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TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 30, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
We've seen this play before.

"The past is not quite past."

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson092909.html
dirtbag

climber
Sep 30, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
The Clash is hype.

The marjority of Iranaian people reject fundamentalism: that means that their "civilization" is not in clash mode.



Sorry, but someone's gotta pour cold water on your throbbing hard on for war.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
there is one secret nuclear facility in the Middle East...


Dimona....

enriches enough uranium for about 10 nukes a year.


time for the west to impose crippling sanctions against that rogue state..
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 1, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
JUST GETTING IN ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THIS IMPORTANT THREAD BABY!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 1, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
The US will not be involved (publicly) if this goes down. Instead the green light will be given to others.

Why do you think the Euros are getting all hawkish on this matter?
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Oct 7, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
Rogue nation, terrorist state, where are we on this scale?

Obama's "courage" .... Well, what HAS "Chocolate Jesus" (as Bill Maher calls him) done so far? Has he turned water into wine?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
People should be held accountable for their own stupidity.

Fattrad says:
"President Obama has about eight weeks to get Iran to stop all development or Israel will strike."



I believe Fattrad is flat WRONG in his statement.

I got $5000 cash that says that Israel will NOT strike within 8 weeks,
and this is without Obama doing ANYTHING at all.

Let's see just how "sure" of himself Fattrad really is.

Time to put your money where your mouth is, Jeff.

Do you accept my bet? $5000, should be easy money for you, after all,
your track record of being right on things is so very, very good.
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 7, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
yeah.. he's been predicting war with Iran for 2 years. Been dead on the money all along.





Um....















KNOTT.











what really sorta sucks is at this point most of us no longer look at is a knowledgeable person offering their prediction on something they pay attention to. Rather, at this point, it appears nothing less than wishful thinking/hoping on his part. Knott very endearing, Jeff. (and go ahead and defend yourself all you want. It's too late. I'm not stating a fact - I'm stating a perception of what I believe to be many here and you can't change that the way you are rolling)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
Let's put a more "liberal" date for our bet, Fattrad.

How about if we give your definitive statement three months instead of
the eight weeks you say Israel WILL attack?

Will be accept my $5000 bet now, please?


You see Jeff, you have ZERO reason, other than your own wishful hopes
that Obama fails at everything, that he is as you say a "weak president".

I have no doubt he will not hesitate to use military force on any
county if he feels it is justified. Ain't nothing "weak" about the man.
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 7, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
President Obama's post-election honeymoon is waning in California, while his approval rating nationwide has begun to rise, according to two new polls.

Obama's rating in California dipped to 60 percent in a Field Poll survey of registered voters in the state released today.

more wishful thinking....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
Gosh Fattrad, are you ever correct on ANYTHING?

I will as usual help you out: This mornings Associated Press polling:


NEW YORK — President Barack Obama's approval ratings are starting to rise after declining ever since his inauguration, new poll figures show as the country's mood begins to brighten. But concerns about the economy, health care and war persist, and support for the war in Afghanistan is falling.
An Associated Press-GfK poll says 56 percent of those surveyed in the past week approve of Obama's job performance, up from 50 percent in September. It's the first time since he took office in January that his rating has gone up.
People also feel better about his handling of the economy and his proposed health care overhaul.


This news must be just TERRIBLE for you Jeff.
You want SO much for our President to fail at everything.
It must be awful for you to see his poll numbers GOING UP.


the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Oct 7, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
fattrad,
man if you are so psyched for war- then get your punk ass in the armed forces and go fight.
otherwise why do you spend all this time drumming up conflict?

does the thought of massive death turn you on? i think porn might be a safer option for you and everyone else..

paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Oct 7, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
how much money will you make if there is a war ? how's your portfolio ?

war is great for the rulers...less so for us peasants...

too bad so many cowards run the show.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Oct 8, 2009 - 11:51am PT
Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is pulling the classic Zionazi tactic of delay,delay, delay.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33221116/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa


Time to kick ass and take yamulkas.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Oct 8, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
"The Palestinians need to build more schools, factories, Mosques and hospitals behind the current borders".

Why Fats has the IDF run out of targets?



I"'m not in favor of war, but certain ultra-religious leaders in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc will not give up on global Jihad".

You forgot to mention the ultra fundamentalists of Zionism.



"I've done my share of combat duty in So. Central L.A.".

What a crock! That is an insult to anyone who has ever been in combat.
You really meant Donut Duty.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 8, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
how many americans does iran need to kill before barry decides to man up?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/07/eveningnews/main5370148.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.1
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 8, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
from BW's link;

Iran knows the U.S. is already stretched to the limit in southern and eastern Afghanistan, so opening a new front in the west can only make it even more difficult for the U.S. to succeed.

Maybe that's why McChrystal is asking for 40,000 more troops.
climbrunride

Sport climber
Durango, CO
Oct 8, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
Uh, not to distract from this oh-so-important discussion, but there is a MAJOR flaw here. The title contains a glaring typographical error. The Roman numerals representing "41" should read "XLI".

Though I still can't figure out quite how this will impact the next several years of politics in the US.
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Oct 8, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
Relocate the Promised Land, I like it. If only it were that simple.

As for Iran, didn't we have a regional ally opposing that "Rogue Nation", BALANCING POWER in the area?

Iraq was a stable country with a secular government (albeit a dictatorship)that shared a common enemy with the U.S. Now it is well on its way to becoming a lot like Iran when the dust clears from the last departing Hummer.

It really is too bad that Saddam threatened the Saudis and their American puppet government here with destabilizing the world oil market by disrespecting the OPEC quota system with a flood of oil. For this, not for his atrocities, he swung from the gallows.

Not since the days of "Manifest Destiny" has the U.S. acted so poorly. This is an Empire that can't be sustained; it is bleeding internally already. In the Roman Empire, the conquered peoples starved. In Rome itself, the people starved as well... Only the elites of society prospered... until they too succumbed to the rot of their decadence.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Oct 9, 2009 - 08:27am PT
President Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize in his first year in office!

I guess Fats was too busy being wrong on his predictions about Spurious George getting his ugly mug carved on Mt. Rushmore and Israel attacking Iran to pick up on this possibility.
When you spend your time as a cheerleader for war it must be easy to over look Peace makers.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 13, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
Iran shipping illegal weapons to Syria…busted!!!! On a German-flagged freighter!!11!!!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,654596,00.html

Clearly a violation of U.N. sanctions. I wonder what will happen?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 15, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
Ding-dong the witch is dead....
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=281040&D=2009-10-15&SO=&HC=2


(I'd bet it was the Russians)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 15, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
Gee, that couldn't possibly be because Iran looks out not all that far from its borders and sees India, Pakistan, Russia, China, and Israel with nukes and goes WTF, so that's the name of the game? It couldn't be because BushCo decided to ignore the NPT and go whole hog in India rather than have them go to the French and Russians instead? Cash winning out over principle? Oh my god, what's the world coming to?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 16, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
No smoking gun involved, the Iranian Shia wants nukes for their ballistic missles just like all the Sunnis, Buddists, Hindis, Christians, and Jews in the neighborhood. The politics are all just that, and the reality is no one likes being the skinny kid on the block. How the hell are you suppose god expects the faithful to promote religious stability is it isn't built on a solid nuclear mount? These days It's more one of those "duh, you think?" situations with the whole world dithering in drama over the painfully obvious. And isn't it more than a bit disingenuous to bray about Iran on one hand and then ditch the NTP altogehter to sell nuke plants to India? Remember - nuclear proliferation - it's not just for the big guys anymore.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Oct 19, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
Apparently our so-called "friends" are spying on us as usual.
With friends like Isreal, do we need enemies?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091020/ap_on_go_ot/us_espionage_charged
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 21, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
Hey Slim, here about this one?

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/05/26/fbi-joint-terrorism-task-force-raid-chicago-apartment/

That's a lot of federales for an immigration raid! Turns out the 2 apprehensions were terror 'suspects'...kaboom-makers.

more here...http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=281441&D=2009-10-20&SO=&HC=3

and
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=281446&D=2009-10-21&SO=&HC=3
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 23, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
Hey Slim,

Here about the British nuke inspector (dealing w/ Iran) who 'accidentally' managed to fall from a building window to his death in Vienna???

British UN nuke inspector dies in Austria…murder?
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=281569&D=2009-10-22&SO=&HC=1

Prolly retaliation from Iran for the suicide bombing on their generals...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 27, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
More details emerge regarding my 10/21 post.

Looks like the Chicago boyz were planning on attacking targets in Denmark. Guess what country they received training from? They even wanted help in hitting targets in India.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569780,00.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 27, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
I can't believe Slim has no comments on my previous post...

Slim, hear about the Israeli/Lebanese border today???
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 28, 2009 - 09:55am PT
maybe the problem is that we haven't properly identified the "civilizations" involved in this clash; of course, there's america on the side of peace, freedom, and human rights...however, the other side seems to be expanding at a fightening rate:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091028/wl_afp/unpakistanafghanistanusmissilerights


so, according to the un, military strikes against our enemies are "executions"? so, the un doesn't want us to retaliate against our enemies until we've put them on trial?

wait, that does sound a lot like the libs strategery, too
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 28, 2009 - 10:00am PT
Fatty, for a good guy, you're a drooling maniac over here...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 28, 2009 - 11:29am PT
so, according to the un, military strikes against our enemies are "executions"? so, the un doesn't want us to retaliate against our enemies until we've put them on trial?

Ya know, the UN has literally outlived it's usefulness. It now only functions as an impediment to peace, ironically.

They can go f*#k themselves....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 28, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
Fatty, for a good guy, you're a drooling maniac over here..

Jaybro, I totally agree. Jeff, go pull some plastic.



EDIT
I do not come to the Taco Stand as much as I did before, but when did the font/photo/web link icons appear? Coolaboola.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 28, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
from the link;

In a court filing, the FBI said Abdullah, also known as Christopher Thomas, was an imam, or prayer leader, of a radical group named Ummah whose primary mission is to establish an Islamic state within the United States.

No one was charged with terrorism. But Abdullah was "advocating and encouraging his followers to commit violent acts against the United States," FBI agent Gary Leone said in an affidavit.

"He regularly preaches anti-government and anti-law enforcement rhetoric," Leone said. "Abdullah and his followers have trained regularly in the use of firearms, and continue to train in martial arts and sword fighting."

That's real f*#king nice!!!!!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
The three envelopes

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, October 30, 2009



Old Soviet joke:

Moscow, 1953. Stalin calls in Khrushchev.

"Niki, I'm dying. Don't have much to leave you. Just three envelopes. Open them, one at a time, when you get into big trouble."

A few years later, first crisis. Khrushchev opens envelope 1: "Blame everything on me. Uncle Joe."

A few years later, a really big crisis. Opens envelope 2: "Blame everything on me. Again. Good luck, Uncle Joe."

Third crisis. Opens envelope 3: "Prepare three envelopes."

In the Barack Obama version, there are 50 or so such blame-Bush free passes before the gig is up. By my calculation, Obama has already burned through a good 49. Is there anything he hasn't blamed George W. Bush for? The economy, global warming, the credit crisis, Middle East stalemate, the deficit, anti-Americanism abroad -- everything but swine flu.

It's as if Obama's presidency hasn't really started. He's still taking inventory of the Bush years. Just this Monday, he referred to "long years of drift" in Afghanistan in order to, I suppose, explain away his own, well, yearlong drift on Afghanistan.

This compulsion to attack his predecessor is as stale as it is unseemly. Obama was elected a year ago. He became commander in chief two months later. He then solemnly announced his own "comprehensive new strategy" for Afghanistan seven months ago. And it was not an off-the-cuff decision. "My administration has heard from our military commanders, as well as our diplomats," the president assured us. "We've consulted with the Afghan and Pakistani governments, with our partners and our NATO allies, and with other donors and international organizations" and "with members of Congress."

Obama is obviously unhappy with the path he himself chose in March. Fine. He has every right -- indeed, duty -- to reconsider. But what Obama is reacting to is the failure of his own strategy.

There is nothing new here. The history of both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is a considered readjustment of policies that have failed. In each war, quick initial low-casualty campaigns toppled enemy governments. In the subsequent occupation stage, two policy choices presented themselves: the light or heavy "footprint."

In both Iraq and Afghanistan, we initially chose the light footprint. For obvious reasons: less risk and fewer losses for our troops, while reducing the intrusiveness of the occupation and thus the chances of creating an anti-foreigner backlash that would fan an insurgency.

This was the considered judgment of our commanders at the time, most especially Centcom commander (2003-2007) Gen. John Abizaid. And Abizaid was no stranger to the territory. He speaks Arabic and is a scholar of the region. The overriding idea was that the light footprint would minimize local opposition.

It was a perfectly reasonable assumption, but it proved wrong. The strategy failed. Not just because the enemy proved highly resilient but because the allegiance of the population turned out to hinge far less on resentment of foreign intrusiveness (in fact the locals came to hate the insurgents -- al-Qaeda in Iraq, the Taliban in Afghanistan -- far more than us) than on physical insecurity, which made them side with the insurgents out of sheer fear.

What they needed, argued Gen. David Petraeus against much Pentagon brass opposition, was population protection, i.e., a heavy footprint.

In Iraq, the heavy footprint -- also known as the surge -- dramatically reversed the fortunes of war. In Afghanistan, where it took longer for the Taliban to regroup, the failure of the light footprint did not become evident until more recently, when an uneasy stalemate began to deteriorate into steady Taliban advances.

That's where we are now in Afghanistan. The logic of a true counterinsurgency strategy there is that whatever resentment a troop surge might occasion pales in comparison with the continued demoralization of any potential anti-Taliban elements unless they receive serious and immediate protection from U.S.-NATO forces.

In other words, Obama is facing the same decision on Afghanistan that Bush faced in late 2006 in deciding to surge in Iraq.

In both places, the deterioration of the military situation was not the result of "drift," but of considered policies that seemed reasonable, cautious and culturally sensitive at the time but that ultimately turned out to be wrong.

Which is evidently what Obama now thinks of the policy choice he made on March 27.

He is to be commended for reconsidering. But it is time he acted like a president and decided. Afghanistan is his. He's used up his envelopes.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 30, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
Charles Krauthammer?

The second I saw that byline I looked elsewhere. The guy is a creep. And I have met him, he is a CREEP. But there is no surprise that people like Bookworm adore him. As they adore what's her name too... Anne, no Ann, no, I think it is is Anus Coulter. Boys with little willies (and little minds) love her.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2009 - 12:58am PT
TGT, I may actually agree with your view on that one (re: the cartoon).

I just know that my nephew/godson is due for deployment there in April (March or May, take your pick, the latest I heard from my brother is April) and I really do not want to see the 20-year-old, or anyone else, dying for what?

I spoke with him several weeks ago and he seems to want to go, but the Marines are really good at 'conditioning' their charges.



EDIT

He is still at Lejeune, but he is due for some time at the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center in... Picket Meadow (http://www.mwtc.usmc.mil/);. I thought it was Bridgeport. He is an excellent skier and snowboarder, but I hope he is taught to climb properly.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 2, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
Iran prolly whacked this guy...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1224377/British-nuclear-experts-17th-floor-UN-death-plunge-suicide.html

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 4, 2009 - 06:41am PT
from the weekly standard blog:

Russia 'Simulates' Nuclear Attack on Poland

The timing here is beautiful. The exercises reportedly transpired during the 70th anniversary of the Russian invasion of Poland... also the same day that President Obama killed plans for Polish based missile defense.


The [Russian] armed forces are said to have carried out "war games" in which nuclear missiles were fired and troops practised an amphibious landing on the country's coast. Documents obtained by Wprost, one of Poland's leading news magazines, said the exercise was carried out in conjunction with soldiers from Belarus.

Russian general says Poland a nuclear 'target' The manoeuvres are thought to have been held in September and involved about 13,000 Russian and Belarusian troops.

Poland, which has strained relations with both countries, was cast as the "potential aggressor".


Poland is scared, and for good reason. After decades of repressive Soviet occupation, the Poles invested everything in tightened defensive ties with NATO and the United States. Now the Russian Bear is once again pounding down their door, and -- after Poland loyally committed whole battalions to both Afghanistan and Iraq -- America is nowhere to be seen.

This is how Putin operates. He messages with force. These exercises could have been held anywhere in Russia's yawing territorial expanse. Poland was chosen with reason, as it serves as a bulwark of freedom and Western values in an area Russia still considers its own. It's also a response to the recent Georgian-NATO war games that so infuriated Moscow.

Obama must respond. His reset button silliness and his decision to axe missile defense has the Russians drooling at our weakness. We can't afford to allow Putin to bully another ally, like Georgia, into submission -- NATO is weak enough as it is. Now is the time to reaffirm our allegiance to our Polish friends, and nip Moscow's neo-expansionism in the bud. Hold a large scale NATO exercise on Polish territory, move one of our Air Force bases into eastern Poland, up our naval activity in the Baltic Sea -- anything that communicates to Putin that, despite recent fraying, we still take the NATO alliance seriously.


best case scenario: barry didn't know anything about this because our intelligence failed so he's simply naive (which we all know)


worst case scenario: barry knew even as he chose to appease russia by stopping the missile defense system to be based in poland, which means he's either a coward or stupid


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 4, 2009 - 08:31am PT
Clueless as ever. This was simply a PR play already on the calendar as a response to Bush's foray siting starwars compenents in easten Europe and has nothing whatsoever to do with Poland moving closer to the west. This whole affair was yet another naive, moronic, and ham-handed PR play on Bush's part to show his administration 'getting tough on Putin'. Now you could have made a case for Russia's Odessa foray being for those reasons, but these war games, please. And given we ignorantly started the damn fracas, the appropriate response now is to do absolutely nothing. Russia isn't interested in eastern Europe, but rather in gaining the appearance of some control over things in Belarus, Georgia, and the Ukraine which are the real headaches for them.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 4, 2009 - 11:47am PT
How many times does Iran have to get caught red-handed in violation of UN Security Council sanctions before action is taken????

Last time a country did that a war was fought....

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256799087344&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=282496&D=2009-11-04&SO=&HC=1

I believe they also got popped sending men/weapons to northern Yemen to help with a Shia uprising there.

And then there's getting popped infiltrating western Afghanistan with military assets.

It's almost like their asking fot it....like....Saddam.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 4, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
A vid from Iran.

Protesters yesterday chanting.

Obama, Obama are you with us or with the regime?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9xvcrZva-M&feature=player_embedded


Cuba, Venezuela,Iran

The lefties always support the tyrant.

At least with silence.





bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 4, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
Wendell, don't leave Honduras out.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 5, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
I wonder if Der Spiegel was given that story. Is it a coincidence that Angela Merkel was addressing Congress a couple of days ago regarding Iran, and then this story comes out?

Of course the operation was public knowledge to most, but this seems like a friendly reminder of Iran's covert capabilities.

Be interesting to see what comes from the U.N. in the next couple of days regarding Iran's nuke program.
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Nov 7, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
I'm sure they will soon... if not tomorrow.....














just like you've been predicting for the last...

















oh..............

























































5 years?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 10, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
i'm agreeing with eugene robinson???

yep.


Failing the troops at Fort Hood

By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, November 10, 2009

There's a difference between sensitivity and stupidity. If there were indeed signs that Maj. Nidal Hasan, the alleged Fort Hood mass murderer, was becoming radicalized in his opposition to the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army had a duty to act -- before he did.

Gen. George Casey, the Army chief of staff, said Sunday that he was concerned "this increased speculation" about Hasan's evolving political and religious views "could cause a backlash against some of our Muslim soldiers." Casey is right to worry about the lunatics and bigots who now will think of all Muslims in the military as potential enemies. But it only feeds such paranoia to ignore alarm bells that an unstable individual, Muslim or not, is about to blow.

According to published reports, Hasan told people of his serious doubts about the U.S. military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hasan, a psychiatrist who had evaluated returning soldiers for stress-related disorders, made no secret of his reluctance to serve in the Afghan theater, where he was to be sent within weeks. According to ABC News, fellow Army doctors told superiors of their concern that Hasan felt divided allegiance -- both to the Muslims whom he felt were under attack and the country he had volunteered to serve.

All this should have been enough to prompt an urgent intervention by Army brass, regardless of Hasan's religion. That it did not is unfair to the thousands of Muslims who have served in the military, and continue to do so, with honor and distinction.

"The system is not doing what it's supposed to do," Army doctor Val Finnell told the Associated Press. Finnell, who studied with Hasan, complained to higher-ups about Hasan's "anti-American" rants and his stated view that the United States was conducting a war against Islam. "He at least should have been confronted about these beliefs, told to cease and desist, and to shape up or ship out."

Indeed he should have been. In the Army, there's a rich tradition of grousing about idiotic higher-ups and their ridiculous orders. But it sounds as if Hasan's complaints went far beyond the ordinary, especially in the notion that he might be unsure of his loyalty and duty.

If Hasan's superior officers had investigated, they might have pieced together the story that seems to be emerging: that Hasan was behaving erratically, that his faith apparently had become increasingly political, that he desperately wanted out of the military and that he was distraught about being ordered to the war zone.

Army officials surely were aware that Muslims in the service have complained of taunts and harassment from their fellow soldiers. For moral and practical reasons, the Army must eliminate such discrimination. I've had issues with the way former president George W. Bush did his job, to say the least, but one good thing he did was emphasize that his "war on terrorism" was not a war against Islam, one of the world's great faiths. That disclaimer rings hollow if Muslims serving in the armed forces are blamed for the crimes of Islamic terrorists and treated as potential traitors to the American cause.

But fairness is one thing, foolishness another. Any soldier who seemed as if he might be falling apart -- and it seems that Hasan gave a lot of people that impression -- should have been given more scrutiny. In Hasan's case, a closer look would have revealed his growing religiosity and his feeling that his faith was under assault. That Hasan had worshiped at a Virginia mosque whose spiritual leader was a radical named Anwar al-Aulaqi might also have come to light. The Post reported Monday that Aulaqi, who now lives in Yemen, has posted a message on his Web site calling Hasan a "hero" for what he allegedly did at Fort Hood.

Had authorities learned in advance of any link between Hasan and radical Islam -- as opposed to the mainstream Islam practiced by more than a billion people worldwide -- they could have moved immediately to ensure that Hasan could not hurt others or himself. That wouldn't have been an act of bigotry, it would have been an act of prudence, even compassion.

How is the Pentagon supposed to tell the difference between reasonable caution and blatant discrimination? There are thousands of Muslims in uniform, serving their country at home and abroad. Ask them.

Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Nov 10, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
Apparently the good folks in Afghanistan think that
if they haven't gotten H1N1 yet it is because they
don't eat pork!

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-fg-afghan-flu10-2009nov10,0,4350794.story
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 10, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
Hate to tell you, Jeff, but both Israeli and US intelligence already know that their countries don't have the capacity to wipe out whatever nuclear infrastructure Iran has, short of using nuclear weapons themselves. Things are too spread out and too hardened, and it would create unacceptable radiation and political fallout. The issue now is containment and management, not prevention. The US and Israel are undoubtedly even now talking with the Sunni Arab states (most of which fear the Persian Shi'ites) about what to do. Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the Gulf states being top of the list.

Given ten or more years, Iran can probably develop atomic weapons of transportable size, and the means to reliably deliver them. Given that Israel may have as many as 100 warheads, the capacity to deliver them, and the will to use them if attacked, it may be moot. The response from Israel to an attack would be overwhelming.

Anyway, why don't you imagine whirled peas for a while?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 10, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
"Some Muslims want peace and friendship with the world, while others call for global jihad:"


Same with America.....
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
This war stuff sure does get Fatty excited.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 10, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
Fattrad needs to do few things:

1) Move to Israel and join the military to engage in actual combat
against the Palestinians. It is hypocritical to remain a ChickenHawk here.

2) Donate his upcoming Social Security benefits to the US General Fund.

3) Donate his upcoming Medicare health benefits to the General Fund.

4) Send a personal check for $100,000 to the President of his private
health insurance company so his children's children's children will not
have to worry about getting a job and can screw off all day.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 10, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
French Intellectuals to be Deployed to FattyStan to Convince Jeff of His Errors

The ground war in FattyStan heated up yesterday when the Allies revealed plans to airdrop a platoon of crack French existentialist philosophers into the country to destroy the morale of zealot Fatty by proving the non-existence of FattyStan WMDs. Elements from the feared Jean-Paul Sartre Brigade, or 'Black Berets', will be parachuted into the combat zones to spread doubt, despondency and existential anomie among the enemy. Hardened by numerous intellectual battles fought during their long occupation of Paris' Left Bank, their first action will be to establish a number of pavement cafes at strategic points near the front lines. There they will drink coffee and talk animatedly about the absurd nature of life and man's lonely isolation in the universe. They will be accompanied by a number of heartbreakingly beautiful girlfriends who will further spread dismay by sticking their tongues in the philosophers' ears every five minutes and looking remote and unattainable to everyone else. Their leader, Colonel Marc-Ange Belmondo, spoke yesterday of his confidence in the success of their mission. Sorbonne graduate Belmondo, a very intense and unshaven young man in a black pullover, gesticulated wildly and said, "The Fatty is caught in a logical fallacy of the most ridiculous. There are no WMDs and I can prove it. Take your tongue out of my ear, Juliette, I am talking." Marc-Ange plans to deliver an impassioned thesis on man's nauseating freedom of action with special reference to the work of Foucault and the films of Alfred Hitchcock. However, humanitarian agencies have been quick to condemn the operation as inhumane, pointing out that the effects of passive smoking from the Frenchmen's endless Gitanes could wreak a terrible toll on civilians in the area. Speculation was mounting last night that Canada may also contribute to the effort by dropping do-gooders into key zones, to be nice to everyone. Other tactics may include the dropping of leaflets pointing out that there has not been any over, under or across the horizon attack yet (apart from the ladybug incident), and the recent admission by Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the Gulf states that they're all client states of the US, kept on a short leash.

In other news, Thomas Friedman reportedly acknowledged that the New York Times' reporting on the Middle East is grossly disproportionate to its importance to US interests. "I might as well be an Israeli agent", Friedman allegedly didn't say. "If there wasn't any oil, and a few rabid domestic lobby groups, we should just let them all pound sand. But hey, it's a job."

This is only one of several Psy-Ops operations mounted by the Allies.

A later report that "WMD" stands for "Whackos of Mass Delusion" was unsubstantiated at press time.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
Major Jihadi Group publishes reforms and challenges Al Queda

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/11/09/libya.jihadi.code/index.html

"....Leaders of one of the world's most effective jihadist organizations, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), have written a new "code" for jihad. The LIFG says it now views the armed struggle it waged against Col. Moammar Gadhafi's regime for two decades as illegal under Islamic law.

The new code, a 417-page religious document entitled "Corrective Studies" is the result of more than two years of intense and secret talks between the leaders of the LIFG and Libyan security officials.

The code's most direct challenge to al Qaeda is this: "Jihad has ethics and morals because it is for God. That means it is forbidden to kill women, children, elderly people, priests, messengers, traders and the like. Betrayal is prohibited and it is vital to keep promises and treat prisoners of war in a good way. Standing by those ethics is what distinguishes Muslims' jihad from the wars of other nations."

The code has been circulated among some of the most respected religious scholars in the Middle East and has been given widespread backing. It is being debated by politicians in the U.S. and studied by western intelligence agencies.

In essence the new code for jihad is exactly what the West has been waiting for: a credible challenge from within jihadist ranks to al Qaeda's ideology...."

Peace

Karl
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
There is no clash. The clash is hype.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 10, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
Funny you should mention India. It has the third-largest Muslim population of any country, after Indonesia (203 million) and just barely behind Pakistan (175 million). India has about 161 million Muslims, and Bangladesh is fourth with 145 million. And hardly any of them are Arabs, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

India and Pakistan undoubtedly don't get along, for a variety of reasons. But if India was to get in a war with Pakistan or Afghanistan, or any other country with a significant Muslim population, it could be seen as a war of Muslim on Muslim.

Who knows what India and Israel have really agreed to, but I guess it's an agreement between two Muslim states. Don't you just hate facts, Fatty?

(Israel has about 1.2 million Muslim inhabitants - around 17%.)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 10, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
But if India was to get in a war with Pakistan or Afghanistan, or any other country with a significant Muslim population, it could be seen as a war of Muslim on Muslim.

What, by you??? Are you high? India does have a significant muslim population but is a Hindu country.

Why were India/Pakistan seperated originally??? That bedsheet wearing pacifist, what good did he do?

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 11, 2009 - 02:13am PT
That bedsheet wearing pacifist, what good did he do?
You mean Mohandas Gandhi?

As Stalin famously asked, "how many battalions has the Pope?" The Roman Catholic church seems to have outlasted most of Stalin's legacy, only 60 years later.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 11, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
The Arabian Peninsula getting hot...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8352783.stm

Later, a commander of the militant group, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, purportedly urged Sunnis to confront the Houthis.

In an audio recording posted on the internet, Mohammed Bin Abdul Rahman al-Rashid, denounced what he called the Yemeni rebels' aspirations and incursions against Sunnis.

He said the Shia community and Iran were trying to take over Muslim countries, and that "their threat to Islam and its people is much bigger than that from Jews and Christians".
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Nov 11, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
Not to split hairs or anything.... but.... has any of this stuff actually happened yet???:

your original post fattrad:
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2009 - 09:23am PT
Thought I would start a new thread as military action against Iran is imminent. Let's see if President Obama has any courage and participates against the rogue nation. Look for Hezbollah to begin an offensive against Israel first as a distraction.

Hmmmm, Israel just got two new nuke firing subs, what could they be used for?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j33iXawr-RpZpCmlIkVylnRAoUyg









hmmmm.... IDK..... But if the initial thought turned out to be false..... then why all the discussion?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 11, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
Iran has a population that is very young and tends to want progressive change. LIke China, there are a few old leaders that need to get out of the way.

Screwing with them is not the way to institute change. They'll be fine if we let them grow up with time. All this talk of bombing them is total hypocrisy. Why give Israel a pass? Make the whole Middle East Nuke free and you'll get everyone (but Israel's) complete cooperation

PEace

Karl
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Nov 11, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
I see... So the initial thought turned out to be false... end of story... no further discussion needed...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 11, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
U.S. ambassador dissents on Afghan troop increase

Strongly worded cables urge a pause until Kabul government shifts course



By Greg Jaffe, Scott Wilson And Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 11, 2009; 7:01 PM


The U.S. ambassador in Kabul sent two classified cables to Washington in the last week expressing deep concerns about sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan until Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government demonstrates that it is willing to tackle the corruption and mismanagement that has fueled the Taliban's rise, said senior U.S. officials.

Ambassador Karl W. Eikenberry's memos were sent in the days leading up to a critical meeting Wednesday between President Obama and his national security team to consider several options prepared by military planners for how to proceed in Afghanistan. The proposals, which mark the last stage of a months-long strategy review, call for between 10,000 and 40,000 more troops and a far broader American involvement of the war.

The last-minute dissent by Eikenberry, who commanded U.S. troops in Afghanistan in 2006 and 2007, has rankled his former colleagues in the Pentagon -- as well as Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, said defense officials. McChrystal has bluntly stated that without an increase of tens of thousands of troops in Afghanistan in the next year, the mission there "will likely result in failure."
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 11, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
Rooting out corruption, mismanagement and incompetence in the Afghani government will take decades, or longer.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 11, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
Rooting out corruption, mismanagement and incompetence in the Afghani government will take decades, or longer.


I agree, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't send more troops. More troops will help to stabilize the country so the gov't can relax a bit. We also need those troops to prevent Pakistani militants fleeing the Pak army offensive, from coming BACK into Afghanistan.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 11, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
"The U.S. ambassador in Kabul sent two classified cables to Washington in the last week expressing deep concerns about sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan UNTIL Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government demonstrates that it is willing to tackle the corruption and mismanagement that has fueled the Taliban's rise, said senior U.S. officials."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
Foggy bottom and the striped pants set could f*#k up a wet dream.



Let the pros win.

Keep the pink pansy bunch out of it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
"The U.S. ambassador in Kabul sent two classified cables to Washington in the last week expressing deep concerns about sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan UNTIL Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government demonstrates that it is willing to tackle the corruption and mismanagement that has fueled the Taliban's rise, said senior U.S. officials."

Norton, so the Ambassador knows better than general on the job? It makes no logical sense. How can more troops make the country worse in terms of political corruption?

Sounds like a biased report to me to give the Professor In Chief excuses. Fueled the Taliban's rise? How is that? Stability by military means will quell the Taliban's rise.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
Well, given that the ambassador was formerly commander of US (and presumably NATO) forces in Afghanistan, chances are that he knows a thing or two about it, and indeed may have some useful perspectives. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/us/politics/12policy.html?ref=global-home

It sounds like it's all politics, though - the various parties trying to shape US policy toward the Afghanistani government.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
Well, given that the ambassador was formerly commander of US (and presumably NATO) forces in Afghanistan, chances are that he knows a thing or two about it, and indeed may have some useful perspectives.

Maybe, but why is McChrystal now marginalized, the current commander. Politics is definitely involved. It doesn't jive with administration policy.

Bottom line. Either get the f*#k out and suffer a tactical defeat and sh#t on the Pakistanis, or add more troops and squash the Talibunnies.

I don't understand how adding more troops compromises Karzai's gov't and leads to more corruption. It's BULLSH#T!!!!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
Blue, I think the issue right now is about strategy first, then tactics.
The military will decide upon and execute the strategy that President Obama
decides is in the best interest of America as regards our involvement in
Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The issue is not necessarily how many troops to add, but whether we
should be committing any more of our people and our money UNLESS the
Afgan government FIRST starts making serious efforts to clean up their
own act, or else the strategy, not the tactics, need to be reconsidered.

As in Iraq, the "when they stand up, we will step down" strategy, applies
here, and after seven long years of our military involvement in Afgan,
it is becoming doubtful that the Afgan government is holding up their
end of the deal enough to make our sacrifice worthwhile.

Our guy there knows the military end of it well, he is questioning
our overall strategy. That should be constantly questioned and examined.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
What a crock of sh#t, Norton!
Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
I went to a really inspiring presentation last night by an Afghan women, youngest member of Parliament, who is on book tour with her book "A woman Among Warlords". She is adamant that the US should leave, that their presence just fuels the fire, that we have armed and funded war criminal warlords and drug dealers that are part of Karzais govt.

That if the US pulled out, cut off the arms, the entangling alliances, the buckets of cash that fuel the corruption, also ending the motivation of all the foreign jihadists who flock to her country to fight us, etc. then grassroots democratic forces would have a chance to grow and real change would flourish.

I just started reading her book this evening, so I don't have the answer for the obvious question on "vacumn of power" that from our US perspective it seems we would leave, but her arguments that we have just poured gasoline on a fire that we sparked to begin with are compelling. Yes, she is of course glad that the Taliban was driven out, but she had so many horror stories of the barely-any-better warlords that we allied with and empowered in their place, that now that they have been subjected to 7 more years of war, on balance, we have fuc**d them.

She said the US could spend a fraction of the money spent now on this endless war, on schools and infrastructure and the overwhelming majority of the populace would view the taliban as ridiculous. Instead, they come off as the least corrupt, and for every civilian we kill, people join them for revenge.

Check out the book, or search the web for Malalai Joya.

Peace,

Peter

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
What exactly is a "crock of shit", blue?

It must be because you personally don't agree with the strategy or the tactics.

That's fine, everyone has their own opinion on just about everything!

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
Coming from an Afghan citizen, rather than an American citizen:


"She is adamant that the US should leave, that their presence just fuels the fire, that we have armed and funded war criminal warlords and drug dealers that are part of Karzais govt.

That if the US pulled out, cut off the arms, the entangling alliances, the buckets of cash that fuel the corruption, also ending the motivation of all the foreign jihadists who flock to her country to fight us, etc. then grassroots democratic forces would have a chance to grow and real change would flourish. "
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
That if the US pulled out, cut off the arms, the entangling alliances, the buckets of cash that fuel the corruption, also ending the motivation of all the foreign jihadists who flock to her country to fight us, etc. then grassroots democratic forces would have a chance to grow and real change would flourish.

Peter, how does that explain the rise of the Taliban after the Soviets left??? Can you people use logic? The Taliban arose in a lack of our support. A vacuum. They are the lack of civility and international justice.

Before we were there what was happening? They were f*#king blowing up girls who wanted to go to school!!!!

As an obvious liberal, you should be in favor of us getting rid of oppressive Sharia Taliban law and gov't. WTF!???

This is where typical hippocracy comes in . The US caused this.

No, the US is trying to end it, Johnson!!!!

f*#k!!!
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
They're lucky I'm not President because the order
to round 'em up and to destroy all the terrorist meeting
halls would have already been signed.

unworkable and unrealistic but still...
Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Nov 11, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
Blue,

Study the history of the Taliban, originally they were orphan boys raised in refugee camps in Pakistan, taught in madrasses, that were set up (incidentally) with a significant US funding as part of our anti-Soviet efforts. They flooded in after some years of total civil war and chaos between mujahadden who had not been very powerful until a lot of US arms and money came into the scene. The country was so messed up, the taliban were originally accepted in the chaos as a non-corrupt stabilizing influence. Now apparantly some of these allies of ours are so hooked on the flow of money and so corrupt that they are siphoning some of their weapons over to the taliban to keep the conflict going, and the money flowing and the poppies growing.

Different scene now, no easy answers, but after last nights presentation, I am at least open to the idea that we are not helping over there at all. Sorry Blue, it is one of those complex situations that won't be solved by simplistic means, and in this case our expedient support of really bad actors has prolonged a lot of misery that we are not seeing from the comfort of our armchairs watching Fox news.

Peter
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 12, 2009 - 12:18am PT
Study the history of the Taliban, originally they were orphan boys raised in refugee camps in Pakistan, taught in madrasses, that were set up (incidentally) with a significant US funding as part of our anti-Soviet efforts. They flooded in after some years of total civil war and chaos between mujahadden who had not been very powerful until a lot of US arms and money came into the scene. The country was so messed up, the taliban were originally accepted in the chaos as a non-corrupt stabilizing influence. Now apparantly some of these allies of ours are so hooked on the flow of money and so corrupt that they are siphoning some of their weapons over to the taliban to keep the conflict going, and the money flowing and the poppies growing.

Peter, apparent intellectuals always pull this crap. I'm not trying to insult you personally. Just the propagandists.

Let me explain.

The Taliban have created a Sharia state that was incompatible with "western" human rights law. Are you against that? Why doesn't Amnesty Int'l and Human Rights Watch focus on that????

Huh???

As for us going in and eliminating that presence, why do you oppose it?

If abusing people and their personal 'rights' is you prerogative, where are you for little Afghani girls?

Do they suck? Or are they worthy of liberation?

How many girls schools have been blown up lately by by the benevolent Taliban???

They only need 3 cups of tea, right????
Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:02am PT
I am in no way defending or apologizing for the Taliban, and I am in support of girls and women in that region etc. I am just pointing out that in arming, and funding corrupt warlords who are only slightly better we are not helping.

And how are we going to "wipe them out"? When has military might prevailed over the nimble shifting guerrilla fighters that are growing in numbers with each civilian "collateral" member of a wedding party etc. that our high tech efforts produce. Name the conflict where this scenario has worked out? No, your 3 cups of tea reference is right on, the argument I heard last night is that if we funded a whole bunch of schools and de-escalated the violence, by pulling out, the overwhelming drive of the people who desire normalcy could make the taliban so marginalized they would wither away.

Anyway, I am just embarking on a reading jag to learn more about these arguments, will report back later...

Peter
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:17am PT
I am just pointing out that in arming, and funding corrupt warlords who are only slightly better we are not helping.

Then how's that lifestlyle change?

You can read all you want to try and justify your crazy liberal ideolical mindset, and then again, what is your goal???

I fail to understand it. What do you want Asscrapistan to be???

Me, I'd like to see a semblance of Western-style humanitarianism, but that's me....
Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:33am PT
Their lifestyle changes when they are free to develop grass roots democratic institutions, like all other societies with "western style humanitarianism". Again, name the historical scenario where that was accomplished at the point of a gun?

"crazy liberal ideolical mindset" ?? How do you get that? I am just sharing a bit of info I gleaned from an important local source. I am also skeptical about how the power vacuum problem of quick disengagement would be overcome, which is why I want to learn more about her perspective.

Glad you have your mind made up to fit a black and white view of the world, must be comforting.

Peter
ahad aham

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:29am PT
"The worst casualty of this war is truth"

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_13755903?nclick_check=1


Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:28am PT
I will try to be a little more clear. The historical perspective on the taliban referenced above was to make the point that all of these problems have been the result of war. And that more war is not going to be the solution. Right now there are rapes and murders committed by people who are not brought to justice because the corruption that our money and guns is feeding has set up a system where atrocities are tolerated. And with more guns and money, there will be more corruption, and a lot more stress on already stressed population, and more foreign jihadists pouring in to fight and more refugees and orphans being taught in madrasses in Pakistan and on and on.

Peter
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2009 - 09:00am PT
As discussed before, the Taliban are back because the Warlords who created the conditions for their rise to power in the first place are back. Restoring the Warlords to power to compensate for our pathetically inadequate force levels was the single worst decision made in Afghanistan. They are inherently corrupt and, outside of Kabul and Khandahar, we've turned the country back over to them - they are the problem. When the administration and others use the 'corruption' code word, they mean reigning in the Warlords and, unfortunately, neither we nor the Afghan government have the capability to do so. It was our decision to reinstate the Warlords against near universal comdemnation of that idea which has now made this an untenable situation and unwinnable proposition.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 12, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
There is no clash of civilization: it's hype.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 12, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
The whole world seems different at the end of the yellow brick road, in FattyStan.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
Ridiculous, I was in the Phillipines on and off from '72-'74 and there was no pre-70's history where the Southern Phillipine "radicalism" was ever subdued - never has been, never will be.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 12, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
How about a freeze on those Israeli settlements in occupied territories that everybody agrees are illegal under international law anyway?

How about quiting provocations like erasing Arabic city names for cities that nobody believes belong to Israel (Like Nazereth will now be called "Nazrat")

How about letting the UN investigate impartial war crimes accusations against both Israel and Hamas?

These threads are merely propaganda to create conflict against Islam for the sole purpose of enabling Israel to avoid it's obligations under international law and allow it to continue to be an outlaw nuke state in the process of ethnic cleansing it's undesirables enough to claim their land without allowing them to become citizens and vote. The "Radicals" have power in Israel too and refuse both a two state solution or a one state solution where everybody gets a vote...the agenda... status quo until the pressure squeezes enough remaining palestinians into the open air prison of Gaza.

peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 12, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
WTF???


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33894877/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 12, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
With two article about the feds punishing businesses who have financial ties to Iran, I wonder if they are going to go after Dick Cheney too!

http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000552.htm

"....In 2004, the CBS newsmagazine 60 Minutes detailed the Iranian business dealings of Cheney's former company, Halliburton. Despite the prohibitions signed into law by President Clinton with his 1995 executive order and the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act of 1996, Halliburton continued to reap the profits of business with Iran through its non-U.S. subsidiaries. While U.S. law bans virtually all commerce with the rogue nations, Halliburton was able to jump through its major loophole: the rules do not apply to any foreign or offshore subsidiary so long as it is run by non-Americans. As CBS documented:

That subsidiary, Halliburton Products and Services, Ltd., is wholly owned by the U.S.-based Halliburton and is registered in a building in the capital of the Cayman Islands -- a building owned by the local Calidonian Bank. Halliburton and other companies set up in this Caribbean Island, because of tax and secrecy laws that are corporate friendly.
Halliburton is the company that Vice President Dick Cheney used to run. He was CEO from 1995 to 2000, during which time Halliburton Products and Services set up shop in Iran. Today, it sells about $40 million a year worth of oil field services to the Iranian government.

In the wake of the January 2004 60 Minutes piece, the company moved quickly to declare that "Halliburton's business in Iran is clearly permissible under applicable laws and regulations" and cited its October 2003 disclosures to the New York City police and fire pension funds. Despite those assurances, Dick Cheney's old firm was subpoenaed by a U.S grand jury in June 2004. In early 2005, Halliburton announced that it would end its business activities there when it fulfills its ongoing contracts, including a $35 million gas drilling project it had just won the previous month.

Though he does not benefit directly from the Iran contracts of Halliburton's foreign-based subsidiaries, Cheney continues to have financial ties to his former firm. Despite Cheney's assurances that "I've severed all my ties with the company, gotten rid of all my financial interest," a 2003 report by the Congressional Research Service found that the Vice President retained 433,000 shares of Halliburton. In addition, Cheney received $162,392 and $205,298 in deferred payments in 2001 and 2002, respectively.

Given the stakes, it's no wonder Dick Cheney had a born-again experience on Iranian sanctions when he entered the Bush administration. While Vice President, Cheney in 2002 denounced Iran as "the world's leading exporter of terror." But during his tenure as Halliburton CEO in the 1990's, Cheney strenuously argued against Clinton's sanctions regime and expanded Halliburton's business with Tehran. But in 1998, he complained that U.S. firms were "cut out of the action." And back in 1996, Cheney railed against the Clinton prohibitions on Iranian trade and financial activity for American firms:

"We seem to be sanction-happy as a government. The problem is that the good Lord didn't see fit to always put oil and gas resources where there are democratic governments."
When it comes to disinvestment in Iran, Republicans like Mitt Romney and Dick Cheney shouldn't, to paraphrase then-candidate George W Bush, "take the high horse and then claim the low road."..."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 13, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
Again Fatty, why don't you ever include illegal Israeli settlers in your "Clash" blaming.

Tolerating and allowing radical settlers to usurp land that every international body (including teh US) expects should belong to Palestinians is the single greatest threat to peace in the region and makes all Israel's victim talk seem disingenuous. The whole Islamic world sees the abuses that come from continued settlements and what do they take from those actions? The settlers are just as much the enemies of the common Israeli citizen as radical palestinians as they discredit Israel's claim to be seeking peace.

The Palestinians have no way to curtail the settlements. It's up to influential people like Fatty to say no to settlement and end the hypocrisy. Stand against continued settlement and reverse the tide and you'll actually be an unsung hero for Israel.

Can you imagine if the Palestinians were more powerful and managed to encroach on Jewish land everywhere including Jerusalem while saying "Those Israelis just won't let us live in peace?"

Your article is laughable linked above. The opinion is just one "Israel agreed to stop more settlements after the 3000 apartments already planned and we got nothing in return...Boo Hoo"
It's silly because Israel has never stopped after repeated agreements to stop. It's like some serial burgler saying, "I'll stop after I sack just one more neighborhood, I promise, but offer me something to stop breaking the law!" The road map called for settlement freeze YEARS ago and Israel agreed.

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 14, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
I don't bite bullshit Fatty.

"Defensible borders" are a laughable excuse for usurp others land at will. WTF with totally ignoring most UN resolutions about Israel and then standing behind "Defensible borders" as a reason for Israel to steal the west bank.

They are a tiny country, they could take ALL palestinian land and still expand under such a doctrine.

Maybe the more recent development of having 100-300 nukes and one of the world's most powerful armies gives them a deterrent power that compensates for their lack of land.

Is Israel the only middle east country with a right to self defense?

Geez

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 17, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
The parallels between attempting to negotiate with the Israelis over settlements and the North Koreans over nukes are becoming embarassingly obvious.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Nov 18, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
Ain't making the news, but there's some Shia on Sunni action going down on the north-western Yemeni border with Saudi Arabia.

Lots of 'foreigners' involved too. Namely, Iranians.

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=283645&D=2009-11-18&SO=&HC=2
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=283633&D=2009-11-18&SO=&HC=1

You even got the frickin' Saudis dropping White Phosphorus on 'em.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 18, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
The Sunni-Shia CLASH is exactly why there is no CoC in the offing. Any CoC of significance would require cooperative behavior on the part of Sunnis and Shias at a level that is never going to happen. The clash the peoples of the ME are really worried about are among each other. And again, if there was a real CoC China would stomp on it like a bug. There remains a deadlocked CoIP - the other root problem of ME politics
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 19, 2009 - 11:13am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111900904.htmlv

no decision on afghanistan before turkey day?

here's my bet:

barry waits until late wednesday evening (the evening before tg), after he is safely ensconced in camp david, to announce he's pulling out of afghanistan
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2009 - 11:58am PT
Muslim-on-Muslim political violence in Southern Phillipines illustrating why the Islamic world will never be able to organize for a clash. And hell, this is clan-based violence, not even rising to the level of Shia-Sunni conflict. These guys have never been able to organize as a whole within their state to shoot for autonomy let alone pose a legitimate threat to the Phillipine government.

It's about par for the course throughout the Islamic world. Saudi Arabia and most other Islamic countries are rife with similar clan rivalries within both Shia and Sunni controlled states and regions.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 24, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
ksm in new york...what could go wrong? here's a little taste of barry's method of fighting terrorists...er..oops...i mean man-caused disaster causers:

Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist
Tuesday , November 24, 2009

By Rowan Scarborough


ADVERTISEMENTNavy SEALs have secretly captured one of the most wanted terrorists in Iraq — the alleged mastermind of the murder and mutilation of four Blackwater USA security guards in Fallujah in 2004. And three of the SEALs who captured him are now facing criminal charges, sources told FoxNews.com.

The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.

Ahmed Hashim Abed, whom the military code-named "Objective Amber," told investigators he was punched by his captors — and he had the bloody lip to prove it.

Now, instead of being lauded for bringing to justice a high-value target, three of the SEAL commandos, all enlisted, face assault charges and have retained lawyers.

Matthew McCabe, a Special Operations Petty Officer Second Class (SO-2), is facing three charges: dereliction of performance of duty for willfully failing to safeguard a detainee, making a false official statement, and assault.

Petty Officer Jonathan Keefe, SO-2, is facing charges of dereliction of performance of duty and making a false official statement.

Petty Officer Julio Huertas, SO-1, faces those same charges and an additional charge of impediment of an investigation.

The three SEALs will be arraigned separately on Dec. 7. Another three SEALs — two officers and an enlisted sailor — have been identified by investigators as witnesses but have not been charged.

FoxNews.com obtained the official handwritten statement from one of the three witnesses given on Sept. 3, hours after Abed was captured and still being held at the SEAL base at Camp Baharia. He was later taken to a cell in the U.S.-operated Green Zone in Baghdad.

The SEAL told investigators he had showered after the mission, gone to the kitchen and then decided to look in on the detainee.

"I gave the detainee a glance over and then left," the SEAL wrote. "I did not notice anything wrong with the detainee and he appeared in good health."

Lt. Col. Holly Silkman, spokeswoman for the special operations component of U.S. Central Command, confirmed Tuesday to FoxNews.com that three SEALs have been charged in connection with the capture of a detainee. She said their court martial is scheduled for January.

United States Central Command declined to discuss the detainee, but a legal source told FoxNews.com that the detainee was turned over to Iraqi authorities, to whom he made the abuse complaints. He was then returned to American custody. The SEAL leader reported the charge up the chain of command, and an investigation ensued.

The source said intelligence briefings provided to the SEALs stated that "Objective Amber" planned the 2004 Fallujah ambush, and "they had been tracking this guy for some time."

The Fallujah atrocity came to symbolize the brutality of the enemy in Iraq and the degree to which a homegrown insurgency was extending its grip over Iraq.

The four Blackwater agents were transporting supplies for a catering company when they were ambushed and killed by gunfire and grenades. Insurgents burned the bodies and dragged them through the city. They hanged two of the bodies on a bridge over the Euphrates River for the world press to photograph.

Intelligence sources identified Abed as the ringleader, but he had evaded capture until September.

The military is sensitive to charges of detainee abuse highlighted in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The Navy charged four SEALs with abuse in 2004 in connection with detainee treatment.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 25, 2009 - 07:50am PT
what does barry mean by "finish the job"?

keep in mind this is the same man who said about iran, "i'm not interested in victory"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD6nMxYcmjE

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 26, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
"The International Atomic Energy Agency probe of Iran's nuclear program is at a dead end because Tehran is not cooperating

Completely and utterly maddening."

Maybe they should investigate Israel's nukes and see if they cooperate

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 26, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
Who knows?

But they'd be insane not to want nukes.

Once you have nukes, people stop threatening to bomb you in a cavelier manner? Why did Israel want nukes?

If Iraq had nukes really, maybe we wouldn't be patrolling their streets.

As countries go, Iran has a far better record of peace with the world that the countries that have nukes

PEace

Karl

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 29, 2009 - 02:31am PT
If the vote is on whether to permit minarets on (Muslim) mosques in Switzerland, then it isn't a vote on mosques in Islam - Switzerland isn't part of Islam.

Anyway, what does "Izzy" think of it?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
The ban is going to pass.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jSvKwQU-w3j6Gp8PWHRzV2hnh54QD9C96QA00
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 30, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
hey fattrat,

i'll vote for ya.

no sense in prolonging the downfall
of our nation.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 4, 2009 - 09:44am PT
. . . and how well it plays in Bay State

By Michael Graham | Thursday, December 3, 2009 | http://www.bostonherald.com | Op-Ed

We may live in the only state in America where President Obama’s Afghanistan strategy makes sense.

Across the country, citizens are trying to grasp what our president was trying to tell us Tuesday night. On the one hand, sending 30,000 more troops is “in our vital national interest” because “what’s at stake [in Afghanistan] is the security of our allies, and the common security of the world.”

On the other hand, “after 18 months, our troops will begin to come home,” and we’ll “begin the transfer of our forces out of Afghanistan in July of 2011.”

As military historian Ralph Peters put it, “It’s as if, during WWII, we’d told the Japanese and Germans that we really meant business, but intended to quit by 1944.”

The policy isn’t “Go in big and get the job done.” Nor is it “Get out fast before any more Americans get hurt.” Instead, it’s the “Surrender Surge.” Go in big so you can get out fast.

And the emphasis is clearly on getting out.

It’s been noted that Obama never used the words “victory” and “win” once in his speech. Why would he? His key audience - the liberal base of his party - doesn’t care about a win. They just want out.

Their rallying cry isn’t “V for Victory,” but the somewhat less inspiring “T for Transition!” “Transition” and “transfer” appeared a combined 10 times in Obama’s speech, along with “take over,” “handing over” and - in the extended director’s cut edition - “this is so over.”

All music to the ears of Obama’s base. According to Gallup, 67 percent of Democrats either want fewer troops or the same number we have now. When it comes to Afghanistan, there is no Kick Ass Caucus in the Democratic Party.

The four Democrats running in our Senate primary know that, which is why they’re trying to out-Code Pink each other. When Martha Coakley is the militarist in your crowd, you’re in extremely liberal company.

Obama knows what his party’s liberal base wants, too. And it was clear watching the flat, disengaged delivery of his war speech that Obama would be much happier delivering peace at any price - almost.

The price Obama is unwilling to pay is to his re-election chances by playing into the stereotype that liberals are weak on national security. That’s why his campaign promises to send more troops to Afghanistan were so different than the promises from our Democrats here in Massachusetts to oppose him every step of the way.

America is not Massachusetts. Most Americans believe our military has been a force for good, and that we have used our strength to make the world a better place. And millions of people liberated from Hitler, Soviet Communism and Saddam Hussein happen to agree.

But Massachusetts does represent the base of Obama’s party, and that base must be appeased. And so we get “Defeat Through Strength.” He sends in troops, and their combat instructions are “don’t bother to unpack.”

For 18 months we’ll pretend to fight a war. Some 100 or so soldiers and Marines will be killed - not for a military objective, but for a political one. To protect Obama and his party from the consequences of their Afghanistan policy.

Then in the summer before the 2012 election season, the troops will start coming home. The president will say “Well, we tried.” And Massachusetts liberals will be very, very happy.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2009 - 09:54am PT
http://www.aaper.org/site/c.quIXL8MPJpE/b.5284937/k.6060/AmericaPalestine_Report.htm


APR - The Gaza Freedom March, Bethlehem Imprisoned, and More‏
From: American Association for Palestinian Equal Rights (info@aaper.org)
Sent: Tue 12/01/09 12:14 PM

The Gaza Freedom March

November 2009 Legislation and Developments Regarding U.S. Policy Toward Palestine

Holy Land Trust Promotes Nonviolent Resistance to Discrimination in Palestine

Bethlehem: From 'Little Town' to Imprisoned City

The Price of Justice: Settler Violence Against Palestinians


The Gaza Freedom March
On December 31, 2009, 1,000 citizens from around the world march with 50,000 Palestinians in Gaza to "show the residents of Gaza that the international community of citizens has not forgotten them" and to "call worldwide attention to the ongoing humanitarian crisis." This innovative and powerful expression of nonviolent resistance to the siege of Gaza is known as the Gaza Freedom March. More...


November 2009 Legislation and Developments Regarding U.S. Policy Toward Palestine
During the month of November, Congress saw the introduction of two pieces of legislation pertaining to Palestine and Israel. Also, this month, the White House expressed 'dismay' at an Israeli announcement of continued settlement expansion in the occupied Palestinian territories. More...


Holy Land Trust Promotes Nonviolent Resistance to Discrimination in Palestine
In Bethlehem, Sami Awad of the Holy Land Trust, sees a vision of widespread and organized nonviolent resistance that has the power to "stimulate international and Israeli society to put pressure on their governments to end the occupation." More...



Bethlehem: From 'Little Town' to Imprisoned City
This December, millions of people around the world will gaze upon their Christmas trees and sing about the 'little town of Bethlehem.' But, in Palestine, thousands of inhabitants of the modern city of Bethlehem will spend the holidays in virtual imprisonment. After over 40 years of occupation, Bethlehem is today a shadow of what it once was. More...



The Price of Justice: Settler Violence Against Palestinians
As Israel takes small steps toward dismantling outposts in the occupied Palestinian territories, settlers are responding with violence against Palestinians. This tactic, known as the 'price tag strategy,' threatens to undermine any attempt by a willing Israeli government to deal with the issue of settlements and settlement outposts once and for all. More...


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 4, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
Chechnyans and Russians are going at it...actually Russia is taking it.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-russia-chechens3-2009dec03,0,5323524.story

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=284878&D=2009-12-04&SO=&HC=1

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259831456324&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I gotta feeling the sleeping bear may get really pissed off pretty soon.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 4, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
With roughly 25k insurgent casualties in both Afghanistan and Iraq over the course of those respective conflicts, it's costing us $40mil / insurgent to wage these wars. For our two trillion expended across these two wars we could have just given every man, woman, and child in both countries $33k to buy them off and still have had change left over.

Anyone who thinks $40mil per terrorist kill is an effective or sustainable defense of our nation is an idiot.
WBraun

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
Anyone who thinks $40mil per terrorist kill is an effective or sustainable defense of our nation is an idiot.


Yes, not only that they are idiots period!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
Don't you mean DOT?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 4, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
Anyone who thinks $40mil per terrorist kill is an effective or sustainable defense of our nation is an idiot.


Since it takes only one terrorist to plant a bomb and kill 26 innocent train passengers and live to bomb again, are you so sure of that?

What is an innocent life worth?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 4, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
Recently spotted in Afghanistan.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20091204.aspx

Now, no reason for a stealth UAV there unless it's going to Iran.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 4, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
Since it takes only one terrorist to plant a bomb and kill 26 innocent train passengers and live to bomb again, are you so sure of that?

How many potential terroist who would like to do us harm here on our soil do you suppose there are in the world right at this moment?

How many with backing enough to at least think about it in any serious way?

How many attack attempts do you think there will be over the next decade?

$40mil per 'terrorist' kill - 99.9% of whom don't fall into the above categories is a complete waste of resources dedicated to defending our nation and interests. You might as well burn it for all it does for our security here in the U.S.
nutjob

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Dec 4, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
Help... me... I'm... slipping...

Bluering, you are an idiot.


Doh! Ok, I'll try to be more focused and constructive. Blue, do you honestly think that large-scale terrorism could survive a generation where every family had sufficient food, clothing, shelter, and education? The transition away from current conditions will take more than 1 generation, because of the deeply ingrained first-hand pain and loss, and the difficulty of emotional healing and the ease with which humans resort to vengeance and paybacks in response to injustice.

There will always be anomalous individuals, but how many "terrorists" are born in the USA who are willing to die for their cause? This only happens when life is such crap that dying seems like a better option.

Escaping the vortex now, hopefully not returning to these threads for several months at least.


Edit: OK last for a while I promise...

Blue: the simple answer to your query about the terrorist who kills 26 and goes off to try it again... For every 1 we kill, we create 10/100/1000 more. Violence begets violence. It doesn't end.

Our enemy is not the people committing acts of violence, but violence itself. Our efforts and $$$ should be focused on eradicating violence at its roots, not eradicating the violent people who are symptoms of an imbalanced society that creates the conditions for violence.
nutjob

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Dec 4, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
Sheizer. The problem with trying to pay attention to world problems is that they just get too complicated and hurt your head.

I like Werner's approach of hiding out in the mountains. I've always threatened to do that but I don't have the gumption for it.

Carry on.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 4, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
There will always be anomalous individuals, but how many "terrorists" are born in the USA who are willing to die for their cause? This only happens when life is such crap that dying seems like a better option.

Major Hasan?

The whole premise of us creating more terrorists is 'idiotic', to use your term, Nutjob. Why do you suppose those people are driven to terrorism?

If it's poverty, wouldn't altering the government (removing Talib psychos) help out a lot?

If it's religious indoctrination, wouldn't getting rid of the Talib psychos help out?

How about the mosques in Britain that constantly spew hate against Brits?

Yeah, maybe if we just were nice and gave them what they wanted, sharia tolerance, they would be happier....and we'd lose our countries.

Keep your head in the sand, dude, I won't!


Did you hear about this sh#t?
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/17508

I didn't think so....


EDIT: It's also very pussy-like to call me an "idiot" and then say you're leaving. WTF???
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 6, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
i never would have believed it possible for a president to not understand his own commands to his chief commander in the field:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/05/AR2009120501376_pf.html
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Dec 8, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
At least someones doing work to help survivors after an Iranian device
goes off in one of our cities.

http://www.physorg.com/news176395872.html

...The center is dedicated to identifying and developing small molecule radiation protectors and mitigators that can be easily accessed and administered in the event of a large-scale radiological or nuclear emergency.


WBraun

climber
Dec 8, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
Today I read: Troop surge will halt Taliban, McChrystal says

Don't those guys just run across the border back to Pakistan and wait till troops leave?

Wouldn't you?
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Dec 8, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
Fattrad wrote:
Hmmmm, Israel just got two new nuke firing subs, what could they be used for?

uhm... end times?

says so in the....


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 14, 2009 - 03:48am PT
Hanukah bump

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8410916.stm

The Israeli cabinet has decided to include some West Bank settlements in a national scheme that will entitle them to millions of dollars' worth of funds.
They are being designated as national priority zones, meaning they will qualify for grants, tax benefits, and other forms of aid.

The move comes amid anger by Jewish settlers at a government-imposed curb on new building in settlements.

The Labour Party leader warned some of the new money might go to extremists.

On Friday a mosque in the West Bank was set on fire, and sprayed with Hebrew graffiti.
Labour leader Ehud Barak said: "I don't think that we need to award them a prize in the form of including them in the national priority map."

..
The national priority zones plan is designed to funnel money into deprived areas. About two million Israelis live in those areas - approximately 110,000 of them in West Bank settlements.
The international community considers all settlements in Israeli-occupied Palestinian land as illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

A senior government official said far more Israeli Arabs than Jewish settlements - eight times as many - would benefit from the programme.

But opposition parties denounced the inclusion of settlements, saying it proved the government was not committed to a peace process with the Palestinians.

The Kadima Party said it "cancelled out any declaration made by [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu regarding two states for two peoples".

The left-wing Meretz faction submitted a motion of no-confidence in response to the plan.
But Mr Netanyahu denied the change had any implications for the peace process.

"We will determine the future of settlements only within the framework of a permanent agreement [with Palestinians]," he said.
Norton

Social climber
the Middle Class
Dec 14, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
It is very unlikely there will be a permanent state of Palestine, as Fattrad
seems to believe.

Hamas will never agree to the most very basic of terms, to "recognize
Israel's right to exist". And Hamas and their terrorist friends are in charge.

It is naive to believe this will come true, therefore the "clash" will
continue indefinitely.


edit: it is sign of respect for Obama to be dissed by a terrorist organization. They know he is after their ass all over the globe.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 14, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
Don't get caught 'adultering' in Somalia under Sharia law...(somewhat graphic images at link)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1235763/Pictured-Islamic-militants-stone-man-death-adultery-Somalia-villagers-forced-watch.html
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 15, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
Fattrad: Why Israel doesn't trust Brittain and to a certain extent the US:

What, did one of our checks bounce?
Norton

Social climber
the Middle Class
Dec 16, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
I would not be surprised if Israel took out those missile sites, and
also took out Iran's uranium enrichment plans at the same time.
And I would not blame Israel, in spite of the hellish uproar it would
create in the middle east.
The Iranian government, not their people, need to be treated like children
and slapped down when they openly threaten a peaceful existence with their neighbors.
Norton

Social climber
the Middle Class
Dec 16, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
Actually Jeff, Democrats have no problem at all with going to war, for all
the right reasons.

It is your Republicans who sent our men and women and taxpayer money
into the unjustified nation building foreign policy nightmare of Iraq.
The cost is now well OVER ONE TRILLION DOLLARS, a complete waste of
lives and money.

Talk about blowing our deficit and national debt sky high.
And at the SAME time cutting taxes for the rich ONE TRILLION DOLLARS.

Pure fiscal irresponsibility.

Our US Dollar is collapsing because of Republican wild ass spending.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 18, 2009 - 11:43am PT
could this be the event biden warned us about during the campaign?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580560,00.html?test=latestnews

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 18, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
makes sense, but i'm far more interested in barry's response

what do you think?

"open hand"?

"personal letter"?

a meeting "without preconditions"?

another prime time "press conference" or a speech at the naval academy?
Norton

Social climber
the Middle Class
Dec 19, 2009 - 08:20am PT
Obama Orders Cruise Missiles to Strike Yemen



On orders from President Barack Obama, the U.S. military launched cruise missiles early Thursday against two suspected al-Qaeda sites in Yemen, administration officials told ABC News in a report broadcast on ABC World News with Charles Gibson.


ABC's Brian Ross details missile strike on al-Qaeda militants in Afghanistan.
One of the targeted sites was a suspected al Qaeda training camp north of the capitol, Sanaa, and the second target was a location where officials said "an imminent attack against a U.S. asset was being planned."

The Yemen attacks by the U.S. military represent a major escalation of the Obama administration's campaign against al Qaeda.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cruise-missiles-strike-yemen/story?id=9375236
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 19, 2009 - 10:47am PT
Norton, you need to do some 'googling'. "Saudi Arabia Yemen Houthis" should get you the facts.

Basically a bunch of Shia 'rebels' have strated an uprising by attacking Yemeni facilities and attacking Saudi southern border posts. The Saudis opened up a can of whoop-ass and started F-15 airstrikes and shellings with white phosphorus...OMG!@!!!

Iran press tv is saying "US airstrikes" but that is propoganda, it's US F-15's sold to the Saudis doing the whoopin'.

Looks like the Saudis taked us into launching some 'Naval assets' though, we do have a bunch of boats floating around in that area between Iraq and pirate Naval patrols off Somalia.

Iran is suspected to have a huge hand in this too. They're sending peeps and hardware to the Houthis.

Norton

Social climber
the Middle Class
Dec 19, 2009 - 11:17am PT
Ok, how about: "CIA" Missile Strike? instead of US Strike, MUCH clearer?





CIA Killed U.S. Citizen In Yemen Missile Strike

Action's Legality, Effectiveness Questioned
by Dana Priest

A U.S. citizen was among the people killed in the pilotless missile strike on suspected al Qaeda terrorists in Yemen Sunday, administration officials confirmed yesterday, adding a new element to an attack that reflects the evolving nature of the U.S. war on terrorism around the world.

Ahmed Hijazi and five other suspected al Qaeda operatives were killed by a five-foot long Hellfire missile launched from a remote controlled CIA Predator aircraft as they rode in a vehicle 100 miles east of the Yemeni capital, Sanaa.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 19, 2009 - 11:54am PT
well done, mr. president, well done...i was afraid you might have left your testicles in norway...i support you 100% anytime you offer the terrorists a clenched fist rather than an "open hand"
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 19, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
Another day, another graveyard of Saddam's...

http://207.114.86.27/poparticle.php?ID=285974&D=2009-12-19&SO=&HC=2



Hey Norton, they didn't indicate what the "American" was doing in an Al Qaeda training base did they? Hmmm...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 19, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
Oh yeah, I've been following this for a couple of weeks now, here;

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=114947445023944268408.000478a74738680f5fc79&ll=16.913625,43.411102&spn=0.557087,0.883026&t=h&z=10

click on the blue markers for links...zoom out too to see the southern area and the recent conflicts
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 19, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
More "love and tolerance" shown by "moderate" Indonesian muzzies.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/12/indonesia-mob-of-1000-muslims-storms-a-church-under-construction.html




Norton

Social climber
the Middle Class
Dec 24, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
I can think of no higher compliment than have that A hole mock our President
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/23/eman-bin-laden-osama-daug_n_401563.html

"CAIRO — A daughter of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden has taken refuge in the Saudi Embassy in Tehran after eluding guards who have held her, her sister and four brothers under house arrest for eight years, a Saudi-owned newspaper reported Wednesday.

It has long been believed that Iran has held in custody a number of bin Laden's children since they fled Afghanistan following the U.S.-led invasion of that country in 2001 – most notably Saad and Hamza bin Laden, who are thought to have held positions in al-Qaida.

This year, U.S. officials said Saad bin Laden may have been killed by a U.S. airstrike in Pakistan, where they said he may have fled after being freed from Iran, but they could not confirm the information.

But Omar bin Laden, another son who lives abroad, told the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper that Eman told relatives in a call from the embassy that 29-year-old Saad and four other brothers were still being held in Iran.

Attempts by The Associated Press to reach Omar were not immediately returned, and there was no comment from Iranian or Saudi officials.

Asharq Al-Awsat said the 17-year-old daughter, Eman, slipped away from guards and fled to the Saudi Embassy nearly a month ago. The embassy's charge d'affaires, Fouad al-Qassas, confirmed to the paper that she has been at the mission for 25 days and that there were diplomatic efforts with the Iranians to get her out of the country...."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 24, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
I gotta hand it to these guys, they ain't stupid.

Anthrax-laced heroin. Shoot up, Infidel! If the heroin doesn't kill ya, the anthrax will.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6967068.ece

I wonder if the Hollywood starlet that recently passed got some of this "high-quality Afghani" junk?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091226/D9CR03OG0.html

When's someone going to send these people some money, guns and training?

Don't think it would take much.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
It looks like the revolution has started.

"Saturday December 26th, 2009

In the name of God the Merciful & Forgiving

Praise be to God and peace on the His Messenger (PBUH) and his family
I take refuge in Allah from the accursed Satan

The coordination center for National Iranian Armed Resistance Forces (NIRU) hereby declares its existence & accuses the current government and the leader of the Islamic Revolution, Mr. Sayyed Ali Khamenei of legal transgressions and high treason of nation and homeland.

We, a number of Officers, Soldiers and personnel of the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran, hereby declare our readiness for rise to the armed defense of our nation against the forces of the criminal, illegitimate, transgressing and occupying current Government of Iran, and hereby inform our brothers and sisters serving with the armed security forces of Iran, invite them to join us, request their support and ask them to provide cover for us in this moral & national act. A special request for support & cooperation goes to our brothers of the Military Police.



Our action has no political or revolting aspects. We’d rather see our actions as the carrying out of the moral & national duties of all soldiers & Iranians. Our intention is the defense of the oppressed against oppressors, and avoidance of further crimes committed by the illegitimate Government, as well as the return of freedom, peace, order & justice to our land.

Now, after 6 months of crisis, oppression, crimes, repeated violent transgressions of our nation’s rights, as well as the trampling of Constitutional & moral laws, the Leader and other main agents of the Government have stripped themselves of their qualification and legitimacy by committing these acts or failing to carry out their legal & moral duties and therefore are considered an occupying and forced regime. In accordance with the regulations of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Iran, we are commissioned to protect the lives, properties and honor of our nation, and defend our sacred soil, as well as combat all occupying forces within the borders of the land. Any failure in carrying out this duty is considered a betrayal of nation and oath. According to the constitution, the defense of the rights of the nation of Iran, and avoidance of the collapse of the country takes precedence over protection of the ruling regime. Such (defensive) action is “promotion of the good & rejection of wrong” which one is of the two main principles of our constitution, the other being democracy.

In accordance with the decision of this command, and in carrying out our national & moral duties, we hereby announce the initiation of Operation “Azadi” (Freedom).

Name of Operation: Azadi (Freedom)
Start of Operation: December 27th, at noon
End of operation: Upon declaration of acceptance by trusted & esteemed high ranking regime officials & unconditional surrender of the occupying Government & leadership.

Operational Stages:

1. Immediate creation of command and coordination centers at tactical level for seizing your places of service (bases,etc…) with complete observance of rank & military regulations.

2. Disarming & arrest of Government supporting agents within your units & transfer to military detention facilities under strict observance of their rights.

3. Announcement of seizing of your station & recitation of the principles and aims of the operation through military & public communication facilities as well as other news media.

4. Establishment of communication with allied units & coordination of operations

5. Start of combat mission at regional level, and expanding. In order to better identify ourselves to allies and protesting people, green symbols and the Hosseinian (green) banner should be flown next to our national tricolor banner.

Rules of Engagement:

1. Use of firearms is only permitted in defense of lives, property & honor of our people and allied forces.

2. In case they face Government forces, NIRU officers are obliged to establish communication & negotiate with the commanders of the opposite force in order to avoid violence.

3. Disarming & temporary arrests of opposing forces is permitted.

4. In case of request for cease-fire, and announced willingness to surrender by opposing forces, NIRU commanders are to carefully consider the proposition and, whenever possible, agree with such, and proceed as in rule 3 of engagement.

5. Refrain from heavy fire exchanges in residential areas and in the presence of civilians.

6. Avoid destruction (damage) of public or private properties

7. The responsibility to uphold the rights, and the lives of prisoners lays with the commander of the arresting unit & thereafter with the command of the prison.

8. Avoid any violent confrontation with unarmed civilians.

9. The responsibility to uphold public peace and order in (re)conquered areas lays with NIRU in accordance with the Artesh regulations for (re)conquering occupied areas within the borders of Iran, and in cooperation with local police & security forces.

10. Martial Courts can’t be held during the length of the operation.

Operational goals in combat theatre:

1. Defense of lives, properties, honor and rights of citizens within the borders of the land.

2. Downfall of the illegitimate & occupying rule of Mr. Sayyed Ali Khamenei, and the transgressing current Government.

3. Seizing & defense of the Parliament.

4. Seizing and defense of Government (Central & Provincial) buildings, Basij and other military bases & facilities nationwide.

5. Seizing & defense of Radio & TV stations across the nation.

6. Seizing & defense of prisons, supervising proper & legal treatment, freeing of political prisoners after appropriate due diligence & in coordination with responsible officials.

Cease-fire & end of operation conditions:

1. Establishment of a temporary Government in coordination and cooperation with members of parliament, members of the steering committee of the Expediency Council, Steering Committee of the Assembly of Experts for leadership, and other political & social elites & activists.

2. Carrying out a referendum within 3 months of formation of temporary Government, to determine whether people would want a new regime based on democracy & separation of 3 powers principles, observation of human rights, respect for all faiths & religions, legal equality of genders and religions.

3. Formation of an independent, impartial and just council to reform the constitution and other laws of the land, in order to avoid any future repetition of such deviations and oppression, this council should be in cooperation with all political parties & movements, as well as social, scientific and cultural groups.

4. Holding of free parliamentary, and presidential elections within 9 months of the referendum.

5. Dissolution of Basij forces, fusion of IRGC security forces, and police to a national police force.

6. Fusion of IRGC Combat Forces with the Artesh to form an apolitical, and national Army without interfering in economic, social or cultural affairs of the country.

End of announcement

Original Farsi :
http://dadiirandoust.mihanblog.com/post/14 "
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
Now Yemen is the new Afghanistan/Pakistan...


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6969645.ece

More Yemeni-trained airline bombers?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
A little noticed event overshadowed by the holiday, Detroit bomber and events in Iran is that Israel recalled ALL ambassadors for consultations over the weekend.

WBraun

climber
Dec 29, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
Israel or UK forged nukes report on Iran

US intelligence sources have confirmed Iran's assertions that a document published by a British daily about Tehran's nuclear program is a fabrication.

He added, however, that US intelligence sources mainly suspect Israel of carrying out the forgery, although, they do not rule out the possibility of the British having played a part in it.


http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=114871&ionid=351020104
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
Werner, Iran PressTV is known to be an unreliable arm of the Iran gov't.

just sayin'...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 30, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
Pull your head out of your clash - it's time to deal with the Israelis once and for all - a month with settlement activity is a month without a check.
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
healyje has it correctly fattrad
Gene

Social climber
Dec 30, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
XLI, not XXXXI
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
Gee fattrad, I don't know - could it be because western industrialized nations, led by the U.S. with half the take, pull oceans of oil and gas out of Nigeria every year by collaborating with thugs to whom we throw chump change while 99% of the population of Nigeria sees none of it?

12 million barrels of oil / day * $80 = $350 billion dollars annually
20 billion cubic meters of gas / year @ $4 = $80 billion dollars annually

Value of Nigerian petroleum exports: $430 billion dollars annually
What we pay the thugs for that: $76 billion

Nigerian Gold reserves - $53 billion

Average annual income in Nigeria - $330

Hey, if I were Nigerian and could do the math I might be a 'terrorist' too, but then I'm picky that way.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
And US prisons don't spawn more crime? Maybe we should never release criminals either? 99% of Quantanamo prisoners had zero value. Said Ali al-Shihri, and Ibrahim Suleiman al Rubaish may have been two worth holding on to in Illinois. But these guys are Saudis just like the 9/11 crew. And let's be clear, talking about a nebulous 'al-Qaeda' is just a way for the US not to have to explicitly talk about Saudi Arabia and our oil.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Dec 31, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
Fatty

What if Iran had few fully loaded Russian made intercontinental nuke with price tag of 2 billion per unit?.

Date of delivery mid 1990s

You still think nuking them will solve the problem ?




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
I'm with you, we should take Saudi Arabia.

Too late, but if oil had been discovered eleven years earlier, the Brits would have never given it back to the tribes.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Jan 2, 2010 - 04:23am PT
They feel pretty strongly against images.

If I could draw better, I might get into some of that. Fatwah against me. First one on my block to get a Fatwah.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 3, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
Hey, I thought if Spain capitulated to Taliban requests to back out of the war they would be safe???

http://207.114.86.27/poparticle.php?ID=287057&D=2010-01-03&SO=&HC=2

If we just leave them be, they'll play nice, right? Worked for Spain, right?

wrong.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Jan 6, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
Club Gitmo t-shirt still in style thanks to our President


Reeotch

Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
Jan 7, 2010 - 11:41am PT
Ok, all you Hawks, and Obama supporters out there, I'd like you to respond to this interview with Mr. Allan Nairn. Specifically on this point:

"OK, they have an al-Qaeda target, or whatever target, some armed man in some compound somewhere, and they bomb it, and they also kill the person’s wife and the kids and their extended family and the friends who were there for dinner. Imagine. Imagine if that happened here. Let’s say al-Qaeda occupied New York. They set up checkpoints on Seventh Avenue. And if a car tried to run the checkpoints, they’d machine-gun the car, as the US does in Iraq. Or they ran drones over Washington, DC, and they were taking out US officials in their backyards as they did barbecues in suburban Virginia or as they were going for coffee in Dupont Circle. How would Americans react to that? In fact, how would Americans react if some young American went out and killed some of those al-Qaeda occupiers? The question answers itself.
I mean, when you do things like this, when you make humans into bugsplat, you invite response. So, stop the killing, and you get a benefit. You’ll probably make yourself safer, as well."

But, also any thoughts you have on the entire interview
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/6/obama_has_kept_the_machine_set

For the record, I supported neither Bush nor Obama. It was disappointing to me that there was no real choice for peace in the last two presidential elections.

Violence begets violence. If we want our country to be "safe" from terrorists, then maybe we should also stop terrorizing innocent people in other countries.
Reeotch

Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
Jan 7, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
The dead don't claim anything. We, our military, are the ones who claim they are Al Queda. It is like a magic word; all you have to do is claim someone is a terrorist or AlQueda member, and you are cleared to act as judge jury and executioner.

It won't be long before they start applying that same logic to our own citizens. If you are a suspected terrorist then all your rights go out the window. No need to prove anything.

Besides fattrad, you are avioding my original point.
In a nutshell: Wouldn't we react in a similar way if a foreign military was carring out the same actions on American soil?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 7, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
According to the Pakistanis our drone strikes have been very effective at ONLY targeting militants lately.

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=287334&D=2010-01-07&SO=&HC=1

And you rarely hear about the humanitarian things we do there

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/6931275/Army-medics-save-Afghan-boy-from-tetanus-death.html
Reeotch

Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
Jan 7, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
fattrad, you are still avoiding the point/question.


And, believe me, I am shakin' in my boots about being declared a target. Its just soooo scarweeeee!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 7, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
Fatty, you have been predicting attacks on Iran for years.
Every time with short term certainty.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but your predictions never are.

Do you ever get just a little tired of being wrong?

You do know you are considered the best "fade" on the planet, don't you?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 8, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
Don't forget the 140 killed yesterday in predominately Christian southern Sudan.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/01/07/96620.html
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 8, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
Meanwhile, things of real strategic consequence are happening on the down low...

China, Nigeria Discuss Investment in Oil, Electricity
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 8, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
Afghanistan, civilians turning against US occupation?


(AP) KABUL - Thousands of Afghans shouting "Death to America!" protested the killings of children Thursday, the latest in a string of controversial cases in which international forces have been blamed for civilian deaths.

