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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 9, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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Somewhat related to all the PAS/daisy recurrence lately, I have read through some past threads (here, RC & MP) with of course lots of "JUST USE THE ROPE" for not just tying in (that's easy to picture and do) but for anchor building.
I have not seen enough examples of ways to use the rope for creating an anchor (typical 3 piece). Tons of equals#!t threads and examples; but rare to see rope only examples. In my very limited multipitch trad leading, I've usually equalized two closer pieces with a sliding x and used another x to equalize to to a third piece and tied myself in either to the masterpoint or strongest piece - haven't used a cordelette despite reading hours of how to.
So. Rope only:
1) cloves only - if you clove 3x to 3 pieces, do you/can you tie a master point? Do you just belay off your harness with a redirect? I prefer to use an autoblock to belay (allows me to manage rope better, etc), so I'd need a master point to use.
2) I've had someone demostrate how to just clip three pieces, pull down and tie a large masterpoint ala old style cordellete useage. Seems to use lots of rope up, but is straightforward and gives: masterpoint, dynamic, statically equalized.
3) This thing by rgold:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg
Seems to go against my KISS reasons for wanting to use the rope. I'm sure with more experience I could work it out, but I'm n00b and want to KISS = safe.
4) fig 8 bunny ears or whatever its called. Seems good for two pieces, how to incorporate a third and masterpoint? Haven't seen this often enough to be familiar with it.
5) - ? you tell/show me whats good or how best to utilize any of the above - which one(s) are easiest for block leading?
Yes its another anchor thread, but this one is for the crusty old guys to show how to "JUST USE THE ROPE" fvckin' n00b.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Here is what I do.
-Get to anchor.
-Put a piece in and clove to it.
-Get another piece in and clove to that. (If both are bomber than I call it good. If not get a 3rd.)
-Adjust for comfort.
-Sometimes I'll belay off the most convienant piece other times I'll belay off my harness, or hip if I have a decent stance.
If I need to equalize then I'll usually use slings and make sliding x's/ cordalette type power points. Pretty rare that I belay anywhere with sketchy gear though, and I climb a lot in Eldo.
Nice pic, I usually don't use the re direct though. Nice addition.
Prod.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Clove hitch to the pieces in the order that they would rip, usually starting with the one closest to you (the first to be weighted if the second falls) and then working away to the next pieces. Then adjust to equalize as best as possible. I could never set up that anchor from rgold's photo
Also, while equalization is important the quality of the pieces is what keeps you safe- if you start blowing pieces and are relying on the sliding x or whatever you have a big problem on your hands.
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Prod
Trad climber
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if you start blowing pieces and are relying on the sliding x or whatever you have a big problem on your hands.
Amen to that.
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brawa
climber
SAN
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Wow, the picture they have posted on the first page of "How to Tie an Equalizing Figure-8 Knot" looks like a relatively easy way to die: Pull yer rope thru here!
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crøtch
climber
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If you want a power point, just throw a butterfly knot between your harness and the first anchor piece.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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I ran across these pics yesterday and they hopefully will be of some help. They're both esentially hanging belays on the same route in the Dolomites. Each took literally a minute to rig and get my partner up and on her way. Due to somewhat questionable components of the belay, I've doubled the redirect point in each case, if you understand my meaning.
There are lots of ways to skin this cat, but I liked these enough to snap the pics, because this type question seems to come up a bunch. Critique away.
BTW, for 99% of climbing I really don't give a sh#t about master points, equalization or any of that other bullshit that sells how-to books. Just look at how the load is distributed in the pics and image what would happen if one thing failed.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Put a piece in and clove to it.
Simply put.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Yo, grab your rope, and go figure it out yo!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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This thing by rgold:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg
Seems to go against my KISS reasons for wanting to use the rope. I'm sure with more experience I could work it out, but I'm n00b and want to KISS = safe.
wtf? too confusing, and confusing = dangerous
It is fast, in fact faster than setting up and breaking down a cordelette, it provides a master point for those who want such things, it is totally adaptable to any anchor configuration that can possibly occur, which cannot be said of any other method, and sorry, but it is simple too, even if understanding it from a picture may be too challenging.
However, if it is "too confusing" for you, do not attempt it.
Perhaps I should make a video?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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I like the setup rgold. I'll give it a try.
