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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Netanyahu has only one goal - continue occupying and settling lands gained since '67 and avoid any form of settlement with the Palestinians (and do it all on our dime). Period, end of story.

They took the land fair and square and aren't giving it back no matter what unless it further isolates the Palestinians as in Gaza - they just lack the sincerity and integrity to simply say what they really believe and do and that's largely because of our annual largess. On a financial basis Israel is our 51st state and because of it we are entirely complicit in the sham that is Israel's 'participation' in the peace process.

The upshot of this relationship is lots of Americans dying in the Mideast over the years and that's not going to change anytime soon. Our involvements in the Gulf, Iraq, and Afghanistan wars are a direct consequence of Israel's intractability on the issue. President after president have been burned trying to broker peace with Israel and the Bush administration thought they could do an end run around the 'Israeli problem' by invading Iraq as the "right domino: to bring about the neocon's fantasy of a [western-style] democracy in the Mideast.

That 'strategy' was naive in the extreme and Israel has no more interest in 'peace' today then they did 50 years ago. It's all bullsh#t, smoke screens, and PC talk they think people want to hear and there isn't an honest on-the-record voice in the Netanyahu government outside of the radical far right parties.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Not only that but they have another issue they never have settled but let slide through the years but now is getting bigger.

A short excerpt more by hitting the article below.

The Rise of Settler Terrorism

The West Bank’s Other Violent Extremists

Late this past June, a group of Israeli settlers in the West Bank defaced and burned a mosque in the small West Bank village of Jabaa. Graffiti sprayed by the vandals warned of a "war" over the planned evacuation, ordered by the Israeli Supreme Court, of a handful of houses illegally built on private Palestinian land near the Israeli settlement of Beit El. The torching of the mosque was the fourth such attack in 18 months and part of a wider trend of routine violence committed by radical settlers against innocent Palestinians, Israeli security personnel, and mainstream settler leaders -- all aimed at intimidating perceived enemies of the settlement project.

This violence has not always plagued the settler community. Although many paint all Israeli settlers as extremists, conflating them with the often-justified criticism of Israeli government policy in the West Bank, the vast majority of them oppose attacks against Palestinian civilians or the Israeli state. In the past, Israeli authorities and the settler leadership often worked together to prevent such assaults and keep radicalism at bay. Yet in recent years, the settler movement has experienced a profound breakdown in discipline, with extremists now beyond the reach of either Israeli law enforcement or the discipline of settler leaders
Extremist settlers mimic the typical methods of terrorist groups across the globe.

Recently, Israeli leaders have begun to recognize the problem. Following extremist vandalism against the IDF and mainstream settler leaders over the past year, some Israeli generals and government ministers began to label radical settlers as terrorists. Now, the Israeli government should translate that bold rhetoric into decisive action. To begin with, it should officially designate the perpetrators of violence as terrorists and disrupt their activities more aggressively. Security agencies should then enforce Israeli law, prosecuting violent settlers as they would terrorists, Palestinian or Israeli. And to slow the tide of radicalism, Israeli leaders must denounce extremists and shun their representatives, placing particular pressure on religious leaders who incite violence. Meanwhile, the United States and other countries seeking to revive the peace talks must encourage Israel to take these steps before things worsen. Washington should itself consider designating violent radical settlers as terrorists and should push Israel to crack down on them. Settler extremism tarnishes Israel's name and imperils its future. Friends of Israel, the Israeli government, and even those who support the settlements in the West Bank should fight back against this dangerous phenomenon.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137825/daniel-byman-and-natan-sachs/the-rise-of-settler-terrorism?page=show

For sure you will not see this happening if Romney gets in but hopefully Netanyahu will be gone by then.


Or for better words: Israel must confront its homegrown terrorism problem.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
(Posted in absentia for Jeff, who has left the building) If it boils down to only one goal, I would suggest that survival of Jews would be the one shared by all Jews, Netanyahoooo included. Everything else revolves around that. Everyone else (Goyim) just seem to shrug their shoulders and go: "meh, they're just jews". Somehow forgetting the takeover of the embassy, and figuring that an Iranian bomb won't affect us or the rest of the world outside of Israel. It will.