U.S. Gen. Stanley McChrystal has ordered troops to use airstrikes judiciously and fire cautiously to reduce civilian casualties. Still, each new report of civilians killed unleashes raw emotions that highlight a growing impatience with coalition forces' inability to secure the nation.

There are fears the problem could get worse with 37,000 U.S. and NATO reinforcements already starting to stream into the country as part of a military buildup.

More civilians die at the hands of insurgents, yet any time innocent victims are killed, the Taliban wastes no time in blaming foreign troops.

"Every time the Taliban kills civilians, nothing happens. There is no protest. There is nothing," said Hroon Mir, an independent political analyst in Kabul. "But whenever there are civilian casualties from NATO or Afghan forces, then there is a reaction."

President Hamid Karzai has not been shy about denouncing the deaths -- sometimes even before investigations can conclude whether civilians or militants were killed.

In a meeting this week with political analysts, Karzai said he would speak out boldly on the issue at a conference on Afghanistan Jan. 28 in London.

"If you don't care about civilian casualties, you should not think about victory," Karzai said he would tell the international community, according to Waheed Mozhdah, independent political analyst in Kabul who attended the meeting.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 12, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
Come on Fatty...Is keeping a form of this thread alive one of your homework assignments from somewhere?

Peace

Karl
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 12, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
no worries...dem candidate for senate says no more terrorists in afghanistan

http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/01/martha-coakley-is-not-just-wrong-on-war-on-terror-shes-dangerous-must-see-video/


how do we win the war on terror? just claim there is no war...we win!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 12, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
Even if Mossad didn't do it, they want them to think they did.

Covert war on Iran's nuclear program reaches into Tehran

DEBKAfile Special Report

January 12, 2010, 12:44 PM (GMT+02:00)
Nuclear physicist Masoud Ali Mohammadi

Nuclear physicist Masoud Ali Mohammadi

DEBKAfile reports: The covert war against Iran's nuclear program struck deep inside the Islamic Republic with the death Tuesday, Jan. 12 of nuclear physicist professor Masoud Ali Mohammadi, 50, by a remote-controlled exploding motorbike as he left his Tehran home. He was a senior professor at Tehran University which DEBKAfile's Iranian sources say is an important hub of nuclear weapons research.

Those sources stress that his death was unrelated to the political turbulence sweeping Iran since the June elections; state-run Press TV described him as a "staunch supporter" of Iran's 1979 revolution.

The targeting of the scientists in the heart of Tehran by a remote-controlled explosion shows that the covert agencies working to sabotage Iran's controversial nuclear program have managed to plant death squads in the Iranian capital like those operating in Damascus. Shadowy inside elements are therefore threatening the military nuclear projects of both these allies.

Before launching their investigation, Iranian officials laid the incident at the door of the Israel Mossad or the Paris-based Mujaheddin Khalq dissidents, which Tehran believes are sponsored by the CIA and the Mossad.

Iranian authorities see Mohammadi's death as ramping up the Western effort to recruit, intimidate or liquidate the brains behind Iran's nuclear progress and a warning. They are already keeping these scientists closely quarantined and forbidden overseas travel, their movements and correspondence closely monitored. But they failed to guard Prof. Mohammadi, just as last year two nuclear scientists managed to escape and apparently defected to the US: Shahram Amiri went missing while on a pilgrimage Saudi Arabia and a man known as "Ardebili" was allegedly arrested in Georgia and not seen since.

In Jan. 2007, a leading nuclear scientist Ardeshir Hassanbpour, professor at Shiraz University died of gas suffocation at his home in mysterious circumstances. And one more or more car accidents fall into the same unexplained category.

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jan 13, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100113/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_turkey

Israel apologizes to Turkey over insult

JERUSALEM – Israel on Wednesday caved in to demands from Turkey and apologized over an insult to its ambassador in an attempt to defuse the latest crisis between the two nations, a government statement said.

On Monday, Israel's deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon, summoned the Turkish ambassador to complain about a TV show. The ambassador was forced to sit on a low sofa without a handshake, while the Ayalon explained to local TV stations that the humiliation was intentional.

Outraged, Turkey threatened to recall the ambassador.

Late Wednesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said a letter of apology has been written, and the premier "hopes this will end the affair." Israeli officials said the letter was delivered to Turkish officials in Ankara.

According to quotes obtained by The Associated Press, the letter said in part, "The disputes between Israel and Turkey will be solved in a respectful and mutual manner between the two governments. There was no intention to humiliate the ambassador personally. I apologize for the way Israel's protest was presented."

There was no immediate response from the Turkish government.

The crisis erupted Monday, when Ayalon summoned the Turkish ambassador, Ahmet Oguz Celikkol, to complain about a Turkish television drama that has been perceived as anti-Semitic. The show, "The Valley of the Wolves," depicts Israeli security forces kidnapping children and shooting old men.

Ayalon's detailed explanation of his insult to Israeli TV cameras in the room was made in Hebrew, and the ambassador did not react.

Asked Wednesday what would have happened if Ayalon had made the comments in English instead of Hebrew, Celikkol said, "The meeting would have ended there, and I would just have left." He was interviewed in Tel Aviv by Turkey's state-run Anatolia news agency.

Earlier Wednesday, Ayalon issued a statement admitting that his behavior was undiplomatic, but falling short of an apology. Turkey rejected that and threatened to withdraw its ambassador if a formal apology was not forthcoming.

Over the past decade, the two states had built up a strong relationship, including military cooperation and tourism, making Turkey Israel's closest ally in the Muslim world.

Lately, however, Israel has been troubled by harsh statements from Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who was outraged by the high Palestinian civilian death toll. Israel is also concerned with a perception that Turkey is moving closer to Iran, considered by Israel as a strategic threat.

Days after the Gaza offensive began, Erdogan stalked off a stage he was sharing with Israeli President Shimon Peres at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, with the parting shot: "You kill people."

Turkey also canceled a high-profile military exercise with Israel last fall.

Erdogan reignited tensions on Monday by accusing Israel of threatening world peace, just before Ayalon summoned Celikkol for the public insult.

The statement from Netanyahu's office was said the Israeli leader "supported the essence of (Ayalon's) protest but distanced himself from the inappropriate style." It expressed concern over the deterioration of relations between the two countries and said the Israeli government would work "to find ways to prevent the continuation of this trend."
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 15, 2010 - 10:40am PT
victor davis hanson:

"The 19th-century discipline of philology argued that words were the key to understanding the past — if something in the past had existed, there surely was a proper recoverable word for it. And in turn, how a culture used vocabulary was a window into its very values. So when Barack Obama had his administration scrap the Manichean “war on terror” for “overseas contingency operations” aimed against “man-made disasters,” we understood that he had not signed up for a serious effort against radical Islam."

here's the rest: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjNkYWM2OWU3MzFlZTJhZWZiY2I3NTllMGQ2YmY2ODk=

tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:19am PT
I hate to reply to these threads, but I have a very poorly evidenced theory on the subject.

We are not going to attack Iran. Our politicians have been stirring us up about Iran for years and yet we never do anything about it.

The only reason I can see for this is that we are working with the Iranian government but niether side can publically admit it. I believe that in fact both of our governments benefit from the supposed antagonistic relationship.

I came to this conclusion during the so called "surge" in Iraq. Did 30,000 extra troops pacify a conflict that was political in nature? No politics did. Deals were cut. Okay what deals?

You don't read about in the American press, but outside our country it was reported that one of the major factors in the stabilization of Iraq was the cooperation if Iran which has major influence in Iraq and supplies many of the insurgents.

The question I have is what did we give in exchange for the stability?

The cynical part of me says we traded nukes for peace in Iraq. This may yet prove true, but perhaps we traded the appearance of nukes for a tacit recognition that Iran is the powerhouse in the region.

Remember that US intelligence estimate a few years back that said Iran gave up nuke programs? Then about a year later our media is all freaked out about nukes in Iran. Which one is it?

Whether they have or want nukes I don't know, but I do know that our government wants us to beleive that Iran is hot on the trail of nukes. That part is a fact.

Is our government lying to us, of course. Diplomacy and international relations is often a game of perception.

We've been cutting deals with the Clerics since the 1980's and possibly before if you believe that Reagan made a deal to not release the hostages under Carter.

Bottom line, I'll beleive this attack on Iran when I see it. The talk has more to do with domestic politics than actaul international relations. Iran and the US are now partners in the region.

The x-factor in the situation is these protesters in Iran and whether or not they can take on the revalutionary guard.




UncleDoug

Mountain climber
Places unkown
Jan 15, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
But subcontracting American national security to Israel is an appalling notion, and we cannot assume that an Israeli action would not provoke a wider regional conflict into which the U.S. would be drawn.

Exactly.

Nuke Israel
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Jan 15, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
Fattrad- Israel is the barking dog of the US. They didn't attack Iran when Hezbollah went after them a few years back. Iran pays for that Hezbollah crew and may have a direct say in their command, depending on who you read.

We have secret deals with all these guys.

You know how we see the big anti american demonstrations on tv, with uncle sam getting burned in effigy and we think, boy those dumb suckers are just getting stirred up by their backwards regime to deflect attention from the fact that they are ruled by a backwards regime?

We get the same stuff, for the same reason, but not as obvious our opinions are told to us by e-mail and to a slightly lesser extant the media.

Fatty, you like this kind of stuff and as a retired cop you have money, subscribe to Stratfor at Stratfor.com. It's $100 a year, but well worth it.

They try to filter the politics out of this stuff and tell you what is happening rather than what is supposed to be perceived as happening.

They can get spun by their sources like anyone else, but it is better.

Fatty, trust me on stratfor, they are not looney toons. You'll dig it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 16, 2010 - 05:11pm PT
Better late than never, dronezap

WASHINGTON: Half of India's population today wasn't born when she died in 1986 in a hail of gunfire on a hijacked plane after courageously
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saving scores of passengers, a feat for which she was posthumously awarded the Ashoka Chakra in India, Tamgha-e-Insaniyat in Pakistan and the Justice for Crimes Award in the US. Earlier this week, some 24 years after her heroism, one of her killers died a dog's death in the badlands of Pakistan, reportedly shot to pieces in a US drone attack.

The saga of Neerja Bhanot transfixed India at a time where there was no 24-hour news television and it had little to do with the fact that her father was a New Delhi journalist. She was a flight attendant on Pan Am Flight 73 as it headed out of Mumbai to Karachi en route to Frankfurt and onward to New York City. Four armed men dressed as airport security guards stormed the plane in Karachi. The cabin crew managed to alert the pilots, who decamped, effectively grounding the flight.

In the hours-long ordeal that followed, Neerja showed exemplary courage, attested by some 350 passengers who survived the nightmare, although some 20 died and 120 were wounded after hijackers opened fire on them when Pakistani commandos prepared to storm the plane. Among her acts of courage was her refusal to collect US passports and hiding some of them as the hijackers sought to isolate Americans and Indians. She knew they meant business when one of the hijackers pulled Rajesh Kumar, a 29-year-old Indian American California resident to the front of the aircraft, asked him to kneel at the door, and shot him in the head when their demand for a new flight crew was not met.

Neerja died shielding three children from gunfire as a bloody massacre erupted on the plane. The hijackers, who were said to be from the Abu Nidal Organisation, were eventually captured, tried, convicted, and sentenced to death in 1988. But in a Pakistan that became increasingly permissive about terrorism, the sentences were later commuted to life in prison.

In 2001, Zayd Hassan Abd Al-Latif Masud Al Safarini, the hijacker who shot Rajesh Kumar among others, was captured by the FBI in Bangkok after he was released in Pakistan and was on his way back to Jordan. He was taken to the US where he was sentenced to a 160-year prison term he is now serving in Colorado. Four others who were in Pakistan's Adiala jail were freed in January 2008 even as the US fumed about Islamabad's action. The FBI announced a $5 million bounty on their head, pretty much ensuring their days are numbered.

Earlier this week, Pakistani intelligence officials announced that a January 9 missile strike in the North Waziristan tribal region killed Jamal Saeed Abdul Rahim, one of the hijackers. His affiliation is disputed. The FBI's web site lists him as a Palestinian with possible Lebanese citizenship. The Pakistani officials called him an al-Qaida member, but the FBI site says he was a member of the Abu Nidal Palestinian terrorist group.

There are no doubts about Neerja's affiliation though. She belongs to India's Hall of Courage.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/24-yrs-after-Pan-Am-hijack-Neerja-Bhanot-killer-falls-to-drone/articleshow/5454295.cms
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Jan 20, 2010 - 02:24am PT
Read the Geneva Conventions (headache inducing) and came across the
Reprisal

In warfare, a reprisal is a limited and deliberate violation of the laws of war to punish an enemy who has already broken them. A legally executed reprisal is not an atrocity.

To be legally justified, a reprisal may be directed only against the party carrying out the original violation, may be carried out only as a last resort after formal notice of the planned reprisal having been given, must be proportionate to the original violation, must have the aim of persuading the original violator to comply with the legally accepted behavior in future, and must not continue after the illegal behavior ends.


I think this means we can drone attack the jihads forever until they quit
with the IED's.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 20, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
A clash of Ideologies, not civilizations.

A few errors, but overall a really insightful piece.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1263147931467&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 20, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
Wahabisim and beating little girls hardly qualifies as "civilization"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1244689/Saudi-girl-13--sentenced-90-lashes-took-mobile-phone-school.html
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 23, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
wapo opens a can of whup-ass on barry:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012204349.html

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 25, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
4 months ago you said, to paraphrase, "in 8 weeks Isreal will attack Iran."

What happened to your magical crystal ball, Fatty? McKain didn't come through fer ya?
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Jan 26, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
If I had a dime for every time fatty posted something about imminent war with Iran during the past 4+ years...

Just thought I'd post up so you don't feel like you are talking to yourself Fattrad!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 2, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
complete and utter incompetence from the top:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204575039201390613906.html
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 8, 2010 - 11:02am PT
this isn't specifically about barry, but it does represent exactly what is at stake in this clash...geert wilders is currently on trial in the netherlands (considered europe's "most tolerant" nation) for alleged hate speech...when wilders asked to call witnesses that could prove his statements were based on fact, the court offered this reply:

“It is irrelevant whether Wilders’s witnesses might prove Wilders’s observations to be correct, what’s relevant is that his observations are illegal.”


when it becomes "illegal" to speak the truth, the war might already have been lost

http://article.nationalreview.com/424251/western-civilization-on-trial/nro-symposium?page=1


Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Feb 8, 2010 - 11:11am PT
Laughed my ass off this morning.

WE ARE DEVO!


http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-iran-nuclear8-2010feb08,0,761271.story

So, Fatty, when are your boyz gonna put paid to this nonsense?
Or won't Barry give 'em the green light?
howlostami

Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
Feb 10, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
Fatty et al: what's your take on this?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6183KG20100209
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 10, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
Did AQ blow up the plane?


http://debka.com/article/8599/

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Feb 11, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
see the Meanwhile in Afghanistan thread, Slim. Special ops were in there last night 'softening' the place up.
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Feb 12, 2010 - 11:36am PT
Nice Cosmic! Although af first I thought
it was a fat chick in a frilly dress which
wouldn't be too far out of the realm of possibility.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 12, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
This is the Taliban /AQ Abu Ghraib X10

http://bigjournalism.com/bthor/2010/02/12/taliban-rape-tapes-a-muslim-abu-ghraib/

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 16, 2010 - 10:52am PT
from today's national review online, by daniel pipes:

February 16, 2010 12:00 A.M.

In Mideast, Bet on a Strong Horse

A new book on Arab politics has diagnosed a pathology.



The violence and cruelty of Arabs often perplexes Westerners.

Not only does the leader of Hezbollah proclaim “We love death,” but so too does, for example, the 24-year-old man who last month yelled “We love death more than you love life” as he crashed his car on the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge in New York City. As two parents in St. Louis honor-killed their teenage daughter with thirteen stabs of a butcher’s knife, the Palestinian father shouted “Die! Die quickly! Die quickly! . . . Quiet, little one! Die, my daughter, die!” — and the local Arab community supported them against murder charges. A prince from Abu Dhabi recently tortured a grain dealer whom he accused of fraud; although a video of the atrocity appeared on television internationally, the prince was acquitted while his accusers were convicted.

On a larger scale, one accounting finds 15,000 terrorist attacks since 9/11. Governments throughout the Arabic-speaking world rely more on brutality than on the rule of law. The drive to eliminate Israel still persists even as new insurrections take hold; the latest one has flared up in Yemen.

Several excellent attempts to explain the pathology of Arab politics exist; my personal favorites include studies by David Pryce-Jones and Philip Salzman. Now add to these The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations (Doubleday, $26), an entertaining yet deep and important analysis by Lee Smith, a visiting fellow at the Hudson Institute.

Smith takes as his prooftext Osama bin Laden’s comment in 2001, “When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse.” What Smith calls the strong-horse principle contains two banal elements: Seize power and then maintain it. This principle predominates because Arab public life has “no mechanism for peaceful transitions of authority or power sharing, and therefore [it] sees political conflict as a fight to the death between strong horses.” Violence, Smith observes is “central to the politics, society, and culture of the Arabic-speaking Middle East.” It also, more subtly, implies keeping a wary eye on the next strong horse, triangulating, and hedging bets.

Smith argues that the strong-horse principle, not Western imperialism or Zionism, “has determined the fundamental character of the Arabic-speaking Middle East.” The Islamic religion itself both fits into the ancient pattern of strong-horse assertiveness and actively promulgates it. Muhammad, the Islamic prophet, was a strongman as well as a religious figure. Sunni Muslims have ruled though the centuries “by violence, repression, and coercion.” Ibn Khaldun’s famous theory of history amounts to a cycle of violence in which strong horses replace weak ones. The humiliation of dhimmis daily reminds non-Muslims who rules.

Smith’s prism offers insights into modern Middle East history. He presents Pan-Arab nationalism as an effort to transform the mini-horses of the national states into a single super-horse and Islamism as an effort to make Muslims powerful again. Israel serves as “a proxy strong horse” for both the United States and the Saudi-Egyptian bloc in the latter’s Cold War rivalry with Iran’s bloc. In a strong-horse environment, militias appeal more than do elections. Lacking a strong horse, Arab liberals make little headway. The United States being the most powerful non-Arab and non-Muslim state makes anti-Americanism both inevitable and endemic.

Which brings us to the policies of non-Arab actors: Unless they are forceful and show true staying power, Smith stresses, they lose. Being nice — say, withdrawing unilaterally from southern Lebanon and Gaza — leads to inevitable failure. The George W. Bush administration rightly initiated a democratization project, raising high hopes, but then betrayed Arab liberals by not carrying through. In Iraq, the administration ignored advice to install a democratically minded strongman.

More broadly, when the U.S. government flinches, others (e.g., the Iranian leadership) have an opportunity to “force their own order on the region.” Walid Jumblatt, a Lebanese leader, has half-seriously suggested that Washington “send car bombs to Damascus” to get its message across and signal its understanding of Arab ways.

Smith’s simple and near-universal principle provides a tool to comprehend the Arabs’ cult of death, honor killings, terrorist attacks, despotism, warfare, and much else. He acknowledges that the strong-horse principle may strike Westerners as ineffably crude, but he correctly insists on its being a cold reality that outsiders must recognize, take into account, and respond to.

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Feb 17, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
Fatty

so who killed one of the humas leader in Dubai hotel ?

UncleDoug

Mountain climber
Places unkown
Feb 18, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
coz,

Let Jeff masturbate in public.
It just exposes him completely and sinks any of his political hopes.

You'll never change him.
He is a troll and a tool.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Feb 19, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
fattrad, i'm with coz and medusa.
i think that those who want to wage war, wish for war, need to be IN the war.

not sure if you are aware but WE ARE ALREADY IN TWO WARS THAT THE GOP STARTED...
one to retaliate 9/11 and the other for OIL AND CONTINUED CORP PROFITS.

so lets the sons and daughters of the war mongers, go to war..

smith/cosgrove 2012
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Feb 20, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
So will you guys that love to bang on Fatty for jerking your chains
and posting up ideas and articles which you rarely respond to in
a rational manner kindly elucidate how the Neville Chamberlain-kid-gloves
approach is supposed to work in the real world? To my knowledge
Machiavelli has never been refuted; it's all about money and power.
If you study the history of the Arabs you will learn that their
favorite pastime is beating on each other. If they didn't have the
Jews and us to beat on they'd be more than happy to go back to beating
on each other. It is what they do. They just don't do it very well.
They did for a while, like 600 years ago, but after they invented algebra
and lost Iberia it just got to be too much for them.

Oh, and what does one's climbing ability, past or present, have to do
with ones' opinions on an admittedly OT thread? That's the sort of
rebuttal you'd hear from a Hamas spokesman.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 22, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
The Clash is hype. You have a throbbing hard on for war, all conducted from the safety of your keyboard and rolodex.
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Feb 22, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
Fatty speaks the truth! No matter what side of Neville
Chamberlain you fall on you fail to read Zakaria at your
peril! He is the most balanced and perspicacious observer
of the Middle East extant. His columns are reason enough
to subscribe to Newsweek.
Nibs

Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
I am pleased to see references to Fareed Zacharia; an actual fair and balanced journalist. May I recommend his Sunday morning interviews, GPS (global public square) on CNN. In particular check out his interview with James Baker from last Sunday. Fat, I think you will find it enlightening:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/fareed.zakaria.gps/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
The Col. tells it like it is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtvLjxWtlQ

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:31am PT
i'm just happy barry has his priorities straight when it comes to defense:

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/02/25/obamateurism-of-the-day-217/

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 11:51am PT

This is an eye opening site. A real time counter of the costs of Bush's war. You can check out the ever increasing debt incurred to the whole US, any state, household, taxpayer or citizen.

http://www.costofwar.com/

Interestingly, individual state's debt burden neatly mirrors their projected budget short falls. Hmmmm, must be market forces. Bush Co and the boyz would never have done anything suspect or illegal.
I guess that makes all this financial doo doo Obama's fault.


Here are some interesting facts regarding the outrageous and egregious expenditures of the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Enron/Haliburton/Blackwater war machine.

Iraq War Facts, Results & Statistics at January 25, 2010
4,377 US Soldiers Killed, 31,639 Seriously Wounded
By Deborah White, About.com Guide
See More About:iraq wariraq war casualtiesiraq war spendingwar spendingbush failures


Feb 8 2010
For your quick reading, I've listed key statistics about the Iraq War, taken primarily from data analyzed by various think tanks, including The Brookings Institution's Iraq Index, and from mainstream media sources. Data is presented as of January 25, 2010, except as indicated.
U.S. SPENDING IN IRAQ

Spent & Approved War-Spending - About $900 billion of US taxpayers' funds spent or approved for spending through Sept 2010.

U.S. 2009 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $7.3 billion as of Oct 2009

U.S. 2008 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion

U.S. Spending per Second - $5,000 in 2008 (per Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on May 5, 2008)

Cost of deploying one U.S. soldier for one year in Iraq - $390,000 (Congressional Research Service)

Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.

Missing - $1 billion in tractor trailers, tank recovery vehicles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment and services provided to the Iraqi security forces. (Per CBS News on Dec 6, 2007.)

Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings

Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion

Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items - $20 billion

Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem "questionable or supportable" - $3.2 billion

Number of major U.S. bases in Iraq - 75 (The Nation/New York Times)

TROOPS IN IRAQ

Troops in Iraq - Total 115,000 U.S. troops as of November 30, 2009. All other nations have withdrawn their troops.

U.S. Troop Casualties - 4,377 US troops; 98% male. 91% non-officers; 82% active duty, 11% National Guard; 74% Caucasian, 9% African-American, 11% Latino. 19% killed by non-hostile causes. 54% of US casualties were under 25 years old. 72% were from the US Army

Non-U.S. Troop Casualties - Total 316, with 179 from the UK

US Troops Wounded - 31,639 through September 30, 2009, 20% of which are serious brain or spinal injuries. (Total excludes psychological injuries.)

US Troops with Serious Mental Health Problems - 30% of US troops develop serious mental health problems within 3 to 4 months of returning home

US Military Helicopters Downed in Iraq - 73 total, at least 36 by enemy fire

IRAQI TROOPS, CIVILIANS & OTHERS IN IRAQ

Private Contractors in Iraq, Working in Support of US Army Troops - More than 180,000 in August 2007, per The Nation/LA Times.

Journalists killed - 140, 93 by murder and 47 by acts of war

Journalists killed by US Forces - 14

Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed - 9,368

Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Roughly Estimated - 55,000

Non-Iraqi Contractors and Civilian Workers Killed - 569

Non-Iraqi Kidnapped - 306, including 57 killed, 147 released, 4 escaped, 6 rescued and 89 status unknown.

Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14

Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70

Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,255,000

Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 2.1 million to 2.25 million

Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Mar 3, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
Fatty,
The Clash isn't gonna come off so well if yur boyz
keep this up!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100303/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_facebook_fiasco

10 days? Weak! Shoulda been turned loose in Ramallah in his jockstrap.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 4, 2010 - 11:24am PT
Fatty may finally be right.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20100304.aspx
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Mar 4, 2010 - 11:58am PT
Fattrad: I use these threads to help stay tuned to different sources. Thanks for the effort (others too), it gives an easy way to "check" many viewpoints.

But isn't it about time to start a next "part?" And, BTW, in Roman numerals, 40 is more commonly written: XL, not XXXX. So your next installment might be better titled: XLII

Thanks again.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Mar 5, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
Fatty

looks like your plans is not working my man

Western powers circulated a draft in the UN Security Council for new sanctions against Iran over its nuclear program, as the US-led campaign to win support for the measure appears to have failed.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=120112§ionid=351020104
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 5, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
Maybe Fattys right and we should have turned south.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2399.htm
dirtbag

climber
Mar 6, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Yeah wars will solve everything.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 10, 2010 - 06:58am PT
you gotta love hitchens (from slate online):

"I have just finished reading one of the most astoundingly stupid and nasty documents ever to have landed on my desk. It consists of a letter from a law firm in Saudi Arabia, run by a man named Ahmed Zaki Yamani, to a group of newspapers in Scandinavia. I quote directly from its main paragraphs:

Over the past months my law firm has been contacted by several thousand descendants of the Prophet, who have learned about your newspaper's republication of the drawing, depicting their esteemed ancestor as a terrorist suicide bomber with a bomb in his turban.

As descendants of the Prophet, these individuals feel personally insulted, emotionally distressed and defamed by your newspaper's re-publication of the drawing. They have therefore retained my law firm and instructed me to approach you …

So that's the stupid part—the idea that people who claim descent from a seventh-century warlord and preacher have standing to sue for hurt feelings. The nasty bit comes a few paragraphs later:

t is my belief that your newspaper's fulfillment of the above-mentioned conditions would be perceived as a sign of respect and understanding throughout the Muslim world in general, and your newspaper might thus help resolve the severe conflict, which your re-publication of the drawing has created. As you may be aware, this conflict is still affecting Danish and Arab interests, in particular in the Middle East, where a number of Danish products are still being boycotted.

It is impossible not to notice the element of threat and menace contained in the second extract. It's not difficult to remind Danes of the organized campaign of hysterical retribution, ranging from the burnings of embassies to the mob-killing of civilians, that followed the first publication of some mild caricatures of the prophet Mohammed in 2005. Only a little further backstory is required: In 2008, it was discovered that a cell of eager murderers was planning to kill those who authored the caricatures, and in solidarity a large number of Danish newspapers reprinted the drawings in order to express their support for freedom of speech. Then, on New Year's 2009, a Somali fundamentalist chopped his way into the house of 74-year-old cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who was having a sleepover with his granddaughter, and very nearly succeeded in axing them both to death. The apology for all this, however, is supposed to be forthcoming not from the aggressors and inciters but from their victims. Late last month, Copenhagen newspaper Politiken agreed to make a public apology on the terms dictated by the Yamani law firm.

Celebrating this abject decision at a triumphant press conference in Beirut last week, Yamani repeated his bizarre claim to be the lawyer for no fewer than 94,923 descendants of the outraged prophet. Again, he made one utterly absurd statement and one extremely sinister one:

In our view, all religious icons of all religions, such as the Virgin Mary, Jesus Christ, Moses, and (not to be compared to prophets and messengers) others who are non-religious icons but have contributed to humanity like Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, the Dalai Lama, and others such as Ibn Sina, Ibn al-Haitham and Albert Einstein all deserve respect and protection from ridicule and defamation.

Cretinism on this historic level is comparatively rare. Apparently, Yamani thinks that Mahatma is a first name rather than a Hindu religious honorific and that the words "Dalai Lama" are a secular title. Moreover (and you have to admit that tossing in a Jewish name is a nice touch), he would protect the stern Spinozist Einstein from being lampooned for the many wrong surmises he made about the Big Bang and quantum theory. But while it is obvious that he knows nothing of such matters, he does know how to unveil a threat:

We wished that all the Danish Newspapers which published the Drawings accepted to enter into a settlement as Politiken did, and published an apology to avoid multiple jurisdictional litigations and costly damages in favor of our clients.

If you ask yourself whether Yamani cares more about the supernatural world or the grossly material one, it will not take very long to come up with an answer. You can detect it in the way that he balances the soft inducement against the hard threat of remembered mayhem: Yamani or your life.

But it is in the material world that newspapers are published and in which laws and constitutions exist that inscribe their right to print material without censorship and intimidation. It is also in the material world that laws protect grandfathers and their granddaughters from homicidal religious maniacs. Are we to surrender these hard-won rights in favor of the hectic emotions of people who claim a distant kinship with a quasi-mythological figure who was uneasy with both reading and writing and preferred to recite? This is without precedent. Are we now to be dogged with lawsuits by those in whose veins the blood of Henry VIII, Mussolini, Columbus, or Ivan the Terrible can be alleged to flourish? (At least—unless you believe Dan Brown—this will not be such a problem in the case of the Virgin Mary.)

The thing would be ridiculous if it were not so hateful and had it not already managed to break the nerve of one Danish newspaper. In Ireland a short while ago, a law against blasphemy was passed, making it a crime to outrage the feelings not just of the country's disgraced and incriminated Roman Catholic Church but of all believers. The same pseudo-ecumenical tendency can be found in the annual attempt by Muslim states to get the United Nations to pass a resolution outlawing all attacks on religion. It's not enough that faith claims to be the solution to all problems. It is now demanded that such a preposterous claim be made immune from any inquiry, any critique, and any ridicule.

This has to stop, and it has to stop right now. All democratic countries and assemblies should be readying legislation along the lines of the First Amendment, guaranteeing the right of open debate on matters of religion and repudiating the blackmail by law firms and individuals whose own true ancestry would not bear too much scrutiny."
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 10, 2010 - 07:07am PT
and then there's this tool who thinks we fought the japanese in ww2 because "they were different":


http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1969606,00.html


and this bigger tool who thinks it should be illegal to call a dictator a dictator:

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1969606,00.html


the most important 'clash' for us to win is the one with ourselves...why do you libs fawn over such idiots
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 10, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
More from the religion of peas.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100310/twl-gunmen-storm-us-charity-in-pakistan-696b303.html
UncleDoug

Mountain climber
Places unkown
Mar 12, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
Jeff,

Something got you nervous?
The only time you post with this veracity is when someone has taken you down a couple of notches.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 14, 2010 - 07:57am PT
Is Tom Hanks Unhinged?

Posted By Victor Davis Hanson On March 11, 2010 @ 5:38 pm In Uncategorized | 227 Comments

Much has been written of the recent Tom Hanks remarks to Douglas Brinkley in a Time magazine interview about his upcoming HBO series on World War II in the Pacific. Here is the explosive excerpt that is making the rounds today.

“Back in World War II, we viewed the Japanese as ‘yellow, slant-eyed dogs’ that believed in different gods. They were out to kill us because our way of living was different. We, in turn, wanted to annihilate them because they were different. Does that sound familiar, by any chance, to what’s going on today?”

Hanks may not have been quoted correctly; and his remarks may have been impromptu and poorly expressed; and we should give due consideration to the tremendous support Hanks has given in the past both to veterans and to commemoration of World War II; and his new HBO series could well be a fine bookend to Band of Brothers. All that said, Hanks’ comments were sadly infantile pop philosophizing offered by, well, an ignoramus.

Hanks thinks he is trying to explain the multifaceted Pacific theater in terms of a war brought on by and fought through racial animosity. That is ludicrous. Consider:

1) In earlier times, we had good relations with Japan (an ally during World War I, that played an important naval role in defeating imperial Germany at sea) and had stayed neutral in its disputes with Russia (Teddy Roosevelt won a 1906 Nobel Peace Prize for his intermediary role). The crisis that led to Pearl Harbor was not innately with the Japanese people per se (tens of thousands of whom had emigrated to the United States on word of mouth reports of opportunity for Japanese immigrants), but with Japanese militarism and its creed of Bushido that had hijacked, violently so in many cases, the government and put an entire society on a fascistic footing. We no more wished to annihilate Japanese because of racial hatred than we wished to ally with their Chinese enemies because of racial affinity. In terms of geo-strategy, race was not the real catalyst for war other than its role among Japanese militarists in energizing expansive Japanese militarism.

2) How would Hanks explain the brutal Pacific wars between Japanese and Chinese, Japanese and Koreans, Japanese and Filipinos, and Japanese and Pacific Islanders, in which not hundreds of thousands perished, but many millions? In each of these theaters, the United States was allied with Asians against an Asian Japan, whose racially-hyped “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere,” aimed at freeing supposedly kindred Asians from European and white imperialism, flopped at its inauguration (primarily because of high-handed Japanese feelings of superiority and entitlement, which, in their emphasis on racial purity, were antithetical to the allied democracies, but quite in tune with kindred Axis power, Nazi Germany.)

3) Much of the devastating weaponry used on the Japanese (e.g., the B-29 fire raids, or the two nuclear bombs) were envisioned and designed to be used against Germany (cf. the 1941 worry over German nuclear physics) or were refined first in the European theater (cf. the allied fire raids on Hamburg and Dresden). Much of the worst savagery of the war came in 1945 when an increasingly mobilized and ever more powerful United States steadily turned its attention on Japan as the European theater waned and then ended four months before victory in the Pacific theater. Had we needed by 1945 to use atomic bombs, or massive formations of B-29s when they came on line, against Hitler, we most certainly would have.

We should also point out that for many Americans, initially in 1941-2, the real war was with the Japanese, not the Germans (despite an official policy of privileging the European theater in terms of supply and manpower), but not because of race hatred, but due to the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

Until then (Hitler would in reaction unwisely declare war on the U.S. on December 11, 1941) Germany had been careful to maintain the pretense of non-belligerency, while Japan chose to start a war through a rather treacherous surprise assault at a time of nominal peace — thus inciting furor among the American public.

Despite Hanks’ efforts at moral equivalence in making the U.S. and Japan kindred in their hatreds, America was attacked first, and its democratic system was both antithetical to the Japan of 1941, and capable of continual moral evolution in a way impossible under Gen. Tojo and his cadre. It is quite shameful to reduce that fundamental difference into a “they…us” 50/50 polarity. Indeed, the most disturbing phrase of all was Hanks’ suggestion that the Japanese wished to “kill” us, while we in turn wanted to “annihilate” them. Had they developed the bomb or other such weapons of mass destruction (and they had all sorts of plans of creating WMDs), and won the war, I can guarantee Hanks that he would probably not be here today, and that his Los Angeles would look nothing like a prosperous and modern Tokyo.

4) What is remarkable about the aftermath of WWII is the almost sudden postwar alliance between Japan and the U.S., primarily aimed at stopping the Soviets, and then later the communist Chinese. In other words, the United States, despite horrific battles in places like Iwo Jima and Okinawa, harbored little official postwar racial animosity in its foreign policy, helped to foster Japanese democracy, provided aid, and predicated its postwar alliances — in the manner of its prewar alliances — on the basis of ideology, not race. Hanks apparently has confused the furor of combat — in which racial hatred often becomes a multiplier of emotion for the soldier in extremis — with some sort of grand collective national racial policy that led to and guided our conduct.

An innately racist society could not have gone through the nightmare of Okinawa (nearly 50,000 Americans killed, wounded, or missing), and yet a mere few months later have in Tokyo, capital of the vanquished, a rather enlightened proconsul MacArthur, whose deference to Japanese religion, sensibilities, and tradition ensured a peaceful transition to a rather radical new independent and autonomous democratic culture.

5) Hanks quips, “Does that sound familiar, by any chance, to what’s going on today?” That is another unnecessary if asinine statement — if it refers to our struggle against radical Islam in the post 9/11 world. The U.S. has risked much to help Muslims in the Balkans and Somalia, freed Kuwait and Iraq in two wars against Saddam Hussein, liberated or helped to liberate Afghanistan both from the Russians and the Taliban, and has the most generous immigration policy toward Muslims of any country in the world, ensuring a degree of tolerance unimaginable to Muslims in, say, China or Russia. Hanks should compare the U.S. effort to foster democracy in Iraq with the Russian conduct in Chechnya to understand “what’s going on today.”

In short Hanks’s comments are as ahistorical as they are unhinged. One wonders — were they supposed to entice us into watching the upcoming HBO series on the Pacific theater? But if anyone is interested in the role of race on the battlefield, one could probably do far better in skipping Hanks, and reading instead E.B. Sledge’s brilliant memoir, With the Old Breed, which has a far more sophisticated analysis of race and combat on Peleliu and Okinawa, and was apparently (and I hope fairly ) drawn upon in the HBO series. (Sledge speaks of atrocities on both sides in the horrific close-quarter fighting on the islands, but he makes critical distinctions about accepted and non-accepted behaviors, the differences between Japanese and American attitudes, and in brilliant fashion appreciates the role of these campaigns in the larger war. One should memorize the last lines of his book.)

It would be easy to say that Hanks knows about as much about history as historians do about acting, but that would be too charitable. Anyone with a high school education, or an innate curiosity to read (and Hanks in the interview references works on the Pacific theater), can easily learn the truth on these broad subjects. In Hanks’ case, he is either ignorant and has done little real research, or in politically-correct fashion has taken a truth about combat in the Pacific (perceptions of cultural and racial difference often did intensify the savagery of combat) and turned it into The Truth about the origins and conduct of an entire war — apparently in smug expectation that such doctrinaire revisionism wins applause these days in the right places (though I doubt among the general public that he expects to watch the series.)

All in all, such moral equivalence (the Japanese and the U.S. were supposedly about the same in their hatreds) is quite sad, and yet another commentary on our postmodern society that is as ignorant about its own past as it is confused in its troubled present.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 15, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/256801

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 16, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
And it's all for your stinking condos that you want to be built.

Push the Palestinians back, Push the Palestinians back, way back. Kill the women, children Palestinians injure them as well , Kill the Palestinians, Kill the Palestinians , get more land, push then back way back.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Mar 16, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
Push the Palestinians back, Push the Palestinians back, way back. Kill the women, children Palestinians injure them as well , Kill the Palestinians, Kill the Palestinians , get more land, push then back way back.

How many Arab states TRULY support the Palestinians? Iran, Syria?

And taking more land? They (Israelis) were attacked from those lands and essentially said, "F*#k you, we'll take those lands now as a buffer zone and build a wall".

Eqypt ain't no good friend of their 'brothers', either. The Palestinians under Arafat, and now Hamas, are a bunch of trouble-making PITA's.

If the Palestinian people really wanted peace they would chill. Allow all religions to pray at the Temple Mount WITHOUT CONDITION!!! Who are the intolerant ones????

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=292711&D=2010-03-16&SO=&HC=1

Meh! No sympathy....

Hamas has to go. It's just an arm of Iran. Same with Hezbollah in Lebanon/Syria.

If they're not careful, they get a major ass-kicking. Israel can do it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 16, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
The Israelis seem to have bumbled into a fight that they can't win, one which clarifies the divergence between the US' interests, and those of a minority of Israelis. The Israeli interest has always been in actions that are inconsistent with its rhetoric, pandering to domestic extremists, and obfuscating the growing differences between its interests and those of the US. Looks like they've finally blown it. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/opinion/16iht-edcohen.html?hp
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 16, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
There will be no peace as long as this is acceptable children's fare.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2413.htm
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 17, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
More like "Give them a shekel, they'll take a cubit".

With 'allies' like Israel, who needs enemies?
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Mar 17, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
MH- "With 'allies' like Israel, who needs enemies?"

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse." Genesis 12:3
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 17, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
This isn't good.

http://debka.com/article/8656/
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Mar 17, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
TGT- "This isn't good."

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:" Psalm 122:6.
Binks

Social climber
Mar 22, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Dear God, please let the Jews and Arabs fight their own war and bomb each other if they want to. Please leave Americans and American money out of it. Please let the American public finally realize that 9/11 is all about some Israelis and some Arabs hating each other and attempting to spread it to America. It never had anything do with America, ever.
Binks

Social climber
Mar 22, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
The biggest theft ever from America all so the chosen ones can reclaim their empire from thousands of years ago. Megalomania!

You better pray Americans don't see it for what it is.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 24, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDGz2m8c-g4
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 25, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
Fatty, you're hysterical. In both senses of the word.
EdBannister

Mountain climber
CA
Mar 25, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
Fat,
Obama is an anti semite, how else could he go to an anti semitic "church" for 20 years?

He will do nothing for Israel, but he will talk to the Arabs, maybe even stupidly enough to expect compliance.

end all arguments about the two sides with this simple set of facts:
If the Arabs actually would lay down all arms, the result would be peace.
If Israel laid down it's arms, the result would be genocide.

case closed.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Mar 26, 2010 - 11:37am PT
Obama disses Netanyahu...in a pretty rude manner.

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=293311&D=2010-03-26&SO=&HC=2

demands settlement by Saturday?? WTF?

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=293304&D=2010-03-26&SO=&HC=2

more;
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/bam_triple_diplo_whammy_day_QF1zmGPlLy4ZwXZcoCFIEI

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7076431.ece
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 30, 2010 - 01:31am PT
Another take on this, from a columnist named Cohen.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/opinion/30iht-edcohen.html

Dog to tail: Stop wagging. You're not the boss of me, and you need me a lot more than I need you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
Muslims don't drink, but a large number smoke like a house on fire.

This is really going to piss 'em off.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/cigarettes-may-contain-pigs-blood/story-e6freuyi-1225847538778

Hundreds of thousands of nicotine deprived jihadis'.

There's a frightening thought!
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Mar 31, 2010 - 11:58am PT
President Obama has about eight weeks to get Iran to stop all development or Israel will strike. Fattrad, Oct 1, 09

Next prediction please?


TGT, "Arabs don't drink."

BWA HA HA HAhahaaaaaa!!!
I lived in Saudi Arabia for four years.
Drank with LOTS of Arabs.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 31, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
"Arabs don't drink."

Muslims, not Arabs.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Mar 31, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
Them too.......

I watched them bang their little heads on the floor at our school everyday, then went home and drank with them at night.

Priests don't have sex....get it?

Edit: Sorry for mis-quoting you. My bad.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 31, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
The point is that the over the top fundamentalist types that would freak out over microscopic amounts of pigs blood ARE the ones that don't drink, but still smoke like a burning tire.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Mar 31, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
Gotcha. Yes, I met a few of them too. Although there weren't nearly as many as there were guys who just wanted to be "normal" and have a life like the rest of us.


They are so much more like us than people realize.
Sure there are over the top zealots on our side, the Iranian side, Israel, etc...
But why can't the talking heads recognize that the vast majority of these populations want nothing to do with tearing the world apart?
Afghans and Pakistanis included.

There are as many FOOLS in this country as there are in theirs.
Greedy, money grabbing, us vs them, zealots grinding away, stirring the pot, waiting....nay, hoping for the next chance to crank up the war machines.

We can't see their faces because of the sh*t spewed by their government.
They can't see our faces because of the sh*t spewed by our government.....

survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Mar 31, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
Meanwhile, Obama is leading Israel and the US to war:

I won't be holding my breath.

Now the Arabs are upset that we are distancing ourselves from Israel?

What ever shall we do?

Just can't win with those pesky Arabs can we?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Mar 31, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
Idiots. When will the Saudis come into the 21st Century like America is and execute people for being mentally handicapped?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Mar 31, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=134109

In this recent attack, a Rawalpindi Muslim mob, including some Pakistani police officers, tried to force Arshed Masih to renounce his Christian faith and convert to Islam. Masih refused their demand and was burned to death.

Reports also show that one of three Muslim policemen watching the incident raped Masih's wife while Masih's body burned. The policeman sexually assaulted Masih's wife Martha after she refused to convert to Islam.

f*#king savages....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 31, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
The longer this goes on, the more apparent it will be that the national interests of the US and of Israel are slowly but steadily diverging. Israeli behaviour increasingly indicates that it can't be trusted, and it is losing credibility. And I suspect that the Israelis (and others) have seriously underestimated Obama's leadership and determination.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Mar 31, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
Ohhh GOODY!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 31, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
Iran may, fairly soon, have the capability of manufacturing enough enriched uranium to make an atomic bomb. It may take them several years to actually produce enough. They also have all the other technical challenges to deal with, in terms of design, triggers, testing, and a delivery system. Their research and production facilities are dispersed and hardened enough that it would be quite difficult, if possible, to destroy them with conventional weapons. They have some allies.

All of which suggests that in five to ten years Iran will have a working weapon. It won't have the means to reliably deliver it, dare not allow other states let alone terrorists to have it, and knows the price for even attempting to use it (or letting others do so) would be overwhelming retaliation. It may also trigger an arms race in the gulf, in which one or more other countries obtain such weapons.

It would certainly destabilize the world, and mid-east, but any real threat to Israel (or the USA) is trivial. At this point it's a management issue - make sure that Iran is really aware of what it's getting into, sanctions to slow what they're doing, possibly even limited military action for that purpose.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 31, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
This should have got the mad mullahs attention!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/31/AR2010033101877.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Apr 1, 2010 - 11:04am PT
Uh oh, this guy's days are prolly numbered...

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=293736&D=2010-04-01&SO=&HC=2

In an interview last month on Al-Arabiya TV, former Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi said that Arab individualism has been erased, rendering the Arab "incapable of independent thinking," and that what prevails is "the spirit of the herd that cannot free itself from the captivity of the prevailing culture."

In the interview, which aired on February 26, 2010, Al-Buleihi sang the praises of Western civilization, saying that notions such as human rights are not "an accumulated achievement, in which all societies played a role, but an achievement of the West." Arab societies "should benefit from this rich experience," rather than remaining "a burden on the West."

"Tyranny is a tremendous obstacle, which makes any progress impossible," said Al-Buleihi. On the situation in post-Saddam Iraq, he said: "Iraq has not been permitted to achieve stability. The whole world has intervened in its affairs." He viewed Western intervention in Iraq as a positive thing, comparing the situation to that of Japan after World War II.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Apr 1, 2010 - 11:29am PT
former Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi said that Arab individualism has been erased, rendering the Arab "incapable of independent thinking," and that what prevails is "the spirit of the herd that cannot free itself from the captivity of the prevailing culture."

True for a few, but definitely NOT TRUE for Arabs as a whole.

Remember, I lived there for four years. There are LOTS of free thinking Arabs, who are afraid to speak out because of the harshness of the punishments. I heard this from practically every member of the Arab militaries who I spoke to in private, but aren't yet ready to speak very openly in a group.

There are too many Arabs doing military training in the west, schooling, vacationing, seeing the wider world, for this thinking to last forever. It is gradually escaping the grasp of the fundamentalists.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 1, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
TE Lawrence's observation on the Saudi Wahabists still seems to hold.

It was a natural phenomenon, this periodic rise at intervals of little more than a century, of ascetic creeds in central Asia. Always the voteries found their neighbors beliefs cluttered with inessential things, which became impious in the hot imagination of their preachers. Again and again, they had arisen, had taken possession, soul and body, of the tribes…the new creeds flowed like the tides or the changing seasons, each movement with the seeds of early death it its excess of rightness.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100401/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_witchcraft
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 2, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
Fatty, perhaps you should give it a rest today, on a day that's holy to at least two of the three Mosaic faiths, and symbolizes something very different from your nihilistic, zero-sum, violent world view.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Apr 2, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
Palestinian cowardice on the battlefield:

This is from the guy that wants only the best peaceful outcome for all parties?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 3, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
Anders that was beautiful.


Bruce good juxtaposition.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 3, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
Well, there are the Christian holy days, but let's not forget the Jewish ones. Isn't it called Passover, a holy day shared by Judaism and Christianism, and for all I know Islam - which pays some heed to the beliefs and observances of the other two faiths?

Anyway, despite how keen the old testament is on smiting, maiming and other atrocitires, maybe a good idea to pass over (so to speak) talk about such things for a few days.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 3, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Jeff,

With answers like that, from you a jew, it is no wonder jews have been persecuted over the millennia.
Have some respect, man.
Talking smack about a religion and one of its more sacred days is way un-cool.
Does no one any good.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Apr 6, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
So the lesson is that rape is ok if the victim is then further victimized by their own culture?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 6, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
pictures of a true climbing clash here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=867676&tn=0&mr=0
_**_*_*_**_*_*_**_*___*


I can't believe I got on the front page of this thread and wasted my post. Damn.

fattrad said on - Oct 1, 2009 - 09:35am PT
Here is a nicely written article about Iran's true intentions:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574442561260582286.html

President Obama has about eight weeks to get Iran to stop all development or Israel will strike.

opps, missed that prediction !
Binks

Social climber
Apr 6, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
The clash of civilizations has been canceled. It was a socialist entitlement program we can no longer afford. The government encourages private investors to take up the cause of a sequel if they find such a proposition in their interests, but no further tax money will be allocated to future programming of this nature.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 7, 2010 - 06:45am PT
barry decides "man-caused disasters" to be unsuitable (sorry Deepak) for the WAR on TERROR; new strategy involves "countering violent extremism" or CVE if you're really hip:

“The primary goal of countering violent extremism is to stop those most at risk of radicalization from becoming terrorists. Its tools are noncoercive and include social programs, counter-ideology initiatives, and working with civil society to delegitimize the Al Qaeda narrative and, where possible, provide positive alternative narratives.” He added, “We are working hard to develop a variety of CVE programs.”


well, if there's one thing barry knows about, it's "social programs"; not that any of them have ever worked, but who better to lead the way than our admittedly failed community-organizer-in-chief? i am curious to know who fits barry's idea of "civil society"...i know it's not the tea partiers because they're all racists and haters; i bet barry means his friends from chicago

anyway, i'm especially intrigued by the "counter-ideology initiatives" and "positive alternative narratives"...i mean, once you gather these "at risk" homicide bombers who dream of 72 virgins awaiting them in the afterlife, what exactly can you say to pursuade them that maybe murdering infidel babies and women and senior citizens isn't conducive to "civil society"?

wait, as i recall, there is this story about a guy who tried to pursuade everyone to love each other and treat others the way we want to be treated and to help the poor and sick and to forgive people who hurt us and...oh, wait, we nailed that guy to a cross...and, i think i heard recently that such talk would be "imposing" our ideas on others, which we all know is the greatest evil and probably qualifies as torture under barry's doj so it doesn't fit the goal of "non-coercive" methods
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 7, 2010 - 11:40am PT
bookworm,

You must work for Fox news.
Got the taking points down pat.
Even the vernacular down to a "T".
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 7, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
Israel will protect us as long as the US keeps subsidizing her....

By the way, can't Israel stand on her own?

No.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 7, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
We're talking about Israel's existence here, Jeff.

Without the 4 billion Israel would not exist. Period.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 7, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
Jeff,

Israel, without an infusion of 4Bill a year, would not survive much after she blew her wad in self defense.
Face it jeff. Israel on her own would be a non-starter.
Without Uncle Sam she is no better or worse than the nations around her.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 8, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
Nothing like holding on to traditions that are thousands of years old, the goal of fundamentalist Judaism, keep women as second class citizens.....sounds familiar......

Under Israel's Divorce Laws, Men Get The Final Word

.....even though life expectancies are much shorter when you get scammed.

Six Israelis Suspected In Organ Trafficking Ring

Jeff,

Things will get better if people begin to realize that fundamentalism in all it's forms is not all that it is cracked up to be, even if the epiphany comes one person at a time.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 8, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
$40 a barrel for oil?

What comic book were you reading for this one? Add an additional 0 to that 40 when Israel attacks Iran, could be $700 a barrel.

And you manage other clients’ monies accounts. Man! Good thing I do not ask for your financial advice.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 8, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
Fattrad

Now I get it. Has nothing to do with Iran having nukes.

How much stock do you have with Halliburton.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 8, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
How many of those positions are code for doggy?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 8, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
Jeff,

Bibi is probably trying to avoid personal public embarasement.

[url="http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=172707"]Netanyahu cancels trip to DC Nuclear Security Summit

The move came amid US warnings that Turkey and Egypt plan to lead a motion demanding that Israel open its nuclear facilities for international inspection[/url].

And that is from the Jpost!

With neighbors all around expressing concern regarding Israels Nuclear Arsenal there is no way he'd face those issues in-person.
He'd be in a position of total exposed weakness.
If Turkey and Egypt truly keep pressing the issue Bibi could be in for one wild ride.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 9, 2010 - 11:36am PT
Jeff,

And that right there is the problem.
The government of Israel does not want to join the rest of the world and "play by the rules".
Yet the government of Israel want every rule to be applied to everyone else.

Which is the antithesis of a democracy.
Special rules for one segment of society.

You do believe and favor democracy, don't you Jeff?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 9, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
Jeff,

Having ALL nations play by a set of rules is ultimately in the US's best interest.
And having the US uphold "the rules" that it can across the board, of friend and foe alike will make "us", the US, stronger and keep us #1.
Otherwise you have constantly varying levels of anarchy, worse than we have right now, all over the world. Nations picking and choosing which rules they want to play by at a given point in time to "help" their short term situation ( Israel is a contemporary example of this ). Which may help your stock portfolio of military stocks, but it does not make US or anyone else safer.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 9, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
Jeff,

Glad I could be of service.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 9, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
Peddler of Deception [Fattrad]

Just had a thought that you had Halliburton’s but Conoco Phillips as well? Egypt oil too.

You are a “peddler” of war but not a “whore” [Their different], one hides by using deception and the other doesn’t. I know you well.

Guess you make a penny here and maybe loose a penny there. In the long or short run you will see and get your profits.

US Forces serving in the Middle East over US interests and your interests [investments]: Anyone that comes in that category: Men/women of Special Forces, Army, Marines, National Guard………………….

A leg here and a leg blown over there, a head there and a head blown off here, half of a face here and half of no face there. Somebody here and nobody now, well there was hard to just find the pieces of him/her. Someone burned a little here, someone burned a lot there.

I buy gasoline, look in the mirror as I drive off, feel guilty but it goes away and I realize that I have contributed in someone making an IED [improvised explosive device] from the gas that I just bought and does the above to our fellow friends. Many come back in body bags while others with their legs, arms missing, Faces and bodies burnt.

Taking a guess you don’t give a sh#t. Assassinations, torture, corruption, rape. Penny here and a penny there.

Word of advice when the next time you say “Just made a killing in the stock market today” keep it to yourself.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 13, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
Sucks to be Israeli.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 13, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
Jeff,

This is getting cross-posted from the "God is a Fag and he hates Westburo Babtist Church." thread, because it goes right to the heart of your "Clash" theory........

"This pastor/congregation is spewing hate, not love, under the guise of Christianity/scripture."

This got me thinking ( ouch ).

What I'm finding interesting is that the group being spoken of here is being "separated" from the rest of christianity by the participants of this discussion.
What is also interesting is that this same scenario is playing out within the Islamic faith, radical right wing factions preaching and carrying out hate under the guise of Islam/scripture, but when discussion ensues more often than not the "separation" from the rest of Islam does not occur.
I can understand this, fearing what is not commonplace or "known", but it just seems a little intellectually disingenuous.

......intellectually disingenuous, Jeff.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 14, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
jeff,

You just proved my point, and made a bit of a leap forward by stating that "There are millions of wonderful Muslims around the world" which means not all followers of Islam are "evil".
And you are beginning to come around and TRULY realize that not all followers of Islam are evil.
Separating the evil from the good in your mind may be hard but you can do it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 14, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
Fatty

Use www.tinyurl.com

Peace

Karl
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 16, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
Fattrad

Ehud Yaari

Google and read his perspective on FA [Foreign Affairs] You can download audio as well.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com
if you get to main page hit "discussions" should come up. if not google will work
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 16, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
Yah Fat Bro

You go to www.tinyurl.com and plug in

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100414/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_us_iran;_ylt=AvhufhKLe7A2hwsfkneoM8m9IxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ2NmQyYjVoBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNDE0L3VzX3VzX2lyYW4EY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdXNvZmZpY2lhbHNp

and you get

http://tinyurl.com/y2xdakh

That way you don't make the margin's of the forum...er.....fat

Peace

Karl

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 20, 2010 - 12:57am PT
Israel observes the somewhat troubled 62nd anniversary of its founding:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/world/middleeast/20israel.html?ref=world
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 20, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
Even Marco Polo ran into the "clash"

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim042010.html
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 20, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
"Hanson has argued that the US should take a much more confrontational stance towards Iran, advocating unilateral acts of war against that country. On the Hugh Hewitt show in August 2007, Hanson stated: "We really need to start doing some things beyond talking, and if that is going into Iranian airspace, or buzzing Iranians, or even starting to forget where the border is and taking out some of these training camps, we need to do that and send a message, because they’re a paper tiger. They really are."

Seems Mr. Hanson has has allot in-common with Al-Qaeda.....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 20, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
To put that in context that was at the height of the Iranian incursions into Iraq. Iranian EFPs were killing dozens of Americans and Iraqis. There were a considerable number of Iranian agents killed and captured during that time frame.

Your comparison to AQ is frankly idiotic and you didn't even check to see who wrote the article, (Raymond Ibrahim).

Go see what other quotes you can pull out of context.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Apr 23, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
South Park payback is a beeotch!!!

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=295233&D=2010-04-23&SO=&HC=2

bwahaahaahah!
ahad aham

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/8631860.stm
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
So, did you hear about the Egyptians gassing some Palestinians in a border tunnel??
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=295593&D=2010-04-28&SO=&HC=1
Hardcore! Where's the Int'l outrage!!!

(oh, wait, the Jews didn't do it....)
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
Bluering,

I find it interesting that you are starting to believe the Palestinians....

Egypt denies gassing Gaza tunnels
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 4, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
Fattrad.

"Thought I would start a new thread as military action against Iran is imminent. Let's see if President Obama has any courage and participates against the rogue nation. Look for Hezbollah to begin an offensive against Israel first as a distraction."

Seems you have gone off track on your clash. You have too many going in every direction and since you are off the subject I will do the same and ask you this:

“BP said Monday it would compensate people for "legitimate and objectively verifiable" claims from the explosion and spill, but President Barack Obama and others pressed the company to explain exactly what that means”

Since you have RIG stocks ask your buddy Cheney exactly what does it mean
and tell us? Please, enlighten us on the subject.

And as an additional note:

Who's to blame for the oil spill? Dick Cheney
BY ALEX PAREENE


The Gulf of Mexico oil spill could end up being the worst American man-made environmental catastrophe of this generation. With the oil still spilling and investigations into the causes yet to come, it's too early to neatly assign blame to any one person. But for now, let's hold Dick Cheney personally responsible for the whole thing.

Here's the evidence: The Wall Street Journal reports that the oil well didn't have a remote-control shut-off switch. The reason it didn't have a thing that it seems every single offshore drilling rig should have?

According to environmental lawyer Mike Papantonio, it's because Dick Cheney's energy task force decided that the $500,000 switches were too expensive, and they didn't want to make BP buy any.

Is that not enough reason to blame the former Dark Lord of the Naval Observatory? Guess what: Halliburton is involved, too! The Los Angeles Times reports that BP contracted Dick Cheney's old company to cement the deepwater drill hole. Cementing the hole was, according to the U.S. Minerals Management Service, "the single most-important factor in 18 of 39 well blowouts in the Gulf of Mexico over a 14-year period." And Hallburton is already under investigation for faulty cementing in an Australian well last year.

The spill will very likely destroy the fragile economies of at least five states and it could even plunge the nation back into a recession. So thanks, Dick. Nice work.

Source: www.salon.com Monday 03 April 2010

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 4, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
Obama Renews Syria Sanctions
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/world/middleeast/04syria.html?scp=1&sq=obama%20syria&st=cse
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 6, 2010 - 10:49am PT
a perfect example of why we're losing this clash:

http://livefeed.hollywoodreporter.com/2010/05/comedy-central-developing-jesus-christ-cartoon-series.html


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 6, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
Fattrad,

Cheney is looking for a place to hide: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, any truth to that?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 6, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
Fattrad,

Sure he is not there to pick up a check. Interesting group of fellows that showed up in the last couple of days. Wondering what Hillary and her crew are thinking?

Going to be interesting now. Rogue CIA forming in the mist?

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 10, 2010 - 10:31am PT
from today's wapo:

John O. Brennan, the top counterterrorism adviser at the White House, said the administration is “taking very seriously” the threat posed by the Tehrik-e-Taliban, or TTP, calling it a “very determined enemy.” But Brennan suggested the many errors in the execution of the Times Square plot on May 1 also illustrate that the administration’s existing counterterrorism strategy — which hinges on striking targets abroad using Predator drone aircraft — is working.

“Because of our success in degrading the capabilities of these terrorist groups overseas, preventing them from carrying out these attacks, they are now relegated to trying to do these unsophisticated attacks, showing that they have inept capabilities in training,” Brennan said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

so barry's system "works" because some jihadis are "unsophisticated"? not so unsophisticated that they couldn't get on a plane with their panties stuffed with explosives or blog on jihadi websites and travel all the way to pah-kee-stahn for five months and return flush with cash and plant a car bomb in the middle of times square and buy a one-way ticket to the middle east and board the getaway plane, but still "unsophisticated" nonetheless


by the way:

bush--ONE attack in eight years

barry--FOUR attacks in 16 months

but whose counting?
Yvergenhauf

Trad climber
UT
May 10, 2010 - 10:57am PT
bush- one attack?
Sept 2001 Twin Towers, Pentagon…
September 2001 Anthrax attacks
December 2001 shoe bomb plot
May 2002 injures 6 by placing pipebombs in mailboxes in the Midwest. Motivation to protest government control over daily lives and the illegality of marijuana.

July 4 2002 An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport killing two Israelis before being killed himself.
October 2002 John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo conduct the Beltway Sniper Attacks, killing ten people in various locations throughout the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area from October 2 until they are arrested on October 24.
October 2005 Joel Henry Hinrichs III detonated a bomb near the packed football stadium at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, Oklahoma killing himself in the process.
March 2006 Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-born graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, drives an SUV onto a crowded part of campus, injuring nine.
August 2006 An Afghani Muslim hit 19 pedestrians, killing one, with his SUV in the San Francisco Bay area


One attack? really?
Yvergenhauf

Trad climber
UT
May 10, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
Fatrad,
I get the feeling you'll be finding personal pleasure in a failed attempt at mid-east peace talks. Interesting statement about your character if this is indeed the case.
Chances are not in favor of success in this difficult situation. However, if humans gave up trying a thing because others thought it might fail, or because a thing is difficult, then we would accomplish little. I can imagine someone saying about Lynn Hill's attempt to free the nose something like-
"Well, 'Lynn Hill' has started down the path that 'so many others' failed at, 'she' likely won't fare any better:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/nosehill.htm
I was wishing her success in her attempt at what some thought to be impossible. Likewise I am wishing President Obama success in mid-east peace talks.
I'm sure there are plenty of extremists around the globe who hope he fails. I am surprised how many of those cheering for failure are here in the U.S.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
Are Netanyahm and his Likud party in the drink, Fatty? Maybe Obama has some balls left?

Settlements frozen for the next two years. But will see it to believe it, can’t trust those right wing x.

Peace process or proximity [well indirect peace talks] now on the way with PLO and Fatah and all parties. Problem will be Israel as usual. Last week’s meeting in Riyadh must had something to do if it.

Still trying to figure out why Cheney was there? Sure it must have something to do with torture, since he is good at that and oil spills.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 12, 2010 - 09:15am PT
In Your Face
French attempts to outlaw the burqa strike a blow for the rights of women.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, May 10, 2010, at 11:16 AM ET
------------------------------------------------------------------------


The French legislators who seek to repudiate the wearing of the veil or the burqa—whether the garment covers "only" the face or the entire female body—are often described as seeking to impose a "ban." To the contrary, they are attempting to lift a ban: a ban on the right of women to choose their own dress, a ban on the right of women to disagree with male and clerical authority, and a ban on the right of all citizens to look one another in the face. The proposed law is in the best traditions of the French republic, which declares all citizens equal before the law and—no less important—equal in the face of one another.

On the door of my bank in Washington, D.C., is a printed notice politely requesting me to remove any form of facial concealment before I enter the premises. The notice doesn't bore me or weary me by explaining its reasoning: A person barging through those doors with any sort of mask would incur the right and proper presumption of guilt. This presumption should operate in the rest of society. I would indignantly refuse to have any dealings with a nurse or doctor or teacher who hid his or her face, let alone a tax inspector or customs official. Where would we be without sayings like "What have you got to hide?" or "You dare not show your face"?

Ah, but the particular and special demand to consider the veil and the burqa as an exemption applies only to women. And it also applies only to religious practice (and, unless we foolishly pretend otherwise, only to one religious practice). This at once tells you all you need to know: Society is being asked to abandon an immemorial tradition of equality and openness in order to gratify one faith, one faith that has a very questionable record in respect of females.

Let me ask a simple question to the pseudoliberals who take a soft line on the veil and the burqa. What about the Ku Klux Klan? Notorious for its hooded style and its reactionary history, this gang is and always was dedicated to upholding Protestant and Anglo-Saxon purity. I do not deny the right of the KKK to take this faith-based view, which is protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I might even go so far as to say that, at a rally protected by police, they could lawfully hide their nasty faces. But I am not going to have a hooded man or woman teach my children, or push their way into the bank ahead of me, or drive my taxi or bus, and there will never be a law that says I have to.

There are lesser objections to the covered face or the all-covering cloak. The latter has often been used by male criminals—not just religious terrorists but common thugs—to conceal themselves and make an escape. It has also been used to conceal horrible injuries inflicted on abused females. It is incompatible—because of its effect on peripheral vision—with activities such as driving a car or negotiating traffic. This removes it from the sphere of private decision-making and makes it a danger to others, as well as an offense to the ordinary democratic civility that depends on phrases like "Nice to see you."

It might be objected that in some Muslim societies women are not allowed to drive in the first place. But that would absolutely emphasize my second point. All the above criticisms would be valid if Muslim women were as passionately committed to wearing a burqa as a male Klansman is committed to donning a pointy-headed white shroud. But, in fact, we have no assurance that Muslim women put on the burqa or don the veil as a matter of their own choice. A huge amount of evidence goes the other way. Mothers, wives, and daughters have been threatened with acid in the face, or honor-killing, or vicious beating, if they do not adopt the humiliating outer clothing that is mandated by their menfolk. This is why, in many Muslim societies, such as Tunisia and Turkey, the shrouded look is illegal in government buildings, schools, and universities. Why should Europeans and Americans, seeking perhaps to accommodate Muslim immigrants, adopt the standard only of the most backward and primitive Muslim states? The burqa and the veil, surely, are the most aggressive sign of a refusal to integrate or accommodate. Even in Iran there is only a requirement for the covering of hair, and I defy anybody to find any authority in the Quran for the concealment of the face.

Not that it would matter in the least if the Quran said otherwise. Religion is the worst possible excuse for any exception to the common law. Mormons may not have polygamous marriage, female circumcision is a federal crime in this country, and in some states Christian Scientists face prosecution if they neglect their children by denying them medical care. Do we dare lecture the French for declaring simply that all citizens and residents, whatever their confessional allegiance, must be able to recognize one another in the clearest sense of that universal term?

So it's really quite simple. My right to see your face is the beginning of it, as is your right to see mine. Next but not least comes the right of women to show their faces, which easily trumps the right of their male relatives or their male imams to decide otherwise. The law must be decisively on the side of transparency. The French are striking a blow not just for liberty and equality and fraternity, but for sorority too.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
May 15, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
British MP stabbed in the gut twice with kitchen knife by a 'veiled South Asian woman.

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=296823&D=2010-05-15&SO=&HC=1
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 15, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
ok, fatty, i admit we've lost...when a swedish cartoonist displays more courage than the entire entire executive branch (and the controlling party of the legislative branch) of the united states, we're doomed...at least until 2010

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gC4S-JdIXbvWajcL6tGMcouYStgg

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/comic-riffs/2010/05/muhammad_cartoonist_lars_vilks.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IHnWY-i6Y
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 19, 2010 - 11:52am PT
after all, barry's soft power approach has worked so effectively thus far:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100519/pl_nm/us_lebanon_usa_hezbollah


"hezbollah moderates"? i'd laugh at the oxymoron if it weren't so scary
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 19, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
well, fattrad, you give barry more credit than i do...and, we both know where the road of good intentions leads
ahad aham

Trad climber
May 19, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/the-case-for-zionism.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
May 26, 2010 - 11:32am PT
Looks like the Saudi chix aren't gonna take it anymore!!!!

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=297570&D=2010-05-26&SO=&HC=3

Not without some bruises and bloody lip anyway.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 27, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
according to barry's top security guy:

"The President’s strategy is absolutely clear about the threat we face. Our enemy is not “terrorism” because terrorism is but a tactic. Our enemy is not “terror” because terror is a state of mind and as Americans we refuse to live in fear. Nor do we describe our enemy as “jihadists” or “Islamists” because jihad is a holy struggle, a legitimate tenant [sic] of Islam, meaning to purify oneself, and there is nothing holy or legitimate or Islamic about murdering innocent men, women and children.

Indeed, characterizing our adversaries this way would actually be counterproductive. It would play into the false perception that they are religious leaders defending a holy cause, when in fact they are nothing more than murderers, including of thousands upon thousands of Muslims. This is why Muslim leaders around the world have spoken out—forcefully, and often at great risk to their own lives—to reject al Qaeda and violent extremism. And frankly, their condemnations often do not get the recognition they deserve.

Moreover, describing our enemy in religious terms would lend credence to the lie—propagated by al Qaeda and its affiliates to justify terrorism—that the United States is somehow at war against Islam. The reality, of course, is that we never have been and will never be at war with Islam. After all, Islam, like so many faiths, is part of America."


brilliant...even though the people trying to kill us claim they're pursuing "jihad", we shouldn't describe them as jihadists because...um ... well...that might hurt their feelings
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
May 31, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
Jeff,

That was the best post you have ever made.
Good on ya.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
May 31, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
From what I understand, when Israeli Naval forces boarded the ship, the activists grabbed an Israeli gun and stabbed naval commandos with knives.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 31, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
Oh and they can't let international relief goods like food and medicine in even when it comes overland thru Egypt from an Americam Christian Peace Organization.

Face it Fatty, Israel has been stealing, annexing and occuping land all along. And they don't give it back. And be honest, the radical fundimentalists in power in Israel have no intention of playing fair or decently to the Palestinians. Their intent in Gaza is to squeeze the necks of the Palestinians nearly to death in hopes they will leave their land. Fat chance Fats. Israel is displaying it's blood thirsty ways for all the world to see and condemn.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 31, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
Let the juggernaut of AIPAC lies commence. Pansys!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 31, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Israel really can't let aid in that is from a group that calls for its destruction, really a problem.
An unprovoked attack on foreign-registered vessels in international waters, as appears to have been the case, is an act of piracy. Even if 'provoked' by a few poorly-armed idiots, the response was disproportionate. And it's particularly dumb in that the convoy was in effect sponsored by Turkey, one of Israel's few (lukewarm) friends in the region. Israel could easily have waited until the boats were in domestic waters, or simply have demanded to inspect the cargoes before allowing them to be landed.

A major blunder by extremists in the Israeli government and military. No wonder its prime minister had to rush home from Canada to deal with the fallout.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 31, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Fatty

Looks like bye, bye so long, take it easy, write, send a postcard, for Netanhayu.

You now don't have any friends now: Jordan, Egypt and Turkey.

Who has best hand now.
ahad aham

Trad climber
May 31, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
it's well past time that the United States wakes up to what the rest of the world knows..that this rogue Zionist State is a strategic liability completely at odds with international law and human rights. By funding them we are accomplises to their crimes. Write your Israeli puppet congressman and tell he or she so.

http://witnessgaza.com/

http://mondoweiss.net/

http://www.wearewideawake.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1740&Itemid=233

will obama have the sac to throw the bums out?...i doubt it. and we know where congress stands.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Obama at least manned up on the NPT - something no previous president would have done. But if he can't or won't really go full-guns on the republicans I suspect he'll never do more then attempt to talk the Israelis into complying with UN resolutions and that's the very definition of pissing into the wind.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
May 31, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
Here ya go, Ricky;

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-clash-20100601,0,7304478.story
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 31, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
If this had been a case of Somali pirates boarding this (or any) ship, and the crew and passengers fought back, you all would have been cheering them on! And rightly so. As it is a few of you are going to endlessly regurgitate the Zionist mantra myth, "we have a right to defend ourselves".



As it is I think it is too bad that a lot more cowardly IDF terrorists weren't offed. This was an act of piracy in international waters. Gather the terrorists up and hang them in accordance with Maritime law! Start with NuttyYahoo.






Oh and Israel, regardless of all your arrogance I would highly suggest yoou don't tangle with Turkey. They are not Egypt. They have a very effective military. They are not America. They are not beholden to the deep pocket corruption of AIPAC. They will fight back with out so much as a second thought. And they are not the hapless and all but defenceless Palestinians. They can and would kick the living sh#t out of Israel.




The State of Israel has squandered the World's sympathy and have been revelled as the threat to peace they are. Good work for cowardly terrorists!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 31, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
They (Turkey) can and would kick the living sh#t out of Israel.
Except that Turkey is a member of NATO, and wants to join the EU. And that Israel has between 50 and 200 nuclear weapons, and the means to reliably deliver them, and Turkey doesn't.

That said, it does seem even clumsier than usual for Israel to attack boats with apparent ties to the Turkish government. One of the few reasonably democratic, reasonably sane, countries in the region, and something of a friend.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 10:30am PT
One of the peace activists/humanitareans that were subjected to this Israeli act of piracy was a Jewish Holocaust survivor. The one person there who actually experienced and survived the holocaust has opted to support the plight of the Palestinians. How ironic. At risk to their own life from their own people they still decided on the greater right. Including associating with groups Israel has deemed terrorist organizations. While Israel continues to engage in terrorism and piracy in international waters. Keep up the good work you limp larnos your grand efforts will insure that the State of Israel is relegated to the ash heap of history.





bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 1, 2010 - 11:08am PT
"The one person there who actually experienced and survived the holocaust has opted to support the plight of the Palestinians."


so, philo, should we "opt to support" slavery just because some slave owners in america were black?

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm


and those racist, hating, murdering israeli soldiers were armed...



with paintball guns?


i trust next time the idf won't be so reluctant to use force to secure their blockade...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 1, 2010 - 11:39am PT
It takes two to tango. This is exactly what Hamas wanted and
I can't believe the Israelis were so stupid as to fall for it.
Both sides seem driven to waltz each other over the edge.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 1, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
as i said:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?ID=177134


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 1, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
June 1, 2010 12:00 P.M.
An Islam of Their Very Own

Obama’s counterterrorism chief trivializes jihad.



Well, at least he had it half right. For John Brennan, President Obama’s al-Quds lovin’ counterterrorism guru, that’s a significant improvement.

Last week, Brennan interrupted his search for the “moderate elements” of Hezbollah, and from his finger-wagging at Americans for their “ignorant feelings” about Muslim-man-caused disasters, to offer some signature insights about Islam at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. In a pleasantly surprising start, he conceded that the United States has an “enemy,” which he further admitted was neither “terrorism”—a “tactic”—nor “terror” —“a state of mind.”

So far so good. For a guy who figures “20 percent isn’t that bad” a recidivism rate for released mass murderers, this was pretty good stuff.

Then he got to jihad.

Brennan admonished that we must not “describe our enemy as ‘jihadists.’” Why not? “Because jihad is a holy struggle, a legitimate tenet of Islam.” Right again. There is no gainsaying that jihad is deemed to be a divine injunction in Islam. If one regards all forms of Islam as “legitimate,” then jihad, too, must be legitimate. Yet “legitimate” is a slippery concept. It could mean that something is good. Or it could just mean that something is authentic — something that it really exists, for good or ill.

Islam falls into the latter category. It exists. In many of its iterations — not just al-Qaeda’s ideology but Islamist ideology, which is quite mainstream — Islam means the West existential harm. This is why we are supportive of reformist Muslims, however pessimistic some of us may be about their prospects. The point, though, is that Islam is not going away. It is part of the hand we are dealt, like it or not. We don’t need to trash-talk it gratuitously, but neither should we pretend that it is an asset on our security ledger. It’s not.

Alas, the Hope administration doesn’t see it that way. For Brennan, as for Obama, Islam is immovably in the first category: “legitimate” as in “good” — end of discussion. To sculpt this alternative reality, two things are required. First, we must ignore Islam’s many troublesome elements — e.g., its supremacism, inequality, intolerance, denial of freedom of conscience, endorsement of violence, etc. Second, to the extent that the resulting atrocities can’t be ignored, we must pretend that what ails the Islamic world is our fault, not Islam’s.

Thus we get the priceless Brennan on jihad. According our counterterrorism czar (or is it now counter-tactic czar?), the “holy struggle” is wholly anodyne. Jihad, he insists, merely “mean[s] to purify oneself or one’s community.” Therefore, there can be “nothing holy or legitimate or Islamic about murdering innocent men, women, and children.” If innocent men, women, and children are being killed, don’t blame jihad. There must be some other explanation: Israel, cartoons, Gitmo, South Park, teddy bears named Mohammed, dismay over the health-care bill — anything but jihad.

In his never-to-be-missed Saturday column, Mark Steyn observes the fictional scenes imprinted on euro currency, a perfect emblem for the pie-in-the-sky vision of a united Europe. It’s as if Hope could make Change if you just pretended hard enough: “If you invent a currency for a united Europe,” Mark writes of the EU fantasists, “a united Europe is sure to follow.” So, too, do Brennan, Obama, and the rest set about dreaming up an Islam of their very own. They are far from alone in this. For years, the project has consumed progressive solons in America and Europe — from Pres. George W. Bush’s “religion of peace” sermon, delivered while thousands of limbs were being removed from the rubble of the World Trade Center, to British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith’s Brennanesque insistence that terrorism had to be “un-Islamic activity” simply because it was terrorism.

Like Brennan, the Right Honorable Ms. Smith occupied a national-security position calling for clear-eyed realism, for counseling the government to deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it were. Instead, we get Judy Garland singing “Somewhere over the Rainbow,” except Garland at least knew she was dreaming.

While our top officials imagine an Islam that isn’t, jihad is something the rest of us needn’t imagine, because it is all too real. And it is simple. Jihad is, always and everywhere, the mission to implement, spread, or defend sharia, the Islamic legal code. It is not exclusively violent; an army doesn’t need to be violent if its enemies are willing to give ground. But jihad only “means to purify oneself or one’s community” in a very narrow sense. It is not the syrupy quest to become a better person but the command to become a better Muslim; it is not the smiley-face mission to “purify” one’s community of crime but the command to cleanse one’s community of non-Islamic influences.

The inextricable bond between jihad and sharia is also easily explained. In Muslim doctrine, sharia is deemed the necessary precondition for Islamicizing a society. Islam’s designs are hegemonic: Even in its less threatening iterations, it is taken as a given that believers must call all of humanity to the faith. What separates the true moderates from the faux moderates and the terrorists are the lengths to which one is willing to go in carrying out that injunction. That it is an injunction, however, is not open to debate.

Our political leaders can continue to trivialize jihad as if it were some benign struggle to brush after every meal. They can continue to ignore the core tenets that make sharia antithetical to a free, self-determining society. But they can’t do that and do the only job we need them to do: protect our lives and our liberties.

— Andrew C. McCarthy, a senior fellow at the National Review Institute, is the author, most recently, of The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Jun 1, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
Reilly - you nailed it!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 1, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
Fatty has the naive belief that the world revolves around Israel. Sad. The strategic interests of Israel and the US are increasingly divergent, and no doubt there are some in congress and the administration asking, in light of the recent attack: "With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?"

Turkey, like Israel, undoubtedly has a human rights record that could be improved. The main reasons it has not been admitted to the EU are Greek opposition (notwithstanding that Turkey helped finance the recent bailout of Greece), history, racism and religion.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 1, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
Did they expect to receive a nice welcome with flowers while rapping off the helicopter ?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Jun 1, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
MH,

Israel HAS nuclear weapons.
Be very afraid.

A nuclear free ME will only happen after Israel does the death-wad-blow.

No one wins.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 1, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
classic,
the 4th strongest army on the planet using paintball guns. one has to respect their marksmanship i mean to kill at least 9 with toys that's professionalism. and indeed they had to confiscate all journalistic documentation which of course would prove what? maybe rahm is back from the family trip to israel last week to coach the president on an appropriate response. traitors all.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 1, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
It's that Israel is at the center of the conflict between what is becoming a largely secular world and a religion/area/population that lacks modernity.
Not sure what you're referring to, in that Israeli politics and government is badly distorted by fundamentalist Jewish groups, whose beliefs and values are as peculiar if not medieval as those of fundamentalist "Christians" and Muslims.

Maybe they haven't read the Torah lately, the bit about David and Goliath. David being armed with a slingshot and all. Just like the people on the boat that was attacked.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 1, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
Good boy MH

Only way out is for Netanhayu to move to the center.

But again will never happen. I am sure Fatty will agree.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 1, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
There is an ongoing public debate in Canada, going back many years, on our health care system, its limitations, and how it might be reformed in light of an aging population and ever more expensive treatments and drugs. The discussion might sometimes be better informed, given that we after all have a system that works very well. Given the numbers of people involved, and the related resources and organization, it ain't perfect - anecdotal evidence has some use for showing that, anyway. Given that demand will always exceed supply, there'll always be a wait for non-priority treatments, and the wealthy will find ways to jump the queue. But at least we're having a reasonably honest debate about our system, focussing on both people and economics, in particular in terms of priorities and rationing mechanisms.