Erik
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I hope Mark Hudon doesn't mind me posting one of his pics from the solo aid thread, but this is a nice, simple and elegant way to anchor with a rope using alpine butterfly knots.
As to clove hitchs being improperly tied, I'm having a hard time figuring out how one can mess up a clove hitch. It is one of the simplest and fastest knots to tie, albeit a hitch rather than a knot. What I've typically done is clove hitch the first piece, pull up some slack, then tie the second piece with a figure 8. Having some slack allows one to fine tune the clove hitch to the correct length. But after looking at Marks use of the alpine butterfly, I'm thinking I'll incorporate that into my anchor building routine.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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"Even if it is better, I usually wouldn't do it. what kind of anchors need (REQUIRE) equalizing?"
Rokjox, The answer to your question is all of them...
Basic rockcraft and common sense I believe.
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Rokjox,
Please read up on the subject and get back to me. None of your answers make sense (above or below). Suggested reading as follows.
Climbing Anchors - John Long and
or and even more up to date option
Climbing Anchors second edition - Bob Gaines and John Long
or
Rock Climbing Anchors:
A Comprehensive Guide - Craig Luebben
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Using figure eights is exactly HOW different than using butterflys?
Butterfly good for load in either direction. Also, I think easier to untie when loaded.
Not as quick and easy for me to tie. I do the twist then through the middle method. Is the hand wrap method faster/easier?
Prefer a clove hitch myself, especially on an alpine-type or multi pitch free climb. Fast, one handed if necessary, easy. Quick change over, then, pop it out one handed, done.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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"Even if it is better, I usually wouldn't do it. what kind of anchors need (REQUIRE) equalizing?"
Rokjox, The answer to your question is all of them...
I'm pretty much in rokjox's corner here.
Equalization is a paradigm that's being spoon fed to climbers because it gives a product to sell (equallettes, cordalettes, etc., and books).
If you understand electrical or similar systems, equalization only purports to be a parallel system rather than a sequential system. So what? Its not really better unless you're building toprope anchors, in which case its marginal, or hauling chevrolets. Much ado about nothing.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I think equalization gets confused with avoiding big shock loads on the pieces that don't pull. The latter should of course be avoided, the former is from what I understand not particularly obtainable.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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The only time equalization is truly needed is when either piece would fail on it's own when the entire load is placed on it, i.e. the only way you wouldn't get anchor failure is by splitting the load between the two placements.
If you are truly in such a situation, then by God you need more than just two placements!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By complicating an anchor, you can add failure modes that you don't see or don't understand, and you can also miss single modes of failure that your cluge-o-lette has blinded you to.
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Gene
climber
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By complicating an anchor, you can add failure modes that you don't see or don't understand, and you can also miss single modes of failure that your cluge-o-lette has blinded you to.
+1
g
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Regarding butterflies, Brian said:
I do the twist then through the middle method. Is the hand wrap method faster/easier?
Hand wrap is easier for me... it's the twist thing that freaks ME out
:-)
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Gene
climber
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Catastrophic anchor failure (CAF) is very rare we must be doing something right.
Examples of CAF that I can remember:
Recent JT accident but other factors were involved.
DNB many years ago
The three who were killed rapping from Sickle many, many years ago.
Im sure there are more.
The number of fatalities due to CAF is miniscule compared to rappelling accidents, forgetting to tie into the rope &/or checking the harness, and general brain farts.
g
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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....how one can mess up a clove hitch. It is one of the simplest and fastest knots to tie, albeit a hitch rather than a knot.
A clove hitch is easy to manage and quick to deploy once you're at the anchors or after you've set up your "love nest".
Easy cheesy Japanesee...
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Rokjox,
I have to say it. You are an idiot. Well documented. You prove it every post. I'm an idiot as well for even entering into the conversation with you. :-}
It is clear that loads increase in an unsafe way when you don't extend pieces to lower the angle. Surely we have progressed past using the death triangle comparison. Does anybody not know this?
Your post says there is not point in equalization and each piece placed must be absolutely bomber. Unfortunately this is not always possible. If all the pieces in your anchors are totally bomber why not use only one piece?
"If each anchor can't hold the weight/impact individually, you do NOT have a redundant anchor. And I couldn't give a damn HOW you tie them together, equalization doesn't work at all nearly as well as the theory suggests."
Granted equalization is not perfect but it is a lot better than nothing!