ONE GOAL 2 GOALS 2 GOALS 4. 5 GOALS 6 GOALS 7 GOALS MORE. The clock is winding down, they need all the goals they can get. Interesting article follows, especially the 2nd half of it.

"Measuring every step
Posted September 7, 2012 by josephwouk


Israel Hayom | Measuring every step.

Sensing U.S. President Barack Obama’s weak-kneed approach toward them, Iran’s leaders are permitting themselves to make bold, extreme threats • Nonetheless, they are sleeping with one eye open, as they are well aware that they risk inviting a massive, devastating American assault if they dare go too far • The race for the bomb shifts into high gear.
Reuven Berko
Iran’s leaders are proceeding cautiously but determinedly in their quest for mastery of nuclear technology and perhaps weaponry as well.


American attempts to allow the ayatollah’s regime in Iran to save face and honorably retreat from their nuclear ambitions have been for nothing. In Middle Eastern culture, courtly gestures of this sort are inevitably looked upon as signs of weakness. The Americans, to whom this culture is alien, are now left with no choice. The contempt and scorn heaped upon America by Iran’s leaders during their recent appearance at the Non-Aligned Movement summit effectively made a mockery of U.S. President Barack Obama, the “champion” of an approach that favors dialogue with various extremist Islamists.

In recent years, the American defense umbrella has been increasingly perceived as hesitant and worn out by both its allies in the region and its adversaries. This is mainly due to the fallout from the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the battered American economy, and the closely contested presidential election that means, for all intents and purposes, that all major strategic decisions are on hold.

The Sunni Muslim Arab states, along with Turkey are watching with alarm as a coalition led by Shiite Iran (which, with the backing of Russia and China, is promoting a vision of a new world order), is butchering their brethren in Syria, while the U.S. and NATO stand on the sidelines, unable to intervene. Recent statements by U.S. officials attest to the fact there is now a new bipartisan consensus whereby the world’s mightiest superpower must rebuild its battered image and regain its preeminent position in the eyes of both its allies and enemies.

Iran, ever mindful of the domestic scene in the U.S., is in a race against time. If Iran succeeds in quickly building an atomic weapon before the Americans come to their senses, it will irreversibly position itself as a member of a new, violent club. Going nuclear will enable Iran to do something it has not been able to do in the past – impose an expansionist agenda and “right a wrong” by asserting dominance over the Gulf region and the Arab oil sheikdoms. It will also be able to deal a blow to Saudi Arabia, the entity which most embodies the bitter, centuries-long rivalry between Sunnis and Shiites.

The remarks made by Iranian officials before and during the NAM summit left little room for doubt. If one were to judge by their rhetoric, Iran’s self-confidence appears to be at an all-time high. How else to explain their bombastic arrogance and their boastful intention of one day evicting America from the Middle East and establishing a new world order, with Israel and the U.S. on the outside looking in? Such blunt statements would never be made if the ayatollah’s terrorist state did not perceive itself on the cusp of going online with its nuclear project.

Iran’s mischief is not limited to words. The regime has undertaken provocative maritime actions near Abu Musa, the tiny island in the eastern Persian Gulf whose sovereignty has been a point of dispute with United Arab Emirates. Iran has also exacerbated tensions with its tiny neighbor Bahrain. The most recent report commissioned by the International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed suspicions that Iran is progressing rapidly toward assembling a nuclear bomb, hence the regime feels its braggadocio is justified.

Those who are well acquainted with intelligence and concealing information know full well that there is still much we don’t know, and that the IAEA and the west have only touched the tip of the iceberg of the Iranian nuclear program. Tehran has made this possible by denying international inspectors full access to its facilities. The IAEA and Western diplomats do not have the full picture of Iran’s secret program to develop nuclear weapons.

The assumption guiding policy in Moscow and Beijing, the two governments that back Iran and its patrons (the Iraq-Syria-Hezbollah axis), holds that the state of paralysis in which the U.S. and NATO find themselves prevents them from going after their ally, the bloodthirsty regime of Bashar al-Assad.