Notwithstanding the wreckers, who are usually motivated by their selfish economic interests, it is extremely unlikely that Canada (or Israel) will move away from a single payer system. We're horrified by the grotesque inequality and waste of the US 'system', which seems largely designed to pad the pockets of special interests.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
So a rumour is going around that a local Fundamentalist and radicalized synagogue is planning on attacking a non violent Palestinian Solidarity Peace March. Scuttlebutt is that they are gathering weapons. Now the Peace March will have lots of children and old folks in attendance. They are all afraid and not just a little intimidated. We just can't allow that threat to exist so close to home. So a gang of us "Christians" are dressing in commando black and storming the place with shot guns and 9 mms tonight. Maybe a few Molotov cocktails for insurance. We have a right to defend ourselves don't you know? Should we expect any resistance from inside? You know sticks and stones and water hoses and other deadly weapons. I hope not because that would justify deadly force and terror tactics and that can make such a mess.



I hope the sentient among you realize I am joking in the extreme to make the ludicrousness of pro zionist responses a little more obvious to the mouth breathers.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 1, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
Doesn't the Bush/theo-con doctrine say that pre-emptive action against terrorism is justified?

Not that international law necessarily agrees.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
Israeli Soldier Shoots American Art Student in Face
http://salem-news.com/articles/may312010/israel-girl-shot.php




Her name is Emily Henochowicz.
She is an AMERICAN and an art student at the prestigious Cooper Union, located in East Village, Manhattan.

I hope her parents are really pissed off and wealthy enough to make a BIG legal nightmare for NuttyYahoo.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
The Fat man and other cerebral-cortex refugees would try to convince everyone that the Arab world is stuck in some past century. Well wake up and smell the hypocrisy. Then face the fact that it is not Fundamentalist Muslims who are threatening a "Clash of Civilizations". It is FUNDAMENTALISM that is the real danger. Fundamentalism of all kinds including American and Israeli.







These folks seem so modern and tolerate.



http://www.haaretz.com/haaretz-authors-edition/the-colors-of-racism-1.293669

Published 00:44 02.06.10Latest update 00:44 02.06.10
The colors of racism
Even Iran is not as bad as Immanuel, where they make Jewish girls of differing ethnic stripe wear different colored uniforms.

By Sami Michael
This article is part of a special edition of Haaretz, to mark Israel's book week.


children in Immanuel.

Photo by: Moti Milrod
My nerves are tingling and my flesh is crawling as I write these lines. This is a small story about two girls attending the same school who became friends and who are now required, by racist order, to wear school uniforms of different colors.


They have been forbidden to come in contact with each other and in order to make the prohibition concrete, a fence covered with an opaque cloth has been stretched between them. They preserve their friendship by passing notes through a hole in the fence.

This story did not happen in the days of apartheid South Africa or in the dark times before the civil rights movement in the United States or in a ghetto in an insane Europe during World War II.

The two schoolgirls wearing uniforms of different colors are Jewish girls from the Israeli settlement of Immanuel in the West Bank, which is flourishing under the flag and armed protection of the Israel Defense Forces. The school also receives funding courtesy of the Israeli taxpayer.

The two schoolgirls' crime is their different ethnic origins. One is an Ashkenazi Jew, whose family's roots are in Europe, and her friend is a Mizrahi Jew, whose family comes from Middle Eastern and North African countries. Was it for this that the state of Israel forged its path through rivers of the blood of its sons and its enemies?

Even in the darkest days in Iraq, Egypt and Lebanon, they never separated Jews from Muslims and Christians in schools.

One of the initiators of the segregation in Immanuel commented: "This isn't ethnic separation, but rather religious." He was right, but only partially. Indeed, this separation is not ethnic but rather "racist," a word rarely used, even by those of courageous and honest determination.

The Supreme Court's justices, whom I see as the last bastion of democracy in Israel, used the term "discrimination."

To my regret, intellectuals whose voice resounds from time to time from here and abroad have sealed their lips. They and the vast majority of Israeli society used to think of "discrimination" as something unclean. What? Here? In our enlightened country?

Along came the righteous Supreme Court justices, headed by Edmond Levy and Hanan Melcer, who smashed the taboo and used the despised word "discrimination."

Let us imagine for a moment a school, say in Germany or Britain, which puts up a separation fence for "religious" reasons, as the Immanuel racists claimed, and compels the Jewish students to wear a uniform of a different color. What a ruckus we would be raising!

I have personally met the current head of the Jewish community in Tehran and I have conversed with many Iranian expatriates in Europe and the United States. I am also in touch with combative elements in Iran. I can attest that Jewish schoolchildren and students living in Iran today are not required to wear clothing of a different color.

How has it happened that rabbis, at least in Immanuel, are even more benighted than the ayatollahs we excoriate and abominate day and night? And why have the intellectuals here mostly disappeared?

I am glad the president has not been silent and has not shut his ears to this horror. In a meeting with young people at his official residence he said if he were their age he would go out and demonstrate against this injustice.

One can understand him. Age has its limitations. I have reached the age of 84 and now it seems to me that every single year weighs a ton. However, the color of the uniforms forced on the schoolgirls in Immanuel has also been forced on me and my children and my grandchildren, who are Ashkenazi and Mizrahi at the same time.

Let's call a spade a spade: The lords of Immanuel are racists who imperil the values of Judaism and democracy. Since my adolescence I have been fighting their sort no matter what their race, religion and heritage. This separation fence of defilement, which shady rabbis plot to plant in our souls, must be uprooted.

I will not demonstrate in Immanuel. Even though the name of the town means "God is with us," obviously he is no longer there. I will however, definitely demonstrate during the celebration of Hebrew Book Week, for a school is called "the house of the book" in Hebrew.

I will show up on my own with a modest placard at Rabin Square at the Kinneret Zmora-Bitan Publishers' booth on Wednesday, June 9, at 7:00 P.M. Every man, woman and teenager will be welcome to join me to extirpate the racist crime in Immanuel today - and should we remain silent, in all of Israel tomorrow.



The writer's latest novel "Aida" was published in Hebrew by Kinneret Zmora-Bitan. He is the president of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.








And don't forget that this is made possible by your American Tax Dollars. Woo Hoo! Party on Shlomo.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 1, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
well, philo is right about one thing...muslims are not living in some past century; i mean, youtube is only a decade old:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFnbNy6MMDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvE5K9W6UUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFz8DwvJP6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-MnAYiEWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEcaI7zQG3E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI2ivZA2-Z4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNE__TiMZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y



now the sad part about this (i mean, besides the obvious indoctrinating of children to truly hate jews and long for death in the name of allah) is that philo will ignore what the palestinians themselves proudly display on tv for the whole world to see and he'll probably drag out the tired "fundamentalism" meme and reference the inquisition (which actually did occur in a past century) and maybe throw in a tim mcveigh allusion and something about pedophile priests because he can't confront the plain truth (truth not according to me but entirely from the mouths of palestinian babies) that hamas (you know, those "freedom fighters" who rule gaza and call for the destruction of israel in their own charter, again, posted proudly on the web for all to see) daily launch unguided rockets into israeli territory every day, which inspired the israelis to set up the blockade and motivated them to board the boat so they could search it for weapons which is when they were attacked by knife and steel pipe bearing "peace activists" (again, as clearly shown on video posted on the web for all to see) who clearly were not intimidated by the paintball guns the israeli soldiers were carrying, you know, to avoid hurting the people who were attacking them

yep, i can see why people hate jews so much...i mean, which is more civilized and conducive to peace: a jihad-spewing mickey mouse/bugs bunny or bar rafaeli?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
Hey Sperm Burp (aka Bookworm), do you really swallow that sh#t?

Sh#t like all Jews are victims and all Palestinians are terrorists and Israel is under constant and imminent threat of destruction by the omnipotent Arab armies massed to drive them into the sea.


Google U.S.S. Liberty and then tell me how you would justify that act of war against America?

How do you justify the deliberate targeting of an American Peace Activist in the West Bank? Some big brave IDF soldier shot her directly in the face with a tear gas canister. Is it all okie dokie with you because starving and desperate Gazans fire ineffectual rockets into what is Palestinian Occupied Territory?


You are an IDIOT to assume I hate Jews. I certainly despise Zionism and will fight against it till my dying breath. But if you asked all my Jewish family, friends and clients about my opinion of Jews you would likely be surprised by their responses.

So why do you hate the most disenfranchised and oppressed people on Planet Earth?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
There you go again Fats, regurgitating the same old hackneyed zionist lying narrative.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
No, I assert it wasn't the great deal you claim it to have been. It was a sham being force fed to Arafat. He absolutely should have driven away.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 1, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
So Fats, how many innocent unarmed peace activists will the IDF murder on the open seas when the flotilla sponsored by Ireland arrives in the near future.

How good will it be to have a million or more armed and drunken Irishmen on your bad side?
Erin go braugh.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:09am PT
How about Emily Henochowicz Fats? Care to spin an AIPAC approved fantasy explanation.
An eye for an eye. Her lost one and Israel's blackened one. Seems almost fair.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:11am PT
Mystery solved: flotilla cargo contents revealed!

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/mystery-solved-flotilla-cargo-contents-revealed.html





How could they allow this dangerous cargo into the hands of desperate and starving people?
The Israelis are such humane and compassionate people they were only protecting the Gazan Palestinians from all those dangerous foreign foods and medicines. I bet the Gazans feel so much better knowing Israel has their back and is protecting them so well.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:12am PT
http://sn132w.snt132.mail.live.com/default.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0

On Monday, May 31, in an appalling and outrageous act, the Israeli military attacked the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, a civilian flotilla bringing humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza, in international waters, killing several civilians and wounding dozens of others.

Virtually the entire world has spoken out against Israel's attack and called for a lifting of Israel's siege of Gaza. The European Union called for "an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossings for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza." Greece, Egypt, Spain, Sweden and Denmark recalled their Ambassadors to Israel. Several other European countries, the Arab League, and the African Union condemned the attack.

http://www.aaper.org/site/lookup.asp?c=quIXL8MPJpE&b=6069609
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:25am PT
Mostly militarily impotent neighbors Jeff.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 2, 2010 - 07:19am PT
when peace activists go bad:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=2323


philo, it's not about what was on the boat...the israelis are not blockading food, medicine, etc,; they're blockading weapons and demand that all boats be searched for weapons...in fact, the israelis invited the flotilla to dock in one of their ports; the "peace activists" refused and tried to run the blockade


no, i don't believe all palestinians are terrorists (though i'll never forget the video of palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11), but i don't have sympathy when the "oppressed" elect a terrorist organization to rule their territory...strange how the palestinians in the west bank seem to be getting on quite rationally and peacefully with the israelis...and let's not forget the 20% of israel's citizens who are ARAB, most of whom identify themselves as PALESTINIANS and who vote their ARAB/MUSLIM representatives into the knesset and who often and often harshly criticize their government without repraisal either from the government or their fellow jewish citizens...just curious, philo, what do you think would happen if a jew living in gaza (i know, i know, but suspend disbelief for the analogy) openly criticized hamas? or what about a jew living in saudi arabia? or a jew living in iran? or a jew living in...oh, you get the point

no, i think israel is the best possible place for any arab/muslim to live (if they can't get a ride to america)
dirtbag

climber
Jun 2, 2010 - 07:25am PT
There is no clash of civilizations--that's clear by now. It's a neocon delusion.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 11:35am PT
Oh my where to start...
philo, it's not about what was on the boat...the israelis are not blockading food, medicine, etc,;

IOh yes they are. Why do you think there is a humanitarean crisis in Gaza?

they're blockading weapons and demand that all boats be searched for weapons...

The boats were thoroughly inspected before leaving port. No weapons. There were also inspected by the Israelis in the port os Ashod. No weapons. The IDF knew there were no weapons

in fact, the israelis invited the flotilla to dock in one of their ports; the "peace activists" refused and tried to run the blockade

It is well known that under normal conditions the relief aid would never make it to Gaza

no, i don't believe all palestinians are terrorists (though i'll never forget the video of palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11),

Well you should forget it because it never happened. Yes you saw a video showing Palestinian kids celebrating in the street, but it has been proven that it was stock footage from a political rally almost two years earlier. The candidate was throwing candy to the kids. Oh course they were cheering and playing, as a kid wouldn't you have. This was nothing more than a very clumsy attempt by the Israelis to lay blame for 911 on the Palestinians who had nothing to do with it.

but i don't have sympathy when the "oppressed" elect a terrorist organization to rule their territory

Strange how you can't recognize that the election of Hamas, an organization originally founded and funded by the Mossad as a counter force to Arafat's Fatah party, was the result of Israel forcing early elections on the Palestinians. If the Israelis would have waited the 18 months for the properly scheduled elections the results would have been different, But the Israeli treatment would be the same, brutal oppression.

...strange how the palestinians in the west bank seem to be getting on quite rationally and peacefully with the israelis

Do you suppose you could site a source for that nonsense statement. How do you come to the belief that things are so peachy keen in the West Bank? Because they are NOT! The beating and killing of innocent Palestinian citizens by illegal settlers is still happening every day. The steeling of land is happening every day. The building of more Jewish homes is happening everyday. If you foolishly believe that things are so great in Gaza why don't you email Emily Henochowicz and ask her how well she thinks things are going.


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
Well Fats, what does any of that have to do with the brutal oppression of the Palestinian?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
Israel is way to nice.

Stop the nonsense.



The nonsense that has to stop is the NON-sense that you cling to.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
"The Turkish Government as Global Arbiter of Ethnic Violence [Victor Davis Hanson]


The virulent worldwide reaction to Israeli’s handling of the Gaza flotilla has been quite instructive. The bankrupt Greeks, for example, are taking a holiday from railing at the Germans to demonstrate in solidarity with the Turkish-organized Gaza effort, which puts them on the same side as those whose government supports the occupation of much of Greek-speaking Cyprus and its divided capital.

No one in Europe worried much about the constant shower of missiles from Gaza in the past. No one in Europe said a word when North Korea torpedoed and slaughtered South Koreans on the high seas. No one objected when the Iranians hijacked a British ship and humiliated the hostages.

We ourselves seem to be getting a sort of novel pass for executing scores of suspected terrorists — and anyone in their vicinity — in our new, stepped-up Predator drone assassinations.

But the Western and Islamic worlds have a preexisting furor at the Jewish state that can be tapped at will by almost any pro-radical-Palestinian group clever enough to do proper P.R. after a desired asymmetrical confrontation. The fallout from Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount, the distortions around the 2002 terrorist storming of the Church of Nativity, the 2006 Lebanon war — over time, these incidents do their part, in weird fashion, to incur hatred for a liberal democracy while creating sympathy for a theocratic thugocracy like Hamas.

What explains this preexisting hatred, which ensures denunciation of Israel in the most rabid — or, to use the politically correct parlance, “disproportionate” — terms? It is not about “occupied land,” given the millions of square miles worldwide that are presently occupied, from Georgia to Cyprus to Tibet. It is not a divided capital — Nicosia is walled off. It is not an overreaction in the use of force per se — the Russians flattened Grozny and killed tens of thousands while the world snoozed. And it cannot be the scale of violence, given what we see hourly in Pakistan, Darfur, and the Congo. And, given the Armenian, Greek, and Kurdish histories (and reactions to them), the currently outraged Turkish government is surely not a credible referent on the topic of disproportionate violence.

Perhaps the outrage reflects simple realpolitik — 350 million Arab Muslims versus 7 million Israelis. Perhaps it is oil: half the world’s reserves versus Israel’s nada. Perhaps it is the fear of terror: Draw a cartoon or write a novel offending Islam, and you must go into hiding; defame Jews and earn accolades. Perhaps it is anti-Semitism, which is as fashionable on the academic Left as it used to be among the neanderthal Right.

Perhaps there is also a new sense that the United States at last has fallen into line with the Western consensus, and so is hardly likely to play the old lone-wolf supporter of Israel in the press or at the U.N.

At this point, it doesn’t much matter — as this latest hysterical reaction reminds us, much of the world not only sides with Israel’s enemies but sides with them to such a degree as to suggest that, in any existential moment to come, the world either will be indifferent or will be on the side of Israeli’s enemies.

Quite frightening, when you think of it."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
By all means Fats if you are ready to admit that you are wrong we are all ears.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 2, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
Well, Fatty, your blind belief that all problems can be solved by the application of grotesque, brute force doesn't exactly reveal you to be a paragon of wisdom and justice.

Edit: Not to mention the parallel, blind beliefs of the Israeli government and military, and its US enablers.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 2, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
note to "peace activists": beware israeli soldiers bearing video cameras

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 2, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
philo,

I know it's difficult to admit that one is wrong on a topic, but the time has come for you. But, the above article that you just read asserts that you are completely wrong.

Karl Baba sent me an email last week that he was wrong on an issue and I was right.

What a crock! I thought it was only fair not to burst Fatty's bubble but if I told him years ago I didn't trust the dollar and, after HUGE downturns of the dollar following that, it gets strong one in awhile, or another currency gets weak, what does that prove!??

I'll make a prediction right now, there will be a big rally in the stock market and also a precipitous decline sometime during the next 6 years, not necessarily in that order

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 2, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
Hey Fat-bro

If a guy had invested in the Euro back when we started talking about this, say about late 2005, early 2006, he would have been ahead for the past 3-4 years the whole time and would still be breaking even. An investor in the dollar would only be coming back to even, with no interest. Hardly time to gloat yet.

Look at the chart and see the victory of the dollar, breaking even after a number of years

http://tinyurl.com/23eeqyc

PEace

karl
MikeL

climber
Jun 2, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
Away from this forum now for about 18 months or so.

I can't tell if it's a good thing or a bad thing that things (other than the format) haven't changed much around here.

Oh well.

Be well,

MikeL
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 2, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 3, 2010 - 12:13am PT
So Fats, what justification will you give when the IDF gives the same treatment to the upcoming Flotilla sponsored by Ireland.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 3, 2010 - 08:40am PT
philo, just curious, why no attacks on egypt? they also are blockading gaza...do you support egyptism (as in zionism)? both egypt and israel invited the flotilla to dock in their ports and offered to transport any humanitarian supplies into gaza...why did the flotilla reject both invitations? why no attacks on cyprus, who refused to allow the flotilla to dock in their ports?

your criticism seems to be unfairly directed toward israel
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 3, 2010 - 10:34am PT
You mean any criticism directed at Israel is unfair.



Previous activists killed by Israel
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/2010531133245383565.html

Rachel Corrie was killed by an Israeli army bulldozer in Gaza on 16 March, 2003, as she tried to stop it demolishing a Palestinian home.

The family of the US activist blames the Israeli military for her death and is forcing the country to defend itselfin court.

Tom Hurndall was a 21-year-old photojournalism student who travelled to the Gaza Strip as part of the International Solidarity Movement.

He was shot in the head in April 2003 by an Israeli army sniper while trying to rescue Palestinian children in the street.

He never regained consciousness and died nine months later in a London hospital.

British cameraman James Miller,34, was shot dead by another soldier from the same Israeli unit just a mile away three weeks later.

He was in Rafah while making a documentary for a US cable channel.

An autopsy confirmed he was almost certainly killed by an Israeli soldier, despite the army's assertions to the contrary.

Video evidence clearly showed Miller and his team carrying white flags and shouting to Israeli soldiers that they were British journalists.

Tristan Anderson,38, had three brain operations after being shot in the head with a high-velocity tear gas canister by Israeli security forces on 13 March 2009.

Anderson, who survived with major brain damage, was in the West Bank village of Nilin, protesting with Palestinian farmers against the construction of Israel's "separation wall".





And Let's not forget the latest targeted international, American Emily Henochowicz, also shot deliberately and directly in the face with a high velocity tear gas canister by an IDF coward.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 3, 2010 - 10:38am PT
not exactly on topic but related...the welterweight champion of the world is a jew who immigrated to israel from hungary...he trained in an ARAB gym in israel...that's right, a gym owned and operated by ARABS...in ISRAEL...why would arabs want to live in israel? maybe because of the freedom to practice their religion and vote and criticize the government and get an education and start a business...yep, sounds like a nation that should be eliminated and replaced with a palestinian government that offers...wait...well...there has to be something...little help here...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 3, 2010 - 10:47am PT
Here is a question for Blue, Skip, and the gang.

In all the years of the thousands of deadly missiles launched daily from Gaza to rain death and terror on innocent Israeli settlers, exactly how many dead and wounded are there? How much damage (in Dollars) was caused?

Since Hamas rockets are such a huge issue for you it seems you should have those statistics readily available. So tell us just how much death and destruction was caused and why that should justify a strangle hold on Gaza?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 3, 2010 - 11:19am PT
So, I made your case by presenting the facts regarding the deliberate targeting of internationals. WTF?
Or by trying to get you all to acknowledge the subterfuge that the rocket fire has been?

Why not tell us how much death and destruction all those millions of rockets actually caused?

And you are saying that the IDF will stop the next flotilla simply because the flag ship from Ireland is called the Rachell Corrie? Are the Israelis embarrassed by the sh#t storm their bulldozer boy created?




And BookWrong, you know nothing of the current and historical realities. You only know the quazi religious narrative that has been continuously spoon fed too your waiting and vapid mind.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 3, 2010 - 11:34am PT
no, philo, not all criticism of israel is unfair...in fact, many israelis (not to mention the rest of the world) rightly criticize their own government when they think the military goes too far

my point is that you criticize ONLY israel when egypt has its own blockade of gaza...or is that acceptable because its arabs blockading arabs?


here's a question: what if i randomly fired a gun into your house everyday...and, after a few thousand shots, you decided to shoot back, killing me...then the whole neighborhood (including your friends) came down on you for being so violent and hateful...and then you explained how i was shooting into your house everyday and you have a right to protect yourself and your family...and then your friends said, "but he didn't hit anyone"...would you apologize for killing me?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 3, 2010 - 11:34am PT
Yeah, art students are such a threat to the security of Zionism.
And every body knows how deadly wheel chairs can be.
And God forbid the Gazans should get any medicine. We all know they would let their own kids die so the could launch syringes of penicillin at the Jews squatting on their grand dad's land.




That's rich, a Neo-con extolling the Virtues of Democrat Clinton to try and discredit a imprisoned people. Dude, why are you such an anti Semite?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 3, 2010 - 11:35am PT
forgot the link about the israeli boxer

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704875604575280972206169254.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTSecondBucket


man, i miss the days when a championship boxing match was big sporting news
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 3, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
As Abba Eban, the Israeli prime minister, so nicely put it in 1973 "The Israelies never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

Well, sort of anyway.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 3, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
Zionist scum kill another American youth in flottila massacre,

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/can-the-israeli-government-murder-americans-with-impunity.html

obama, biden, clinto, et al are pieces of shit
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 3, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
Muslim behavior as a percent of population

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works:

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%

Australia -- Muslim 1.5%

Canada -- Muslim 1.9%

China -- Muslim 1.8%

Italy -- Muslim 1.5%

Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%

Germany -- Muslim 3.7%

United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%

Spain -- Muslim 4%

Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%

Philippines -- 5%

Sweden -- Muslim 5%

Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%

The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%

Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%

India -- Muslim 13.4%

Israel -- Muslim 16%

Kenya -- Muslim 10%

Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%

Chad -- Muslim 53.1%

Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%

Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%

Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%

Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%

Egypt -- Muslim 90%

Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%

Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%

Iran -- Muslim 98%

Iraq -- Muslim 97%

Jordan -- Muslim 92%

Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%

Pakistan -- Muslim 97%

Palestine -- Muslim 99%

Syria -- Muslim 90%

Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%

Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%

United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%

Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%

Somalia -- Muslim 100%

Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 3, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
tgt how about the zionist component?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 3, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
http://english.moqawama.org/index.php

And just to make Fatty happy and not be one side

http://www.ict.org.il/

Even though these guys say they are the leading academic source don’t mean that they are since their about a couple hundred that claim the same thing but still need to know who is playing the game.

Deadly game

Think tanks or is it stink tanks, make your choice, same for some here in US on domestic as well as foreign policy.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 3, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
Seems like Israel is giving way in terms of their blockade.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/world/middleeast/04flotilla.html?hp

It appears that the US government has concluded that the blockade is untenable. The Egyptian government has ended its own blockade of traffic of Gaza. The pending arrival of the next supply vessel, the Rachel Corrie, may have been the last straw. She was the American Jewish woman murdered by an Israeli bulldozer in Gaza in 2003.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 4, 2010 - 12:10am PT
Didn't you read that link to find out the reason?


Or is subterfuge and obfuscation enough?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2010 - 07:22am PT
June 3, 2010
Singling Out Israel is Nothing New
By David Warren

In our topsy-turvy contemporary world, where fashionable opinion can be counted upon to turn any moral issue upside down, Israel has again been singled out for expressions of indignation and loathing. This is because she stooped to defending herself again, against a scheme designed to break the embargo that prevents the Hamas terrorist organization from fully arming itself.

The organizers of the "Gaza flotilla," which was stopped at the cost of bloodshed that Israel had every reason to avoid, got exactly what they wanted from it: a huge, international media splash, in which Israel has been demonized.

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They could not have been in doubt that the Israeli authorities would intercept them, and prevent them from landing in Gaza. They knew exactly what would happen if they attacked the Israeli soldiers boarding their ships.

Ergo, they got exactly the result they were seeking: fresh "martyrs" for the Palestinian campaign. Video from the event shows exactly what the Israelis were facing as they boarded those ships, and belies the organizers' pose of a humanitarian mission.

From start to finish this was a violent political stunt, designed to inflict as much harm as possible on Israel's existential interests. To defend it requires obtuse hypocrisy.

Consider: the embargo on Gaza is not Israel's alone. Egypt also enforces strict controls on what enters and leaves Gaza, and for the same obvious reason. The territory is controlled by Hamas, and they are trying to import lethal weaponry, from Iran and other rogue sources. But Egypt is conveniently left out of the propaganda picture.

The people of Gaza already have access to food, medicine, and even building materials. The bureaucracies that slow the importation of such things, through Israel or Egypt, are indeed unpleasant and constraining -- as they must be, for a very large portion of Gaza's imports are "dual use," and could therefore strengthen the hand of Hamas one way or another.

In the case of concrete, for instance, end use must be documented. But this is because Hamas is the principal customer for concrete in Gaza, which it uses in everything from tunnelling to the fortification of its rocket-launching facilities.

The organizers of the flotilla were not "pacifists" in any honest sense, but parties to the conflict: radical Islamist groups, unambiguously committed to Israel's annihilation. The chief organizer was a Turkish "charity," Insani Yardim Vakfi, with documented links to Hamas and even al-Qaeda; the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt was also directly involved. The "humanitarian" pretense is for the consumption of two groups: the extremely gullible, and the extremely cynical.

The flotilla was stocked with the usual assemblage of the wilfully naive: a few hundred European and other "do-gooders," including even one Jewish Holocaust survivor. They were invited along as a cosmetic imperative; as "human shields." The violence was, and was intended to be, between the Islamists and the Israeli soldiers they were certain to confront. Those who physically attacked the soldiers were working from the same impulse as suicide bombers; the rest were only there to howl.

It is amazing to me that there are still "liberals" like this, even within Israel. I have actually met people who live a few hundred metres from the front line with an enemy sworn to exterminate them; who think the "road to peace" can be paved with unilateral Israeli concessions. They embody my worst fears for the West at large: that even in the face of extinction, our own "progressive" types will continue to demand the appeasement of our mortal enemies.

Yet this was the very lesson of the Holocaust: Do not agree to go quietly, into the ovens, or into the sea. So long as there is breath in you, and the possibility of resistance, fight.

Israel was herself founded on this "Zionist" premise: that Jews would defend themselves; that they would not "go quietly" again. That they would not depend on the goodwill of false friends. Why should Israelis take advice from people who openly encourage an enemy vowed to exterminate them?

Consider the level of hypocrisy here. There were no international "peace" demonstrations when a North Korean submarine torpedoed a South Korean vessel that was offering no threat. There is total indignation when Israel acts against a direct threat to her vital interests.

Yes, the Palestinians suffer. But there is a remedy for that: to fully accept that Israel exists, and be willing to live in peace with her, as with any other country. That option has been on the table continuously since 1948, and has been consistently rejected by Palestinian leaders.

Israel remains the "Little Satan" of Islamist and Leftist demonology. We -- America and the West at large -- are the "Big Satan." This is, likewise, an old configuration, that will not change in the foreseeable future. Let us therefore be robust in our support of "Little Satan."

otiosus@sympatico.ca
© The Ottawa Citizen

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2010 - 08:52am PT
June 4, 2010 12:00 A.M.
Israel, Disarmed

If even a blockade, the most passive and benign of defenses, is impermissible, what defenses does Israel have left?



The world is outraged at Israel’s blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel — a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded (“quarantined”) Cuba. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren’t the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel’s offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiél, and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza — as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine, and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel’s inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted weapons-laden ships from Iran destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because blockade is Israel’s fallback as the world systematically delegitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself — forward and active defense.

1. Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense — fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai peninsula and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example), Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies — and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land — evacuating southern Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks, and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

2. Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense — military action to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat (to borrow President Obama’s description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and the Gaza operation of 2008–09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N.’s Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel’s defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli — the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war — effectively delegitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

3. Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses — a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international delegitimization.

But, if none of these are permissible, what’s left?

Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, six million — that number again — hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized, and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists — Iranian in particular — openly prepare a more final solution.

— Charles Krauthammer is a nationally syndicated columnist. © 2010, The Washington Post Writers Group.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2010 - 10:17am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-HiOrv1DiI
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 4, 2010 - 10:49am PT
You really buy that BS don't you bookwrong?
Krauthammer is the biggest piece of dung ever allowed column inches. Nothing that comes from his pie hole should be given even passing attention.

I guess the whole world must be wrong if Israel is right.

International Peace Activists were naive and just there as "human shields".... Come on get real.
What were they unwilling hostages of Hamas?....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 4, 2010 - 11:55am PT
Don't be an ass Fats. Bill Clinton doesn't think I am wrong. Bill Clinton doesn't even know I exist.
Quit using stoopid hackneyed misdirection to avoid the hard issues.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
June 4, 2010 12:00 A.M.
The Convenient Enemy

To say that Israel’s problem is one of PR is to assume that the rest of the world is interested in hearing both sides of the story.



On May 29, two days before Israel’s botched raid of six “humanitarian” ships bound for Gaza, Robert Naiman, the policy director of something called “Just Foreign Policy,” had an item in the Huffington Post headlined “Gaza Freedom Flotilla Shows Awesome Power of Nonviolent Resistance.”

Naiman waxed lyrical about how the moral authority of nonviolence had compelled Turkish-controlled Cyprus to help the flotilla while Greek-controlled Cyprus had allegedly caved to Israeli pressure and refused to help the heirs of Gandhi (it couldn’t have been because the Turks were up to no good).

“All this,” Naiman gushed, “and the main confrontation between the Israeli occupation authorities and the Gaza Freedom Flotilla has not yet begun.”

Roughly 48 hours later, the “main confrontation” unfolded. In fairness, the majority of the “peace activists” on the ships were nonviolent, offering passive resistance. But on the last boat Israelis boarded, the supposed disciples of peace attacked the Israeli commandos. These new Gandhians beat the Israelis with metal bars and even threw one Israeli overboard.

Funny, I’m no expert, but that’s not how Gandhi behaved in the movie. Maybe there was a sequel with Chuck Norris as the Mahatma? “Gandhi’s back, and this time it’s personal!”

The commandos had been equipped with paintball guns, out of deference to the professed pacifism of the activists. But when the goons attacked, out came the real sidearms. Nine “humanitarians” were killed.

Now, one wouldn’t expect Naiman to take Israel’s side. He’d lose his social-justice decoder ring for that. But one might expect him to at least lament the failure of his comrades to stick to their principled nonviolence.

One might also expect kosher pigs to fly.

After the incident, Naiman returned to the Huffington Post not to lament the outbreak of violence but to salute the resolve of the “humanitarians.”

He opened with a question: “How do you know when someone is serious about pursuing a strategy of nonviolent resistance until victory for justice is achieved?” And then he answered it: “When they refuse to turn back in the face of state violence. Damn the commandos. Full speed ahead.” He then went on to celebrate another propaganda ship heading toward Gaza.

How do you know when a proselytizer of nonviolence is full of it? When he doesn’t object to the use of violence.

Among Israel’s friends, there’s a deep and wide consensus that the “flotilla fiasco” was a public-relations disaster, proof that Israel doesn’t know how to work with the global media to shape world opinion.

The first part is almost indisputable at this point. The raid was a disaster. As for the second part — that Israel’s problems are about public relations — I’m not so sure.

The assumption is that world opinion is open to hearing Israel’s side of the story. But that hasn’t been the case for years. From the “Jenin massacre” that was no massacre to the idiotic charges of “genocide” that erupt across the Arab world the moment Israel defends itself from missiles or “martyrs,” the presumption is always that Israel is the villain. When it turns out the facts support Israel, it’s at best a footnote or proof the Israelis have manipulated the media.

Question: If Israel is always hell-bent on murder, massacres, and genocide, why is it so bad at it? If its battle plan called for a slaughter, why kill “only” nine people? Why not sink all of the boats?

Meanwhile, is it really the case that Hamas is objectively “good” at public relations? Or Hezbollah? Or Iran? Really? I just don’t see it. To me, these PR operations are less Wag the Dog and more Baghdad Bob (the Monty Python–esque spokesman for Saddam Hussein’s regime). But instead of everyone laughing at the lies and idiocy, millions of people nod their heads in agreement.

North Korea recently sank a South Korean ship. The international reaction has been muted and sober. Turkey — the Palestinians’ new champion — has been treating Kurdish nationalists harshly for generations; no one cares. The Russians crush Chechens, the Chinese trample Uighurs. Real genocides unfold regularly in Africa. Iran is pursuing a nuclear bomb. Hamas is openly dedicated to the destruction of Israel. So is Iran.

And yet the only villain as far as much of the world is concerned is Israel. Always Israel.

But none of these facts matter. Indeed, it’s tiring even to recount them in an environment where big lies matters more than obvious truths, where self-defense is “aggression,” where restraint is “genocide,” and where the heirs of Gandhi wield steel pipes.

— Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. © 2010 Tribune Media Services, Inc.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 4, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
On the other hand, the US recently released a quite repulsive movie, called "Sex and the City 2". It's about the wanton, shallow behaviour of some vapid, vacuous American women in an Arab country, illustrating for the world the (sometime) superficiality of U.S. "culture". Pretty convincing proof that the US is uncivilized - as if rap "music" and U.S. football weren't enough. Maybe the Arabs have a point.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 4, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. © 2010 Tribune Media Services, Inc.




AEI is a zionist "think" tank who's sole purpose is to help hijack us foriegn policy. goldberg is a a chief protaganist of that effort. they quite succesfully influenced the US invasion of iraq. i suspect the day of backlash will be upon us in the not too distant future when the average joe finally understands that their sons/ daughters/ economy is going down the tubes in support of a sociopathic theocracy. it has happened before.
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jun 4, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
This boy standing alone against roaring crowd in LA can be climbing Buterballs on nuts!
I think when he show up there with his Israeli flag on Memorial day , he did not expect be protected by police.
Fortunately it was many officers near Israeli consulate in LA this day..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 4, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded#!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 4, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
From Alexey's link, whenever you see a scraming, hatful, intolerant group marching around, look for the professionally printed Int'l A.N.S.W.E.R signs (look at the bottom of the signs).

brave kid though.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
life in gaza:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tOdW0qEy4g
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 5, 2010 - 08:19am PT
June 5, 2010 6:00 A.M.
Israel, Turkey, and the End of Stability

Contempt for Israel is contempt for Washington.




Foreign policy “realists,” back in the saddle since the Texan cowboy left town, are extremely fond of the concept of “stability”: America needs a stable Middle East, so we should learn to live with Mubarak and the mullahs and the House of Saud, etc. You can see the appeal of “stability” to your big-time geopolitical analyst: You don’t have to update your Rolodex too often, never mind rethink your assumptions. “Stability” is a fancy term to upgrade inertia and complacency into strategy. No wonder the fetishization of stability is one of the most stable features of foreign-policy analysis.

Unfortunately, back in what passes for the real world, there is no stability. History is always on the march, and, if it’s not moving in your direction, it’s generally moving in the other fellow’s. Take this “humanitarian” “aid” flotilla. Much of what went on — the dissembling of the Palestinian propagandists, the hysteria of the U.N. and the Euro-ninnies — was just business as usual. But what was most striking was the behavior of the Turks. In the wake of the Israeli raid, Ankara promised to provide Turkish naval protection for the next “aid” convoy to Gaza. This would be, in effect, an act of war — more to the point, an act of war by a NATO member against the State of Israel.

Ten years ago, Turkey’s behavior would have been unthinkable. Ankara was Israel’s best friend in a region where every other neighbor wishes, to one degree or another, the Jewish state’s destruction. Even when Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s AKP was elected to power eight years ago, the experts assured us there was no need to worry. I remember sitting in a plush bar late one night with a former Turkish foreign minister, who told me, in between passing round the cigars and chugging back the Scotch, that, yes, the new crowd weren’t quite so convivial in the wee small hours but, other than that, they knew where their interests lay. Like many Turkish movers and shakers of his generation, my drinking companion loved the Israelis. “They’re tough hombres,” he said admiringly. “You have to be in this part of the world.” If you had suggested to him that in six years’ time the Turkish prime minister would be telling the Israeli president to his face that “I know well how you kill children on beaches,” he would have dismissed it as a fantasy concoction for some alternative universe.

Yet it happened. Erdogan said those words to Shimon Peres at Davos last year and then flounced off stage. Day by day what was formerly the Zionist entity’s staunchest pal talks more and more like just another cookie-cutter death-to-the-Great-Satan stan-of-the-month.

As the think-tankers like to say: “Who lost Turkey?” In a nutshell: Kemal Ataturk. Since he founded post-Ottoman Turkey in his own image nearly nine decades ago, the population has increased from 14 million to over 70 million. But that five-fold increase is not evenly distributed. The short version of Turkish demographics in the 20th century is that Rumelian Turkey — i.e., western, European, secular, Kemalist Turkey — has been outbred by Anatolian Turkey — i.e., eastern, rural, traditionalist, Islamic Turkey. Ataturk and most of his supporters were from Rumelia, and they imposed the modern Turkish republic on a reluctant Anatolia, where Ataturk’s distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. Now they don’t have to accept it. The swelling population has spilled out of its rural hinterland and into the once solidly Kemalist cities.


Do you ever use the expression “young Turks”? I heard it applied to the starry-eyed ideologues around Obama the other day. The phrase comes from the original young Turks, the youthful activists agitating for reform in the last decades of the Ottoman Empire. The very words acknowledge the link between political and demographic energy. Today, the “young Turks” are old Turks: The heirs to the Kemalist reformers who gave women the vote before Britain did are a population in demographic decline. There will be fewer of them in every election. Today’s young Turks are men who think as Erdogan does. That doesn’t mean Turkey is Iran or Waziristan or Saudi Arabia, but it does mean that the country’s leadership is in favor of more or less conventional Islamic imperialism. As Erdogan’s most famous sound bite puts it: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets, and the faithful our soldiers.”

Some Western “experts” like to see this as merely a confident, economically buoyant Turkey’s “re-Ottomanization.” But the virulent anti-Semitism emanating from Erdogan’s fief is nothing to do with the old-time caliphate (where, unlike rebellious Arabs, the Jews were loyal or at least quiescent subjects), and all but undistinguishable from the globalized hyper-Islam successfully seeded around the world by Wahhabist money and so enthusiastically embraced by third-generation Euro-Muslims. Since 9/11, many of us have speculated about Muslim reform, in the Arab world and beyond. It’s hard to recall now but just a few years ago there was talk about whether General Musharraf would be Pakistan’s Ataturk. Instead, what we’re witnessing is the most prominent example of Muslim reform being de-reformed, before our very eyes, in nothing flat.

Demography is destiny, for the most part. For example, European Muslim populations are young, fast-growing, and profoundly hostile to Jews. European Jewish populations are old, fading, and irrelevant to domestic electoral calculations. Think of your stereotypically squishy pol, and then figure the reserves of courage it would require for the European establishment not to be anti-Israeli, and, indeed, ever more anti-Israeli as the years go by.

But demography alone isn’t always destiny. A confident culture can dominate far larger numbers of people, as England did for much of modern history. Bismarck’s famous remark that, if the British army invaded Germany, he’d send the local police force to arrest them is generally taken as a sneer at the minimal size of Her Britannic Majesty’s armed forces. But, in another sense, it’s a testament to how much the British accomplished with so little. Erdogan would not be palling up to Ahmadinejad and Boy Assad in Syria and even Sudan’s genocidal President Bashir, the Butcher of Darfur, if he were mindful of Turkey’s relationship with the United States. But he isn’t. He looks at the American hyperpower and sees, to all intents, a late Ottoman sultan — pampered, decadent, lounging on its cushions puffing a hookah but unable to rouse itself to impose its will in the world. In that sense, Turkey’s contempt for Israel is also an expression of near total contempt for Washington.

Is Erdogan wrong in his calculation? Or is he, in his own fashion, only reaching his own conclusions about what Israel, India, the Czech Republic, and others are coming to see as “the post-American world”? Well, look at it as if you’re sitting in the presidential palace of some or other Third World basket case. Iran is going nuclear in full view of the world, and with huge implications for everything, not least the price of oil. Meanwhile, NATO’s only Muslim member has decided it would rather be friends with Iran, Sudan, and Syria. And all this in the first decade of the 21st century. So much for stability.

— Mark Steyn, a National Review columnist, is author of America Alone. © 2010 Mark Steyn.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 5, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
Strange that FatTrad shoud adopt terms supposedly used by pirates, given that under international law, what Israel did last week, and may do again, is considered piracy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 5, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
Strange that FatTrad shoud adopt terms supposedly used by pirates, given that under international law, what Israel did last week, and may do again, is considered piracy.

Check you facts under Int'l Maritime law, Anders...

Especially parts regarding a willful intention to run a military blockade.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 5, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
You can't blockade another country without authority under international law, e.g. a United Nations resolution. Israel has no such legal authority for blockading Palestine, including Gaza. Given a lack of any legal authority for what its doing, and it taking place in international waters, it's piracy.

As with so many of their actions, the Israelis seem to be shooting themselves in the foot on this one. They're simply being bullies. If they were to limit their demand to a right to inspect (once vessels are in territorial waters), only refused transit to materials that are clearly or reasonably could be taken to be military (instead of virtually everything but food and medical supplies), and weren't so clumsy and aggressive about their activities, they'd have more support.

Of course, Hamas has won a brilliant PR coup with this, but it seems doubtful they have the realpolitik to make the necessary compromises. A Gordian knot, but not one that will be solved through by blind violence by either party.

Egypt's opening its border with Gaza, at least temporarily, may make the discussion moot in any case.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 5, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
From a FOXnews report.

A maritime blockade remains in effect off the coast of Gaza, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with Hamas, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea, according to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Robert Margolis, an expert in international maritime law based out of Vancouver, Canada, said no boats, including civilian and enemy vessels, can enter a blockaded area when a maritime blockade is in effect.

"Israel is acting under the customary maritime law of blockade," Margolis told FoxNews.com. "You're allowed to do that; they declared a blockade over a port."

Margolis said Israel is acting "completely" within guidelines of blockades under international maritime law. Any vessel that violates a blockade, including the Rachel Corrie, may be captured, boarded or even attacked under international law.

"If [the Rachel Corrie] insisted on going all the way to Gaza, then the Israelis have the right to board it, not to sink it," said Margolis, citing guidelines regarding appropriate use of force. "Rather than sink it, Israeli commandos would board the vessel."

Once a blockade is established, Margolis said it must be enforced.

"You can't have a blockade where you don't try and stop every vessel," he said. "Blockades fail from non-enforcement. The law of blockades require enforcement; there's no such thing as a paper blockade."

link here;
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/03/second-aid-ship-reportedly-headed-gaza/



EDIT: Egypt's opening its border with Gaza, at least temporarily, may make the discussion moot in any case.

And why does Egypt (the other border with Gaza) never get dissed about sealing their border or killing border jumpers??? They're not Joooooos!
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 5, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
Blue,

excellent point. the egyption gov't (not egyptian people) gets paid a ton of US cash courtesy of your taxes to do as we/ israel wishes. something around $500 million a year. just another cost associated with our love for Israel.

glad we have money to burn....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 6, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
The whirring sound of the apologists for Israel spinning PR is deafening.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 6, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Alexey, I think the kid with the flag was an arrogant prig.
You don't go to an NAACP funeral in a Clan cone hat. And a black man doesn't go to a clan rally to fight for his civil rights. What was he thinking? He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew he would be protected by the Police State. How kosher of him to incite from behind a pig fence. He clearly wanted to provoke a physical altercation so the right wing press could have a field day with the angry Arab mob descending on the poor innocent defenseless jewboy. Flotilla, what flotilla?

He is just a spoiled American brat kid who's only context is the mindless victim mentality that he has been sauteed in since birth. He probably has no real connection to the Middle East other than the endlessly regurgitated Jewish narrative. While several people among the protestors clearly had had family members killed by (un)settlers and IDF goons. What is this kid demonstrating? Israel's "God given" right to murder with impunity?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 6, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
Published 03:45 06.06.10Latest update 03:45 06.06.10
Breaking out of the siege
If Israel is to break out of the international siege and strategic catastrophe it now faces, it urgently needs a different policy.

Haaretz Editorial
The intelligence failure and faulty planning in last week's operation to board the Mavi Marmara led to a crisis in Israel's foreign relations in the blink of an eye and a low in its standing in world public opinion. The international community is demanding an investigation into the incident and is roundly criticizing the siege Israel continues to impose on the Gaza Strip's 1.5 million residents. Friendly countries such as the United States and France are demanding that the Israeli government lift restrictions on the passage into Gaza of goods and raw materials for civilian use.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in his usual manner, rushed to raise the specter of the Iranian threat along with the adage that "the whole world is against us." Instead of locating the source of the fire scorching the diplomatic relations we built up with such effort, Netanyahu is following in the footsteps of his ostracized foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, accusing the world of hypocritical treatment of Israel.


In an effort to evade responsibility for the crisis and escape his obligation to fundamentally change his policy, the prime minister is distorting the nature of the criticism against his government and has plied it as hatred of the Jews.

Netanyahu and Lieberman are imposing a siege on a Jewish and democratic state that has professed to be a light unto the nations, but is becoming anathema among nations. The disagreement over halting construction in West Bank settlements and East Jerusalem sorely eroded the goodwill Israel had garnered in the wake of Netanyahu's declared support for a two-state solution. Last month's nuclear nonproliferation conference diverted attention from the Iranian nuclear program to Israel's nuclear capabilities. The summit of countries bordering the Mediterranean, which had been due to open today in Barcelona, was scrapped following Arab leaders' refusal to be in the company of the Israeli foreign minister. And finally, the proximity talks with the Palestinians are being portrayed as a recipe for perpetuating the deadlock in the peace process.

Reasonable governments of democratic countries act in accordance with the interests of their citizens. Even if the world is "hypocritical," as Netanyahu claims, he must fundamentally change his government's aggressive and inward-looking approach; it is not within his power to change the nature of the rest of the world.

A thorough investigation of the Mavi Marmara incident and the lifting of the siege against civilians in Gaza are essential steps, but they are certainly not sufficient. If Israel is to break out of the international siege and strategic catastrophe it now faces, it urgently needs a different policy.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 6, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
Oh sorry about that Jeff I meant big fence. Should I edit it?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 6, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
I sympathize for you Fats. Will you be taking away my mind or my speak?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 8, 2010 - 09:08am PT
i know this doesn't belong here, specifically, but it does illustrate why i love the israelis:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177789

hmmm...wonder how the world will react
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 8, 2010 - 11:44am PT
hmmm...wonder how the world will react

Let me explain for you;

Israelis = Savage oppressors and occupiers

Palestinians/Hamas = Peaceful victims, freedom fighters

Armenians/Kurds = violent terrorists

Turks = Noble humanitarians

(I suspect you know this already though...)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 8, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
Well, now that we know that UBL is hiding out in Savzevar, Iran will BHO go after him as promised?








Osama bin Laden's hiding place was pinned down for the first time Monday, June 7, by the Kuwaiti (newspaper) Al-Siyassa Monday, June 7, as the mountainous town of Savzevar in the northeastern Iranian province of Khorasan, 220 km west of Mashhad.

He is said to have lived there under Tehran's protection for the last five years, along with Ayman Al-Zawahiri and five other high-ranking al Qaeda leaders.

Intelligence sources disclosed Monday night that Turkish prime minister Recep Erdogan and his intelligence chiefs are well aware that Bin Laden and Zawahiri are hiding in Iran.

The leak to the Kuwait paper was intended to show the Obama administration that the Turkish leader's ties with Iran had grown intense enough for him to be fully in the picture of Iran's secret sanctuary for the authors of the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

Savzevar (alt. Sabzevar), a small town of about a quarter of a million inhabitants, is connected by road to Tehran and Mashhad and has a small airport. A center for producing grapes and raisins, its location is remote and difficult to access because it is enclosed by lofty mountains and a salt desert 50,000 square kilometers in area.

On May 13, American intelligence sources reported in detail that senior al Qaeda operatives living in Iran had been allowed to leave the country through Syria to orchestrate terrorist attacks on American targets. Among them was Saif al-Adel, who is believed to have been assigned with planning an attack on the world soccer games opening in South Africa on June 12.

Those sources noted that Saif al-Adel had received his instructions directly from Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri but did not reveal knowledge of their presence in Iran.
Quote Here
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 9, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
barry's administration continues its shameful slouching:

Syrian Rep Promotes Blood Libel at UN Human Rights Council
BY Anne Bayefsky
June 8, 2010 2:40 PM


Meeting today in Geneva, the UN Human Rights Council heard the following statement from the Syrian representative, First Secretary Rania Al Rifaiy: “Israel…is a state that is built on hatred…Let me quote a song that a group of children on a school bus in Israel sing merrily as they go to school and I quote 'With my teeth I will rip your flesh. With my mouth I will suck your blood.'" The Obama administration chose to join this Council, the UN’s lead human rights body, and its representative was present. But they said nothing after hearing this blood libel.

On the contrary, rather than expose the Council and its anti-Jewish agenda, one of President Obama’s first foreign policy moves was a decision to pay for it. Hence, American taxpayers will pay 22 percent of the cost for this speech to be permanently posted on the UN website, translated, and broadcast around the world.

There is a reason that none of the members of the UN Human Rights Council thought this statement was sufficiently repulsive or shocking to complain. The blood libel against the Jewish people is a calling card of UN proceedings, with UN members usually casting their anti-Semitism as vicious anti-Israel attacks. For instance, last week’s Council debate over the attempt by Turkish-backed extremists to break the Israeli blockade of Hamas-controlled Gaza included the following outbursts. Along with references to Israel’s desire for “bloodshed,” came Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua’s accusation that “the Zionist regime” conducted an “indescribable” and “brutal massacre.” Pakistan said Israel committed “crimes against humanity,” Algeria described Israelis as “butchers,” and Libya distributed a statement entitled “The Massacre Committed by the Zionist Entity Forces.”

The UN Human Rights Council has a webpage for all those who follow its proceedings. Although it is now in the midst of its fourteenth session, and has thousands of videos from its many meetings since 2006, smack in the middle of its home page is only one video link. It reads: “Human Rights Council 12th session Highlights,” and has a photo of Richard Goldstone. He is speaking about his libelous 2009 report that claimed Israel deliberately intended to murder civilians in the 2009 Gaza war rather than defend itself against eight years of rocket attacks.

In the chair during the Syrian statement today was Council President Alex Van Meeuwen of Belgium, who also said nothing, though he has no trouble finding his voice when it comes to objecting to statements from Israel or other states and NGOs which refer to less popular subjects. Today, following this statement by Canadian representative Jeffrey Heaton – “Canada condemns the lack of respect of the Burmese regime for human rights and fundamental freedoms of its population” – Van Meeuwen responded: “before moving to the next speaker, I would like to ask once again all speakers to refrain from using words such as regime in reference to member states and uphold to UN standards when referring to countries.”

In February, after Israeli Ambassador Aharon Leshno-Yaar called upon Iranian leaders to cease denying the Holocaust, Van Meeuwen exceptionally intervened in the debate to chide: “I would like to remind all speakers of the importance to deal with human rights issues with dignity and respect and to and to adhere to the well-established principles of the United Nations.” But when it came to dehumanizing Israeli children, Van Meeuwen had only two words to say: “Thank you.”

There are no more excuses for President Obama to pretend that there is a greater good in lending American credibility to an international vehicle for anti-Semitism. It is time to leave the UN Human Rights Council and to ensure that not a single U.S. dollar is used to encourage its sickening agenda.


Anne Bayefsky is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and director of the Touro Institute on Human Rights and the Holocaust.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:09am PT
Well BrainWorm it most really crumple your tighty whitys to realize the whole world is waking up tp the truths behind the mythical Israeli narrative. You must be leaving Skid marks in your skivies to see the world reject the occupation of Palestine.


Zionists and the Jewish Fundamentalists are their own worst enemy.



Fattrad must be appoplectic that Obama pledged $400 million to rebuild the occupied territories.
A drop in the bucket compared to the tens of billions we flood Is(un)reall with.


The times they are a changin'.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:13am PT
TGT, what's the source for that info?
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:27am PT


the source is neocon and extreme right wing psycho Anne Bayefsky.

http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Bayefsky_Anne


note her membership in the Hudson Institute, a extremely pro likud neocon "think" tank. promoters of the wars in iraq and afganistan they will be happy to send our sons and daughters to iran to further israels cause. this isn't a conspiracy theory, this is a conspiracy;

http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Hudson_Institute

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:36am PT
Except it would all get spent on rockets and suicide bombs.


(what was left over after the Swiss bank accounts filled up, a'la Arafat)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 10, 2010 - 11:16am PT
Why did 'The Nation' photoshop an Israeli flag into this pic???


http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/09-Jun-2010/Progress-in-Afghan-war-must-come-this-year-Gates

losers...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 10, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/20106535425983666.html


Flotilla activists 'shot 30 times'

Al Jazeera speaks to some of the injured activists, who are recovering in Ankara Hospital

Autopsies on bodies of activists killed in Israel's attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla five days ago indicate that the victims were shot multiple times at close range.

Britain's Guardian newspaper quoted Yalcin Buyuk, the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, as saying that the nine men were shot a total of 30 times.

Two men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, Buyuk told the newspaper, based on preliminary autopsy reports.

Ibrahim Bilgen, a 60-year-old activist, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, the autopsy revealed.

Nineteen-year-old Furkan Dogan, a US citizen of Turkish descent, was shot five times from less that 45cm in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back.

IN DEPTH

Nine people were killed in Monday's pre-dawn raid on the Freedom Flotilla, a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid, that was heading to Gaza in a bid to break Israel's blockade of the territory.

Israeli military said the marines, who boarded the ship in international waters, fired in self-defence after activists attacked them.

Avital Leibovich, an Israeli military spokeswoman, when asked why a 60-year-old and 19-year-old, amongst others, were shot multiple times at close range, told Al Jazeera: "We learnt the hard way that terrorists can be of a variety of ages or backgrounds."

"They had one goal, they chose to confront us with knives and metal rods," she said.

'Shot from helicopter'

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, who was travelling in the flotilla and witnessed the Israeli raid, confirmed that some passengers took apart some of the ship's railings to defend themselves as they saw the Israeli soldiers approaching.

He said that he witnessed some of the killings, and confirmed that at least "one person was shot through the top of the head from [the helicopter] above."

ACTIVISTS KILLED


Turkish victims
Ibrahim Bilgen
Ali Haydar Bengi
Cevdet Kiliçlar
Çetin Topçuoglu
Necdet Yildirim
Fahri Yaldiz
Cengiz Songür
Cengiz Akyüz
US victim
Furkan Dogan
"After the shooting and the first deaths, people put up white flags and signs in English and Hebrew," he said.

"An Israeli activist [on the ship] asked the soldiers to take away the injured, but they did not and the injured died on the ship."

The deaths, which all took place on the lead ship, the Mavi Marmara, continue to draw widespread condemnation.

Turkish newspapers reported on Saturday that the prosecutor's office in Istanbul, in Turkey, had compiled enough evidence to press charges against Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, the defence mininster, and Gabi Ashkenazi, Israel's chief of staff.

The charges would include murder, injury, attacking Turkish citizens on the open seas and piracy, Today's Zaman, the English-language daily, said.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister of Turkey, speaking during a televised speech said: "You [Israel] killed 19-year-old Furkan Dogan brutally. Which faith, which holy book can be an excuse for killing him?"

"I am speaking to them in their own language. The sixth commandment says "thou shalt not kill". Did you not understand? I'll say again. I say in English "you shall not kill". Did you still not understand? So I'll say to you in your own language. I say in Hebrew 'Lo Tirtzakh'."

Talking about Hamas, he said: "[They] are resistance fighters fighting for their land. They are Palestinians.

"They won an election and now they are in Israel's prisons. I told this to the Americans, that I do not accept Hamas as a terrorist group."

Turkey threat

Namik Tan, Turkey's ambassador to Washington, also warned on Friday that his country could break all relations with Israel unless it apologises for the raid against Mavi Marmara, which carried a Turkish flag.


Tan also said that Turkey wanted a credible independent investigation into the events and for Israel to end its blockade of Gaza.

Three Turkish activists wounded in the raid arrived back home on a medical plane on Friday. Another two volunteers who were seriously wounded remain in an Israeli hospital, with a Turkish plane on stand-by to repatriate them, Recep Akdag, Turkey's health minister said.

The US said that it would investigate the death of Dogan, the youngest killed in the attack, who had joint Turkish-US citizenship.

"We will look into the circumstances of the death of an American citizen, as we would do anywhere in the world at all times," Philip Crowley, a state department spokesman, said.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 10, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
Thee sixth commandment says "thou shalt not kill". Did you not understand? I'll say again. I say in English "you shall not kill".

That's not accurate. It was written 'thou shalt not murder'.

There's a difference (unless you choose to misrepresent the truth).
dirtbag

climber
Jun 10, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
Gee, I wonder why we aren't seeing the fantastic claims of Bin Laden's whereabouts posted in MSM websites?

ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
"There's little doubt that during hand to hand combat it's possible several people were shot at close range."

fats, are these your "men" in action?


http://warincontext.org/2010/06/10/israels-self-defense-narrative-falls-apart/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 10, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
To stand above an injured man and then finish him off with rounds from an assault rifle can by no ones estimation be described as an act of self-defense.

I thought the rifles were paintball rifles. The sidearms were the only live-ammo guns they took aboard as backups.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 10, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
In which case Blue, they would have been torturing a dying man. For what, sport?
Either way it is a despicable act of over kill. In fact it's a barbaric act of terrorism!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
"by Mr. Wrestling IV

On May 24th, at Track 16 Gallery in fashionable Bergamont Station in Santa Monica, CA, dozens of marginal works of art were nearly destroyed by the exploding heads of some of SoCal’s finest and most dogmatic liberals, as a roomful of them were injected with some cognitive dissonance when author Ayaan Hirsi Ali spoke.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the author of Infidel, a deeply personal account of her disillusionment with and rejection of her Muslim upbringing, as well as her latest book Nomad, which chronicles her continuing journey. She also collaborated with late film director Theo Van Gogh on the short documentary film Submission, the release of which resulted in the brutal assassination of Van Gogh by a homegrown Dutch Islamic jihadist and ultimately drove her from the Netherlands because of her inability to find adequate security there. She continues to be an outspoken critic of the subjugation and mistreatment of women under fundamentalist Islam, and the AHA Foundation which she founded aims to combat “several types of crimes against women, including female genital mutilation, forced marriages, honor violence, and honor killings.” These would seem to be fairly non-controversial goals, especially in a pro-feminist Western society, but they received a rather chilly response that night from the tolerant progressives of Santa Monica.

During the interview portion of the evening, I was struck by how quiet the room was. Statements made by Ms. Ali that in most cities in middle America would have received applause were met with a respectful but stony silence. When the floor was opened for questions from the seemingly stunned audience, one after another of Santa Monica’s finest political thinkers rose unsteadily from their chairs to ask a question that might allow them to hold onto their deeply-held and carefully nuanced progressive beliefs in the face of someone who must have seemed to them to be an untouchable figure, a woman born in Somalia who left Islam and became an atheist, as well as an unrelenting critic of the injustice and violence that is routinely taught in the Muslim world.

In response to a lady who asked passionately if it was not true that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq had created more terrorists than they had thwarted, Ms. Ali calmly replied that the jihadists of course used these wars as propaganda for recruitment, just as they would use any situation for recruitment, since they are in the business of destroying free societies and bringing them under submission to shari’a law, and that no matter what the West did, the jihadists would recruit and terrorize.

One very confused and shaken white-haired gentleman could barely form a question, stammering that he had “great respect” for her but disagreed with almost everything she said. As he rambled on, many of his colleagues began to call at him “What’s your question?” and “No speeches, ask a question!” He finally concluded with a semi-coherent plea along the lines of, “Well, how do we deal with these extremists?”

Ali replied that once you have decided to “deal” with the jihadists, you have legitimized their demands of submission, and that you cannot “deal” with fanatics who wish to destroy your nice free society with bike paths and reusable shopping bags and replace it with a totalitarian theocracy. She went on to object to the vague use of the term “extremists,” asking “Extremists of what?” If we were talking about white supremacists, or radical Marxists or Communists or any other “-ists” that used terrorism and violence to bring about their goals, we would not hesitate to identify the ideas behind their philosophy that drove them to such ends. Why should we hesitate to confront the fact that these particular killers are driven by their fanatical religious beliefs?

She deftly fielded a question about the “perversion” of Islam by fanatics by proclaiming that she was more concerned about the perversion of the word “liberalism,” because of the willingness of many Western liberals to accept and excuse some of the most heinous criminal acts committed by practitioners of the Muslim faith, like arranged marriages, spousal abuse, subjugation of women by force, denial of education to females, and female genital mutilation in the name of multiculturalism and a so-called “respect” for other civilizations. American liberals, she said, appear to be more uncomfortable condemning the ill treatment of women under Islam than most conservatives are. This led her into a repudiation of multiculturalism, and how, despite some honorable intentions in its origins, it had mutated into a belief system that actually denies access to the freedom and justice guaranteed by the American Constitution by allowing injustice to continue within protected minority communities by not encouraging them to assimilate and become full Americans.

In response to a question about how long America should stay in Iraq and Afghanistan, she said it was her hope that the Americans would stay for 50 or 100 years, if that is how long it took to modernize those societies, even while acknowledging that there did not seem to be the political will for such an effort to be sustained.

The best question of the evening came from a young man who simply asked what would be the best way to bring about an “Enlightenment” in the Muslim world. She replied that the best way would be to ask them questions about their religion and cause “cognitive dissonance” among those who blindly follow the violent exhortations of their imams. I actually laughed out loud when she used those words, as the cognitive dissonance occurring at that moment in the Track 16 gallery was practically audible. I could swear I heard the word “What?!?” thudding over and over again in the formerly comfortable brains of those around me.

The only applause of the night (!) signaled the end of the evening, and as I lined up to have my book signed by Ms. Ali, I was struck by how short the line was. Out of the 150 to 200 people I guessed were in attendance, only about 25 or so lined up to greet this remarkable individual. As I made my way down the line, I passed pockets of fervent discussion, and caught fragments here and there. I overheard one rather agitated gentleman say, “I just think there are problems in this country that she just doesn’t understand! I mean, what’s the difference between a fanatical mass-murdering Taliban regime and a mass-murdering evangelical Christian in the White House, which this country voted in for eight years?!?”

In Nomad, Hirsi Ali states unequivocally that Christianity and Islam are definitely not equivalent, if for no other reason than Christianity’s willingness to tolerate questioning and even blasphemy without issuing death sentences, and actually calls for a “strategic alliance” between secular people –atheists like herself, Richard Dawkins, and others –and Christians in order to combat the oppression inherent in an unenlightened, unreconstructed Islam (Nomad, pp. 240-241). If this man had asked Ms. Ali his ridiculous question, she could have answered it handily. So why didn’t he? Why was he huddled in the farthest corner of the room spewing his nonsense to his nodding compatriots? What about Ayaan Hirsi Ali had flummoxed him and his fellow travellers into circles of insular outrage?

Well, she was black, so they could not dismiss her as a racist; she had lived in Somalia, Saudi Arabia, The Netherlands and the United States, so they could not call her an ignorant provincial hick; she was an avowed atheist, so they could not call her a Christian bigot on a crusade against peaceful Islam; and she was multi-lingual, articulate, and brilliant, so they couldn’t just call her stupid. All the pejoratives they usually apply to people who disagree with them wouldn’t work, and so they were left to confront her ideas, and those ideas stripped them naked, rent their garments of superiority and condescension into tatters at their feet, and left them angry and confused, whining to each other in the corners of the room, unable to say anything to her face. Their favorite weapons, ad hominem name-calling and sneering condescension, were disarmed.

Ms. Ali, flanked by 3 or 4 pleasant-looking but serious suits, a private Secret Service force necessary to protect her from the religion of peace, signed my book as I stammered out an inadequate “Thank you so much for your courage.” She smiled and said, “Thank you very much.”

Not a very scintillating exchange I know, but as I left the gallery that evening, I realized that the real crux of the matter, and the truly paralyzing aspect for the liberals around me, was simply that — her courage. To the Hollywood community, a community that did not even have the courage to list Theo Van Gogh during the 2005 Oscar ceremony as one of the people in film who had died that year, a woman willing to continue espousing her deep convictions after being threatened with death by the same people who had murdered her colleague was utterly confounding. And for someone like me, a person who writes from behind a mask, not even for fear of death but of the economic retribution I might face from the supposedly tolerant community in which I live and work, the evening I spent in a room with Ayaan Hirsi Ali was all the more humbling.


Hollywood coward"

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
In which case Blue, they would have been torturing a dying man. For what, sport?
Either way it is a despicable act of over kill. In fact it's a barbaric act of terrorism!

Get your facts straight. They said the guy was shot in the head at close range (obviously with a sidearm). The video shown was someone resisting and getting pepper-balled. If he already had a headwound, he'd be dead. It obviously is someone else or before he was shot with real ammo.

Again, that video is a misrepresentation of facts and reality. Did Reuters shoot the video?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
"philo, You mean like hanging a seven year old boy for spying like an Islamic group did yesterday."

Fats, what does that have to do with Palestine, Palestinians or Israel's brutal and illegal occupation of Palestine?



"Jun 10, 2010 - 10:58am PT
To stand above an injured man and then finish him off with rounds from an assault rifle can by no ones estimation be described as an act of self-defense.

I thought the rifles were paintball rifles. The sidearms were the only live-ammo guns they took aboard as backups."

You posted it Skip.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
I posted it, not Skipt.

Look at the facts. And watch the Israeli commando re-load in Ahad's video. That ain't a semi-auto rifle!!!!

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 12, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/israel-s-greatest-loss-its-moral-imagination-1.295600

Published 14:02 11.06.10Latest update 14:02 11.06.10
Israel’s Greatest Loss: Its Moral Imagination
If a people who so recently experienced such unspeakable inhumanities cannot understand the injustice and suffering its territorial ambitions are inflicting, what hope is there for the rest of us?

By By Henry Siegman
Following Israel’s bloody interdiction of the Gaza Flotilla, I called a life-long friend in Israel to inquire about the mood of the country. My friend, an intellectual and a kind and generous man, has nevertheless long sided with Israeli hardliners. Still, I was entirely unprepared for his response. He told me—in a voice trembling with emotion—that the world’s outpouring of condemnation of Israel is reminiscent of the dark period of the Hitler era.

He told me most everyone in Israel felt that way, with the exception of Meretz, a small Israeli pro-peace party. “But for all practical purposes,” he said, “they are Arabs.”


Like me, my friend personally experienced those dark Hitler years, having lived under Nazi occupation, as did so many of Israel’s Jewish citizens. I was therefore stunned by the analogy. He went on to say that the so-called human rights activists on the Turkish ship were in fact terrorists and thugs paid to assault Israeli authorities to provoke an incident that would discredit the Jewish state. The evidence for this, he said, is that many of these activists were found by Israeli authorities to have on them ten thousand dollars, “exactly the same amount!” he exclaimed.

When I managed to get over the shock of that exchange, it struck me that the invocation of the Hitler era was actually a frighteningly apt and searing analogy, although not the one my friend intended. A million and a half civilians have been forced to live in an open-air prison in inhuman conditions for over three years now, but unlike the Hitler years, they are not Jews but Palestinians. Their jailers, incredibly, are survivors of the Holocaust, or their descendants. Of course, the inmates of Gaza are not destined for gas chambers, as the Jews were, but they have been reduced to a debased and hopeless existence.

Fully 80% of Gaza’s population lives on the edge of malnutrition, depending on international charities for their daily nourishment. According to the UN and World Health authorities, Gaza’s children suffer from dramatically increased morbidity that will affect and shorten the lives of many of them. This obscenity is a consequence of a deliberate and carefully calculated Israeli policy aimed at de-developing Gaza by destroying not only its economy but its physical and social infrastructure while sealing it hermitically from the outside world.

Particularly appalling is that this policy has been the source of amusement for some Israeli leaders, who according to Israeli press reports have jokingly described it as “putting Palestinians on a diet.” That, too, is reminiscent of the Hitler years, when Jewish suffering amused the Nazis.

Another feature of that dark era were absurd conspiracies attributed to the Jews by otherwise intelligent and cultured Germans. Sadly, even smart Jews are not immune to that disease. Is it really conceivable that Turkish activists who were supposedly paid ten thousand dollars each would bring that money with them on board the ship knowing they would be taken into custody by Israeli authorities?

That intelligent and moral people, whether German or Israeli, can convince themselves of such absurdities (a disease that also afflicts much of the Arab world) is the enigma that goes to the heart of the mystery of how even the most civilized societies can so quickly shed their most cherished values and regress to the most primitive impulses toward the Other, without even being aware they have done so. It must surely have something to do with a deliberate repression of the moral imagination that enables people to identify with the Other’s plight. Pirkey Avot, a collection of ethical admonitions that is part of the Talmud, urges: “Do not judge your fellow man until you are able to imagine standing in his place.”

Of course, even the most objectionable Israeli policies do not begin to compare with Hitler’s Germany. But the essential moral issues are the same. How would Jews have reacted to their tormentors had they been consigned to the kind of existence Israel has imposed on Gaza’s population? Would they not have seen human rights activists prepared to risk their lives to call their plight to the world’s attention as heroic, even if they had beaten up commandos trying to prevent their effort? Did Jews admire British commandos who boarded and diverted ships carrying illegal Jewish immigrants to Palestine in the aftermath of World War II, as most Israelis now admire Israel’s naval commandos?

Who would have believed that an Israeli government and its Jewish citizens would seek to demonize and shut down Israeli human rights organizations for their lack of “patriotism,” and dismiss fellow Jews who criticized the assault on the Gaza Flotilla as “Arabs,” pregnant with all the hateful connotations that word has acquired in Israel, not unlike Germans who branded fellow citizens who spoke up for Jews as “Juden”? The German White Rose activists, mostly students from the University of Munich, who dared to condemn the German persecution of the Jews (well before the concentration camp exterminations began) were also considered “traitors” by their fellow Germans, who did not mourn the beheading of these activists by the Gestapo.

So, yes, there is reason for Israelis, and for Jews generally, to think long and hard about the dark Hitler era at this particular time. For the significance of the Gaza Flotilla incident lies not in the questions raised about violations of international law on the high seas, or even about “who assaulted who” first on the Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, but in the larger questions raised about our common human condition by Israel’s occupation policies and its devastation of Gaza’s civilian population.

If a people who so recently experienced on its own flesh such unspeakable inhumanities cannot muster the moral imagination to understand the injustice and suffering its territorial ambitions—and even its legitimate security concerns—are inflicting on another people, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Henry Siegman, director of the U.S./Middle East Project, is a visiting research professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Program, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. He is a former Senior Fellow on the Middle East at the Council on Foreign Relations and, before that, was national director of the American Jewish Congress from 1978 to 1994.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 12, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
Hey man, this is not ME saying it. It is not Jimmy Carter or Helen Thomas either. It is one of your own. A highly regarded academician and survivor of Nazi germany.
If you don't like it get in one of your mindless miss-direction debates with him not me.

The truth will set you free...
...once you get over your fear of it.



Edit to add;


Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 09:35am PT
President Obama has about eight weeks to get Iran to stop all development or Israel will strike.

The evil one







So Fats as the self proclaimed Oracle of SuperDelphiTopia how did this prognostication turn out?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 12, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
So could Israel.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 12, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
Free SuperTopo get rid of Skipt.
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Jun 12, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
philo- "or Israels brutal and illegal occupation of Palestine?"

??

"I will set your borders from the Red Sea, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates River. For I will place the inhabitants of the land under your control, and you will drive them out ahead of you. You must not make a covenant with them..." Exodus 23:31-32

God keeps His promises(covenants)!

"I will make you into a great nation...I will bless those who bless you, I will curse those who treat you with contempt." Genesis 1:2-3

President Obama(America)take note^^^^^^^^^^!!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 12, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
Blow it out your O-ring TripL7. That "covenant" is a bullshit myth.

You apologists of Israel are so fond of saying that Israel is under a constant threat of annihilation from neighboring countries that have vowed to destroy the Zionist pariah state.

But if you read the babble of the "covenant" you can easilly say the same about the state of Israel. They are commited to the destruction of the Palestinian people.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
The Saudi's have evidently decided that those "Zionists" aren't so bad after all.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7148555.ece
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 12, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-nightmarish-experiment-1.295530

Published 01:18 11.06.10Latest update 01:18 11.06.10
A nightmarish experiment
Israel gave itself a nice present to celebrate the 43rd anniversary of losing its borders. The raid on the Gaza flotilla in international waters is like the first Lebanon War - as if in a nightmarish experiment, we seem to be examining the question: What happens when a country has no borders?

By Sefi Rachlevsky
Tags: Israel news
Israel gave itself a nice present to celebrate the 43rd anniversary of losing its borders. The raid on the Gaza flotilla in international waters is like the first Lebanon War - as if in a nightmarish experiment, we seem to be examining the question: What happens when a country has no borders?


Security fence along the Gaza Strip border

Photo by: IDF Spokespersons' Office
Israel's maritime attack did not happen by chance. A border is one of the fundamental factors that defines a country. Decades without one have distorted Israel's thinking.


It is self-evident that, just as a person cannot build in an area that he does not own, a country cannot build settlements outside of its borders. And yet Israel has settled hundreds of thousands of its citizens in areas that, according to its laws, are not part of the State of Israel.

It is self-evident that any couple can marry "without regard to religion, race or gender." And yet in Israel a Jewish man and a non-Jewish woman cannot legally marry. It's self-evident that there is no arbitrary discrimination, and yet it's enough to use the magic words "I'm a religious woman" or "I'm an ultra-Orthodox man" and the obligation to serve in the military evaporates.

It's self-evident that the education provided to children be based on democracy and equality. And yet in Israel, 52 percent of first-graders defined as Jews study in various religious school systems that teach students things like "You are considered a human being and the other nations of the world are not considered human beings."

They are taught that a non-Jew is not a human being, and that anyone who kills a non-Jew is not supposed to be killed by human hands; that women are inferior, and it is an obligation that males and females be separated; and that secular people, or anyone with secular family members, cannot enter these schools.

It is self-evident that racist education cannot be funded by the government and is illegal. And yet most of the country's first-graders receive such "compulsory education" from their government.

The results of this nightmarish experiment are self-evident. In the most recent elections, 35 percent of voters defined as Jews cast their ballots for avowedly racist parties - Yisrael Beitenu, Shas, National Union and their friends.

Critics in the Israeli media wake up only when mistakes are made. That is why - after initially cheering the declaration that "the flotilla will not pass" - they changed their tune following the imbroglio, turning into advocates of the twisted logic "be smart, not right." But what justice is there in an attack on civilians by soldiers on the open seas?

Like the territories, international waters are not Israel; they are outside its borders. A Turkish ship on the open sea is, in effect, a floating Turkish island. An Israeli attack on such an island is not all that different from sending the Israel Defense Forces to take on demonstrators at the Luxembourg Gardens in Paris. There, too, unpleasant people who are not friends of Israel can sometimes be found.

Turkey, which is a member of NATO, was not in a state of war with Israel before the attack. Attacking its citizens on territory that is by definition Turkish is another expression of the Israeli lunacy that lacks any kind of boundaries.

An attack beyond the border must be reserved for extreme cases involving a military target that represents an entity fighting against the country and when citizens are in danger. But civilian ships, that are not carrying weapons, but are bringing civilian aid to a population that is denied chocolate, toys and notebooks, are not nuclear reactors in Iraq, Syria or Iran.

A person who grows up without external borders tends to create distorted internal borders. That is the reason for the attack on Arab MK Hanin Zuabi and her colleagues. While there were certain Arab public figures who went too far in their statements, joining a civilian aid flotilla is one of those legitimate acts which are supposed to be self-evident.

And yet, what was self-evident became betrayal. And citizenship, one of the unconditional foundations of existence, has turned into something that can be revoked - in this case on the basis of ethnicity, a tactic used in fascist regimes. The street has returned to the atmosphere that prevailed under "responsible" opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu and led to the assassination of prime minister Yitzhak Rabin - and the next murder is in the air.

The Israeli deed at sea is liable to reach The Hague. The problem is that Israel has genuine enemies who want to destroy it. A country that does not do everything in its power to accumulate legitimacy, along with turning Iran into an entity that is losing legitimacy and can therefore become a target of activities to undermine it, is a country losing its basic survival instinct. Without borders, it turns out, you lose even that.

Young Israelis who have grown up without borders are now dancing and singing "In blood and fire we will expel Turkey" and "Mohammed is dead." If this keeps up, Israel will not make it to The Hague. The entity gradually replacing the State of Israel is liable not to exist long enough to get there.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 13, 2010 - 01:07pm PT

JPost.comIsrael

Photo by: Ariel Jerozolimski
Pregnant woman murdered in Ashdod
By YAAKOV LAPPIN
06/13/2010 18:58

Woman stabbed over spilled coffee; doctors try to save baby.


A woman who was eight months pregnant was stabbed to death by her neighbor in Ashdod on Sunday following an argument over spilled
coffee.

Tali Atar, 34, was repeatedly stabbed in the torso and neck by a 38-year-old mother of two who lived one floor below her, police said.

Atar was rushed to the Kaplan Medical Center in Rehovot in critical condition, where doctors battled to save her life and rescue her unborn child.

The baby was rescued by an emergency c-section operation, and is said to be in stable condition, but Atar succumbed to her wounds shortly afterwards, doctors said.

Police arrested the murder suspect after arriving at the building, and say the suspect, a mother of two, has linked herself to the stabbing.

"We arrived at the address after being notified of an incident," Supt. Meital Geref, spokeswoman of Lachish police, told The Jerusalem
Post.

Several reports said the two women had been involved in a long-standing and escalating feud, and that Atar was stabbed after being accused by her neighbor of deliberately spilling coffee outside of the suspect's apartment.

The two women allegedly met at the building's entrance, where the murder suspect produced a knife and proceeded to stab Atar.


"We are at the start of the investigation. We cannot yet confirm that there was a previous feud," Geref said.

She added that police received a report that garbage had been thrown outside of the door of the murder victim on Sunday morning.

"We had no previous complaints of violent incidents," Geref said.

Paramedics described finding Atar lying in a pool of blood outside of the building and commencing immediate attempts to save her life.

Atar, who had three children in addition to the new born baby, worked in a soup kitchen, family members said.

------------------------------


OOOH how very civilized.
If a "GOOD ISRAELI woman and mother is willing to murder another "GOOD ISRAELI" pregnant mother of three over a cup of coffee, no wonder they treat the Palestinians with such barbaric contempt for humanity. I am surprised no one wants to accuse the dead woman of using her baby as a human shield.

The evil violence of the fundamentalist Zionist forces are poisoning the very heart and soul of Israel. Peace will only occur when Israel is reformed.








TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
Philo, to try to use the actions of one obviously mentally ill outlier to justify the insanity of a murderous religious movement only makes you look foolish.




APA-Mogadishu-(Somalia) Islamist militants of the Hezbal Islam rebel group have killed two football fans and arrested ten others after attacking a house where fans were watching the World Cup game between Argentina and Nigeria in the Huruwaa neighborhood north-east of the capital Mogadishu on Saturday.

Residents say that heavily armed militants stormed a house where football fans were secretly watching the match, which has been prohibited in the Islamist-controlled regions in Somalia.

“Two young men who tried to jump over the wall were shot and killed while ten others including my husband and my teenage son were taken to Islamist custody in the village” Halima Ahmed, a mother of five children said in a telephone interview with APA on Sunday morning.

Islamist militia leader Sheikh Mohamed Abu Abdalla said that those in custody have broken the law and will be dealt with in accordance with Islamic law.

Prior to the World Cup opening, the Islamists in Somalia warned people against watching the matches, saying that it was not compatible with Islamic law and that those founding watching football will be brought before Islamic courts.

“Football descended from the old Christian cultures and our Islamic administration will never allow watching it. We are giving our last warning to the people,” Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Iraqi said, while addressing crowds in the Suqa Holaha village north of Mogadishu, hours before the World Cup kick off on Friday.


The president of the Somali Football Federation Said Mahmoud Nur who was reached for comment while in South Africa, declined to comment on the matter because of security reasons.

Meanwhile, residents in the southern Jubba regions have sent a complaint letter to the Al Shabab administration in the regions demanding permission to watch the world’s largest sporting event.

Reports say that representatives from the community including elders went to the Al Shabab administrative office in the southern port town of Kismayo Saturday requesting permission to watch the World Cup, but they were denied and told that they will be arrested if they ever again come with such demands.