"Some of those things (above) are equalizing anchors that if one leg DOES fail, between the extension AND the shock loading, NONE of the other anchors are going to hold either."
This statement is flat out wrong! If one leg fails it dissipates energy that will help the other legs hold.
"Damn, too complicated is right." "I think you guys are making this sh#t WHAY too screwy for real life. Much less when you are half passed out and/or in a hurry."
Complicated? Too slow? Cordelettes, equalletes, equalized rope, or using slings all seem to work fine once you have used them a few times. Then again maybe it's because I'm "not half passed out".
Erik
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gavilanz
Trad climber
Davis, Ca
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Might be worth adding a note here about the belay set up illustrated in the link in the original post and the video. While it looks sound and easy to set up, it would muddle things up if partners are not swapping leads on a multi-pitch route. I am a proponent of using the rope for anchors, but most of my multi-pitch climbing of late has me on the sharp end for every pitch so out of necessity a cordelette and slings form the bulk of my anchors. I usually clove into a couple of my anchor pieces as well.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think Rokjox is mostly right. Equalization is a lovely idea but you can't get it in practice with a three-point anchor. More or less any way you manage to tie three points together is probably going to be good enough most of the time. Every now and then it will not be; I think I've heard about total anchor failure about once every ten years, and no one knows whether some fancier rigging would have made a difference. On the other hand, most climbers have never had their anchors tested by a severe impact and so have an expertise based on...well, on nothing. The claim that they've been doing this way for X years and are still around might mean nothing more than that they've been building anchors adequate for body weight all this time.
When anchor points line up, I think sequential clove-hitching is fine. When anchor points are spread horizontally, the method of mine linked upthread is as effective as any and probably more effective than most in terms of distributing the load. And I am perplexed about comments about complexity. You make an overhand knot for a power point, then four clove hitches in sequence. It is hard to imagine anything much simpler, it is totally transparent to check, it is far more adjustable than any of the other systems, and it works universally for everything---you don't have to reinvent the wheel for each new configuration. That's an example of something that meets KISS standards, not violates them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling anything here. I didn't post that picture, the OP did. I'm comfortable with a broad range of anchor rigging tactics, and I don't think I have ever said a word to anyone I've climbed with about what they set up, except for beginning climbers who want and need advice (remembering, of course, that my "expertise" is subject to the same caveats I mentioned above).
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Given that we don't see dead bodies littering the bases of cliffs nation wide, How important is this subject?
Tie an 8 knot, clove hitch, clove hitch, a sling to another cam or nut, looks good, On Belay! Climb When Ready!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mark summarizes this topic very nicely. Where are the bodies? Remember that in nearly all cases involving a leader or a second falling there are other points of protection between the belayer and climber. Rarely (almost never) is there great force put on the belay anchor. There is always some force (body weight) put on a rap anchor. More commentary should be directed to rap anchors than belay anchors.
Interesting that people are much more frugal about rap anchors than belay anchors when rap anchors are much more important. Oh....I forgot, you have to leave rap anchors behind.
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Zander
climber
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Hey surfstar,
I've sort of moved on from NOOB status. Now I'm currently at NOOB with two red stripes. Of course, I still have opinions based on my increasing knowledge. I've been climbing ten years and have in the last few started using the rope tie in most of the time. Before I slightly expand on Prods clear instructions let me say a couple of things.
Most of the guys posting on this thread are, like, Bad To The Bone, which means they barely remember when they didn't know a damn thing. But I do. It was last week.
Hire a guide a couple of times, one who will let you lead at least on the second time. I climbed with a guide once a year the first five years I was climbing, twice with Karl who is often on this very site. You cannot learn what you will learn from these sessions on Supertopo. Or get one of the other guys on this thread to be you mentor. They will happier and more lucid when they are climbing.
The way you rig the belay is less important than getting in a couple of good pieces of pro.
So here we go. . .