These factors are inhibiting the U.S., which has historically tended to assume an isolationist stance and to attack only when it is physically hit (like in Pearl Harbor and the 9/11 atrocities), denying it the ability to go after Iran. This is why it is likely that Russia and China will continue to operate according to this assumption, even if Mitt Romney, the Republican nominee who has made hawkish statements regarding Iran, replaces Obama in the White House. The Russian-Chinese-Iranian perception of American weakness will only gain more traction once Iran comes into possession of a nuclear weapon. The atomic bomb will elevate Iran to the position of hegemon in the Gulf region at the expense of the Americans.

This state of affairs is compounded by the widely held view that Obama has little use or interest in Israel and the Middle East. What really matters to Obama is winning re-election, which explains why his election campaign can be summed up by the famous phrase, “It’s the economy, stupid.” Obama’s vice president, Joe Biden, seemed to confirm this sentiment when he accused Romney of being ready to drag the U.S. into a war with Syria and Iran.

In light of this situation, Israel’s decision to send up a cry for help is a good move, as it focuses world attention on the threat facing Israel in the event that Iran, whose government openly expresses its wish to liquidate the Jewish state, arms itself with nuclear weapons. The disadvantage is that it temporarily obfuscates the real, genuine threat posed by Iran’s ever-tightening nuclear noose on the Western world as well as Arab states.

The full scope of the danger has not been adequately appreciated until just recently. Western intelligence assessments indicate a shift in attitude toward Iran, one that is more closely in tune with Israeli assessments. This shift, however, is more a byproduct of Western interests, rather than the interests of the Jewish state.

Through Iranian eyes

Iranian leaders deserve a round of applause for their threats to wipe Israel off the map. By appealing to the incited masses, they have created the conditions for any Arab state that collaborates with a military strike on Iran to be perceived as one who opposes “the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem.” We witnessed a similar spectacle in 1991, when Saddam Hussein launched Scud missiles at Israel and Israel was forced to turn the other cheek for fear that any retaliation would lead to a collapse of the Western-Arab coalition against Iraq.

If I were an Iranian intelligence officer, I would take note of the fact that since its existence, Israel has assumed a purely defensive stance, preferring to avoid friction and conflict with its neighbors, including Iran. As such, I would assume that Israel would not hasten to attack Iran unless it felt it had to undertake a strictly defensive action that it viewed as essential. This assumption stems from a number of factors, including Israel’s size, its relative lack of resources, and its ability to inflict damage on an actor that threatens its defenses.

This line of thinking, which holds that the probability of an Israeli attack is low, should also take into account the many adversaries who are eagerly hoping that Israel’s position becomes weaker. Nonetheless, I would not ignore Israel’s purported capability to inflict apocalyptic damage in any second strike against any one of its enemies should the need arise.

I would still, however, take caution over the IAEA’s recent report, which expresses the Western belief that Iran is in the advanced stages of developing a nuclear weapon, and that therefore there is no alternative but to attack. Any military operation would not be carried out for Israel’s sake, but rather for America, which is eager to recover its waning prestige as a regional power, and to reduce threats to its interests and those of its allies, irrespective of the aforementioned reservations.

A preemptive American strike, which would be perceived as being carried out at the behest of, and in cooperation with, Israel, will probably prove beneficial to Obama ahead of the upcoming elections. But it would damage the element of surprise and complicate his vital task of building a coalition with Arab states and Turkey.

Since Israeli involvement would spoil the element of surprise, make it more difficult to build this coalition, and make it harder to gain public sympathy for an attack, even among the target audience (Iran’s internal oppositionists), it is reasonable to assume that Obama would have to take Israel out of the game despite the temporary damage it would do to his political standing among U.S. Jews. But in any case, this would only be short-lived if the attack goes ahead before the elections.