In 2006, the Islamic Courts Union who were then controlling most of Somalia banned watching the World Cup, describing football as a “satanic act” and as a result, two football fans were also killed and scores arrested in the city of Dhusamareeb in central Somalia when heavily armed militants raided a cinema where they were watching a World Cup game.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 13, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
Why TGT? You all do that to Arabs all the time.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 13, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
In 2006, the Islamic Courts Union who were then controlling most of Somalia banned watching the World Cup, describing football as a “satanic act”
Well, American football anyway.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 14, 2010 - 11:10am PT
Ha ha ha so phunny Anders.



Hey here is an idea that should appeal to the rabid, right wing, racists of the Republican party;
Forget what Helen Thomas said about Jews going back to where they came from. How about we all just demand that the Palestinians go back to where they came from?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 14, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
"have you turned your house over to the impoverished Native Americans whose land you have stolen?"



Just a little reality check on history.
I did not steal native American lands.
My anscestors hadn't even arrived in this new world by the time most of that land theft occured.
In Palestine however the thievery happens everyday. There are scores of Palestinians who still have keys to homes they were forced out of. Sixty years is different than a few hundred years.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2010 - 08:00am PT
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out."

David Ben Gurion


it got a street named for him in manhattan......
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Jun 15, 2010 - 09:18am PT
Oooops.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 15, 2010 - 10:26am PT
They need REAL food and medicine not junk snack food and sugary sodas. Why should the Palestinians let Israel have a PR bump for passing off junk food to malnourished children?


They won't let wheel chairs in for the amputee children but Doritos and Pepsi are supposed to be excepted with grateful praise. Bollocks!




Sixty years is hugely different than 300 years. Your people constantly slap the world's face with the myth of the covenant from thousands of years ago as what legitimizes their actions in Palestine. As I said before, many of the diss-possessed of the Nakba are still alive. Many of the terrorists of the Irgun and Stern gangs are still alive. The land of the Palestinians is being stolen everyday. There is a huge difference in these two situations.


Last time I checked Chief Ouray and Sitting Bull have been dead and decomposed since long before the founding of the modern State of Israel.

I'll tell you what Jeff, I'll give up my house after Israel gives up the illegal Occupation and make reparations.



philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 15, 2010 - 10:49am PT
Please explain with examples. Then I will counter with equally ugly racism from your side of reality.

What I do is present a counter points to the lies and obfuscation presented by DaftRat and others.
For example Jeff just posted an inflammatory link about the refusal of a load of crap from Israel. He wants to paint the picture that things are not all that bad in Gaza. What he doesn't bother to explain is that it was all empty junk food. That crap is POISON to severely malnourished children.

So you understand the foolishness of your accusation towards me let me explain that I have lots of family and friends that are Jewish. Not one of them would consider me remotely racist even when I present the same arguments to them that I do here on the Forum. It is hard to hear the truth and harder to look in the mirror when you know that what is being done is so wrong. I know it is hard to hear what I have to say but no-one who knows me would have the temerity to call me racist. It is a knee jerk reaction of the simple minded to defend the indefensible.

To your credit you were not stupid enough to attempt to label me an Anti-Semite. That is your domain.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 15, 2010 - 11:05am PT
Care to try to prove that ridiculous ass-ertion Lil Skipper?


Maybe, Skippy, you should educate yourself before you barf your uninformed spew all over the forum.
Are you even aware that the Palestinians ARE Semites?
Which by any realistic definition makes Golda Meir, Moshe Dayan, David Ben-Gurion, Ariel Sharon and NuttyYahoo all Anti-Semites.

And there is loads of proof of their racist intents regarding the Palestinians.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 15, 2010 - 11:18am PT
So, exactly how is supporting the human rights of the Semitic Palestinians anti-Semitic?
Care to join me on my campaign to send the Palestinians back to where they came from?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 15, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
Folks like Skipt jump all over me for being racist or anti-Semitic because of the words that I post.

What's humorous about that is that the bulk of those post are links to Haaretz or other Israeli sources. The words that get me so negatively labeled are the writings of Israeli Peace Activists and Israeli academicians. One of the linked stories that had the mouth breathers frothing for my "tar and feathering" was an impassioned plea for justice in Palestine written by an Israeli octogenarian and survivor of the death camps. She is the one who likened current Jewish tactics and propaganda against the Palestinians to the Nazi methodology of 1939. Her words not mine. Still, the semi-literate wanted my head on a pike for daring to post such hard to face material.




Fats, Skipt knows what the Pope is thinking. Bwahahahahahaha!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 15, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
Time to start a new thread Jeff, this one is taking forever to load, and I noticed that I can often get the days middle east updates here faster than on the new sites cause you folks are digging hard to make your points.

Thank you all for sharing the passion
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 16, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
A new video of the "humanitarian" flotilla...

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=299031&D=2010-06-16&SO=&HC=1
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 16, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
Finally, at least from one corner of academia a small spark of common sense!

http://files.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/Oren_Decision_Document.pdf
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 17, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
Here is what German Jews think.




http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/organizer-of-german-jewish-flotilla-we-aren-t-betraying-israel-1.296724

9:10 17.06.10
Organizer of German Jewish flotilla: We aren't betraying Israel
German Jewish Voice organization plans to send an aid ship to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza in July.

By DPA
Tags: Israel news Jewish world Gaza flotilla
An organization of German Jews that wants to send an aid ship to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza says that its intentions are no betrayal of the Jewish people.

In an interview with the German Press Agency dpa in Berlin, Kate Katzenstein-Leiterer, a leader of the German Jewish Voice organization said instead that they wanted to help preserve the state of Israel by showing that its current policies were wrong.


Israel Navy forces approach one of six ships of an aid flotilla bound for Gaza on May 31, 2010.

Photo by: Reuters

"We want Israel to behave in a way that it can be recognized as a democratic state. Now it is recognized as a criminal state. That is not what we want," she said.

On May 31 nine people were killed when Israeli naval forces boarded ships in a flotilla carrying aid and activists - some of whom Israel says were armed - bound for the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.

The event caused international outrage, and has prompted Iran to say it will send its own fleet, threatening more confrontation in the Mediterranean.

"Some see what we are doing as a betrayal. But the question is, what do they really know about the whole thing. Some people don't want to be educated," Katzenstein-Leiterer said.

Jewish Voice plans to fill at least one vessel with educational materials donated by German schoolchildren for Gazan kids, and sail it from a Mediterranean port in mid-July.

"We don't want any confrontation with the Israeli navy. We have informed the (Israeli) ambassador in Berlin, and if they find it necessary to stop and check us, we will let them do that."

"And when they don't find any material that could be a security risk, we want them to let us go into Gaza. We won't unload our cargo in any Israeli or Egyptian port," she says.

Katzenstein-Leiterer grew up in the former East Germany, to where her committed Communist parents returned after fleeing Hitler's regime in World War II.

Her organization is part of the European Jews for a Just Peace movement, a ten-country peace-activist network.

Jewish Voice in Germany says that it has gathered the funds for its aid ship project from personal donations, loans, and a donation from the Left Party, a small political grouping with strong support in the former East.

"Normal people here don't understand very much what is going on in Israel and Palestine," Katzenstein-Leiterer says.

"The German press doesn't show what is going on. People think all Gazans are terrorists, like West Germans used to think that all East Germans were informers for the Stasi (secret police).

Katzenstein-Leiterer says that her group's stance has caused them to be ostracized by the mainstream German-Jewish community, which numbers a little over 100,000.
"Most of the Jews in Germany are immigrants from the former Soviet Union, and they are not on our side. The other members of the community are not on our side either. They say that everything that Israel does is OK, and they close their eyes to what is going on."

A senior activist in the Jewish Voice movement, Rolf Verleger, was reportedly expelled from his position in the Central Council of Jews in Germany because he initiated a petition saying the 2006 Israeli invasion of Lebanon was "not in our name."

However, Katzenstein-Leiterer says that there are now a small group of German Jews who, despite the weight that Germany's history places on the Jewish community, want to speak out against a Israeli blockade policy - brought in after Hamas took control of the sliver of territory in 2007 - that they see as wrong.

"The whole blockade, the whole siege of Gaza is illegal. It is against international law and human rights," she says.

"We want to deliver musical instruments and school material. The children and deprived of every kind of school material; clothes, shoes, candies. We don't see that that is any kind of safety risk."

On Thursday the Israeli cabinet was expected to make a decision on scrapping the so-called "positive" list of items that they allow into Gaza in favor of a more relaxed "negative" list of prohibited items that could be of use to militants.

"We just see that a Jewish state is occupying Palestine, laying a siege, and depriving children of the things that they need. We as Jews are saying, 'not in our name.' We want to show that there are Jews in the world that are on the side of these deprived people," she says.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 17, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
What the "ultra-orthodox" of Israel are up to, in their resistance to the government:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/06/17/world/middleeast/AP-ML-Israel-Segregated-School.html?hp
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 17, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
Why are they misguided? You mean like the westerners who eventually wised up and boycotted and divested from Apartheid South Africa were misguided?
Does that mean NuttyYahoo is following an infallible moral compass?



Will history see NuttyYahoo as the PT Botha of Palestine?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 17, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
There is no such thing as a clash of civilizations.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 17, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
Sorry, it's pretty clear that radicals, e.g. orthodox Jews, have disproportionate influence over the government of Israel. The settlements policy being a good example.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 18, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/18/trashing-a-freedom-fighter/
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 19, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
Why US troops Fats? Why not send the IDF in?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2010 - 12:11am PT
The conflict with Israel merely serves as an effective cover for the region's collective failure to build stable, just and prosperous societies.
Indirectly, there's some truth to that. Israel, and what to do about it, probably wouldn't even make the top ten list of issues for most middle eastern, Arab, and Muslim countries. Their governments know perfectly well there's damn all they can do about Israel but complain, and use it as a vent for public frustrations. (Might as well complain about the weather.) Their real problems are economic, population, water, resources, growth, over-dependence on oil, and so on.

I suppose Fatty will feel slighted that Israel isn't really considered a serious issue to most middle eastern governments, including Iran, whatever their noisy rhetoric.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 21, 2010 - 10:14am PT
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/21/the-lonesome-death-of-aqsa-parvez/
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 21, 2010 - 11:26am PT
here's the key sentence:

"Yasser Arafat rejected Ehud Barak's famous Camp David offer of 2000 in which Israel offered more than 90% of what the Palestinians had demanded."

read it all...and before you start crying 'racism', remember shelby steele is a black man...and before you start crying 'uncle tom', read the book!



JUNE 21, 2010 Israel and the Surrender of the West

One of the world's oldest stories is playing out before our eyes: The Jews are being scapegoated again.
By SHELBY STEELE

The most interesting voice in all the fallout surrounding the Gaza flotilla incident is that sanctimonious and meddling voice known as "world opinion." At every turn "world opinion," like a school marm, takes offense and condemns Israel for yet another infraction of the world's moral sensibility. And this voice has achieved an international political legitimacy so that even the silliest condemnation of Israel is an opportunity for self-congratulation.

Rock bands now find moral imprimatur in canceling their summer tour stops in Israel (Elvis Costello, the Pixies, the Gorillaz, the Klaxons). A demonstrator at an anti-Israel rally in New York carries a sign depicting the skull and crossbones drawn over the word "Israel." White House correspondent Helen Thomas, in one of the ugliest incarnations of this voice, calls on Jews to move back to Poland. And of course the United Nations and other international organizations smugly pass one condemnatory resolution after another against Israel while the Obama administration either joins in or demurs with a wink.

This is something new in the world, this almost complete segregation of Israel in the community of nations. And if Helen Thomas's remarks were pathetic and ugly, didn't they also point to the end game of this isolation effort: the nullification of Israel's legitimacy as a nation? There is a chilling familiarity in all this. One of the world's oldest stories is playing out before our eyes: The Jews are being scapegoated again.

"World opinion" labors mightily to make Israel look like South Africa looked in its apartheid era—a nation beyond the moral pale. And it projects onto Israel the same sin that made apartheid South Africa so untouchable: white supremacy. Somehow "world opinion" has moved away from the old 20th century view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a complicated territorial dispute between two long-suffering peoples. Today the world puts its thumb on the scale for the Palestinians by demonizing the stronger and whiter Israel as essentially a colonial power committed to the "occupation" of a beleaguered Third World people.

This is now—figuratively in some quarters and literally in others—the moral template through which Israel is seen. It doesn't matter that much of the world may actually know better. This template has become propriety itself, a form of good manners, a political correctness. Thus it is good manners to be outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza, and it is bad manners to be outraged at Hamas's recent attack on a school because it educated girls, or at the thousands of rockets Hamas has fired into Israeli towns—or even at the fact that Hamas is armed and funded by Iran. The world wants independent investigations of Israel, not of Hamas.

One reason for this is that the entire Western world has suffered from a deficit of moral authority for decades now. Today we in the West are reluctant to use our full military might in war lest we seem imperialistic; we hesitate to enforce our borders lest we seem racist; we are reluctant to ask for assimilation from new immigrants lest we seem xenophobic; and we are pained to give Western Civilization primacy in our educational curricula lest we seem supremacist. Today the West lives on the defensive, the very legitimacy of our modern societies requiring constant dissociation from the sins of the Western past—racism, economic exploitation, imperialism and so on.

When the Israeli commandos boarded that last boat in the flotilla and, after being attacked with metal rods, killed nine of their attackers, they were acting in a world without the moral authority to give them the benefit of the doubt. By appearances they were shock troopers from a largely white First World nation willing to slaughter even "peace activists" in order to enforce a blockade against the impoverished brown people of Gaza. Thus the irony: In the eyes of a morally compromised Western world, the Israelis looked like the Gestapo.

This, of course, is not the reality of modern Israel. Israel does not seek to oppress or occupy—and certainly not to annihilate—the Palestinians in the pursuit of some atavistic Jewish supremacy. But the merest echo of the shameful Western past is enough to chill support for Israel in the West.

The West also lacks the self-assurance to see the Palestinians accurately. Here again it is safer in the white West to see the Palestinians as they advertise themselves—as an "occupied" people denied sovereignty and simple human dignity by a white Western colonizer. The West is simply too vulnerable to the racist stigma to object to this "neo-colonial" characterization.

Our problem in the West is understandable. We don't want to lose more moral authority than we already have. So we choose not to see certain things that are right in front of us. For example, we ignore that the Palestinians—and for that matter much of the Middle East—are driven to militancy and war not by legitimate complaints against Israel or the West but by an internalized sense of inferiority. If the Palestinians got everything they want—a sovereign nation and even, let's say, a nuclear weapon—they would wake the next morning still hounded by a sense of inferiority. For better or for worse, modernity is now the measure of man.

And the quickest cover for inferiority is hatred. The problem is not me; it is them. And in my victimization I enjoy a moral and human grandiosity—no matter how smart and modern my enemy is, I have the innocence that defines victims. I may be poor but my hands are clean. Even my backwardness and poverty only reflect a moral superiority, while my enemy's wealth proves his inhumanity.

In other words, my hatred is my self-esteem. This must have much to do with why Yasser Arafat rejected Ehud Barak's famous Camp David offer of 2000 in which Israel offered more than 90% of what the Palestinians had demanded. To have accepted that offer would have been to forgo hatred as consolation and meaning. Thus it would have plunged the Palestinians—and by implication the broader Muslim world—into a confrontation with their inferiority relative to modernity. Arafat knew that without the Jews to hate an all-defining cohesion would leave the Muslim world. So he said no to peace.

And this recalcitrance in the Muslim world, this attraction to the consolations of hatred, is one of the world's great problems today—whether in the suburbs of Paris and London, or in Kabul and Karachi, or in Queens, N.Y., and Gaza. The fervor for hatred as deliverance may not define the Muslim world, but it has become a drug that consoles elements of that world in the larger competition with the West. This is the problem we in the West have no easy solution to, and we scapegoat Israel—admonish it to behave better—so as not to feel helpless. We see our own vulnerability there.

Mr. Steele is a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 21, 2010 - 11:31am PT
Certainly well written Bookworm, but this is a much more complex story than that short piece could start to define.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 21, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
Arafat was a toad. At least he made his wife a rich widow from the money he collected.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 21, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
scotus gets one right:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_supreme_court_anti_terror_law
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 21, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
ok, fat, here's why we (well, at least, israel) will win the clash:

http://www.latma.co.il/Latma/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=2&TMID=99&FID=469&PlayListId=8B99644BD8FE4070


(click on the vid)
dirtbag

climber
Jun 21, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
There is no such thing as a clash of civilizations.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 21, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
Bay Area idiots...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138178
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 21, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
So Evil one, you never told me what made the German Jews, who were taking an humanitarian aid boat to Gaza, misguided. Care to explain? Why would they be wrong?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 21, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
"There is no such thing as a clash of civilizations."


actually, dirt, you're right because barry doesn't believe in civilizations (i.e. plural); he believes in a "world community" and thinks we should all be "citizens of the world"...despite the fact that all his speech-making has accomplished jack

well, i don't want to be a citizen of a world that promotes female genital mutilation or honor killings for daughters who shame their families by being the victims of rape or decide they want to drive and vote and get an education and wear pants...i don't want to be a citizen of a world that hangs homosexuals or stones adulteresses or executes anyone who converts from islam to christianity...i don't want to be a citizen of a world that produces children's tv programs that promote hatred of jews and suicide bombings and that openly claims,
"you value life, but we value death" or thinks it's cute to dress children in toy bomb vests...i don't want to be a citizen of a world that glorifies murdering civilians by decapitating them or having children decapitate them and then releasing videotape of the savagery

i guess barry thinks we're all equal or that america is worse...apparently, do do you
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 21, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
Listen up Dummies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMs6-YeUQMM&feature=related
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 21, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
Ah, but one more absurdity from the "religion of peas"

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/06/21/%E2%80%98three-ladies%E2%80%99-removal-irks-harapan-indah-residents.html
dirtbag

climber
Jun 22, 2010 - 12:00am PT
There is no such thing as a clash of civilizations."


actually, dirt, you're right because barry doesn't believe in civilizations (i.e. plural); he believes in a "world community" and thinks we should all be "citizens of the world"...despite the fact that all his speech-making has accomplished jack

well, i don't want to be a citizen of a world that promotes female genital mutilation or honor killings for daughters who shame their families by being the victims of rape or decide they want to drive and vote and get an education and wear pants...i don't want to be a citizen of a world that hangs homosexuals or stones adulteresses or executes anyone who converts from islam to christianity...i don't want to be a citizen of a world that produces children's tv programs that promote hatred of jews and suicide bombings and that openly claims,
"you value life, but we value death" or thinks it's cute to dress children in toy bomb vests...i don't want to be a citizen of a world that glorifies murdering civilians by decapitating them or having children decapitate them and then releasing videotape of the savagery

i guess barry thinks we're all equal or that america is worse...apparently, do do you

Um...do you have a point?

And do do to you too!
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2010 - 06:58am PT
http://pulsemedia.org/2010/06/19/the-lethal-dove/
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 22, 2010 - 07:27am PT
from mark steyn:


Thanks to the wonders of globalization, I’m writing this in a fairly decrepit salon de thé off the rue de la Liberté in Tangiers, enjoying a coffee and a stale croissant grilled and flattened into a panini. What could be more authentically Moroccan? For some reason, the napkins are emblazoned with “Gracias por su visita.”

Through a blizzard of flies, I can just about make out the plasma TV up in the corner on which Jimmy Carter, dubbed into Arabic, is denouncing Israel. Al Jazeera doesn’t so much cover the Zionist Entity as feast on it, hour after hour, without end. So here, at the western frontier of the Muslim world (if you don’t include Yorkshire), the only news that matters is from a tiny strip of land barely wider at its narrowest point than a rural Canadian township way down the other end of the Mediterranean.


Notwithstanding saturation coverage of the “Massacre In The Med” (as the front page headline in Britain’s Daily Mirror put it), there are other Jewish stories in the news. This one caught my eye in Canada’s Shalom Life: “No danger to the Jewish cemeteries in Tangiers.” Apparently, the old Jewish hospital in this ancient port city was torn down a couple of months back, and the Moroccan Jewish diaspora back in Toronto worried that their graveyards might be next on the list. Not to worry, Abraham Azancot assured Shalom Life readers. The Jewish cemetery on the rue du Portugal is perfectly safe. “Its sanctity has consistently been respected by the local government that is actually providing the community with resources to assist in its current grooming.”

Sounds great. Being in the neighbourhood, I thought I’d swing by and check out the “current grooming.” It’s kind of hard to spot unless you’re consciously looking for it: two solid black metal gates off a steep, narrow street where the rue du Portugal crosses the rue Salah Dine, and only the smallest of signs to indicate what lies behind. On pushing open the gate and squeezing through, I was greeted by a pair of long underwear, flapping in the breeze. In Haiti, this would be some voodoo ritual, alerting one to go no further. But in Tangiers it was merely wash day, and laundry lines dangled over the nearest graves. If you happen to be Ysaac Benzaquen (died 1921) or Samuel Maman (died 1925), it is your lot to spend eternity with the groundskeeper’s long johns. Pace Mr. Azancot, there is no sense of “sanctity” or “community”: as the underwear advertises, this is no longer a public place, merely a backyard that happens to have a ton of gravestones in it. I use the term “groundskeeper” but keeping the grounds doesn’t seem to be a priority: another row of graves was propping up piles of logs he was busy chopping out of hefty tree trunks. Beyond that, chickens roamed amidst burial plots strewn with garbage bags, dozens of old shoes, and hundreds of broken bottles.

It’s prime real estate, with a magnificent view of the Mediterranean, if you don’t mind the trash and the stench and the chickensh#t, and you tiptoe cautiously around the broken glass. I wandered past the graves: Jacob Cohen, Samuel J. Cohen, Samuel M. Cohen . . . Lot of Cohens here over the years. Not anymore. In one isolated corner, six young men—des musulmans, naturellement—watched a seventh lightly scrub a tombstone, as part of a make-work project “providing the community with resources to assist in its current grooming.”

What “community”? By 2005, there were fewer than 150 Jews in Tangiers, almost all of them very old. By 2015, it is estimated that there will be precisely none. Whenever I mention such statistics to people, the reaction is a shrug: why would Jews live in Morocco anyway? But in 1945 there were some 300,000 in this country. Today some 3,000 Jews remain—i.e., about one per cent of what was once a large and significant population. That would be an unusual demographic reconfiguration in most countries: imagine if Canada’s francophone population or Inuit population were today one per cent of what it was in 1945. But it’s not unusual for Jews. There are cemeteries like that on the rue du Portugal all over the world, places where once were Jews and now are none. I mentioned only last week that in the twenties, Baghdad was 40 per cent Jewish. But you could just as easily cite Czernowitz in the Bukovina, now part of Ukraine. “There is not a shop that has not a Jewish name painted above its windows,” wrote Sir Sacheverell Sitwell, visiting the city in 1937. Not today. As in Tangiers, the “community” resides in the cemetery.

You can sense the same process already under way in, say, London, the 13th-biggest Jewish city in the world, but one with an aging population; and in Malmö, Sweden, where a surge in anti-Semitism from, ahem, certain quarters has led Jewish residents to abandon the city for Stockholm and beyond; and in Odense, Denmark, where last year superintendent Olav Nielsen announced he would no longer admit Jewish children to the local school. The Jewish presence almost anywhere on the map is as precarious as, to coin a phrase, a fiddler on the roof. And Israel’s enemies are determined that the biggest Jewish community of all should be just as precarious and prove just as impermanent.

In 1936, during the Cable Street riots, the British Union of Fascists jeered at London Jews, “Go back to Palestine!”, “Palestine” being in those days the designation for the Jewish homeland. Last week, Helen Thomas, the doyenne of the White House press corps, jeered at today’s Jews, “Get the hell out of Palestine,” “Palestine” being now the designation for the land illegally occupied by the Jewish apartheid state. “Go home,” advised Miss Thomas, “to Poland and Germany.” Wherever a Jew is, whatever a Jew is, he should be something else somewhere else. And then he can be hated for that, too.

North Korea sinks a South Korean ship; hundreds of thousands of people die in the Sudan; millions die in the Congo. But 10 men die at the hands of Israeli commandos and it dominates the news day in, day out for weeks, with UN resolutions, international investigations, calls for boycotts, and every Western prime minister and foreign minister expected to rise in parliament and express the outrage of the international community.
Odd. But why?

Because Israel is supposed to be up for grabs in a way that the Congo, Sudan or even North Korea aren’t. Only the Jewish state attracts an intellectually respectable movement querying its very existence, and insisting that, after 62 years of independence, that issue is still not resolved. Let’s take a nation that came into existence at precisely the same time as the Zionist Entity, and involved far bloodier population displacements. I happen to think the creation of Pakistan was the greatest failure of postwar British imperial policy. But the fact is that Pakistan exists, and if I were to launch a movement of anti-Pakism it would get pretty short shrift, and in Canada a “human rights” complaint or three.

The “Palestinian question” is a land dispute, but not in the sense of a boundary-line argument between two Ontario farmers. Rather, it represents the coming together of two psychoses. Islam is a one-way street. Once you’re in the Dar al-Islam, that’s it; there’s no checkout desk. They take land, they hold it, forever.

That’s why, in his first post-9/11 message to the troops, Osama droned on about the fall of Andalusia: it’s been half a millennium, but he still hasn’t gotten over it, and so, a couple of years ago, when I was at the Pentagon being shown some of the maps found in al-Qaeda safe houses, “the new caliphate” had Spain and India being re-incorporated within the Muslim world. If that’s how you think, no wonder a tiny little sliver of a Jewish state smack dab in the heart of the Dar al-Islam drives you nuts: to accept Israel’s “right to exist” would be as unthinkable as accepting a re-Christianized Constantinople.

To this fierce Islamic imperialism, the new Europeans, post-Christian, post-nationalist and postmodern as they are, nevertheless bring one of their oldest prejudices—that in the modern world as much as in medieval Christendom Jews can never be accorded full property rights. On a patch of the Holy Land, they are certainly the current leaseholders, but they will never have recognized legal title. To be sure, there are a lot of them there right now. But then there were a lot of them in Tangiers and Baghdad and the Bukovina and Germany and Poland, for a while. Why shouldn’t Tel Aviv one day be just another city with some crumbling cemeteries and a few elderly Jews?

That’s the reason the “Palestinian question” is never settled. Because, as long as it’s unresolved, then Israel’s legitimacy is unsettled, too.

Still, the impatience of the new globalized Judenhass is now palpable. I used to think that, when Iran got the bomb, it wouldn’t use it. I wouldn’t take that bet now. The new anti-Semitism is a Euro-Islamic fusion so universal, so irrational and so fevered that it’s foolish to assume any limits.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 22, 2010 - 10:24am PT
Apparently Mark Steyn had no clue of the danger he had put himself in by frequenting un salon de thé that advertised their political sympathies with the sarcastic message “Gracias por su visita.” They are obviously supporters of the Polisario Front!

The Clash is omnipresent!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 22, 2010 - 10:52am PT
What about the flotilla of, as you called them (without explanation I must add) misguided, German Jews? They have told their embassy and the Israeli Government that they are going to Gaza and will not unload at any port in Israel or Egypt. Act of war?
Hey Fatty, do you suppose the Joint Chiefs have a contingency plan for invading and occupying Israel should they deem them to have gone too rouge? Historically American allies, puppets, vassal states and treatied peoples have not fared well when the US losses patience or determines them unreliable. Hhhmmm, just a thought.

Nothing personal Fats, it'd be just business after all.
You know, just a Cost / Benefit analysis.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 22, 2010 - 10:58am PT
Except when they encounter resistant kids and old people with sticks and stones.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 22, 2010 - 11:18am PT
Practice for Iran and Syria?
http://www.debka.com/article/8866/


Also, Fatty, they may need decoy Jews with LEO training in Holland.
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_central_southern_az/other/terrorists-crossing-az-border-into-u.s.%3F
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 22, 2010 - 11:48am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-silent-expulsion-1.297577
Published 01:53 22.06.10Latest update 01:53 22.06.10
The silent expulsion
Citizens of Israel can leave the country for any length of time, and their citizenship and all their rights are theirs in perpetuity. But when it comes to Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem, Israel applies draconian regulations whose covert intent is to bring about the expulsion of as many Palestinians as possible from their home city.

Haaretz Editorial
Dr. Immad Hammada and Dr. Murad Abu-Khalaf are both lecturers in electrical engineering born in East Jerusalem. Their families have lived in the city for generations. They both left years ago, each one separately, to study in the United States, and after graduating and consolidating their careers they want to return to live in their home town.

But their right to be reunified with their families is being denied by the Interior Ministry, as Amira Hass reported in Sunday's Haaretz. Hammada has been living in his city for some three years illegally, without any rights and under constant danger of being arrested and deported, while Abu-Khalaf is finding it difficult to return, even for a visit.


Judge Noam Sohlberg of Jerusalem District Court is hearing their cases against the ministry this week.

Interior Ministry regulations provide for the abrogation of the rights of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem who leave the city for a period of over seven years. Citizens of Israel can leave the country for any length of time, and their citizenship and all their rights are theirs in perpetuity. But when it comes to Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem, Israel applies draconian regulations whose covert intent is to bring about the expulsion of as many Palestinians as possible from their home city.

This situation is intolerable: At a time when the prime minister speaks grandiloquently of the reunification of Jerusalem, Israel practices inequality and discriminates against the city's Arab residents. At a time when Benjamin Netanyahu speaks of the economic advancement of the territories, Israel prevents the Arab residents of East Jerusalem from advancing their careers abroad and returning afterward to their home city to contribute toward the development of its economy. The screws have been tightened in recent years: In 2008 the residents' rights of 4,557 Palestinian inhabitants of the city were abrogated, the highest number ever.

Waiting on Judge Sohlberg now is not only the fate of two electrical engineering lecturers, but a far weightier question: Will Israel continue treating the Palestinian inhabitants of its capital as if they were foreign migrants whose rights are conditional?

The rights of the Palestinian residents of Jerusalem must be equal to those of Jews. All Jerusalemites have the right to live in their city, to go abroad and return as they will, without any danger posed by the authorities lying in wait for them.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
""The finest fighting force in the world........ The Israelis"."



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/in-desperate-search-for-recruits-israeli-army-targets-foreigners-2004793.html?action=Popup&gallery=no


proudly serving their country....
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 22, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
Whoa!! On the actor's weighing in on the political front, John Voight wades right in to the clash and body slams the President.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/22/dear-mr-president-jon-voight/

"Dear Mr. President ... from Jon Voight

By Jon Voight

An open letter from actor Jon Voight to President Obama:

June 22, 2010

President Obama:

You will be the first American president that lied to the Jewish people, and the American people as well, when you said that you would defend Israel, the only Democratic state in the Middle East, against all their enemies. You have done just the opposite. You have propagandized Israel, until they look like they are everyone's enemy — and it has resonated throughout the world. You are putting Israel in harm's way, and you have promoted anti-Semitism throughout the world.

You have brought this to a people who have given the world the Ten Commandments and most laws we live by today. The Jewish people have given the world our greatest scientists and philosophers, and the cures for many diseases, and now you play a very dangerous game so you can look like a true martyr to what you see and say are the underdogs. But the underdogs you defend are murderers and criminals who want Israel eradicated.

You have brought to Arizona a civil war, once again defending the criminals and illegals, creating a meltdown for good, loyal, law-abiding citizens. Your destruction of this country may never be remedied, and we may never recover. I pray to God you stop, and I hope the people in this great country realize your agenda is not for the betterment of mankind, but for the betterment of your politics.

With heartfelt and deep concern for America and Israel,

Jon Voight"
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 23, 2010 - 09:10am PT
ok, people, move along...no "clash of civilizations" to be seen here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-06-22-Saudi_N.htm?csp=34news


yep, their "civilization" is just like ours; we're all "equal"
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 23, 2010 - 09:26am PT
OMG what will we do now the Repugs are pulling out actors.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 23, 2010 - 09:33am PT
Your destruction of this country may never be remedied, and we may never recover.

What a f*#king idiot. No wonder Angelina hates her old man.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 23, 2010 - 11:32am PT
So we can add Jon Voight to the list of people, like FatTrad, who believe that all US domestic and foreign policy should revolve around Israel.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 23, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/belgian-lawyers-to-charge-barak-and-livni-for-war-crimes-1.297920


Published 19:27 23.06.10Latest update 19:27 23.06.10
Belgian lawyers to charge Barak and Livni for war crimes
Two Belgian lawyers, working on behalf of a group of Palestinians, plan to charge 14 Israeli politicians, including Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni and Matan Vilnai, for crimes against humanity and war crimes.

By Danna Harman
Tags: Israel news Ehud Barak Ehud Olmert Gaza
LONDON - Two Belgian lawyers announced on Wednesday that, working on behalf of a group of Palestinians - including, significantly, one who is a Belgian national - they were intending to charge 14 Israeli politicians, including Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni and Matan Vilnai, for crimes against humanity and war crimes.

The lawyers, Georges-Henri Beauthier and Alexis Deswaef said they were acting on behalf of 13 Palestinian victims from Gaza, and an additional man - Anouar El Okka, a Belgian doctor of Palestinian origin.


The current charges would be brought against the Israeli leaders using the principle of universal jurisdiction, the lawyers said - and would focus on alleged crimes, including the use of phosperous, committed during the Israeli bombardment of Gaza in January 2009.


Defense Minister Ehud Barak.

Photo by: Tomer Appelbaum
In Belgian, the law states that there must be a connection between the crimes and a Belgian citizen in order to successfully prosecute under universal jurisdiction - something El Okka would supply.

This is not the first time the Belgian system has been asked to charge Israeli with such offenses. Just last year, Belgian attorneys, acting on behalf of Belgian nationals with relatives who were wounded or killed in Gaza, petitioned a court there to arrest then Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni upon her arrival in Brussels. However, in that case it seems the connection between the victims and Belgium was not strong enough to follow through with the case.

The most famous case to date involving Belgium and Israel was in 2001 when there was a criminal complaint in Belgium on behalf of 21 survivors of the 1982 massacre at the Shabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. The then Israeli Defense Minister (Ariel Sharon) and members of the Lebanese Christian militia were charged with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. It was after this case that the law was changed to include a clause about a Belgian connection.

This was far from the only negative attention to Israel in Europe this week.

In Strasbourg on Wednesday, the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly was expected to issue a condemnation of Israel’s behavior over the flotilla events and call for an independent international investigation.

The President of the council Mehemet Kavasgholu, a Turk, told a Turkish newspaper last week that he would not only demand such an investigation but would also set up the investigation under the council’s auspices, something that lies within their mandate.

MK Yochanan Plezner, chair of the permanent Israeli delegation to the Council said yesterday that he and his team were hoping to avoid such an outcome.

“They will no doubt condemn Israel but our goal is to ensure that an independent international inquiry is not established, and that the council makes do with the Israeli commission,” he said.

Plezner added that it is very clear the mood in Europe was increasingly unfavorable to Israel.

“There is definitely a more critical mood and we see this mainly with out friends and allies who are less willing to stand alongside us,” he said. “And, our foes are becoming more adept at exploiting the liberal discourse against Israel....so it is becoming less politically correct to support of stand by Israel.”

In Sweden meanwhile, dockworkers launched a week-long boycott of cargo to and from Israel to protest the flotilla episode. About 1,500 members of the Swedish Dockworkers Union began the boycott on Tuesday across the country's ports, which handle more than 95 per cent of Sweden's foreign trade.

Bjoern Borg, the dockworkers union's chairman, said they were calling for an international investigation into the May 31 raid and added Israel's recent easing of its Gaza blockade was insufficient.

"We don't think it is far-reaching enough," he said. "We want them to lift the blockade."
dirtbag

climber
Jun 23, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
I'm surprised you haven't started a new C of C thread.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 23, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
"So we can add Jon Voight to the list of people, like FatTrad, who believe that all US domestic and foreign policy should revolve around Israel."

well, it's got to revolve around SOMETHING so, in a sense, yes


let's imagine a world without israel (i.e. eliminate the israeli government, allow palestinian 'refugees' to return, and hold new elections for a new nation)...now what would that look like?

1. of course, first comes the bloodbath as palestinians seek their revenge

2. of course, second comes the next bloodbath as the various palestinian factions erupt in civil war

3. maybe three years before the lush, vibrant former nation of israel is just a memory as infrastructure collapses from neglect; fertile fields left fallow are consumed by the desert that the JOOOOOOOOOS previously turned into a land of milk and honey; and the immense wealth of the israelis is wasted on bombs and burkas

4. neighboring nations, seeing an opportunity not to be wasted in the palestinian crisis, sweep in to reclaim lands "stolen" from them by the un in '48

5. war threatens to erupt as egypt, jordan, syria, and lebanon dispute borders

6. on a positive note, iran, no longer threatened by the JOOOOOOOOOS, dismantles its nuclear arsenal, converts all reactors to purely energy production, adopts a more secular worldview, rejoins the community of nations, increases oil exports to lower prices and ease the ongoing financial crisis, and becomes a leader in promoting human rights sdcf mop hahahahahahahahahahahaha...i'm sorry, i can't keep that up...ok, ok, really

6. iran, no longer able to use the JOOOOOOOOOOOOS as justification for its international belligerence, instead, recalls its glory days under cyrus and darius when the persians ruled the world and finds a new satan in the sunnis and announces that its missiles are now aimed at saudi arabia and demands restitution for the saudis' collaboration with the real satan

7. russia, understanding perfectly the teeth in iran's bark and with absolute confirmation of the saudis' isolation--since america allowed the only free democratic nation in the region to be consumed--puts the squeeze on eastern europe by slowing the flow of natural gas, signs a mutual protection treaty with iran trading munitions technology for oil, and begins to "persuade" former soviet bloc nations to return to the fold

8. barry goes golfing (please note how i kindly gave barry a second terms because he's just so likable)


and on a previous run: i certainly don't mind a president taking a vacation, especially because i understand the president's vacations are working vacations...however, barry has played 39 rounds of golf in his first 18 months in office; bush played only 24 rounds in his first EIGHT YEARS!!!!!!!

barry goes on national tv to claim that the oil spill is as significant as 9/11 and then goes golfing the NEXT DAY???????


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 23, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
Like everything else Bush sucked at golf.



BrainWorm you are a pip. A deluded myopic pip.

By the way dreamer, the Jews didn't turn anything into milk and honey. They took the milk and honey when they took the land (and the water).

Palestine was a net exporter of agricultural goods looooooong before 1948.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 23, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
right, philo, your beloved un took prime real estate from a bunch of people who productive stewards of the land and gave it to a bunch of whiny bloodsucking joooooooooos


maybe dirt is right about there being no "clash" because it appears we've already lost:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026594.php


so when are the lib jesus haters going to start railing about the invidious influence of islam?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jun 23, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
Palestine was a net exporter of agricultural goods looooooong before 1948.

Do you have a reliable source for that data?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 24, 2010 - 08:43am PT
definition of a christian martyr: a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.


definition of a muslim martyr: a person who willingly suffers death in order to murder innocent women and children


here is the "civilization" that philo praises so highly and that dirt believes is equal to our own:

http://www.nationalreview.com/the-feed/230221/catchy-tune-palestinian-kids-sing-when-we-die-martyrs
dirtbag

climber
Jun 24, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
maybe dirt is right about there being no "clash" because it appears we've already lost:

I say there is no clash because in fact there is no clash.

Islam has a problem with extremism, which is our problem now too. But that is not a clash between civilizations; if anything it is a clash with a faction.

Iran for example. The populace is not friendly to the extremist faction in control. The bulk of that civilization is not interested in a clash, so long as western powers like the US don't do something stupid like mettle, which is one of the reasons they hate us in first place (think back to the mettling that put the Shah in power; they remember that shit).

It's a simple lesson that for some reason we have a hard time learning.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 24, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
here is the "civilization" that philo praises so highly and that dirt believes is equal to our own:

Putting words into my mouth now? Did I ever say such a thing?

(No, I never said anything like that.)


Jackass.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 24, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
"Islam has a problem with extremism, which is our problem now too. But that is not a clash between civilizations; if anything it is a clash with a faction."

which is to say, we shouldn't blame all of the nice germans for standing idly by as trainloads of jews rolled away to "work camps" never to return...not even the germans try that ridiculous argument, which is why it's illegal for germans to deny the holocaust


and i never hear libs decry specific "factions" of christianity when a single person murders an abortion doctor or protests homosexuality at funerals for american soldiers killed in combat...nope, it's always "christians"

i've heard some say that "radical islam" accounts for only 10% of muslims...well, there are a BILLION muslims in this world, which makes 100 MILLION suicide murderers (and 900 million more potential radicals); not only are the 90% overwhelmingly silent about the "faction" giving a bad name to the "religion of peace" but even more frightening is the number of libs (like barry's ag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOQt_mP6Pgg ) who refuse to even acknowledge the threat of a "faction" numbering 100 million...or the number of libs who so eagerly decry "christian" bigotry but have not even a word of criticism for muslims who execute homosexuals or mutilate their daughters genitals (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-20/ayaan-hirsi-ali-on-injustice-of-female-genital-mutilation/); or murder their daughters for "honor" (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24329 ) or murder american soldiers on american soil...rather, libs seem more concerned about not "offending" the "muslim world"; of course, libs aren't worried about offending christians because even libs understand christians are not a threat

do you believe that if the "faction" succeeds in their goal of a global caliphate that the 900 million peaceful muslims will finally decide to resist? they won't because they'll be too busy trying to kill each other to determine whether the caliphate is sunni or shia

did you read the article (see my post above)about christians who were arrested for distributing bibles near a muslim organized event? that's a violation of their first amendment rights...did you hear about it on nbc, abc, cbs, msnbc, cnn? do you even care?

i've said before that the clash isn't really with a foreign civilization but within our own civilization thanks to people like philo who believe america is the evil empire (with israel as our evil henchman) and dirt who believe there's no cause for concern (thanks for clarifying your position, dirt) even when american citizen members of the muslim "faction" are committing these atrocities on american soil
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
There is no serious strategic islamic threat to the US outside of the minds of rightwing drama queens. In reality islam would itself collapse under a shia / sunni war before you could say 'caliphate'. The only credible strategic threat is the Chinese who we have completely ignored while tilting so many dustdevils in the desert and draining our economy to do it.

You want to stop MidEast-sourced terrorism? Then solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem - everything else (like Afghanistan and Iraq) are lame attempts to workaround THE only MidEast problem that counts.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 24, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
and dirt who believe there's no cause for concern (thanks for clarifying your position, dirt)


Once again, I NEVER said that. I said Islam has a problem with an extremist faction which is now our problem too. How does that = "no cause for concern "?

A "Clash of Civilizations"implies that there are intractable, civilization-wide differences making conflict inevitiable. There is no such thing, though neocons love it as a narrative.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 24, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
well, there are a BILLION muslims in this world, which makes 100 MILLION suicide murderers

If there were even a million suicide murderers we would all be dead by now.

Jeez, you really believe this stuff?

Edit: and sh#t, what a rant you started.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
No, they wouldn't. It would all be muslim-on-muslim action and we would be peripheral to that conflict rather than central to it as we are so long as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict continues unabated on our dime.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 24, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
solve the conflict? easy, let the palestinians know that america will support ANY action israel deems necessary to deal with hamas...why don't we hear anything about the west bank anymore? because they have realized cooperating with israel leads to a good life for all...think israel is evil? ask the nearly one million ARABS who are citizens of israel


actually, dirt, i was using other people's statistics who try to MINIMIZE the threat with their 10% assertion...and when 900 million "peaceful muslims" allow a 10% minority to dominate their religion then there is a "civilization-wide" difference that has already led to conflict...how do you think the nazis took over germany? how do you think the taliban took over afghanistan? how do you think the ayatollahs took over iran? how do you think a nation as westernized as saudi arabia still suffers under morality police? how do you think hamas is able to control gaza? ALL are/were "factions"

look at what a "faction" can do: http://www.wikio.com/video/die-martyrs-3492393

where is the outrage from the 90% of "peaceful" muslims? or american libs for that matter?

ok, perhaps you think, "they're just kids; they don't know what they're syaing"...well who's going to teach them to think differently? the same "peaceful" parents who videotaped their adorable kids and proudly posted the video on youtube? and what happens when the children are indoctrinated this way? if these were christian children, i'm sure you libs would be screaming about 'nazi youth'

so here's somebody older...a college student...receiving her education at an AMERICAN university:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSvyv0urTE

she claims if she supports hamas, even in speech only, she'll be arrested by homeland security...what do you think she might suffer if she were to pbulicly condemn hamas? i'd say her reference to the "cross" would be far more likely
dirtbag

climber
Jun 24, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
actually, dirt, i was using other people's statistics who try to MINIMIZE the threat with their 10% assertion...and when 900 million "peaceful muslims" allow a 10% minority to dominate their religion then there is a "civilization-wide" difference that has already led to conflict...how do you think the nazis took over germany? how do you think the taliban took over afghanistan? how do you think the ayatollahs took over iran? how do you think a nation as westernized as saudi arabia still suffers under morality police? how do you think hamas is able to control gaza? ALL are/were "factions"

That's not a clash of civilizations. It is an extremist problem.

And again, if 10% were actual suicide bombers we'd all be dead.

But if you want a war then such talk works wonders for scaring people into one. It worked 7 years ago.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 24, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
I haven't seen that.

But in another recent "poll" taken last June most Iranians rejected the hardline conservative government. At least until/if we ever bomb them.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 25, 2010 - 09:57am PT
pay close attention to paragraph 13, dirt:


June 25, 2010 12:01 A.M.
Faisal Shahzad, Jihadi, Explains Terrorism

Shahzad’s testimony undermines Obama’s efforts to ignore the dangers of Islamism and jihad.

Jaw-dropping court testimony by Faisal Shahzad, the would-be Times Square bomber, single-handedly undermines Obama-administration efforts to ignore the dangers of Islamism and jihad.

Shahzad’s forthright statement of purpose stands out because jihadis, when facing legal charges, typically save their skin by pleading not guilty or plea bargaining. Consider a few examples:

Naveed Haq, who assaulted the Jewish Federation building in Seattle, pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

Lee Malvo, one of the Beltway snipers, explained that “one reason for the shootings was that white people had tried to harm Louis Farrakhan.” His partner, John Allen Muhammad, claimed his innocence all the way to the death chamber.

Hasan Akbar killed two fellow American soldiers as they slept in a military compound, then told the court, “I want to apologize for the attack that occurred. I felt that my life was in jeopardy, and I had no other options. I also want to ask you for forgiveness.”

Mohammed Taheri-azar, who tried to kill students at the University of North Carolina by running over them in a car and issued a series of jihadi rants against the United States, later experienced a change of heart, announced himself “very sorry” for the crimes he had committed, and asked for release so that he could “re-establish [himself] as a good, caring and productive member of society” in California.

These efforts fit a broader pattern of Islamist mendacity; rarely does a jihadi stand on principle. Zacarias Moussaoui, 9/11’s would-be 20th hijacker, came close: His court proceedings began with his refusing to enter a plea (which the presiding judge translated into “not guilty”) and then, one fine day, he pleaded guilty to all charges.

Shahzad, 30, acted in an exceptional manner during his appearance in a New York City federal court on June 21. His answers to Judge Miriam Goldman Cedarbaum’s many questions (“And where was the bomb?” “What did you do with the gun?”) offered a dizzying mix of deference and contempt. On one hand, he politely, calmly, patiently, fully, and informatively answered questions about his actions. On the other, he in the same voice justified his attempt at cold-blooded mass murder.

After Shahzad announced an intent to plead guilty to all ten counts of his indictment, the judge asked him: “Why do you want to plead guilty?” — a reasonable question given the near certainty that guilty pleas will keep him in jail for long years. He replied:

I want to plead guilty and I’m going to plead guilty a hundred times forward because — until the hour the U.S. pulls it forces from Iraq and Afghanistan and stops the drone strikes in Somalia and Yemen and in Pakistan and stops the occupation of Muslim lands and stops killing the Muslims and stops reporting the Muslims to its government — we will be attacking [the] U.S., and I plead guilty to that.

Shahzad insisted on portraying himself as replying to American actions: “I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing [of] the Muslim nations and the Muslim people, and on behalf of that, I’m avenging the attacks,” adding that “we Muslims are one community.” Nor was that all; he flatly asserted that his goal had been to damage buildings and “injure people or kill people” because “one has to understand where I’m coming from, because . . . I consider myself a mujahid, a Muslim soldier.”

When Cedarbaum pointed out that pedestrians in Times Square during the early evening of May 1 were not attacking Muslims, Shahzad replied, “Well, the [American] people select the government. We consider them all the same.” His comment reflects not just the idea that American citizens are responsible for their democratically elected government but also the Islamist view that, by definition, infidels cannot be innocents.

However abhorrent, this tirade does have the virtue of truthfulness. Shahzad’s willingness to name his Islamic purposes and spend years in jail for them flies in the face of Obama-administration efforts to avoid naming Islamism as the enemy, preferring such lame formulations as “overseas contingency operations” and “man-caused disasters.”

Americans — as well as Westerners generally, all non-Muslims, and anti-Islamist Muslims — should listen to the bald declaration by Faisal Shahzad and accept the painful fact that Islamist anger and aspirations truly do motivate their terrorist enemies. Ignoring this fact will not make it disappear.

Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and Taube Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. © 2010 by Daniel Pipes. All rights reserved.


you can continue to blame america or israel or "the west", but that doesn't change the FACTS concerning how our civilization reacts to what our civilization does...israelis always protest when they believe their government goes too far; people are fired and pols are voted out of office...americans always protest and lament when our efforts result in civilian deaths; our soldiers are put on trial for their violations, real or perceived; our military treats the wounded, civilian and enemy alike; our government apologizes and offers reparations

and the "peace loving" palestinians? they danced in the streets on 9/11; they use children's tv to teach hatred of jews and glory in murder; they proudly proclaim their desire for their children to die while killing jews
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 25, 2010 - 11:55am PT
fatty,

i admire the company you keep
dirtbag

climber
Jun 25, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
I'm guessing you mean this paragraph bookworm:

When Cedarbaum pointed out that pedestrians in Times Square during the early evening of May 1 were not attacking Muslims, Shahzad replied, “Well, the [American] people select the government. We consider them all the same.” His comment reflects not just the idea that American citizens are responsible for their democratically elected government but also the Islamist view that, by definition, infidels cannot be innocents.


What's your point?

That all Muslims are on board with this nut?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 25, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
Latest update 20:08 10.06.10
In defense of dignity and freedom
After 43 years of occupation, Israel has lost the right to be called a state of law
By Ilana Hammerman

Not long ago, a foundation by the name of The Legal Forum for the Land of Israel asked the attorney general to open a criminal investigation against me for violating the Law of Entry to Israel because I took three Palestinian young women out for a day of fun in Tel Aviv ("If there is a heaven," Haaretz Magazine, May 7 ).



Ilana Hammerman with a Palestinian girl in Tel Aviv.

I am not a jurist nor am I well versed in criminal law. But as an ordinary citizen who is required to respect the laws of her country, I consider myself entitled, even obligated, to examine - including by means of common sense - the justice and morality of the laws that apply to me, and particularly with respect to other people who are subject to the laws of my country. It is on this basis that in recent years I have violated some of the laws of the State of Israel, and publicly announced that I was doing so.

I did not do this in rash defiance, but rather after much thought. Out of a need, that has become ever more pressing in the last years, to raise certain essential issues for in-depth public discussion in Israeli society - a discussion that will not relent when it comes to the word "law." Because a law formulated by political authorities should never be sanctified, anywhere. Not even in regimes that were elected by the votes of a majority of their citizens. The law must continually be reexamined. Indeed, we Jews know better than anyone how the road to the human abyss is paved with evil legislation that was properly enacted and accepted by the majority.

This discussion is necessary not only because of bitter experience, and in the name of justice and common sense, but also because of the basic knowledge that every citizen of a democratic state is obliged to possess, concerning both national and international laws.

The essential things that I believe must be discussed all have to do with Israel's military control of the territories, which were conquered in war 43 years ago, and with the hundreds of laws and injunctions that have derived from, and have been legislated by virtue of this control.

The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom was enacted in Israel in 1994. It includes the following stipulations: There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person; there shall be no violation of the property of a person; there shall be no deprivation or restriction of the liberty of a person by imprisonment, arrest, extradition or otherwise; all persons have the right to privacy and to intimacy; there shall be no entry into the private premises of a person who has not consented thereto; and, all persons are free to leave Israel.

All of these rights are denied the civilian Palestinian population living in the occupied territories under Israeli military control: Their lives, dignity and property are violated; their privacy and intimacy is not respected; and their private premises are entered without their consent. But, above all, their liberty is restricted: They are not free to leave their country, to move within it or to choose their place of residence at will. They are denied their liberty by arrest and imprisonment. Indeed, since 1967, approximately 800,000 Palestinians have been arrested and imprisoned for various periods of time by the Israeli military jurisdiction to which they are subject.

All of these restrictions and violations of rights - compounded by confiscation of land, checkpoints, fences and walls, and a truly labyrinthine bureaucracy surrounding receipt of entry and exit permits - all of this leads to serious violations of another human right promised to citizens and residents of Israel: "the right to engage in any occupation, profession or trade," which is enshrined in the Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1992 ).

How, for example, can a Palestinian farmer engage in his livelihood if all his land has been seized for the purpose of building and expanding an Israeli settlement? How can a Palestinian construction worker engage in his profession if his workplace is in Israel and the closures that are continually imposed on the occupied territories deprive him of the possibility of getting there? How can hundreds of thousands of other laborers "engage in any occupation" if there is no job market in the areas where they live, and the Law of Entry to Israel prevents them from getting to places where there is employment?

The Knesset has bestowed upon these two basic laws supra-legal status - meaning the courts have the authority to nullify any law that contravenes them. Section 12 of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty states: "This basic law cannot be varied, suspended or made subject to conditions by emergency regulations; notwithstanding, when a state of emergency exists, by virtue of a declaration under section 9 of the Law and Administration Ordinance, 5708-1948, emergency regulations may be enacted by virtue of said section to deny or restrict rights under this basic law, provided the denial or restriction shall be for a proper purpose and for a period and extent no greater than is required."

Having read this section very carefully, I reserve the right and duty to use common sense and to say that 43 years, and thousands of dead and crippled and hundreds of thousands of arrestees, do not fit the definition of a "proper purpose" or "for a period and extent no greater than is required."

I have the right and duty to know the conventions of international humanitarian law that apply to a country that holds territory by virtue of military conquest - and which are intended to protect the civilian populations of such territories - and to conclude from this knowledge that the State of Israel is violating key sections of those conventions.

Specifically, the state is permitting its citizens to settle in territories that it conquered; appropriating private land in these territories for its own needs and those of its citizens; destroying the assets of individuals, and of groups and authorities in these territories; and trying the residents of these territories in courts located within its own borders, and holding them in prisons within its territory, in contravention of the regulation stipulating that they be arrested and tried within the bounds of their occupied land. And above all: The state is persistently and systematically, in contravention of the international conventions, employing collective punishment against a civilian population.

On the basis of these facts, which do not require any legal expertise to understand, one can say that Israel has lost the right to be called a state of law. It has also to a large extent lost the right to be called a democratic state. Because the principle of democracy does not accord with a situation in which about seven million citizens who enjoy the right of free election can determine the fate of the lands and lives of about four million people whose liberties and civil rights are denied them by virtue of military control.

This is what must finally be debated in a frank manner in the State of Israel: Is Israel truly a state of law? Is it truly a democracy? Is it truly a state in which the basic rights of the person in it "are founded upon recognition of the value of the human being, the sanctity of human life, and the principle that all persons are free," as stated in the opening section of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty?

Furthermore, if it is not a democratic state or a state of law, what is the red line beyond which we can no longer continue to respect its laws and regulations without betraying our conscience, which requires us, just as the Basic Law of our country says, "to defend human dignity and liberty" - that is, the human dignity and liberty of every person, and not just the Jewish or Israeli person?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 25, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
No evil one the issue is Israel's protracted and illegal occupation of the Palestinian Territories. The situation is intractable and is even against Israeli law. I fear nothing will be resolved until the radical orthodox and fundamentalist Zionists renounce their long held sacred agenda to create the Kingdom of Greater Israel. That is the problem. You are right about the Palestinians being pawns. But it is Israel who controls the chess board.

edited to add;
Sorry that the suffering of millions bores you.
But, check your facts, the German Jew relief ship has more than two Jews,
And this first hand report that I posted is just a single example of the daily Israeli treatment of the "Others". Unlike the Black Jack Pershing in the Philippines or Teddy Roosevelt in Morocco fantasies you try to promote as real this woman's report IS real.
It is pretty cut and dry that Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories is not only illegal under International Law but Israeli Law as well.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 25, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
**Make all tubes ready!

Fire one!**

Could end up being an interesting weekend.

ME war tensions mount over Gaza-bound "enemy ships." Hizballah pledges reprisal
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report June 24, 2010, 1:11 PM (GMT+02:00)

Tags: Enemy vessels Gaza blockade Hizballah Lebanese PM Hariri
The stop-go Lebanese Julia

Ominous clouds gathered over the Mediterranean Thursday, June 24 after Israel announced that ships bound for Gaza would be deemed "enemy vessels" and halted by its navy by whatever means were necessary. Hizballah shot back with a threat of violent retaliation, while Israel's northern commander warned that the IDF was prepared to deal with threats from Lebanon by "appropriate means."

With two ships, one Lebanese and one Iranian, already at sea, the Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri was reported by debkafile's intelligence sources as coupling his public support for the sea campaign to break Israel's blockade of Gaza with a quiet bid to stall it.

He privately asked Cypriot President Demetris Christofias, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou and the Maltese Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi to deny Lebanese ships bound for Gaza permission to drop anchor, refuel or load provisions at their ports, in order to prevent them from proceeding to Gaza.
Hariri explained that he feared the flotilla campaign to break the Israeli blockade would precipitate a new Middle East war.

Last week, the freighter "Julia," docked at the North Lebanese port of Tripoli was denied permission to head to Gaza Port. Refusing to be put off, the activists decided to sail first to Cyprus and then head for Gaza. Permission was granted by the Lebanese Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi Wednesday, June 23.
On Thursday, June 24, Israel repeated its warning that ships trying to breach its blockade against the Gaza Strip would be deemed "enemy vessels." The Israeli Navy has been instructed to employ every available means to bar their access to Gaza's shore. Israel OC Northern Command Gen. Gadi Eizenkot said: "The Lebanese side is issuing threats against Israel and we are confident that the Israeli army is preparing to confront these threats in an appropriate manner."
He was referring to Hizballah's announcement: "We will not stand by idly if Israel attacks ships bound for Gaza. Detainees taken into Israeli custody (aboard those vessels) will be deemed prisoners of war who must be released.
As the climate over the Mediterranean heats up, two ships are either at sea or hours away from embarkation - the Julia from Lebanon and an Iranian ship, which is said to be making for the Suez Canal from the Persian Gulf port of Khorramshahr.
In his calls to the Greek, Turkish, Cypriot and Maltese leaders, the Lebanese prime minister admitted that the embarkation of the pro-Palestinian vessels from his ports violates US Resolution 1701 enforcing the Israel-Lebanon ceasefire which ended the 2006 war, but he was helpless to stop them because they were backed by powerful elements. Hariri did not say who they were, but they were understood to be Syria and Hizballah.
He stressed that more urgent issues confronted Beirut than the Gaza blockade, such as the Shaaba Farms on the Hermon slopes, which he said, "Hizballah only talks about liberating but has not fired a single shell." Hariri made it clear that by sponsoring the ships for Gaza, Hizballah is bringing Lebanon dangerously close to a clash with Israel.
Unlike the May 31 episode, when the activists who resisted Israel's raid of a Turkish ship to prevent if from reaching Gaza were unknown quantities, this time, on Thursday, Israeli intelligence sources released the identities of the ships' owners and the organizations mounting the expeditions.
The Lebanese "Julia" belongs to a Syrian shipping firm headed by a cousin of President Bashar Assad, who made it available to Hizballah for the challenge to Israel. The Lebanese flotilla effort is funded by a Palestinian by the name of Yasser Kashlak who, posing as a wealthy businessman, serves as Tehran's secret channel for remitting funds to Hizballah and Palestinian terrorist organizations, including Hamas.
Therefore, Israel's designation of these ships and those of Iran as enemy vessels meets the case.
From Washington, debkafile reports that when Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak met US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on June 22, he voiced extreme concern about the Lebanese Prime Minister's inability to rein in Hizballah. Because of this, the situation in the region could rapidly deteriorate, said Barak.

Right after the meeting, the US issued a statement about the "aid" flotillas saying, "Direct delivery by sea is neither appropriate nor responsible, and certainly not effective, under the circumstances. There is no need for unnecessary confrontations, and we, along with our partners in the Quartet, call on all parties to act responsibly in meeting the needs of the people of Gaza."
dirtbag

climber
Jun 25, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
Funny how not one MSM picked up TGT's story last week about the Iranians hiding Bin Laden.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 25, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
It doesn't fit the narrative.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2010 - 12:15am PT
Sure. Right. Because the media was so reticent about reporting all the exaggerated claims of Iraqi WMD back in 2003.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 27, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
Well, that's not right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRZSzdQuOqM




Senator McShame where are you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q7yEnMjQ6U
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 27, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
Just as a follow up to the previous video post.

http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-06-04/liberty-survivor-gaza-flotilla.html





Remember the Liberty. The most decorated ship in US naval history.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7384200507117357203#

Our greatest ally? Hah! with allies like these who needs a Clash of Civilizations?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 28, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
I ran into an interesting nugget recently, which indicated that at most 40% of US Jews had ever visited Israel. Other sources suggest it's as low as 20%. Which shows that FatTrad is in good company.
http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/bitstreams/10109.pdf
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 28, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
So because Hamas won't let food into Gaza, American Jews won't visit Israel? I didn't know there was a hummus shortage!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 28, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
Whinny blabbering? Holy Crap Fats, did you listen to the survivors? Did you hear how they kept at their stations even though critically wounded. It's pretty piss poor of you to dismiss this act of war and war crime as a simple mistake. I know that is the "official" version of the Israeli Government but the facts don't lie. Only the guilty and complicit lie.



But, nice effort at deflection, you are a pro at it
dirtbag

climber
Jun 28, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
philo,

I'm a master at spinning, I've taught a couple of the best Repub strategists.

Yeah, and just look at the great results:

McCain-lost
Poizner-lost
Pombo-lost.

Please keep it up Fatty.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 28, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
Teach baby, teach.

Is our repubs lernin'?
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
here is what you need to know on the liberty "accident" fats;

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/06/24/why-really-the-uss-liberty-was-attacked-by-israel/
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
link not busted. liberty incident is relavent as all history in understanding present.

fatrad;

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hasbara
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 28, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
"And Chavez wants to attack America with the help of the Arabs:"



Whoa now there's a leap of neo-con hope.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Jun 28, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
Jeff,

Only your one brown eye.....maybe.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 28, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
Yep, that expains NuttyYahoo & Liberman.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 28, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
Well that would depend on whether I was a Palestinian or a Jew now wouldn't it.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 29, 2010 - 12:01am PT
It completely matters! And where do you get your info on the M.E.?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 29, 2010 - 10:07am PT
This ought to make a Chris Mathews thrill run up Philo's leg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8WfSMek-bQ&feature=player_embedded
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 11:45am PT
"Since we are into strait shooting and all maybe you will answer the question you keep running away from:
Would you like to live under the rule of Hamas?
And if not, why not?
Thanks, Skip"


Before I answer that (so as to shut your whining up) let me give you a little humorous history lesson.
Hamas, the evil organization that you quake in fear of, is really an Israeli creation. Funded and encouraged by NuttyYahoo himself. The wise and all powerful Mousad, fearful of the political power of Arafat and his well established Fatah party financed and promoted Hamas while simultaneously crushing Fatah. Then when the US and Israel forced early elections on Gaza they of course elected the organization that was providing them food, medicine and other critically needed social services. That didn't work out the way the power brokers thought it would. So they began strangling Hamas and by extension Gaza. That in return has rapidly radicalized large (but not all) segments of the Hamas political party. Israel has brought this upon themselves and rues the consequences of their own actions.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas
History of Hamas
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Before 1987

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Hamas founder
Sheikh Ahmed Yassin returned to Gaza from Cairo in the 1970s, where he set up Islamic charities, founding Hamas in 1987 as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the [Islamic university — founded in 1978 in Gaza] had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad." By the end of 1992, there were 600 mosques in Gaza. Hamas attracted members through preaching and charitable work before spreading its influence into trade unions, universities, bazaars, professional organizations and local government political races beginning in December 2004. “Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks), the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression”, according to L'Humanité.[1] Indeed Israel supported and encouraged Hamas' early growth in an effort to undermine the secular Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat.[2] According to UPI, Israel supported Hamas starting in the late 1970s as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization".[3] At that time, Hamas's focus was on "religious and social work". The grassroots movement concentrated on social issues such as exposing corruption, administration of waqf (trusts) and organizing community projects.
In a statement to the Israeli Parliament's (the Knesset) Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Monday February 12, 2007, Israeli Prime minister Ehud Olmert said "Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom".[4]


Now to answer your dumb ass question that to you is black and white with no qualifying conditions. So here is a qualifier; If I were a disenfranchised and desperate Palestinian living in the Israeli imposed open air prison of Gaza I would most certainly prefer Hamas repression to Israeli occupation. But I know you won't grasp what I am saying since in the myth based reality you reside in Israel is a shinning star of virtue and the ragged dirt niggers are all terrorists from birth.
History will prove you wrong. Or you could try to expand your perceptions by learning.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
Because they are trapped in a Catch 22 imposed by Israel.
Their legitimate claim of the Right of Return will be considered, by Israel, even more completely dead if any other country takes responsibility for them. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Hey Fats, how cool is this?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-career-soldier-suspected-of-spying-for-hezbollah-1.299184

Published 14:49 30.06.10Latest update 14:49 30.06.10
IDF career soldier suspected of spying for Hezbollah
Suspect allegedly participated in drug smuggling gang that transferred sensitive military information to Hezbollah-linked figure in Lebanon.

By Anshel Pfeffer and Jack Khoury
Tags: IDF Hezbollah Lebanon
A career Israel Defense Forces soldier is suspected of spying for the Lebanese militia Hezbollah, the authorities revealed on Wednesday. The soldier, a resident of northern Israel, is suspected of having taken part in a gang that smuggled drugs from Lebanon and transferred sensitive military information on Israeli security to a Hezbollah-linked figure.


IDF career soldier suspected of spying for Hezbollah

Photo by: Yaron Kaminsky
The military police arrested the suspect several weeks ago, following a joint investigation with the Galilee police. He was brought before a judge for another extension of his remand on Wednesday at the military court in Haifa.


Meanwhile, five additional suspects have been arrested in connection with the case. Their remands were extended Wednesday at the Acre Magistrate's Court.

A senior military police official said after the arrests that "[the suspect] was aware of the fact that the information he was passing along would be used by Hezbollah to harm the security of the state."

The attorneys representing the civilians arrested in the case said that their clients vehemently deny the charges against them. They said, furthermore, that the case has been blown out of proportion and that their clients were arrested only based on the testimony of the main suspect.

The identity of the suspect is still under a gag order.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
And in all seriousness this is one of the most clear headed assessment of the Israeli/Palestinian condition and it's by an Israeli. I can't wait to be called an Anti-Semite.


http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-israel-must-admit-to-its-mistakes-1.299206

Published 16:25 30.06.10Latest update 16:25 30.06.10
Strenger Than Fiction / Israel must admit to its mistakes
Like Abbas admitted that the second intifada was one of the worst Palestinian mistakes, Israel needs to admit to its worst mistake: the settlement enterprise.

By Carlo Strenger
Tags: Israel settlements Mahmoud Abbas David Grossman
A few days ago I leafed through David Grossman’s collection of essays Death as a Way of Life. It was published in 2003, in the midst of the second intifada, after the failure of the Camp David Summit. The most unsettling paragraph in the book is right at the beginning, in which Grossman writes of the silence that everybody here feels, somewhere, within the deafening noise of the media, political slogans, gun and mortar-fire:


PA President Mahmoud Abbas and U.S. peace envoy George Mitchell

Photo by: Archive
“This is the empty space in which every person, Israeli or Palestinian, knows with piercing certainty. All that he does not want or does not dare to know. There, within himself, he understands - even if he denies it at the top of his lungs, with shouts, even gunshots – that his life is being dissipated, squandered in a pointless struggle, and that his identity and self-respect and the one life he has to live are being endlessly expropriated from him in a conflict that could have been resolved long ago.”


Since 2003 the sense of pointlessness has only increased, and so has the pain over the waste of human potential and human lives. Grossman’s words reverberated in my soul as I witnessed Israel gradually giving up on the blockade on Gaza. Another instance of pointless, and in this case, inhuman struggle. Experts agree that, if anything, the blockade only strengthened Hamas by allowing the Islamist organization to take virtual control of all goods smuggled through the flourishing tunnel system, and thus gain a stranglehold over all of Gaza.

Now Israel is letting go, and yet no one is asking why our governments keep making wrong decisions. Public "wisdom" is that this is not a time for criticism; we must be patriotic because we are under attack. The problem, it is said, are not Israel’s misguided policies, but the external delegitimization campaign against Israel. Hence, here in Israel, we need to support the government, no matter what. This erects a barrier against critical thinking that can generate alternatives, and hence the same mistakes are bound to be repeated.

What can be done to break the chain of wrong decisions? Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas recently gave an interesting example for this. A number of weeks ago he said in an interview on Egyptian TV that the second intifada was the greatest mistake in Palestinian history. This admission is significant because it is one of the first times that a Palestinian leader, instead of harping exclusively on Palestinian victimhood, assigned Palestinians some responsibility for their own fate.

The second intifada was indeed a terrible mistake. Two years of carnage wiped out Israel’s peace camp and built a case for the right wing: If Israel gives up territory to the Palestinians, the result is a wave of terror. The ongoing rocket fire into Southern Israel after the disengagement from Gaza ruined the little that was left of the peace camp. The Palestinians are indeed quite directly responsible for the move of Israel’s electorate to the right. If Abbas were to repeat his statement on Israeli TV, he would do much to build a case for the leftovers of the peace camp, possibly convincing them that it was worth taking a risk again for peace.

What admission of responsibility would be of use for Israel, both internally and externally? Israel would have to admit that the most terrible mistake it has made over the last thirty six years is to allow the building of settlements in the West-Bank. It is easy to point the finger only at the settlers and at the right-wing, but we shouldn’t forget that the Rabin and Barak governments expanded settlements more than any other government, as Akiva Eldar and Idith Zertal have shown in their book Lords of the Land.

The ongoing settlement activity eroded moderate Palestinians' belief that Israel really intended to allow the establishment of a dignified, contiguous Palestinian state. At best, most Palestinians felt, Israel would allow some kind of Bantustan.

The settlements are also the reason why Israel now finds itself so deeply internationally isolated. The argument that "the world condemns us no matter what" is based on a dangerous simplification. It doesn’t distinguish between those who would love to see Israel dismantled and look for any justification to delegitimize Israel, and between Western States who are basically friendly toward Israel, but demand that it behaves according to the standards of the West. The West has come to see colonization as illegitimate. And while the West accepts and supports Israel’s existence in pre-1967 borders, it is constantly taken aback and infuriated by the settlements, because they cannot be justified by Israel’s security concerns and are indeed a colonial enterprise.

I cannot see any Israeli leader who would make this admission clearly. He or she would instantly become unelectable. It would be too heavy a burden for Israel’s collective psyche to truly say, with Grossman, that so many lives have been squandered in a pointless project, based on a combination of messianic beliefs and misguided power-politics. To say that Israel has wasted enormous human, financial, political, moral and military resources in the Byzantine structure of double road systems and settlements. To admit that it has caused enormous human suffering for Palestinians over the last decades.

There is no alternative but to learn to live with the pain that, as David Grossman wrote in 2003, all this suffering was for absolutely nothing; now we are adding another seven years of horrible mistakes. Only when we are able to face this pain, will Israel finally be able to stop making the same mistakes time and again. And then, gradually, a dialogue with Palestinians may emerge in which both sides will be able to admit that, far from just being victims, both Israelis and Palestinians have simply been wrong, countless times.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
Why won't it change?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
How can it be a clash of Civilizations if you consider the other side completely uncivilized?
Mimi

climber
Jun 30, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
Good point.

But alas, we are all still savages.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 30, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
Gandhi was once asked what he thought about western civilization, and he is said to have replied that he thought it would be a good idea.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
Ha, ha, ha, Anders, that's great. What he meant was that it would be a good idea if the west was civilized. It went right over the heads of the west at the time.
Mimi

climber
Jun 30, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
Yes, he probably thought of Britain or Western Civilization as an oxymoron, but he was striving for the same 'western' freedoms for his people against the caste system. Even more entrenched than Imperialism.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 30, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
Yes it was a comment of savvy social and nuanced political understanding.
Mimi

climber
Jun 30, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
Are you quoting Axelrod again?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:35am PT
Uh oh, don't tell Fattrad.



http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/russia-to-deliver-armored-vehicles-to-palestinian-authority-1.299428


Published 16:25 01.07.10Latest update 16:25 01.07.10
Russia to deliver armored vehicles to Palestinian Authority
A Russian foreign ministry spokesman says armored personnel carriers to be delivered to Jordan and transferred to PA 'in the coming days.'

By Haaretz Service and Reuters
Tags: Israel news Russia Palestinian Authority Hamas
Russia will deliver 50 armored personnel carriers to the Palestinian Authority in the near future, a spokesman for Russia's Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.

"In the coming days 50 armored personnel carriers will be delivered to Jordan and then will be handed over to Palestinian security forces in the West Bank," spokesman Andrei Nesterenko told reporters.

Russia first offered to supply armored personnel carriers to the Palestinians for internal security as early as 2005, but Israel initially opposed the delivery.

Moscow has also been increasing its efforts of late to include Hamas – the Gaza Strip rival of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas - in Middle East peace talks.


A Russian tank rolls off a trailer as it prepares to take part in practice for a military parade in Moscow on May 4, 2010.

Photo by: Reuters
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov met earlier this week and reportedly disagreed over Moscow's increased efforts to include Hamas in Mideast peace talks.


"In all our talks with Hamas we have tried to convince them to switch to the political track, and support the Arab peace initiative," Lavrov said on Tuesday.

The two ministers also reportedly differed on how to proceed with peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, with the Russian foreign minister saying that negotiations must be advanced through the formation of a joint commission that would also include representatives of the Quartet and the Arab League.

Lavrov also warned that "in the absence of progress in the political track extremist elements in the Palestinian nation will be strengthened."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:52am PT
OBama flexes his diplomatic muscle and Israel complies. Perhaps there is hope after all.
And it looks like the extremist Liberman is being cut out of the loop and distanced. Ha, ha, ha.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-obama-pressured-israel-and-turkey-to-hold-secret-talks-1.299357


9:28 01.07.10
Report: Obama pressured Israel and Turkey to hold secret talks
Barak opposed idea of Ben-Eliezer meeting Turkish FM, according to associates; Lieberman furious with Netanyahu for not informing him of plan, but says matter won't lead Yisrael Beiteinu to quit coalition.

By Barak Ravid and Haaretz Service
Tags: Barack Obama Turkey Israel news Gaza flotilla
A senior Israeli official's secret meeting with the Turkish foreign minister in Switzerland was apparently held due to pressure from the Obama administration, sources in Jerusalem said Thursday.

The White House prompted and coordinated the meeting between Israeli Industry, Trade, and Labor Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer and Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, the source confirmed in response to a report in the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet.


Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, Turkish FM Ahmet Davutoglu.

Photo by: AP

The meeting was held Wednesday without permission from Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who reacted furiously to the news that such talks were held without his knowledge or consent.

Associates of Defense Minister Ehud Barak said he had opposed the meeting and told Prime Minister Netanyahu as much, though ultimately decided not to veto the matter.

The defense minister had declined advice to hold his own meeting with the Turkish envoy to the U.S. or even Davutoglu during his recent visit to Washington, the associates added.

Davutoglu took off for Zurich on a private plane to maintain the clandestine nature of the talks, Hurriyet reported on Thursday, and the conference room was booked under a fake name.

During their two-hour meeting, Davutoglu reportedly reiterated Turkey's demand that Israel apologize for its May 31 raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla that left nine Turkish activists dead.

After learning about the meeting, Lieberman warned that the move had damaged his relationship with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"The foreign minister takes a very serious view of the fact that this occurred without informing the Ministry of Foreign Affairs," Lieberman's office said in a statement immediately following the report. "This is an insult to the norms of accepted behavior and a heavy blow to the confidence between the foreign minister and the prime minister."

Lieberman on Thursday rejected Netanyahu's bid to meet, though denied speculations that his Yisrael Beiteinu party was planning to leave the coalition over the matter.

"The system of considerations here must be different… this is a big, strong and stable coalition… this is the time to think big and not just about what the headline will be in the newspaper on Friday."

The foreign minister said his response could not be considered an unwarranted "outburst", telling Israel Radio: "The Prime Minister's Bureau should have considered and dealt with this matter differently, or at the very least consulted [with me]."

"Suddenly we discover that the defense minister and other senior officials were in on the matter and that the whole process was coordinated with the U.S.," he said. "When you heard all these details and every half an hour there are more details, it becomes completely unreasonable."

Ben-Eliezer, a Knesset member of Defense Minister Ehud Barak's Labor party, has over the past few weeks expressed concern over Israel's deteriorating relationswith Turkey. Ties between the once-close allies have come close to breakdown following a deadly raid by Israeli commandos on a Turkish-flagged aid ship a month ago.

Wednesday's talks were apparently aimed at repairing the diplomatic damage.

Later on Wednesday, Netanyahu's office released a statement that cited technical grounds for the failure to inform Lieberman of the meeting in Zurich.

Turkish officials had approached Ben-Eliezer personally with a request for an informal discussion, which the prime minister had seen no cause to block, the statement said.

"In recent weeks there have been several attempts at contacts with Turkey of which the foreign ministry was aware," the statement said. "The foreign minister was not informed for technical reasons only. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is working in full cooperation with the foreign minister and will clarify the incident with him."

Lieberman's hard-line Yisrael Beiteinu party is the second largest in the government coalition, behind Netanyahu's Likud. But the foreign minister's right-wing views have made him unpalatable to many of Israel's allies and he has often taken a back seat internationally, leaving high-level diplomacy to Netanyahu and Barak.

Following Israel's May 31 raid, Ben-Eliezer broke with other ministers in demanding an international inquiry into the incident, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists with Turkish citizenship were killed.

Israel is conducting its own probe, led by a former Supreme Court judge and monitored by two international observers.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 1, 2010 - 11:46am PT
Great recommended read and on topic: Dore Golds "Hatreds Kingdom". Good read and I give it 9 out of 10 for normally dry material.

http://www.amazon.com/Hatreds-Kingdom-Arabia-Supports-Terrorism/dp/0895260611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277998107&sr=1-1-spell

I suppose Philo would never want to check out the opposing view, but the rest of us should check it out. Slant-bias heads up: Written by a former Israeli ambassador. Good work, hasn't been refuted by the Saudis that I'm aware of, and if you click on the "Used" book section of the Amazon link, the lowest cost one is only $1.23.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 1, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
Iran: Persian, mostly Shiite, often fundamental.
Turkey: Turkish, mostly secular Sunnis.
Palestine: Arab, mixed Sunni and Shiite, mixed secular and fundamental.

Wild suggestions that the Palestinians somehow have much in common with either Turks or Iranians need to address the long-term differences between those peoples, going back centuries or more.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 08:25am PT
Couchmaster posted;
"Slant-bias heads up: Written by a former Israeli ambassador."


That is all you need to know. Slant Bias....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 09:14am PT
Published 10:51 02.07.10Latest update 10:51 02.07.10
How to win with Hamas
Never has Israel had an enemy so perfectly attuned to the Jewish state's weaknesses, so impervious to its strengths. For more than 20 years - ever since Israel inadvertently midwifed the founding of Hamas at the outset of the first intifada - the organization has leveraged Israel's every tactic into tangible, stepwise political gain.

By Bradley Burston
Traditionally, Israel's only truly abundant and reliable resource has been enemies. But never one quite like Hamas. No matter what Israel has tried - undermining its power base, annihilating its leadership, sapping its international backing, bleeding it, jailing it, starving it, expelling it - Hamas has always emerged with new might.

Never has Israel had an enemy so perfectly attuned to the Jewish state's weaknesses, so impervious to its strengths. For more than 20 years - ever since Israel inadvertently midwifed the founding of Hamas at the outset of the first intifada - the organization has leveraged Israel's every tactic into tangible, stepwise political gain.


Now, at long last, Benjamin Netanyahu has a chance to beat Hamas at its own game. He can free Gilad Shalit. Or he can do nothing, and lose again. It is finally time for Israel to radically revise its thinking about Hamas. To say that Israel's policies toward it have failed, is to only hint at the magnitude of the failure.

In the last decade alone, resolute and wrongheaded governments have paved the way for one Hamas victory after another. They allowed Sharon his walk in the Temple Mount, putting an effective end to peace talks. They crippled Fatah-Palestinian Authority forces in an onslaught at the onset of the ensuing second intifada, leaving Hamas untouched and emboldened. They denigrated and shunned the PA in the disengagement from Gaza, which allowed Hamas to claim the withdrawal as a personal triumph. They resisted the deployment of international peacekeepers to curb rocket fire. The overwhelming force applied during the Gaza War - against a Hamas enemy which in large part refrained from combat, led to serious civilian losses and international condemnation. Most recently, and most profoundly, the siege of Gaza intended to topple Hamas has backfired into one of Hamas' principle triumphs, especially since the flotilla fiasco.

Why is it that time after time, Israel sets a trap for Hamas and is shocked to find itself falling straight into it? Beyond everything else, our inability to successfully confront Hamas has to do with that most tragic and deep-seated of our misconceptions regarding the Palestinians: the unshakable, eternal faith among Israelis that "we know the Arabs." Yet the actual equation is simple: It is Hamas that knows Israelis like no one else. Indeed, Israelis, at this point in time, don't even know themselves.

