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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Furctos, I am "responding" to the numerous people who post on THIS thread
who take great pain to profess their LITERAL belief in the bible as the
direct word of god.
I feel that, as a supertopo member, I also have the same right as they
do to express my opinion about the literal interpretation of the bible.
Feeling this way, no offense to you Fructose, I have presented sections
of the bible that "seem" to me to be possibly inconsistent with their view.
Is that ok with you?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Sorry, Norton, carry on.
I guess I was just feeling a little frustrated in the moment.
You see, waaaayyy back in the 80s, when I read the Testaments (not the first time, btw), I compiled by own notes as yours. Still have them, in fact. It was unbelievable what the Books of Moses said (how mean, vindictive, jealous Yahweh was, etc.) yet it seemed everyone about wasn't interested to hear about it or to get any traction from it.
So now, for me at least, it's on to an alternate interest, alternate strategy. That boils down to less arguing, more remodeling. More remodeling, say on a basis of the nature intelligibility principle (that nature works in accordance with laws and we can learn them and apply them) and life guidance and life strategies.
But no doubt the Four Horsemen (I think you know who I'm alluding to here) and you perform a valuable service. Kudos.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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777:
I am not a relativist but I'll try to kick off the answer to your question.
But first a story.
One of the professors at the university I attended had been one of Einstein's two docents. His
sentences in class invariably contained the words "manifestly covariant." A mild little fellow you
would never ever want to cross. We were at a dinner meeting on Infrared Technology nowdays
used in satellites, missiles, and wherever else you choose to look for it. The evening speaker was
having trouble being heard over the whir of a floor fan. Three or four experimental professors
went over to fiddle with the switch to see if they could still the beast, to no noticeable effect.
Then Peter Bergmann, very unobtrusively got up from the table, walked over to the wall and
pulled the plug.
I tell the story because it was then that I learned never ever to underestimate a relativist.
In 1905 Einstein voiced a truly earth shaking hypothesis that the presence of matter actually
distorts physical space. We think so easily in terms of a three axis coordinate system where the
axes are obviously straight lines. Well, the real world is not as we imagine it. Around the time of
WWI measurements of the perihelion of Mercury confirmed that the light from Mercury was
actually being bent as it passed by another celestial body. The timing of the perihelion was
WRONG. Einstein's hypothesis now allows us to use GPS instruments to find where we are on
earth, to an accuracy of feet.
But your question.
"how something came from nothing. Just the basic question of where did it ORIGINATE!"
As I am sure you know Einstein also suggested mass was convertable into energy. At least to the
eye, matter can be made to disappear. I am also sure I don't need to tell you how dramatic
demonstrations of this principle can be. Equal to 100,000,000 tons of TNT, in an instant.
The answer to your question is tied up with Einstein's relativity theory, now confirmed so
thoroughly people are quoting the age of the universe as we know it to four digits. Something
just under 14,000,000,000 earth years. Some 10,000 times further back even than Ardi.
The critical word you used was "WHERE". At the instant of the very strongly confirmed "Big Bang"
model, everything of which we know was located at a single geometric point. Such a thing is
called a "singularity." A place where any equation you write BLOWS UP. Now here is where
Einstein comes in full force. At that instant space was so distorted by all of the mass "WHERE" is a
very big question. I believe some, perhaps all, are saying that point was ALL OF SPACE. There
wasn't anything else. You asked "where?" It appears at this time the answer is - from everywhere.
Had you asked a question as to "WHEN?" the answer would be the same. Time is not a simple
clicking clock either thanks to relativity. It behaves fairly well in different inertial frames( where
there is no acceleration) but there was a lot of acceleration at the Bang. Indeed the Inflationary
Model for the first few nanoseconds after the Bang the present clumpiness of matter in the
universe forces us to assume the thing moved outward faster than the speed of light. Inflation.
Now just as we imagined space was a nice three axis model with straight lines some of us
imagine something called "perfect knowledge" or "absolute truth."
It may give us confidence to think such things exist. But that confidence comes at a price.