If I were an Iranian intelligence officer, my assessment would take into account that any possible attack would be waged from the air so as not to put American forces at significant risk. Hence the chances that the attack would succeed are relatively higher than the damage that one can expect to be inflicted on American interests and those of their allies in the region, and higher than the damage that can be expected if they wait for Iran to come into possession of a nuclear bomb before attacking.

I would note that a preemptive strike on Iran would elevate Obama, the man who took out Osama bin Laden, into the pantheon of great American leaders, right alongside those that led the nation to victory in World War II. If he loses the election, Obama will miss a historic opportunity to do so.

If I were an Iranian intelligence officer, I would point out that Obama is currently in the midst of a dilemma. If an American attack fails to destroy the nuclear project and to generate a wave of anti-regime sentiment that would eventually bring about the ouster of the government, the president will be blamed for undertaking a populist ploy that lacked wall-to-wall consensus, a pre-election gimmick. Nonetheless, I would conclude that under the present circumstances, Obama would be willing to take that risk and attack.

Telltale signs

Experience teaches us that Obama believes in deceiving the enemy before an attack. This was how his people acted in the days leading to the assassination of bin Laden. All of the “telltale signs” indicate that Obama is “evicting” Israel from the equation as part of his sleight of hand strategy. These signs include the blunt statements delivered by U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey, the downsizing of U.S. troops scheduled to participate in joint military maneuvers with Israel, and the deliberately orchestrated frictions between the Obama administration and the Israeli government.

The Iranians must anxiously prepare for the red lines that the Obama administration is set to spell out. This time, there will be no more play on words or “dialogue.” Rather, it will be an ironclad commitment to take action. As such, Iran should view with suspicion the recent criticism by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of Turkey, an ally and fellow member of NATO. Instead, Iran should be concerned by the emerging military partnership between Turkey and the U.S. as well as the scheduled visit to Ankara by the head of the CIA, David Petraeus, this coming Sunday.

Iran can no longer accept the Turkish explanation that its military preparations are the byproduct of Ankara’s frustration over its inability to establish a safe zone for Syrian refugees within Syria. Iranian officials would do well to understand that the Americans are intent on dealing with the “symptoms” in Syria by means of eliminating the virus in Iran.

We now know that the Iranians, who have yet to fully grasp the scale of the American-made destruction heading their way, continue to manufacture the bomb. Their analysis of the “telltale signs” has led them to hold an anti-aircraft exercise next month. They are indeed preparing for an American attack.

Like any rat on a sinking ship, we now have the anxiety-stricken Hezbollah secretary-general Hassan Nasrallah making noise and issuing hysterical threats at the behest of his Iranian masters. Nasrallah warned of missile barrages against civilian targets in Israel. This is another one of the “telltale signs” that Iran and its satellites know well – that the moment of truth is imminent.

In order to explain the game of diplomacy, snooker is the preferred metaphor used by bespectacled professors who teach international relations and political science. The application of force against states is similar to the way in which a snooker ball hits another ball as part of a chain reaction. This helps the player to hit the target and down the ball into the appropriate hole.

According to the snooker method, a decisive American blow in Iran would halt the nuclear program. But, no less importantly, it would deal a death blow to the murderous regime in Damascus. Such a blow would signal to the axis of evil – China and Russia – that America “means business.”

The snooker effect would also reach terrorist states like North Korea and organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, which we have noted is already showing signs of panic. Such an operation would bolster U.S. allies, solidify the quid pro quo basis of relations and defense ties between Western states and the Arab oil producers, provide a boost to Turkey and the NATO alliance, and cut Russia and China back down.

This is the way for America to return to its rightful place as the enlightened superpower and global hegemon. Obama, it’s your turn. Step up to the plate and take a swing."






‘Next 50 Days Most Fateful Since Yom Kippur War’ – Defense/Security – News – Israel National News.
Former Head of Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, Tzachi Hanegbi, hints at timetable for Iran attack.
By Gil Ronen

First Publish: 9/6/2012, 9:54 PM


50 days. 50.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 18, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j8YTcHzPr8qkQj8Be68BkdE6L1pA?docId=CNG.bbe1d6490ab6ef1279c6c7aa83c20199.261
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 24, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
AWESOME news. Can someone let Jeff know that Morsi has apologized and it's all good. Whew. Full text and link:

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/exclusive-apology-letter-from-president-morsi/

"Earlier today, we reported that Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi reportedly implied that the Jews control the US media and have distorted comments he made in the past about Zionists being “bloodsuckers” and “descendants of apes and pigs.”

