Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mike
climber
Orange County CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 5, 2003 - 05:22pm PT
|
I once climbed a wall with a cheater stick that was so long that my partner could not take a photo of me that included the end of the stick. We never used it. Is it cheating to bring one? Is it better style to not bring one? What justifies - if anything - bringing one?
I saw a soloist bail the second pitch of Lurking Fear because he was "gripped after so many mandatory cheater stick moves" on pitch 1. I think the stick scared him off.
|
|
bird
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Since the person who invented it called it a cheater stick it is in fact cheating. If it had been called a stick clip as in sport climbing it would be legitimate.
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2003 - 06:16pm PT
|
I am by no means a very experienced aid climber, but I've done that pitch sans stick, and while the hooking did freak me out a bit (that's how not experienced I am), there's never more than one hook in a row. Probably best that he bailed from the sound of things.
|
|
jason
Big Wall climber
London
|
|
It comes down to what you are cheating.
In my humble mind if the stick is cheating death then I will continue to cheat. It is cheating me out of the wonderful mind blowing thrill of having six hook moves in a row then I will be not be happy.
Its my stick, my life and my seoul. I only cheat my self really?
|
|
Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
|
|
isnt it called "AID" climbing?
|
|
hillsyde one
Mountain climber
not a place where i can climb @ this moment
|
|
the stick can "AID" me in upward progress so we should call it an aid stick. if i came upon a section of a route where by some force of nature the next couple of placements above me had been wiped out, id aid stick past rather than drill past.(and not feel cheated at all)...
not sure about the "ethics" behind "sticking" past "scary" placements(jacked up heads and rusty fixed pins etc etc..)
in this case one may have summited but did not do so in the same manner as the FA....skipped moves?
|
|
James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
|
|
I believe this question is one of style. Climbers play games with rules. We have one end of the spectrum where there are tons of rules (bouldering) and another end where there are none (mountaineering). In bouldering you must free every move using only certain holds in a certain sequence without touching the ground, using artificial means, etc.. In mountaineering you must summit, even then if you are talking to Mark Twight you might not even have to do that, and you can use ladders, bolts, a fifteen foot extendable dildo if it helps etc. We place these rules on ourselves to make the reward we achieve better and harder to get. If we could just put a bolt ladder on Midnight Lightning it probably wouldn't even have a name because there would be few who would spend there nights dreaming about climbing it. By using certain means you are changing the reward you get when you accomplish it. Some people believe that using ALIENS on an ascent is cheating because they work too well and therefore not allowed. As far as the history of the cheater stick, numerous well known climbers have used cheater sticks, notably Randy Leavitt. He put up Scorched Earth and brought a cheater stick on the first ascent and used it to make moves so that he wouldn't have to bolt. To climb the route in the same style as the first ascensionest you would need to use a cheater stick or do it in better style and thus get a similar feeling of accomplishment as the first ascensionist. In this case by using a cheater stick on Lurking Fear you are make an ascent that is not as hard as the one the first ascentionist made. By making any route easier you are going to get less of a sense of accomplishment. You do not need a cheater stick on Lurking Fear...if you want to do the free variation and not the original start you can try to free it or pull on draws. The orignal start is in the corner...this is the actual start of the climb by doing the free-variation you are making it easier and thus losing some sense of accomplishment...you just have to ask yourself if sacrificing some of your ascent's style is worth the sense of accomplishment you recieve when you summit.
|
|
Mike
climber
Orange County CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2003 - 05:47pm PT
|
A question of style - I agree totally.
Yep, it's aid. Gear climbing, not rock climbing. But clipping past fixed gear or past a far reach is a way to ascend on aid that diminishes the skill and commitment (and possibly danger) involved. In some cases clipping could create more danger, as when a decent piece of webbing is tied on a time bomb that's hidden from below.
If a FA was sticked through, power to the FAscentionist for minimizing hole count. Hopefully it's made known on the topo/rack.
Clipping past broken gear when you've decided not to bring the necessary tools to fix it seems "legit", and doing it to avoid extra holes is commendable, I think.
So what about these extra-long Frost nuts and Aliens? Are they "cheater pieces"? ("Then what about sticky rubber and chalk?" or "What if your 5'2"?" someone might counter...) What about threading nuts together or lassoing stuff with slings/hooks?
I can understand a lesser experienced climber bringing a stick on a route that's beyond anything in difficulty/commitment than he's yet done. As a novice, I would rather summit my first El Cap route with a stick than a grade 5 without one.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
I usually bring a "stick clip" on aid routes.
I've used a couple of different styles. My favorite is a BD expedition ski pole. Bugger doesn't want to fold up when I have gear, biners, extended slings and an adjustable daisy all clipped to it...
Really handy are those epic stick clip plastic thingy's that can hold a biner open. They also will hold many cam types in the retracted position too. Placin' a bomber cam from 5 feet away, talk about cheatin'! Yee haaa!
My most recent acquisition, is 15 feet of avy probe with the largest Pika Ibis hook bolted to the end. Ain't no mountain high enough...(actually more for the "valley low enough" as I use it for escaping keeper pot holes and plunge pools whilst canyoneering).
Brian in SLC
|
|
DEE
Trad climber
Orange County
|
|
I received some criticism when I used a "stick" on a coveted 2nd ascent (aid route) on Tahquitz years ago. My detractor stated that since I had reached past the "A4" hook placements using my stick (A1 X) that the ascent was invalid. This same gentleman thought nothing of using sticks on El Cap routes or anywhere else. Comments?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
|
|
But DEE, that had nothing to do with the stick.... it was because you're LIGHT, and the coveted second ascent was simply out of your reach.