You climb to where you are going to set up the anchor. You look for the very best place to put in a piece of pro and you put it in. The you give it a tug. Then you wiggle it up and down a few times. Then you give it a bigger tug. Then you look at it again. It has to be right. If it the correct height to be the lowest piece in your anchor you clip right in with the clove hitch. When you tie in with the rope, you will be tying in low to high. If this first piece is too high- the second best location for pro is lower, you clip to it as if you were still climbing. You are still on belay after all. Now you get the lowest piece in just right and clove hitch to it. Adjust the clove hitch so you are standing as you will be when you start belaying. Then clove hitch to the first piece you put in. Maybe use a locker. Adjust the clove hitch so there is as little slack as possible between the two pieces when you lean back to belay. Call out off belay. If you are any of the other guys on this thread you are probably done. If you are me you start looking for a third location a bit higher. Once you are sure it is good, tie into it with a figure eight or another clove hitch. Now you look up the next pitch and if you decide it is protectable you are done. If you decide there is a good chance your partner is going to take a major whipper. Start looking for a place to put in pro below the lowest piece that will work for an upward pull. Tie this piece to your lowest piece if possible or the second piece if not. You'll probably have to use a clove hitched sling.
Try to avoid putting the first clove hitch on a piece that you will later move or will not be the lowest piece. That is the first step to a major cluster-funk.(Donini is down there and you don't want him to need to wait.) For me that means get clipped in to the best piece possible so you don't need to worry about taking a leader fall.
Report back how it goes.
Z
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Why do rap anchors fail? Probably the most common scenario is if the anchor is singular, and fails - no redundancy. Second, if slings fail - often old, weathered slings. Third, rappeler screw up - loss of control, for one reason or another.
By nature, rappel anchors are easier to equalize - you need only provide for loading from a small range of angles. Their failing because they're not equalized may not be a common issue.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I'd guess the majority of deaths from rapping are going off the end of the rope, trying to retrieve a stuck rope and taking the long ride when it gets un-stuck, and knot failure.
One of my pet peeves is people backing up tat, but not cutting out the old rotted slings. If it's so ratty you don't trust it, remove it, don't just add a 3rd or 4th sling.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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And why do people rap on old webbing or single anchors? Because, perish the thought, They can't leave that gleaming (expensive) cam behind. Rap anchors are, by many orders of magnitude, more important than belay anchors, but you don't get much chatter about them here. I am working on a thread to address that!
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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At least yours are real. Imaginary sh#t is rampant here.
The "C-H" is light. And has been for quite a while. Easy day route.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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starting to wonder why more climbers don't die, and I do not mean you for asking the question, i mean for some of the answers here...
whew!
get a knot book, learn the bowline on a bight,
and a butterfly knot.
i was never a fan of clove hitches...
edit: cloves are not positive, and impossible to undo after loading... not what you want in your system... a great knot is exactly right every time, and can be undone easily, but not accidentally.
so use the right knot for the job at hand, tie in with an 8, but choose the knot for the anchor based on the site,,, and a bowline on a bight with you on one end should at least be tried as an alternative for some situations.
get Mountaineering the Freedom of the Hills in your hands, and learn principles, not how to tie this particular setup...
then anticipate all directions of pull, control the possibilities with your brain, locate knots, thats right, Choose not just which knot to use, but where it shouild be.. you do not want a loaded knot scrubbing across a knob, when it coud be above a dish.. rope wear acceletes on a tensioned radius... grab largo's anchor book.. practice making anchors... learn some more.
and also figure anyone that writes "bite" when they mean bight, might not be the best source for anchor management
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Cloves are fine. I've got a clove deadlocked on a biner, I dare you to get it off without a knife. It held a great fall.
Slippy? Not so much.
Oh, BTW, Rokyguy? Give it up...everyone HAS to know that you're well read, but still full of sh#t.
No imagination. Poor bastard.
F*#k you back, tough guy. You're a familiar. Internet Crap slinger.
Real dipsh#t. I've seen your type. They are legion.
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R.B.
Trad climber
47N 122W
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Old schoolers like me use both the figure 8 and clove hitches on anchors.
Just tie and clip one figure 8 (usually into the top peice in the cluster fuk) and everything else below that can be equalized with slings, cordettes, and clove hitches. The fig. 8 is an insurance policy knot that you know WILL never fail or slip. Have one, and you are good to GO!
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Oh my! Did the moron just out fish the turd?
Ha ha ha ha!
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:05am PT
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Just so much blah blah blah.
You don't strike me as one in contact with the World.
Opportunistic hanger on is more accurate.
Or light. You're mostly just light with a large helping of pure bullshit in sheep's clothing. Hehehe. That's a joke just for me. Unless you get it. I don't care.