In a Times of Israel exclusive, here is an official letter just received by President Morsi.

To the admirable President Peres:

Shalom/salaam from Cairo.

It has come to my attention that a video recently surfaced of me calling Jews and Zionists “bloodsuckers” and “the descendants of apes and pigs.”

I would like to clear the air immediately and make it understood — in no uncertain terms — that some of my best friends are apes and pigs. It is most regrettable that this has happened between two nations who have been operating under a peace agreement for over thirty years (especially because I thought I had changed my video’s settings to “private”.)

I have been humbled by this misunderstanding and have already learned many a lesson since taking office. For example, I have learned that while apes and pigs have no sense of humor, they command great dexterity at operating Youtube.

I do not in fact believe that this incident was a result of Zionist news bias as was insinuated, although you must admit that the Jews do hold a disproportionate control over the media, especially in Israel.

I do hope we can put this most regrettable incident behind us and move forward as allies and partners.

In conclusion, I offer my apologies for believing that Jews descended from unicorns pixies duck-billed platypus Captain Hook apes and pigs.

Respectfully yours,

President Mohammed Morsi"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:44am PT
If a fat bald white guy all of sudden starts bumping this idioitc thread, then we know Fattrad is back.

Hope springs eternal in the human breast.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 20, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
Just can't help yourself eh Dafty?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 7, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
Me and Fatty warned the world about this stuff for years.

Now, the Intl' community is but-hurt because 284 girls are now abducted by Islamists. The group is called Boko Harm, meaning Western education is forbidden.

That is why they took these school-girls. The girls are probably being raped and sold-off for sex as we speak.

They just shot-up a town in the Northeast border town of Cameroon.

What would the US do?

Just to illustrate the blindness of the stupid f*#king West too focused on Kardashians, let me share a map of Nigeria that I have tracked aand updated since 2009.

Each Yellow balloon on the map is a terrorist action (Boko Haram) and the blue balloons are LEO ops against them. Please look:

https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=217892262123461097139.00047d7300789724c91fa&msa=0&ll=8.320212,8.986816&spn=12.930925,21.643066
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 7, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
If I've been saying this for YEARS, how is this selective? Did you open the map? Do you want to see the Southern Caucasus map? In case you forgot, that is the origins of the 2 little boys in Boston who blew the legs of little girls and scoured a little boy with so much schrapnel that he died on the scene.

EDIT:
Your selective outrage is more insulting than what you think your upset about, Johnson.

What would qualify as equal outrage? Chicago?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Doesn't matter one way or the other Johnson. Fundamentalist klingons are doomed and apparently prefer to use a climbing forum to display their demise.

Good of you to resurrect this thread, it's just what a climbing forum needed. In that way you do honor fattard.


So you have nothing to say about girls being sex-slaved by Boko-Haram?

I'm not honoring Fatty, I'm just trying to tell to that we warned you about this.

It will get worse.

Boston Bombing was just a middle-section of this ongoing problem I've warned you f*#ks about. Fatty did too.

These people openly state they want to kill you. All they have to do is breach our borders.

Whether a legal Visa that wasn't checked out, or running over the SO Cal border.

You'll wake up when it touches your family or friends. But then it may be too late.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:29am PT
The Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah has already infiltrated our country in 2 different ways.

The Muslim Brotherhood that Mubarak rejected, and the current regime rejects as too Islamist for Egypt, has infiltrated our government. It started with Huma Abeddin, miss Clinton's advisor. Egypt and Libya?

What you f*#ks don't understand is that while MOrsi and Ghaddafi were SOBs, they hated thet MB because they were totalitarians. Morsi and Ghaddafi were not, they were somewhat friends our ours.

