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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 5, 2011 - 10:04am PT
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bought the Miramontes guide, cuz i got a deal on it at Flandersfest. Will probably buy the Vogel one too.
Not sure why i really need 7 JT guide books though.
Haven't really looked at either books yet, but i am sure they are both nice.
which one you going with, and why?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i wish alan bartlett would follow up on his approach. josh needs a thorough, comprehensive reference for everything, and it's really a monster for any author or publisher to keep up with. neither miramontes nor vogel's new "classic" does that. all these new guidebooks are useful, attempting to focus on certain types of climbers and their interests, rather than get into--what is it now?--the 4,000+ named and rated climbs out there.
i've got vogel's old, thick guidebook and i'm just annotating it with the new stuff i come across and get interested in.
i understand that bartlett's into a new career as drummer and sex symbol. nice to get promotions like that.
p.s. people now say 5,000+. i've been told you are not considered a local until you've "done" at least 1,000 of them. does "done" mean "climbed"?
vogel climbed 53 in a day to celebrate his 53rd birthday. at that rate, one could become a local in about 20 days.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Tony Bird;...there are over 8000 climbs in the Park now;...and with Randy's comprehensive Central coming out next fall.....you will have JT West and Central for the complete picture;.....then all you need to wait for it the Joshua Tree East and the sport guide....and you will be all set;....you will need a small cart or burro to help carry all the guides....but the information will be there......as far as Zip's question as to which one to buy......buy both;...they both can be quite useful, especially if you haven't climbed all the routes in both..................
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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I agree with Tony Bird. I am not a big fan of the 'classic guides,' I like to know what everything is. The west and central are the best options for sure. The new Vogel guide is almost a coffee table book. It is really beautiful, with history and extensive info it provides much to read and is probably great for most JT climbers. The miramonte is good looking as well, a beautiful guide that is a little more comprehensive than the Vogel classics.
Central is where it is going to be at!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Joshua Tree: 8000 routes, 300 of which are worth climbing.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oh, c'mon.....there are at LEAST 350 climbs worth doing......sheeez.....
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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A single, comprehensive book isn't really feasible anymore - there are simply too many routes in the Park now. I will still buy the complete books, because I want to have the info on everything and be able to see what options I have.
That said, these smaller "select" guides are much easier to carry around in the field once a general climbing plan for the trip has been decided on.
As a long time Joshua Tree climber, I also appreciate all of the background info and history that's included in these two newest books. All of this supplemental info really adds depth to my understanding and enjoyment of the Park and its routes. Thank you to both authors (and publishers) for their commitment to expanding their books' depth to include these types of things.
Both books are excellent offerings. If you can swing it financially, I definitely suggest getting both.
As for the local status: 1000 routes isn't really that hard to achieve when there are so many routes to choose from. Todd inspired me years ago to stop doing repeats and to try and always do new routes when I visited. I've come across and enjoyed many obscure routes as a result. I challenge everyone to expand their horizons and find some new favorites - they're out there waiting for you...
 Louie (just around the corner from Josh route #2000)
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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I compared the two at FlandersFest, and bought the Vogel guide.
I like the historical elements of his book, and although it has less climbs, it covers the best of the 5.5 through 5.11 range - pretty much the range for most of us. The guide just feels more personal to me than the Miramontes, and I already have the old Vogel guide if I need to pursue climbs "outside" of the parameters Randy set in this new guide.
My $0.02
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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DM has a point.
I take a book with me only about half the time I climb.
Haven't seen Vogel's yet but, Miramonte's was worth the coin, IMO.
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Murf
climber
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Full disclosure, I'm biased for Vogel guidebooks, although the man himself owes me a few apologies. My thoughts and impressions using both a bit.
RTM's guide does have a greater selection of routes, and it is lavish with photos. Many of the shots are inspirational and make you want to get out there and see it for yourself. It has that feel that many rough and tumble climbers love, a couple of words for a description and perhaps a rack recommendation. It has many modern publishing features with colors, markings, sun/shade recommendations that could be very useful.
That being said, the few times I have used it, I found it difficult to orient myself. The "Google Map" like map overlays have X's to show formation locations, are colored poorly, and were difficult for me to follow. The organization of some of the sections didn't flow and approach photo's were mixed in odd places, not directly with the crag they referenced. Also, I discovered an interesting issue with the crag photo's. There are tons of photos, but they are smaller and very "sectional". Josh is so intricate, and many portions of a crag look much like another, especially from far away. I would prefer less pictures, sized bigger, with an overall view of a crag.