"Believing" that now will make your adjustment that much more disturbing when you have to give
up that idea. Better to understand you do not know everything than it is to put down a false
anchor and to be deceived.
It's your choice.
Indeed these days our lack of perfect knowledge is more exciting than any knowledge could
possibly be. Almost nothing I descibed above was known just 100 years ago. Let me ask you.
Do you think you right now are prepared to help answer the huge problems we face here on
earth in the next 100 years?
That's probably about how much time we have.
We don't have another 2000 years.
Edit. Gobee messed up the frame making it hard to read everyone else's stuff. After fixing mine I
also calculated how many times you can fit 6000 years into fourteen billion.
2.3 million times
All of the data we have agrees that your estimate is off by 2.3 million to one.
Pretty perfect huh?
Ardi has been dated to something like 4 million years BP. The solar system is dated at about four
billion years. In that length of time Ardi could have evolved into us some 1000 times.
Judging by what I read in the newspapers, I don't think he did it that often. Had he done it that
many times he would surely have got it right.
You and I are just a first rough draft. Prototypes.
There definitely was lots of time for bacteria, fish, mammals and just about anything else.
Heck, if there were survival value in it by now we would probably have been able to go watch fish
playing badminton.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Fructose!
Nothing created a big bang then there was matter...hmmmmnnnnn.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Possibly, yes, it is the best theory the best minds on our planet have
right now.
What's wrong with that?
It sure is NOT "proof" that there is a big guy in the sky.
AND neither is it proof that there is NOT a guy in the sky.
It just is what it is.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Possibly, yes, it is the best theory the best minds on our planet have
right now.
What's wrong with that?
It sure is NOT "proof" that there is a big guy in the sky.
AND neither is it proof that there is NOT a guy in the sky.
It just is what it is.
Nice! Well said, Norton
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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777:
You are satisfied only to know everything. Much of what I described has been discovered since you
were born. If you had constructed some edifice to put into your lack of knowledge, AND if you
wanted to be undeluded, you would now have to give up everything you had constructed. That's
what I was saying at the end.
It's still your choice.
This really reminds me of what used to happen in what, third grade. Two kids fighting would say I
know more than you! To triumph one would say I know EVERYTHING! The truth?
Both knew what third graders know. Happiness and the chance to contribute to others is a matter of
understanding that and in being determined to learn more.
To grow.
Still your choice.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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I wish Werner is right, your free when your dead. But the Bible doesn't say that. Your spouse is free to remarry, though!
I believe what the Bible says is truth and like that sage Norwegian says, I eat those words!
I post here because in this life climbing is the coolest thing I ever did, and the people I climbed with are the coolest! But God is the coolest ever! I'm a lazy bum and sometimes I feel like I'll never post here again, I love Jesus and most don't care and worse, but then I remember what He went through for me, I can't stop saying I love Him!
Since it cost a lot to win
and even more to lose
You and me bound to spend some time
wondring what to choose...
Robert Hunter
The Words of Agur
The words of Agur son of Jakeh. The oracle.
Proverbs 30:1-4, The man declares, I am weary, O God;
I am weary, O God, and worn out.
2 Surely I am too stupid to be a man.
I have not the understanding of a man.
3 I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son's name?
Surely you know!
Joy Comes with the Morning
A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple.
Psalm 30, I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up
and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried to you for help,
and you have healed me.
3 O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.
4 Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints,
and give thanks to his holy name.
5 For his anger is but for a moment,
and his favor is for a lifetime.
Weeping may tarry for the night,
but joy comes with the morning.
6 As for me, I said in my prosperity,
“I shall never be moved.”
7 By your favor, O Lord,
you made my mountain stand strong;
you hid your face;
I was dismayed.
8 To you, O Lord, I cry,
and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
9 “What profit is there in my death,
if I go down to the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it tell of your faithfulness?
10 Hear, O Lord, and be merciful to me!
O Lord, be my helper!”
11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing;
you have loosed my sackcloth
and clothed me with gladness,
12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent.
O Lord my God, I will give thanks to you forever!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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HFCS!