What you doo-in these days anyway?
adios,
Russ
|
|
FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
|
|
hey- is this a cheater stick?
here is the skinny dee:
you are just clipping gear anyway, so what the hell does it matter which gear you clip? it's all shades of grey, and all you cats are all pulling on gear anyway, so it makes no difference whatsoever.
you'd think that someone would have given the "cheater stick" a name that sounded a bit more badass, but instead it must have been a free climber walking by giving one of you lot a hard time, and the name just stuck...
so dee, the real question is this:
what makes you think that those ascents are coveted?
that's not really climbing, it's jugging up for a better view, and you guys know it...
Fc
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
|
|
Cheater stick rules:
Ok to use:
if you are a midget and there is a Hugh Burton bolt ladder
if used on the FA and is listed in the topo
if you are a GIRL
if after topping out, you tell everyone you used a cheater stick
if you snapped off a car antenna in the Lodge lot on the way to the base.
if you are a Gym climber
if it is over 120ft long
if the webbing on it is sketchier than anything you might clip.
if it is used to fish out feces from the crack at Camp 6 on the Nose.
if you work for the ASCA
Not Ok to use:
if you are able bodied and over 5'6" in height.
if you are a MAN
if you keep it a secret when you brag about your ascent.
if you pretend to have any sack
if you are doing an ascent past the 50th, and 44 of those were done without one.
if you want sponsored.
if you want free drinks
and probably dozens more....
Russ
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
Help, Russ!
I am definately a GIRL.
I'm not quite 5'6"
I do not pretend to have a sac.
I climb in a gym.
And, I'd wear a scarlet stick clip on my sport bra if that made my 'spray' more honest.
So it would seem that I fall into the category of folks for whom the cheater stick is OK.
However...
I still want free drinks.
So, can I use one?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
|
|
2nd try! the forum stole and mutilated my post!!!!
Melissa writes:
>>Help, Russ!
I am definately a GIRL.
I'm not quite 5'6"
I do not pretend to have a sac.
I climb in a gym.
And, I'd wear a scarlet stick clip on my sport bra if that made my 'spray' more honest.
So it would seem that I fall into the category of folks for whom the cheater stick is OK. >>
Wish granted.... use of one cheater stick until:
you become a WOMAN
you get a longer inseam
you get some phantom sack
you only use the gym as a "meat" market
>>I still want free drinks.
You'll get 'em... PHOENIX COMP... FREE BOOZE... FISH BOOTH.... You'll need a cheater stick just to get back to your tent.
That goes for all you mugs.... PHOENIX COMP.... FREE BOOZE.... (see your own bile and shorten your life all in the name of fun)
adios,
Russ
|
|
Mike
climber
Orange County CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2003 - 05:44pm PT
|
Of course it's not free climbing, Fc. Free climbing isn't the topic here, gear climbing is. Some people actually like to do either aid or free and not condemn one as an illegit version of the other. A new topic could be started that tallies the ills of aid climbing/climbers - no doubt it would be as stimulating as "News Flash: Sport Climbing is Stupid". But do hang with us weak, lazy, skeerdycat, fifi-hangin, decadent funhogs, okay?
DEE, you shoulda done the hook move, Dad. It's not too late...I hafta agree with the sticklers in revoking your medal on that one. Don't you have enough medals anyhoo? RE the FA guy: He must've been in his glory days on the FA - he's washed up now, evidently...?
Thanks to Russ for defining "style".
|
|
jason
Big Wall climber
London
|
|
Russ you are the man of the hour.
You have single handedly brought back the things I love about the Forum, wit and wild. Now what I really want to know is if I had 150 foot of pole, how many route can I do in the valley clipping from belay bolts to belay bolts.
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
|
|
Hello registered members...
I really think Russ is on too it, or at least pretty close. Unless the first ascent used one, it is pretty JV to use one. I have climbed Scorched Earth, it is pretty cool Randy L. used one instead of drilling a couple rivets, the fall isn't really too devastating if things went tits up if the hook blew. A college buddy made the 2nd ascent and said Valley folk gave him grief for not riveting the section.
Jim Beyer just added some nightmare (at least it sounds like it) cheater stick hooking next to the reticent wall (Martyr's Brigade), Disorderly Conduct sports mandatory cheater hooking. It seems like it boils down (on FA's) to speed and hole count.
outside of routes with real, not imagined, mandatory cheater stick hooking...seems like you are just cheating yourself. Aren't you trying to climb to climb? I mean skipping the aid on an aid climb seems odd, but then again so is aid climbing.
To claim a legit repeat of something using a stick that wasn't on the first ascent is truly BUNK!
If anyone cares during our repeat of SE my partner, Mark Santurbane, put up a new pitch requiring multiple 15 foot stick moves in a row, I was gripped just belaying him.
I can't recall ever using a stick to clip pro and avoid riding something nasty out, but I can recall tons of times when I have wanted to. It really does boil down to your own ethos. I've met Marc Twight, and don't really think he would care if you climb with one or not.
I ranting if circles, saying nothing...sorry
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
|
|
>>Now what I really want to know is if I had 150 foot of pole>>
Don't be silly... all of us aid climbers have "150ft poles".
Next....
Russ
|
|
James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
|
|
I just figured out how to make my own pole 12"
fold it in half
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!