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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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How GOD commands us to KILL, straight from the Word of God, the BIBLE.
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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GOD COMMANDS US TO KILL CHILDREN, direct from god to YOU
The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:10am PT
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Cool!
Hey, so who's this Gobee poster?
What kind of Christian is he, fundamentalist traditional Christian
or modern new-age "renascent" Christian? Seems from all this per diem stuff he posts, he's fundamentalist traditional?
modern renascent Christian: one who doesn't accept the "divinity of Jesus" claim (aka Jesus is God claim) or, for that matter, any of the supernaturalist doctrines, but lives the Christian narrative and/or Christian philosophy and therefore identifies with the term. Maybe because it works for him, for instance, or provides Comfort in hard times.
-There is a world of difference between fundamentalist traditional and modern renascent.
Basic principles: It IS important to always know what kind of Christian we have before us. Or what kind of Muslim we have before us. For any dialog to be meaningful. Or not.
P.S. Talk about per diem (per day)... Just read the first 100 posts. I'll do 100 every day till I catch up to the last post. Some good stuff in there! (Although for really the first time on the Taco, found myself in total disagreement with our mythological hero Largo. He needs to re-read the neuroscience.) In the end, Random House should get involved-- edit and print-- yeah, why not!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 06:32am PT
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Dr. F.-
I find it odd that you, an atheist, would feel it necessary to pass judgement on the Dalai Lama and declare that he's not enlightened. Why would you care one way or the other? That's about as ridiculous as the fundamentalists on this thread passing judgement on the other contributors by telling them they're going burn in hell forever.
From where I sit, you're mirror images of each other.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 08:26am PT
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Norton-
To me there's nothing more powerful than direct quotes. It's been so many years since I've read the Old Testament that I'd forgotten how many of those violent ones there are. I know I was turned off as a child when first confronted with them and have thought ever since that Christians would be better off to disassociate themselves altogether and let the teachings of Jesus stand on their own. The few good stories of human foibles in the Old Testament are not worth the overall impact the rest of it has if you actually read it all.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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Jan wrote- To me there's nothing more powerful than direct quotes.
Even so, not powerful enough, it seems, to move-- in intellect, in spirit-- the fundamentalist traditional Christian. Go figure.
A perennial mystery to me since the 1980s. (When I first read through them, that is, Norton's OT quotes.) But what more can one do nowadays other than nod his head in disbelief and disappointment and move on with his or her own belief discipline practice.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Interesting how "enlightenment" has disparate meanings vis a vis East and West.
"A final blessed state free from ignorance, desire and suffering"
or else
"To use one’s reason, intellect, and wisdom without the guidance of another."
And never the twain shall meet?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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In honor of Howard Zinn, who encouraged "looking critically" at our cultural fixtures, institutions and what drives them... a thought for the day:
Who's the more "insane"? Who's the more "mentally ill"?
(a) the fundamentalist Christian who "lives up to" Jehovah's Word* (in particular the Laws it contains in the OT) in action or...
(b) the (other kind of) fundamentalist Christian who says the same thing (it is God Jehovah's Word) yet doesn't "live up to" God Jehovah's Word in action.
*Scott Roeden (found guilty in Kansas of murder in Jan 2010) comes to mind, here... he was called insane, mentally ill, because he "lived up to," because he practiced, God Jehovah's edict in the OT: an eye for an eye.
Gandi- You must be the change you seek in the world.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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Any kind of fundamentalism ends up being a house of cards. They all ignore the obvious fact that if any one of them was truly the perfect revealed wisdom of some omnipotent being, then we would all instinctively know it; it would simply be a fact, like the existence of the sun--which is most likely what got the whole train of "mental speculation" rolling in the first place. A big ball of burning hydrogen floating in space, now there's something no one can deny.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Let me ask a question?
In the year 1 was the culture in the middle eastern region as mean and full of hatred as is expressed in the old testament?
Hard to believe. It was hard and then, just as is true now, people were being abused by those in power. But was this really the way it was in daily life? Surely there are historians out there who can answer?
Shall we presume it was not?
Then are we not safe also to presume that a young boy with a good heart growing up then might determine to do something to make the perceived guidance conform more closely to what people lived? This I can "believe."
Two thousand years later the same people always in search of power have to a degree, caused the same kind of perceived guidance to be infused into a book we know as the bible. Obedience. Obedience. Obedience.
We need each to look to ourselves. Ask what it is that we actually live. Ask how we can make the guidance conform more closely to what we live and admire.
Try to travel, in our own way, the path he chose.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Anyone can be a Christian, but there is only one Christ, who came out of Heaven! If you take Jesus out of Christianity then it is just religion! It is by His mercy through faith that we are saved, to love God, your brother, and to deny yourself and follow Him, to do what you know is right no matter what, is spirituality!
The Beginning of Knowledge
Proverbs 1:1-7, The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
to understand words of insight,
3 to receive instruction in wise dealing,
in righteousness, justice, and equity;
4 to give prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the youth—
5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning,
and the one who understands obtain guidance,
6 to understand a proverb and a saying,
the words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil of David.
Psalm 32, Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah
5 I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7 You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance. Selah
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the Lord.
11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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Jstan, much context can be gained from examining the law codes that preceded the Ten Commandments. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_legal_codes for starters)
Most of these laws were a byproduct of the rise of settled agriculture; others focused on perennial problems of sex and violence. They all indicate that, contrary to the bible-thumpers, golden-rule styles of ethics and morality were clearly conceived and codified as soon as people settled down in stable agricultural communities. Moses did nothing new except to refer authority over these things to his peculiar god, rather than to secular powers. As the leader of a tribe of wandering nomads, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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Cintune:
Now, we are getting somewhere!
Thank you.
Clearly when agriculture was being adopted, there would have been a mixture of the two cultures. Indeed even in our west when barbed wire was first used the two cultures were in substantial conflict.
I think an understanding of these temporal influences could, even today, help us to interpret "religion" and permit us actually "to read the bible."
Many of our problems today, as regards religion, may have arisen because we have entirely lost the context relevant to the rise of that religion.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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This life on earth is temporal, this is just the beginning, Heaven awaits!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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Gobee:
Was your post triggered simply by my use of the word "temporal?"
Edit.
Each of us needs to take care we are not functioning "reflexively."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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"Indeed... even in our west when barbed wire was first used the two cultures were in substantial conflict."
Barbed wire is used to keep people and animals in or out!
Jesus is inclusive, He will accept all who come to Him!
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MH2
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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It's an exceptionally bad plan then. Hell, I could do better.
I think I could, too. Why could God have not devoted at least a verse or two in the Bible to indoor plumbing?
I don't know if I'd be up to keeping the planets round, etc., though.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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"Each of us needs to take care we are not functioning "reflexively."
I believe there is a God and His Son Jesus, I also believe in Him, meaning that He loves us like a Father and only wants the BEST for US All, his ways are higher then are ways and at most points I have to defer to His ways because I only know what I know and He knows all, Father Knows Best!
Like a teenager I have "reflexively" rebelled against God, and just wanted to do what I wanted to do, thinking I might be missing out, but now think that what God tells us to do in the Bible is for our own good!
"I think I could, too. Why could God have not devoted at least a verse or two in the Bible to indoor plumbing?"
Mark 5:24-34, And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?” 31 And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 And he looked around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Uh, what?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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Are you REALLY SURE the bible is the direct word of god, and NOT written by humans?
Top Ten Biblical Contradictions. GOD OR HUMANS, WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?
Theological doctrines:
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
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