The long war with Hamas has changed Israel, and for the worse. It has in many ways robbed the country of the ability to make decisions courageously and independently. From suicide bombings to rocket attacks to its demands for Gilad Shalit - Hamas has made many Israelis grow callous to the plight of Palestinians, as a whole, and to lose faith both in the efficacy of their own government and in the very possibility of peace.

Hamas remembers and exploits what we have forgotten: the underlying dynamics of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Hamas understands that the basic motivating force of post-Holocaust Jews is fear, and that the basic motivating force of post-Nakba Palestinians is humiliation. Hamas understands that Israel's attempts to address its fears often cause Palestinians additional humiliation. And Hamas knows even better that Palestinians' attempts to redress their humiliation often deepen Israelis' fears.

On the face of it, Israel's aversion to meeting Hamas' terms for the release of Shalit are well founded. Many of the prisoners whose release the organization is demanding have commanded horrifying terror operations, and may even press for new attacks upon their release. And Hamas will certainly claim as a victory a deal predicated on its own terms.

But this week, two of the men who put Hamas commanders behind bars, two men who know the risks better than anyone - former Shin Bet chiefs Yaakov Peri and Ami Ayalon - publicly endorsed agreeing to the organization's terms. They declared that when all factors are taken into consideration, Israel must give precedence to the most fundamental promise it makes to its soldiers: to bring them home if captured, no matter what.

It is time for Israel to stop allowing Hamas to change it for the worse. The present government, adopting the organization's antipathy to peace talks, cites Hamas as an excuse for avoiding those talks. The previous government, declaring all-out war on Hamas, adopted its practice of waging war on civilians.

It is time for Israel to once again be Israel. To stick by the principles that once made this nation strong. To abide by the promises it made to those who are willing to risk everything in its name.

The irony is that to a remarkable degree, Hamas keeps its promises. Israel must do no less. The nation that cannot honor the faith of its own soldiers and their families is already dying at heart. Where Israel fails to be true to itself, Hamas wins.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 2, 2010 - 10:12am PT
Today's feature!

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/01/iran.stoning/index.html?fbid=6MXrWkAzwqp

Brought to you by the cult of misogyny.

ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 10:38am PT
" Shalit is dead or should be considered so."


not according to the US house and senate;

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/07/knesset-west.html

not that they don't have anything more important on their quisling minds
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 10:43am PT
Fats, WTF does the Saudi situation have to do with the brutal occupation of Palestine by Israeli Zionist extremists? And why do you keep trying to force feed it to me?



And Jefe, with your abysmal record prognostication you should fasten your seat belt it's gonna be a bumpy ride.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
So you are admitting that Israeli intransigence is the root of the failure of peace talks.
Good on you for finally being honest.


Should the next military conflict be the US occupying Israel to force a peace agreement?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
A peace loving Palestinian rocket launching garbage truck.


http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/2010070117831.aspx


The sign says "In case of traffic violations, please contact The Palestinian Authority."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:55pm PT


Wow that looks deadlier than an F-16 or an Apache death ship. No wonder the IDF is pissing themselves. Kind of like the Chinese tank crew must of sh#t themselves when they saw that dangerous pedestrian.

Hey where can I get one of those? That would really clear the rePugnicants out of the campgrounds at JTree.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
Israeli kids learning to hate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mO8CWSam2o


Israeli Hate Education

3.75
Your rating: None Average: 3.8 (2 votes)
Israeli Textbooks and Children's
Literature Promote Racism and
Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

By Maureen Meehan

Israeli school textbooks as well as children's storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as "murderers," "rioters," "suspicious," and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

"The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as 'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers,'" said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of "improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of." Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel's ancient past and how the land was "neglected and destroyed" by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it "with the help of the Zionist movement."

"This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land," Bar-Tal told the Washington Report.

"The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land."

This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: "unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic." Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were "tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored" and "they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed."

Textbooks currently being used in the Israeli school system, says Bar-Tal, contain less direct denigration of Arabs but continue to stereotype them negatively when referring to them. He pointed out that Hebrew- as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. The coordinator of a Palestinian NGO in Israel said that major historical events hardly get a mention either.

"When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date '1948' barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead," said Jamal Atamneh, coordinator of the Arab Education Committee in Support of Local Councils, a Haifa-based NGO. "Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict. When they teach about 'peace and co-existence,' it is to teach us how to get along with Jews."

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel's population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

"Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians," Atamneh said. "For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel."

In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. "How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?"

Answering his own question, Atamneh rattles off statistics that reflect excellent high school scores among Arab students which he contrasts to their subsequent lower-than-average performance in Hebrew-language college entrance exams given by the state.

"No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. They justify this legal discrimination by the fact that we do not serve in the army. There are numerous blatant and official methods used to keep Palestinian Arabs out of the universities."

Absence of Palestinian Identity in Schoolbooks

Dr. Eli Podeh, lecturer in the Department of Islamic Studies and Middle East History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, says that while certain changes in Israeli textbooks are slowly being implemented, the discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.

"Passages from 'experts' about the existence of a Palestinian identity were introduced, but in general it appeared that the textbook authors were not eager to adopt it," said Dr. Podeh, adding that "the connection between Palestinians in Israel and Arabs in Arab countries is not discussed. Especially evident is the lack of a discussion on the orientation of Palestinians to the [occupied] territories.

"While new textbooks attempt to correct some of the earlier distortions, these books as well contain overt and covert fabrications," said Dr. Podeh. "The establishment has preferred -- or felt itself forced -- to encourage the cover-up and condemn the perplexity."

One Israeli public high school student told the Washington Report that the contents of the schoolbooks and the viewpoints expressed by some teachers indeed have a lasting negative effect on youngsters' attitudes toward Palestinians.

"Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us," said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.

"We are accustomed to hearing the same thing, only one side of the story. They teach us that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don't mention what happened to the Arabs -- they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes," said Banvolegyi.

Banvolegyi, who will be a high school senior this fall, and then will be drafted into the Israeli army next summer, said he argues with his friends about what he regards as racism in the textbooks and on the part of the teachers. He pointed out a worrisome example of how damaging the textbooks and prevailing attitudes can be.

"One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw," said Banvolegyi. "Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers' attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs."

Banvolegyi spoke about his schoolmates who, he says, "are dying to go into combat and kill Arabs. I try to talk to them but they say I don't care about this country. But I do care and that's why I tell them peace and justice are the only ways to work things out."

Racist Israeli Upbringing

Considering what the schools have to offer, both Banvolegyi and Atamneh agree that the oral tradition is one of the few ways to get the story straight.

"Unfortunately Israeli children's books are not an option for promoting equality in this society,"" said Atamneh, citing a book written by Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen called An Ugly Face in the Mirror.

Cohen's book is a study of the nature of children's upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians. One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:

Seventy five percent of the children described the "Arab" as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal, and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine.

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:
Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children's books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.

Cohen's study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as to prepare them to deal with Arabs.

"So you can see that if you grew up reading or studying from these books, you'd never know anything else," said Atamneh.

"But in the case of Palestinians, we grow up 500 meters away from what used to be a town or village and is now a Jewish settlement. Our parents and grandparents tell us all about it; endlessly they talk about it. It's the only way."

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.Israeli Hate Education
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 3, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
Published 12:34 23.06.10Latest update 12:34 23.06.10

Settlers threaten to forcibly evict East Jerusalem Palestinians
Israeli settlers say they will hire private security firms to evacuate four families if they do not leave property by July 4.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/settlers-threaten-to-forcibly-evict-east-jerusalem-palestinians-1.297871



Any happy "Independence" day commentary?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 4, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
Because the Israelis are not squeezing the life out of Saudis or Iranians.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
Yeah, but what I'd like to see is a Vibram boot print on NuttyYahho's backside.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
true enough;

“There was not a single act of Arab terrorism against Americans before 1968, when the U.S. became the chief supplier of military equipment and economic aid to Israel.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-07-04/thaddeus-russell-does-us-support-for-israel-threatens-american-safety/

WBraun

climber
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
Netanyahu is one of the biggest assh'oles on the planet today.

Pure fuking evil .....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 6, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
Looks like I'm unwelcome in Iran. Bummer...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3915447,00.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2010 - 02:15pm PT

RA

Link?

Source?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 6, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
Ron, why exactly do you hate Muslims so?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 6, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
Here's what Ron was talking about;
http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/irs-allows-interest-deductions-on-supposedly-interest-free-sharia-compliant-loans/
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 6, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
loud and clear Blue, ah the Capital Athletic Foundation indeed;

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/world/middleeast/06settle.html?_r=2&hpw

"The Times’s review of pro-settler groups suggests that most generally live within the rules of the American tax code. Some, though, risk violating them by using the money for political campaigning and residential property purchases, by failing to file tax returns, by setting up boards of trustees in name only and by improperly funneling donations directly to foreign organizations."

"Some pro-settler charities have obscured their true intentions.

Take the Capital Athletic Foundation, run by the disgraced Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff. In its I.R.S. filings, the foundation noted donations totaling more than $140,000 to Kollel Ohel Tiferet, a religious study group in Israel, for “educational and athletic” purposes. In reality, a study group member was using the money to finance a paramilitary operation in the Beitar Illit settlement, according to documents in a Senate investigation of Mr. Abramoff, who pleaded guilty in 2006 to defrauding clients and bribing public officials.

Mr. Abramoff, documents show, had directed the settler, Shmuel Ben Zvi, an old high school friend, to use the study group as cover after his accountant complained that money for sniper equipment and a jeep “don’t look good” in terms of complying with the foundation’s tax-exempt status.

While the donations by Mr. Abramoff’s charity were elaborately disguised — the group shipped a camouflage sniper suit in a box labeled “Grandmother Tree Costume for the play Pocahontas”

"

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 6, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
A good (and long) article in today's New York Times, on how Jews and fundamentalists Christians have funnelled $200 million or more through US charities to support organizations in Israel that promote illegal settlements on the West Bank, contrary to US government policy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but given the way in which the government has prosecuted charities that are claimed to support terrorism, some prosecutions seem likely.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/world/middleeast/06settle.html?_r=1&hpw
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 7, 2010 - 02:32am PT
Maybe, but it should be fun to watch all the wriggling. Why should taxpayers subsidize radical organizations that advance positions that are exactly opposed to those of the US government?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 10:23am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-negotiator-netanyahu-blocking-path-to-direct-peace-talks-1.300582


Latest update 14:47 07.07.10
Palestinian negotiator: Netanyahu blocking path to direct peace talks
Netanyahu says Israel it is prepared to take additional steps to ease Palestinian movement in the West Bank in a bid to coax Abbas into direct negotiations.

By News Agencies
Tags: Israel news Middle East peace Benjamin Netanyahu Barack Obama
Palestinians responded coolly on Wednesday to calls by U.S. President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to move from indirect to direct peace negotiations.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, U.S. President Barack Obama, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in New York in September 2009.

Photo by: Reuters
Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat blamed Netanyahu for blocking the way to direct negotiations, because of his refusal to meet Palestinian demands for a full freeze on Israeli construction in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.


Asked if he expected more U.S. pressure on the Palestinians in the wake of Tuesday's meeting between Obama and Netanyahu, Erekat said: "The whole world and the U.S. administration knows that the one who is blocking the door to direct negotiations is Netanyahu."

"We are sincerely interested in starting direct negotiations, but Netanyahu keeps closing the door in front of us," Erekat told Voice of Palestine Radio. "Netanyahu must decide if he wants peace or settlements. He cannot have both."

He also reiterated that the Palestinians first want to see progress in indirect talks on the issues of borders and security, and for direct negotiations to resume from where they ended in December 2008, during an election campaign in Israel that saw Netanyahu return to power.

"The world knows that starting direct talks is in the hands of Netanyahu. All he has to do is say that all settlement activities, even those in Jerusalem, will stop," Erekat, a top aide to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said.

"We have had a peace process for 19 years, but the Israeli settlement policy has not changed," he added.

Indirect talks initiated in May by U.S. mediator George Mitchell are about halfway through their agreed four-month lifetime. They are to conclude in September, around the same time as a partial freeze that Netanyahu ordered last November on Israeli settlement building on West Bank land.

Israel said it is prepared to take additional steps to ease Palestinian movement in the West Bank in a bid to coax Abbas into direct peace talks, Netanyahu said on Wednesday.

Netanyahu, however, sidestepped questions in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America" about whether he was prepared to extend beyond September a 10-month moratorium on new construction in West Bank settlements.

One day after a fence-mending meeting with Obama at the White House, Netanyahu repeated a call for a restart of peace talks with Abbas.

Palestinians have reacted cautiously to Netanyahu's promise of "concrete steps" within weeks to persuade them to hold direct talks.

Netanyahu said he was prepared to take steps including "additional easing of movements" and some economic projects.

"The point is, we are prepared to do them. But what we want to see finally is one thing: We want President Abbas to grasp my hand ... to shake it, sit down and negotiate a final settlement of peace between Israel and the Palestinians," he said.

Netanyahu was scheduled to meet UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and address U.S. Jewish leaders in New York on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas' spokesman in Gaza, said his Islamist organization "refutes Obama's call for direct negotiations," which he said would only serve as a "cover up" for continuing the occupation. He also charged that Obama's and Netanyahu's statements again showed "there is no hope for change in U.S. foreign policy."

He additionally rejected Obama's praise of Israeli steps to ease its economic blockade of Gaza, saying "we want the siege to be completely lifted."

Tuesday's White House meeting - Netanyahu's first since a chilly reception in March - revived heated differences within his largely hardline cabinet on whether Israel should extend its partial moratorium on Israeli construction in the West Bank.

Ministers of the left-to-center Labor Party support an extension, while hawks in Netanyahu's nationalist Likud and in other right-wing and ultra-right coalition parties oppose it.

The moratorium, which excludes Jewish neighborhoods built in annexed East Jerusalem, is due to expire on September 26.

Ultra-right Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman insisted Wednesday that Israel has not made "any promises" to Obama regarding an extension of the settlement moratorium and that the issue had not been the main one on the agenda.

"We must ensure that normal life continues [in the settlements] for those who were sent there by all the governments of Israel," Lieberman, who himself lives in a settlement near Jerusalem, told Israel Radio.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak of the Labor Party insisted, however, that there was more to the White House meeting than published. He said Netanyahu had shown Obama that he was serious and prepared to act regarding the peace process. That was the reason for the Labour Party to stay in the coalition, he said.

Barak has been criticized internally for serving as a "fig leaf" in Netanyahu's otherwise right-wing coalition, despite the absence of a meaningful peace process.

Direct talks with the previous Israeli government of Ehud Olmert collapsed when Israel bombed the Gaza Strip 18 months ago to suppress rocket fire from Palestinian Islamists headed by the Hamas movement, which rejects a peace treaty with Israel.

In his Cairo speech 13 months ago, Obama said: "The U.S. does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop."

U.S. pressure restarted the process in 2009. But Abbas was politically embarrassed when Obama later retreated on his call for a total settlement freeze.

A report this week by the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem says more than 300,000 Israelis now live on 42 percent of the West Bank land where the Palestinians want to establish their future country in a "two-state solution" with Israel.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
Oh dude, what a piece of disinformation. AIPAC pay you to post that crap?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 7, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
Yeah, no kidding Philo.

I've read some truth-stretching spin before, but geez...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
Whew! What's that smell? Oh man you forgot to flush. Now go wash your hands.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
Never Jeff, not once.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/disloyalty-on-the-part-of-the-occupied-1.300489

Published 01:42 07.07.10Latest update 01:42 07.07.10
Disloyalty on the part of the occupied
Were it not for Mohammed Abu Tir's red beard, this would perhaps be only a marginal news item: Israel is working to expel four Palestinian residents of Jerusalem affiliated with Hamas from the city of their birth.

By Amira Hass
Were it not for Mohammed Abu Tir's red beard, this would perhaps be only a marginal news item: Israel is working to expel four Palestinian residents of Jerusalem affiliated with Hamas from the city of their birth.

There are those who see this expulsion as demonstrating a proud national stance, but it is already turning out to be a political boomerang. Abu Tir is under arrest, because he did not leave Jerusalem on June 19. His colleagues - Khaled Abu Arafa, formerly the Jerusalem affairs minister in Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh's government, and Ahmed Atun and Mohammed Totah, both members of the Palestinian Legislative Council on behalf of an Islamic list identified with Hamas - have moved into the Red Cross office in East Jerusalem.


Four years ago, then-interior minister Roni Bar-On (Kadima ) revoked their status as Jerusalem residents on the grounds that they had violated their minimal obligation of loyalty to the state of Israel, its citizens and its residents. After that, they were arrested, released and defined as illegals obligated to depart from "Israel's borders."

Since the end of 1995, the Interior Ministry - headed first by Haim Ramon (Labor ) and subsequently by Eliyahu Suissa (Shas ) - has pursued a policy of mass revocation of residency (with a brief hiatus under Natan Sharansky of Yisrael B'Aliyah, and even that only after an intense public struggle ). The record was set in 2008, when 4,577 men and women were stripped of their right to reside in their own city by the Interior Ministry, then headed by Meir Sheetrit (Kadima ).

Nevertheless, by revoking the residency of these three parliamentarians and one former cabinet minister, Israel has set a record of a new sort: Until now, Jerusalem residency had been revoked exclusively on the basis of administrative pretexts, such as prolonged stays outside the city.

These wicked pretexts derive from the liberty Israel has taken of applying the Entry to Israel Law - used primarily to grant residency permits to non-Jewish immigrants - to residents of occupied and annexed East Jerusalem. But the inhabitants of East Jerusalem did not decide to "come" to Israel; it is Israel that "came" to them.

The current case, however, is the first time Israel has denied Jerusalem residency on political grounds.

The United States and Europe urged Israel to let the Palestinians hold elections in 2006. The participation of an Islamic list affiliated with Hamas was a well-known condition for enabling these elections to take place, including in Jerusalem.

Yet the moment that list won a sweeping victory, Israel embarked on a campaign of punishment against its members, and especially the Jerusalemites among them, for "serving" in the Palestinian Authority.

This, in and of itself, represented a new peak of political cynicism (and another slap in the face to PA President Mahmoud Abbas ). It has been exceeded in its cynicism only by Israel's demand that the occupied evince loyalty to the occupier, lest he be banished.

With this expulsion order, Israel has managed to unite the entire Palestinian arena. The protest tent the three men set up in the courtyard of the Red Cross office has become a pilgrimage site. And Abbas has met twice with those slated for banishment.

Time will tell whether his promise to have the decree rescinded can be kept. In the meantime, however, the political movement that is his main rival is again becoming the symbol of the national struggle and of steadfastness in waging it.

Even those who, for political and cultural reasons, are sworn opponents of the Palestinian Islamic movement know that Israel is setting a precedent.

Today, people affiliated with Hamas are being expelled from Jerusalem. Tomorrow, if the PA falls apart or dares to reject Israel's dictates, it will be known Fatah activists who will be stripped of their residency due to "disloyalty to the occupation."

Following the flotilla raid, the expulsions from Sheikh Jarrah and the royal plans for Silwan, this is yet another match that Israel is tossing into the tinderbox. And it is one that even its friends will find it hard to ignore.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
Uh huh...




Jeff you are incessantly making proclamations and prognostication. None of which have ever come to pass. Your track record is a tad embarrassing. Like your trying to claim a victory in debate with me.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jul 7, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
talk talk talk talk talk talk.....
soon this will hit 1000 posts. who wins?
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 7, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
indeed;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIehtCNgvrQ&feature=player_embedded


western values
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
I'll bet those boys had a good time in the showers later.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVslfvT9Ss&annotation_id=annotation_416850&feature=iv


Jeff, can you believe they scrawled the Star of David on doors.
Seems Anti-Semitic to me.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
You lose Dafty.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
With the eviction of the whack job fundamentalist unsettlers would be a good start.


And Fats, puhleaseeee give me a break.
Whether Gaza or the West Bank it's still about the Palestinians.
You on the other hand, when confronted with an inconvenient truth about Palestine, always switch to Iran or Saudi Arabia.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
But you just tried to say living conditions are peachy in Gaza. WTF?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
How about we start with a full moratorium on home destructions, evictions and new settlement development? Then move on to evicting the whackos from Hebron.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 8, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
And yesterday illegal Mexican immigrants invaded a US military base, this is an act of war.

War war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war.

Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq

Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan

Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel Israel

Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran Iran


Just tryin' to help Fattrad get his fix for the day!!

survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 9, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
From the Cyprus thread.

"J-Lo canceled her concert and the Turks are mad. This will give Israel the excuse they need to bomb Iran. It's coming soon, watch for it."


I'm having waaay too much fun at your expense these days Jeff!
I just get on a roll once in awhile...thanks.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
I see that Fatty got #999, which of course is #666, upside down.

Upside down seems a natural situation for him.

His last post seems rather upside down - all sorts of trivia and gibberish.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
apogee

climber
Jul 14, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
TGT, you're a nazi scum.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 16, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
I'm sure that little article made your dick hard.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Jul 16, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Glen Beck has Nazi Tourettes

... and many on this site have Islam tourettes!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
Inside Philo's Gaza

http://www.alresalahtalk.net/vb/showthread.php?t=3636<br />
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 21, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
Wow, the FBI still works correctly. A$$clown taken down-doobie-do-down-down!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/21/virginia-man-allegedly-provided-support-al-shabaab/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 21, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
South Park Jihadi busted

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0721101southpark1.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
Fatty,
You forgot to mention that Iran has 100 'naval units' for every US Navy ship!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
Iranian "naval unit"

bluering

Trad climber
CA
Jul 28, 2010 - 11:19am PT
From Eqyptian cleric Hussam Fawzi Jabar;

Hussam Fawzi Jabar: "This is the nature of the Jews. By nature, they abhor keeping their commitments. By nature, they hate peace. By nature, they love treachery, betrayal, deception, killing, and blood. This is their nature.

"It is very sad to see some of our own people, who speak our own tongue, try to convince their peoples that the Jews are peace-loving, that a solution to the satisfaction of both parties can be reached with them. I say that whoever says this and tries to convince others should either deny what is said in the Koran and the Sunna, and accept what the Jews say as truth, or else deny what the Jews say and accept what is said in the Koran and the Sunna. There is no third alternative.

"The Jews are not happy living among their neighbors unless they are harboring hatred toward them, betraying, and deceiving them. They are always ready and prepared to generate reasons for this. This is why the West in its entirety got rid of the Jews, by creating a new country for them in Palestine. They spew them out away from them, and gave them a new country, at the expense of Islam and the Muslims.

"At the same time, the West uses the Jews as a pitchfork with which to stab the giant [Islam] whenever it begins to awaken. If Egypt arises, Israel goes to war with it. If Syria arises, Israel begins clashes with it. If Lebanon arises, Israel starts conflicts with it. When Iraq arose, global Zionism mobilized the entire Western world to occupy Iraq. When Afghanistan arose... And so on and so forth... It stabs the giant [Islam] whenever it wants to awaken.

"One of the most amazing things I have read is that Hitler said: 'I could have annihilated all the Jews of the world, but I left some of them, so that you would understand why I did this to them.' Hitler was right to say what he said and to do what he did to the Jews.

"When Pakistan separated from India in 1947, nine million Pakistani Muslims were killed although India had vouched for their safety. There is clear enmity [toward the Muslims] among all nations. Today, India practices compulsory sterilization of Muslim men in order to curb the growth of their population.

"In Communist and atheist Russia, they would put the Muslims into meat grinders, and they would come out from the other side as minced meat or cold cuts. All this because [the Russians] believe in a religion other than Islam."

Nice...
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
"bluey,

Nice catch on the Egyptian cleric, just reinforces my "Clash" theory."


looks more like ethnic cleansing to me;



http://mondoweiss.net/2010/07/the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine.html
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Jul 28, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
Ahad, nice spin.

The Bedouins were illegally squatting on the land and were chased off.

Ethnic cleansing? Tell that to the Christians in Pakistan or Nigeria.

Next....
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 28, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2010 - 08:20am PT
spin indeed blue,

and yes fats there is always more to the story...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-arabs-have-no-choice-but-to-build-illegally-1.304777


you guys should really sign up if you haven't already;

http://giyus.org/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 29, 2010 - 10:13am PT
Yep, a lot more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MEtQU5x5sE&feature=player_embedded
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
nothing sinister fats,
just business as usual. move out the riff raff and special financing available for the right folks;

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/state-to-help-army-officers-move-to-negev-1.304286
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 30, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
http://debka.com/article/8940/

Apply salt liberally, but?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
Did you get a chance to talk with Bill and Hillary about this on Saturday? Their daughter has just married someone who is (nominally) Jewish, too.
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Aug 3, 2010 - 12:07am PT
Their daughter has just married someone who is (nominally) Jewish, too.

Aside from Fatty and a couple other Jews here, Jews are committing suicide, they may as well walk their brethren into the ovens of Iran...

It's like the Manhattan lib Jews forget history...f*#king fools. History will repeat itself.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 4, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
The UC Irvine Apostate.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/campus-apostate-former-uc-irvine-muslim-student-union-member-%e2%80%94-and-former-muslim-%e2%80%94-speaks-out/?singlepage=true

An eye opener.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 4, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Looks like the bomb tossed at Achmedjihad was coordinated or a diversion.

No more refinery!

http://debka.com/article/8949/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 7, 2010 - 10:41am PT
If murdering unarmed doctors on a mercy mission is a clash, here ya are.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100807/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan;_ylt=Avj4NFKgEVQPq7vieHyjb_Cs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJmaTd0Y3V1BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwODA3L2FzX2FmZ2hhbmlzdGFuBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMwRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNmdWxsbmJzcHN0b3I-



"KABUL, Afghanistan – Ten members of a medical team, including six Americans, were shot and killed by militants as they were returning from providing eye treatment and other health care in remote villages in northern Afghanistan, a spokesman for the team said Saturday.

Dirk Frans, director of the International Assistance Mission, said one German, one Briton and two Afghans also were part of the team that made the three-week trip to Nuristan province. They drove to the province, left their vehicles and hiked for hours with pack horses over mountainous terrain to reach the Parun valley in the province's northwest.

Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid told The Associated Press that they killed the foreigners because they were "spying for the Americans" and "preaching Christianity."

Frans said the International Assistance Mission, the longest serving nongovernmental organization operating in Afghanistan, is registered as a nonprofit Christian organization but does not proselytize.

"This tragedy negatively impacts our ability to continue serving the Afghan people as IAM has been doing since 1966," the charity said in a statement. "We hope it will not stop our work that benefits over a quarter of a million Afghans each year."

The team, made up of doctors, nurses and logistics personnel, was attacked as it was returning to Kabul after the two-week mission in Nuristan, Frans said. They had decided to travel through Badakhshan province to return to the capital because they thought it would be the safest route, Frans said.

Among the dead was team leader Tom Little, an optometrist from Delmar, New York, who has been working in Afghanistan for more than 30 years, Frans said. Another relief organization, Bridge Afghanistan, said on its website that the group included one of its members, Dr. Karen Woo of London.

Little, who oversaw eye hospitals in Kabul and two other major cities as well as small clinics in three smaller towns, had been expelled by the Taliban government in August 2001 after the arrest of eight Christian aid workers — two Americans and six Germans — for allegedly trying to convert Afghans to Christianity. He returned to live in Afghanistan after the Taliban government was toppled in November 2001 by U.S.-backed forces.

Frans said he lost contact with Little on Wednesday. On Friday, a third Afghan member of the team, who survived the attack, called to report the killings. A fourth Afghan member of the team was not killed because he took a different route home because he had family in Jalalabad, Frans said.

According to Frans, two members of the team worked for IAM, two were former IAM workers and four others were affiliated with other organizations, which he did not disclose. He said five of the Americans were men and one was a woman. The Briton and German also were women.

Gen. Agha Noor Kemtuz, police chief in Badakhshan province, said the victims, who had been shot, were found Friday next to three bullet-riddled four-wheel drive vehicles in Kuran Wa Munjan district. He said villagers had warned the team that the area was dangerous, but the foreigners said they were doctors and weren't afraid. He said local police said about 10 gunmen robbed them and killed them one by one.

He said the two dead Afghans were interpreters from Bamiyan and Panjshir provinces. The third Afghan who survived "told me he was shouting and reciting the holy Quran and saying 'I am Muslim. Don't kill me,'" Kemtuz said.

Frans told The Associated Press that he was skeptical the Taliban were responsible and that the team had studied security conditions carefully before proceeding with the mission. The team trekked from village to village during the two weeks, treating about 400 people for eye disorders and other illnesses.

"We are a humanitarian organization. We had no security people. We had no armed guards. We had no weapons," he said.

In a blog posting last month, Woo said the expedition would include an eye doctor, a dental surgeon "as well as me as the general practioner."

"The trek will not be easy; it will take three weeks and be done on foot and with packhorses — no vehicles can access the mountainous terrain," she wrote. "The expedition will require a lot of physical and mental resolve and will not be without risk but ultimately, I believe that the provision of medical treatment is of fundamental importance and that the effort is worth it in order to assist those that need it most."

Elsewhere, five Afghans were killed and 13 were wounded Saturday when a bomb struck a police vehicle in the Nahri-Saraj district of Helmand province in the south, the Interior Ministry said. Four of the dead were police, but all but one of the wounded were civilians. In Gereshk district, one Afghan policeman and a civilian were killed and 16 other people were wounded Saturday morning when a bomb exploded in a market, said Kamaluddin Khan, local security chief.

The NATO-led coalition also reported the arrests late Friday of two suspected insurgents in Kandahar province and of "several" suspected members of the Haqqani network, a Taliban faction with close ties to al-Qaida, in the eastern province of Khost.

The coalition also said two NATO troops were killed during an explosion Saturday in southern Afghanistan. NATO did not release any details of the incident or the nationalities of the troops.

___

Associated Press writers Amir Shah and Deb Riechmann in Kabul and Mirwais Khan in Kandahar contributed to this report."

bluering

Trad climber
CA
Aug 7, 2010 - 11:06am PT
f*#king savages....


EDIT: There's this good news though...
http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2010/08/05/lord-god-free-at-last-rifqa-barys-victory-in-ohio/
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 9, 2010 - 12:16am PT
There is no way the US is going to tangle with Iran. Bush was stupid enough to do it, but thank god he is gone.

Who has decided that military action is inevitable? Whomever it was, you need to quit repeating what you hear and get the info to come to an informed conclusion of your own.

What a bunch of baloney.
Sir loin of leisure...

Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
Aug 9, 2010 - 12:24am PT
there will be war with iran soon...
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 9, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
The international community's position that it is preferable to fully settle disputes [rather] than to recognize refugees' right of return [is] supported by a recent ruling by the European Court of Human Rights. The court debated the right of the Greek refugees who were expelled from northern Cyprus in 1974, and five months ago it ruled that due to the time that has passed, it would be wrong to rectify the situation by allowing them to return to their homes and expelling those who currently live in the area." (Ynet News)

By this logic the Jew's claim to Palestine as a "home land" is a non-starter as well!
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 9, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
Jeff,

You definitely failed logic.....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 9, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
The Jews were certainly not the first people/civilization in Palestine - read the Tanakh for details. First they passed through on their way to a sojourn in Egypt. Then they returned and occupied the place, smiting and killing the previous inhabitants. Noting that the Tanakh (old testament) was written by Hebrews, who had every reason to downplay the presence of others in the 'promised land' of the 'chosen people'. (Historical fiction...) As time goes on, it's becoming pretty clear that the Hebrews (Habiru) were just one tribe amongst many squabbling in Palestine, and didn't have control of much until about the 11th century BCE.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
I find it interesting that conservatives get their panties all in a twist anytime you say the words 'international treaty' because of the assertion they involve pre-empting the U.S. Constitution. But then they have no problem at all with the subrogation of U.S. interests to Israeli interests. And anyone who thinks those interests are the same has been dropping way too much acid.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
Oh, and the show trial of Omar Khadr really sums up what is so pathetic about notions of an Islamic threat to the West and the whole U.S. response to 9/11.

We've spent MILLIONS to shoot, detain, treat, transport and try a 15 year old boy who ended up in the middle of a firefight. Now, he may have been on the wrong side of that firefight, but the idea that some random 15 year old boy could somehow come to represent a 'high value' terrorist or al-Qaeda threat to the United States is about as compelling an indictment of the current wars as you could create. That this kid (and the Uyghurs) ended up in Camp Delta at all tells you how ludicrous the whole deal down there is and highlights what a political show boondoggle it all is.

Hey, out of 775 they've had maybe - maybe - a dozen 'high value' suspects worth the bother, the rest are all bullshit like this kid who may - may - be guilty of heaving a grenade during a fire fight. Guess what it is that people do in battles, they fight, and that's what the kid was doing. What do you suppose it would cost to set up a military tribunal to try every guy who took a shot at us during these two wars? Ridiculous.

It's one thing going through all this bullshit and trampling both our Constitution and the Geneva convention for a Himmler, OBL, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - but this kid, it's all so wrong on so many levels that the military and the administration should be ashamed of themselves on fiscal reasons if not moral ones.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
I think you confuse Libertarians for Conservatives

Is that the latest refuge of all the folks who have fled the Bush camp...?

P.S. What do the real Libertarians think about this rush of suddenly libertarian-minded republicans? Or have all the right-leaning Libertarians gone Tea Partying and left a vacuum for you guys?
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 9, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
This "evidence" that war with Iran is imminent is nothing more than a bunch of opinion pieces. But what disturbs me more than the warped perspective and closed mind of the author is I think he wants this war with Iran.

War is always bad. It is the worst case scenario, to be avoided at all costs. Iran has been the regional power for 3000 years, and the minute we leave Iraq they are going to move right in, and theres nothing we can do about it. If they want to make a nuclear weapon we cant do jack about that either.

Fear of Iranian influence in the middle east, concern over nukes, exportation of terrorism or threats to Israel are not grounds for war. Not for the US anyway.

Its human nature to portray our favorite team in the best possible light,
but Israel has been far more intractable, arrogant and demanding than the arabs over the palestinian issue. They also hold military hedgemony in the region and can fight their own war if thats what they want.

Lest we forget, there was a nation called Palestine up until 1947, when it was eliminated from the map by the colonial powers that created Israel. They could have given the palestinians a strip of barren desert to call a homeland, but they didnt even get that. For Israel to ignore the palestinians need for a homeland is the height of hubris and shows an alarming lack of compassion and humanity. How quickly they have forgotten that they were once in the same situation
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Aug 9, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
War is always bad. It is the worst case scenario, to be avoided at all costs. Iran has been the regional power for 3000 years, and the minute we leave Iraq they are going to move right in, and theres nothing we can do about it. If they want to make a nuclear weapon we cant do jack about that either.

So why not just give up and hand it over to Iran, right?

And there's plenty we can do to prevent Iran's nukes. Open your mind.

For Israel to ignore the palestinians need for a homeland is the height of hubris and shows an alarming lack of compassion and humanity. How quickly they have forgotten that they were once in the same situation

Who is the less compassionate and less reasonable partner in peace???
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 9, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
Oh, and to say that the palestinians should happily assimilate into syria, jordan or lebanon is ridiculous.

Thats the same as saying that if some superpower redrew the map and eliminated the USA we should be happy to become canadian or mexican and not want our country back. Get real.
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Aug 9, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
Well, Jordan won't have them, remember Black September??? Nothing like good 'brothers'...
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 9, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
1- we already handed Iraq over to Iran when we deposed Hussein. No matter how long we stay, the minute we leave, Iran takes over. Who is going to stop them, Turkey? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Iran and Iraq have held each other in check for decades. Its long been a given that if either nation became sufficiently weak, the other would take over. By taking out Iraq we have literally handed it to Iran, its only a matter of time.

2- We are currently doing about all we can to counter Irans nuclear program and it only fuels their resolve to get it done. They have the resources and technology, and there aint a thing we can do, including go to war with them, to stop it.

Do people have some idea that Iran would be a pushover? As depleted as our human and material resources are after years of fighting 2 wars that we still cant win, any success in Iran would be short lived and come at a bitter price. This is a fools dream.
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 9, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
you are wrong sir, check any map prior to 1947. Where Israel now sits you will find a larger country named Palestine.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
The 15 yearold members of the Crips are pretty seasoned fighters.

True, but we don't spend millions to try them or bring them to the Supreme Court. As for "seasoned fighters", here's Omar's timeline for becoming seasoned. One month from alleged 'weapons training' to his first firefight where he was present as a translator.

In early 2002, he was living in Waziristan with his mother and younger sister while his father visited infrequently, and took up beading his mother's clothes as a hobby...

According to charges signed by military commission officer Susan J. Crawford, Khadr received "one-on-one" weapons training in June, as his visits home became less frequent...

In the early morning of July 27, 2002, a team composed of 19th Special Forces Group, the 505th Infantry Regiment and a "militia", composed of approximately twenty[28] Afghan fighters loyal to mercenary warlord Pacha Khan Zadran...

This kid is a real high value prisoner and threat to the security and interests of the United States of America. If we don't try him it will be a devastating blow to the war on terror.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 10, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/08/02/gulf-states-order-blackberry-users-to-cover-their-phones-in-a-tiny-burqa/
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 12, 2010 - 02:10am PT
fattrad,

My point was that there once existed a palestinian homeland and a place called palestine before Israel was created, and none after. That the palestinians got screwed by foriegn powers was not Israels fault. I do think that the jews should show more empathy and understanding toward the palestinians plight, having been similarly dispossessed themselves in the recent past. Israels apparent attitude of "we got ours, screw you" on this issue, and their lack of concern for the the humanitarian tragedy caused by the blockade makes it hard to see them in a good light.

Let me also say that I admire Israel and support the jewish state, but not everything they do.

I dont know what you mean about the weapons.

The thread has become a fight over opinions at this point, and I respect your opinion and your right to it. I believe that intolerance is the biggest problem in the world today, and i sure dont want to add any more.

shalom, keep up the good fight
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 12, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 12, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
The fact that Hamas was a creation of the Mossad would be almost funny if it wasn't such an effective tactic.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 12, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
Mossad creating Hamas is right up there with the CIA creating al Qaeda.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 13, 2010 - 04:02am PT
The threat from the MidEast, while not trivial, is a flea compared to the strategic elephant that is an increasingly modern and educated China. A new generation of technocrats and wealthy nationalists seek to rebuild national esteem and pride and to reclaim a sphere of influence over the western Pacific.

China's People Liberation Army demanded a tough response to U.S. plans to send an aircraft carrier to naval exercises near its coast, saying that "respect" was at stake.

The Israeli/Palestinian impasse is a primary cause of unrest in the MidEast and a distraction which grows more costly [to the U.S.] with each passing year because it keeps our eyes and resources on entirely the wrong strategic threats.

The "clash" is simply static we can no longer afford.
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 13, 2010 - 04:44am PT
A new generation of technocrats and wealthy nationalists seek to rebuild national esteem and pride and to reclaim a sphere of influence over the western Pacific.

Theres another place where "technocrats" and wealthy nationalists reside, where national pride and esteem runs high, who maintains a worldwide sphere of influence backed by a global military presence. The USA.

Because china has emerged as a second superpower doesnt make them our enemy, and because we cant kick their ass doesnt make them a threat.

Its not surprising that china is seeking to expand regional influence, because thats what nations do.

If no threat is clearly eminent then we better look for one, right? If we dont have any real enemies we better go out and find some, lest peace break out.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Aug 13, 2010 - 09:20am PT
fats,
jeffrey goldberg (israeli- american who has served in the idf) is once again trying his best to provoke a war & drag the us into israel's fight. neocon scum who should be tried as a traitor for his part in promoting the run up to iraq;

http://original.antiwar.com/mcgovern/2010/08/12/a-neocon-preps-us-for-war-with-iran/

btw; were you advocating a nuclear strike on iran or merely stating israel's only guaranteed military option? blackmail indeed
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 13, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
Somewhere over the rainbow.
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Aug 14, 2010 - 12:43am PT
Too late with the party line, Israels nukes have been documented.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 14, 2010 - 12:54am PT
Too late with the party line, Israels nukes have been documented.

Fattrad is partially correct, as the 100 GBU-28's we delivered to them will do the job, however, they are not an 'over-the-horizon' ordnance.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
Look out for them paleo witches!

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=309012
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 19, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
Fats, did you ever consider that you may be a reincarnated cartographer from the 19th century British Empire?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 19, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
Right now things can be resolved with conventional weapons over the horizon.

Resolved. That's precious, and so sterile!
Hey, it's a new diplomatic initiative!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 20, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
Dr F's version of a clash would have Republicans and democrats hurling invectives and limp-wristed insults at each other (and the Dems would be winning in his dreams). Come to think of it, I suppose we'd all prefer that to the deadly way they have to play it in the middle east.

May the Lion yet lay with the lamb. Praise Allah.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 24, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
Looks like one of the chumps on the "Gaza flotilla" was a convicted criminal hijacker from the Chechnyan conflict.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=185741

Humanitarian mission, yeah right....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
More like going through the motions, it seems to me. Obama's priorities are things like the economy, employment, and health care. Neither he nor the US public cares much about unsolvable problems in the middle east, beyond keeping a lid on the Israelis and the Iranians, and getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan. He hasn't invested much capital toward a resolution of the Palestine/Israel problems, and has little to gain unless there is dramatic change - not likely, given an extremist Israeli government, equally extreme Palestinians, and surrounding states that don't really care.

Israel simply isn't very important in the bigger picture, certainly not as important as the Jewish/Israeli and theo-con lobbies, and the New York Times, would have us believe.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 26, 2010 - 02:05am PT
Did the poll ask whether Israel, and solution of the Palestine-Israel issue, even made the top ten list of significant concerns of inhabitants of those countries? Not likely it did - those countries and their peoples have more important things to worry about than an endless ugly squabble which has little relevance to them and which they can do little if anything about.

It would be a bit like asking the people of the US if they thought North Korea was a growing threat. Many might say yes - but almost all would agree that there many greater threats.

ps I got #1,111! How cool is that!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 26, 2010 - 03:20am PT
Fattrad - exactly how many more Americans lives are you personally prepared to sacrifice in order for Israel to continue to avoid a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 26, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
Hey Rondelusional, where, exactly, is a Taliban connection?
Other than in your fairy world.




Maybe you could present a link? Because your lies and disinformation already plays 24/7 on FauxNoise.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 26, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
Following the show in Washington, the current Israeli leadership will find a way to thwart the direct negotiations because they cannot finalize a deal. Any Israeli or Jewish leader who says something that is interpreted as any kind of concession on the right of return knows that he shall immediately be accused of treason. Moreover, the Israeli leadership cannot present its public with a deal that would include less than the dream outlined by Zionism: "One Jewish state with the holy Jerusalem as its capital."







And, Rondelusional, I checked your stupid assertion through the news services. I didn't even look at FuX. No mention of a Taliban connection in Canada. Ya punter.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 26, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
Ron appears to be partly right, but the devil as alway may be in the details.

Three men arrested Wednesday were preparing to build improvised explosive devices for attacks within Canada, police say. They were also raising money to fund improvised explosive device, or IED, attacks on Canadian troops in Afghanistan, RCMP chief superintendent Serge Therriault said Thursday at a news conference in Ottawa. Two of the accused, Hiva Mohammad Alizadeh, 30, and Misbahuddin Ahmed, 26, were taken into custody in Ottawa on Wednesday. The third, 28-year-old Khurram Syed Sher, was arrested in London, Ont. Therriault said investigators believe the three men are part of a terrorist group in Canada and had links to international terrorism.
How real a threat these people posed remains to be seen. They could be anything from some mouthy yahoos to a real threat. Given that it is August (slow news month), and given the need for the RCMP and CSIS to be seen to be doing something to justify their existence (see also 1984), it may be much overstated, or not.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/RCMP+Project+Samosa+suspects+were+preparing+build+IEDs/3446587/story.html#ixzz0xkB3e7RW (The Sun is a reputable, though somewhat conservative, Vancouver paper.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 26, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
Nope - I don't practice in Ontario, and don't do criminal law. But somehow suspect that the RCMP if not CSIS is overselling the case. The RCMP has been getting some terrible publicity lately, for scandalous behaviour, and would probably like to recoup some losses.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 27, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
Fattrad - exactly how many more Americans lives are you personally prepared to sacrifice in order for Israel to continue to avoid a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians?

You didn't answer the question - and blaming the impasse on the Palestinians is disingenuous at best given it's Israel who does not want a settlement on any terms.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 30, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
Fox news

State Department Condemns Rabbi Who Prayed for Death to All Palestinians
*
Aug 29, 2010 5:22 PM EDT
The U.S. State Department on Sunday issued a statement criticizing an Israeli rabbi who reportedly wished God would send a plague to kill off all Palestinians, including the "evil hater of Israel," Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

"We regret and condemn the inflammatory statements by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said, noting that the rabbi's comments do not reflect the views of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"These remarks are not only deeply offensive, but incitement such as this hurts the cause of peace. As we move forward to re-launch peace negotiations, it is important that actions by people on all sides help to advance our effort, not hinder it," Crowley said.

The inflammatory statements by the rabbi, reportedly delivered during Saturday prayer service, come just days before Abbas and Netanyahu are scheduled to arrive in Washington for direct peace talks stalled for the past two years.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:18am PT
OIL? Now the Israelis have to worry abut the US invading them?


Thought you'd appreciate this cartoon Fatty.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 7, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
There is no clash, only weak-willed American presidents who refuse to lean on Israel.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 7, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
Took the words right out of my mouth healyje.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 7, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
To stop sacrificing young American lives.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 7, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
It serves a broad spectrum of interests to have low level conflict between
Arabs and Israel. Be assured our President has been instructed
how to maintain it.

dirtbag

climber
Sep 7, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
Once again, Cornshit has shown himself to be nothing but a God damned liar, the lowest form of sh#t on Earth. He must be one miserable dude.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 7, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
Hei dirtbag - here's a little reminder for you on how Barack has been 'instructed'.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7076431.ece


fattrad
You're making good points as always. We've all seen that every Israeli past concession has resulted a brief time later in the death of hundreds of it’s citizens and mini-wars.

The Obama peace plan calls for Israel and the Palestinian Authority to hold a series of regular meetings over the coming year. Any concessions
would mean another war. So weird.



philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 7, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
You're making good points as always. We've all seen that every Israeli past concession has resulted a brief time later in the death of hundreds of it’s citizens and mini-wars.

Care to cite any references for your claim of hundreds killed every concession?
The standard death rate is 3 to 5 Palestinians for every israeli.
When Israel beats it's war drum the rate goes up to 10 to 12 dead Palestinians for ever Israeli dead.

So how about some credible sources. And no Fattrad does not count as credible.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 7, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
Cornshit: you're also the village idiot.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 7, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
"Graciously returned"?????

At least you acknowledged that they took it in the first place.



More deaths can be attributed to zionist terrorist groups than all the Palestinian actions combined. By a long shot.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 7, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
Curly is a good job outsourcer.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 8, 2010 - 09:46am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/renew-our-days-1.312852

Published 02:14 08.09.10Latest update 02:14 08.09.10
Renew our days
On the eve of 5771, the need to disengage from the stigma of the "occupation state" is already seen by many, even within the ranks of the realistic right, not as a luxury but as an emergency lifesaving operation.

Haaretz Editorial

"Hope is the thing with feathers," wrote the American poet Emily Dickinson. In Israel, the hope for peace is today like a plucked, limp-winged bird that many people, including the foreign minister, believe is not even fit for the pre-Yom Kippur kapparot sacrifice.

Nevertheless, if there is any hope for the peace process at the dawn of the Jewish Year of 5771, it is pinned primarily on the historical irony that occasionally results in our region when the extremist turns conciliatory or the peacenik gets caught up in war, and occasionally forced the parties into doing the unavoidable.


Over the past year, however, it has been hinted that our future will be determined not by declarations and diplomatic evasiveness but rather by deep tectonic shifts. Last year on the eve of Rosh Hashanah Israel received a holiday gift, bitter as wormwood, in the form of the Goldstone report on Operation Cast Lead. The United Nations report on the Gaza aid flotilla incident is scheduled for release next week.

These two reports, problematic as they are, symbolize the shocking erosion of Israel's international image over the past year: an erosion that is gradually expanding from a performers' boycott to a popular consumer boycott and even to loathing on the part of leaders, and which sometimes no longer distinguishes between the settlements and the Green Line, between the "occupation" and Israel's very right to exist.

One can dismiss this as an atavistic wave of hatred that is linked to the latest incarnation of anti-Semitism, and to respond, as various ultranationalist groups that have cropped up in Israel this year propose, by going on the offensive in support of an inert "Zionism" that is centered around the settlements and the Israel Defense Forces, in an effort to annihilate freedom of speech in the media, academia and the Supreme Court.

One can also, on the other hand, try to break down the walls that are closing in on Israel by shaking off the foreign-policy status quo that is strangling our existence and our future.

On the eve of 5771, the need to disengage from the stigma of the "occupation state" is already seen by many, even within the ranks of the realistic right, not as a luxury but as an emergency lifesaving operation. We can only hope that it's not too late to wish that Israel, dynamic and vibrant, will once again extend its wings fully within the family of nations.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 8, 2010 - 09:49am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/anti-israel-economic-boycotts-are-gaining-speed-1.312210

Published 01:19 05.09.10Latest update 01:19 05.09.10
Anti-Israel economic boycotts are gaining speed
The sums involved are not large, but their international significance is huge. Boycotts by governments gives a boost to boycotts by non-government bodies around the world.

By Nehemia Shtrasler



The entire week was marked by boycotts. It began with a few dozen theater people boycotting the new culture center in Ariel, and continued with a group of authors and artists publishing a statement of support on behalf of those theater people. Then a group of 150 lecturers from various universities announced they would not teach at Ariel College or take part in any cultural events in the territories. Naturally, all that spurred a flurry of responses, including threats of counter-sanctions.


That was all at the local level. There's another boycott, an international one, that's gaining momentum - an economic boycott. Last week the Chilean parliament decided to adopt the boycott of Israeli products made in the settlements, at the behest of the Palestinian Authority, which imposed a boycott on such products several months ago.

In September 2009, Norway's finance minister announced that a major government pension fund was selling its shares in Elbit Systems because of that company's role in building the separation fence. In March, a major Swedish investment fund said it would eschew Elbit Systems shares on the same grounds. Last month the Norwegian pension fund announced that it was selling its holdings in Africa Israel and in its subsidiary Danya Cebus because of their involvement in constructing settlements in the occupied territories.

The sums involved are not large, but their international significance is huge. Boycotts by governments gives a boost to boycotts by non-government bodies around the world.

New world

Human-rights organizations in Europe are essentially running campaigns to boycott Israeli products. They are demonstrating at supermarkets, brandishing signs against Israeli goods. Worker organizations, with millions of members, send circulars to their people calling on them to forgo Israeli products.


Boycotting Israeli products in Ramallah

Photo by: AP
I talked with farmers who say there are retail chains in Europe no longer prepared to buy Israeli products. The same is true for a chain in Washington.

The world is changing before our eyes. Five years ago the anti-Israel movement may have been marginal. Now it is growing into an economic problem.

Until now boycott organizers had been on the far left. They have a new ally: Islamic organizations that have strengthened greatly throughout Europe in the past two decades. The upshot is a red and green alliance with a significant power base. The red side has a name for championing human rights, while the green side has money. Their union is what led to the success of the Turkish flotilla.

They note that boycott is an especially effective weapon against Israel because Israel is a small country, dependent on exports and imports. They also point to the success of the economic boycott against the apartheid regime in South Africa.

The anti-Israel tide rose right after Operation Cast Lead, as the world watched Israel pound Gaza with bombs on live television. No public-relations machine in the world could explain the deaths of hundreds of children, the destruction of neighborhoods and the grinding poverty afflicting a people under curfew for years. They weren't even allowed to bring in screws to build school desks. Then came the flotilla, complete with prominent peace activists, which ended in nine deaths, adding fuel to the fire.

But underlying the anger against Israel lies disappointment. Since the establishment of the state, and before, we demanded special terms of the world. We played on their feelings of guilt, for standing idle while six million Jews were murdered.

David Ben-Gurion called us a light unto the nations and we stood tall and said, we, little David, would stand strong and righteous against the great evil Goliath.

The world appreciated that message and even, according to the foreign press, enabled us to develop the atom bomb in order to prevent a second Holocaust.

But then came the occupation, which turned us into the evil Goliath, the cruel oppressor, a darkness on the nations. And now we are paying the price of presenting ourselves as righteous and causing disappointment: boycott.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 8, 2010 - 10:10am PT
I notice your choice of word "occupation " implying that it's palastinian land and the jews need to leave. It's what all the ememies of Israel call it, "occupation ". The palastinians won't stop with having east Jerusalem as their capitol. Next, they'll want west Jerusalem - the "palestinians " do not really want peace. This is proven over and over by the way that obama always has to force abbas to come to the table to discuss a peace agreement with Israel. Their goal is actually for the whole of Israel, and the jews pushed into the sea.They have said this over and over. Now that they have a muslim in white house, they have have become increasingly more bold. If Israel's leaders decided to go leftist and listened to Haaretz editors, then you can be sure that the occupation of the Jewish homeland by Jews will be history in the very near future.

This was a response to one of the above editorials. Proof that willful ignorance is not just an American dilema.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:25am PT
Hey Fats, if you are going to continue to complain about Saudi text books why not also condemn the Jewish text books?





http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-laws-of-education-for-violence-1.312850

An entire world lies behind the statement by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef that we should pray for the death of the "Ishmaelite-Palestinians" and, above all, for the death of Palestinian Authority President Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas ). Over 52 percent of the excited children who marched off to first grade this week and are defined in Israel as Jews were sent to ultra-Orthodox and religious schools where boys and girls are separated. Even the minority among those defined as Jews who went to a non-religious first grade are subject to a system in which the religious chief scientist expresses reactionary opinions on matters of science and religion, and as in the affair of the Im Tirtzu movement, and the weak objections of Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar only exacerbate the situation. At the same time, the number-two person in the ministry, the head of the Pedagogic Secretariat, is busy censoring non-religious textbooks, replacing civics lessons with "Judaism" and chooses to send his children to religious schools.

What will we teach in this religious autonomy which, with government funding, is gradually swallowing up the majority of Israeli children and constructing their world view? The words of Rabbi Yosef senior, and even more the hypocritical investigation of the book "The King's Torah" (Torat Hamelekh) which deals with "Laws of life and death between Israel and the nations" provide an important part of the answer. Not only is the government reacting with silent assent to the rebellion of rabbis Dov Lior and Yaakov Yosef (the son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef ), who refused to be questioned about their support for the book, in effect the education that most of the children defined as Jews will receive in first grade is close to the spirit of this book.


The authors of "The laws of killing Gentiles" did not invent a thing, and the government-financed education received by most first-graders continues a very specific halakhic (relating to Jewish law ) and kabbalist outlook. Unfortunately, according to the Orthodox interpretation of halakha, the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" does, in fact, apply to Jews only. Anyone who kills a non-Jew (the murder of a Gentile is not called "murder" ), according to halakha and Maimonides, is not supposed to be punished by human beings. The act is not permitted, but there is no punishment. For desecrating the Shabbat and "consensual sex with a married woman" the punishment is death. There is no real punishment for killing a non-Jew.

Rabbi Yehuda Halevi maintained that there are four levels in nature: inanimate, vegetable, animal, speaker. The speaker is the talking animal, the Gentile. Above them is the fifth and highest level, the Jew, the only one defined as a human being and human rights exist for him alone.

"The laws of killing Gentiles" is characterized by a practical discussion of the obligation of the individual in our time to carry out the edict that "the best among the Gentiles should be killed." But in principle the problem has existed in the Orthodox canon for many years. And this is what the children learn in the language of the Talmud: "You are called man and the nations of the world are not called man;" and in Maimonides: "Someone who sees a non-Jew drowning should not save him."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:37am PT
Yes. No question.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Not if that bird keeps chasing you away.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 9, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
Oh Crowley, that's awesome!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
Please to explain why the Iranians today released one of the three US "backpackers" who they arrested a year ago, for crossing the frontier.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
It is a health issue. She has a lump on her breast.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
Chalk one up to Iranian humanity.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Hey, this a non-climbing thread. You're not allowed to mention chalk here.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
Lol Anders.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/08/60-mile-traffic-jam-in-china-enters-its-9th-day/1?csp=obnetwork



A 60-mile traffic jam on one of China's major national freeways is now entering its 9th day, the Chinese media reports.

Global Times says residents along the Beijing-Tibet Freeway are cashing in by gouging stranded drivers, with noodles going for four times the normal price.

It all began Aug. 14 when thousands of Beijing-bound trucks got jammed up because of construction on a nearby roadway, National Freeway 110.

Despite the efforts of 400 police officers, the congestion is likely to last at least until Sept. 13 when the construction work is scheduled to be completed, the newspaper says.

(Posted by Doug Stanglin)



Now this is the civilization we will clash with. Once they figure out grid lock that is.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
What it means to be an American.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w03tJ3IkrM&feature=player_embedded
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 10, 2010 - 10:24am PT
charles krauthammer praises barry? this is a must read (warning: it will make libs' eyes bleed)



September 10, 2010 12:00 A.M.

Your Bid, Mr. Abbas
Until Palestine is ready to offer concessions, peace talks will accomplish nothing.


The prospects are dim but the process is right. The Obama administration is to be commended for structuring the latest rounds of Middle East talks correctly. Finally, we’re leaving behind interim agreements, of which the most lamentable were the Oslo accords of 1993.

The logic then was that issues so complicated could be addressed only step by step in the expectation that things get easier over time. In fact, they got harder. Israel made concrete concessions — bringing in Yasser Arafat to run the West Bank and Gaza — in return for which Israel received growing threats, continuous incitement, and finally a full-scale terror war that killed more than a thousand innocent Israelis.

Among the victims was the Israeli peace movement and its illusions about Palestinian acceptance of Israel. The Israeli Left, mugged by reality, is now moribund. And the Israeli Right is chastened. No serious player believes it can hang on forever to the West Bank.

This has created a unique phenomenon in Israel — a broad-based national consensus for giving nearly all the West Bank in return for peace. The moment is doubly unique because the only man who can deliver such a deal is Likud prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu — and he is prepared to do it.

Hence the wisdom of how the Obama administration has shaped the coming talks: No interim deals, no partial agreements. There are no mutual concessions that can be made separately within the great issues — territory, security, Jerusalem, the so-called right of return — to reach agreement. The concessions must be among these issues — thus if Israel gives up its dream of a united Jerusalem, for example, the Palestinians in return give up their dream of the right of return.

Most important is the directive issued by U.S. peace negotiator George Mitchell: What’s under discussion is a final settlement of the conflict. Meaning, no further claims. Conflict over.

What’s standing in the way? Israeli settlements? Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, one of Israel’s most nationalist politicians, lives in a settlement and has said openly that to achieve peace he and his family would abandon their home. What about the religious settlers? Might they not resist? Some tried that during the Gaza withdrawal, clinging to synagogue rooftops. What happened? Jewish soldiers pulled them down and took them away. If Israel is offered real peace, the soldiers will do that again.

The obstacle today, as always, is Palestinian refusal to accept a Jewish state. That has been the core issue of the conflict from 1947 through Camp David 2000 when Arafat rejected Israel’s extraordinarily generous peace offer, made no counteroffer, and started a terror war (the Second Intifada) two months later.

A final peace was there to be had. It remains on the table today. Unfortunately, there’s no more sign today of a Palestinian desire for final peace than there was at Camp David. Even if Mahmoud Abbas wants such an agreement (doubtful but possible), he simply doesn’t have the authority. To accept a Jewish state, Abbas needs some kind of national consensus behind him. He doesn’t have even a partial consensus. Hamas, which exists to destroy Israel, controls part of Palestine (Gaza), and is a powerful rival to Abbas’s Fatah even in his home territory of the West Bank.

Indeed, this week Abbas flatly told al-Quds, the leading Palestinian newspaper, “We won’t recognize Israel as a Jewish state.” Nice way to get things off on the right foot.

What will Abbas do? Unable and/or unwilling to make peace, he will exploit President Obama’s tactical blunder, the settlement freeze imposed on Israel despite the fact that Israeli-Palestinian negotiations had gone on without such a precondition for 16 years prior. Abbas will walk out if the freeze is not renewed on September 26. You don’t need to be prescient to see that coming. Abbas has already announced that that is what he’ll do.

That would solve all of Abbas’s problems. It would obviate signing on to a final settlement, fend off Hamas, and make Israel the fall guy.

The trifecta. Why not walk out? The world, which already condemns Israel even for self-defense, will be only too eager to blame Israel for the negotiation breakdown. And there is growing pressure to create a Palestinian state even if the talks fail — i.e., even if the Palestinians make no concessions at all. So why make any?

The talks are well-designed. Unfortunately, Abbas knows perfectly well how to undermine them.

— Charles Krauthammer is a nationally syndicated columnist. © 2010 the Washington Post Writers Group.

tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Sep 10, 2010 - 10:28am PT
Why they aren't winning the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/travelnews/article-1310540/Twelve-US-soldiers-face-trial-Afghan-civilians-killed-sport--whistle-blower-originally-ignored.html


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 10, 2010 - 10:48am PT
Krauthammer is an anti-intellectual piece of dung.
He is a horrid person and I afford him NO credence.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 10, 2010 - 11:06am PT
Both you and Krackedhummer are wrong.




Restoring honor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgLFMhkrsJY&feature=player_embedded




Protecting Hallowed ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIBZ5v7VK1U&feature=channel
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 10, 2010 - 11:58am PT
Your right, KrackedHummer and his ilk could be the cause of the next clash.

Bebe Rebozo you are a broken record.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 10, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
very thoughtful reaction, philo

here's some more to stoke the fire:



September 10, 2010 12:00 A.M.

The Eternal Flame of Muslim Outrage
If they’re not outraged by Ground Zero mosque protesters, it will be something else.


Shhhhhhh, we’re told. Don’t protest the Ground Zero mosque. Don’t burn a Koran. It’ll imperil the troops. It’ll inflame tensions. The “Muslim world” will “explode” if it does not get its way, warns sharia-peddling imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Pardon my national-security-threatening impudence, but when is the “Muslim world” not ready to “explode”?

At the risk of provoking the ever-volatile Religion of Perpetual Outrage, let us count the little-noticed and forgotten ways.

Just a few months ago in Kashmir, faithful Muslims rioted over what they thought was a mosque depicted on underwear sold by street vendors. The mob shut down businesses and clashed with police over the blasphemous skivvies. But it turned out there was no need for Allah’s avengers to get their holy knickers in a bunch. The alleged mosque was actually a building resembling London’s St. Paul’s Cathedral. A Kashmiri law-enforcement official later concluded the protests were “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

Indeed, art and graphics have an uncanny way of vitiating the Muslim world’s atmosphere. In 1994, Muslims threatened German supermodel Claudia Schiffer with death after she wore a Karl Lagerfeld–designed dress printed with a saying from the Koran. In 1997, outraged Muslims forced Nike to recall 800,000 shoes because they claimed the company’s “Air” logo looked like the Arabic script for “Allah.” In 1998, another conflagration spread over Unilever’s ice-cream logo — which Muslims claimed looked like “Allah” if read upside-down and backwards (can’t recall what they said it resembled if you viewed it with 3D glasses).

Even more explosively, in 2002, an al-Qaeda-linked jihadist cell plotted to blow up Bologna, Italy’s Church of San Petronio because it displayed a 15th-century fresco depicting Mohammed being tormented in the ninth circle of Hell. For years, Muslims had demanded that the art come down. Counterterrorism officials in Europe caught the would-be bombers on tape scouting out the church and exclaiming, “May Allah bring it all down. It will all come down.”

That same year, Nigerian Muslims stabbed, bludgeoned, or burned to death 200 people in protest of the Miss World beauty pageant — which they considered an affront to Allah. Contest organizers fled out of fear of inflaming further destruction. When Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel joked that Mohammed would have approved of the pageant and that “in all honesty, he would probably have chosen a wife from among them,” her newspaper rushed to print three retractions and apologies in a row. It didn’t stop Muslim vigilantes from torching the newspaper’s offices. A fatwa was issued on Daniel’s life by a Nigerian official in the sharia-ruled state of Zamfara, who declared that “the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed. It is abiding on all Muslims wherever they are to consider the killing of the writer as a religious duty.” Daniel fled to Norway.

In 2005, British Muslims got all hot and bothered over a Burger King ice-cream-cone container whose swirly-texted label resembled, you guessed it, the Arabic script for “Allah.” The restaurant chain yanked the product in a panic and prostrated itself before the Muslim world. But the fast-food dessert had already become a handy radical-Islamic recruiting tool. Rashad Akhtar, a young British Muslim, told Harper’s Magazine how the ice-cream caper had inspired him: “Even though it means nothing to some people and may mean nothing to some Muslims in this country, this is my jihad. I’m not going to rest until I find the person who is responsible. I’m going to bring this country down.”

In 2007, Muslims combusted again in Sudan after an infidel elementary-school teacher innocently named a classroom teddy bear “Mohammed.” Protesters chanted, “Kill her, kill her by firing squad!” and “No tolerance — execution!” She was arrested and jailed, and faced 40 lashes for blasphemy before being freed after eight days. Not wanting to cause further inflammation, the teacher rushed to apologize: “I have great respect for the Islamic religion and would not knowingly offend anyone, and I am sorry if I caused any distress.”

And who could forget the global Danish-cartoon riots of 2006 (instigated by imams who toured Egypt stoking hysteria with faked anti-Islam comic strips)? From Afghanistan to Egypt to Lebanon to Libya, Pakistan, Turkey, and in between, hundreds died under the pretext of protecting Mohammed from Western slight, and brave journalists who stood up to the madness were threatened with beheading. It wasn’t really about the cartoons at all, of course. Little remembered is the fact that Muslim bullies were attempting to pressure Denmark over the International Atomic Energy Agency’s decision to report Iran to the U.N. Security Council for continuing with its nuclear-research program. The chairmanship of the council was passing to Denmark at the time. Yes, it was just another in a long line of manufactured Muslim explosions that were, to borrow a useful phrase, “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

When everything from sneakers to stuffed animals to comics to frescos to beauty queens to fast-food packaging to undies serves as dry tinder for Allah’s avengers, it’s a grand farce to feign concern about the recruitment effect of a few burnt Korans in the hands of a two-bit attention-seeker in Florida. The eternal flame of Muslim outrage was lit a long, long time ago.

— Michelle Malkin is the author of Culture of Corruption: Obama and His Team of Tax Cheats, Crooks & Cronies (Regnery, 2010). © 2010 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 10, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
I think that Iranian just double dared us to burn it.

Seems its a war on 2 fronts these days. We have the Muslims on the outside
and Obama on the inside.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0927/politics-socialism-capitalism-private-enterprises-obama-business-problem.html

Theories abound to explain the President's goals and actions. Critics in the
business community--including some Obama voters who now have buyer's
remorse--tend to focus on two main themes. The first is that Obama is
clueless about business. The second is that Obama is a socialist--not an
out-and-out Marxist, but something of a European-style socialist, with a
penchant for leveling and government redistribution.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 13, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
Why I'm always a target:

I thought it was because you are wide.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
Al Quaeda is back in basra and taking over now that the US is gone....rj
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 13, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
Al Qaeda in Iraq rises again

The militant group exploits a political vacuum in Baghdad and anger among minority Sunni Arabs to regain control in some areas.

By Ned Parker, Los Angeles Times

September 13, 2010

Reporting from Jarf Sakhr, Iraq — Sheik Sabah Janabi wears a painful-looking metal brace on his left hand, its rods pressing into the puffy flesh like the spring on a mousetrap. He fumbles a Marlboro from a pack with his good hand, sucks in the smoke and frowns.

In this farming town that was a center of extremism when Iraq fell into its nihilistic civil war, Janabi sits in a darkened room, his white shirt half tucked in and his blue tie slightly askew. He talks about how gunmen tried to kill him three months ago and describes himself as a leader under siege.

Al Qaeda in Iraq is back from the dead.

Once vanquished by Janabi and other Sunni Arab fighters who joined the U.S.-backed Awakening movement, the Islamic militant group is carving out new sanctuaries here in the farmlands south of Baghdad, in the deserts to the west and in the mountains to the east.

Almost weekly, suicide bombers wage war in the Iraqi capital. Tribal leaders, local officials and some U.S. officers worry that Al Qaeda in Iraq has successfully exploited the country's six-month political vacuum and anger over arrests of Awakening members in Sunni areas to establish its new foothold.



"We went a lengthy time without huge car bombs, and suddenly we are getting them," a senior U.S. officer said. "Without good support for the Awakening, Qaeda is starting to morph back into areas."

Although Al Qaeda in Iraq is nowhere near its level of power in 2005 and 2006, when it controlled large swaths of territory in Baghdad and other cities, its ability to once more establish havens is an ominous sign that could point to the possible renewal of the country's sectarian war if the political void persists and communal resentments are not addressed.

The disenchantment of Iraq's minority Sunnis, who benefited under President Saddam Hussein and provided the ballast for the insurgency after U.S.-led forces ousted him in 2003, is ripe for exploitation.

"It's still self-defense and survival," the U.S. officer said. "The American military isn't on the scene. The Iraqi security forces are still not trusted in most areas, and the government of Iraq is absent. It doesn't mean they are joining Qaeda, but it means that some are not acting against Qaeda so Qaeda doesn't do anything against their families."

Defense Minister Abdul Qader Obeidi said security forces were aware of the return of Al Qaeda in Iraq to Diyala and Anbar provinces and south of Baghdad. But he insisted that his commanders were on top of the situation.

"We have to recognize that we are dealing with the third generation of Al Qaeda that is more advanced, so we have to deal with this," Obeidi said. "There are definite signs of regeneration."

In western Iraq's Anbar province, where Al Qaeda in Iraq was dealt a knockout blow in 2007, security officials, prominent sheiks and former insurgents warn that the group, along with Hussein's Baath Party, has infiltrated the police force and has sleeper cells in command positions. Some of them speak of Al Qaeda's ability to move freely and potentially to overrun at least two cities for several hours.


In Diyala, to the north and east of Baghdad, areas have been marred by car bombings and several beheadings, including one of a Sunni cleric. Two weeks ago, Al Qaeda fighters killed eight Awakening members and then paraded and planted a black flag in the town of Sharaban. The group is now seen as having loose control in some of the province's mountains and has a substantial presence in the suburbs around its capital, Baqubah.

Al Qaeda in Iraq's rekindled influence can be traced back a year in Jarf Sakhr and other places, after the Shiite-led Iraqi government finished taking over the Awakening program nationwide in the spring of 2009. Soon army raids intensified in Sunni communities and Awakening salaries were often paid late. Progress on incorporating Awakening members into the security forces was tepid at best. The ranks of the paramilitary group were diminished, and Al Qaeda in Iraq used the opening to reassert itself.

"Villagers and simple people go to those people they are afraid of. They are terrified of Qaeda," said a former insurgent leader, who asked not to be identified for security reasons. "They are always going with the one who is strongest."

Two years ago, Sheik Janabi was mighty and Al Qaeda was weak. He claimed the loyalty of hundreds of men. Now his world is crumbling.

The players who put him on his pedestal have faded away: The Americans are mostly gone, and his backers from insurgent groups that fought Al Qaeda have left or been severely weakened. Some locals resent him and the power he amassed.


He has little to show for his tribesmen. Electricity is sparse; there are no hospitals and no jobs. Some have defected to Al Qaeda for money, others out of fear, frustration with Janabi or hatred of the government.

Two of his brothers have been killed. Janabi nearly met the same fate.

One morning in June, he left his farm in a white truck, his bodyguards traveling in a second car. Janabi was talking on his phone when a burst of gunfire raked his car and smashed out the back window. Bullets grazed his forehead and ripped his hand.

Some of his men fired back madly and he was raced to a hospital, where they wanted to amputate his finger. He refused and chose to go to Jordan for surgery.

Sitting in his office decorated with a rumpled Iraqi flag and pictures of U.S. Gens. David H. Petraeus and Ray T. Odierno, Janabi says that one of Al Qaeda's leaders here is a rival member of his tribe, a man called Mohammed Awad. He and his colleagues call Awad "a man of no value" before he rose to his position in Al Qaeda. They dismiss him as an "illiterate" and lesser member of the tribe who was attracted to crime before he heeded an Islamic fundamentalist call.

The rift speaks to the tribal conflicts that Al Qaeda has manipulated to worm its way back into rural districts. Awad now holds sway in the countryside where Janabi lives; at night, Al Qaeda followers wander freely. Roads toward Ramadi and along the Euphrates River are treacherous by late afternoon.

Men stop by Janabi's office and they talk more about Al Qaeda. Janabi says at least 100 Awakening members are now loyal to Al Qaeda in Iraq. He brags that with government support he could defeat the group in a month.

"I can't leave the field to these killers," he growls. "We sweated blood. I can't give up."

But his strut masks an anxiousness, apparent in the bags under his eyes and his occasionally dejected stares. He acknowledges that he could very well leave Iraq soon.

"Sabah can't be tough with Qaeda or they will kill him," said one prominent resident here, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the subject. "He is weak and trying to survive."

Janabi's relationship with officials in Baghdad remains tense. Zuhair Chalabi, in charge of the government's Awakening file, calls Janabi a Baathist and says that there are arrest warrants against him but that now is not the time to implement them.

Leaving his office, Janabi walks by his pickup and puts his good hand on the side of the abandoned vehicle, riddled with holes. A bodyguard sweats, gripping his rifle. Janabi glances around. A few people stand by their houses. The road will be dangerous soon and he cannot be sure whom to trust.

ned.parker@latimes.com
Copyright © 2010, Los Angeles Times
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 14, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
Blargle blargle gargling too I've got a steaming coiler for you.
Yargle yargle gobbley goo don't be surprised it smells like...
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 14, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
philo - perhaps you should consider not postings while you are stoned.
Just a suggestion.


Meanwhile the nutcase politically correct NJ transit authority open themselves to a massive lawsuit.
Its like they are begging to be sued.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/14/2010-09-14_koran_burner_derek_fenton_fired_from_his_job_at_nj_transit.html

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 14, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
Sorry CornHole I don't see the problem you do. This ignorant AssHat deserved to get fired and I bet he now knows it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 15, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
Hamas has broken out the Willy Pete.

http://debka.com/article/9020/

When will our resident terrorist apologist decry this war crime?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 17, 2010 - 12:49am PT
From Newsweek's resident genius:

We’re Safer Than We Think
But no one wants to admit it.


by Fareed Zakaria
September 11, 2010

Are we safer now than we were on 9/11? It sounds like a simple question, amenable to an answer or at least a serious conversation. But we are so polarized in America these days that it almost seems more difficult now than it was in the immediate aftermath of the attacks. Let me try and answer the question as fairly as I know how.

Of course we are safer. During the 1990s, Al Qaeda ran training camps through which as many as 20,000 fighters may have passed. It was able to operate successfully during that decade and into the next because most governments treated the group as an annoyance rather than a major national-security challenge. After the attacks, the world’s attitude changed dramatically, and the series of security measures instituted since then have proved effective. Take one example: sealing cockpit doors has made it highly un-likely that an airplane could be used ever again as a missile.

In addition, U.S. forces went on the offensive in Afghanistan, toppling the regime that supported Al Qaeda, destroying its camps, and chasing its recruits around the mountains of the region. Washington, in partnership with other governments, has tracked the communications, travel, and—most important—money that fuels terror operations, blocking these at every turn. As I wrote at the time and subsequently, and as I continue to believe, the Bush administration deserves credit for these measures. Whatever one may think of its subsequent decisions, its policies to secure the homeland and go after Al Qaeda in 2001 and 2002 were mostly smart and successful. President Obama’s decision to amp up the campaign against Al Qaeda in Pakistan has further fractured the group.

As a result, Al Qaeda “central”—Osama bin Laden and his gang—has been whittled down to about 400 fighters. It has been unable to execute large-scale attacks of the kind that were at the core of its strategy—to hit high-value American targets that held military or political symbolism. Instead, the terrorist attacks after 9/11 have been launched by smaller local groups, self-identified as affiliates of Al Qaeda, against much easier sites—the nightclub in Bali; cafés in Casablanca and Istanbul; hotels in Amman, Jordan; train stations in Madrid and London. The fatal problem with these kinds of attacks is that they kill ordinary civilians—not U.S. soldiers or diplomats—and turn the local population against Islamic radicals.

The real threat of Al Qaeda was that it would inspire some percent-age of the world’s 1.57 billion Muslims, sending out unstoppable waves of jihadis. In fact, across the Muslim world, militant Islam’s appeal has plunged. In the half of the Muslim world that holds elections, parties that are in any way associated with Islamic jihad tend to fare miserably, even in Pakistan, which has the most serious terrorism problem of any country in the world today. Over the last few years, imams and Muslim leaders across the world have been denouncing suicide bombings, terrorism, and Al Qaeda with regularity.

Of course, we are not 100 percent safe, nor will we ever be. Open societies and modern technology combine to create a permanent danger. Small groups of people can do terrible things. We could make ourselves much safer still, but that would mean many, many more restrictions on our freedoms to move, congregate, associate, and communicate. It’s tough to do terrorism in North Korea.

So the legitimate question to ask now is, have we gone too far? Is the vast expansion in governmental powers and bureaucracies—layered on top of the already enormous military-industrial complex of the Cold War—warranted? Does an organization that has as few as 400 members and waning global appeal require the permanent institutional response we have created?

I’ve been asking these questions for a few years now, and in fact described our “massive overreaction” in a 2008 NEWSWEEK essay, but with little effect. During the Bush years, there was a reluctance on the left to acknowledge that the administration could have done anything worthwhile to counter terrorism. The far greater problem is on the right, where it has become an article of faith that we are gravely threatened by vast swarms of Islamic terrorists, many within the country.

This campaign to spread a sense of imminent danger has fueled a climate of fear and anger. It has created suspicions about U.S. Muslims—who are more assimilated than in any other country in the world. Ironically, this is precisely the intent of terrorism. Bin Laden knew he could never weaken America directly, even if he blew up a dozen buildings or ships. But he could provoke an overreaction by which America weakened itself.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 17, 2010 - 03:35am PT
Hi Fatty
What did you say the death and injury toll was from those alleged WMDs, same as we used in Iraq and Israel used in Gaza before?

I don't condone violence on either side but as long as the Palestinians lose many times the women and children to wanton killing, I'm hardly seeing that Israel is any kind of underdog here

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:40am PT
I'm all for war crimes trials with Israel, Gaza and the US standing side by side.

It's yom kippur Fatty. Time to Atone. That 25 hour fast will be good for your climbing!

Peace

Karl
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Sep 17, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2012921512_apfbomideastteamingup.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 17, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
September 15, 2010
The Strange — and Tragic — Case of Nagla Imam
by Raymond Ibrahim
Pajamas Media

Uncovering the truth is always a convoluted affair when it comes to the Middle East. Consider the case of the Egyptian Nagla Iman. Is she a Muslim woman who advocates the sexual harassment of Jewish women, or a Christian woman, who advocates human rights — especially for fellow women of all faiths?

The story begins last June 24, when I was a guest on I Was a Prisoner, which airs weekly on the Arabic satellite station Tarek TV ("Way TV"). Named after its host, Nabil Bissada, who was imprisoned and tortured in Egypt for facilitating the way for Muslims to convert to Christianity, I Was a Prisoner explores the lack of human rights in Muslim countries.

Prior to the show, I was told a well-known Egyptian lawyer was scheduled to call in and discuss how the Egyptian government was harassing her for converting. Nagla called in and expressed her situation as follows:

After being a prominent lawyer for years, she was fired for converting to Christianity; nor would the government, as usual, allow her formally to change her religion from Muslim to Christian on her I.D. card. As a result, she tried to organize a public demonstration against the government, with other Muslim converts to Christianity. The demonstration was quickly dispersed by the police, the demonstrators beaten and threatened; and the Muslim mob got in on the action. The young daughter of one Christian convert who broke her arm was denied medical attention.

After the show, I decided to google Nagla Imam's name, and it was then that I discovered the strange remarks attributed to her. The contradiction was stunning: I contacted Nabil, who said he would investigate the matter.

On 7 July 2010, Nabil contacted me by phone on the Nagla case. According to him, here are where things stand:

He called and asked Nagla about the sexual harassment remark; she became livid and frustrated, saying she never said such a thing, and that that video was intentionally doctored by her Islamist opponents who run the Saudi-sponsored station Al Arabiya to slander her name. (Nabil added that, due to her human rights work — years back, she tried to pass a law banning polygamy in Egypt to the point that Al Azhar proclaimed her an infidel — Islamists have been trying to undermine her for years.)

As for her personal situation, approximately two weeks ago, state security arrested and took Nagla to a government building in Cairo. There, a top official twisted the crucifix she was wearing, tightening the chain around her neck, while saying "the cross will be the death of you." The official then proceeded to beat her — giving her a black eye, a bruised body, and broken teeth. Before releasing her, he said, "Stay in your house, till you are carried out to your grave," adding that, if she does not return to Islam, "people" will be dispatched to "take care of her."

Nabil concluded by saying that Nagla and her two young children are trapped indoors — their entire Muslim family having turned their backs on them — and besieged by the mob, which bangs on the doors and windows and has cut off (no doubt, thanks to the government) all electricity to the house, leaving Nagla and her children in the dark (see here for a video where a battered Nagla sings a psalm with her children).

Finally, a top Muslim cleric, Salim Abdul Galil, appeared on an Al Azhar affiliated station proclaiming Nagla an "infidel," adding she must either return to Islam or spend the remainder of her life indoors.

It should be observed that such a verdict accords perfectly not only with Islamic law in general, which is Egypt's "primal source of legislation," but the Hanafi school in particular, which is dominant in Egypt: rather than kill apostate women outright, the "lenient" Hanafis recommend that women be beaten (the government official took care of that) and then imprisoned in their homes (the Muslim cleric has seen to that) until they see the "error of their ways" and return to Islam.