Somebody decided to destabilize the entire North Coast of Africa while Morsi and Ghaddafi said, "you don't know what you're reaping".

They were right!

And it spead to Benghazi...and then Syria.

There is so much sh#t people dont know about this stuff.

What's crazy is that it is the job of the Sec of State to realize all this, but SHE didn't.

It looks like an intentional job to create chaos. Or amateur hour.

It goes deeper....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:32am PT
I do find it more than curious that Obama seems unmoved by Africans' plight but is all wrought
about Ukrainians. He sent a few dozen Green Berets into Uganda to 'help' the locals pursue
The Lords Resistance wackos but he seems pretty inured to Darfur, Liberia, Mali, Central African Republic,
and Zaire. I am also mystified that the Black Congressional Caucus is only calling for action in
Nigeria; this has been going on for 12 years now. WTF?

And Glanton, I'm not a " paranoid whitey", my wife is from Cameroun so if you don't want to
participate in an adult manner why don't you just demonstrate your superiority and leave us
to our meaningless blatherings.

Bluey, kindly elaborate how the Muslim Bros have infiltrated our country.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:39am PT
They other part most don't realize is phaze #2;

Hezbollah (Iran Specialists) will infiltrate the United States through private flights from Tehran to Venezuela. From there they have open access to our Southern borders after taking trains or covert vehicles, or both.

This is all verifiable by FAA and US Gov't tracking of Int'l flights.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/08/is_venezuela_harboring_hezbollah/

They are here. They are waiting to do something. And the Iranian Republican National Guards are very specialized units. Similar to our Rangers. The Al Quds guys are more like the elite teams.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:48am PT
How does the FAA know who is on an international flight? And if our government knew they
were Republican Guard specops guys why would we let them in?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:00am PT
Satellite tracking of people off the flights.

Don't be naive. You can tell who is mil and who is tourists. I think the the flights get diverted through Turkey too for some reason.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:05am PT
The covert IRG units come in covertly across the border. Most stay in Venezuela.

Wouldn't be surprised if they're running coke back back too. Cash for operations that is sold to South Europe and N. Africa.

I would be surprised if our guys aren't all over this sh#t. We never hear about.

But the f*#king fact still remains, put up a fence. With sensors. And M-4's. ANd night vision, and drones.

Defend the f*#king land border. It;s too easy to access.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 8, 2014 - 01:15am PT
The Muslim Brotherhood's Air Force.
Be afraid, be very afraid.




bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:19am PT
Fighting The Good Fights


It seems that lately that we are fighting conflicts and wars in countries where we always have to choose the lesser of two enemies. Usually Muslims. It’s happened in Afghanistan, Iraq, Eqypt, Libya, and finally Syria.
We are fighting between warring factions of varying Islamism. Some are moderate, and some despise moderation. Why we think we can instill Western diplomacy here in these particular countries is senseless.
What we should be more focused on is the truly moderate, secular countries such as Algeria, Tunisia, and even Morocco.
And Nigeria.
Nigeria is what could easily be a 2nd-world country. It has vast oil/mineral reserves, plenty of resource. It is just disrupted by ethnic diversions. And the Islamists have made it hard to do the right thing. Girls and boys want to go to school because their Christian and moderate Muslim parents see the value of this, like most of the developed world.
Welcome to our world.
There are people who do not want education or advancement. Boko Haram (Western education is forbidden) will not tolerate Nigeria’s jump into the modern world. They will kill to prevent this, and they have. They have killed thousands already. For no reason other than trying to be educated.

I'm going to post this on Pat Dollard's site, PatDollard.com.

I'd be willing to listen to the retorts, or contributions to my initial points. And I will attribute the contributitions.

Those are just my intital thoughts above...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 8, 2014 - 09:46am PT
bluering posted
I'm going to post this on Pat Dollard's site, PatDallard.com.

Here is my rebuttal:

Pat Dollard Dot Com
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 8, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Oh yes Couchmaster I am the stupid one.
Did you figure that out all by your self?

Don't forget I am also the most hateful.



Stupid is as stupid does.
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