Go away now. Punk. Cuz you suck. And we(the larger World) KNOW it.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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I Am a bit of a noob. I feel good a put my placements and confidently climb 7,8, and 9's. But I lead every pitch because my wife is just not mentally there yet. When you lead every pitch, I dont see any better way than some sort of cord config. For the top out, I nearly always clove into a couple pieces, but for every other belay I tote around my two cordalettes. I don't see a faster way. I would love to cut the cord so to speak.
I dont see how anchoring in solely with a rope is superior in this situation.
Btw, no matter what you all say I am still bringing doubles to at least 2 in's, call me a coward.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Positive reinforcement? Or total as#@&%e? You decide.
If I see you out there Justin, I'm encouraging you. Do as you think best.
If and when you live, we'll discuss your choices.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:57am PT
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"Gimme thirty seconds....belay's almost ready!!!!"
"Climb On!"
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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rokjox, was that directed at me? I was 100% sympathetic to your view when applied to swinging leads. I have hip belayed before on many occasions kayaking and canyoneering, hell I have even rappelled with that over the shoulder and under the crotch method...never again. But when your wife doesn't want to swap leads, I don't see how building an anchor with the rope is best practice.
I can go over my outdoor resume with you, and like you I have traded in some of my 9 lives for some serious whitewater antics. But when I am climbing with my wife, I am just happy to get freaked out on lead with her in tow. I don't think the Middle kings or Upper Cherry with her is in the cards any time soon.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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I just got back from Reel Rock film tour - I think I'm just going to skip this whole anchor business and join the race up the nose. Less gear, less worries.
I started this thread looking for anchor rigging idea/options using the rope - I've already read the equalette-cordelette extension vs equalization vs WTF many times over. Didn't need this thread to rehash it - oh well, they get a life of their own sometimes.
Zander thanks for trying to keep the thread on track.
I do get that having bomber pieces are the first and most important part of a solid anchor. I've felt comfortable with the ones I've built so far. I'm looking forward to swinging leads with someone in the future to try out rope only rigging. Multi-pitch might be done for a while unless I make it to Red Rocks this winter, unfortunately.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 02:15am PT
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Rokjox. I appreciate that, and I regret my now deleted post...hope you didn't see it.
I wish I lived in ID, and had family there. It is my shangri la. But you must take up Kayaking, no finer place outside of CA that is. California has too much baggage though, so it may be the finest.
It has the best overnight+ wilderness moderates in the country for kayaking.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 02:35am PT
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Yeah I am pretty pleased that she puts up with my antics. Occasionally there is some crying, but at least with girls, they keep going. Guys on the other hand, when they start crying, its all over. You are screwed. I think girls are more durable sometimes. She can hike me into the dust!
Climbing is perfect, because I can scare myself to my hearts delight. She is totally happy, as long as the weather is good, and its not getting dark. Epics and wives do not mix.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Nov 10, 2011 - 10:26am PT
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Settin' up your anchor w/ doubles can be so fast, and easy to equalize, eh.
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Nov 10, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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Not my photo, but I've used simple setups like this when gear placements are good. Belaying off the anchor is good sometimes and some people I climb with demand it. This is a near-perfect setup off two good bolts. Other times I've felt the need for something a bit more complicated.
We all manage risk in our own way... but actively managing it seems better to me than just doing the same thing all the time because that "thing" is what we think is "the right way."
I usually use a tether to attach to my 1st piece or to one of the bolts when arriving at the belay. Then the tether is the last thing off, either when breaking down the anchor to follow the next pitch, or when getting ready to lead the next. I know, tethers are stupid single purpose items that get in the way. And they do get in the way. But more than once I've used my tether to replace some tat or such.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Nov 10, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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Tom, that's funny you posted a pic. of the Rurp Belay, as I was thinking of that as a great example of how to equalize the points of a belay anchor using clove hitches.
It's not that this discussion is important because of piles of dead bodies lying around, although if your buddy got the chop because an anchor failed you might think this to be a more worthy topic.
It's important because it is EASY to equalize, or nearly equalize the points in the anchor. It is also FAST. (I think Rgolds pic. upthread shows a very simple, fast and well-thought-out anchor.) If something can be done simply and quickly and makes the system even a little bit stronger, why not do it?
