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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Apr 12, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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Great idea as soon as I have my little piece.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
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I signed on to it!
Maybe it can be protected before congress is posed to sell it off.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Apr 12, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Personally I think this is f*#king bullsh#t. It's perfect the way it is as a National Forest. Cidiots trying to change a place they visit every now and then so it's more "safe" and "preserved". We who actually live here and spend time in these woods everyday want nothing to do with more regulations.
enables citizens to walk from urban areas to an alpine paradise. For f*#ks sake.
Edit: Ha I guess Barry wants something to do with it. You're drinking the punch?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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I am wondering what MORE will be done to protect said area from NF to NM.
There is a class at REI this afternoon about this, but it is full. It would be interesting to hear what is being hoped for.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
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Copyright Sierra National Monument Project. All rights reserved
Says it all.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 12, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
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why monument? It's a recreation area. When I see monuments, I see more restrictive use by climbers. Monuments then get pushed to be Parks by senators and reps. Further adding enhancements that bring more impacts.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Monuments usually retain privileges for resource use like mining and grazing and restrict personal recreation use. Almost the entire southern sierra is park or wilderness or monument, leave a little piece of forest please!
Freakin' dumb. I'm still annoyed that part of Sequoia National Forest was turned into Sequoia National Monument. There are still cattle but now we're not allowed to snowmobile off of maintained roads. Because, you know, riding on top of snow is way worse than cows.
Arghhh
(PS. I've worked with the SNF on meadow restoration projects and I love preserving the Sierra, but this is stupid.)
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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A million bucks says they won't actually tell people what it means to transition from Forest to Monument, they will just throw out terms like "protect nature" and "preservation."
Do your research people.
Also, that article they linked to about the economic benefit of National Monuments is stupid because it's already a National Forest that has the same benefits and then some.
Sorry about the rants, I consider myself an environmentalist so when I see groups misinforming people in the name of the environment to accomplish their agenda it makes me mad. Reminds me of the letter I got from the Sierra Club asking for funding to stop the timber industry from harvesting Giant Sequoias (which nobody was ever trying to do)
We need to ask them to actually do the work and write an environmental impact report or risk assessment and prove that it's worth it. I've written plenty and I would bet that it's not. Although, it's ridiculously easy to make whatever conclusion you want despite the actual data.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
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Join the group to stop the sierra national monument!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/916364548384667/
And if you're wondering, no, the federal government is not going to turn forest lands over to the states for development. The bill is a publicity stunt and totally non-functional so don't support the Monument idea out of fear of the fake bill proposed by showboats.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 10:22pm PT
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A "solution" searching for a problem. Unneeded restrictions to our playground, I say.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 12, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
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You might probably wondering what you can and can't do in a monument. That is different for each one and it will be left up to people on the other side of the country, that's the scary part... There is a stipulation that what is currently allowed in an area is supposed to continue being allowed in an area once it's a monument, but they can make "adjustments" and those often favor industry and not recreational users.
When unwise "environmentalists" push restrictions with minimal payoff it only sours the public to the idea and makes it more difficult for well researched and effective regulations to go through in the future.
Ok, I'll stop now
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
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I'm more interested in seeing the area preserved.
I don't think the area is going anywhere. Do you mean the existing recreational uses preserved? Do you mean preserving the privilege of the "let them eat cake" crowd to exclude commoners from the King's Forest? The area is a climber's paradise as currently administered. What, exactly, needs to change?
John
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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This is a lame idea. We don't need more intrusion...Sierras are ok the way they are set up now.
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Mark Not-circlehead
climber
Martinez, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
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There are a bunch of proposed Monument in the state right now. For some reason there is this big push going on, most of it quite quietly. The Sierra club is at the center of several of these proposals (Berryessa / Snow Mountain Monument).
This is BS if you ask me, and is an attempt to further regulate people (not land!), and the activities they can perform on said public lands. National Monument Status is the most restrictive of all National lands.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Just South Of Heaven
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Apr 13, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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Living here in the area, I personally am against the idea of turning it into a National Monument. It will mean more restrictions. The way things are set up now is fine.
We have a huge area of "protected" land designated as "National Wilderness" already. It covers the whole sierra ridge down to 8,000ft and creeps way down into the river corridors.
Then we have the more recreational user friendly "National Forest" which goes from the more urban areas up towards the high country. The National Forest has plenty of restrictions and is protected and managed by them already.
There is a need for both "Wilderness" and "National Forest" and they have already been set up appropriately. I don't see how converting National Forest into a Monument is going to be a benefit. What about all the dirt roads that are used by off roaders and rock climbers to access all kinds of cool spots? What about open snowmobile access in winter? They specifically leave out any comments about motorized use on dirt roads in a Monument. Will motorized drills be banned too? Will you have to go through a permit process to put up a new climb? Will we need to start paying for camping for the privilege of being in the newly formed National Monument? I don't see the need to lock up more land with more restrictions.
Until they put forth a much clearer vision of what will and won't be allowed I don't see how it can be blindly supported.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Apr 13, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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Toulumne trad, are you Vic who posts as Tuolumne Tradster?
Funny how you went from Sunnyvale to Mariposa in a day. Logging has been dead here since the 90's. My family owned a logging business and we went through losing everything due to some people's political agenda to save the forest. Each year now we watch fires consuming dead timber that isn't logged, consequently creating so much more dead timber due to poorly managed forests.
The biggest problem right now is the Pine Beetle. Drought has made the trees weak and the warmth has kept the Beetles from being dormant. Patches of orange trees litter the forest and the Beetles have already moved on to the next tree. Yet logging remains dead. This summer will be sad and scary. Save your bullshit 75% statistic for more water in Millerton.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 08:47pm PT
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National Monument Proclamations are authorized by presidents under The Antiquities Act of 1906.
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/hisnps/NPSHistory/monuments.htm
there is a long list of presidents who have created national monuments against the wishes of the states' congressional delegation, but there has never been a case where a national monument proclamation has been overturned, and the Supreme's have sided with the president on every case that reached them...
The Congress has passed bills restricting the ability of the president to proclaim NMs in various states, this is piecemeal and usually in response to some very strong local objections...
However, there are many places we go as climbers that had been added to by the eventual incorporation of NMs into Parks... and usually after the fact that an NM had been designated in the state over local objections.
there is an interesting Wiki article on it, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Monument_(United_States);
Since these proclamations are essentially bullet proof, presidents have an opportunity at the end of their term to grant them... and not having to negotiate with congress after their last term, is free from the political fall out from granting such proclamations.
I suspect this has to happen in time for the Congress to attempt to pass a bill, and for the president to veto the bill, and for the veto overturn vote to fail...
The most recent designation was for the San Gabriel Mountains National Monument...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/10/10/president-obama-designates-san-gabriel-mountains-national-monument
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 13, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
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Toulumne trad, are you Vic who posts as Tuolumne Tradster?
NO
Sorry to hear about your family's business Justin.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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Didn't think so Vic, hope you are doing good. Seems this guy might be involved in the movement.
Not meant to complain about losing the business, it happened to a ton of people around here and we moved on. I guess I am bitter towards groups like this that want to change something that so many find perfect the way it is.
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