Postscript: Last we heard, Nagla and her children have completely disappeared, bringing back the government official's threat to mind — that "people" could be sent to "take care of her." To learn more about the Nagla Imam story, contact Way TV: (661) 233-8787.

©2010 Raymond Ibrahim
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 18, 2010 - 02:06am PT
The real Clash of Civilizations is between the power elite and their vampirish victims, the American People and people of the world. They disguise this clash by creating boogeymen to worry and distract us.

From

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/09/17-5

"While 43.6 million Americans live in poverty, the richest men of finance sure are getting pissy. First Steve Schwartzman, head of the Blackrock private equity company, compares the Obama administration's effort to close billionaires' tax loopholes to "the Nazi invasion of Poland." Then hedge fund mogul David Loeb announces that he's abandoning the Democrats because they're violating "this country's core founding principles" -- including "non-punitive taxation, Constitutionally-guaranteed protections against persecution of the minority, and an inexorable right of self-determination." Instead of showing their outrage about the spread of poverty in the richest nation on Earth, the super-rich want us to pity them?

Why are Wall Street's billionaires so whiny? Is it really possible to make $900,000 an hour (not a typo -- that's what the top ten hedge fund managers take in), and still feel aggrieved about the way government is treating you? After you've been bailed out by the federal government to the tune of $10 trillion (also not a typo) in loans, asset swaps, liquidity and other guarantees, can you really still feel like an oppressed minority?

You'd think the Wall Street moguls would be thankful. Not just thankful -- down on their knees kissing the ground taxpayers walk on and hollering hallelujah at the top of their lungs! These guys profited from puffing up the housing bubble, then got bailed out when the going got tough. (Please see The Looting of America for all the gory details.) Without taxpayer largess, these hedge fund honchos would be flat broke. Instead, they're back to hauling in obscene profits.

These billionaires don't even have to worry about serious financial reforms. The paltry legislation that squeaked through Congress did nothing to end too big and too interconnected to fail. In fact, the biggest firms got even bigger as they gobbled up troubled banks, with the generous support of the federal government. No bank or hedge fund was broken up. Nobody was forced to pay a financial transaction tax. None of the big boys had a cap placed on their astronomical wealth. No one's paying reparations for wrecking the US economy. The big bankers are still free to create and trade the very derivatives that catapulted us into this global crisis. You'd think the billionaires would be praying on the altar of government and erecting statues on Capital Hill in honor of St. Bailout.

Instead, standing before us are these troubled souls, haunted by visions of persecution. Why?...."

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 09:13am PT
Excellent post Karl.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
Dadyyyyyy!
Kahled keeps poking me in the eye.
No I didn't!
Yes you did!
No I didn't!
Yes you did!
Well, Bibi, you poked me first!
No I didn't!
Yes you did!
No I didn't!
Yes you did!

..... different religions, same root-genetic-stock, same bad attitude.
Hatfields and McCoys......
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
Didn't see this till recently. I have spent several days working for free in the burn zone helping folks get generators set up. Some things are more important than than Fat's attempt to gloat.


Sure Fats sure.
First I would like to point out that your earlier use of the word "alleged" to describe the illegal use of WP by Israel was very disingenuous. It has been unequivocally shown that Israel engaged in war crimes in Gaza including the use of WP against civilians.
That being said I condemn the illegal use of WP by all parties and would advocate for war crimes tribunals for all.
How about you? Will you admit and condemn Israel's use of WP in Gaza? Will you call for war crimes tribunals for those Israelis responsible?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
How about you? Will you admit and condemn Israel's use of WP in Gaza? Will you call for war crimes tribunals for those Israelis responsible?

Well Fats, how about it????????????
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
How about you? Will you admit and condemn Israel's use of WP in Gaza? Will you call for war crimes tribunals for those Israelis responsible?

Well Fats, how about it????????????






Hey Crowley, I know you get lots of grief from the mouth breathers but you are one cat I would like to meet around a real camp fire.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
Still waiting for the FatMan.
Crickets....

How about you? Will you admit and condemn Israel's use of WP in Gaza? Will you call for war crimes tribunals for those Israelis responsible?

Well Fats, how about it????????????




This ridiculous game is fun. Fats, did you have as much fun as I am having when you were at bat?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
Crickets chirping loudly....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
Big Fat Liar! How dare you press me to comment on "alleged" Palestinian use of WP while you stand against the facts and deny Israeli use of WP against Gazan citizens.

Nor did they use DIME weapons. All those dismembered bodies were faked for the world media.
Nor did they shoot pregnant women in the uterus. "Two kills with one shot" is a popular T shirt among the IDF. it shows a bull's eye on a pregnant women. Classy.
Nor do the hake Nukes, Chemical weapons and biological weapons.


About the only thing the IDF didn't use against Gaza was DU (depleted uranium, as that would poison the land for when they have driven off or murdered all the Palestinians.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
Israel did not use WP against the Palestinians,


Then who DID they use them against?


Oh yeah I know those dirty evil doing terrorists occupying Jewish land that's who.
Yeah right!
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Sep 18, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
Israel did not use WP against the Palestinians

You and Ahmedinejad have more in common than you think.....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
So if the Israelis refuse to stop settlement building they will prove the have no interest in peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians. Of course that wont stop them from blaming the Palestinians for the collapse of peace talks. Then DaftRat can spew about Maddy Albright running after Arafat with one high heel waving.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
Nor did they specialize in head shots for children.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 18, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
WARNING! This link shows proof of what Fats denies. Shocking picture alert!



http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=Israeli+war+crimes+in+Gaza&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Jv-UTIm_CqjqnQeYqJXZCA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CD8QsAQwBA&biw=967&bih=603
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 19, 2010 - 03:44am PT
Real Clash of civilizations here. Conditional support of Israel is another hallmark of the most elite money that rules us.

Why are Wall Street's billionaires so whiny? Is it really possible to make $900,000 an hour (not a typo -- that's what the top ten hedge fund managers take in), and still feel aggrieved about the way government is treating you? After you've been bailed out by the federal government to the tune of $10 trillion (also not a typo) in loans, asset swaps, liquidity and other guarantees, can you really still feel like an oppressed minority?

You'd think the Wall Street moguls would be thankful. Not just thankful -- down on their knees kissing the ground taxpayers walk on and hollering hallelujah at the top of their lungs! These guys profited from puffing up the housing bubble, then got bailed out when the going got tough. (Please see The Looting of America for all the gory details.) Without taxpayer largess, these hedge fund honchos would be flat broke. Instead, they're back to hauling in obscene profits.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 19, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
Fats, what does that have to do with the whopper lie you told up thread?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 19, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
Four out of the nine GRAD rounds were WP. They weren't used as air burst obscurant rounds. They were addressed "to whom it may concern"

In fairness, Hamas operatives probably don't know what the Russian color banding scheme means. They would however be even more gleeful if they were nerve gas or radioactive.

Last weeks sermon from Gaza.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2605.htm

The present peace talks are a fools errand.

Abbas is a dead man if there's any hint of progress.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 19, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
Still waiting Fats...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 19, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
If they were for battlefield illumination then why are there so many pictures of them being used in daylight?



Well there is one thing for sure; the IDF is why better at "accidents" than Hamas.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 19, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
ten posts back.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 20, 2010 - 10:36am PT
Fifth picture.
Tenth picture.
Just to cite a few.
I know the truth is difficult for you as it conflicts with your "greed s good' mantra.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 20, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
That's because, like your eyes, your ears are mostly closed.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 20, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
Well then no reason to keep Vanunu in prison is there?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 20, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
Still plenty of left Nazis in this world.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/world/europe/19gans.html?_r=2&src=mv&ref=world

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 21, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
further proof that we're losing the war: islamists now controlling free speech in the u.s.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/247126/rushdie-rules-reach-florida-daniel-pipes


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 21, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
Examiner Editorial: Government and journalists cower at threats to cartoonist

Examiner Editorial
September 20, 2010

Last week, the Seattle Weekly announced that Molly Norris, its editorial cartoonist, had "gone ghost." Put another way, she went into hiding. The FBI told her she had to because otherwise it couldn't protect her against death threats from Muslims she'd angered. Earlier this year, Norris started "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" to protest radical Muslims' violently stifling freedom of speech and conscience. Incredibly, her plight has drawn precious little media attention, even though it is infinitely more newsworthy than, say, a fundamentalist preacher in Florida threatening to burn Qurans.


When The Examiner asked the American Society of News Editors for a statement on the issue, none was forthcoming. This despite the fact that the first sentence of ASNE's Web site describes its mission as supporting "the First Amendment at home and free speech around the world." We got a similar response from the Society of Professional Journalists, despite its dedication "to the perpetuation of the free press as the cornerstone of our nation and liberty."

Freedom of speech and press are in deep trouble when the American government thinks the best it can do to protect a journalist from death threats is to counsel her to go into hiding, and when the elite voices of American journalism can't be bothered to say anything in her defense. But it's actually worse than that. The New York Times' Nicholas Kristof thinks Muslims are owed an apology. "I hereby apologize to Muslims for the wave of bigotry and simple nuttiness that has lately been directed at you," he wrote Sunday. "The venom on the airwaves, equating Muslims with terrorists, should embarrass us more than you."

Instead of telling the rest of us that we're all bigots, shouldn't Kristof and the rest of the journalism profession be outraged by what has happened to Molly Norris? And shouldn't they be angered that her government believes it cannot protect her? Imagine what they would be saying if white-hooded members of the Ku Klux Klan were threatening to kill Norris in Selma, Ala., instead of radical Muslims in Seattle. Would the FBI tell Norris she had to stop being a journalist and go into hiding? And would ASNE and SPJ look the other way as the First Amendment and freedom of the press were symbolically turned to ashes by flaming white crosses?

The reality is that the FBI fought the KKK at every turn, including when it threatened brave Southern newspaper editors who stood up against racism and violence. And from the start, journalists were prominent figures in the civil rights movement, courageously reporting the truth about the crushing stranglehold of segregation on life and liberty across the old South, often at risk of their very lives. It's time the present generation of American journalists found the same brand of courage many of their fathers showed in the 1960s.



Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Examiner-Editorial-Government-and-journalists-cower-at-threats-to-cartoonist.html#ixzz10CAgTUtA
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 22, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
The single biggest impediment to the peace process is radical Zionism and their refusal to halt home demolitions and settlement expansions.

It's funny that Hamas was a creation of Israel insiders and the Mosad.
How do you suppose they like the blow back?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 23, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
Obama's peace effort's have just failed:

Wishful thinking, but you are still full of it.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 23, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
The play done from Rachel Corrie's journal, emails, and writings about to open here in PDX, should be good.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 23, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
Healyje, it is a remarkably compelling play.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 23, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
The Fat man would have you believe her death was her fault and not the cold blooded murder by the IDF that it really was.


She was a lovely person.
The parasite who murdered her went home to dinner bragging of a job well done.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 23, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
Father' of Iranian blogging faces death penalty: watchdog
Sep 23 02:58 PM US/Eastern


A

A Canadian-Iranian blogger credited with starting the blogging movement in Iran faces the death penalty over his writings, two watchdog groups said Thursday.

Hossein Derakhshan was arrested after returning to Iran in November 2008 and charged with "collaborating with enemy states, creating propaganda against the Islamic regime, insulting religious sanctity, and creating propaganda for anti-revolutionary groups," said Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (CJFE) and PEN Canada.

According to the two organizations, prosecutors are now calling for Derakhshan to face the death penalty after he was convicted by Tehran's revolutionary court earlier this year.

News of the sentencing request started filtering out on social media sites on Monday, and the CJFE and PEN said they confirmed the reports with his family.

"The proposed sentence is a travesty," said CJFE president Arnold Amber, calling on the Canadian government to intervene.

"Action must be taken right away because in Iran there is not necessarily a lengthy period before executions can be carried out. We are very concerned," he added.

Catherine Loubier, spokeswoman for Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, told AFP that Ottawa was "preoccupied" by reports Derakhshan may be executed and was seeking verification of the facts.

The Canadian government has also sought consular access to him.

However any further help Canada may provide in this case is "limited," Loubier said, as Tehran does not recognize dual citizenship.

Derakhshan is the third Canadian journalist to be arrested in Iran in recent years. In July 2003, Canadian-Iranian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died in prison, and Newsweek correspondent Maziar Bahari was briefly detained earlier this year.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 26, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
Another video brought to you by the "religion of peas"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/video-surfaces-of-taliban-stoning-woman-in-northwest-pakistan.html

Couldn't bring myself to watch it.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 28, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
You do better with Tacos, Jeff...
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 30, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
Radar is suddenly no longer a deterrent to sneak attacks if we can believe
the reports that an Israeli Nano company has developed a special paint that
can be applied to anything (planes, missiles, vehicles, ships) and make
it stealthy from radar detection.

It absorbs the spectrum of radar waves and makes objects invisible to long range detection. 'A total game changer' said one military source.

Armed forces with this technology would have a significant advantage
over those without it.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/me_israel0672_07_16.asp

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138613


The cost-benefit ratio is also a major plus: a U.S.-made Stealth plane
costs in the vicinity of $5 billion. “Stealth paint” costs would be in the low $1000's to apply onto an ordinary plane.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 1, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
Some of these coatings have been around since the 70's. The most effective stealth technology is still geometry based.

The existential threat of Iran's nukes explained.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-other-existential-threat-15530
ahad aham

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
where does the good senator stand on this issue?

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/10/01/flotilla/index.html


or perhaps this as obama grovells before netanyahu?


http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2010/09/29/wake-up-america/

quisling


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 1, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
Greece is broke and will be auctioning off its subs soon.

Any bets on who gets them?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 2, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
What is the difference between a nuclear Iran and a nuclear Pakistan? Or a nuclear India. Or a nuclear Israel. Or a nuclear South Africa.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

America is the only country to use them in aggression. Maybe we should be disarmed.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 2, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
http://facebookvideoindirx.com/niqabitch-hq/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 5, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
What is the difference between a nuclear Iran and a nuclear Pakistan? Or a nuclear India. Or a nuclear Israel. Or a nuclear South Africa.


Well you can start with this;

"The IRI (Islamic Republic of Iran) is, in actuality, an eschatological construct based on a messianic figure known as the Hidden Imam. With the ongoing pronouncements about the destruction of Israel and the war against the United States, all in the name of the Hidden Imam, it suddenly seems more important to know something about this whole concept."

http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2005/october-2005/jamkaran_211005.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/imam-mahdi.htm

http://www.payvand.com/news/10/sep/1008.html

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 7, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
Britain's former Prime Minister Tony Blair was forced out of office early because, weakened by his backing for the war in Iraq, he refused to condemn Israel for the Lebanon war of 2006.
Another fine bit of revisionism. Blair's credibility was destroyed by his being Bush's bumboy, by having been prime minister for over a decade, and economic mismanagement. It had nothing to do with Israel's invasion of Lebanon, an issue barely on the radar for virtually British voters.

The middle east and Israel are less important than Jeff would have us believe.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
Yes, in this country primarily only Jews have an interest in middle east.

Fatty is a Jew, hence his interest.

By far the vast majority of non Jewish Americans could not care less.

My guess is 85% of Americans could not even find Israel on a world map.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 7, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
This thread needs waffles.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 7, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
Reader alert: Wafflejack in progress. Please do not adjust your sets.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 7, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
Bring on the waffles. Woot!!!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
hey fattrad

ever read "Culture and Carnage" by Victor Davis Hanson? Outstanding book explaining why the "West" has been militarily dominant since the Marathon
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LJ13Ak01.html

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
could this be the turning point? will freedom triumph even in europe?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/249940/wilders-not-guilty-all-counts-daniel-foster

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 19, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
I think this might be part of the Clash but since the reporter's name
is Simpson I'm not sure:



The latest Vatican line: Homer Simpson is Catholic

By VICTOR L. SIMPSON, Associated Press Writer Victor L. Simpson, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 1 min ago

VATICAN CITY – The Vatican newspaper has declared that Homer Simpson is part of the pope's flock — a claim that leaves "The Simpsons" TV producer baffled.

"Few people know it and he does everything to hide it but it is true: Homer J. Simpson is Catholic," L'Osservatore Romano wrote in its weekend edition under the headline: "Homer and Bart are Catholic."

Last December, the newspaper praised the show on its 20th anniversary for its philosophical leanings and irreverent take on religion.

The weekend story was the latest example of the Vatican paper's efforts to be more relevant in the last few years, and follows stories not only lauding Harry Potter but even praising the Beatles and waxing philosophical about John Lennon's boast that the British band was more popular than Jesus.

The paper quoted an analysis by a Jesuit priest, the Rev. Francesco Occhetta, discussing Homer's and his son Bart's conversion in a 2005 episode after meeting with a sympathetic priest, Father Sean, voiced by actor Liam Neeson.

L'Osservatore says the analysis shows that behind the TV program's jokes are themes "linked to the sense and quality of life."

"'The Simpsons' remain among the few programs for children in which the Christian faith, religion and the question of God are recurring themes," it said. "The family recites prayers together before meals and, in its own way, believes in heaven."

While noting that "The Simpsons" often takes jabs at religious figures, it said parents should not be afraid to let their children watch "the adventures of the little guys in yellow."

But the show's producer told Entertainment Weekly the Vatican may have gone a step too far in its analysis of the satire, noting that Homer and Bart only consider converting in the 2005 episode.

"My first reaction is shock and awe, and I guess it makes up for me not going to church for 20 years," EW.com quoted executive producer Al Jean as saying.

Jean noted that the Simpson family attends the First Church of Springfield "which is decidedly Presbylutheran."

"We've pretty clearly shown that Homer is not Catholic," he told the entertainment website. "I really don't think he could go without eating meat on Fridays for even an hour."

But L'Osservatore would seem to take that in stride, too.

"Skeptical realism seems to prevail in the Simpson stories," it wrote. "Young generations of television watchers are educated to not let themselves be fooled. The moral? None. But one knows that a world without easy illusions is a more human world and, perhaps, more Christian."

___

AP correspondent Colleen Barry in Milan contributed to this report
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 22, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
how do you get that democracy in the Arab world, likely at the end of a gun.

Yes, but it works better if the guns are wielded by the inhabitants.
Turkey's army has, arguably, created the Middle East's most viable democracy.
We probably won't see its like elsewhere for a goodly while.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 22, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
Turkey may be headed in the wrong direction as far as we're concerned but that clearly doesn't bother them.
You have to agree that their democracy is pretty close to the real deal.
Of course, if it gets too 'real' the army could step back in but that seems highly unlikely.

this week's The Economist:

Is Turkey turning its back on the West?

No. But it might if Europe and America cannot come to terms with its success
Oct 21st 2010

ITS strategic position, next to the Middle East and Russia and astride Europe and Asia, means that Turkey has always mattered. But over the past decade its significance has hugely increased. For Turkey has gone through two big, and not always widely recognised, transformations: in its economic performance and in its foreign policy.

For most of the post-war years the Turkish economy was, to reuse Tsar Nicholas I’s 19th-century phrase, “the sick man of Europe”, plagued by erratic growth, soaring inflation and periodic banking busts. Today inflation is far lower, the banks are solid and Turkey boasts the fastest-growing economy in the OECD club of rich countries. Because it is resource-poor, this growth reflects fundamental strengths, especially in manufacturing and construction. Turkey makes things like furniture, cars, cement (it is the world’s biggest exporter), shoes, televisions and DVD players. In a sense, it is Europe’s BRIC: it might be called the China of Europe.

On foreign policy this long-standing member of NATO, with an army second in size only to America’s, has always been a bulwark of the West. Turkey and Norway were the only NATO members to border the Soviet Union. But Turkey’s pro-Western stance led it to neglect its neighbourhood, including many countries once in the Ottoman empire. Here, too, there has been a transformation. Backed by its strong economy, Turkey has become highly active in its diplomacy across the Middle East, in the Balkans and as far afield as Africa—and not always to the satisfaction of its allies. In a sense, Turkey has become a local diplomatic giant—the Brazil of the region.

You might imagine that Western powers would welcome such an advance. Instead, a more prosperous, bumptious Turkey is jangling many nerves. Europeans are trembling over the prospect of being asked to admit such a populous state into the European Union. The United States, which used to scold the Europeans for their reluctance, is uncomfortable with Turkey’s newly adventurous foreign policy. Critics in the West are prone to hide behind the idea that Turkey is drifting towards Muslim fundamentalism and somehow “being lost” by the West. This judgment is completely wrong; yet the more that people in the West persist in making it, the greater the chance that they may genuinely lose Turkey.

The perils of democracy

In foreign policy, the government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan has certainly fallen prey on occasion to excessive Muslim solidarity. It has been too nice to Sudan’s ghastly president, Omar al-Bashir, ignoring his indictment for war crimes. It made a mistake by joining Brazil in an ill-fated Iranian nuclear initiative that led to the embarrassing sight of Turkey, a member of the UN Security Council in 2009-10, voting against tougher sanctions on Iran. And its increasingly strident attacks on its once-close ally, Israel, have angered not only the Israelis but also many Americans, especially after the Turkish-led flotilla that tried to “relieve” the siege of Gaza this summer.

But wait a moment. Brazil was nice to Iran, without anyone doubting its Western credentials. On Israel, Mr Erdogan has certainly at times played to the Arab street. But many of Turkey’s complaints, such as over settlement-building in the West Bank, are hardly controversial. It may have been ill-judged for the government to have been involved with those who launched the Gaza flotilla, but this would not have turned into such a catastrophe had the Israelis not killed nine people on board the leading ship. More fundamentally, the Turkish government is doing what democracies tend to do: reflecting its people’s views. Many Muslims think the Palestinians have been ill-treated. From an Israeli viewpoint it is no doubt awkward to have its human-rights record questioned by an elected prime minister, rather than by the usual Arab dictators. But who would America rather hear as a Muslim voice? The autocrats in Egypt and Saudi Arabia? The clerics in Iran?

The Europeans are also in a funk—over Turkey’s possible membership of the EU. Negotiations have formally been going on for over five years. No country that has begun such talks has ever failed to be offered membership. But the leaders of France, Germany, Austria and the Netherlands seem dead set against Turkish entry, as is much of their public opinion. The unresolved Cyprus dispute seems a near-insuperable roadblock. Yet if the EU chooses to exclude its own China, it will be turning away the fastest-growing economy in its neighbourhood. It will also lose any hope of influencing the region to its east. At a time when many Europeans fret about being ignored in the world, this would be an historic mistake.

How Western are they?

The common excuse for these follies is the claim that Turkey is not really Western—and is becoming ever less so. Once again, Mr Erdogan has done some unhelpful things. Critics note that, ever since his mildly Islamist Justice and Development (AK) party came to power in 2002, it has been engaged in a battle with the Kemalist secular establishment. He is intolerant of dissent, shown in his battles with critical media commentators. And he is increasingly impatient with the EU.

Yet fears of Turkey turning into the next Iran are absurd. A new tolerance of the headscarf in universities does not imply a sudden lurch into stoning adulteresses. Mr Erdogan’s run-ins with his opponents have certainly created a polarised society; he should adopt a more conciliatory tone if he wins re-election next June. But his opponents in the media still write their critical columns. It is troublemakers in the army who have posed a greater threat to democracy in recent times.

In short, Turkey is heading in a good direction. It remains a shining (and rare) example in the Muslim world of a vibrant democracy with the rule of law and a thriving free-market economy. Much though Western leaders would like to turn the argument into one about Turkey, the real question is for them. Are Americans and Europeans prepared to accept Turkey for what it is: a Muslim democracy, with a different culture and diplomatic posture, but committed to economic and political liberalism? This newspaper hopes the answer is yes.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 26, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
http://ricochet.com/conversations/Israel-as-Fossil-Fuel-Giant-How-Many-Ways-Could-this-Change-the-Game
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 27, 2010 - 10:14am PT
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-case-for-calling-them-nitwits/8130/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 27, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
http://www.yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3&SubID=2691&MainCat=3
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 27, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
Hey Fats, what do you think about this?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/mk-proposes-punishing-idf-soldiers-photographed-humiliating-palestinians-1.321470


Do you suppose they are "proposing" to punish these soldiers for abusing Palestinians or for getting caught doing it on film?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 27, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
Ha haha ha.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 27, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
Hmmm, 23 of the last 44 posts are by FatTrad. I wonder if anyone cares, or is even listening?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 27, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
Ha haha Ha... No!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 28, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
Chinese supercomputer now #1 - all while the globally-impaired obsess mindlessly over the a Mideast which rates no more than strategic resource issue and is not a strategic threat.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2010 - 10:14am PT
http://arabnews.com/world/article174203.ece
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 10:18am PT
Yeah, SO?
Does this in any way put YOU in danger?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2010 - 10:42am PT
Whitewashing Islam


http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/thornton102710.html
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
Look Fats, Obama (unlike Bushie) stopped a terrorist attack. Give the prez some props.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
Well at least Obama's intelligence community is actually listening.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
Why?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
Pot/Kettle same hue.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 29, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
The US delivers explosives to Yemen all the time. Except not in packages on freighters.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
http://warvictims.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/pakistan-u-s-unmanned-drone-attacks-within-pakistan-record-high-threat-to-civilians/
PAKISTAN: U.S. Unmanned Drone Attacks within Pakistan Record High: Threat to Civilians
October 7, 2010 by warvictims



http://uruknet.com/?p=m70081&hd=&size=1&l=e
Interview with family devastated by US drone attack
Asim Qureshi



The children of Mohammed Asghar


September 24, 2010

EXCLUSIVE - Cageprisoners interview with Haider whose brother-in-law Mohammed Asghar and his friends became the victims of an unlawful US drone attack.
CP: Could you please introduce yourself?
Bismillahir rahmaanir raheem
Haider: My name is Haider. My brother-in-law, Mohammed Asghar, lived in Peshawar and worked as a money exchanger in the markets there.
CP: Where did the drone attack take place?
H: The attacks took place in North Waziristan, Miranshah in District Ahmadkheel. My brother-in-law had friends he was visiting in Waziristan. As he was a guest there - and as is the custom of the people - many of the locals gathered to welcome him into the area. He was sat with a group of these people from the community when everybody gathered to pray the evening prayer ('Isha) together. The drone attack happened in the middle of the prayers and the entire congregation was martyred.
CP: Were there any Taliban or Al Qaeda in the gathering or were they all civilians?
H: All the people gathered were locals from the community who had come to welcome the new guest to the area. The people are renowned for their hospitality and it is unthinkable for them that somebody would come to visit and they would not have a gathering to welcome them. In total, 31 people were killed. Drone attacks are so powerful nobody can escape them merely injured.
CP: How did you find out this happened?
H: Between our area and Waziristan is an 8 hour journey. The drone attack happened at night time and we all knew about it by the following morning. People who had witnessed the attack had come to tell us and described what they saw of the remnants and damage in the aftermath. They said the attack was so severe that they could not even distinguish the bodies from one another- even the bones of the people were completely blown apart. The dead were completely unrecognisable. My brother in law’s coffin was tightly sealed and we were not allowed to open it to view anything. We had the coffin with us for 30 minutes before it was taken away for burial.
CP: Why do you think the US/Pakistan government do this and what do you think they hope to gain?
H: We just don’t know. We don’t know how much authority Pakistan has given the US to attack our areas and we don’t know until when the US are given free license by the Pakistani government to carry out these drone attacks. So far between 1400-1600 people have died as a result of these attacks. Nobody takes responsibility for these civilian deaths. Ask the journalists or officials for the true statistics, we know that it is 1400-1600 civilians, women and children killed. In this, they would have been lucky to even have 11 or 12 'militants’ amongst them. These attacks are so widespread that even my brother in law who lives in Peshawar was made a victim of it. Who do I appeal to? Where can I go? I don’t even know who to hold responsible for his death and how I do it.
I am shocked that the US can come to attack Pakistan in this way and Pakistan does not even have the authority to question them on the deaths they are causing. The civilians in all these regions are extremely frightened and fearful. They can’t work in the day, nor can they sleep during the night. As soon as they hear the slightest sound of an aeroplane, they flee in panic from their homes and buildings trying to find a place for security. The whole community is in a state of fear and I just cannot explain to you how unbearable these calamities are for the people. Every household has at least half of its people martyred (i.e.: killed) as a result of these attacks. I simply do not understand what the understanding between Pakistan the US is on this matter.
CP: Haider, thank you for taking the time to speak with us and we are sorry for your loss.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
Yeah and the Chicago synagogues are probably harboring Haganah and Stern Gang terrorists.

Goose/Gander
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 29, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/one-law-for-palestinian-and-jewish-terrorists-alike-1.321189

Published 01:35 26.10.10Latest update 01:35 26.10.10
One law, for Palestinian and Jewish terrorists alike
The ongoing damage to the olive groves and disruption of the harvesters' work harm the livelihood of thousands of Palestinian families. A state that respects the rule of law cannot abandon them to extremists whose goal is to dispossess their neighbors of their lands.

Haaretz Editorial

The start of the annual olive harvest has been the signal for an onslaught of violence against Palestinian farmers by groups of settler thugs in recent years. Over the last few days, human rights activists - who, as they do every year, have mobilized to protect the harvesters and deter the criminals - have reported countless incidents: torched groves, chopped-down trees, stolen olives, vandalized tools and even physical attacks on farmers. These incidents join a long list of crimes, including torched mosques and vandalized gravestones, euphemistically known as "price tag operations." There have also been a few reports of settlers' groves being vandalized.

Four years ago, the High Court of Justice noted that the military commander of the territories and his agents - Israel Defense Forces soldiers, border policemen and regular policemen - are obligated to ensure the safety of Palestinian farmers both en route to their fields and while they are working there. Specifically, the justices said, the military commander must allocate forces to protect the farmers' property. The court rejected the army's tactic of declaring certain areas closed military zones in order to protect the Palestinians from settler violence. Nevertheless, the IDF restricts the harvesters to certain hours, saying it lacks sufficient forces to offer full-time protection.


The police have also proven impotent in enforcing the law against Jewish hoodlums. Statistics compiled by the Yesh Din organization show that more than 90 percent of investigations opened by the police's Shai (West Bank ) unit into crimes by Jews against Palestinians have been closed on pretexts such as "insufficient evidence" or "perpetrator unknown." The lesson for the criminals is that they can continue running wild without let or hindrance, and with no fear of the law.

The ongoing damage to the olive groves and disruption of the harvesters' work harm the livelihood of thousands of Palestinian families. A state that respects the rule of law cannot abandon them to extremists whose goal is to dispossess their neighbors of their lands.

The government, starting from the very top, must make it clear to the security forces that as long as Israel controls the West Bank, it is responsible for the welfare of all the area's inhabitants - and that there must be only one law, for Palestinian and Jewish terrorists alike.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
The perfect theme song for Fatty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5JHGi0awgc
ahad aham

Trad climber
Nov 3, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
AIPAC now has a US congress of their dreams...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 8, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
Iran has been at war with us since the days of the peanut man.

It continues to this day.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/11/isaf_and_afghan_forc.php
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 16, 2010 - 10:23am PT
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/11/16/the-incredible-reza-aslan-automated-insult-generator-2/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 16, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
The UN has become almost unworkable and is approaching irrelevant.

This week's The Economist:



Thinking the UNthinkable

Redesigning the United Nations Security Council might not be easy, but it would be a great prize

Nov 11th 2010

TO DO the right deed for the wrong reason, T.S. Eliot wrote, is “the greatest treason”—a familiar one in the world of politics. This week’s culprit is Barack Obama, who has pledged American support for reforming the Security Council of the United Nations (UN), and giving India a permanent seat on it.

By backing India, the president proved that America rates it as a world power and helped set it against China, which quietly opposes permanent Indian membership. And, since UN reform has long been blocked by regional rivalries and powerful countries with something to lose, America can be pretty sure that nothing will come of it.

Mr Obama’s pledge was all the more forceful because his foreign-policy rhetoric has put store by rules and international consensus. Stoking India’s unfulfilled ambition will only fuel the sense that the UN’s most senior body fails to represent the world as it is. That will do the UN no good at all.

To lessen the chance that his India policy comes at the expense of his UN policy, Mr Obama needs to be as good as his word and to put America squarely behind a reform of the Security Council. Reform would be just, it is overdue, and it would make the UN work better. It might even be achievable.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the Security Council’s permanent, veto-wielding membership reflects a bygone age, when what mattered was who won the second world war. An increasingly unrepresentative, anachronistic Security Council speaks with diminishing authority. It is less able to debate the issues that matter, because important actors may be missing. And it is less able to hand down opinions that count, because they do not bear the seal of all the world’s great powers. Whether you think the UN can accomplish a little or a lot, a better Security Council would be able to get more done.

Who shall come to the ball?

Alas, the consensus ends there. Among today’s permanent members France and Britain worry about their declining influence. China objects to Japan as a permanent member. Mexico and Argentina object to Brazil. Italy objects to Germany. African states cannot choose between South Africa and Nigeria. Do you need a Muslim state? And if so, which?

It is a mess and it has been debated fruitlessly for years. Diplomats roll their eyes and say that talking about reform is a waste of breath. Yet international governance can eventually change—just ask the IMF, where Europe is finally giving up some of its clout, or ask the leaders turning up this weekend in Seoul for a summit of the G20, eclipser of the G7.

Any plausible UN reform starts with compromise. The Security Council needs to be large enough to be representative, but small enough to do business. It should reflect real power in the world, but aim not to reward anti-social behaviour. It should strive for the best council for today, but it cannot start with a clean sheet, because the original membership controls the reform under the original rules. Extending permanent membership would help the council, but extending the veto to a lot of new countries risks making it unworkable.

Such ideas help sketch out a plan. Emerging countries need more say. Brazil is the most plausible candidate from Latin America, as Britain’s foreign secretary reiterated this week. In Africa Nigeria is too anarchic, despite its size and supply of peace-keepers. South Africa would be better. Ideally the European Union would have one seat, but Britain and France would veto that, so Germany makes it by default. As an economic power, but not a geopolitical one, Japan barely scrapes in, despite an American promise to back it. A Muslim country would give the council clout: best would be Turkey or Indonesia, which increasingly see themselves as regional powers. And Mr Obama is right: India has the strongest claim of all.

The case for reform is overwhelming. America’s unipolar moment has passed. Rules help in a world where power is shifting. The longer Britain and France wait, the weaker their negotiating position. Russia could probably live with reform, so long as it kept its veto. If China were faced with a united front, it might go along, however reluctantly. Nobody should think that designing a new UN would be easy. But the alternative is a declining UN in a messy, interconnected world. That would not be easy either.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 19, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
Fattrad..everyone on the taco knows Norton is Sara Palin....if you would pay more attention to domestic politics you would have figured this out...that's how he-she met with Cantor....can't explain the Teller meeting though...?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 22, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
clash? what clash?

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/21/afghan-christian-faces-trial-for-alleged-conversion-from-islam/

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
You have it right that the only clash of any real significance to U.S. strategic interests is in Israel. If there was ever a case of "stop the insanity" it's in letting it continue unabated - Israel is it. It's as if the Israelis and North Koreans have a 'play the Americans for chumps' hotline between their capitals given their obdurate foreign policy machinations relative to negotiations are identical in their machinations and the obvious dishonesty of a contrary intent.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 23, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
equating noko (a totalitarian regime that starves its people; shoots dissidents; ignores, flaunts, mocks international law and diplomacy; launches unprovoked attacks against soko) with israel (a democracy that has built a flourishing society in a desert with a standard of living that rivals nations with more, better, and friendler land; includes multiple cultures and religions living peacably together; allows open criticism of its policies and actions by the people, press, and politicians; suffers repeated, daily, attacks on its civilians without immediate retaliation) explains why noko thinks it can get away with attacking soko...because it can...and will...because you libs, including barry, have a warped view of reality
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 23, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
for further reading from vdh, check out "Culture and Carnage" and "Ripples of Battle"



North Korea and the Ripple Effects of Obama’s Foreign Policy

By Victor Davis Hanson
Posted on November 23, 2010 12:51 PM

The North Koreans are sending another loud reminder that they are crazy and unpredictable. They just finished showing off another nuclear facility, which means they want more appeasement money to sorta-kinda monitor it under “international” auspices. This shake-down gambit seems to be the paradigm of the future, an easy way to gain cash, attention, and influence otherwise not accorded such a miserable state. Note that in such cases (cf. Iran), the Chinese are usually in the vicinity.

Nonetheless, the more sinister regions of the world are watching the U.S. response to the shelling, for either a yellow or a green light for their own agendas. More enlightened states are watching, too, for indications of the American reaction should the trouble spread to their corners of the world.

But after 22 months of apologizing, bowing, and contextualizing supposed American sins from the trivial (lamenting the Arizona law in a meeting with the Chinese) to the profound (the mythical Cairo speech, unilaterally pressing Israel right out of the starting gate), the Obama administration has sent the message that it may not be so comfortable with America’s past unilateral responsibilities to its allies, and may even sympathize with some of the grievances of our purported enemies. Whether this assessment is fair or not, that’s the message they’ve sent.

Dismissing the idea that past global problems might transcend George W. Bush, this administration operated as if a charismatic world citizen, with reset magic, could win over the globe to a U.N.-sponsored utopia. These false assumptions intrigued the curious abroad — why would Obama seek to advance such absurd notions about global problems having originated with U.S. belligerence circa 2001–2009 and being resolved by U.S. empathy in 2009–2010? Apparently, as we are now learning, North Korea wants to find out the answer.

In general, listlessness and misdirection in Washington always ripples out to the world abroad within a year or two. Sanctimonious Carterism had confirmed the image of a paralytic America by 1979, which may be why that year saw the Chinese in Vietnam, the Russians in Afghanistan, Communists on the rise in Central America, hostages in Tehran, the end of the Shah, and the rise of an emboldened radical Islam. When Nixon and his congressional opponents wrecked U.S. foreign policy in the long dark days of Watergate, by 1973-4 the world became a very unstable place, with the Yom Kippur War, oil embargoes, an imploding Southeast Asia, and the Turkish invasion of Cyprus.

The tragedy of all this is that, once a sense of American self-confidence is lost, the result is usually a lot of post facto, herky-jerky catch-up efforts to restore credibility. E.g., a once-sermonizing Carter suddenly boycotting the Olympics and establishing the Carter doctrine in the Middle East, or the U.S. 1973 global alert during the Yom Kippur War, or Gerald Ford and the 1975 Mayaguez incident.

To deter North Korea, we should now express and follow through on the sort of solidarity that is unquestioned, a kind of solidarity that has been sorely lacking in the last two years with Israel, Britain, Poland, and the Czech Republic.

And, in a larger sense, the commander-in-chief needs to stop his contextualizing and apologizing, especially this pernicious messianic notion that, as an empathetic and post-national president, his mission is to redeem a previously culpable America. Otherwise, in the next two years that nonsense is going to get people killed.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 25, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hApkK-aAJM96xjQF3EaYkwyFiIvQ?docId=CNG.e5674f2588c170342227835c325968e3.211

just sayin'.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 26, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
WTF is up with the Saudi King coming here for medical care? He'll prolly have a jewish doctor too. So the American medical care is better than Saudi Arabia? And now it's cool if a Jooooo cares for him?

The irony....
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 30, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
A satellite image of Tehran airport taken by Google Earth has outraged Iranian government officials as it reveals a Star of David on the roof of the headquarters of the national carrier Iran Air.
Iranian media explained that the building was constructed by Israeli engineers during the time of the Shah.

LOL! Nice work boyz!!! Nothing like a latent stick in the eye when it's most needed!
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 30, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
LOL! Nice work boyz!!! Nothing like a latent stick in the eye when it's most needed!

Weak sauce.
Can't wait till you are blind.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 1, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
nobody made the palestinians leave in 1948...also, "land" does not mean population; this "land" was sparsely populated desert...until the joooooooooos made it flourish


oh yeah, and, perhaps we haven't lost the clash after all (this is badass):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101201/sc_afp/usmilitaryweaponsafghanistan

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
What bookworm said ^^^^^^^^.

Just because they made it flourish isn't enough you would argue though, right?

Check Allah's teachings though wherein he state's that it is the duty of 'believers' (Muslims) to gather lands of unbelievers for the umma.

The Israelites had possesion of that land, is it theirs? Was Spain (andalusia) really an Islamic state of the umma originally?

Yet they claim it's theirs even though they had their asses handed to them in the end. So what are the 'sacred Islamic lands' that the subsequent Islamic scholars talk about that need to be reconquered in the name of the umma and Islam?

It seems they want it both ways.

Read up on this in; http://www.amazon.com/Al-Qaeda-Reader-Raymond-Ibrahim/dp/038551655X

I'm still cruising it and I would offer it to somebody, but don't be a Jew, buy your own copy and read it!

I wanna keep my copy. The book, largely quoted from Al Zawahiri texts, lays out why Muslims HAVE to hate infidels and either lie to them, or kill them if they are to gain Allah's praise.

This is why Islam needs a reformation. Or needs to be slaught.

But Zawahiri in these texts, I doubt, speaks for many, many Muslims. He's just trying to rally his troops to kill where he is to cowardly to do the same.

He conviently points out that you should 'speak out' if you are incapable of 'Offensive Jihad'. Yeah....so he can sit back and watch Muslims die for the cause he interrprets to be just and holy in the eyes of Allah.

Isn't that convenient.

Coward!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
Read again...genius...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
Matt, I'd be willing to mail this book that is well documented and footnoted if you promise to return it at Facelift, or next time we meet.

It's very eye-opening, and based on actual texts and released documents.

E-mail me privately if ya want it...Or anybody else. I just want it back eventually. I've highlighted the really relevant sections.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 2, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
bluering: I'm still cruising it and I would offer it to somebody, but don't be a Jew, buy your own copy and read it!
That is offensive. Please remove it.

It also seems to contradict your apparent support of the state of Israel.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 3, 2010 - 11:47am PT
when the eu collapses, anybody who expects a "let's all get through this together" response knows nothing about history or human nature; it's going to get ugly fast, and i can tell you who will come out on top

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFkkIpj4kHc

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
This is a little scary - it seems the ultras are taking over the IDF.
Not surprising except for the extent and rapidity of it.

from "Newsweek":

Onward, Jewish Soldiers
A surge of ‘knitted skullcaps’ is transforming Israel’s military—and that worries their secular countrymen.



Among the elite troops of the Israeli military’s Maglan special-forces unit, Naftali Bennett was an oddity. As an officer in the unit in the early 1990s, he commanded more than 80 young men, all of them secular and many from kibbutzim communities aligned with the left-center Labor Party. Bennett is an observant Jew, and among combat officers throughout the military he was one of the few who wore a yarmulke, didn’t travel on Saturdays, and never ate cheeseburgers because of the Jewish ban on mixing milk and meat.

Now long a civilian, Bennett had a chance recently to visit with new recruits in his old unit. Two things struck him: the large number of religious Jews among the young men, and the Army’s extraordinary efforts to accommodate them. “In my day, no one gave it a thought,” he says.

A transformation is sweeping the Israeli military: deeply religious Jews are now filling leadership positions in numbers far exceeding their share of the general population. Given that religious Israelis tend to be more hawkish than most, the trend raises a real question about whether Israel can rely on the Army to implement the toughest parts of any future peace agreement with the Palestinians.

U.S. efforts to keep the talks alive continued last week as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government weighed a new 90-day ban on construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. But if a peace deal is ever achieved, it would undoubtedly require the evacuation of at least some settlements—a job for the Army. Some defense analysts and former officers worry that the military’s new religiosity could lead to mass insubordination. “If soldiers decide they don’t want to participate, that’s one thing,” says Mikhael Manekin, a reserve lieutenant who co-chairs the left-wing group Breaking the Silence. “If commanders don’t want to participate, that would be much more worrying.” (Manekin says all his commanding officers were settlers during his four years of active duty.)

The threat isn’t as farfetched as it sounds. Ever since the government demolished the West Bank settlement of Homesh in 2005, former residents have kept trying to establish an illegal outpost there, and authorities have kept sending troops to evict them. A year ago, during swearing-in ceremonies for new recruits of the Shimshon Battalion in Jerusalem, several soldiers unfurled a banner proclaiming: SHIMSHON DOES NOT EVACUATE HOMESH. The military court-martialed the perpetrators, sentenced them to the brig, and expelled them from their unit. But in the weeks that followed, similar signs were displayed at two other units’ training bases.

Although the military publishes little information about the backgrounds of its enlistees, a recent issue of the defense journal Maarachot reported that in recent years some 30 percent of graduates from the infantry officers’ course have defined themselves as “Zionist-religious,” up from only 2.5 percent 20 years ago. (About 12 percent of Israelis in general choose that label.) Many of those fledgling lieutenants, along with a number of higher-ranking combat officers, were drawn from Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and some are residents of outposts—smaller, makeshift settlements—established without authorization from the government.

The mere specter of widespread refusal is enough to make the government think twice before ordering evacuations, whether of settlements or of outposts, says sociologist Yagil Levy, who specializes in military trends. (The threat might explain why most outposts remain standing despite Israel’s promise to dismantle dozens of them under a U.S. initiative back in 2003.) Some analysts have suggested that the police should handle future evacuations, rather than the Army.

The rise within the military of the “knitted skullcaps” has been building for years. In the 1990s, after the controversial first Lebanon war, many liberal Israelis stopped encouraging their kids to go beyond the mandatory three years of national service. “We secular people can only blame ourselves for no longer being able to convince our kids to spend as many years in the military as in the past,” says Avshalom Vilan, a former member of Parliament from the left-wing Meretz Party and a kibbutznik.

At about the same time, more religious Israelis were concluding that their community should have played a larger role in building the country’s secular institutions decades earlier. Embracing military service more fervently was a way to make up for lost time. “The religious community has to be involved in all public institutions, not just the Army,” says Rabbi Eli Sadan, 62, at his home in the settlement of Eli, deep in the West Bank. “That’s the revolution we’re creating.” Sadan oversees one of a string of West Bank pre-military academies where rabbis teach Torah and Jewish philosophy for up to two years while preparing students for military service and imbuing them (this is where some secular Israelis get nervous) with a religious sense of mission. Most graduates forgo the option of serving in strictly religious units, mixing instead with the general population.

The religious-run military academies have had a big role in reshaping the Army. Of Eli’s 2,500 alumni, about half have served as officers in combat detachments, and a quarter have spent time in the military’s most elite units. Twenty-one of the graduates have been killed in action, most in recent years. Their names and photos are displayed on the wall of a memorial room at the academy, except for one—a lieutenant colonel, killed in Lebanon; his unit is so secretive that his photo cannot be shown even after his death, say people at the academy.

That kind of heroism has brought respect. Nevertheless, critics worry about the loyalty of religious Jews in uniform: if tested, would they obey their commanders or their rabbis? In fact, a number of rabbis in West Bank settlements have repeatedly urged soldiers not to evacuate Jews from settlements in case the order is ever given. “How can anyone even consider commanding a Jew, for whom the mitzvah [commandment] to settle the Land of Israel is so central, to destroy a settlement and to displace its residents?” wrote the influential Rabbi Eliezer Melamed of the Har Bracha settlement in an online column last year. When “a ruling of the Israeli government clashes with the essential commandment to settle the Land of Israel,” Melamed wrote, “there is clear and unquestionable preference for the law of the Torah.”

To be sure, not all religious Jews support the settler movement. Even among those who do, many believe that maintaining the Army’s cohesion is more important than even the most sacred political battle. Sadan is quick to point out that few religious soldiers disobeyed orders during Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. But the evacuation of Gaza involved only 10,000 settlers. They number 300,000 in the West Bank, which is much holier to religious Jews. That settlers are among the company and battalion commanders serving in the West Bank is itself problematic, says sociologist Levy. He cites cases of soldiers who leaked information to settlers about planned evacuations of outposts, giving settlers time to organize resistance.

Others say Israel’s center of gravity will move further than ever to the right as religious Jews retire from the military’s senior ranks and move on to prestigious roles in civilian life. Bennett, the former member of Maglan, is a good example. He went on to found a startup company that he eventually sold to a U.S. firm for $145 million. Bennett now serves as the director of the settlers’ main political arm, the Yesha Council. “It’s a sea change for Israel,” he says. He’s certainly no oddity now.




http://www.newsweek.com/2010/11/20/are-religious-troops-changing-israel-s-military.html

AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 3, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
Fattrad:
The Saudi's are scum and Obama knows it:

Fattrad, finally we agree on something.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 3, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
bluering: I'm still cruising it and I would offer it to somebody, but don't be a Jew, buy your own copy and read it!

No, I threw that out there for the PC crowd. Plus it's a gimme for someone to use against me to call me insensitive or a neo-Nazi.

Run with it!!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 3, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
From SWJ

Has a war on Iran already begun?

This week's WikiLeaks release of State Department cables highlighted the growing concerns of numerous Sunni Arabs leaders over Iran's nuclear program. Bahrain's king, for instance, pleaded to a U.S. diplomat that the Iranian nuclear program "must be stopped." In another leaked cable, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia supposedly implored the United States to "cut of the head of the snake" (presumably referring to the government in Tehran) before it was too late.

But how to stop the Iranian nuclear program? In yet another leaked cable, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates dismissed the traditional way, an air campaign, concluding that it "would only delay Iranian plans by one to three years, while unifying the Iranian people to be forever embittered against the attacker." Left unsaid by Gates, but no doubt at the front of his mind, are the bitter consequences of the U.S. military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. For its efforts in these two very visible wars, the United States spent a huge fortune, lost thousands of soldiers and earned opprobrium from many quarters of the world. It is little wonder why Gates would be quick to find a reason to avoid yet another military commitment.

But Iran also seems to be under assault from a different kind of warfare. First was the arrival of Stuxnet, a highly sophisticated malware worm specifically designed to attack machinery produced by Siemens Corporation, a German industrial conglomerate. According to FPRI, a think-tank in Philadelphia, Stuxnet (introduced into Iran's nuclear program by an infiltrator wielding a USB flash drive) targets Siemens-designed Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition (SCADA) systems. Some anonymous adversary has apparently concluded that Iran's uranium enrichment facilities, archetypes of large-scale industrial processes, are highly suitable candidates for this type of cyber attack.

Iran's nuclear program is also under attack from another very old-fashioned method: the anonymous assassin. This week one high-level Iranian nuclear scientist was killed and another wounded when they were attacked by assassins on motorcycles who attached bombs to their cars. In January, another Iranian nuclear scientist was killed by a bomb.

This covert war -- involving assassinations, cyber-sabotage, and perhaps other measures yet to be revealed -- will, like Gates's conclusion about air strikes, only delay Iran's nuclear program. Iran will adjust by neutralizing Stuxnet, providing better protection for its remaining nuclear scientists, and replacing its human losses with new physics graduates. The anonymous adversary will likely find it increasingly difficult to penetrate Iranian security now that those forces are on alert.

Is this covert war worth the bother? It is likely achieving the same delay that an air campaign would have achieved but without the massive diplomatic and economic consequences of an overt preventive war. For the worried anonymous adversary, that isn't nothing. But a strategy of delay is necessarily attached to a vague hope that something fortuitous inside Iran will occur while the covert delaying attacks proceed. In this case, the adage "hope is not a plan" was never more true. When the anonymous attacker reaches the last page in his covert action playbook, the air campaign operations order will still be looking down from the bookshelf.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2010 - 09:23am PT
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2010/12/great-satan-lauds-assange-as-infidel-of-the-year.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
A shocking revelation in today's LA Times:

Majority of Muslims want Islam in politics, poll says

They have mixed feelings about the militant groups Hamas and Hezbollah, the survey shows.

By Meris Lutz, Los Angeles Times
December 6, 2010


Reporting from Beirut — A majority of Muslims around the world welcome a significant role for Islam in their countries' political life, according to a new poll from the Pew Research Center, but have mixed feelings toward militant religious groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

According to the survey, majorities in Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan and Nigeria would favor changing current laws to allow stoning as a punishment for adultery, hand amputation for theft and death for those who convert from Islam to another religion. About 85% of Pakistani Muslims said they would support a law segregating men and women in the workplace.

Muslims in Indonesia, Egypt, Nigeria and Jordan were among the most enthusiastic, with more than three-quarters of poll respondents in those countries reporting positive views of Islam's influence in politics: either that Islam had a large role in politics, and that was a good thing, or that it played a small role, and that was bad.

Turkish Muslims were the most conflicted, with just more than half reporting positive views of Islam's influence in politics. Turkey has struggled in recent years to balance a secular political system with an increasingly fervent Muslim population.

Many Muslims described a struggle in their country between fundamentalists and modernizers, especially those who may have felt threatened by the rising tides of conservatism. Among those respondents who identified a struggle, most tended to side with the modernizers. This was especially true in Lebanon and Turkey, where 84% and 74%, respectively, identified themselves as modernizers as opposed to fundamentalists.

In Egypt and Nigeria, however, more people were pulling in the other direction. According to the poll, 59% in Egypt and 58% in Nigeria who said there was a struggle identified with the fundamentalists.

Despite an overall positive view of Islam's growing role in politics, militant religious organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah spurred mixed reactions. Both groups enjoyed fairly strong support in Jordan, home to many Palestinians, and Lebanon, where Hezbollah is based. Muslim countries that do not share strong cultural, historical and political ties to the Palestinian cause, such as Pakistan and Turkey, tended to view Hezbollah and Hamas negatively.

Al Qaeda was rejected by strong majorities in every Muslim country except Nigeria, which gave the group a 49% approval rating.

The poll was conducted April 12 to May 7 in seven countries with large Muslim populations. About 8,000 people were interviewed face to face, and the survey has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points for Pakistan and 4 percentage points for the other countries.

Lutz is a special correspondent.
Copyright © 2010, Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-1206-muslim-poll-20101206,0,252922.story

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
Peripheraly OT.

Most times I've seen this guy as he's been right on the money.

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2010/10/4757970

Lefties hate him.

I think he nailed it this time.



philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 8, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
Well the Obama administration just decided to withdraw a weapons deal with Israel.

Three weeks ago, we asked you to make your voices heard by calling on the Obama Administration to withdraw its offer to Israel of 20 F-35 fighter jets, valued at $3 billion; a pledge not to request further "settlement freezes"; and a commitment to veto UN Security Council action affirming a Palestinian state, all in exchange for a paltry 90-day "settlement moratorium."

A large number of you responded and, yesterday, the State Department announced that it had withdrawn its offer to Israel. The announcement marked an important reversal by the Administration. But it said something more important...


http://www.aaper.org/site/lookup.asp?c=quIXL8MPJpE&b=3796979
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 8, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
Go team S.A.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 8, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
A mere three billion for selling US fighter jets to Israel?


Why bother to sell them to them.

Just make out a sales contract, no need to fill in the amount.


Three billion IS the amount of US taxpayer's "foreign aid" to Israel.

Its a freebee.

And they wonder why the Muslim nations hate America.

When they see our armament used against them by Israel.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 8, 2010 - 04:33pm PT


Socialism?


The USA IS the Nanny State for Israel.

Pure socialism.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 8, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
There will never be a peace accord until we tell Israel we aren't going to release another check until an agreement is signed.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 8, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
It is a WALL that dwarfs the Berlin wall. And it's path is constantly being moved to gobble up more Palestinian land. What will really be left for them once the Zionist feeding frenzy is brought to a halt?


Check out the work being done by Amr Khaled.
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Dec 8, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
Being able to free think, speak and write your own opinion publicly is of great value. No one should have to fear for their lives because of what political or religious party they belong to or write about. Religion is truly a poison on both sides when it comes to this issue. Violence, suppression and a deep hatred for the Jewish people is why Islam is not a peaceful Religion. Islamic law itself provides the evidence. They’re the Nazis of theses times.
Osama Binladen said that they would not rest until the flag of Islam flew over the White House. I think we should take him and the Iranians seriously. Don’t YOU.

Dawg.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 10, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
Evidence that not all Israelis and Jews (American or Israeli) are as reactionary and imperialistic as FatTrad:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/opinion/10iht-edcohen.html?_r=1&hp
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 10, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
Some of US are idiots?


Oh Fatty, that is the pot calling kettle black.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 10, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
Darfur:

Let’s see: jets go to Israel, Israel paint and ships them either to Egypt for future deal making or to South Africa to SANDF [South African National Defence Force] for use in the Sudan. South Africa gets what they want since their forces are aging and lack funding [they will forget a couple of things since their relationship with Israel are warming up]. Israel will help with the training and with paid mercs from the US and every other EU country will come. Israel gets what they want in either scenario; US/CIA gets what they want by not being in the picture. More guns and ammo made, missiles like the one Klimmer says.

Same story nothing new.

Will be not on Wikilinks or newer reconstructed web site in near future since this deal will be used the old fashion way: no phones, no cables,no texting, just communicating one on one in a very noising tity bar in Bangkok, notes passed and then burned and eaten. Suitcases of cash on their way.

One thing about Israel they keep their mouths shut on some things. They do have good software on if you are lying or not. Rumor is that US international airports will be using this tech or are now using them for incoming passengers and when passing them your passport will have to tell who and what was the reason for the overseas visit or why are you here and for Customs. Take a lot of valium just before landing.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 10, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
We beg you Fatty.


Pull OUT the butt plug.


NOW
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 10, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
Yawn, who cares.

90% of Americans could not find Israel on a map.


And 100% of them would be pissed if they only knew that 3 billion dollars

of their tax dollars go to keep Israel a Nanny Child State.


Pure Socialism.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
It just Stux for the Iranians.




"Ralph Langner, the German expert who was among the first to study and raise alarms about Stuxnet, said he was not surprised by the development.

“The Iranians don’t have the depth of knowledge to handle the worm or understand its complexity,” he said, raising the possibility that they may never succeed in eliminating it.

“Here is their problem. They should throw out every personal computer involved with the nuclear program and start over, but they can’t do that. Moreover, they are completely dependent on outside companies for the construction and maintenance of their nuclear facilities. They should throw out their computers as well. But they can’t,“ he explained. “They will just continually re-infect themselves.”

“With the best of expertise and equipment it would take another year for the plants to function normally again because it is so hard to get the worm out. It even hides in the back-up systems. But they can’t do it,” he said.

And Iran’s anti-worm effort may have had another setback. In Tehran, men on motorcycles attacked two leading nuclear scientists on their way to work. Using magnetic bombs, the motorcyclists pulled alongside their cars and attached the devices.

One scientist was wounded and the other killed. Confirmed reports say that the murdered scientist was in charge of dealing with the Stuxnet virus at the nuclear plants."

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/12/09/despite-iranian-claims-stuxnet-worm-causing-nuclear-havoc/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 17, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
So, Fatty, what's the news from al Jazeera? Maybe a somewhat different spin than your Israelographic nonsense? From the perspective of the Arab and Muslim public, and their governments, Israel doesn't even make the top ten in terms of real concerns.

Anyway, tempted to post a bunch of stuff from al Jazeera, but probably won't.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 17, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
Fatty

Think you had said on another thread and agreed;

"It is beyond you or I or Obama to change the minds of religious clerics in the ME, their minds were made up in 743, we are merely continuing the Crusades."

Another cleric but on this side of the street.


Bush would not have been in office if it was not for him, another reason why half of this country is still in the stone ages and can’t get anything done. He predicted lots of clashes, when the world was going to end 30 years ago, too many to quote here but people believed and still follow his ignorance. Only difference he makes a ton of money by it.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 20, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
Fatty posted on another thread you might have missed it so posting it again.

“What good is money is one cannot use it to oppress his fellow man”

Did your fellow buddy Dick give you that advice?

It’s official but sure would have been nice to see him in jail, plus he isn’t looking too good these days would not miss him when he goes. corruption, murders everything to make a buck or profit.



Are you sure he'll make to this year for the clean up.

Corruption is corruption you are part of it.


From The Guardian Nigeria Dec 14 2010 [half of article]

THE legal and diplomatic methods employed by the Nigerian Government in its on-going efforts to bring to book officials of Halliburton, including United States (U.S.) former Vice President, Richard “Dick” Cheney may have yielded some revenue for the country.

Following the filing of charges of criminal conspiracy against officials of Halliburton and Cheney, fervent calls were made to the Nigerian Negotiation Team and correspondences were initiated by some former top officials of the U.S. government and Halliburton culminating in a meeting last week in London.

At the said meeting concluded on Saturday, December 11 in London, between Halliburton officials and Federal Government’s negotiation team, the oil services firm resolved to pay to Nigeria the sum of N20 billion as criminal penalty. Halliburton also said it would get the U.S. government under the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) to recover the outstanding $132 million, which is currently frozen in Switzerland and transfer same to Nigeria.

The said sum is the balance of the total bribe sum, which was frozen in Switzerland after the lid was blown off the bribe-for- contract deal, The Guardian learnt.

Investigations by The Guardian showed that these terms of settlement were reached after intense discussions in London between both parties, with former U.S. President George Bush (Snr.) and former U.S. Secretary of State, James Baker, joining the discussions via teleconference.

An impeccable source, who confirmed this development said: “Nigeria had fruitful discussions with Halliburton officials and some persons who occupied the highest office in the United States in the past phoned in to join in the discussions. I can confirm to you that by Friday night we had agreed on terms of settlement.”

The Nigerian negotiation team led by the Attorney-General of Federation and Justice Minister, Mohammed Bello Adoke (SAN) is composed of Secretary of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), Emmanuel Akomaye, a private legal practitioner, Damian Dodo (SAN), Special Prosecutor Godwin Obla and the Executive Secretary of the National Human Rights Commission, Roland Ewubare, whose international clout and experience has been very useful in the negotiations.

On Halliburton’s negotiation team at the meeting was its Chief Executive and Chairman, David Lesar, who took over from Cheney; the President of the firm, Eastern Hemisphere, Ahmed Lofty; Deputy General Counsel, James Ferguson; Oghogho Akpata of Templars Law firm and other senior executives of Halliburton drawn from the United Kingdom, Dubai and Dallas.

While Halliburton was seeking to pay a more lenient criminal penalty, the Nigerian officials stood their ground, insisting that the U.S. government could not have reaped more financial benefits on a crime committed in the Nigerian shores while Nigeria is left to pick the crumbs, the source disclosed.

“Government will not settle for anything less than what these firms have paid to the U.S. government. In fact, it is government’s view that it is better to liquidate criminal corporation than settle for anything less than the criminal fines and disgorgement paid to the U.S”, he stated.

Last week, he had explained to The Guardian that under the U.S. model, erring companies or individuals are to pay criminal penalty or fine in multiple of the amount of the transaction, disgorge all profits made from that deal and institute a three-year scheme of corporate compliance.

Already, the U.S. government has received about $1.28 billion in form of criminal fines and disgorgement of profits thereof from various firms involved, with Siemens paying €30 million, Halliburton $579 million, Snamprogetti and Technip paying $240 million each as fine and disgorgement to the U.S. government even though the crimes were committed in Nigeria and against Nigeria, the source explained.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Dec 21, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
Fatts,
How much does Chernick pay you?
ahad aham

Trad climber
Dec 21, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175334/tomgram%3A_max_blumenthal%2C_the_great_fear_/#more
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 21, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
Who would be interested in donating to a fund to send DaftRat on a visit to the Middle East? He's never been, and I believe that such a trip would open his eyes to reality. Proposed itinerary:
 A week in a kibbutz on the occupied west bank, speaking solely Hebrew and Arabic. No internet.
 A week in a tenement in Gaza.
 A week in Jerusalem, where he will have guided tours of the holy places of all the different religions.
 A week in Cairo.
 A week in each of Baghdad, Riyadh, Amman, Damascus, Istanbul, Fez, and one or more of the emirates cities.
 A week on a camel.

There is, of course, the minor problem that the Israeli religious police may not recognize Dafty as being Jewish, while those in Arab and Muslim countries will. Plus he'll have to have two passports.

I'll start by donating two cents to this worthy cause - in fact, I just did.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 22, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
19 days remaining until you can register for the "Mass Casualty Conference" in San Diego.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Dec 22, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
Just how far will Islam go???????

Hopefully to your home or business.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 22, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
Busted!!!

http://aussiecriminals.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/carnita-matthews-caught-out-using-playing-the-racist-game/

Have fun in jail, bitch!

Stop the presses! Another one???

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340735/Abu-Hamzas-daughter-law-arrested-trying-smuggle-sim-card-Belmarsh-Prison-burka.html

Did I say have fun in jail yet? Beeatch?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 22, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
Who will be the next Charles Martel or Saladin?
Which, as they lived four centuries apart, and one was a Frankish Christian, and the other a sultan of Egypt, makes even less sense than Fatty's usual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 23, 2010 - 09:51am PT
The (propaganda) clash comes home:
"Seattle peace activists are planning to post anti-Israel ads on the sides of local commuter buses protesting US support for the Jewish state, prompting outcry from Jewish groups.

The banners show Palestinian children standing around a demolished building, with the caption "Israeli war crimes: your tax dollars at work."

A group called the Seattle Mideast Awareness Campaign paid King County 1,794 dollars to plaster the ads on the sides of 12 buses starting Monday to coincide with the three-year anniversary of the start of Israel's war with Gaza.

The ads are due to run for four weeks.

Operation Cast Lead, launched by Israel in response to hundreds of rockets fired into the Jewish state, killed 1,400 Palestinians, mostly civilians. Thirteen Israelis, 10 of them soldiers, also died. "
More........http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.51f509667873509af134d2232a002dd1.61&show_article=1
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
They are still pissed about Ferdinand and Isabella finaly kicking them out of Andalus
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
Just demonstrating your historical illiteracy again.

Granada fell in 1492. That was the end of the Reconquista.










TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
The Granada War (Spanish: Guerra de Granada) was a series of military campaigns between 1482 and 1492, during the reign of the Catholic Monarchs (los Reyes Católicos) Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, against the Nasrid dynasty's Emirate of Granada. It ended with the defeat of Granada and its annexation by Castile, ending Islamic rule, Al-Andalus, on the Iberian peninsula and completing the Reconquista.


Google it!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 27, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
He kills them every day with drone strikes in Pakistan. And he is shooting vehicles, which means he now has ground intel penetrating the tribes.

25 chumps pushing daisies today alone....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
Top Gear has really got their panties in a wad.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1342138/Top-Gear-stars-cause-religious-storm-dressing-burkas-Boxing-Day-special.html

350,000 fatwas last year. That would put anyone in a suicidal mood.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1342140/Love-vuvuzela-dont-nap-Muslim-scholars-issue-350-000-New-Year-fatwas.html
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 28, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
do i laugh or cry?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJEXKaxxPUs

ok, definitely cry at the american rep acknowledging america's "human rights" failures
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 28, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
15 more drone-zapped today. Coming back across the border into Pak from Afghanistan.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/12/us_predators_strike_13.php
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 29, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
On the other side, the clash appears real as well.

"Hold on to your hats because this post is going to be a wild ride. New and astonishing developments in the case of Prisoner X, known to a source within Ehud Barak’s inner circle as Ali Reza Asgari, retired Iran Revolutionary Guard general and former deputy defense minister."
http://www.eurasiareview.com/opinion/opinion-opinion/iranian-general-murdered-in-israel%E2%80%99s-ayalon-prison-28122010/

Asgari disappeared from a trip to Turkey in 1997 and hasn't been seen since.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 30, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
Jesus was a Palestinian.
http://tarrytown-ny.actforamericachapters.org/2010/12/24/jesus-a-palestinian-pa-tv/


"One of the ways the Palestinian Authority attempts to create a Palestinian history is to deny the Judean/Jewish nationality of Jesus, and misrepresent him as a “Palestinian.”

Palestinian Media Watch has documented this ongoing Palestinian Authority historical revision. Recently on PA TV, the author Samih Ghanadreh from Nazareth was interviewed about his book “Christianity and Its Connection to Islam.”

The following is the transcript of the discussion describing Jesus as a Palestinian:

Religious program on PA TV: This is our religion
Author: “The Shahid (Martyr) President Yasser Arafat used to say: ‘Jesus was the first Palestinian Shahid (Martyr).’ I heard him say that sentence many times.”
PA TV Host: “He [Jesus] was a Palestinian; no one denies that.”
Author: “He [Jesus] was the first Palestinian Shahid (Martyr). He (Arafat) attributed this Martyrdom to Palestine, as well.” Click To View
[PA TV (Fatah), Dec. 3, 2010]"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 1, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Tomato-fell-sandwich-message-God-says-Muslim/article-3055012-detail/article.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/4/0/2977/Opinion/J%E2%80%99accuse.aspx
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 2, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
Survivors of the Holocaust warn of the rise of neo-fascism in Israel:
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Reputation+tolerance+tarnished+fascism+rises/4047439/story.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
"The Economist"

Missiles all round


All sides have kept the peace by building up their arms.


Dec 29th 2010 | from PRINT EDITION

ISRAEL has enjoyed unusual quiet on its northern and southern borders since its short, bruising wars against Hizbullah, the Lebanese guerrilla force, in 2006, and Hamas, the Islamist Palestinian faction ruling Gaza, two years later. Yet many fear that the calm is illusory. “The next round won’t be focused on one theatre but rather will incorporate two or three,” warned Israel’s outgoing head of military intelligence, Amos Yadlin, in November. “It will be much bigger, much wider in scope, and with many more casualties.”

Such warnings should be taken seriously. Rearmament is proceeding apace. Hizbullah, which lobbed some 4,000 projectiles at Israel in its five-week war, is thought now to deploy 40,000-50,000 rockets. These are mostly short-range—those well behind UN peacekeeping lines could not reach the Israeli border, so would have to be smuggled forward. But its Zelzal II missiles, supplied by Syria and Iran, carry payloads of up to 600kg and are accurate to within 100 metres at a range of 200km. Hamas’s far smaller arsenal has a few rockets that can reach Tel Aviv, Israel’s largest city. In December an Israeli tank was struck from Gaza by a Russian-made, laser-guided Kornet missile, a sophisticated weapon used to great effect by Hizbullah, but hitherto absent from Gaza.

Israel itself has long been superior in weaponry and manpower. In 2006 it destroyed nearly all of Hizbullah’s long-range rockets on the first day of fighting. Since then it has also muscled up, bolstered by American military aid, new attack helicopters and heavier guided bombs. The best of its armour is now protected by systems to deflect anti-tank missiles, and Israel is erecting a three-tier missile-defence shield against long, medium and short-range rockets—helped by $405m in extra American funding.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jan 4, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
You are right on about wikileaks Fatty

WikiLeaks: Iran Can Attack Israel With Less Than 12 Minutes Warning
VOA News 03 January 2011

U.S. diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks reveal that Israel believes it would have 10-12 minutes' warning should Iran launch a rocket attack against the country.

The Norwegian daily Aftenposten published a cable Monday from the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv that discusses a Nov 15, 2009 meeting between an American congressional delegation and Israel's military chief.

According to the daily, Gabi Ashkenazi told the delegation that Iran has 300 Shihab missiles that could reach Israel. He added that Israel's biggest threats were the Iranian-backed Hamas militant group in the Gaza Strip and Hezbollah in Lebanon, which has more than 40,000 rockets that can reach almost any point in Israel.

In the cable, Ashkenazi is quoted as saying Israel was preparing its army for a major war in the Middle East. He added that the Israeli army sends out unmanned planes over Lebanon to identify potential targets.

The Israeli defense chief said Israel is not able to protect its entire population despite its anti-missile defense systems. He said 1 million Israelis could be exposed to missiles that cannot be fought from the air.

Some information for this report was provided by AP.

And Fatty that is just from Iran.


From Aljazeera:

Haaretz on Sunday quoted an unnamed Israeli official as saying that a US counterpart told him Washington was deeply disappointed with Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister and Labour party leader for failing to deliver on promises that he could win government approval for a fresh freeze.

Some Labour ministers in Netanyahu's right-dominated coalition government are calling for Barak to take Labour out of the government if there is no progress towards peace talks.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, wants the international community, spearheaded by the peacemaking Quartet of the United Nations, the United States, Russia and the European Union, to come up with a new peace plan.

"We demand that the Middle East Quartet and the various UN bodies, headed by the Security Council, draft a peace plan which conforms with international law, instead of keeping up negotiations which do not solve the problem," he said in a televised address last week.

Netanyahu said on Sunday that he was prepared for an immediate resumption of face-to-face talks with Abbas "until white smoke emerges," a statement from his office said.

If Abbas were to accept the invitation, it quoted Netanyahu as saying, they could discuss all key aspects of the dispute.

"We shall very soon know if we shall be able to reach an agreement," Netanyahu said.

On Monday Abbas said in Tunis he was "always ready" to continue peace talks as soon settlement building stops.

"We are always ready to continue negotiations in the event that Israel comes to accept the stopping of its settlement plans," Abbas said after talks with Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, the Tunisian president.


Ok! Fatty: Let's see if they get their funding and planes from the US that have not been delivered, should know by the end of the week. Lot's of weapons besides Iran aimed towards a tiny box, still think it is worth it for some stinking condo's.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 5, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
from nyp:

"Hate crimes are up 14 percent across the state, but those against Muslims are a tiny fraction. Of the 683 reported to police in 2009, only 11 targeted Muslims. Yes, 11. In 2008, there were eight.

Compare that with the 251 against Jews, or 37 percent of the total"


and just for "fun":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1gMsLdVCu0&feature=fvsr

skip to the 1:03 mark for the stuff relevant to this thread
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 7, 2011 - 11:53am PT
January 7, 2011 12:00 A.M.

Who Are the Real Hijackers of Islam?
Maybe the hijackers are the peaceful ones.


For years, we’ve heard how the peaceful religion of Islam has been hijacked by extremists.

What if it’s the other way around? Worse, what if the peaceful hijackers are losing their bid to take over the religion?

That certainly seems to be the case in Pakistan.

Salman Taseer, a popular Pakistani governor, was assassinated this week because he was critical of Pakistan’s blasphemy law.

Specifically, Taseer was supportive of a Christian woman, Asia Bibi, who has been sentenced to death for “insulting Muhammad.”

Bibi had offered some fellow farm laborers some water. They refused to drink it because Christian hands purportedly make water unclean. An argument followed. She defended her faith, which they took as synonymous with attacking theirs. Later, she says, a mob of her accusers raped her.

Naturally, a Pakistani judge sentenced her to hang for blasphemy.

And Governor Taseer, who bravely visited her and sympathized with her plight, had 40 bullets pumped into him by one of his own bodyguards.

“Salmaan Taseer is a blasphemer and this is the punishment for a blasphemer,” Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri said to the television cameras as he was being arrested.

Now, so far, it’s hard to say who is the hijacker and who is the hijackee. After all, Taseer the moderate was a prominent politician, Qadri a mere bodyguard.

A reasonable person might look at this tragic situation and say it is indeed proof of extremists trying to hijack the religion and the country.

Except, it was Taseer who wanted to change the status quo and Qadri who wanted to protect it. Pakistan’s blasphemy laws have been on the books for decades, and while judicial death sentences for blasphemy are rare, the police and security forces have been enforcing it unilaterally for years.

And what of the reaction to the assassination?

Many columnists and commentators denounced the murder, but the public’s reaction was often celebratory. A Facebook fan page for Qadri had to be taken down as it was drawing thousands of followers.

And what of the country’s official guardians of the faith?

A group of more than 500 leading Muslim scholars, representing what the Associated Press describes as a “moderate school of Islam” and the British Guardian calls the “mainstream religious organizations” in Pakistan not only celebrated the murder, but warned that no Muslim should mourn Taseer’s murder or pray for him.

They even went so far as to warn government officials and journalists that the “supporter is as equally guilty as one who committed blasphemy,” and so therefore they should all take “a lesson from the exemplary death” of Salman Taseer.

If that’s what counts for religious moderation in Pakistan, I think it’s a little late to be talking about extremists hijacking the religion. The religion has long since been hijacked, and it’s now moving on to even bigger things.

Pakistan isn’t the only troubled spot. In Egypt, Coptic Christians were recently slaughtered in an Islamist terrorist attack. The Egyptian government, which has a long record of brutalizing and killing its own Christian minority, was sufficiently embarrassed by the competition from non-governmental Islamists that it is now offering protection. How long that will last is anyone’s guess.

But Pakistan is special because it has nuclear weapons and is inextricably bound up in the war in neighboring Afghanistan and the larger war on terror. U.S. relations with the Pakistani military remain strong, but — as we’ve seen with Turkey — good relations with a military don’t make up for losing support from an allied government as it goes Islamist. And it seems unlikely that a government can long stay secular when the people want it to become ever more Islamist.

Sadanand Dhume, a Wall Street Journal columnist (and my colleague at the American Enterprise Institute), writes that even “relatively secular-minded Pakistanis are an endangered species.”

While most of the enlightened chatterers remain mute or incoherent as they struggle for a way to blame Israel for all of this, the question becomes all the more pressing: How do we deal with a movement or a nation that refuses to abide by the expiring cliché, “Islam means peace”?

— Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. © 2010 Tribune Media Services, Inc.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 7, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
Israel is but a pawn to the will of the USA.


I thought it was the other way around??? We were the Zionist pawns???

Oh and Nikky Sarkozy, French PM, sees the clash;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8246278/Nicolas-Sarkozy-says-Christians-in-Middle-East-are-victim-of-religious-cleansing.html

Oh my....he must be a Zionist too.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 11, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
More BS propaganda DaftRat?


Why don't you man up and admit how pleased you would be if the IDF eliminated (with extreme prejudice) the entire Palestinian population. An Eye for an Eye. Six million dead for six million dead.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 12, 2011 - 08:22am PT
iran rounding up christians...libs warn of backlash from the "christian street"


okokok, that last part was a joke

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/11/iran-rounds-christians-crackdown/?test=latestnews

iranian christians wait anxiously for barry to say nothing during talks without preconditions
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 14, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
right on cue.........

Jeff you must be related to Pavlovs subjects of study.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 14, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 14, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
Ding Dong Drool.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 14, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
Dreidels?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 14, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 14, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/germany-s-jewish-community-combats-german-islamophobia-1.337099

Published 01:04 15.01.11Latest update 01:04 15.01.11
Germany’s Jewish community combats German Islamophobia
Though rich in irony, Jewish leaders see their position as a matter of Jewish self-interest in a Germany in which old ghosts remain laid to rest.

By The Forward
Tags: Israel news Jews and Muslims Germany Jewish World

In Germany today, Muslims are often cited as a crucial factor in contemporary German anti-Semitism—and are themselves increasingly a target of ethnic based prejudice and bigotry.

Yet, leaders of Germany’s Jewish community have joined others in combating what many view as a tidal wave of German Islamophobia.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 14, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmmm... Sounds Clash-less.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 15, 2011 - 02:18am PT
philo,

Liberal Jews always make mistakes, like marching off peacefully to ovens.


The evil one



Are you trying to intimate that ALL the Jews who were exterminated were liberals who went willingly?


Your grasp of history is a complete joke.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 15, 2011 - 07:46am PT
Jeff,

You just killed any hope of holding even an AIPAC office.
I'll be contacting Zack again soon.
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 15, 2011 - 07:51am PT
Any cool climbing out there?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 15, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 15, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
"Only the liberal Jews marched peacefully to the gas chambers"



What an incredibly insensitive, irresponsible, childish, and ignorant thing to say.

You are a closet Jew, Jeff.

And an ASS for even thinking it.

You continually prove you have the intellect of a 10 year old.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 16, 2011 - 04:01am PT
Which one Jeff?

Any way IF you had any power you wouldn't be swinging it around like you do here on ST.
You MAY WANT power but you have very little.
At least that affects my life.
However, if you do ever run for political office you would have some influence over my life and I can't and won't allow that.
Plain and simple.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 16, 2011 - 10:54am PT
Is that a light at the end of the tunnel???
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=314020&D=2011-01-16&SO=&HC=3
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 17, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
Looks like it worked better than expected.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8262853/Stuxnet-virus-attack-Russia-warns-of-Iranian-Chernobyl.html
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 17, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
Great.
When one of our nuke plants goes haywire we'll have no one to blame but ourselves and Israel.
OOOOOOPPPPSSSS!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 17, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
Danny Zeidman, founder of Ir Amim, a non-profit Israeli organization dedicated to promoting Israeli-Palestinian coexistence in Jerusalem, said: “Allowing (Jewish) extremists into the heart of the Muslim Quarter carries the danger of turning a resolvable political conflict into a violent religious one.”


Which is the clear (and evil) intent of the Israelis.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 18, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
So, Jeff, what's your take on recent democratic developments in Tunisia? And on the slow crumbling of the Israeli government, as it is co-opted by extremists?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 18, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Great.
When one of our nuke plants goes haywire we'll have no one to blame but ourselves and Israel.
OOOOOOPPPPSSSS!

No need to worry about that. If you can't write in assembly for a dead computer language.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 19, 2011 - 10:36am PT
just finished victor davis hanson's "the soul of battle"...excellent; his thesis doesn't really hold up for patton, but that section is definitely worth reading for a look at how politics extended the war


the discussions of epaminondas and sherman are outstanding
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 20, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
Not unlike how the AIPAC lobby shut down productions of I am Rachel Corie all over America.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 20, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
Not unlike how the AIPAC lobby shut down productions of I am Rachel Corie all over America.

I'm beginning to understand why jews have been persecuted over the millennia.
Jeff makes one heck of a role model!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jan 20, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Fatty: You did not address MH answer “on the slow crumbling of the Israeli government, as it is co-opted by extremists?”

Diplomatic embarrassment

PA draft resolution: Declare settlements illegal

Lebanon presents UN Security Council with Palestinian proposal to declare construction in West Bank, east Jerusalem illegal. Israel absent from discussion due to ongoing Foreign Ministry work dispute

Yitzhak Benhorin source: YNET

Published: 01.20.11, 09:04 / Israel News


WASHINGTON – The Palestinians are making headway at the UN, while Israel's Foreign Service is on strike.

The Palestinians submitted to the Security Council a draft resolution proposing to declare Israeli settlements as illegal. Israel was absent from the discussion, due to strikes in the Foreign Ministry.
The proposal was distributed among the Security Council members, but was not discussed nor voted on.

The United States opposed the submittal of the draft resolution, and the Palestinian members had to make due with only presenting it to the UNSC members during a monthly discussion on "the situation in the Middle East and the Palestinian question."

