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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 9, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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Somewhat related to all the PAS/daisy recurrence lately, I have read through some past threads (here, RC & MP) with of course lots of "JUST USE THE ROPE" for not just tying in (that's easy to picture and do) but for anchor building.
I have not seen enough examples of ways to use the rope for creating an anchor (typical 3 piece). Tons of equals#!t threads and examples; but rare to see rope only examples. In my very limited multipitch trad leading, I've usually equalized two closer pieces with a sliding x and used another x to equalize to to a third piece and tied myself in either to the masterpoint or strongest piece - haven't used a cordelette despite reading hours of how to.
So. Rope only:
1) cloves only - if you clove 3x to 3 pieces, do you/can you tie a master point? Do you just belay off your harness with a redirect? I prefer to use an autoblock to belay (allows me to manage rope better, etc), so I'd need a master point to use.
2) I've had someone demostrate how to just clip three pieces, pull down and tie a large masterpoint ala old style cordellete useage. Seems to use lots of rope up, but is straightforward and gives: masterpoint, dynamic, statically equalized.
3) This thing by rgold:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg
Seems to go against my KISS reasons for wanting to use the rope. I'm sure with more experience I could work it out, but I'm n00b and want to KISS = safe.
4) fig 8 bunny ears or whatever its called. Seems good for two pieces, how to incorporate a third and masterpoint? Haven't seen this often enough to be familiar with it.
5) - ? you tell/show me whats good or how best to utilize any of the above - which one(s) are easiest for block leading?
Yes its another anchor thread, but this one is for the crusty old guys to show how to "JUST USE THE ROPE" fvckin' n00b.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Here is what I do.
-Get to anchor.
-Put a piece in and clove to it.
-Get another piece in and clove to that. (If both are bomber than I call it good. If not get a 3rd.)
-Adjust for comfort.
-Sometimes I'll belay off the most convienant piece other times I'll belay off my harness, or hip if I have a decent stance.
If I need to equalize then I'll usually use slings and make sliding x's/ cordalette type power points. Pretty rare that I belay anywhere with sketchy gear though, and I climb a lot in Eldo.
Nice pic, I usually don't use the re direct though. Nice addition.
Prod.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Clove hitch to the pieces in the order that they would rip, usually starting with the one closest to you (the first to be weighted if the second falls) and then working away to the next pieces. Then adjust to equalize as best as possible. I could never set up that anchor from rgold's photo
Also, while equalization is important the quality of the pieces is what keeps you safe- if you start blowing pieces and are relying on the sliding x or whatever you have a big problem on your hands.
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Prod
Trad climber
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if you start blowing pieces and are relying on the sliding x or whatever you have a big problem on your hands.
Amen to that.
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brawa
climber
SAN
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Wow, the picture they have posted on the first page of "How to Tie an Equalizing Figure-8 Knot" looks like a relatively easy way to die: Pull yer rope thru here!
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crøtch
climber
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If you want a power point, just throw a butterfly knot between your harness and the first anchor piece.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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I ran across these pics yesterday and they hopefully will be of some help. They're both esentially hanging belays on the same route in the Dolomites. Each took literally a minute to rig and get my partner up and on her way. Due to somewhat questionable components of the belay, I've doubled the redirect point in each case, if you understand my meaning.
There are lots of ways to skin this cat, but I liked these enough to snap the pics, because this type question seems to come up a bunch. Critique away.
BTW, for 99% of climbing I really don't give a sh#t about master points, equalization or any of that other bullshit that sells how-to books. Just look at how the load is distributed in the pics and image what would happen if one thing failed.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Put a piece in and clove to it.
Simply put.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Yo, grab your rope, and go figure it out yo!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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This thing by rgold:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg
Seems to go against my KISS reasons for wanting to use the rope. I'm sure with more experience I could work it out, but I'm n00b and want to KISS = safe.
wtf? too confusing, and confusing = dangerous
It is fast, in fact faster than setting up and breaking down a cordelette, it provides a master point for those who want such things, it is totally adaptable to any anchor configuration that can possibly occur, which cannot be said of any other method, and sorry, but it is simple too, even if understanding it from a picture may be too challenging.
However, if it is "too confusing" for you, do not attempt it.
Perhaps I should make a video?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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I like the setup rgold. I'll give it a try.
Erik
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I hope Mark Hudon doesn't mind me posting one of his pics from the solo aid thread, but this is a nice, simple and elegant way to anchor with a rope using alpine butterfly knots.
As to clove hitchs being improperly tied, I'm having a hard time figuring out how one can mess up a clove hitch. It is one of the simplest and fastest knots to tie, albeit a hitch rather than a knot. What I've typically done is clove hitch the first piece, pull up some slack, then tie the second piece with a figure 8. Having some slack allows one to fine tune the clove hitch to the correct length. But after looking at Marks use of the alpine butterfly, I'm thinking I'll incorporate that into my anchor building routine.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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"Even if it is better, I usually wouldn't do it. what kind of anchors need (REQUIRE) equalizing?"
Rokjox, The answer to your question is all of them...
Basic rockcraft and common sense I believe.
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Rokjox,
Please read up on the subject and get back to me. None of your answers make sense (above or below). Suggested reading as follows.
Climbing Anchors - John Long and
or and even more up to date option
Climbing Anchors second edition - Bob Gaines and John Long
or
Rock Climbing Anchors:
A Comprehensive Guide - Craig Luebben
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Using figure eights is exactly HOW different than using butterflys?
Butterfly good for load in either direction. Also, I think easier to untie when loaded.
Not as quick and easy for me to tie. I do the twist then through the middle method. Is the hand wrap method faster/easier?
Prefer a clove hitch myself, especially on an alpine-type or multi pitch free climb. Fast, one handed if necessary, easy. Quick change over, then, pop it out one handed, done.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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"Even if it is better, I usually wouldn't do it. what kind of anchors need (REQUIRE) equalizing?"
Rokjox, The answer to your question is all of them...
I'm pretty much in rokjox's corner here.
Equalization is a paradigm that's being spoon fed to climbers because it gives a product to sell (equallettes, cordalettes, etc., and books).
If you understand electrical or similar systems, equalization only purports to be a parallel system rather than a sequential system. So what? Its not really better unless you're building toprope anchors, in which case its marginal, or hauling chevrolets. Much ado about nothing.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I think equalization gets confused with avoiding big shock loads on the pieces that don't pull. The latter should of course be avoided, the former is from what I understand not particularly obtainable.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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The only time equalization is truly needed is when either piece would fail on it's own when the entire load is placed on it, i.e. the only way you wouldn't get anchor failure is by splitting the load between the two placements.
If you are truly in such a situation, then by God you need more than just two placements!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By complicating an anchor, you can add failure modes that you don't see or don't understand, and you can also miss single modes of failure that your cluge-o-lette has blinded you to.
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