Surely having a nearly-equalized belay anchor is better than one that is not even close to being equalized. (In the pic. of Bard on the Sea, imagine the potential consequences of one of the rurps blowing if there were three feet of slack between consecutive rurps.)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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Is that configuration using a figure-8 and loading the loop dangerous? Isn't the 8 going to roll under very little force and that's why the figure-8 is the real death knot when loaded this way?
Or maybe that's an overhand? Still, I'd rather use a knot that is designed to have the loop loaded if I'm going to use it in an anchor.
Just wondering.
Dave
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 10, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Is that configuration using a figure-8 and loading the loop dangerous? Isn't the 8 going to roll under very little force and that's why the figure-8 is the real death knot when loaded this way?
Its a figure eight on a bite. Not two rope ends tied together.
Uhh, pretty bomber.
To answer your questions: no.
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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Go here:
Long/Luebben Advanced Rock Climbing
Start reading at page 84 or so... then go buy the book because it is a GREAT book and a fun read.
Page 86 has a nice example of a rope tie-in and refers to it as "preferred by both authors much of the time." The trick, then, is to figure out just what "much of the time" means to you as part of your risk management plan :-)
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
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I think that's called a zipper-o-lette anchor.
What makes this discussion tough is that some people have very strong opinions, but really don't understand the mechanics of anchoring, nor the concepts of redundancy, nor are they able to identify single modes of failure.
I've always been open minded on building anchors. I figure I can always learn something new and add another trick to my quiver.
One thing I've tried to learn and put into place after a decade plus of being involved in industrial safety is that simplicity and consistancy are very, very important. If you have a system that will provide 70-80% of the strength of the "ideal" setup, but your 70-80% deal is easy to setup and has no hidden failure modes, then it's 100 times better than a complex "ideal" setup that has some hidden failure modes and can be incorrectly setup w/o noticing it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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I've studied this topic for ages and have come to these conclusions:
A), Owing to so few total anchor failures, there is little definitive information out there per real-world accidents, making it hard to reverse engineer things back to what does not work, ergo, what to avoid.
B), Equalization is somewhat obtainable with two pieces (the "Quad" comes closest, by far), but is only approximated, somewhat poorly, in all 3 and 4 piece arrays.
G), Equalization is only truly required when the individual pieces in an anchor are suspect and load-sharing becomes a factor. This happens VERY infrequently, especially on popular routes. IOWs, elaborate tie-in systems are rarely called for. Also, equalettes, and so forth take some practice to master, but become quick to build with some little experience - but again they are rarely needed.
H), Testing indicates that shock-loading does not happen as advertised, most likely because the distances involved are usually too short for the falling weight to generate enough velocity to greatly increase the load. However, limiting extension is probably more important than equalization.
I), Most all testing involves static loading, which is of limited value since a falling climber is not a static-loading scenario. Drop testing renders different results than static testing, but is far more involved to do.
J), Simple rigging set ups (anchor tie off) are by and large the way to go providing the primary anchors are sound. Tying off with the rope, though primitive, remains a viable method on most trade routes where the anchors are sound.
K), The number one concern in building any anchor is obtaining bombproof primary placements - the actual pieces in the anchor array.
L), The belay chain is best thought of in terms of a system to limit peak forces. In that sense, the top piece - the so-called "Jesus Nut," is ALWAYS the most important piece in the belay chain, since it always absorbs initial loading. To think of a belay anchor as the "top piece" is to misconstrue the system. Every climbing scenario is meant to avoid directly shock loading the anchor. You build a bomb-proof anchor NOT to absorb this shock loading as a matter of course, but to safeguard the extremely rare instance of the top piece blowing out and the anchor directly absorbing a factor 2 fall.
Set great primary pieces; keep it simple; get that bomber Jesus Nut is straight off; go for it.
JL
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Its a figure eight on a bite. Not two rope ends tied together.
Uhh, pretty bomber.
To answer your questions: no.
How is this not identical to tying two ropes together? Loading the loop alone in two directions, not the loop against the tail(s), places force on the rope identical to two ropes tied together.
Let me explain; when you tie two ropes together, you end up pulling apart the strands that exit the knot. When you create a bight of rope and pull on the loop, you are also pulling apart the strands that exit the knot.
Pulling the strands one way and pulling the loop the other is a very different load model for the knot than just pulling apart the strands that exit the same side of the knot.
I hope I can get some more feedback on this because I recall a discussion a while back where people all agreed that pulling apart the strands that exit a knot on the same side would cause the knot to roll regardless of there being a loop or not.