The Israeli delegation was absent from the meeting following an instruction from the Foreign Ministry workers union. Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations Reuven Meron called the ambassadors of other Security Council members and explained that Israel's absence was not politically motivated, but rather due to an internal work dispute.
The latest crisis in the Foreign Service has left Israel almost helpless in the face of the Palestinian progress in gaining international recognition, culminating with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's declaration during his visit to the Palestinian Authority this week.

Show of power

The draft proposal, which was presented by Lebanon – the rotating Arab member on the Security Council– was signed by 122 out of 192 member states.

The proposal demands that Israel halts construction in settlements that are on Palestinian territory, and defines the construction on all lands occupied in 1967 as illegal and a key obstacle to a comprehensive, just peace agreement.

The Palestinian observer to the United Nations Riyad Mansour admitted that "if it was up to us, we would have liked to see the Security Council act immediately," adding that it was the United States that was blocking the move.

The US has repeatedly made clear that it objects to any unilateral step that might thwart efforts to bring both sides back to the negotiationing table. Although the United States opposes Israel's construction in the settlements, it is also against Palestinian attempts to drag other international players into the conflict.

US' Deputy Ambassador to the United Nations Rosemary DiCarlo stated that negotiations can progress only if the two sides engage in direct talks – and not with the intervention of the Security Council.

During the Security Council discussion, United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs Lynn Pascoe presented a monthly review of the situation in the Middle East and reiterated Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's demand that Israel stop all activity in the West Bank.
Pascoe added that Israel has begun building some 2,000 new housing units in the West Bank since the moratorium expired on September 26 of last year.

And Fatty: Sure you still hate Obama since it looks like he is on your side of your fence.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 20, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
Sad about Rachel, what was she thinking jumping in front of a bulldoser????
Jeff it is too oft repeated lies like this statement that occasionally make me want to kick your ass.
You know full well she did NOT jump in front of that bulldozer. She was blatantly murdered by the dozer driver who bragged about a job well done.
Just once will you acknowledge the truth?

Not even close to sponsoring terrorism and nuclear bombs.

Sponsoring terrorism and building nuclear weapons... You mean like Israel!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 20, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Thanks for the list of UN Resolutions AC.
Fats must be worried. He always sounds most assured when he is most wrong.


Hey Jeff, what is your take on the Gazan Doctor getting a Nobel Peace Prize?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:32am PT
January 21, 2011 12:00 A.M.

Postcards from Hell
In its online magazine, al-Qaeda shows its evil—and its desperation.


He seems to have achieved a kind of religious exultation by decapitating Daniel Pearl. That’s what emerges from a new report from Georgetown University and the Center for Public Integrity. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the 9/11 “mastermind” whom the Obama administration abortively planned to try (with the full protections of our Constitution) in a civilian court in Manhattan, was the man who did it.

By studying the videotape of Pearl’s unbearably cruel and barbarous murder (in a more innocent time — 2002 — Americans became nauseated just hearing about it), U.S. investigators were able to compare the vein structure of the hand that appears in the video with KSM’s. Though Mohammad had acknowledged being the killer, some had doubts. This report should quiet them.

The exhaustive examination, like a postcard from hell, provides new details that reveal the pornographic pleasure the murderers took in their brutality. The videographer apparently failed to capture the initial throat slashing. KSM accordingly reenacted it, this time decapitating the 38-year-old Pearl. Though the disorganized kidnappers had considered releasing Pearl at the start of his confinement in Pakistan, they changed their minds when they learned that he was Jewish. “My name is Daniel Pearl. I am a Jewish American from Encino, California, U.S.A.,” they forced him to say on tape before cutting his throat. Al-Qaeda later released the video titled “The Slaughter of the Spy-Journalist, the Jew Daniel Pearl.”

They weren’t finished with him, though. After Pearl’s head had been sawed off his neck, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his accomplices cut the rest of the body into twelve pieces. They then washed the bloody floor and knelt down in the same spot to pray — perhaps moved to religious ecstasy by the smell of American blood.

The video was intended as a recruiting tool — but its appeal has likely waned with time. Lately, perhaps reflecting its diminished position after nearly ten years of American counterattacks, al-Qaeda has been resorting to more conventional propaganda. The fourth edition of Inspire, the English online magazine of AQAP (al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula) was released on January 15, and while the brutality is undiminished, al-Qaeda’s encouragement to its followers seems strained.

For one thing, the magazine devotes a great deal of space to emphasizing the compulsory nature of jihad — it is the duty of every Muslim to wage jihad, they exhort — which may indicate that they are having trouble finding willing suicide bombers. Hoping to shame Muslims into becoming recruits, they heap praise on Roshonara Choudhry, a British Muslim woman who, after listening to tapes by Anwar al-Awlaki, calmly stabbed MP Stephen Timms with a kitchen knife on May 14, 2010. “I was trying to kill him,” she told investigators, because of his vote in favor in the Iraq War. Witnesses said she smiled as she plunged the knife into his stomach. (He survived.)

Inspire was moved. “A woman has shown to the ummah’s men the path of jihad! A woman my brothers! Shame on all the men for sitting on their hands while one of our women has taken up the individual jihad! She felt the need to do it simply because our men gave all too many excuses to refrain from it.”

Inspire hopes to incite its readers with photos of the Chicago skyline, and of the Capitol in Washington, D.C., with a twinkling Christmas tree in the foreground. Contributors like Anwar al-Awlaki and Sheikh Adil al-Abbab stress that in addition to violence, jihad also includes plundering the wealth of infidels through force or fraud. That they need cash is obvious. Awlaki himself says “jihad around the world is in dire need of financial support.” He soothes those with residual qualms: “Some Muslims today might feel uncomfortable consuming money that was seized by force from the disbelievers and would feel that income they receive as a salary or from business is a better form of income,” Awlaki writes. “That is not true. The best and purest form of income is booty.” Quite a daily devotional.

Like the Communists, who justified any crime in the name of revolution, Islamists justify any outrage if the goal is fulfilling their twisted vision of Allah’s will. Aware that they’ve been thwarted by American military power, al-Qaeda now greedily imagines smaller-scale attacks on American civilians. “Pull off Mumbai near Whitehouse [sic] till martyrdom,” they plead.

Perhaps, nearly a decade after 9/11 and the murder of Daniel Pearl, we’ve forgotten just how vicious our enemies are. Perhaps, after all of the sacrifice and expense of the past decade, we’re inclined to relax our vigilance.

Let’s not.

— Mona Charen is a nationally syndicated columnist. © 2011 Creators Syndicate.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:36am PT
What a crock!
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jan 21, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
Club AIPAC


http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/29_319.asp
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 21, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
Europeans often fantasize about America's so-called Jewish lobby.
Hardly a fantasy.

Edit: Shouldn't it be "IAPAC", or just "IPAC"?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jan 21, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
Couple of other clubs you can join and see, talk to, and do for one fourth the price. Price for membership with AIPAC more concerned about money than dialects. The other clubs things get done.

What gets me Fatty is why have you not bought a ticket, joined to help protect your precious country that is in harm’s way? Help with or looking for underground passages under the wall? Is it because you feel that the US is the only country that you makes you safe.

You still collecting $$$ from the Saudi's.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jan 21, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
Your Brothers Fatty

Cable: IDF officials corrupt

US businessmen accuse officials at Karni crossing of taking bribes to allow goods into Gaza

Yuval Man

Published: 01.06.11, 13:04 / Israel News

A cable leaked by WikiLeaks claims Israeli officials at the Karni crossing into Gaza took bribes from US companies trying to transfer goods into the Strip.

The 2006 cable, which says "US businesses allege that corruption by Israeli officials at Karni crossing is impeding their access to the Gaza market", was leaked exclusively by Norway's Aftenposten.

The cable was compiled from sources in both the US embassy in Tel Aviv and the Jerusalem consulate general. It says that American goods worth $1.9 million waited at the Karni crossing for over three months before being permitted into Gaza.

The goods had been produced by companies such as Coca-Cola, Caterpillar, Phillip Morris, Hewlett Packard, and Motorola.

The businessmen cited in the cable said they were forced to pay commission 75 times larger than normally paid at the crossing. One businessman accused both the crossing's management and middlemen companies handling logistics of corruption.

"These businessmen have criticized the fact that calls to the phone reservation system for receiving a date and time to cross are never answered and that their discussions with (government) officials have resulted in only temporary (one or two day) improvements," the cable says.

Coca-Cola's distributor identified one "high-level official at the terminal" who headed the bribery ring. "Directly under him… are an Arab-Israeli, another Israeli civilian, and two IDF officers," the cable says.

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:04am PT
Torture should be investigated and prosecuted.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 27, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
Iranian suicide bomber book discovered near the Mexican border;
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=314802&D=2011-01-27&SO=&HC=1

Great...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 4, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
i don't worry about the israelis because they're ready and willing to defend themselves; europe, on the other hand...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 7, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354246/One-legged-Afghan-Red-Cross-worker-hanged-converting-Christianity.html
ahad aham

Trad climber
Feb 7, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
we have heard all the hasbara on mb... now lets take a peek at


http://972mag.com/nobody-mentions-the-jewish-brotherhood/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 7, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Great link. Another take on it Ahad:http://floppingaces.net/2011/02/07/why-i-stand-with-the-jew/
ahad aham

Trad climber
Feb 7, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
so who's targeting this great young Jewish American citizen right here in good old LA;



http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-voice-for-peace-chief-threatened-over-pro-palestinian-campaign-1.341779

ahad aham

Trad climber
Feb 7, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
fats with luck you will get huckabee
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 7, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
Palin/Fattrad 2012


PLEASE
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 10, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
nope, no clash here...we're all the same:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8315652/Twelve-year-old-suicide-bomber-kills-31-in-Pakistan.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 13, 2011 - 11:21am PT
http://arabnews.com/lifestyle/offbeat/article258246.ece

Question is, how many were his cousins?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Feb 13, 2011 - 11:37am PT
Question is, how many were his cousins?

Questioning from experience eh? Bet you kids have a few extra chromosomes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 13, 2011 - 11:47am PT
Maybe you should educate yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swadss8D8zw
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 18, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
an algerian's view of the recent uprisings:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/democracy-best-solvent-interview-algerian-novelist-boualem-sansal_550360.html


take away line: the arabs can't be left to themselves or the extremists will fill the vacuum left by the fleeing dictators
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 21, 2011 - 11:50am PT
Wonder what BHO and Billary will have to say about this?


http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=196821643669884&id=132033426839712

Seems like the Mullahs are resorting to some sort of nerve agent.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 21, 2011 - 11:54am PT


http://www.ennaharonline.com/en/international/5830.html

Quite the "democratic" revolution in Tunisia.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Feb 22, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
An interesting connection between the dictators of Libya and Venezuela.
How does a South American dictator get a soccer stadium named after him in
Libya?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Feb 23, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
Fatty

Really sorry to pick on you.

Arnaud de Borchgrave is a propagandist/disinformation specialist. He once was a writer for the Washington Times run by Sun Myung Moon.

During a sermon, Rev. Moon asked any Jews present to raise their hands. When they did, he told them to repent for having killed Jesus and went on to explain that it was as an indemnity for this that 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust.

Funny you would agree with the analysis from Borchgrave or lack of Intel. Could be that you are not old enough to know the players.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Feb 24, 2011 - 01:14am PT
Yeah, I told him exactly that about 700 posts ago. I'm, pretty sure forty-one in Roman numerals is XLI.

I also suggested, since these Clash of Civilizations threads did stack up from "one" to "forty-one," that he start forty-two. But I think he wants to get into the thousands of posts or something like that.

Still one of my favorite threads on Supertopo. It makes for a quick and easy way to read many diverse points of view on these subjects.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 24, 2011 - 08:02am PT
The condition of Palestinian statelessness is a symptom of both Iran's hegemonic ambitions and Arab rejection.

Wow, it takes some real linguistic, journalistic, and revisionist chutzpah to even attempt to shift the blame for Palestinian statelessness from Israel to Iran and Arab states. And in this case literally from a babe's mouth. He only approaches a valid point if your chosen solution is that some Arab country carve them out a state in lieu of the one they had in Palestine.

But I suppose the logic is that it worked for one wandering tribe lost in diaspora, why not this one? Not quite sure how attempting to end a Jewish diaspora by creating a Palestinian one balances the books, but I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. And hell, his logic is impeccable - if I throw you out of your house and the neighbors who put you up don't let you permanently move into their house then they are the bad guys and not me. Got it - next (and please, don't quote folks who are still in diapers).
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 24, 2011 - 11:59am PT
February 24, 2011 12:00 A.M.

Nations United Against Israel

The U.N. responds to multiple crises in Arab and Muslim countries just as you’d expect.


Egypt, Bahrain, and Yemen are in turmoil. In Libya, Col. Moammar Gaddafi is using mercenaries to slaughter peaceful protestors. Hezbollah is staging a slow-motion coup in Lebanon. Iran’s rulers are executing dissidents daily, developing nuclear weapons, and sending warships through Suez. The response of the United Nations to these many threats to global peace and security? Condemn Israel! Is there anything else the U.N. does as often or as well?

Here’s how it went down this time: At the urging of Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, temporary Security Council member Lebanon — a nation, as noted, increasingly ruled by Hezbollah, the Iranian-funded terrorist group that in 1983 murdered 241 American servicemen in Beirut — sponsored a resolution condemning Israel for constructing “illegal settlements.”

In other words, the issue that the U.N. considers most critical in the world at this hinge moment in history is that Israelis have been building homes on land the Palestinians want — and might be able to have if they were prepared to negotiate a peace treaty with Israelis.

On Thursday, 110 members of Congress sent a letter to the Obama administration asking that it veto this latest attempt to delegitimize Israel, a democratic ally that has taken serious steps “to bring peace to the region.” Those steps included a ten-month moratorium on new housing in the West Bank, which Israelis hoped would bring Palestinians back to the negotiating table. But why should Palestinians negotiate if they can get the U.N. to force Israel to make concessions in exchange for nothing?

In the end and to its credit, the Obama administration did veto the resolution. But Ambassador Susan Rice did not even attempt to suggest how hypocritical, counterproductive, and just plain deranged it is for the U.N. to ignore the crimes being committed by Islamist terrorists and Arab despots while demanding that Israelis surrender territory — taken in a defensive war — to those who remain committed to their extermination.

Instead, Rice meekly conceded that the U.S. agrees “about the folly and illegitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity,” adding that the resolution was nevertheless “unwise.”

A more honest and courageous U.S. ambassador to the U.N. — John Bolton, Jeane Kirkpatrick, and Daniel Patrick Moynihan spring to mind — would have stated clearly that this resolution is a shameful attempt to deflect attention from real crises while enhancing Abbas’s position within the Arab and Muslim worlds. He can take America’s money and spit in America’s eye? What a guy!

Perhaps Ambassador Rice would benefit from spending more time on these issues and less, as my FDD colleague Claudia Rosett has reported, lecturing Americans on “Why America Needs the United Nations.” Since when did the job description of an American ambassador to the U.N. including marketing the U.N. to the taxpayers who subsidize the U.N.?

But I digress. The more important point is this: The U.N.’s leadership and most of its members are not remotely interested in securing peace anywhere. And there is no Palestinian leader who will or even can make peace with Israel so long as the Muslim Brotherhood, the Arab League, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, and similar groups are calling the shots — in many instances literally.

Hamas, Hezbollah, and the theocratic rulers of Iran have been candid: Creation of a Palestinian state is, at best, a secondary goal. Their primary objective is the defeat and destruction of the world’s only Jewish state. No serious person can still believe the core issue is housing in the West Bank, also known as Judea and Samaria, territories that have never been part of a Palestinian state — because there has never been a Palestinian state — territories occupied by Jordan from 1949 until 1967, when Jordan, Egypt, and other Arab nations launched a conventional war intended to wipe Israel off the map.

Islamists cannot accept the existence of a nation led by infidels in a part of the world targeted for religious cleansing, the imposition of sharia, and the establishment of a modern caliphate — one that is to be oil-rich, nuclear-armed, and dedicated to diminishing American power globally and permanently.

Were Arab and Muslim nations willing to tolerate Israel’s existence — not love Israelis, just tolerate them — negotiating borders would be a piece of cake. In the absence of such tolerance, it would be a mistake for Israel to surrender another square inch of soil — as its earlier withdrawals from southern Lebanon (where Hezbollah has installed thousand of missiles under the noses of U.N. “peacekeepers”) and Gaza (from which thousands of missiles have been launched at Israeli villages) have demonstrated to all but the delusional (a substantial percentage of the international foreign-policy community).

Israel also turned over the Sinai to Egypt in return for a peace treaty signed by Egyptian president Anwar Sadat. His assassination at the hands of a Muslim Brotherhood splinter group soon followed. Three decades later, that peace treaty may be scrapped by whichever government comes to power in Egypt in the days ahead. That does not imply that another war with Egypt is imminent or even inevitable. It does imply that Israel cannot depend for its survival on pieces of paper signed by dictators. How often do free peoples need to be taught that lesson?

— Clifford D. May, a former New York Times foreign correspondent, is president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a policy institute focusing on terrorism and Islamism.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Feb 24, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Clifford D. May is a "Conservative" hack.

Come on Booky, you can do better than that. Can't ya?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 24, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/2011224141158174266.html

The PA should dissolve itself in a similar manner by announcing that the responsibilities delegated to it by Israel are being handed back to the occupying power, which must fulfill its duties under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949.

This would not be a surrender. Rather, it would be a recognition of reality and an act of resistance on the part of Palestinians who would collectively refuse to continue to assist the occupier in occupying them. By removing the fig leaf of "self-governance" masking and protecting from scrutiny Israel's colonial and military tyranny, the end of the PA would expose Israeli apartheid for all the world to see.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Feb 24, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
Why do so many terrorists keep personal a journal, kinda girly if you ask me.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 24, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
Dear Diary...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 28, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
So, Fatty, moving to Palisrael any time soon? The pressure is now on the Israelis to come to a reasonable settlement with the Palestinians (and vice versa), and make the best of an opportunity they've been squandering for years, before it slips away.

Or do you need to be spanked first?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 28, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
Sorry - inadvertent pun. For once.

Sheesh, you have to spoon feed FatSter everything. In this case, that Israel has been very dependent on reasonably stable regimes in neighbouring countries, however ugly. In particular, on its cold allies Egypt and Jordan, and its frigid allies Saudi Arabia and Syria. Whatever else, there will be some instability in Egypt for a while, likely followed by a limited democracy with military acquiescence. Which means the free ride for Israel is over, and it had better do a deal while it can.

The other piece, of course, is that Israel will have to abandon much of the occupied territories, and make other concessions, to get a settlement. That, or continue with the colonial occupation. A significant proportion of those already living in 1948-boundary Israel are Arab/Palestinian. If the occupied territories are included, more than half of those living west of the Jordan. Israel can't absorb them, and remain a Jewish-dominated democracy. Time for the Israelis to cut and run. It can't afford or chance the alternatives.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 1, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
Lostinshanghai said:
During a sermon, Rev. Moon asked any Jews present to raise their hands. When they did, he told them to repent for having killed Jesus and went on to explain that it was as an indemnity for this that 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust.

Holy sh#t, how old were these Jews and why would God let them live so long after they killed Jesus? And there they are in Korea most likely!!!! I find this recent revelation very startling and disturbing Lost in Shanghai! Proving that the world truly is a strange place.

I will confess that not long ago, a Chinese climber was at my house. We're hanging on the back deck and he asked my son what my son's Asian heritage was. "Japanese", son said. "Your people killed my people" he snorted. My boy apologized of course, but I don't think he remembered anything of the sort. Lots of strange stuff out there these days.

Obligatory climbing pic of #1 son with the grandparents of what seems to have been a a few weeks ago, but is most likely longer ago that that despite what it seems. Still have that couch, although Kiichi there on the right must have died @ 5-8 years ago. Kiichi was in I company, 442nd, during WW2. All he saw was Germans and no Chinese. They did get to liberate one of the Jewish Concentration camps. They were quickly pulled out so that a bunch of white soldier guys from another unit could get in there and get their pictures taken "liberating" it for the magazines back home. It didn't seem that long ago for him either. Kiichi had an amazing climbing story of the 442nd soldiers in the Dolomites. Made everyone I know and even folks like Bachar and Reardon seem like a bunch of weak-assed pussies doing meaningless stuff so I won't repeat it here. Needless to say, all those guys, and most of them probably weight @ 110 lbs soaking wet, were bad-asses.

FA of the route Jim Opdycke named "Child Abuse" due to the lads presence here, and the obligatory Blackberry Bushes:-).
Jeff Thomas photo

Sorry to sh#t on a political thread with some climbing photos. The little f*#ker was out ice climbing 3 days ago, wish I'd been there.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 2, 2011 - 11:34am PT
why afghanistan matters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1CEabu7dmQ

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 6, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
Stuff like this brings out my inner, "f*#k 'em, just drop bombs"

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=317525&D=2011-03-06&SO=&HC=1

Rat f*#ks...there is no humanity.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 6, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
I'm kinda torn, Fatty.

I know these f*#kers mean us harm, yet I would like to just peel away and let them cut their own throats.

Dropping bombs on them tactically does work, but these people are relentless. They send their kids here to go to 'school', and we LET THEM IN, and then they plot against us.

I'm tired of this. And yeah, I'll get called a racist or bigot again, but y'all will be really disappointed when one of these guys succeeds in his Jihad.

When it touches you or your friends, you may think twice. They are trying, they are motivated, and they WILL succeed.


How do we counter that? Ask yourself.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 6, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
Blewy you (& DaftRat) are so full of crap your breath smells of farts.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 6, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
Blewy you (& DaftRat) are so full of crap your breath smells of farts.

That's a nice retort. Do you have any comment on the slayings that I linked?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 7, 2011 - 01:21pm PT

("Survival" as justification for a means was also used by every fascist organization from the KKK to the Israeli military.)
^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^




couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 7, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
When a large portion of your population has been wiped out in a genocide that could have been reduced by others, you tend not to take chances again.

Yup.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 7, 2011 - 07:31pm PT

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/4/multicultural-rot-in-the-melting-pot/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 7, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
I once screwed a Persian chick while listening to Wango Tango. My COV story.

That rocks!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 10, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
...or it's with the Chinese over Taiwan, in which case it would be more appropriately called a cRash. In fact, as the elderly Chinese woman said to her Doctor (Dr F?) no have Cataract....have Rincoln Continental.

Crash! Hang on here, getting to the point.....which is, can you say economic Crash, as in the Pentagon funded study suggested that we have been attacked in 3 part harmony economically, much like 9/11 was a physical attack.

Published in 2009, and part 3 is happening right now. Which is why the Chinese are a net seller of US debt and the Fed has been covering that, and has, within a short time, become the largest owner of US debt. Surpassing both the Japanese and the Chinese. Did no one else read this?


And you are worried about the Iranians Jeff....sh#t.....you think we will be able to afford to continue pumping money into Israel after the Chinese have finished screwing us in the ass sans lube economically?

Dude, please. It's really a cRash of Civarazatrions...are you really not paying attention here? Do some research first.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
Dude, please. It's really a cRash of Civarazatrions...are you really not paying attention here? Do some research first.


Good point. Ze Chiners....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 10, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
The cRash meets the clash>

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=37633&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&cHash=b68118e4442941a4bd2c723624b3ea10
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 10, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
Bump for the spambot cretin
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 10, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
Now back on topic


The cRash meets the clash>

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=37633&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&cHash=b68118e4442941a4bd2c723624b3ea10
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:34am PT
So Mr. Crowley...Are you insinuating that republicans are morally and ethically corrupt or is it the left-wing media that generates the propaganda associating republicans with corruption and fraud....Come on answer, bitch!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 11, 2011 - 09:51am PT
opps - someone cRashed the thread...
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
“disprove my Clash thesis”

Now you are taking credit for Huntington’s thesis on the subject. Really you should stop what you are doing Fatty and think about becoming a standup comic.

Don't count on me coming to see you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do —— The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, p. 51.
(Huntington)

See Victor Davis Hanson, "Carnage and Culture" for further exposition.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Sorry, Fatty, the world doesn't care about Jewish children getting knifed while their parents watch. Neither does the U.N.

Good news is, the village isn't taking it lightly....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Mossad false flag......


Yeah, that makes sense...Everything is false flag when it doesn't jive with yer stupid agenda.

Lame!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
How does the murder of a Jewish settler family benefit the Palestinian cause?

Uh, they murdered a Jewish family who was on 'their land'. Are you really stupid, or do you just pretend to be?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
He can not answer the question as it does not fit the paradigm of the "Narrative" he has bought, hook line and sinker.







FALSE FLAG.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
we will build wherever families are killed.

No Jeff Elfont, "you" will not build any where.

The Israelis will, however, at their own peril.

You live in the USA and barely even know what the term "Haredim" means.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
Every time I start to get tingle of sympathy for the paleos they go and pull something like this.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 15, 2011 - 01:23am PT
Paleos? Is that supposed to be like Heebs?



Victim-hood as art form.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 15, 2011 - 01:40am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-responsible-government-would-calm-not-escalate-1.349046
ed 01:31 14.03.11Latest update 01:31 14.03.11

A responsible government would calm, not escalate
A single cell of murderers has come and changed the trend of Netanyahu and Barak's actions to a toughening of positions and the decision to build 500 new housing units in the settlements.

Haaretz Editorial

The despicable murder of five members of the Fogel family on Saturday is a crime against every human being. But the atrocity in Itamar is not only a criminal act. It was committed in a diplomatic and security context, and we have to examine its background and consequences. Not, heaven forbid, to justify what cannot be justified or grant absolution. Instead, we have to study the complex situation that makes Israel responsible for preventing an escalation that could result in many new victims.

A diplomatic stagnation marks relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Both sides have contributed to this, as has the ineffectiveness of the U.S. administration under President Barack Obama. Two years after his administration and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government took over, there has been no progress on the formula that ostensibly everyone agrees on: the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. The diplomatic vacuum is enabling extremist elements on both sides - terror organizations (and individuals acting alone ) on the one side and settlers ravenous for more territory and a price tag on the other - to take the initiative and dictate events instead of the leaders.


In recent weeks, under pressure from visitors from Washington, Berlin and other foreign capitals, Netanyahu seems to be signaling he intends to unveil a more moderate policy in about two months. Moreover, he and his partner, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, have explained that the moderation will not be a favor to the Palestinians, but rather what Israel needs. They have also promised to evacuate settlements built on privately owned land stolen from Palestinians. For a moment it appeared that the government, to develop a moderate image, was heading for a clash with the settlers.

Now, a single cell of murderers has come and changed the trend of Netanyahu and Barak's actions to a toughening of positions and the decision to build 500 new housing units in the settlements. This is a terrible decision that will neither placate the settlers nor prevent a revenge attack by the lawless among them. In addition, it is making things difficult for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, angering Obama and feeding the unrest in the territories in advance of tomorrow, a day of planned demonstrations.

A responsible government would act now to calm and not to escalate, to pursue a diplomatic solution and not a belligerent confrontation. But in Jerusalem we don't have a government like that.


FALSE FLAG
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 15, 2011 - 11:03am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-congress-condemns-poland-s-decision-to-halt-property-restitution-1.349366

Published 15:56 15.03.11Latest update 15:56 15.03.11
Jewish Congress condemns Poland's decision to halt property restitution
Polish government suspends work on a bill of compensation payments for nationalized property, explaining they cannot finance the proceedings in the current economic climate.

By Haaretz Service
The head of the World Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Restitution Organization expressed Monday "shock and dismay" at the announcement that Poland decided to suspend work on legislation to provide compensation for property owners whose assets were confiscated during the Communist period, among them many Jewish Holocaust victims.

Ronald S. Lauder said in a statement "We are greatly disturbed by this turn of events as Polish officials have been publicly stating for many years - indeed too many years -that the property restitution and compensation issue would be addressed and legislation introduced in Parliament."


World Jewish Congress Ronald Lauder.

Photo by: AP

"By its announcement this week, Poland is telling many elderly pre-war landowners, including Holocaust survivors, that they have no foreseeable hope of even a small measure of justice for the assets that were seized from them," the WJC president added.

"Regrettably, the Polish government has said that for financial reasons they cannot move forward on legislation to compensate for confiscated property. For us, this is an issue of justice and not money," Lauder said.

"Most central and eastern European countries have adopted some type of law to provide for the restitution of or compensation for confiscated property. Poland stands out for its failure to do so," stated Lauder.

Last week, the Polish government suspended work on a bill of compensation payments for nationalized property, explaining that they could not finance the proceedings in the current economic climate.

WJC Secretary-General Michael Schneider called the Polish government's decision "disappointing and unfair" adding that "We must help old people, particularly Holocaust survivors, who in their twilight years need the means to cope with the problems of old age."

Big Fing WAAAH
The Israeli's adamantly refuse to grant the justice of restitution to the Palestinians disinfranchized by the Naqbah. But they expect the world to weep for them and give them everything they demand. Hypocrites.

Degaine

climber
Mar 15, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
philo,

Could you please explain to me how Jewish people in Poland asking for land taken from them during the Holocaust can be considered hypocrites because the secular Israeli government has not returned land to Palestinian refugees (or their descendants)?

dirtbag

climber
Mar 15, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
There is no clash.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 15, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Except between Fattrad and reality.
dirtbag

climber
Mar 15, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
Yes, there's that one.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
and aren't we still spelling it cRash these days?
Degaine

climber
Mar 16, 2011 - 04:47am PT
fattrad,

Could you please explain how you've come to the conclusion that Bahrain is the flash point given that protests in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Algeria came first?
dirtbag

climber
Mar 16, 2011 - 04:55am PT
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Mar 16, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
After all, nuclear stuff is bad, see the Japan thread.

You are right, Jeff Elfont.

Dismantle Dimona.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 16, 2011 - 07:54pm PT

Photo by https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/424/images/RumsfeldBookmark.pdf

I always wondered who was behind the HINI “swine flu” scare and all that Tamiflu ordered by our government and every country in the world.

But what gets me is that he was awarded the "Defender of the Constitution Award" at the 2011 Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington, D.C., on February 10, 2011.

Don’t you just love america.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Mar 17, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
You too busy getting ready to caddy? Someone's gotta carry his balls, right?

Sounds like you are not too busy Craigman.

Why dont't you cary his balls in your mouth?
Then at least you'd have some!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2011 - 12:25am PT
The third Fitna

Interesting,

http://cf.telegram.com/town_portal_includes/display_full_blog_tt.cfm?TOWN=Rutland
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 19, 2011 - 12:43am PT
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 20, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Filling in for Fattrad as he missed this story in the exchange of missiles today:

"Hamas used force to break up a small rally today, witnesses said. An Associated Press Television News cameraman was nearby when he was cornered by Hamas police and beaten with sticks. He was briefly detained and released unharmed. Other cameramen also were beaten and some had their equipment confiscated by Hamas. Hamas also raided the offices of the Reuters news agency in Gaza. A producer was arrested by Hamas and witnesses later saw him leave hospital with a bandage wrapped around his hand. Reuters Bureau Chief Crispian Balmer said: 'A group of armed men entered our office in Gaza and threatened our employees and confiscated a video camera after we were spotted filming a demonstration from the building. They smashed a TV in the office, they clubbed one of our guys on the arm with a metal club and they threatened to throw another one of our employees out of the window.'"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367883/Israel-hits-Palestinians-unleash-heaviest-rocket-attack-2-years.html#ixzz1HCDKxv00
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2011 - 10:37am PT
ok, if bush was responsible for abhu ghraib, then barry must be responsible for those afghan pics


israel gets KISSed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ap_interview_kiss_bassist_gene_simmons_says_boycotters_of_israel_are_fools/2011/03/22/ABmHa6DB_story.html?wprss=rss_world
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 25, 2011 - 10:23am PT
March 25, 2011 12:00 A.M.

The Professor’s War
America is led by a man determined that it should not lead.


President Obama is proud of how he put together the Libyan operation. A model of international cooperation. All the necessary paperwork. Arab League backing. A Security Council resolution. (Everything but a resolution from the Congress of the United States, a minor inconvenience for a citizen of the world.) It’s war as designed by an Ivy League professor.

True, it took three weeks to put this together, during which time Moammar Qaddafi went from besieged, delusional (remember those youthful protesters on “hallucinogenic pills”) thug losing support by the hour — to resurgent tyrant who marshaled his forces, marched them to the gates of Benghazi, and had the U.S. director of national intelligence predicting that “the regime will prevail.”

But what is military initiative and opportunity compared with paper?

Well, let’s see how that paper multilateralism is doing. The Arab League is already reversing itself, criticizing the use of force it just authorized. Amr Moussa, secretary general of the Arab League, is shocked — shocked! — to find that people are being killed by allied airstrikes. This reaction was dubbed mystifying by one commentator, apparently born yesterday and thus unaware that the Arab League has forever been a collection of cynical, warring, unreliable dictatorships of ever-shifting loyalties. A British soccer mob has more unity and moral purpose. Yet Obama deemed it a great diplomatic success that the League deigned to permit others to fight and die to save fellow Arabs for whom 19 of 21 Arab states have yet to lift a finger.

And what about that brilliant U.N. resolution?

● Russia’s Vladimir Putin is already calling the Libya operation a medieval crusade.

● China is calling for a cease-fire to be put in place — which would completely undermine the allied effort by leaving Qaddafi in power, his people at his mercy, and the country partitioned and condemned to ongoing civil war.

● Brazil joined China in that call for a cease-fire. This just hours after Obama ended his fawning two-day Brazil visit. Another triumph of presidential personal diplomacy.

And how about NATO? Let’s see. As of this writing, Britain wanted the operation to be led by NATO. France adamantly disagreed, citing Arab sensibilities. Germany wanted no part of anything, going so far as to pull four of its ships from NATO command in the Mediterranean. France and Germany walked out of a NATO meeting on Monday, while Norway had planes in Crete ready to go but refused to let them fly until it had some idea who the hell is running the operation. And Turkey, whose prime minister four months ago proudly accepted the Qaddafi International Prize for Human Rights, has been particularly resistant to the Libya operation from the beginning.

And as for the United States, who knows what American policy is. Administration officials insist we are not trying to bring down Qaddafi, even as the president insists that he must go. Although on Tuesday Obama did add “unless he changes his approach.” Approach, mind you.

In any case, for Obama, military objectives take a back seat to diplomatic appearances. The president is obsessed with pretending that we are not running the operation — a dismaying expression of Obama’s view that his country is so tainted by its various sins that it lacks the moral legitimacy to . . . what? Save Third World people from massacre?

Obama seems equally obsessed with handing off the lead role. Hand off to whom? NATO? Quarreling amid Turkish resistance (see above), NATO still can’t agree on taking over command of the airstrike campaign, which is what has kept the Libyan rebels alive.

This confusion is purely the result of Obama’s decision to get America into the war and then immediately relinquish American command. Never modest about himself, Obama is supremely modest about his country. America should be merely “one of the partners among many,” he said Monday. No primus inter pares for him. Even the Clinton administration spoke of America as the indispensable nation. And it remains so. Yet at a time when the world is hungry for America to lead — no one has anything near our capabilities, experience, and resources — America is led by a man determined that it should not.

A man who dithers over parchment. Who starts a war from which he wants out right away. Good God. If you go to take Vienna, take Vienna. If you’re not prepared to do so, better then to stay home and do nothing.

— Charles Krauthammer is a nationally syndicated columnist. © 2011 the Washington Post Writers Group.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 28, 2011 - 12:34am PT
Wow, She told him!

Really doesn't get good till about half way thru.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMnAmRa4NYw&feature=player_embedded#t=448s

You might have to hit the play button twice.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 28, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
Some Iranian Apocalyptic TV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwiadYT-N9k&feature=player_embedded
fresh pow

Boulder climber
phoenix
Mar 29, 2011 - 01:36am PT
Still waiting for bombs to drop on Iran. Oh wait, now its Libya. Next? A neighborhood near you. US foriegn policy under current administration is a joke. Domestic policy too. Haha. Not really. Unfortuantly. Sorry. I'm still hurting too. Whole admins a joke. So unbelievably mad I'll stop right here.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 1, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-extreme-right-turned-israel-into-an-anachronism-1.353451

The extreme right turned Israel into an anachronism
Unlike Europe, where the right has significantly grown but is still not in power, in this country the racists, the extreme and clerical right is the government, with only a vacuum opposing it.

By Zeev Sternhell

Slowly but surely Israel is acquiring the status of an anachronistic entity. The legislation that passed in the Knesset that dark night last week, which makes ethnic inequality a legal norm, has no parallel in democratic countries because it contradicts the very essence of democracy. In terms of the principle on which it is based, institutionalized discrimination against the non-Jewish population takes us back to the early days, when Israel’s Arab citizens were under a military government.



Read this if the truth matters to you.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 1, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
Crickets........
Mimi

climber
Apr 2, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
Very worthwhile article. Professor Bernard Lewis' historical knowledge is amazing.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576234601480205330.html?mod=WSJ_article_MoreIn_Opinion
dirtbag

climber
Apr 5, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
There is no C of C.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
The Paleos murder someone on their side once again.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jFrWGB9wisFa6dBuQfyA4ePnSqig?docId=CNG.3d99b443b15130c2e8940c31d981a03e.8d1
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 6, 2011 - 11:48am PT
I guess it's cool to burn Korans as long as they are in girls schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/world/asia/06afghanistan.html?_r=1&ref=world
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
Hey Achmed, I am so happeee!!!!


I hit a biiiieeg yellow school bus with the rocket our Iranian bros gave us!!!

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=376623
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
Indonesian update from the religion of peas.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375168/Sharia-Law-A-woman-whipped-having-affair.html
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Apr 11, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
Not much, Jeff. For one reason - Israel.

Syria, Lebanon Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia - all going "democratic would spell the end of Israel.
Just imagine all of those countries playing nice with the rest of the world, being good world citizens and against violence/terrorism but still have a population diametrically opposed to Israel, Zionism and it's nuclear program ( which is the case due to Israel completely poisoning it's world image - ranking #4 behind Iran, N. Korea and Pakistan ).
This would put Israel in a real bind no only in the court of public opinion but in the political realm as well.
She could not hide behind the "we are surrounded by terrorist states" any more to justify it's cache of Nuclear weapons, the large amounts of foreign aid from the U.S. and it's thumbing-of-nose toward countless U.N. resolutions ( funny how the leaders of Israel are always criticizing the U.N. unless one of it's rulings helps "the struggle" ).

Without an/many enemies and a "struggle", Israel as it exists now is just not possible.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 11, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
Syria, Lebanon Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia - all going "democratic would spell the end of Israel.
Just imagine all of those countries playing nice with the rest of the world, being good world citizens and against violence/terrorism but still have a population diametrically opposed to Israel

We're all holding our breaths until this happens.

uhhh, sure [/sarcasim]

Please tell us when you expect all of these countries to go democratic, ie, be like Israel currently is.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Apr 12, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
You're not very bright are you! Here is your moderate Arab leader:

Jeff,

Your post proves my point.
Israel has so poisoned it's reputation that moderates and no one of right mind supports Israeli policies.

And, Jeff, you are about as bright as a black-body-radiator at 0°K
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 15, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
So now you're into just posting stupid pics and copy/paste articles?

Got brain?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 15, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
Evolution is a scientific theory.

"Creationism" is mere belief, unsupported by evidence.

Two very different things.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 23, 2011 - 10:39am PT

http://www.arabist.net/blog/2011/4/23/lions-foxes-or-donkeys-of-the-desert.html



http://www.zerohedge.com/article/play-irans-nukes-endgame-ongoing-mena-violence



http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/233298/1700-rebel-sympathisers-turn-selves-in


http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/SEAsia/Story/STIStory_659812.html
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Apr 28, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
"This says it all:"

Yup, another Israeli groveling for support......and upholding lame stereotypes.
Israelis are their own worst enemy, Jeff.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 29, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/04/syria-protests-video.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 6, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Hezbollah establishing bases of operations in Mexico;
http://www.10news.com/news/27780427/detail.html

As close as Tijuana and Durango...
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
May 6, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/6175887
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 7, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
Palestinian youth: New movement, new borders
Palestinian unity agreement only first step in long-term movement, according to Palestinian youth.
Noura Erakat Last Modified: 04 May 2011 08:4
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/05/201153101231834961.html


In the words of Entabwe: "I refuse to become a piece of Israeli society with a different path…I am part of the Palestinian solution and my fate is part of a collective fate. We need a representative government to represent all of us."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 7, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Published 18:52 07.05.11Latest update 18:52 07.05.11
Former Mossad chief: Israel air strike on Iran 'stupidest thing I have ever heard'

In first public appearance since leaving post as Mossad chief, Meir Dagan warns of regional war if Iran is attacked; says fall of Assad regime would benefit Israel.

By Yossi Melman
Tags: Iran Iran nuclear


Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan referred to the possibility a future Israeli Air Force attack on Iranian nuclear facilities as "the stupidest thing I have ever heard" during a conference held at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem on Friday.

Dagan's presentation during a senior faculty conference was his first public appearance since leaving his former role as chief of the Mossad at the end of September 2010.

Dagan said that Iran has a clandestine nuclear infrastructure which functions alongside its legitimate, civil infrastructure. It is the legitimate infrastructure, he said, that is under international supervision by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Any strike on this legitimate infrastructure would be "patently illegal under international law," according to Dagan.

Dagan emphasized that attacking Iran would be different than Israel's successful air strike on Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981. Iran has scattered its nuclear facilities in different places around the country, he said, which would make it difficult for Israel to launch an effective attack.


Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan

Photo by: Nir Keidar

According to Dagan, there is proof that Iran has the capability to divert its nuclear activities from place to place in order to take them out of the watchful eye of international supervision and intelligence agencies. No one in Iran would have any problems in building a centrifuge system in a school basement if they wished to, he said.

The IAF's abilities are not in doubt, Dagan emphasized, but the doubts relate to the possibilities of completing the mission and reaching all targets.

When asked about what would happen in the aftermath of an Israeli attack Dagan said that: "It will be followed by a war with Iran. It is the kind of thing where we know how it starts, but not how it will end."

The Iranians have the capability to fire rockets at Israel for a period of months, and Hizbollah could fire tens of thousands of grad rockets and hundreds of long-range missiles, he said.

At the same time, Tehran can activate Hamas, and there is also a danger that Syria will join the war, Dagan added.

The former Mossad chief expressed disagreement with the opinions of pundits regarding the uprisings across the Middle East since the beginning of 2011 saying that "there is no tsunami of change in the Middle East." He added that events "historical schisms within Arab society."

What sparked the Egyptian people to mass protest on the street was not an "internet revolution," especially considering the fact that most Egyptians do not have computers. In Eygpt, there was no revolution, but regime change, according to Dagan, and he is convinced that there is no chance that the Muslim Brotherhood will gain power because of fears that their taking power will damage the Egyptian economy, particularly income from tourism and U.S. aid.

It will be better for Israel if Syrian President Bashar Assad is removed from power because this will stop help to Hizbollah, and weaken Iranian influence, Dagan said in regards to the situation in Syria. It will also strengthen the Sunni camp in Syria and in the Arab world in general, and these things will be good for Israel strategically, he added.

Dagan believes that Assad will fight to the end. "He has no alternative," Dagan stated.



Hey Fats how come this guy isn't listening to you? Or is that why he is now unemployed?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 11, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
a few years ago, the UN reported that spain translates into spanish more books in one year than have been translated into arabic in the last 1000 years...but, maybe, there's hope:


http://bigpeace.com/stzu/2011/05/11/baghdad-holds-first-book-fair-in-20-years/

dirtbag

climber
May 11, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
There is no clash of civilizations, just panicky old men.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 12, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
The clash in Thailand!


As a consequence, during 86 months beginning from January 2004 to February 2011, there were 10,660 incidents of violence, which have led to considerably soaring records of casualties, 4,631 fatalities and 7,505 injuries. The majority of death tolls were Muslims and, on the contrary, most of the injuries constitute the Buddhist civilians. That violence has brought about 12,126 victims within 7 years makes Thailand’s southernmost region one of the hotspot, most sensitive areas in the world.


http://www.deepsouthwatch.org/node/1603
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 15, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/05/15/israel.border.violence/index.html

A PEACEFUL DEMOCRACY my ass!
ahad aham

Trad climber
May 16, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
sure, and next week when he grovels before aipac. let's see if he pardons that Pollard scum
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 17, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/not-all-palestinian-demands-are-a-threat-to-israel-1.362218
Published 01:05 17.05.11Latest update 01:05 17.05.11

**Not all Palestinian demands are a threat to Israel
Nakba Day events were not an attempt to destroy Israel: They simply expressed in a different form the demands the Palestinian leadership has been putting forth for years.**

Haaretz Editorial
The defense minister was right to say he refuses to get excited over the fact that "a few dozen" Palestinians succeeded in entering Israel from Syria and thereby "violated Israel's sovereignty."

Ehud Barak was also right to say that the Israel Defense Forces cannot station thousands of soldiers along the border to prevent such a "violation of sovereignty."


Demonstrators on the border in the Golan Heights, May 15, 2011.

Photo by: Yaron Kaminsky

But it's a pity this approach was lacking when Israel decided to attack a Turkish-sponsored flotilla to Gaza, that it vanishes when Israel uses dogs to chase off Palestinian laborers seeking to "violate its sovereignty" by entering the country to work, and that it's the exact opposite of the manner in which the IDF maintains its meticulous closure of the Gaza Strip.

It turns out that according to Barak, a "violation of sovereignty" is not an existential threat, or even a strategic one. At most, this was an intelligence failure that was partially compensated for by wise judgment on the part of commanders in the field.

And in fact, this is the appropriate attitude for a country that is making little effort to delineate its borders, instead relying on an empty policy that assumes Israel can continue to exist in flexible, unrecognized borders that trespass on territory belonging to other nations.

As a result of this policy, the state's sovereignty has also become flexible rather than absolute. It's no surprise that statements about the events of Nakba Day made much use of words and phrases such as "terror," "threat," "the IDF's deployment," "the number of dead and wounded," "a third intifada" and "the threat we can expect in September."

This is the standard lexicon that the government pulls out whenever it is faced with the need to present real solutions to fundamental problems.

The government all too easily assigns the IDF the job of "being ready for any scenario" and making diplomatic decisions in its stead.

The events of Nakba Day are neither a "reminder" nor a "threat," and they certainly aren't an attempt to destroy the State of Israel. Rather, they reflect the Palestinians' fundamental historical demand for an independent state with recognized sovereignty, within whose framework the refugee problem, too, can be solved.

The Nakba Day events simply expressed in a different form the demands the Palestinian leadership has been putting forth for years, and that Israel has evaded. It is not the IDF that is supposed to provide solutions for these "incidents," but the government.

Yet the latter still has trouble understanding that the next stage is not another intifada, but international pressure and a battle against the great powers.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 17, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
It turns out that according to Barak, a "violation of sovereignty" is not an existential threat, or even a strategic one. At most, this was an intelligence failure that was partially compensated for by wise judgment on the part of commanders in the field.

And in fact, this is the appropriate attitude for a country that is making little effort to delineate its borders, instead relying on an empty policy that assumes Israel can continue to exist in flexible, unrecognized borders that trespass on territory belonging to other nations.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 17, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Fatty,

Peaceful Palestinian women and children getting arms, face, legs and just about everything ripped, torn, injured from dogs that Israel is using on their side of the fence.

Guess it better than shooting them EH. Asshole
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 17, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
count me in the other 33%.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 17, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
Good on ya Coot.
Keep speaking "Truth to Power".
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 31, 2011 - 09:49am PT
nothing to see, here, move along...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4076176,00.html

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
May 31, 2011 - 10:21am PT
Nothing to see here either. Just some Rabbi calling for the death of all Arabs.....


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/god-must-kill-evil-arabs-says-rabbi-680975.html
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jun 1, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
Here's the new power combo, if the US doesn't get it's debt in order:

Good!
Let the Muslim world be pissed at China for a while.

EDIT

I know where Jeff will be moving.....
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jun 2, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
In 1993, there was an official exchange of letters between Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Chairman Arafat, in which Arafat declared that "the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid."In 2009 Prime Minister Ehud Olmert demanded the Palestinian Authority's acceptance of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, which the Palestinian Authority rejected. The Knesset plenum gave initial approval in May 2009 to a bill criminalising the public denial of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, with a penalty of up to a year in prison.
According to the linguist Noam Chomsky, the term "right to exist" is unique to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: "No state has a right to exist, and no one demands such a right....In an effort to prevent negotiations and a diplomatic settlement, the U.S. and Israel insisted on raising the barrier to something that nobody’s going to accept....[ Palestinians are] not going to accept...the legitimacy of their dispossession." John V. Whitbeck argued that Israel's insistence on a right to exist forces Palestinians to provide a moral justification for their own suffering.

I'm beginning to further understand why Israel is sooooooo hated by anyone who actually thinks.
Continual legislation by various nations to criminalize the criticism of the state of Israel and Israels continual stonewalling of peace efforts. Fricking thought police.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 4, 2011 - 12:03am PT
Absolutely brilliant!

http://www.silverbulletgunoil.net

The testimonials (mail call)are priceless.

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jun 5, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
Actually, Jeff, I hold Nazi's in as much contempt as Zionists.
Their goals are one in the same.
At worst they both want an ethnically clean "Homeland" and at best those that are not MOTT would be relegated to second, third or even lower class citizenry.

Any way all you'd have to do is put on some steel-toed Doc. Martens and a wife-beater and you'd look like the poster boy for the Aryan nation.
Heck you have acted like a member of the Aryan nation, abusing your power by torturing someone saying it is for the good of the community but in reality you were going against the very principals you were charged with upholding.
Ironic isn't it.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jun 9, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
Doug to Jeff - F*#k you!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 10, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
Doug to Jeff - F*#k you!
Don't be a dickhead. If a point is to be had, and you can't say it but resort to a personal attack: then you are just a dumb prick. You may actually have a good point to make. Say it in full, without the personal attacks and with links and supporting information so we can all discuss it and either learn or refute your statements like adults.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
the only democracy in the middle east

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDjbTR8Br_w&feature=player_embedded
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 10, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
a real "career"

ONE DOLLAR a year, little "deputy".

Posts his little "certificate" like a child bringing home a report card to mommy.

What a dumb wanker
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
More on Turkey and the clash

given the "Zionist" source, use the salt shaker.

http://debka.com/article/21015/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 22, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Today's LA Times:

Staying the course in Afghanistan

By Max Boot
June 22, 2011

President Obama is due to announce Wednesday the size of the withdrawal from Afghanistan following a bruising internal debate within the administration. Proponents of a fast, immediate drawdown have been making essentially two arguments, neither especially compelling.

There is the fiscal argument: We can't afford the cost of the war effort. It's true that we are facing a budget crunch, but the savings from a large withdrawal now would be negligible.

The debate in the administration has been over how fast to bring home 30,000 "surge" troops out of a total force of 100,000. Even if all 30,000 were withdrawn tomorrow — which has not been on the table — we would save only a small portion of the $107 billion the war is set to cost next year, and that would have no appreciable impact on a $3.7-trillion federal budget or the $14.3-trillion debt.

The strategic argument for a fast drawdown is premised on the claim that Al Qaeda is already crippled and therefore we have nothing to fear by pulling 10,000 or more troops out of Afghanistan this summer, another 10,000 early next year and 10,000 more by the end of 2012. If White House leaks are to be believed, some senior administration officials concluded that the counterinsurgency campaign launched only last year is a waste of time; all we need to do is rely on targeted air and commando strikes of the kind that have devastated Al Qaeda's senior leadership in Pakistan.

What that argument misses is the extent to which our presence in Afghanistan enables us to project power into Pakistan. It was from Afghanistan, after all, that the Navy SEALs took off to kill Osama bin Laden. If we pull back in Afghanistan, the Taliban will gain ground and the willingness of the Afghan government to provide us the bases we need will decline. That, in turn, will make it markedly more difficult to keep the pressure on Al Qaeda and prevent it from regenerating itself as it has in the past.

Moreover, we shouldn't get overly fixated on Al Qaeda. Admittedly it is the terrorist group that has had the most success in targeting the American homeland. But it is hardly the only threat to the U.S. and our interests. It would be a catastrophe if we were to pull out prematurely from Afghanistan and allow groups like the Haqqani network and the Taliban — both closely linked to Al Qaeda — to come to power. That would not only allow Afghanistan to once again become a base for terrorists but would also endanger the already fragile situation in Pakistan.

The administration can argue that even after we pull out all of the surge forces, we would have 70,000 troops in Afghanistan, considerably more than were there when President George W. Bush left office. But that is scant comfort because in 2009, the Taliban was on the verge of taking over southern Afghanistan. The surge has allowed coalition commanders to roll back Taliban gains in Kandahar and Helmand provinces. But the current progress is tentative and uncertain. Pull out a substantial number of our forces now and the success of the entire war effort is thrown into jeopardy.

Counterinsurgency is a manpower-intensive exercise. We barely have enough troops in Afghanistan to carry out the plan devised by Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal and revised by Army Gen. David H. Petraeus. With a significant drawdown, it will become impossible to secure the civilian population, even in the south much less in the east, which is the next vital area of operations. The Taliban can then infiltrate back into onetime strongholds from which it has only recently been ejected.

Psychology is also important: Most Afghans, like people anywhere caught in a civil war, are fence sitters. They are trying to divine who will win before they decide which side it is safe to support. With the surge and the resulting counterinsurgency campaign, the coalition has grabbed crucial momentum. If Obama orders deep troop drawdowns, it will be taken as a sign by Afghans that we are not serious about winning the war. That, in turn, will make it much harder for our remaining troops to win cooperation from scared civilians and will make it correspondingly easier for the Taliban to recover lost ground.

It is hard to see why the president would be willing to take actions now that would jeopardize the success of one of his signature policies: the war effort in Afghanistan. If he keeps our surge forces intact, and if things go badly anyway, he will to some extent be absolved of blame because he can claim to have followed the best military advice available. But if he disregards the advice to limit the drawdown this year and next, and if things then go badly (as they easily could), the resulting fiasco will be entirely on his shoulders.

Whether from a political or a strategic standpoint, the smart course now is to continue to give the surge time to work. Anything else is shortsighted advice that is likely to come back to haunt the president.

Max Boot is a contributing editor to Opinion and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
There is no 'winning' in Afghanistan. We control essentially nothing outside of Kabul and our base perimeters. We could stay there for the next twenty years and that will still be the situation on the ground the very next day.

You want to 'win'? Bump up our troop strength there to 600k, seal the border with Pakistan, and do counterinsurgency work for the next ten years providing real, solid infrastructure improvements. That would give you a shot at a 'win', but at the expense of our own schools and infrastructure - i.e. not much of win outside of for defense contractors.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
AS I said, there is no winning in Afghanistan.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jun 22, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
There is another way to win. Bomb any village hosting combatants, in Afghan or Pakistan, kill many combatants, women, children, make life so horrible that they surrender.

Well, Jeff, when you and your loved ones are taken out by a bomb instigated by revenge, I won't shed a tear.
What is that old quote that comes from the "holy book" of "your tribe" Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 22, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
I just read that this was done in 1096 during the first Crusade by the Muslims, got the Catholics to retreat.

The Muslims - on the other hand, have an even longer litany of Euro-trash transgressions on civilians in their own homes as well. In fact to this day, calling someone a "Crusader" is a term reserved for only for people from the west whom they would equate with the lowest, rudest, meanest and foulest of pig sh#t.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 22, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
Very true, the Christians were very ruthless as well. The first massacre of civilians was that of Jews in the city of Worms, Germany.

Oi vey! that list of atrocities when fleshed out for a few centuries could be very well be another very full thread.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 23, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
While Netanyahu and his buddies checked out the new underground nuclear shelter today dubbed the “Nation’s Tunnel” by local media., Wednesday’s exercise, “Turning Point 5″, which envisaged heavy shelling and thousands of dead and wounded on several Israeli fronts.
JERUSALEM (Reuters)

The rich Israelis do not trust their own government to protect them and have built their own for last couple of years, while the other 2/3 of Israeli population do not have any.

Fatty you have to remember that the Israeli strike would have to hit Iran in 15 different locations and not just one. And they do not know where the other 14 are so they have to guess.

What was the movie that kid said “I see dead people”?

A lot of dead people. Those that are lucky and eventually come out of their shelters [one month] how many Israelis will be left? A couple of hundred maybe a thousand max. Oh? How would that trading agreement with the Chinese go and the economic recovery take place? Guess that this question would have to be answered in the election debates with your fellow Republicans. Where is money coming from to help out?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
Three Russian designers of Iran's nuclear plant die in plane crash
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report June 23, 2011, 12:00 PM (GMT+02:00)
Tags: Iran nuclear Russia Bushehr Stuxnet
Three Russian scients who built Bushehr

The three Russian nuclear scientists who planned, designed, built and put into operation Iran's first nuclear reactor at Bushehr this year, died Tuesday night, June 20, when a Rusaero flight from Moscow to Petrozavodsk in northwest Russia crashed.

debkafile's sources reveal that they were among the 44 passengers who were killed.
Their loss is a severe blow to Russia's atomic reactor industry as well as its nuclear program as a whole, since the three, Sergey Ryzhov, Gennady Banuyk and Nikolay Trunov, specialized in running installations in tandem and synchronizing various systems.

The Russian company OKB Gidropress, Moscow, which employed them as chief planners of nuclear plants, is proud of having sold reactors to five countries including Iran.
The authorities have ordered an investigation to find out why all three senior nuclear scientists were aboard the same airliner in violation of Russian security regulations which prohibit more than one high-ranking politician, military figure or executive of a sensitive industry taking the same flight.
The cause of the Tu-134's crash is also being probed - although it has a notoriously high accident rate and should not have been used by the three scientists. The eight passengers who survived, who are in critical condition, are to be quizzed to find out what happened aboard the plane before it crashed.
The first assumption was that the disaster occurred due to human error. The three pilots missed the runway while landing at Petrozavodsk's Nikolay Trunov airport because of heavy fog. It caught fire next to a highway.
This was the worst Russian aviation disaster since April 10, 2010, when a plane carrying the Polish president, his wife and many other Polish dignitaries crashed in similar circumstances near the city of Smolensk killing 97 people.

Our sources report that Iran chose to buy its first reactor from OKB Gidropress because the Russian firm bills itself as designers, builders, planners and operators of nuclear plants, specializing in adapting them to existing nuclear systems. For Tehran this capability was critical because the Bushehr reactor is composed of systems made in different countries, particularly Germany, and experts were needed for synchronizing them into a smoothly functioning plant.

debkafile's intelligence sources quote Iranian and Western intelligence officials as offering the opinion that the Bushehr reactor's mixed components made it vulnerable to the Stuxnet malworm's invasion of its control system two years ago. The three Russian scientists spent February and March 2011 at Bushehr after the Russian Nuclear Energy Commission insisted that the nuclear fuel rods be removed until they were sure the plant would not explode. The rods have since been reloaded and the reactor went online last month.

Wednesday, June 22, the OKB Gidropress Company Web site ran a black-bordered obituary mourning the deaths of Sergey Ryzhov, 52, Director General designer at OKB Gidropress, Gennady Banuyk, 65, Deputy Director and Chief Designer and Nikolay Trunov, 52, Chief Designer-Head of Division.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
The most interesting factoid is that this has been made public.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/ss_military0768_06_22.asp
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 23, 2011 - 10:43pm PT

No so TGT, we do these kinds of official backdoor "leaks" for reasons all the time. Quoted below.

Wednesday, June 22, 2011 INTELLIGENCE BRIEFING

U.S. Air Force advised to conduct simulations
for strike against nuclear Iran
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force has been urged to prepare for war with Iran.


The Rand Corp. asserted that the Air Force must increase exercises and testing of weapons as part of preparations for any order to attack Iran. In a report for the Air Force, Rand warned that the prospect of a U.S. air strike could turn real once Iran was deemed to have assembled a nuclear weapons arsenal.

"Timelines for military tasks will depend on what happens in Iran's nuclear program," the report, titled "Iran's Nuclear Future: Critical U.S. Policy Choices prepared for the U.S. Air Force," said.


The report urged such U.S. preparations as exercises and war simulations. Rand said the Air Force should train to fight under nuclear threat as well as targeting Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, responsible for strategic weapons programs.

"Design exercises and war games to support different policy choices," Rand said. "Exercise objectives for bombers could aim not only to demonstrate to Iran that investment in nuclear capabilities could possibly be destroyed but also to influence the internal Iranian debate over nuclear weaponization."

The simulations would be based on the escalation of conflict between Iran and the United States. Rand said the wargames would test the air force's ability to deter Iran with and without U.S. nuclear weapons.

"Provide ways to manage escalation in conflict with Iran," the report said. "Investigate concepts of operations to manage escalation in U.S.-Iran conflict, e.g., reinforce political communication that signals limited U.S. objectives; focus on immediate threat by directly targeting Iran's regime-supporting paramilitary forces; and withhold targeting of Iran's political leadership."

Rand said Iran could be expected to act rationally and would demonstrate caution in any conflict with the United States. The report said Teheran, despite its anti-Israel rhetoric, regards Washington as the chief threat and could resist U.S. military pressure.

"The Iranian government is aware of the United States' overwhelming nuclear capability, including the U.S. intercontinental ballistic missiles and sea-launched ballistic missiles," the report said. Greater psychological effect on Iranian political and military decisionmakers could possibly be achieved by U.S. movements and exercises of its nuclear-capable bombers and dual-capable fighter aircraft in the region to signal to Iran the potential costs of nuclear weaponization."

The U.S. military was expected to face Iran's conventional forces as well as IRGC. The report envisioned such Iranian responses as massive missile strikes on Gulf Cooperation Council states and Israel as well as blocking the Strait of Hormuz, the passage for 30 percent of crude oil exports.

"In addition, more advanced missiles, such as the Shihab-3 and Sejil, may provide it with the opportunity to target parts of Europe and Russia," the report said.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
Can't wait - a fouth credit card war! Whoopee! How come you never hear Republicans talk about fully-funded, cash-on-the-warhead wars?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Can't wait - a fouth credit card war! Whoopee! How come you never hear Republicans talk about fully-funded, cash-on-the-warhead wars?

It's not a repub/demo issue, it a "Welcome to the machine" issue. Obama is as part of the machine as the next republican.

As I understand it, our major "credit card issuer" had placed some earlier limits and restrictions on our previously near unlimited credit. Looks like they may be back as a few days ago to bail out th efed, who is now the largest holder of US debt, but I don't believe it would be without any restrictions on this kind of issue.

B4
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-17/china-trims-u-s-bond-holdings-for-fifth-month-as-debt-approaches-ceiling.html

After
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2011/06/16/China-resumes-buying-of-treasuries/UPI-45041308206912/


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
I do view it as a dem/repub issue in that repubs always want to talk about how government benefits are going to be funded. They never want to talk about how tax breaks for the rich and corporations are going to be funded, they never want to talk about how wars are going to be funded.

Somehow money will 'trickle down' from the rich and the fruits of democracy will reward us in war. It's just so much bullshit and really all about lining the pockets of corporate share holders and the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class.

Every time I hear a republican talk about god, commies, gays, blacks, latinos, and now muslims I instinctively reach back and check to make sure my wallet is still there.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 24, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
**All 4 bolts are loose at a Heart ledges rap route anchor
Quitting Tobacco
Climate Change skeptics? [ot]
Death of the Republicans Wrong Thread
5 lbs of Hamachi and no direction...
Mark Hudon NAKED!
Just turned 25 today
standard lovers leap rack
the "golden age" of the Tahoe area~~
Sentinel Rock Summit Register- Classic Who's Who 1934-1976
No more TRADGIRL
Every Picture Tells a Story Don't It?
Malignent Melanoma Survivors who climb
STONEY POINT
A Visit to Sterling Rope in Maine: How Ropes Are Made
ScuffyB
Clash of Civilizations - part XXXXI (Warfare and Obama)
Priest Station Cafe & Store: Stop by on the way to Yosemite
Sandy, UT
More late season ElCap shots.
Practicality of DSLR Cameras With Video
FACT: MARYJAWANNA = GATEWAY DRUG
The Very Large Trout Lover's Thread (ot)
southern yosemite
Squamish Hand Crack
WHAT SONG are you listening to right now?
Six Months Until 2011 Yosemite FaceLift
Recall Alert: GRIGRI 2
Accident on Fairview Dome
easiest route that you've whipped on?
Amen.**
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 25, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A...

"yea, though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death, i shall fear no evil because [we're] the baddest m* f** in the valley"

i mean, how long before this system becomes "personal"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_yz_ONZltA


i'm feeling even better about chances of winning this clash
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 25, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
and then i read something like this:


http://www.nationalreview.com/planet-gore/270442/gore-population-needs-stabilize-prevent-global-warming-nat-brown


oh, brave new world...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 25, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Bookworm, as long as Gore has his kids it's perfectly acceptable for him to limit others family choices.

I wonder if he'll tell that to African and South American nations?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 4, 2011 - 01:29am PT
Muslim suicide bombers in Britain are set to begin a three-day strike on Monday in a dispute over the number of virgins they are entitled to in the afterlife. Emergency talks with Al Qaeda have so far failed to produce an agreement.

The unrest began last Tuesday when Al Qaeda announced that the number of virgins a suicide bomber would receive after his death will be cut by 20% this February, from 72 to only 60. The rationale for the cut was the increase in recent years of the number of suicide bombings and a subsequent shortage of virgins in the afterlife.

The suicide bomber's union, the British Organization of Occupational Martyrs (BOOM) responded with a statement that this was unacceptable to its members, and immediately voted for strike action. General Secretary Abdullah Muhammad Abdullah told the press, "Our members are literally working themselves to death in the cause of jihad. We don't ask for much in return, and to be treated like this is like a kick in the teeth."

Speaking from his shed in Tipton in the west midlands, in which he currently resides, the Al Qaeda chief executive explained, "We sympathize with our workers' concerns, but Al Qaeda is simply not in a position to meet their demands. They are simply not accepting the realities of modern-day jihad in a competitive marketplace. Thanks to western depravity there is now a chronic shortage of virgins in the afterlife. It's a straight choice between reducing expenditure and laying people off. “I don't like cutting wages but I'd hate to have to tell 3,000 of my staff that they won't be able to blow themselves up."

Spokespersons for the union in the northeast of England, Ireland, Wales, Australia, and of course United States and Canada stated that the strike would not affect their operations, as "there are no virgins in their areas anyway."

Apparently the drop in the number of suicide bombings has been put down to the emergence of Scottish singing star Susan Boyle - now that Muslims know what an actual virgin looks like they are not so keen on going to paradise.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 4, 2011 - 10:43am PT
Ha ha ha ha Anders that was priceless.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
Yargle
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
Bargle
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
The Audacity of Dopes Band

Guns guns guns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5CsGViY5JQ&feature=player_embedded
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 8, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
First post of the thread in 2009.

Thought I would start a new thread as military action against Iran is imminent. Let's see if President Obama has any courage and participates against the rogue nation. Look for Hezbollah to begin an offensive against Israel first as a distraction.


Credibility points for Fat, zero.

Dude, what does imminent mean? Two years later is imminent?


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 9, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
This website concentrates on all things naval.

Interesting analysis.

http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/07/israeli-soft-power-crushing-free-gaza.html#disqus_thread

On another topic,
http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/08/your-rape-culture-is-not-my-religion.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
LOL! Classic Anders! One of the best posts ever:-) ROTF!!!!

Mighty Hiker said:
Muslim suicide bombers in Britain are set to begin a three-day strike on Monday in a dispute over the number of virgins they are entitled to in the afterlife. Emergency talks with Al Qaeda have so far failed to produce an agreement.

The unrest began last Tuesday when Al Qaeda announced that the number of virgins a suicide bomber would receive after his death will be cut by 20% this February, from 72 to only 60. The rationale for the cut was the increase in recent years of the number of suicide bombings and a subsequent shortage of virgins in the afterlife.

The suicide bomber's union, the British Organization of Occupational Martyrs (BOOM) responded with a statement that this was unacceptable to its members, and immediately voted for strike action. General Secretary Abdullah Muhammad Abdullah told the press, "Our members are literally working themselves to death in the cause of jihad. We don't ask for much in return, and to be treated like this is like a kick in the teeth."

Speaking from his shed in Tipton in the west midlands, in which he currently resides, the Al Qaeda chief executive explained, "We sympathize with our workers' concerns, but Al Qaeda is simply not in a position to meet their demands. They are simply not accepting the realities of modern-day jihad in a competitive marketplace. Thanks to western depravity there is now a chronic shortage of virgins in the afterlife. It's a straight choice between reducing expenditure and laying people off. “I don't like cutting wages but I'd hate to have to tell 3,000 of my staff that they won't be able to blow themselves up."

Spokespersons for the union in the northeast of England, Ireland, Wales, Australia, and of course United States and Canada stated that the strike would not affect their operations, as "there are no virgins in their areas anyway."

Apparently the drop in the number of suicide bombings has been put down to the emergence of Scottish singing star Susan Boyle - now that Muslims know what an actual virgin looks like they are not so keen on going to paradise.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:59pm PT

JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) -- A man reportedly trying to show students how to make explosives was killed by a homemade bomb inside an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia, police said Tuesday.

School officials and students have prevented police from entering the building since Monday's explosion, local police spokesman Lt. Col. Sukarman Husen said.

But they discovered the body of the suspected bomb maker, a 30-year-old man identified only as Firdaus, on a bus Tuesday as it tried to leave the school compound, he said.

Eleven people have been taken in for questioning, Husen said, adding that police also confiscated a number of arrows and machetes.

http://ap.stripes.com/dynamic/stories/A/AS_INDONESIA_EXPLOSION?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-12-07-25-33
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
There is no C of C.

Next!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
There is only Fattrad's warmongering desire for America to go bankrupt Wiping out Arabs so the world will be safe for the Zionist Commies.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
Yes, there's that, Philo.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
Dropping names is better than dropping bombs, I suppose.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 20, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Bet you think no one reads this stuff? LOL. Loose lips sinks ships..they say.

I suspect that there will be some quiet diplomatic additional massive financial inducements to the Iranians to abandon this effort: who knows what will be said and done behind closed doors when the largest stick and the largest carrot in the world are presented for the final time. Certainly we can afford to offer a lot given how much a war would cost. The public may never know.

For myself, I hope that the Lion will finally lay down with the Lamb...but won't hold my breath.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 20, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
And then there is NuttyYahoo.

Can't forget the chief fruit cake in the weenie beenie.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
"Clash"?


Yawn...zzzzzzz...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 22, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
"Clash"?


Yawn...zzzzzzz...

I'll bet the relatives of thirty seven dead Norwegians don't think that.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
There is no Clash TGT.

So yes, the concept of the Clash is a huge circle jerk of neocon chickenhawks.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
BBC live feed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
Sorry, but their are people in leadership positions in the Islamic world that want to convert or kill you.

That's not a C of C.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
LOL

No it isn't fatty. It's not a war between religions. It's a conflict with a radical Islam against everyone else.

Not all of Islam.

Radical Islam.

A minority faction.

For all your supposed bigwig connections and lecturing to me and others about our supposed naivete you still don't get this.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
^^^ Fatty, SO WHAT! It's their country to rule not Israel's to control.




And what does that have to do with Norway?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:45am PT
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4101572,00.html

OPPS, NOT at Student after all...looks like it's becoming seriouser.

Yeah -I made that last word up. I'm an Israeli supporter. Openly too. Why should we not support stopping any country that would like to push all those folks into the sea? Like everyone, I would like to see the lion lay down with the lamb in peace and harmony, but if that can't happen, and that is the possibility de jour, then if I have to pick a side I'll pick Israel.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 1, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
http://flashydubai.com/uae-will-be-first-country-in-world-to-be-armed-with-missile-shield/

Be interesting to see what the true capabilities are of this system. http://flashydubai.com/uae-will-be-first-country-in-world-to-be-armed-with-missile-shield/

Emirates is the first to own it......
The UAE, he said, will be the first country in the world to be armed with the anti-missile THAAD or Terminal High Altitude Area Defense, developed and built by US defense company Lockheed Martin.

“The THAAD anti-missile system is only deployed and operated by the American forces in Poland and Israel, but in the case of the UAE, it will be possessed and fully operated by Emiratis.”

Wonder why they don't let the Israelis get their hands on it? Perhaps this is a political thing so as not to piss off the Saudis or other arabs? We did something similar with warheads for Germany. Sold them the missiles, and we moved in and controlled the warheads...some interesting times:-)


The Israelis have multiple layers of anti missile defenses, most of which have not been tested.... yet. I would not want to be in their shoes. This game, if such it can be called, is too serious and cannot have a single mistake.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 2, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
Thanks, my post was incorrect. I meant to say "most of which have not been tested in actual battle"....or something to that effect, no one would actually implement those kinds of complex systems with so many lives on the line without a full battery of tests. Whether the tests can duplicate the actual complexities of war is the question in my mind. Even the Patriot system, which has seen use, has not seen the load of a full scale attack like the Iranians would be likely to bring. Furthermore, I would expect that both of the major Saudi refinery's which process a large % of the worlds crude would be hit early as well. (easy targets, the Shias hate the Wahhabi's, big ripple and other effects blah blah)

May the Iranians do a change up pitch and walk away from this looming disaster: and the anti-missile programs all rust away in peace and quiet for many generations, never having been needed or utilized simply for lack of need. Plan for the worst, but hope for the best.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 2, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
Interesting read from Barnett

http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2011/08/01/might-al-zawahiris-al-qaida-come-to-view-future-nuclear-power-iran-as-the-perfect-sanctuary/
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Aug 5, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
barry's strategery for making the world safer:

"President Obama is committed to strengthening the United States Government's ability to prevent mass atrocities and serious human rights violations. . . . Today, President Obama is directing a comprehensive review to strengthen the United States' ability to prevent mass atrocities. The President's directive creates an important new tool in this effort, establishing a standing interagency Atrocities Prevention Board."


i guess this also counts as barry's strategery for cutting spending
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 7, 2011 - 07:55am PT
Wonder Fatty when Netanyahu going cut loose the IDF start shooting your own people seems happening you guys are having the same problem? Rich virsus poor. They will start with rubber bullets but somehow Oh? we thought we were using them someone changed using the new green ones.

By the way not enough missiles will stop coming in. You are a dreamer.

Your clash is gone, history, new generation with different ideas and agendas.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Aug 9, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
finally, proof that barry is NOT the messiah: he doesn't know where jerusalem is


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/white-house-cleanses-israel-website_588127.html



winston smith is evil
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
One region completely ignored by the media is Southern Thailand.

Jihadis kill about one person every day.

School teachers, local police and Buddhist monks seem to be the favorite targets, but often it's two working parents on their way to or from work who just happen to have the wrong religion.

The toll is mounting.

4455 orphans so far.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/4455-children-orphaned-by-unrest-in-deep-South-30162553.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 15, 2011 - 09:56am PT
Interesting article how American tax dollars are actively funding and supporting the murder of innocent Israeli and Americans including civilians by Palestinians.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146779#.TkkfsWGxofV

survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 15, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Interesting how American tax dollars are actively funding and supporting the murder of innocent Afghani, Iraqi and Palestinian civilians by Israelis and Americans as well eh?

The new new Evil
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 16, 2011 - 10:43am PT
They must be running out of teachers to kill.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/252073/school-bus-driver-killed-in-pattani
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Aug 17, 2011 - 08:10am PT
August 17, 2011 4:00 A.M.

The Futures of Civilization

On the glorious (though not unblemished) past and uncertain future of the West

Since classical antiquity, historians have tended to think that empires, like individual organisms, evince a discernible rhythm. They come into being, mature, and then, soon or late, decay and decline. What Edward Gibbon did for historical literature in performing this kind of imperial autopsy on Rome, Thomas Cole did for the world of art. In The Course of Empire, a series of five elegant paintings that hang in the New-York Historical Society museum, Cole captured this imperial life cycle in painstaking brushstrokes.

In Civilization: The West and the Rest (which won’t be published in this country till November, but which has made quite a stir in Britain), Niall Ferguson has come along to tell us that it need not be this way. Taking the long view of history has not, however, inclined him to the cheerful Whig presumption that civilization “shall not perish from the earth.” The study of history — described by Auden as “breaking bread with the dead” — is presumably too melancholy an endeavor to justify such vain hopes. Ferguson’s prodigious communing with the dead has led him to believe that not only will the forces of composition yield to those of decomposition, but they may do so with dramatic speed. If at times history appears to have a cyclical quality, he reminds us that it is actually far more haphazard. Contrary to the impression left by The Course of Empire, there is nothing historically determined about the life cycle of empires: “There is no such thing as the future. There are only futures, plural.”

Intimately acquainted with chaos theory, the author probes a sobering question: “What if history is not cyclical and slow-moving but arrhythmic — sometimes almost stationary, but also capable of violent acceleration?” To better press home his point, Ferguson might have employed the scientific term “hysteresis,” which comes from the Greek word hysterein, meaning “to be late” — that is, once decline well and truly sets in, it is too late to reverse it. Nonetheless, he succeeds at putting one in mind of Shelley’s poem “Ozymandias,” in which the traveler “from an antique land” tells of passing in the desert a shattered, half-buried visage of some bygone pharaoh, whose pedestal bore the inscription “Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!” And yet those works were not immune to history’s special wrath, and a “colossal wreck” ensued, leaving behind nothing but sands “boundless and bare.”

But for a civilization to fall it must first rise. Ferguson sets out to answer why, beginning around 1500, a few small polities on the western end of the Eurasian landmass came to dominate the rest of the world. He identifies six factors — what he dubs, perhaps a touch too cleverly, the “killer apps” — that combined to give the civilization of the West a decisive edge over the Rest. He summarizes them as follows: competition, science, property rights, medicine, the consumer society, and the work ethic.

Ferguson has long been a firm advocate of hypothetical or “counterfactual” history — replete with “What if?” questions — on the grounds that history cannot be understood without appreciating that what we call the past was once the future. He stays loyal to this (unfairly maligned) method in Civilization, and harnesses it to superb effect. He maintains that without developing — or, if you like, downloading — these crucial innovations, civilization never would have climbed to its present height. It is impossible not to notice that the profusion of economically destitute and politically repressive states around the globe owe their status to the absence of one or more of the “killer apps.” What’s more, the undeniable decline of former leading states is largely attributable to their losing them or, as the case may be, casting them off.

With this Western-centered framework, Ferguson invites charges of parochialism. Yet he does not intend “Western” to connote any sort of incompatibility with other cultures. The germ of the principles that he cites as catalysts of civilization is, in broad terms, classical liberalism — a concept that derives in large measure from the English-speaking peoples, but is universalist in nature. It is for this reason rarely an imposition, though armies have occasionally attended its advance. Its abiding power lies in magnetic attraction, spreading “more by the word than by the sword.” The foundations of civilization, as Ferguson shows, were put down in the West while they were being shunned almost everywhere else.

It is hard to quarrel with Ferguson on this score; it is a simple fact, for instance, that the scientific revolution owed scarcely any debt to the non-Western world. A good illustration of why this was so can be found in the story of Takiyüddin al-Rasid, the gifted scientist who constructed an observatory of some sophistication in medieval Istanbul. “Under the influence of Sheikh ul-Islam Kadizade,” Ferguson recounts, “the Sultan deemed the project blasphemous and in 1580 ordered it destroyed. There would not be another observatory in Istanbul until 1868.” One further fact assists in pointing up the contrast between the West and the Rest: In 1500, the future imperial powers of Europe were minor entities, accounting for about 10 percent of the world’s land surface and at most 16 percent of its population. By 1913 eleven Western empires controlled nearly three-fifths of the world’s territory and population and more than three-quarters of its economic output. So much for a universal civilization.

Ferguson is especially canny, however, on the imperial impulse that sought to make civilization universal. This will come as no surprise to those familiar with Empire, his illuminating work that painted the British imperial system as Oliver Cromwell asked to be painted: warts and all. Ferguson’s refusal to paint only warts deserves a brief mention because he has been dogged ever since by accusations of imperial whitewash — a “tenth-rate Kipling,” spat the master of synthetic outrage, Johann Hari. Ferguson could always be fairly acquitted on this unscrupulous charge, for his was not a crass apologia for the manifest crimes and blunders wrought in the course of Her Majesty’s empire, but instead a subtle argument that no better substitute had been evolved to promote freedom and prosperity in the world.

In the chapter of Civilization on medicine, he continues to demonstrate his moral seriousness. Acknowledging that Africa “brought out the destructive worst in Europeans,” he does not allow the blemishes, hideous as they were, to vitiate the real benefits conferred on subject peoples. Gandhi may have considered Western civilization “a disease,” but without it the “Dark Continent” would have gone even longer bereft of the mercies of modern medicine. It wasn’t just the banning of witch doctors. Medical breakthroughs — from isolating the yellow-fever virus to discovering Vibrio cholerae, the bacterium that transmits cholera — proved crucial “in keeping Europeans, and hence the colonial project, alive in the tropics,” as Ferguson notes, but the lethal afflictions they cured or treated also felled Africans. It may come as a revelation that the indigenous population of French West Africa was provided free health care, something that did not exist in France. Even so, the French were not immune to the false and ugly “science” of eugenics that animated German imperialism in Namibia, where the Kaiserreich dispatched “cleansing patrols” to herd the native peoples into concentration camps. This pestilential practice remained mostly in the realm of theory among the French, impeding their mission civilisatrice, but not enough to prevent Ferguson from describing the medical wing of French imperialism (without even so much as an apology to Dr. Kouchner) as “médecins sans frontières” — doctors without borders.

The role of faith is at the center of Ferguson’s account of the work ethic. Registering a deep suspicion of atheism, he quotes approvingly from G. K. Chesterton’s The Miracle of Moon Crescent: “You hard-shelled materialists [are] all balanced on the very edge of belief — of belief in almost anything.” Himself a confirmed religious skeptic, Ferguson thus embodies a fascinating paradox: Plumbing the shallow reserves of his trust in human nature, this hard-shelled materialist finds that religious dogma, if not metaphysically true, is nonetheless a bulwark of civilization. “Religious belief (as opposed to formal observance) of any sort appears to be associated with economic growth, particularly where concepts of heaven and hell provide incentives for good behavior. This tends to mean not only hard work . . . but also thrift, honesty, trust and openness to strangers, all economically beneficial traits.” (Emphasis mine.)