I have had more than enough unde-grad/post-grad science. And I have a B.S. degree.
BTW- 99.9% of the posters here know who the 4Hmen of A are!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Trip- then you should get the meaning in Jstan's posts and Norton's post.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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jstan- "Reconstruct"
I never met your mother, as far as I am concerned she doesn't exist.
Doesn't mean she doesn't/didn't exist.
That would be the equivalent of what you are asking me to do. It is as real to me as your mother, or my mother are to both of us.
Ask any Christian.
I can understand/relate to your disbelief.
You can't relate to our belief.
The Creator of the universe is fully capable of revealing Himself to you. You won't allow Him to.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Werner's post prompts me to tell another story.
My first year in grad school I was taking an exam. The teacher assumed we had learned all the
subjects he had lectured upon so he tested us on theories, had I been diligent, I would have picked
up in my independent reading. Throughout the exam a young chinese student in the back was
swearing non stop. He got a forty. I got a zero. I have not the slightest doubt he was more
disappointed in himself than I was in myself.
I learned something one hundred times more valuable than that course material. It is literally
impossible to know the limits of intelligence and the drive to learn. If we do not know those limits
for others we should not assume we know our own. Only one course of action exists. To decide
where it is we wish to go and then to apply every possible effort and every minute available to us -
to get there.
That path is not lined with questions and regrets.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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I've seen her before.
If I were 20 years younger, she'd be in trouble...
"Blonds for evolution"
-Another fine t-shirt possibility...
Oh, and Dr. F., check out that comment at youtube:
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."
My pick for quote of the day.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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Theory .... means speculation and guessing. Definitely not the best minds.
The best minds do not guess .....
.....ummm werner, look down, look up, now repeat. OK... just checking to see if your head's still screwed on tight!
Dude, you've got issues. This stuff really floats around in your head on a daily basis? I'd prescribe: Fluovoxamine, amitriptyline then come see me again in 6 months when the voices go away! now don't use any alcohol or CNS depressents while you're on these or it'll throw the whole works out a wack...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:31am PT
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You guys really were busy over there while I was sleeping away in Japan.
jstan in particular seems to be on a roll.
I'm short on time so will leave you with a highly relevant quote from the Dalai Lama which was forwarded to me by Snow Lion Publications. I get a Dalai Lama quote from them every week.
I believe there is an important distinction to be made between religion and spirituality. Religion I take to be concerned with belief in the claims to salvation of one faith tradition or another--an aspect of which is acceptance of some form of metaphysical or philosophical reality, including perhaps an idea of heaven or hell. Connected with this are religious teachings or dogma, ritual, prayers and so on.
Spirituality I take to be concerned with those qualities of the human spirit--such as love and compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, a sense of responsibility, a sense of harmony, which bring happiness to both self and others. While ritual and prayer, along with questions of nirvana and salvation are directly connected with religious faith, these inner qualities need not be, however.
There is thus no reason why the individual should not develop them, even to a high degree, without recourse to any religious or metaphysical belief system. This is why I sometimes say religion is something we can perhaps do without. What we cannot do without are these basic spiritual qualities.
--from "The Pocket Dalai Lama" by the Dalai Lama, compiled and edited by Mary Craig .
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jstan
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:25am PT
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Jan:
Don't know as I am on a roll but I love the stuff I am hearing said overseas. The words are being defined so I know what is being said. I would have hated living in Rome at the end.
Wes:
Really exciting advances in this month's Physics Today. I have queried them to see if I may post selected articles.
For the first time we are beginning to get some angular resolution on the positions of sources for cosmic rays. Bigger detector arrays. Modelling wise it appears the particles from supernovae are making multiple passes through explosion shock waves.
And even more spectacular a summary article on detection of gravity waves. Timing variations of extremely regular pulses from very distant pulsars are becoming sufficiently studied to offer promise that in 10 years we may be able to study gravity waves in the same way we have mined information from all wavelengths of light. If so we may well be able to study dark energy and dark matter, things that make up most of the universe's contents. We may be standing on the brink of seeing the bulk of what is in the universe for the very first time.
