite of not being at full strength, she was flying up the wall using this system.
I'm an old fart, but I will happily *race* any of you young whippersnappers up 60m of free-hanging rope with the winner getting a 2-4 of choice, provided you use your crappy Yosemite system, and I get to use my Frog. ;)
If there is ever a place where you ought to know how to use a Frog system, it is while climbing a big wall in a three-man team.
Cheers, eh?
"Dr. Piton"
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