| Messages 1 - 10 of total 10 in this topic |
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 8, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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What specific day should that be? There are many, many days when Native Americans here in the US got f*#ked over. But then, that and they were the cost of progress. It's all about one's perspective.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May well be a good new holiday, no objection here.
But how about a picture without horses, as they were exterminated by the early Indians over 10,000 years ago, and only reintroduced after the white man "discovered" America.
(Perhaps the Indians didn't exterminate the horses, it was along time ago so hard to be sure, but horses sure weren't in America for the "modern" Indians to enjoy until the white man brought them.)
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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the Spanish showed up in the southwest with some of the best horses in the world
however they had very little contact with the local Apaches
as they couldn't get close enough to catch them
native people can outrun horses over long distances
and that's how the natives got their horses
instead of eating the horses, the Spanish demonstrated how to ride the horses as a status symbol and pack animal
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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All you whities, go back where you came from!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Oct 18, 2012 - 07:16am PT
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This thread brings to mind the remarks of Cadete, chief of the Mescalero Apache, made to his captors at Bosque Redondo. From Blood and Thunder by Hampton Sides:
The four hundred Mescalero Apaches sharing the reservation with the Navajos had come to the end of their patience. Outnumbered by the Navajos twenty to one, they were especially miserable at the bosque. They had refused to send their children to Carleton's school and had completely given up trying to plant corn. Unlike the Diné, the Mescaleros had no tradition of agriculture and had come to view the work required to grow crops--while an interesting novelty at first--as beneath their dignity. At the most basic level, they did not understand the life Carleton wanted them to live; and to the extent that they did, they abhorred it.
One day at Bosque Redondo, Cadete, the great Mescalero chief, fell into conversation with Capt. John Cremony about the Mescalero's view of work. With frank eloquence, Cadete explained his people's disdain for the white man's mode of existence:
"You desire our children to learn from books, and say, that because you have done so, you are able to build all those big houses and sail over the sea, and talk with each other at any distance, and do many wonderful things...
"Let me tell you what we think. You begin when you are little to work hard. After you get to be men, you build big houses, big towns, and everything else in proportion. Then, after you have got them all, you die and leave them behind. Now, we call that slavery. You are slaves from the time you begin to talk until you die; but we are free as air. The Mexicans and others work for us. Our wants are few and easily supplied. The river, the wood and the plain yield all we require. We will not be slaves; nor will we send our children to your schools, where they only learn to become like yourselves."
When Cremony tried to debate some of Cadete's points, he found it "utterly impossible to make him comprehend the other side of his specious argument." The Mescaleros hatred of the bosque was so palpable, and their rejection of its day-to-day life so complete, that he thought they were unteachable.
One morning in early November 1965, the soldiers at Fort Sumner awoke to find that the entire tribe of Mescaleros had bolted from the reservation. The Indians had carefully planned their nighttime breakout, scattering in all directions of the compass, then reconvening in the mountains of their homeland. To effect their escape--and also pay a parting insult to their hated fellow tenants--the Mescaleros absconded with some two hundred horses owned by the Navajos. The army picket guards scarcely bothered to pursue them, and though embarrassed by the episide, General Carleton didn't press the matter. The Mescalero Apaches never returned to the Round Forest.
A new holiday? If you can celebrate the destruction of freedom by an enslaved society which glories in kidding itself that it's "free".
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 18, 2012 - 07:30am PT
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The Apache's had it right. They were free, and that old chief knew what he was saying. We are the slaves to this artificial world we have made.
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Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
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Oct 18, 2012 - 07:32am PT
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"My god! The women here are the most beautiful in the world?" I remarked to my Bogota colleagues during a trip to Colombia a few years back.
"You think so?" Replied Hector, who was driving though the clogged streets where no one seemed to mind the lane lines. "Man, I think they're kinda homely. In Medellin, now THEY are the most beautiful women in the world."
Sh#t, I missed it by that much. Oh well, I was close. Anyway, Phillipe, the passenger, twists in his seat to say,
"You know WHY Colombian women are the most beautiful in the world?" There was a glint in Phillippe's black eyes. He is French Colombian, dual citizenship, his parents emigrated back in the day. He explained that many Colombians of European descent retain dual citizenship. His boss is of Spanish descent and holds a Spanish passport as well. We'd already had that conversation. I asked Phillippe to explain, knowing it would be a good one.
"Let me explain," he began in his curiously accented English (very different than Mexican-accented English, these South Americans). "The English and the Spanish have very different plan for the New World. The English? They come in and kill everyone, start over. That is why you have so many ugly women in the United States. Its the English!"
He smiled his razor thin smile, the one that always had me wondering which cartel he worked for and made me reluctant to say 'no' to this man.
"The Spanish, however..." He paused, smile hanging over the front seat. "The Spanish, they kill all the men and rape all the women. And this is why Colombian women are the most beautiful in the world."
Just then a whole passel of office workers crossed the street in front of us, mostly women. Dressed impeccably, high heels, fit, beautiful women of every skin hue and hairstyle.
"Mmmm hmmmm" I replied to Phillippe."How long does it take to drive to Medellin?" I wondered. Phillippe jumped on it.
"4 hours or 6 weeks." Again with the smile.
"Four hours to six weeks, what does a bridge wash out or something?"
"I said four hours OR six weeks. If your journey goes well, about 4 hours drive. If you get kidnapped crossing the mountains? It will take us about six weeks to ransom you out."
Harhar, those Colombians. Especially the French ones.
DMT
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 18, 2012 - 07:40am PT
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From the Naval Museum in Ushuaia, Argentina:
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