Dave
edit to add this picture that shows the forces involved if the other piece blows:
edit to add this picture, with bad Photoshop job, showing the loop being loaded more clearly. This and the previous picture are the same thing except that this one shows the loop oriented differently to better show the problem. Sorry for mangling the knot in the picture but assume it's a proper figure 8.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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One thing I've tried to learn and put into place after a decade plus of being involved in industrial safety is that simplicity and consistancy are very, very important. If you have a system that will provide 70-80% of the strength of the "ideal" setup, but your 70-80% deal is easy to setup and has no hidden failure modes, then it's 100 times better than a complex "ideal" setup that has some hidden failure modes and can be incorrectly setup w/o noticing it.
Sounds like you are talking about the cordelette.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 10, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
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Let me explain; when you tie two ropes together, you end up pulling apart the strands that exit the knot. When you create a bight of rope and pull on the loop, you are also pulling apart the strands that exit the knot.
Pulling the strands one way and pulling the loop the other is a very different load model for the knot than just pulling apart the strands that exit the same side of the knot.
I hope I can get some more feedback on this because I recall a discussion a while back where people all agreed that pulling apart the strands that exit a knot on the same side would cause the knot to roll regardless of there being a loop or not.
I still think the load paths are different. In a rappel situation, with the figure eight knot used to tie the ropes together, there is a risk that under a high load, the knot could roll. You're kinda not pulling the strands apart so much as pulling them in the same direction against a ring/rapide (maybe that's similar enough?). In the testing done that everyone references (Tom from Salt Lake), he pulled straight away on each strand which would no doubt simulated worse case. In all cases, the knot either rolled after a fairly high load, or, low then high them maybe failure (etc).
I just don't see the comparison for a figure eight on a bite. If the knot did roll (doubtful and maybe good for speading out peak force anyhow), where would it go? The ends aren't anywhere near. Climber is anchored to one side.
It just isn't the same situation.
One thing that's clear, though, is the guy that built that anchor, clearly, doesn't know what the f he's doing...I mean, just look, he's tied into a stack of friggin' rocks...
Cheers!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 11, 2011 - 12:07am PT
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Simple...couple nuts, a biner, and a clove hitch.
It' no #3 Camalot, but...bomber!
Ha ha...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 11, 2011 - 09:32am PT
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In the system of mine posted by the OP, the strands can radiate out from the power point in any direction. Incorporating an upward directional is no harder and no different than than attaching to any other anchor point.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Nov 11, 2011 - 10:36am PT
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Simple...couple nuts, a biner, and a clove hitch.
You must be on crack. What I've learned so far from this thread: no clove hitches and no figure 8's in a belay. Wait. Tying in with the rope is primitive. Death is imminent. You'll have to try again.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 11, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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If you can't figure out how to tie knots n a rope and attach them to carabinered anchors, don't.
Few things in climbing are as straight forward as that.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 11, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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I can't seem how somebody can manage to tie their rope to their harness, and yet would be baffled at how to tie a knot or knots in the same rope at an anchor.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 11, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
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What's next here?
How do I shut a carabiner gate after I open it???
I want to start out on the right foot. Is that always the *right* foot, or is it sometimes the *left* foot???
How do I know what end of the rope to tie into?
What if my partner has already called dibs on that end?
Where can I buy a three-ended rope so I can climb with two other people???
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ubernoober
climber
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Feb 22, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
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Sorry to bring this up again around here.
I realize this subject is very emotional for some of you.
This thread was linked over at Mountain Project http://www.mountainproject.com/v/building-an-anchor-with-climbing-rope/107482016 asking pretty much the same thing as you did. Several people have posted a few examples of some different methods that might work for you. Some of them might not work so well.
I'm curious what sayeth the taco?
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Feb 22, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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I'd say theres a bunch of tards posting over there as well...there is more janky examples of anchors and a debate whether or not there was a bolt out of view on the "rurp belay" picture......Zzzzzzzzzzz
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 22, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
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How do I open a locking caribiner if I lose the key?
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
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After this round of talks, I'm apt to try rgold's rig now. Seems to have gotten simpler to me.
I successfully used the rope only last month - topping out on Right On, I just slung a big boulder, adjusted the length and got comfy to bring up my second. As I led all the pitches, I just used slings at the other belays (two bolted, one gear).
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