Data suggesting the universe’s rate of expansion is increasing not decreasing implies we need not look forward to multiple big bang cycles. We are only going to get thinner, colder and ever more distant. At least as based on the data so far in hand. This is apparently going to be our only trip. Frankly, I don’t know how the people doing this work are able to get any sleep.
I think this 200 year period, if we manage to survive, will be seen as a blooming of human knowledge comparable to the social advances made during the renaissance. Most remarkable. We are privileged to be here to see it.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 06:26am PT
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I personally think he rather over romanticizes the ancient Greeks.
Haha! That happens a lot.
Yes, the Dalai Lama is a wonderful example. Local radio interviewed his brother, who lives in Vancouver, and whatever they call their outlook, religion, philosophy, whatnot, they are good people with a great sense of humor and matter-of-fact approach.
Thanks to jstan for recent contributions. One of our kids, the math talent, got a brief message from a friend that went like this: "If you had told me on New Year's Eve ten years ago that today I would be driving a VW to a [gravitational interferometer] in rural South Carolina(?), I would not have been surprised."
edit: now think it was a laser interferometry gravitational observatory but still not sure which southeastern US state
Or, as friends in Africa would say when amused by Western planning for the future, "But what of now?"
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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Proverbs 31:1-9, The words of King Lemuel. An oracle that his mother taught him:
2 What are you doing, my son? What are you doing, son of my womb?
What are you doing, son of my vows?
3 Do not give your strength to women,
your ways to those who destroy kings.
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
it is not for kings to drink wine,
or for rulers to take strong drink,
5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed
and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
8 Open your mouth for the mute,
for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
defend the rights of the poor and needy.
Into Your Hand I Commit My Spirit
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 31, In you, O Lord, do I take refuge;
let me never be put to shame;
in your righteousness deliver me!
2 Incline your ear to me;
rescue me speedily!
Be a rock of refuge for me,
a strong fortress to save me!
3 For you are my rock and my fortress;
and for your name's sake you lead me and guide me;
4 you take me out of the net they have hidden for me,
for you are my refuge.
5 Into your hand I commit my spirit;
you have redeemed me, O Lord, faithful God.
6 I hate those who pay regard to worthless idols,
but I trust in the Lord.
7 I will rejoice and be glad in your steadfast love,
because you have seen my affliction;
you have known the distress of my soul,
8 and you have not delivered me into the hand of the enemy;
you have set my feet in a broad place.
9 Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am in distress;
my eye is wasted from grief;
my soul and my body also.
10 For my life is spent with sorrow,
and my years with sighing;
my strength fails because of my iniquity,
and my bones waste away.
11 Because of all my adversaries I have become a reproach,
especially to my neighbors,
and an object of dread to my acquaintances;
those who see me in the street flee from me.
12 I have been forgotten like one who is dead;
I have become like a broken vessel.
13 For I hear the whispering of many—
terror on every side!—
as they scheme together against me,
as they plot to take my life.
14 But I trust in you, O Lord;
I say, “You are my God.”
15 My times are in your hand;
rescue me from the hand of my enemies and from my persecutors!
16 Make your face shine on your servant;
save me in your steadfast love!
17 O Lord, let me not be put to shame,
for I call upon you;
let the wicked be put to shame;
let them go silently to Sheol.
18 Let the lying lips be mute,
which speak insolently against the righteous
in pride and contempt.
19 Oh, how abundant is your goodness,
which you have stored up for those who fear you
and worked for those who take refuge in you,
in the sight of the children of mankind!
20 In the cover of your presence you hide them
from the plots of men;
you store them in your shelter
from the strife of tongues.
21 Blessed be the Lord,
for he has wondrously shown his steadfast love to me
when I was in a besieged city.
22 I had said in my alarm,
“I am cut off from your sight.”
But you heard the voice of my pleas for mercy
when I cried to you for help.
23 Love the Lord, all you his saints!
The Lord preserves the faithful
but abundantly repays the one who acts in pride.
24 Be strong, and let your heart take courage,
all you who wait for the Lord!
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