I don't have a lot of complaints with the Vogel book so far (remember, I'm biased). It doesn't have the best action shots, and the number of routes is a small percentage of the overall (but a high percentage of the good ones!). That being said, the count is higher than likely 90% of the climbers who have gone to the park have done. I like the fact that bouldering is included, so that a traveling climber has a great resource for a visit.
It should be obvious to anyone who picks up Randy's book that it is a labor of love. Taking to heart every pitiful wail from clueless knob who can't find Saddle Rocks without a guide, the approach descriptions are complete and clear, with large area photos in many cases. The overlay topo maps are very clear, with significant formations outlined. For "super classic" formations, both photos and topos are available. Descriptions are detailed; it's obvious Vogel has climbed all the routes in the book and knows what he is talking about.
But far and away the history, anecdotes, and FA notes are my favorite features. It feels like you just climbed into a smoke filled VW, and are hanging out with the folks who were getting it done back in the day.
The bottom line? For your first guidebook to the area, of if you are passing through and need a great reference Randy's Classics is the one I'd pick up.
Murf
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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I've quit counting routes(stopped around 2,350 when I realized I just didn't care how many I climbed anymore; perhaps a function of getting older!) I would say eventually you will own both books, if you are a Josh aficionado. I don't think it matters which one you get first. What matters is that you are out there climbing, getting after it. I listened carefully to Doug's message at the party and it couldn't have been more apropos and puissant. I admit I lean toward Randy's tome, but that's just a simple prejudice. They are both fine books in their own "write". Sorry for the bad pun.
TY
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I'm still working from the last single volume guide Vogel put out, though I'm finally ready to spring for a new guide. I think it's going to be Miramontes. I don't have the time or resources to explore everything new in the Vogel guides. Josh East is probably years off, and the select will concentrate all the noobs in the same spots, most of which I probably don't need the guide to find anyways.
I could totally change my mind though. I've only got around 350-400 routes under my belt and I'll need some info on the newer stuff if I want to up that number or, more likely, just get away from the crowds.
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Murf
climber
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My impression looking through the Miramontes guide is that most of the new routes (eg not in the 1992 guide) in it were already in Joshua Tree West. Didn't seem like many from Echo onwards were included unless called out somehow on MP.com.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I bought one of the new Miramontes guides (autographed) at the Flandersfest, 'cause "it was there." That said, I'll probably spring for the new Vogel guide too. I now have the old red Wolfe guidebook, the purple Vogel, and the Winger "Trad Guide," as well as Miramontes. Sigh. I am an information junkie...
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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I have the Miramontes guide, 2600 routes. But so many of them are HARD routes.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Brokedownclimber: what, you don't have a full compliment of Bartlett guides? For shame!
Ha ha.
Got the Vogel guide from Randy at the party. Got a chance to look through it. Wow.
Wow wow wow.
I'm not like Donini: I like the history and stories. Photo's, layout, etc, top notch. And, there's even stars on some of the easier routes!
I'll probably pick up the other as I'm a bit of an info nympho.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Another vote for the Bartlett guides (discontinued). Here's why :
11.95 vs. 40.00$
Comprehensive
He doesn't downrate my routes!
p.s. would like to see FA styles included....ie top down, ground up as in Marty Lewis guides.
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Soulsurfer
Trad climber
San Diego, Ca
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How bout a guide book on avoiding the Rangers there. I think with all the rain we got this year, they must be growing at record rate! My last trip out there a few weeks ago I ran into, and got shaken down by a few. Any body else seen an increase in Park personal this year?
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snowey
Trad climber
San Diego
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I compared the Miramontes guide and the new Vogel classic guide at HVCG climbers coffee a couple of weeks ago. I think I am going to go with the Miramontes guide simply because of the quantity of routes. Miramontes did a brilliant job of balancing the number of routes with their quality. I wouldn't call his book a "classic" book rather just a "routes possibly worth doing" book.
I think that if you carry the Vogel Classics guide, which although beautiful, you will also need an additional guidebook for that region (or the old Vogel one). Otherwise you are left just doing one route in each area. For example, I went climbing at the IRS wall the other day. The Miramontes guide had ~15 routes on that wall of which we did 4. The Vogel guide only has 2 routes on that wall (Alf's Arete and Tax Man).
Full documentation of route history is important. However, maybe it should happen online rather than in everyone's backpacks.
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