This claim of the spiritual and the material as natural allies is undermined in the very next paragraph, on the evidence that “the power of the imams and mullahs snuffed out any chance of a scientific revolution in the Islamic world” and that “the Roman Catholic Church acted as one of the brakes on economic development in South America.” Ferguson does not quite address this problem, but he provides ample evidence to suggest that his defense is less of Christianity — let alone “any sort” of faith — than it is specifically of the Protestant tradition. “Protestantism made the West not only work, but also save and read.” True as this may be, given the severe burden under which civilization labors where religion holds unlimited sovereignty, perhaps it was less Christianity than Christ’s singular distinction between the temporal and the spiritual that set the West apart. This is so important a development that Ferguson might even have made more of it.

The distinction no longer applies in Europe, where God has decisively lost His contest with Caesar. To this religious atrophy Ferguson has assigned great weight. The waning of Christianity in Europe, he comments sadly, has fostered a soft relativism that has shrunk patriotism (to make use of a nice image from David Gelernter) to the size of a soccer ball. It is easy to press this rigid secularism into the service of the declining role Europe has adopted since “the Beatles, the Pill, and the mini-skirt.” Arguably a little too easy. For if European civilization was paralyzed by social liberation and got its death blow from bowing out of Christendom, then what explains that societies retaining a thick Christian residue — Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain spring to mind — share similar below-replacement-level birthrates and one-way multiculturalism with the continent’s more godless countries? Nor have the Christian churches been conspicuous in their resistance to cultural masochism. The link that Ferguson draws between religious belief and civilizational confidence therefore seems rather tenuous. As far as I can figure out, it is not the abandonment of God but the withering of natural law that exhausts the resources of civilization. It would be nearer the truth to place the blame for Europe’s crisis of civilizational morale on moral relativism rather than on atheos. The former is unreasonably “neutral toward worldviews” (as George Weigel has characterized Europe’s public ideology); the latter is nothing more than a philosophical position about the nature of the cosmos.

Here I would be remiss to omit mention of a small but significant feature of the book: The dedicatee is Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the author’s companion and, more importantly, the Somali-born former dissident member of the Dutch parliament who found asylum in the U.S. after her confident brand of liberalism fell afoul of murderous foes among the chauvinist and aggressive wing of European Islam. Ferguson’s militant liberalism discloses itself more here than in his unapologetic defense of The Wealth of Nations or The Theory of Moral Sentiments. His view of Hirsi Ali furnishes a clue to his own purpose when we read that the first political refugee from Europe since the Holocaust (as Salman Rushdie has described her) understands better than the rest of us “what Western civilization really means — and what it still has to offer the world.”

Edward Gibbon tells us that the idea of writing The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire was conceived as he “sat musing amidst the ruins of the Capitol, while the bare-footed friars were singing Vespers in the Temple of Jupiter.” For Ferguson, portents of the (second) decline and fall of the West came as he sat in Carnegie Hall, mesmerized by the music of Angel Lam, the gifted Chinese composer who “personifies the Orientalization of classical music.” This inspiration might seem a trifle less grandiose than Gibbon’s — though, admittedly, the present Capitol has not yet been laid waste by barbarian invaders. But whatever occurred to Ferguson that melodic evening has him convinced that the era of Western predominance — set in train more than 500 years ago — is spiraling toward its close. As the son of a defunct Western empire, he seems to recognize the stench of decay. And it is not obvious that his nostrils are leading him astray. The only consolation to be found is in the fact that the future is, as Ferguson knows very well, no sure thing.

— Brian Stewart is an NRO editorial associate.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Aug 17, 2011 - 08:13am PT
"People who choose to live in America should be welcome to keep many of the attributes of the culture they or their ancestors left behind. It adds to the color and vibrancy that make America a wonderful and interesting place in which to live. By all means, bring your culture — your art, your songs, your literature, your food. America will take it all and integrate it into a greater and ever more distinctively American culture.

But leave your civilization behind."


here's the rest: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/274800/defend-western-civilization-jim-lacey
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 17, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
One region completely ignored by the media is Southern Thailand.

Doesn't fit the 'religion of peace' agenda. It's a bizarre combo of Islamic radicalism mixed with Maoism. Deadly, but bizarre.

The always seem to target teachers (and LEO), much like Mao did.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 18, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
Pencilneck is now following the Stalinist,Maoist, Che model in Syria.

Shooting refugees on sight.

Mohammed, a former policeman, arrived at the Turkish border town of Yayladagi on Sunday after surviving an ambush by security forces that killed his wife and his driver.

Cuddling his one-year-old daughter, he described how his wife and elderly father had rented a car to take them from the village home near the western city of Hama – the scene of intense bloodshed last week – to the border.

They planned to send back the car and walk the last couple of miles though the mountain frontier.

But about 15 minutes' drive from the border they were flagged down by a policeman. After checking their driver's documents, said Mohammed, he waved them on.

"When we started to drive on we saw a burnt-out car hidden in the trees and then they started shooting. They had given us permission to go but it was an ambush." The car came to an abrupt halt and Mohammed threw himself through the door, dragging his seven-month pregnant wife behind him.

She was bleeding heavily from three gunshot wounds, he added.

"She told me to go, to make sure our daughter was safe and that I wouldn't live if I tried to take her.

"It was the hardest thing. The bullets were still coming," said Mohammed. "I try to tell myself she is a martyr for Syria."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8707101/Syrian-security-forces-adopt-shoot-on-sight-policy.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 23, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
Send in some pretty blond South African female reporters and they'll be so busy raping them that they won't have time or energy to worry or think about any jews.

Clash? What clash?



"We were protesting and she came up to interview us and she had a skirt on, that means we all get to F*** her? Right? Right? "
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 23, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
Send in some pretty blond South African female reporters and they'll be so busy raping them that they won't have time or energy to worry or think about any jews.

Clash? What clash?

Nice. And well put.

I would personally defend that woman myself. Some people need a good shootin'......

Animals need tooling. Have you read what they did to her??? Animals!

Jail is too good. These are the people that have shaken my respect for my fellow man.


It's gone.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:58am PT
More love from the Religion of Peas.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/security/253428/two-die-in-yala-shooting-one-killed-in-pattani
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Today's Thai kabooms brought to you courtesy of the religion of peas.

First the cops

http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/258252.html

Then the garbage men

http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/258110.html

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
..and September is the vote for Palestine in the UN. Per this article.

It may finally be time. Chilling story.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/07/05/claims-of-preparations-for-september-israeli-attack-on-iran/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:45am PT
Then if they MUST occur, you MUST go for the win. Best of luck to the home team, may the results exceed everyone's expectations and loss of life be low for all. Good luck to us all.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:18am PT
sometimes you'd think we could reason with these people...but then again no.
http://thedemotivators.com/wp-content/uploads/original/2011_03/a-place-of-worship.jpg
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
Texas is going broke..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
What's Texas got to do with this topic?


Back on the subject.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/254995/another-slaughtered-and-no-one-cares

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/254937/man-murdered-in-pattani

http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/04/22-detained-in-kurram-for-attacks-on-vans.html

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/14260-at-least-24-dead-as-red-cross-chief-starts-syria-mission

http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/04/pakistani-tribal-elders-in-talks-with-taliban-to-free-abductees.html

http://news.yahoo.com/jordan-woman-killed-hospital-over-pregnancy-004531381.html

Monday's mayhem brought to you by the "religion of peas"
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 6, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
couldn't have said it better, myself:

http://www.slate.com/id/2303013/pagenum/all/
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 6, 2011 - 02:16pm PT

Texas is going broke
ahad aham

Trad climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yp9AUKL1Tk&feature=player_embedded
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/6550297
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
apparently, palestinians aspire to apartheid:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/palestinian-ambassador-wont-say-if-homosexuals-would-be-tolerated-palestinian-state_593488.html
ahad aham

Trad climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 07:24am PT
what congress is this?



http://www.thebrooklynpolitics.com/post/10186455941/subtle-stage-prop-of-the-day







couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 14, 2011 - 10:34am PT
ahad aham
what congress is this?

It's not a congress ahad. That is New York congressional district that is 40% jewish, and overwhelmingly democrat. Those are the congressman's constituents and who he represents. They chose a Republican Catholic over a Democratic jew, because they reported disliked the current administrations economic policies. Muslims, although much less in numbers than jews in this country, have the same gig going in spots. So same congress as this, just a different district:


(Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison (D-MN))
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 14, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Uhhh, no, it appears that they were focused on the economy Jeff. Of course, the news stories have been wrong before:-) It's possible that the "Obama tax cuts for the rich" (formerly known as the Bush Tax cuts for the rich but extended by the democratically controlled Senate, House and President) may play a part as well.

We need to balance the budget and our trade imbalance. Bush couldn't be elected dogcatcher with those tired upside-down lets all dig a hole to hell for the country economic policy's now, and Obama will not either unless he changes his tune. They both took us down into a rat hole.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
couch,
I don't believe being Jewish necessarily = allegiance to the flag of a foreign state. Do you?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 14, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
couch,
I don't believe being Jewish necessarily = allegiance to the flag of a foreign state. Do you?

No I don't Ahad, but in your link, you have a picture of a catholic, Bob Turner, with a Israeli flag. So maybe that word "allegiance" is not a good term for what you might think you are seeing in the link?

Not sure what your background is, but as long as we are on the subject, are not the followers of Mohammed often ready to rip each other apart? Specifically thinking of Shi'ite Iran vs Wahhabi Sunni Saudi Arabia. Did not the Saudis massacre most of the town of Faluja years back because they were apostates and idolators: thus lower than Jews in their eyes?
ahad aham

Trad climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
couch,
turner's religion is not the issue here. this is a u.s. congressional election. wtf is the flag of a foreign state doing up there? of course, i know the answer to that question. both candidates bent over backwards for that vote. but it's not only these 2 clowns. last month during congressional recess 81 congressmen, both dems and repubs enjoyed an all expense paid junket to israel courtesy of the educational arm of aipac. that's rougly one fifth of the entire us congress! could not there be more pressing issues here at home to work out? yeah, and next break another group will go, and so on. this allegiance brought us 911, iraq, and afganastan. breaking the bank. what will you say when the flag of china is propped up there?
dirtbag

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
There is no C of C.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 17, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
Today's clash

http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20110917-299907.html

Four dead in Thai bombing

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:24am PT
Today's clash

http://tribune.com.pk/story/254618/acid-attacks-7-women-burned-in-two-days/

“Both boys go to the same college as me and they were heckling me for not wearing a dupatta on my head. They tried to grab me and when I yelled at them they attacked me with acid,” Tayyiba told police officials before being admitted to the hospital. “She said that both men had said she ‘deserved for her face to be ruined because she had not covered her head’,”
.......................

All the burnt victims have been admitted to the Gojra Civil Hospital and are reportedly in serious condition. Three of the victims have sustained over 80 percent burns and are in critical condition.

“Three women are in critical condition and their faces have been completely burnt but the others are in recovery and have been admitted to the burns unit,”
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
perhaps "clash of civilizations" is a misnomer since only one side has behaved in a "civilized" manner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
Don't be listening to that dirty music now!



http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C09%5C20%5Cstory_20-9-2011_pg1_2
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
Radio contest for kids

http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2011/09/19/radio_somali_kids_win_weapons_in_quran_contest/

third prize got two bombs.

I guess you don't want to come in third, what's the second one for?

Those young kids!

They blow up so fast.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Sep 21, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
458 BC
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 21, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
Thought I would start a new thread as military action against Iran is imminent, Sep 30, 2009



President Obama has about eight weeks to get Iran to stop all development or Israel will strike. Oct 1, 2009







So says SuperT's local political zealot idealogue minister of misinformation and propaganda.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 21, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
The postman never gets to ring.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/257661/postman-wounded-in-pattani
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 22, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
israel put the u.s. on the spot? actually, the blame falls squarely on barry's shoulders, but we all know the buck never stops there


to all you libs who castigate israel for refusing right-of-return for palestinian refugees:


"Palestinian refugees will not become citizens of a new Palestinian state, according to Palestine's ambassador to Lebanon.

From behind a desk topped by a miniature model of Palestine's hoped-for blue United Nations chair, Ambassador Abdullah Abdullah spoke to The Daily Star Wednesday about Palestine's upcoming bid for U.N. statehood.

The ambassador unequivocally says that Palestinian refugees would not become citizens of the sought for U.N.-recognized Palestinian state, an issue that has been much discussed. "They are Palestinians, that's their identity," he says. "But . . . they are not automatically citizens."

This would not only apply to refugees in countries such as Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan or the other 132 countries where Abdullah says Palestinians reside. Abdullah said that "even Palestinian refugees who are living in [refugee camps] inside the [Palestinian] state, they are still refugees. They will not be considered citizens."


sooooo, even the palestinians don't want the palestinians to return
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 22, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
elie weisel:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8-t1osa5H8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBRs0Coy2rI
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 22, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
It's the OCCUPATION stupid!


http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/its-occupation-stupid
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 22, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
Oh,

Like the occupation in Thailand where islamofacists kill or maim around one person every day.

Or Pakistan where they blow up those from the wrong sect weekly.

Or the thousands of women that are murdered or maimed for "honor" all over the Islamic world.

Or, northern Africa where the slaughter continues every day.

Hitler tried to carefully hide the final solution from the German people. He knew they were to civilized to accept it.

Every day the media of the Islamic world proclaims the same goals and nobody objects.

It's the clash of civilization and barbarity.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 23, 2011 - 11:32pm PT


Printer Friendly

September 22, 2011
The Real Iran
by Raymond Ibrahim
Hudson New York

In a globalized world where debate and diplomacy predominate, there is one sure way to discern the sincerity of any particular government: see how it behaves at home, where it is in power; see especially how it treats its minorities.

Consider the government of Iran. Gearing up for the Durban III Conference, supposedly against racism, scheduled to take place in New York City this week. Tehran and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad no doubt plan on complaining to the international community about Israel as in former conferences — portraying the Jewish state as "the most cruel and repressive racist regime," a "barbaric" government that engages in "inhuman policies" against the Palestinians.

Yet what sort of government runs Iran — that is, how do Ahmadinejad and the mullahs behave on their own turf, where they are in control? One need only look to Iran's daily domestic affairs to get a clear idea of what "barbaric," "cruel," and "inhuman policies" are truly like.

In the last few days alone, officials launched a Bible burning campaign, confiscating and destroying some 7,000 Bibles, many publicly burned, even as the mainstream media, which provided round-the-clock coverage on Terry Jones — one nonofficial American who destroyed one Koran — ignores a government's mass Bible bonfires. Likening its tiny Christian minority to the "Taliban and parasites," the regime is also in the process of "cracking down" on Christians, who make up less than 1% of the entire population.

The West's endless supply of apologists — the sort who think it makes them appear "sophisticated" and "enlightened" to be tolerant of anything, so long as it doesn't directly affect them — will likely argue that the Bible is just a book. As for "cracking down" on Christians, "Who knows," these dedicated relativists will probably argue, "maybe Iran's beleaguered Christian minority is just as bad as the Taliban?"

Here, then, is an indefensible example of Iran's blatant savagery — proof that it should not cast stones until it joins the concert of civilized nations. According to Compass Direct News:

A pastor in Iran found guilty of leaving Islam awaits the outcome of a judicial investigation into his spiritual background to see if he will be executed or, if possible, forced to become a Muslim... The court-ordered investigation will take place sometime this fall to determine whether Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani, 34, was a Muslim as a teenager before he became a Christian at 19.

Last year the pastor was sentenced by a regional court to death by hanging for "convert[ing] to Christianity" and "encourag[ing] other Muslims to convert to Christianity." After his lawyer argued that he "had never actually been a Muslim and therefore could not be found guilty of abandoning the religion," the court, while continuing to uphold the death penalty, ordered an "investigation." Yet the burden of proof is on the victim: he must "prove that from puberty (15 years) to 19 he was not Muslim" — by getting acquaintances, relatives, local elders, and Muslims to vouch for him.

However, "if it can be proved that he was a practicing Muslim as an adult and [he] has not repented [i.e. returned to Islam], the execution will be carried out." Moreover, "even if the investigation releases him from the charge of apostasy, it is likely the charge of evangelizing Muslims will still carry a lengthy prison sentence, sources said."

In other words, while imprisoning and executing people simply because they want to live according to their conscience — a most basic human right — Iran complains to the world that Israel is "barbaric," "cruel," and "inhuman."

But there is no contradiction; both slandering Israel and murdering Christians are perfectly consistent. In each case, Iran seeks the destruction of the "other" — whether Christian or Jew. At home in Iran, where it is in power, it destroys its Christian minority with impunity, in front of the whole world; on the international stage, where it is currently weak, it seeks to destroy Israel by exploiting the West's lofty language and acting "outraged."

Worst of all, this affair does not merely expose Iran's hypocrisy; it exposes the United Nation's utopist foolishness. By allowing heads of the most notorious human rights abusing states, such as Iran and genocidal Sudan, to attend conferences that supposedly deal with "racism" and "human rights," the UN actually exposes itself as a facilitator of human rights abuses.

©2011 Raymond Ibrahim
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 25, 2011 - 08:54am PT
Those Blasphemous kids!

http://tribune.com.pk/story/259907/girl-accused-of-blasphemy-for-a-spelling-error/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 25, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
Pakistan is in a death spiral to a failed state..

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta2/tft/article.php?issue=20110923&page=1

The dangerous question is;

Who ends up with the nukes?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 25, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
Today's Thai toll


http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/258152/sungai-kolok-blasts-claim-sixth-victim-as-reporter-dies
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 28, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
More luv from the religion of peas.

An Iranian pastor who has refused to renounce his Christian faith faces execution as early as Wednesday after his sentence was upheld by an Iranian court.



http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/09/28/iranian-pastor-faces-execution-for-refusing-to-recant-christian-faith/
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
Why we need military spending??? Because we have enemies:

OMG.. we have enemies????? Holy sh#t..

Hey everyone!!!! Did you know we have enemies???? HOly sh#t... Maybe the mighty republicans will protect us.

No.. wait. their polices make even more enemies. doh!

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 29, 2011 - 11:38am PT
Today's toy bomb tale from Pak.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/28/toy-bomb-kills-man-grandson-in-buner.html

And not a Joo for a thousand miles.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 29, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
Only in St louis



One Iraqi immigrant living in St. Louis, Missouri might have learned the hard way what happens to Muslims who publicly support Israel and the Jewish people, when he allegedly suffered a heinous attack in August — where, in addition to being stabbed and held at gunpoint, assailants carved a Star of David into his back.



According to Mr. Alsaegh, as he was driving at 10:30 in the morning on Compton St. near Park Ave., a small white car cut him off and hit his car, while another car stopped behind him. The occupants of the cars, some of whom wore security guard-type uniforms, quickly entered Alsaegh’s car, pointing a gun at him. They pushed his upper body down against the steering wheel, stabbed him and pulled off his shirt to expose his back. Then, with a knife, they carved the Star of David on his back while laughing as they recited his pro-Jewish poem. Mr. Alsaegh believes that the attackers could be Somalis, but he was not sure. After the attackers fled the scene, Mr. Alsaegh was surrounded by witnesses to the crime and was taken to the hospital. The photo representing this story was taken at the hospital.

dirtbag

climber
Sep 29, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
Neocons are
Circle jerkin
By and by, lord by and by
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 29, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
Don't know about any neocons dirtbag, but it looks like they will hang the pastor for being a Christian sometime next week. Iranian justice is swift, unlike here. And unlike our courts which are always screwing it up, their religious courts are infallible, so once they find out you are like, gay, or had decided to be a Christian instead of Muslim, you swing in about a week. Maybe you can sing a death song for the pastor.

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=900&q=iranian+hanging+pictures&gbv=2&oq=iranian+hanging&aq=3S&aqi=g1g-S3g-mS1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=1577l3974l0l7658l15l13l0l1l1l0l239l2218l0.7.5l12l0

Also unlike here, merely speaking up negatively against the existing rulers can get you to swinging. http://warintel.blogspot.com/2009/05/iranian-students-deify-and-denounce.html



dirtbag

climber
Sep 29, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
Sad, but there is no C of C: the notion of a C of C is a big neocon jerkoff.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 29, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
Tell that to the thousands of victims of the religion of peas in places that have never been trod by Neocon or Joo.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 29, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed because of the neocon war masturbatory fantasy.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
Dirtbag,
How do you explain that it was a good ol' boy Democrat who got us into this
whole mess of Afghanistan? Without Charlie Wilson's messianic meddling the
Soviets would have had their way and then left the place to lapse back into
their eternal inter-tribal warfare.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 29, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
I think our involvement in Afghanistan was justified, but it's not some part of a larger C of C delusional bullsh#t that got us into Iraq and if Fatty had his way, would get us into Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 30, 2011 - 10:42am PT
the palestinian delusion laid bare...with the bare facts:


September 30, 2011 12:00 A.M.

Land Without Peace
Why Abbas went to the U.N.


While diplomatically inconvenient for the Western powers, Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas’s attempt to get the U.N. to unilaterally declare a Palestinian state has elicited widespread sympathy. After all, what choice did he have? According to the accepted narrative, Middle East peace is made impossible by a hard-line Likud-led Israel that refuses to accept a Palestinian state and continues to build settlements.

It is remarkable how this gross inversion of the truth has become conventional wisdom. In fact, Benjamin Netanyahu brought his Likud-led coalition to open recognition of a Palestinian state, thereby creating Israel’s first national consensus for a two-state solution. He is also the only prime minister to agree to a settlement freeze — ten months — something no Labor or Kadima government has ever done.

To which Abbas responded by boycotting the talks for nine months, showing up in the tenth, then walking out when the freeze expired. Last week he reiterated that he will continue to boycott peace talks unless Israel gives up — in advance — claim to any territory beyond the 1967 lines. Meaning, for example, that the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem is Palestinian territory. This is not just absurd. It violates every prior peace agreement. They all stipulate that such demands are to be the subject of negotiations, not their precondition.

Abbas unwaveringly insists on the so-called “right of return,” which would demographically destroy Israel by swamping it with millions of Arabs, thereby turning the world’s only Jewish state into the world’s 23rd Arab state. And he has repeatedly declared, as recently as last week in New York: “We shall not recognize a Jewish state.”

Nor is this new. It is perfectly consistent with the long history of Palestinian rejectionism. Consider:

Camp David, 2000. At a U.S.-sponsored summit, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offers Yasser Arafat a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza — and, astonishingly, the previously inconceivable division of Jerusalem. Arafat refuses — and makes no counteroffer, thereby demonstrating his unseriousness about making any deal. Instead, within two months, he launches a savage terror war that kills 1,000 Israelis.

Taba, 2001. An even sweeter deal — the Clinton Parameters — is offered. Arafat walks away again.

Israel, 2008. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert makes the ultimate capitulation to Palestinian demands: 100 percent of the West Bank (with land swaps), Palestinian statehood, the division of Jerusalem with the Muslim parts becoming the capital of the new Palestine. And incredibly, he offers to turn over the city’s holy places, including the Western Wall — Judaism’s most sacred site, its Kaaba — to an international body on which sit Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Did Abbas accept? Of course not. If he had, the conflict would be over and Palestine would already be a member of the United Nations.

This is not ancient history. All three peace talks occurred over the past decade. And every one completely contradicts the current mindless narrative of Israeli “intransigence” as the obstacle to peace.

Settlements? Every settlement remaining within the new Palestine would be destroyed and emptied, precisely as happened in Gaza.

So why did the Palestinians say no? Because saying yes would have required them to sign a final peace agreement that accepted a Jewish state on what they consider the Muslim patrimony.

The key word here is “final.” The Palestinians are quite prepared to sign interim agreements, like Oslo. Framework agreements, like Annapolis. Cease-fires, like the 1949 armistice. Anything but a final deal. Anything but a final peace. Anything but a treaty that ends the conflict once and for all — while leaving a Jewish state still standing.

After all, why did Abbas go to the U.N. last week? For nearly half a century, the United States has pursued a Middle East settlement on the basis of the formula of land for peace. Land for peace produced the Israel-Egypt peace of 1979 and the Israel-Jordan peace of 1994. Israel has offered the Palestinians land for peace three times since. And been refused every time.

Why? For exactly the same reason Abbas went to the U.N. last week: to get land without peace. Sovereignty with no reciprocal recognition of a Jewish state. Statehood without negotiations. An independent Palestine in a continued state of war with Israel.

This is the reason that, regardless of who is governing Israel, there has never been peace. Territorial disputes are solvable; existential conflicts are not.

Land for peace, yes. Land without peace is nothing but an invitation to suicide.

— Charles Krauthammer is a national syndicated columnist. © 2011, The Washington Post Writers Group.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 30, 2011 - 11:06am PT
I think our involvement in Afghanistan was justified, but it's not some part of a larger C of C delusional bullsh#t that got us into Iraq and if Fatty had his way, would get us into Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Our invasion of Iraq was crazy and wrong IMO, but I don't think Iran is the same deal. Are you suggesting we send over Neville Chamberlain to negotiate a settlement Dirtbag? There is a lot of crap happening on many levels, and no doubt from the Iranian view the US has some serious baggage. What would you recommend? That we walk away and let them build a bomb in peace? We have put sanctions on them, tried negotiations, and someone has been playing dirty pool for some time. (ie Stuxnet and murder of key scientists).

What are you suggesting?
ahad aham

Trad climber
Sep 30, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
"No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

so now we have the summary execution of a u.s. citizen without a trial. has there been any proof offered as to his involvement in the actually planning or carrying out of an attack?

obama is doing a fine job of shredding the constitution.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 30, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
"obama is doing a fine job of shredding the constitution"


i think this does unmask libs' moral vacuity...they condemn bush for going to war with iraq even though he had bipartisan congressional approval...barry didn't even ask before bombing libya

they condemn bush for "war crimes" that barry has continued and extended; at the very least, barry has executed an american citizen without a trial

bush NEVER called for the assassination of an american citizen; barry has, apparently, carried out two such assassinations

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:24am PT
In the upcoming Israeli US war with Iran, the US loses. There has been developments of weapons on both sides. Congress saw fit to publicly call the Navy on the carpet a couple years back for not developing an adequate defense to the supersonic missiles. The thinking was that the Searam wasn't able to counter the threats.

http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawesome.htm

I wonder what the middle east would look like for Israel with the US totally impotent?

survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
Iran will strictly be an over the horizon event.

Fatty only likes nice clean tidy wars. We don't even have to see all the dead and maimed innocent Iranian women and children. Some of the most educated, cultured people on that side of the world.

KILL!

MAIM!!

OVER THE HORIZON!!

GO TEAM GO!!

KILL!

MAIM!!

OVER THE HORIZON!!

Fattrad, booky and TGT are Israeli running dog lackeys.
Crawley bumlickers.....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Thai toll for the month.

From Asia One, Singapore.

Prince of Songkhla University's Deep South Watch reported yesterday that 51 people were killed and 157 wounded in 67 violent incidents in Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat in September.

The news came as a Narathiwat village headman and a Pattani truck driver were killed in separate incidents yesterday.

In Narathiwat's Chanae district, Ban Irzo headman Waepayunan Sideh, 50, was shot dead at around 11am while getting out of his pick-up truck to inspect the progress of construction of a mosque in Ban Ipea-sae. Witnesses told police a gunman riding pillion on a motorcycle shot at Waepayunan three times with a pistol before fleeing. Police suspected it was the work of insurgents, as the victim had helped authorities.

In Pattani's Khok Pho district, truck driver Pisut Boonnap, 61, was shot dead by two men on a motorcycle at about 8am while driving his motorcycle to a teashop along Chonprathan Rd.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
More Neo-Con twaddle.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
Good thing we helped get rid of Mubarrak, now the Christian Copts in Egypt can burn freely.

Allan Snackbar!!! The religion of peace and tolerance.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
^^^ More Neo-Con twaddle. ^^^
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
I can't wait to hear Amaninadinnajaket's spin on this.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 12, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
http://twitter.com/#!/PruPaine/status/124219993897451520

Breaking, all 100 senators called to intelligence committee briefing.


http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=331504&D=2011-10-12&SO=&HC=1

Hasn't hit Drudge yet, but the back story has.

http://www.drudgereport.com/
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Yeah, I agree, according to this new information, it does seem that Obama might take the hook...





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48rz8udZBmQ





But then again....


Trolls vary in mass




http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=dyMXYE_50Ts







Fattrad, on a zero news day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9qiZrJaLRs&NR=1


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-national/muslim-attacks-atheist-at-halloween-parade-video

Poor taste, yes.

But, there weren't any Catholics attacking the zombie pope either.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 13, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-tells-egyptian-leader-assistance-in-shalit-deal-warms-the-hearts-of-all-israelis-1.389751

Netanyahu tells Egyptian leader assistance in Shalit deal 'warms the hearts of all Israelis'

Fats, yer gettin yer boy back is yer heart warmed?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 13, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/201110610189764209.html

Declaration of a Bantustan in Palestine
If the PLO's UN statehood bid succeeds, it will lead to increased Israeli control, not real independence.

Forget about the fact that Israel has as many as 573 permanent barriers and checkpoints around the occupied West Bank, as well as an additional 69 "flying" checkpoints; and you might also want to ignore the fact that the existing "Jewish-only" colonies have annexed more than 54 per cent of the West Bank.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 13, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Why?
Because, in your Machiavellian mind set, "Might make Right"?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 14, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
“Unbelievable at how foolish some of you ST'ers are: “

Not once have I ever seen you come up with an intelligent analysis of a situation? One of the reasons I do not even respond anymore but this one have to:

Best one is your Mossad connections. As for Sheriff, think you worked at the desk answering phones and getting coffee for the real crew.

Before you post do some homework or wait till the dust settles.

NYT times, CNN [your favorite source] and many doubt or have skepticism since there are inconsistencies with this plot.

I never heard of a Muslim Mexican Drug Cartel.

Who is the fool, it looks like you: an ardent enthusiast who cannot resist an opportunity to indulge an enthusiasm.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 14, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
Gotta love this gal;
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/ann-barnhardt.htm

Jihad can go both ways....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 14, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Because it is the fairest solution for Israelis and Palestinians.
Not hardly!


I will celebrate the nation of Palestine.......

Not likely


on the other side of the fence.
Why didn't they call it the Berlin FENCE?
Because, like the land grabbing construction project in Palestine, IT"S A WALL!!!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 14, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
Yeah, and I really want to have Hamas as my neighbor. The Palestinians
sooo deserve better leadership.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 14, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
Today's Thai toll.

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=737382&publicationSubCategoryId=200

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/A-defence-volunteer-gunned-down-in-Narathiwat-30167678.html

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/security/260951/villager-murdered-in-yala

And not a Joo within a thousand miles

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 14, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
Besides the prominent one between his ears, does TGT have a point?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 14, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
And you don't have enough between yours to perceive the obvious.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 14, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
The obvious is that you are trying to broadwash all Muslims as murdering terrorists and all Joos as innocent victims.


The reality is that the Geo-Political conditions and considerations concerning Thailand are not a parallel to the Middle East nor anywhere else.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 14, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
well, then there's

Pakistan

Sudan

Egypt

Iran

Iraq

Even, Kansas City.

Islam is a violent political system masquerading as religion.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 14, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
Most religions, including Christianity, are masquerading political systems that inherently use violence to maintain control.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 15, 2011 - 12:45am PT
"amen"
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 15, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
really philo? do you include buddhism in that assertion? if not, explain how the dalai lama's role as the head of state of tibet doesn't count


fattrad, here's why i'm confident we (and israel) will win the clash:

http://actofvalor.com/

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 15, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
Wow another nut that basis his world view through the lens of a Hollywood camera


And by the way Most does not equate to All.
Though I do consider Christianity, both historically and currently, to be the most violent.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 15, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
Christianity is the most violent? We, as a nation don't target or kill in name of our religion. It's based on our interpretation of Natural Law. Justice.

Are there other more violent religions that vocally kill in the name of their prophet or religion?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Social climber
Retired to Appalachia
Oct 15, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
We, as a nation don't target or kill in name of our religion. It's based on our interpretation of Natural Law. Justice.

Are there other more violent religions that vocally kill in the name of their prophet or religion?


YGBSM. Bluering, you must have been smoking dope during history class. Or perhaps you got the Evangelical version of world history that forgot to include any meaningful discussion of any other cultures and religions. Oh, yeah, except those religions that "persecuted" Christians.

Christians have been slaughtering non-Christians for 2,000 years. History is overflowing with the misery and pain of the Christian legacy. The examples are too numerous to list. Fortunately, the Christians were kind enough to "save" the souls of the doomed just before they slaughtered them. All in the name of Jesus Christ Almighty.

Spend a little time studying the history of indigenous peoples around the world, and you'll find a Christian history of contempt, mistreatment and massacre.

In modern times, Christians in the U.S.A. don't slaughter people anymore. But Christians remain unkind, unloving, intolerant, bigoted, unforgivng and hippocritical. Let's not even get into child molestation. The psychological trauma perpetrated by Christians today is disastrous.

In short, Christians throughout history have hopelessly perverted the Bible in the name of their own perverted goals. Jesus in the New Testament seems to be a kind, loving father figure, nothing at all like any Christian that I have met.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 15, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
But Christians remain unkind, unloving, intolerant, bigoted, unforgivng and hippocritical


I guess you don't know any.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 16, 2011 - 02:18am PT
What is this Team America of which you speak?
I thought Romo & the Cowboys sukd this year.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 16, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
Christianity is the most violent?

Care to guess whether more christians or muslims have died at the hands of the other in the last ten years?
112,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since 2003. Vast numbers of them directly at the hands of christians.

Kinda makes the world trade centers look like small taters dontchathink?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Oct 16, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
If Islam is attempting to spread it's 'religion' by the sword how is that any different from trying to spread the 'religion' of democracy by killing 100,000 in one country alone?



It isn't.






The US wasn't trying to spread democracy anyway. Just like it wasn't gettting weapons of mass destruction. We all know what they are doing. It doesn't justify the deeds.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Oct 16, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
fattrad,

They said that if the US tried to assassinate their Obama, that they would retaliate. Right?





Would you say that would be a fair statement for the US to issue as well? If someone tried to take out the POTUS that there would be retaliation?




If the US told Algeria that if Algeria tried to take out the POTUS, would that give Algeria just cause to start a war with the US?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Social climber
Retired to Appalachia
Oct 17, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Care to guess whether more christians or muslims have died at the hands of the other in the last ten years?
112,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since 2003. Vast numbers of them directly at the hands of christians.

Kinda makes the world trade centers look like small taters dontchathink?


Hee-hee

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 17, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
It seems very likely that the so-called plot to murder the Saudi ambassador to the United States was the work of a few mid-level mischief makers in the revolutionary guard, and that the Iranian government did not know of or approve it. The US is once over-reacting; it would have been much more productive to under-react, and so encourage the strong element in Iran which wants a saner government, and to restore relations with the west. The supposed plot may in fact have simply been a move of desperation by a minority, to disrupt that.

There don't seem to be many credible intelligence or government sources that think the Iranian government itself would attempt assassination in the US, or if it did that it would do so in such an incompetent manner.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 18, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
israel gives 1,000 palestinian prisoners in exchange for 1 israeli prisoner...that's typical for "compromise" in the me


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/palestinian-envoy-is-asked-to-leave-ottawa-after-controversial-tweet/article2204367/
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Fatty:
Ask me a question [which I doubt]: Why would a top official from the Iranian government ask one of their own to go to a non-Muslim country and ask a drug cartel knowing somebody they never knew or met, just some Joe-Bag-a Doughnuts on the street or in a hotel to blow up Washington. That is just one ??????. Knowing if they did blow that the US would have retaliated.

The Mexican Drug Cartel would have something to negotiate with this info and looks like they did.

Of course reason you do not want to read other side of this issue or respond is you want Iran off the earth. Happy to see we have real people that know and prevent such things.

Stay tuned. Waterboard the guy would not be surprised he says Israel backing and funding.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 18, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
It is a strange plot, but that's what has been uncovered so far.

Yeah, we need to know how Mossad is involved.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 20, 2011 - 08:56am PT
and the libs will still insist that the palestinians are the victims:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8836933/Gilad-Shalit-release-freed-Palestinian-prisoner-vows-to-sacrifice-her-life.html
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 20, 2011 - 10:13am PT
Of Course truth won't keep the zionist from turning Shalit into a victim of propaganda.
Maybe instead of going right back to tanking over innocent Palestinian families and their homes
He will have the matzos to tell the truth



Published 12:42 20.10.11Latest update 12:42 20.10.11
Shalit's captors: He wasn't tortured, he received medical care and watched TV
Zuhair Al-Qaisi, leader of the Palestinian group that abducted Gilad Shalit, reveals details about Shalit's imprisonment to London newspaper Al-Hayat.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/shalit-prisoner-swap/shalit-s-captors-he-wasn-t-tortured-he-received-medical-care-and-watched-tv-1.391072

"He had access to radio and television. We took care of him, his physical and mental health. He was not given over to any emotional or physical torture. He was lightly injured in the course of his capture, and he received the necessary medical care and completely healed," said Al-Qaisi.


I don't believe all of the released Palestinian prisoners can say the same. They of course were all held at Jewish only country clubs built on their ancestral land.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 20, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
The Palestinians have just shown the entire world their collective values — and the result is creepy beyond belief. Every once in a while a single incident crystallizes almost everything — all the cry-of-the-heart moral equivalence, all the special pleading, all the revisionism, all the national-liberationist cant. The crude and coerced Egyptian interview of Gilad Shalit says it all. He looked emaciated and short of breath, like the old film clips of those who had just emerged from Dachau; his Egyptian inquisitor, the repulsive Shahira Amin (lately a heartthrob of the Western media, who drew praise in the past from Secretary Clinton), preened like some sort of Lady Haw-Haw reading a script from Goebbels’s Ministry of Propaganda — with a masked Hamas thug in the background, rounding out the cast, perfectly playing the part of a cowardly killer from the SS Einsatzgruppen.

As if a chorus on cue, the released killers immediately boasted that they would murder again. Then, there was the vow to kidnap more soldiers, the anger that the 1,000-to-1 ratio of exchange was not enough, the usual anti-Semitic Hitlerian communiqués boasting of “victory” over the “apes and pigs,” and the mass deification on the West Bank of freed mass killers who looked far better than did Shalit. So all that raises a question in this supposed morally equivalent conflict: Why in the world are we giving one cent in foreign aid to Palestinian groups of any sort? The entire sordid spectacle of the Shalit interview was one of the more repulsive video moments in memory — right up there with the Palestinian street’s cheering on news of 3,000 Americans murdered on 9/11. No other supposedly aggrieved clique has such a talent in moments of its jubilation and exultation for reminding the world why so many can find it so utterly repellent.

On a final practical note: Be careful for what you wish. Now the Palestinian community will at long last have their bombers in their midst and must live with the retaliatory consequences when their heroes go back to what they habitually do.

©2011 Victor Davis Hanson
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 20, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
What a sack of lies TGT. Are you whoring for profit or is a lifetime supply of Mogan David sufficient.




In fact I will go so far as to say that there is not one truth in that whole crap pile of propaganda.
But don't let that stop you from reposting the same lies ad nauseam.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 21, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15410154

Barack Obama: All US troops to leave Iraq in 2011


Gee I can't wait to hear how right wing nut spinazis like Limbaugh and FuX news present this as Obama being weak on foreign affairs..

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 22, 2011 - 10:47am PT
Fats what's wrong? Things not going your way? Obama not failing like you wanted? You seem desperate.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Oct 22, 2011 - 10:54am PT
It's a nice October morning in 2011.

All over the world humans are fed up with the insane bullshit being fed to them by the power.

Labels of "liberal," "conservative," and the like are so tired. Part of the bullsh#t.

You can just be yourself without a label.

You don't have to carry the torch for something that happened before to someone else.

Go forth, be free, and be a friend to all.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 24, 2011 - 10:12am PT
From the "religion of peas" north of the border.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111020/shafia-montreal-family-murder-trial-kingston-111020/20111020/?hub=TorontoNewHome

Other conversations, secretly recorded by police, reveal that the girls’ father felt betrayed because his daughters had boyfriends, Crown attorney Laurie Lacelle said.

“Even if they hoist me up onto the gallows, nothing is more dear to me than my honour,” Shafia said, according to Lacelle…

Lacelle continued to quote Shafia: “There can be no treachery, no violation more than this … They committed treason from beginning to end. They betrayed humankind. They betrayed Islam…They betrayed everything.”

Shafia also told his wife: “God’s curse on them for generations. May the devil s— on their graves. Is that what a daughter should be? Would a daughter be such a whore?”









Todays Thai toll, seven dead

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hojt8bl7RXQhQByeVoDuASyKBDjw?docId=CNG.f2d52794fdaa772db549405357a24dd8.8e1

Nairobi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15425447

Gun sex gone wild in Gaza


http://tinyurl.com/695354f

From
http://www.pchrgaza.org/
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 25, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
Obama kix ass.

The liberal one.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 25, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/20111019112915255609.html

Aid to Israel no longer a sacred cow
America needs to re-evaluate its aid to Israel to deal with its own budget woes, says former AIPAC lobbyist.
MJ Rosenberg Last Modified: 22 Oct 2011 10:29

For the first time in memory, if not ever, a highly respected mainstream columnist is calling on the United States to cut aid to Israel.

Writing in the Washington Post, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter and columnist Walter Pincus, says, "it is time to examine the funding the United States provides to Israel".

Aid to Israel is virtually the only programme - domestic or foreign - that is exempt from every budget-cutting proposal pending in Congress. No matter that our own military is facing major cuts along with Medicare, cancer research and hundreds of other programmes, Israel's friends in Congress in both parties make sure that aid to Israel is protected at current levels.
Gary

climber
From the City That Dreams
Oct 25, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
Face it, fattrad, it takes a Democrat to wage war. Wilson kicked the Kaiser in the ass all the way to exile. FDR blasted Hitler, then hung Tojo. Obama is kicking Al Qaeda ass like there's no tomorrow.

War is too important to be left to some GOP boob.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 25, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
yep, Republicans are soft on terror


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
As Fattrad has quit posting updates, it appears that there is no more clash. It finally got resolved apparently. The Lion will lay down with the Lamb after all.

Who knew?






philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 28, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
The Arabs are idiots

Well Christ look who they are related to.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 28, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Excellent DrF.

Let me save time and thread space...
Fattrad thinks you are a fool.

Coming from Mr Always Wrong isn't that one of the best endorsements you can think of?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 28, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
No Numnut that was Runny & Spurious George not to mention "read my lips" Poppy.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 31, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Oh No' Fatty sure to be pissed now:

It's a start: "Palestinianc gains UNESCO membership".

What is your answer about Obama/US response since you love him so much. Fatty are you finally going to agree on something that the Pres. says.

And you said to MIghty Hiker,

So, it's ok if Jews and Christians are discriminated against by Muslims, but not the other way around??? and called him a Hypocrite.

You telling me that Jews and the Right Wing Christians do not discriminate or hate Muslims. Teach me, maybe I missed something in your message?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 31, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Just added some other comments above before you posted answer that one as well.

They still need to make Israel to make changes for your idea [House] to work.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 31, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/

Israel to reconsider cooperation with UNESCO after approval of Palestine membership
After UN cultural agency grants Palestinians full membership earlier Monday, Foreign Ministry issues statement that Israel rejects the decision.



DaftRat must be apoplectic with the UN vote.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 31, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-must-end-the-gaza-blockade-1.392890

Published 03:21 31.10.11Latest update 03:21 31.10.11
Israel must end the Gaza blockade
The blockade of Gaza and the boycott of Hamas, have not led to quiet for the inhabitants of the south. At the same time, the isolation of Gaza has augmented the international isolation of Israel and has contributed to a crisis in relations with Turkey.

Haaretz Editorial
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 31, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/20111019112915255609.html

Aid to Israel no longer a sacred cow
America needs to re-evaluate its aid to Israel to deal with its own budget woes, says former AIPAC lobbyist.
MJ Rosenberg Last Modified: 22 Oct 2011 10:29

For the first time in memory, if not ever, a highly respected mainstream columnist is calling on the United States to cut aid to Israel.

Writing in the Washington Post, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter and columnist Walter Pincus, says, "it is time to examine the funding the United States provides to Israel".

Aid to Israel is virtually the only programme - domestic or foreign - that is exempt from every budget-cutting proposal pending in Congress. No matter that our own military is facing major cuts along with Medicare, cancer research and hundreds of other programmes, Israel's friends in Congress in both parties make sure that aid to Israel is protected at current levels.


No Justification whatsoever!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 31, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Looking at the bright side, the Israeli government if not people has provided substantial assistance to Turkey since the major earthquake there a week ago, in the Lake Van area.

Abram and his sheepherders probably came from somewhere around there.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 31, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
As for no dough US has done it before and UNESCO survived. Wait till China pitch in and US say.

One reason republicans do not want/like UN since it has to with educate people and Rebulicans love/can’t dictate.

Oh! By the way

Israel’s Foreign Ministry and Deputy Prime Minister : Avigdor Lieberman: On 13 April 2011, the Israel’s State Prosecutor's Office announced that it had decided to charge Lieberman with fraud, money laundering, breach of trust and witness tampering.

Plus he is still in office.

Sound familiar Fatty, how come you never mention your country mishaps on your side of the fence than on the other.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Oct 31, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-B61_g8QkQ&feature=player_embedded
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 31, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/20111028113458951328.html

Opinion

It is now Palestine's time
The US has lost their right to lead in resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict, and it is time for the EU to step in.

Michel Rocard Last Modified: 31 Oct 2011 20:12

The Palestinians want an independent state, but on the condition that they secure Jerusalem as its capital, and that Israel ceases to expand settlements on territory that it has occupied since the 1967 Six-Day War. Israel, however, has never considered ceding Jerusalem to Palestine. Many hope that, under pressure to reform municipal boundaries, Israel will consider this solution.

Tragically, strong resistance from Israel and the Jewish diaspora has led Obama to acknowledge openly his powerlessness in the conflict, and thus to abandon US political pressure on Israel. As a result, a small group of pro-Israeli congressmen has been free to threaten and pressure those countries likely to vote for the recognition of the Palestinian state.

In any event, Israel's leaders are not actually interested in a realistic peace. Instead, they seem to want a solution reminiscent of nineteenth-century Ireland - which led to a century of casualties on both sides. Israel is effectively demanding the disappearance of Palestinian identity.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 1, 2011 - 08:32am PT
and unesco declared palestine a state one week AFTER their leader had this to say about israel:


http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5759.htm


what's did stalin call them...useful what? IDIOTS!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 1, 2011 - 10:05am PT
And your 'point" being? Besides the fatty one between your ears?

No where Other than in the fetid imaginations of very small minded peoples, does the universe demand acceptance of a "Jewish State" as a condition of acceptability and worthiness of any other peoples. Those of you condemning the Palestinians for there 60+ year struggle against invasion and occupation are classic anti-semites.

Seriously you putzs are all up in arms about Palestines's inclusion to UNESCO, to which I say "really" and BFD get over it. Do you even know what the ESCO part stands for?
United Nations EDUCATIONAL, SCIENTIFIC and CULTURAL ORGANIZATION.
Is your taught anti-semitism and learned hatred so great that you would deem it necessary to deprive Millions of Palestinians Education, Science, Culture and the RIGHT to RECOGNITION?

Did you prefer suicide bombers? And the 100 Arabs to 1 Jew death rate?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 1, 2011 - 10:27am PT
UNESCO mission statement;

UNESCO
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization

Org type Specialized Agency
Acronyms UNESCO
Head Irina Bokova
Director-General of UNESCO
Status Active
Established 16 November 1945[1]
Headquarters Paris, France
Website www.UNESCO.org
United Nations portal
The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO; pronounced /juːˈnɛskoʊ/) is a specialized agency of the United Nations. Its stated purpose is to contribute to peace and security by promoting international collaboration through education, science, and culture in order to further universal respect for justice, the rule of law, and the human rights along with fundamental freedoms proclaimed in the UN Charter.[1] It is the heir of the League of Nations' International Commission on Intellectual Cooperation.


Yeah I can see how you would think that Palestinian acceptance and inclusion in UNESCO would be a direct threat to the future existence of Israel. It is really so obviously a cleaver cover of the plan to exterminate all jews.

Or is it that it is headquartered in Paris France that lights your knotted panties on fire?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 1, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
Well then neither will the Jews.
The suffering of stalemate will continue and that is a lose/lose paradigm.

Lose/lose except for the human paraquat that profits off the continuation of this misery.
How's the Dead Children Futures Market Fatty? Now there is one I wouldn't mind if you sold short.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 1, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said at an Israel Beiteinu faction meeting on Monday that Israel will not make any additional compromises or concessions to the Palestinians in peace talks “The ball is in the Palestinians’ court,” he quipped.

Source: Jerusalem Post Tues Nov. 1st 2011

JERUSALEM (Reuters) – Israel's attorney-general on Wednesday informed Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman he faced criminal corruption charges, Israel's Channel Two said. [old story April of this year]

Lieberman, a senior partner in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's conservative coalition government, had been under investigation on suspicion of money laundering, bribery and breach of trust. He denies wrongdoing but could resign once formally indicted.

Copyright 2011 Thomson Reuters

International reports have indicated that Israel ranks second, just behind Italy, in official corruption among developed nations. I wonder whether Italy has been shortchanged.

It seems to me that former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and former Israeli president Ezer Weisman are only the most conspicuous Israeli officials suspected of corruption. Prima facie evidence indicates that three other prime ministers and two other presidents of Israel may merit that obloquy—which is surely the case of a several Israeli cabinet ministers in the recent past.

Apart from personal character flaws, is there something about Israel’s system of government that conduces to corruption? Absolutely!

Source: By Prof. Paul Eidelberg

Foundation for Constitutional Democracy

He's not alone ... In June former finance minister Avraham Hirchson was jailed for five years and five months for corruption dating from when he was a union leader. Ariel Sharon another.

And the US says no to the vote: I guess corruption follows corruption or as one state official said when I asked what the difference is; he said when in doubt use the words “negotiate” instead. But again who does?

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 2, 2011 - 09:13am PT
"Yeah I can see how you would think that Palestinian acceptance and inclusion in UNESCO would be a direct threat to the future existence of Israel. It is really so obviously a cleaver cover of the plan to exterminate all jews.

Or is it that it is headquartered in Paris France that lights your knotted panties on fire?"


i don't know why barry cut off funding to unesco (about 1/3 of their total budget) in response to unesco's move, philo
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 2, 2011 - 09:15am PT
clash? what clash? they're just like us:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcVOqUjKlM46gHhMf_IZ1lj72X0A?docId=6bb5f261755e46728210f4a9308413e7


move along...nothing to see here...
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 2, 2011 - 10:45am PT
i don't know why barry cut off funding to unesco (about 1/3 of their total budget) in response to unesco's move, philo

This speaks volumes to your arrogance and ignorance......
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2011 - 11:55am PT
Isn't it UNESCO that kicked out the US, for failing to pay agreed-on membership dues? Not the first time, either - the American deadbeats were kicked out once before.

Oh well, they may have taken their ball and bat and gone off in a huff, but they'll be back.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
Only because it's such a long swim to America.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Face it, the leaders of Islam, both political and religious have their heads up their asses. They want to live in the 13th century and treating it's women, animals, gays and children like crap.
Is that the best YOU can do. What a blatantly lying sack of barfings you present. Your Zionist AIPAC approved opinion is not truth or fact. Just propaganda and spin.


And the Palestinians are #1 on the as#@&%e list.
This has been your hateful attitude all along even when you pay false lip service to the humanty of the 'other' Semites. No more hiding behind lies and platitudes Jeff. Clearly You like most "Zionists" believe the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian. How else can you eexplain your blood lust zeal whenever they are killed.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2011 - 01:25pm PT

Evil must be eliminated
.

You are absolutely correct!
So...
END OCCUPATION!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 2, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
The Iranians will be overjoyed about that Fatty.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 2, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
Face it, the leaders of Islam, both political and religious have their heads up their asses.

Jeff, you and the Islamists have quite a bit in common, smelling sh#t all day long...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
I hope the Palestinian people have rich and fulfilling lives in the country of Palestine,
Too late to recant Jeff your true beliefs are known now. The only Good Palestinian is a DEAD Palestinian, right CaptainZion?


located on the other side of the current fence.
"Current fence"? That is mighty committal for an Occupationist.
Didn't you really mean "on the other side of the WALL where ever we shall build it"?

Are you willing, here and now, to accept, and state that you do so unequivocally, that the borders of a two state solution should bee where the "Current Fence" is NOW?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
Barf from DaftRat.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
Israeli defense officials say the military has successfully test-fired an advanced missile in an exercise that had been planned long ago.

More silly sabre-rattling. It is hardly news that Israel has advanced ballistic missile capability, up to and including launching numerous satellites over the last 20+ years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Space_Agency Nor is it any surprise that Israel has nuclear weapons, probably between 50 and 200, some of them mounted on IRBMs.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
I hope the Palestinian people have rich and fulfilling lives in the country of Palestine,
Too late to recant Jeff your true beliefs are known now. The only Good Palestinian is a DEAD Palestinian, right CaptainZion?


located on the other side of the current fence.
"Current fence"? That is mighty committal for an Occupationist.
Didn't you really mean "on the other side of the WALL where ever we shall build it"?

Are you willing, here and now, to accept, and state that you do so unequivocally, that the borders of a two state solution should be where the "Current Fence" is NOW?

What gives DaftRat you have not answered this simple question are you afraid to tell the truth?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 2, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
Two things Fatty, the UAE does not recognize Israel as a state, and the two countries do not have diplomatic relations plus Erik Prince doesn’t like the Jewish Faith as well. HHHmmmm wonder what his team will do when push comes to shove.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 3, 2011 - 07:06am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:


http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/11/02/firebombed-french-paper-a-victim-of-islamistsor-its-own-obnoxious-islamophobia/


don't worry, fattrad, we'll win the clash despite lib efforts to surrender
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 3, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
philo, how can you tolerate another four years of this warmonger:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/02/uk-military-iran-attack-nuclear
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 3, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
^^^^ Fat's that is an unsubstantiated opinion ^^^^^

Here is another.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-led-by-a-right-wing-myopic-government-1.393406
Published 02:14 03.11.11Latest update 02:14 03.11.11

Israel led by a right-wing, myopic government
If Israel had a sober and responsible, peace-seeking leadership, it would welcome the PA's membership in UNESCO and even its upgraded status in the United Nations.
Haaretz Editorial
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 3, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
Here is the HUMAN face of the Palestinian struggle against the illegal and brutal OCCUPATION imposed by Israel.


http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/witness/2011/05/201151271933214429.html


In March 2003, 12-year-old Hoda Darwish was sitting at her desk in a UN elementary school in Khan Younis on the Gaza Strip when an Israeli high-velocity bullet was fired through her classroom window. It hit Hoda in the head. The doctors at the hospital said that she would never awaken from her coma.


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 3, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Dude your logic is as twisted as your thong.

You know what else happened over there in March of 2003?

Yep you avoided it... Bulldozing Jew Murders unarmed American peace activist.


http://electronicintifada.net/content/photostory-israeli-bulldozer-driver-murders-american-peace-activist/4449#.TrMn7kZsz6g



And Jeff, come-on please keep your goading about Palestinian issue on the appropriate threads.
You look desperate.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 5, 2011 - 03:13am PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/11/201111395153781378.html

Apartheid and the occupation of Palestine
As the Russell Tribunal convenes to discuss apartheid, Israel has already surpassed South Africa's racist era.
John Dugard Last Modified: 04 Nov 2011 09:00

This week, the Russell Tribunal on Palestine will consider the question of whether Israel's practices in the occupied Palestinian territory (OPT) constitute the crime of apartheid within the meaning of the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. This Convention, which has been incorporated into the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, is not confined to apartheid in South Africa. Instead it criminalises, under international law, practices that resemble apartheid.

The Russell Tribunal was initiated in the 1960s by the philosopher Bertrand Russell to examine war crimes committed during the Vietnam War. It has now been revived to consider Israel's violations of international law. It is not a judicial tribunal, but a tribunal comprising reputable jurors from different countries, that seeks to examine whether Israel has violated international criminal law and should be held accountable.

Truth will out.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 5, 2011 - 11:10am PT
The clock is clearly ticking:

http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 5, 2011 - 11:22am PT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 5, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
Yeah right.

Some people get together forcibly evict hundreds of thousands of indigenous Semitic people by outright butchery and blatant thuggery, take those folks land and property, self proclaim a communist inspired theocracy, Emotionally abuse the rest of the world with hackneyed and staid narrative, impose a martial law Bantustan existence on the remaining indigenous Semitic peoples, NOT ratify a Constitution then falsely claim to be the regions only Democracy.



Fats it is a simple question that you keep avoiding. WHY ARE YOU SUCH AN ANTI-SEMITE?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 5, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 6, 2011 - 08:01am PT
"Some people get together forcibly evict hundreds of thousands of indigenous Semitic people by outright butchery and blatant thuggery take those folks land and property..."

i love the semitic reference...oh, arabs are semites, too! funny how the claim became fashionable with the arabs only recently...so, philo, when will you proudly proclaim your aryan heritage?

of course, philo, your accusation can be validly directed at the UN and their decision to establish israel...only, NOBODY was "forcibly evicted" or threatened or even asked/encouraged to leave...many SEMITES CHOSE to leave, and were rejected by their SEMITE neighbors who later started and LOST various wars to evict their fellow SEMITES



"self proclaim a communist inspired theocracy..."

man, that's just STUPID: "communist inspired theocracy"...philo, communists are anti-theology...communists ban religion...communists do not believe in god...communists believe government can solve all our problems, which begins with denying our individual rights for the collective good

israel is not governed by religious leaders; israel doesn't even demand that jewish israelis practice judaism; israel provides FREEDOM of religion; arabs and muslims and crhistians living in israel are granted FULL CITIZENSHIP with the right to vote, run for office, serve in the government and military, openly protest the government, etc.; sounds a lot like american...oh, wait, you hate america, too


"Emotionally abuse the rest of the world with hackneyed and staid narrative, impose a martial law Bantustan existence on the remaining indigenous Semitic peoples, NOT ratify a Constitution then falsely claim to be the regions only Democracy."


israel is the ONLY thriving democracy in the middle east...you want to find the communists? look in gaza and the west bank...no, you'd rather proclaim the moral superiority of "semitic peoples" that call for the extermination of a semitic people
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 6, 2011 - 08:01am PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057908/Germans-boldy-Nazi-Star-Trek-episode-43-years-filmed.html#ixzz1ctlx157I
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 09:32am PT
BrainWorm Question for you, What is the definition of Semite?

I will tell you this, emigrant Jews from the former Soviet Union or the US or Africa are NOT Semites. But like the land of Palestinians the term Semite has been absconded with by the Zionists and perverted to justify their illegalities in Palestine.


Your a child boy, an intellectual chjld. Everything I said IS true and verifiable.
NOthing you have said is, For example this utter rot about "Full Citizenship".
Dudedoo, you haven't a clue about the real oppressive nature of the Israeli system.
Have you every been there to see for your self?
Look up the founders of Zionism and the state of Israel. Eastern European Communists to a man. They brought that political ideology and methodology with them to Palestine. It plays out in innumerable ways on a daily basis. Like the addition of the suffix 'nik' to identify groups like the Refuseniks, most recently used to define those thousands of IDF soldiers who refuse to serve the beast of OCCUPATION. You may want to dance and prance about how the Soviet Communists discouraged organized religion, which had more to do with banning 'Community Organizing" than spiritual practices. Hmmm, the Commies had nothing but Disdane for Community Organizers, Does that mean that Skip & Blew and the gang's disdane for Obama's early years mean they are communists? The Israeli Government is controlled by right wing religious nutters and fanatics of Zionism. And if by
israel is the ONLY thriving democracy in the middle east
You mean Socialist parasite of America's Nanny state then I am in agreement with you. Can you even fathom what Israel would be like without the hundreds of billions of our dollars given to them "no questions asked. Do you like that your hard earned money is buying newly constructed homes on confiscated land for ExPat Jews from New York. Free houses for American Jews and home demolitions and evictions for the Semitic peoples whos ancestors did not leave the area for a millenia only to return and CLAIM IT AS A BIRTHRIGHT HOMELAND. I don't even need to go into the false claim of Democracy. AND THEN THIS;
you'd rather proclaim the moral superiority of "semitic peoples" that call for the extermination of a semitic people

No that is what the apologist of Zionism do. They are the one's Hell-Bent on eevicting, eliminating or exterminating the Indigenous Semitic Palestinians. It is not the other way though you have been taught so by the ceaseless victim narrative of the Jews.

And here is another prime WHOPPER;
NOBODY was "forcibly evicted" or threatened or even asked/encouraged to leave...many SEMITES CHOSE to leave,
Really? And where did you get that info? You were not there my family was. They WERE forcibly evicted against their will as were all the Palestinians. Unless of course you are so callous as to believe those fleeing a war zone to save their lives and protect their children are doing so willingly and by choice.

You base your false statements on the Jewish Narrative you have been taught all your life not the real facts on the ground. Don't even begin to assume you have a scratching concept of what life is like in Palestine. My family's history and current circumstanses trump the Zionist Propaganda machine every time.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 10:18am PT
Oh sweet! At least 63 Christians dead and 6 churches on fire in Nigeria.

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1750857

I'm glad this will get full MSM coverage. That way maybe the humane and benevolent U.N. will do something.

FYI: the name of the 'sect' translates to "Western education is sin".

f*#king savages...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 10:35am PT
Too bad you couldn't have feigned the same crocodile tear outrage When the Christian Phalangists, supported and defended by Israeli troops Slaughtered and Butchered thousands of un armed Palestinian Refugees in the Sabra & Shatila camps.
**F*#KING SAVAGES!!!!**


Why are you such an anti-Semite?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 10:44am PT
You're really reaching, Philo. 1982???
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 10:51am PT
Why does the date matter when it comes to a Massacre? Do you think the Armenians have forgotten?

Or is it that only the atrocities of radical Islamists matter?
Why are Christian and Jewish crimes against humanity all right in your your all white book?

Double speak and double standards make you look ugly, ignorant and mean spirited.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 10:56am PT
Why are Christian and Jewish crimes against humanity are all right in your your all white book?

They aren't. Never said they were. It just seems to me that Christians and Jews don't go around targeting people because of their faith.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 10:58am PT
BULLSH#T JACK ASS!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:03am PT
BULLSH#T JACK ASS!


Oh, hit a nerve? Why is Boko Harem killing Christians and burning their churches? Why are Copts in Egypt suffering the same fate? Why is Southern Thailand suffering? How about them Christian preachers in the Phiilippines getting the axe? Who is doing this??? And why?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:09am PT
Did you ever say to any one that "Pay back's a bitch"?


Read your history. Take special note of Christian oppression of native and indigenous peoples.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:13am PT
Uh, "payback" is different than killing people because of their faith.

No?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:14am PT
Not in these cases NO.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:19am PT
Yes it is, Philo. By definition.

Payback, or retribution, is in the name of a perceived wrong-doing.

By faith, is really just bigotry, or hate, or intolerance.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:23am PT
Blurring again?

You have no concept of what has played out in those areas in the past.
Most ethnic violence is PayBack based not faith based.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:23am PT
What is the definition of Semite?

I will tell you this, emigrant Jews from the former Soviet Union or the US or Africa are NOT Semites. But like the land of Palestinians the term Semite has been absconded with by the Zionists and perverted to justify their illegalities in Palestine.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:37am PT
Philo, you're a tiring one-trick-pony. I'm not talking about Paleos or Jooos.

There's a bigger picture. But you just want to focus on those peaceful, persecuted Palestinians. They've never killed innocent children in cold blood, right? Only Jooos do that.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:46am PT
Well Blurring you keep ramming those other cases into the conversation.


Yes Palestinians have killed innocent civilians I have never denied it. But have you ever accepted that the Israelis do too? Or are you still of the mind set that all Palestinians are terrorists deserving of death by the hands of the ever victims. In fact you seem to cheer the death of Palestinians every chance you get.

Why are you such an anti-Semite?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 11:53am PT
Or are you still of the mind set that all Palestinians are terrorists deserving of death by the hands of the ever victims. In fact you seem to cheer the death of Palestinians every chance you get.

You know that is not true. If bad guys get banged, I'm not too troubled. But when you start targeting innocents, you're just evil.

That's where I stand.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
That is what your holier than thou F*#king Israeli Zionists do, They target innocents. Can you deny it? Or do you really think the 1400+ dead Palestinians slaughtered by the IDF in the last siege of Gaza were all terrorist combatants? Do YOU? even the children?

Like I said you believe all Jews are Victims. And the only good Palestinian is a dead one.

Do you even know the definition of Semite?
Why are you so rabidly anti-Semitic?



No wonder Pay Back is a Bitch. It takes a lot to reach through thick headedness like yours.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
Do you even know the definition of Semite?
Why are you so rabidly anti-Semitic?


Get off that high horse, Johnson. I do understand most Paleos are Semites and some current Israeli Jooos aren't.

So what??? This isn't a Semite issue. Ugggh, I let you drag me into the endless Paleo/Jooo discussion.

Whatever....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
That is the discussion wing nut.

And the Israelis beat the crap out of the rest of the world with the anti-Semite charge. Funny thing is they are not Semites. But the innocent Palestinians they oppressing and murdering are Semites.


And just as a matter of basic intelligence quit using "Paleo" as a term. You apparently don't understand that definition any better than you do Semite.


paleo-
A prefix that means "prehistoric" (as in paleontology) or "early or primitive" (as in Paleolithic).
The only fitting element is the Palestinian's ancient claim to the land of Palestine.

You can continue to be degrading to Hebrews by using the ugliness of "Joos" as a term but paleo doesn't even mean what you think it does. Why are you so anti-Semetic?




So what's the matter Blew, Crap got your tongue? Again.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 6, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
That is the discussion wing nut.

No it's not. This is what you don't get!

There is a wider problem than your precious Palestinians. But you'd rather focus on that.

That is NOT part of the 'Clash'.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 6, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Anyway, as pitiful as it is, civilians die during wars.
Even Israeli ones Fats?



The evil one


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Nov 6, 2011 - 11:12am PT
That is the discussion wing nut.

No it's not. This is what you don't get!

There is a wider problem than your precious Palestinians. But you'd rather focus on that.

That is NOT part of the 'Clash'.


You all heard it here first folks according to Blurring, the Palestinian/ sraeli conflict "is NOT part of the 'Clash'". Whew what a relief.

Honestly Blue the reason I hassle you here is because, though you can find a radical Islamist finger print to violence the world over, the cause and effect is not the same in all cases. You are too fond of blanket condemnations.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 7, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Soooooo fuggin' scarey!!

How many do we have? How many does Israel have?

But..but..but..we're the GOOD GUYS!

We would never use one of those nasty nukes, only those EVIL Iranians..

We just have them for...uh...you know, to make the BAD guys think we might use one..

Can't imagine why in the world those evil Iranians would want one.

Gotta love that one sided world view.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 7, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
The Iranians have intimated that they have some nukes that they spirited out of Belarus when the CCCP broke up. Their announcement that they will be running 2 Iranian navy ships off the East Coast soon is interesting when you consider that little factoid.

Hey Phil, they let our embassy folks go....after 444 days or so, so I guess we can trust them:-)
ahad aham

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
the uss vincennes shot the commercial iranian aircraft out of the sky over iranian territorial waters in 88. something like 290civilian deaths. guess the iranians can trust the us?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 7, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
It was a huge accident, error, negligence and mistake during the fog and stress of war that no one in the US was happy about or defended. It was a mistake. The US could not bring back the loved ones but paid $61 million dollars compensation. The US forgave Israel for doing something similar to one of our boats during the 6 day war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident


No mistake on the Iranian embassy take over and holding hostages, the Iranians acted like common criminals day in and day out for 444 days. As to if the Iranians can trust us. No, they probably can't due to our history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

Probably part of the problem.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
uss liberty was not an accident in 67
uss sides and uss vincennes were purposefully provoking iran (during iran/ iraq war - us was not at war)
yeah,operation ajax and the overthrow of the democratically elected mosaddegh
sure screwed the trust
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 7, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
Israel - 287 x 71 miles at it's greatest.
One "well" placed device.........and Bibi is responsible for the destruction of Israel.
That will go over well with Jeff.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:23am PT
Hey Phil, they let our embassy folks go....after 444 days or so, so I guess we can trust them:-)
Couch, Did you forget the treasonous involvement of Reagan & Bush Sr who cut a deal with the revolutionaries to hold the hostages just until Carter lost re-election? Have you so soon forgotten Ollie North and the Iran Contra affair. Arms traded to our enemies and all.

The Hostage takers have told the world they were ready to release the Embassy staff very early but were made to keep them till the day of RayGun's election. Convenient memory loss. Which is a hallmark of the Wrong wing. The thugs on the right depend on the collective memory loss of Americans. How else can you explain them ever being re-elected?

So lay the appropriate blame & responsibility at feet of US.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:29am PT
It was awesome this morning to hear that the French and American presidents think NuttinYahoo is nothing but lying scum.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:40am PT
The C of C is entirely a neocon chickenhawk delusion.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:40am PT
Hey here are some classy Zionists. Vandalizing and spray painting Swastikas on Israeli peace activists property.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/death-threats-sprayed-on-home-of-peace-now-activist-in-apparent-price-tag-attack-1.394344

Published 11:12 08.11.11Latest update 11:12 08.11.11

Death threats sprayed on home of Peace Now activist, in apparent 'price tag' attack
This is the second time in months that Hagit Ofran has been targeted, allegedly by right-wing extremists angry over dismantling of illegal West Bank settlements.
By Oz Rosenberg

The graffiti warned: "Hagit Ogran, Rabin is waiting for you", referring to the assassination of former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, by a right wing-activist.

Really classy reference to murder. Why must the Zionists murder the Peace workers.

Obviously the "right wing" in Israel is as batshit crazy as in America.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:47am PT
Hey Fat, what fog of war? We weren't at war. Iran and Iraq were.

We can get caught up in anybody's fog and it's ok?

Sh#t, a few Israelis got killed but there was a war going on in Asia, fog of war bro.

You've got an answer for everything.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:49am PT
Fog of mind, yes. Fog of war, no.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:50am PT
Fats is always at War...
with reality.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 8, 2011 - 10:48am PT
Actually Philo he not at war with reality, he is at war with the people he wishes to defend.

Bottom line is that for the most part the Israeli, Iranian, Palestinian, on and on and on, people are good. Their leaders SUCK DONKEY TAINT.

It's almost always that the loudest, most boisterous ego-centric people get into positions of power and f*#k everything up.

That is what is currently up with the governments of Israel AND Iran.
Their outlook is one and the same. No compromise what so ever hoping to "protect" what they perceive as being threatened. But the very actions they engage in are more self-destructive than the dangers the "other side" poses.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 8, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
Run for office Jeff.

Edit.

I must have hot a "true chord" because you are responding to me again, and calling me an idiot.
One thing I've learned about you, Jeff, is if someone truly "nails it" you respond as you just did.

You perpetuate this CRAP, just like the idiot leaders on both sides who have nothing in mind but their own ass, not the people they supposedly govern.
Great feeling to be perpetuating some of the most unreasonable crap on the face of this planet, ain't it, Jeff.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:15am PT
Rubio Moves to Reform U.N.
Daniel Halper
November 10, 2011 11:04 AM


Florida senator Marco Rubio is introducing legislation today to reform the United Nations. The United States gives at least 22 percent of the U.N. budget, and consequently has much influence over the multinational organization. Rubio's bill is a companion to Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen’s House bill, and would, according to the senator's office, accomplish the following things:

· Allow the U.S. to fund only UN agencies and programs that advance U.S. interests and values, resulting in greater competition among UN entities for funding that would increase transparency and effectiveness.

· Authorize the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to investigate and audit the use of U.S. contributions to the UN.

· Prohibit U.S. contributions to the UN from being used for any purpose other than the specific purposes for which it was made available by Congress.

· Firmly establish U.S. policy on various issues relating to the UN, including transparency, reform, Security Council expansion, terrorism, anti-Semitism and the unfair treatment of Israel.

· Withholds U.S. contributions from any UN agency or program that upgrades the status of the Palestinian observer mission outside a negotiated settlement with Israel.

· Conditions U.S. membership on and funding of the UN Human Rights Council on the Council’s adoption of reforms barring membership of countries subject to Security Council sanctions, under Security Council-mandated human rights investigations, states sponsors of terrorism, “countries of particular concern” for religious freedom violations, or that have been designated as Tier 3 for human trafficking violations.

· Makes it U.S. policy to lead a high-level diplomatic campaign to revoke and repudiate the Goldstone Report and its follow-on measures by the UN General Assembly.

· Withholds U.S. funding from any part of the UN’s flawed Durban process, which has been hijacked by rogue regimes and used to advance an anti-Israel, anti-Semitic, anti-Western, anti-freedom agenda.

· Conditions U.S. funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) providing assistance to Palestinians refugees until UNRWA meets certain safeguards against terrorist links.

Former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton discusses this legislation and the UNESCO follies in the latest issue of the magazine.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
This is not news. Actually a joke.

This guy reminds me of Perry and his newly lack of “what is the third agency I am trying to get rid of”. Everything in his reform legislation is past or 40 years history old. Republican’s [mostly right-wing] have always wanted for the US to get out of the UN. They have always complained because the US has to control the charter, actions and everything else.

The UN is United Nations not the US United Nations. They do not like it when any country other than the US runs it, current country is South Korea which changes to another country in 2016 to be fair that tries to mediate addressing disputes between member states and finding consensus to global issues, programs, interests and especially HUMAN RIGHTS. Reason they forget to pay funds sometimes.

True it does need reforming but from within itself but not from some right-wing Christian nuts and Jewish lobbyists .

When I saw Former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton discusses this legislation had to laugh.

Not only does he admits to being a coward on the Vietnam war by getting into the National Guard, was involved in the Iran-Contra affair, his so called sources of pre-war claims of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. One of the reasons we went to war. How much blood is on his hands from true sacrifice of a military because he said too scared if he went to Viet Nam. Coward. In 94 quotes; “There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is only the international community, which can only be led by the only remaining superpower, which is the United States”

Why is that republicans love to lie. Is it for attention? Ah! and their love for Israel and hate of the current UN actions with Palestine so they can get into office.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 10, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Fatty

"moral relativism"

You have already answered that one by being the problem and not the solution. Which I am sure we will agree there will never be one but there is hope. Yes! I will laugh at that comment. The US is declining, is it over? Not only on inequality and social decline but with our trust or untrust of the rest of the world.

Need to laugh seriouly at the debates from your fellow men running for office. And these guys will know how to run foreign policy, Hell! Jerry Springer could do better.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 10, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
Fatty
You are wrong or naive which is about 99% of the time you can store solar energy by encapsulating through ground thermal storage, last for 30 days , warm the house or structure. Other countries are and have it, actually a couple of here in the US.

Dr F with Krugman’s article which is true

“Let’s face it: a large part of our political class, including essentially the entire G.O.P., is deeply invested in an energy sector dominated by fossil fuels, and actively hostile to alternatives. This political class will do everything it can to ensure subsidies for the extraction and use of fossil fuels, directly with taxpayers’ money and indirectly by letting the industry off the hook for environmental costs, while ridiculing technologies like solar.”

You guys are still in the 50”s with Reagan’s politics. That is why America is in decline and China will take over. They get things done rather than here where we talk, talk, talk: What jobs ???? are or the republicans have in mind? Making shirts and shoes made in the US with illegals to keep cost compared to other countries. Maybe more Pizza, e-bay merchandise. Come on give me a clue? What jobs would you create: more financial advisors like yourself telling people where to invest and they loose everything?

Gays or gays in the military or gay marriages and abortion, republicans need that to get elected, when do they plan to talk about real issues about energy efficient housing, reducing energy by regulated insulating materials rather than unregulated toxic materials. Please give me a clue?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
And, we have enemies, who do not share our values, they must neutralized.

You are my enemy, Jeff Elfont, because you don't share my "values".
Should you be neutralized?
There are allot of people in America that don't share your "values".
Should they be neutralized as well?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 10, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
Nah, Fatty just wants muslims and gays and democrats and poor people and occupy Oakland and environmentalists and hungry people and welfare recipients and lesbians and Iranians and.............nootralized.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
Anytime you want to try, I'm always prepared.

Jeff Elfont,

Yeah, right break the law?
I'll leave that to you, since you have a documented history of it.

Can't wait for you to run for office.....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 10, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
"Carbon dioxide is portrayed as harmful. But there isn't even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas."

-Rep. Michelle Bachmann, April, 2009
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 10, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
“Perhaps I should have elaborated more fully, a better statement would have been, "they want to force their values upon us".”

Fatty: Jihad or the current Holy War was starting in the early 70’s. The US ignored the signs. There were lots of Intelligence that this is where We the US needed to concentrate but like everything else someone without a clue had there own agenda. Like we always do we make the same mistakes.
We spent too much time, energy and money getting cameras in the sky to watch Russia/China when we should have been on the ground and listening in the Middle East; we ignored them.

When 9/11 came we again spent a lot of time, more energy and unbelievable amount of money getting better cameras in the sky, listening devices not to watch Russia/China but that area where two wars are about to come to an end and lessons learned as in Viet Nam we loose.

That is the reason for their war against us is because "they [US] want to force their values upon us [Muslims]".” Christian Values and US Republican dictatorship. They say Imperialist intervention.

Problem, yes we have a problem,we waited too long. Now we have to pay for that mistake.

One solution that can help is Israel and their occupation: But will never happen. We will always be at war because of a few condos and ignorance.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 10, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
Lost, thank you for educating Fatty on this issue.

He is a dumb fuk
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 10, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
How many know that Iran is a partially democratic, technologically proficient state with no history of attacking its neighbors, not a tinpot dictatorship run by a vicious loon?

Maybe not modern Iran, as founded a century ago. But Iran is at a crossroads of the world, and has been fighting its neighbours to the west, east and north since before history began. And there's lots of that history.

That's not to say that Iran has any current military ambitions. The US successfully converted much or Iraq into an Iranian client state, and it has no other realistic ambitions it might accomplish, being surrounded by heavily armed, suspicious neighbours.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
could you show us the map of military bases iran has built to occupy foriegn regions it borders?


U.S. foreign bases are in countries that were liberated and handed back to the sovereign entities i.e. Germany, Japan, Guam, Phillipines, Italy, S. Korea, and soon to be Iraq/Afghanistan.

We aren't occupying them. We are protecting them. They don't want us to leave completely.


youd have to have a bucket over your head to believe that iran is the threatening side of this

Iran's threat is not a ground war. It is one nuclear-tipped rocket that has to get through missle defenses. They can reach NATO headquarters in Belgium. And Israel.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
Don't you understand if anybody gets nuked, the whole game changes drastically? And Iran and the Mullahs are reckless enough to do it.

Think big-picture. Chess game. What happens when/if Iran launches a nuke? A can of worms opens that you obviously cannot comprehend, war.

Also, did you know that Iranian subs/ships were trolling our Eastern seaboard in int'l waters? Striking distance.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
the US is the only nation on earth we have good evidence of ever plotting a first strike

You're a fool. Look at your history.

Your comments are so ridiculous I may just stop responding to them. You are a historical moron. And every time I prove you wrong you change the subject like a blabbering fool. Go to OWS protest or something.

You have nothing valid to contribute here. Just crap.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
keep changing the subject....
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
could you show us the map of military bases iran has built to occupy foriegn regions it borders?


You gotta admit, that's a good one.......
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
???


I didn't know Iran had ANY military bases outside of Iran itself.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
Well, let's read what our own military think tank analysis of Iran's ability to threaten the United States


Richard Herrmann, director of the Mershon Center for International Security Studies at The Ohio State University said Iran's navy is too small with too miniscule a budget to remain for long off the U.S. coast."This is hard to take seriously because Iran's navy is very small. This force, whatever it may be, is going to be puny, especially compared to the U.S. Navy," said Herrmann, who specializes in the use of imagery and posturing in international conflicts. "Iran doesn't have the capability to come within close proximity to (the United States) to conduct hostile activities. Even if (Iran) launched missiles, we would sink their ships immediately."

Iran lacks battleships or aircraft carriers. Its forces are capable of patrolling the Persian Gulf and sailing a short distance in the Indian Ocean, Herrmann said, but keeping ships stationed near the United States, so far from Iran, would be too expensive for the government.


Michael Connell, the director of the Iranian studies program at CNA, a Washington-area think tank that specializes in naval analyses, agreed with Herrmann.



"Their navy can't reach our coastline right now," Connell said, describing the Iranian announcement as "bombastic rhetoric."
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-09-28/middleeast/world_meast_iran-navy_1_iranian-announcement-iranian-state-news-iran-today?_s=PM:MIDDLEEAST
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
You gotta admit, that's a good one......

Survival, no! It's a naive, simplistic view from a static viewpoint.

Are you you implying that all the bases I previously outlined are "occupied" countires, or ones that do not welcome our support?

You people are disappointing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
the subject was americans hell bent on war and the american media calling out foreign countries for acting like we mean what we intend

Nah, you don't know what the f*#k you're talking about with regard to this topic.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 10:44am PT
You have nothing valid to contribute here. Just crap.

And you do?
Yer just a troglodyte who hides behind an internet burqua and spews.
Fricken wuss.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
Especially you, Survival. But then you served in the 'bad war' that we pussed out on.


Who said that Dr. F?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
hmm,
lets see

EVERYONE said that!

well, cept for the c*#k sucker brigade

you really here to blow their horn?


You are one sorry piece of spilt fuk war.

The best part of you ran down yer momma's chin.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
Survival, deep breaths, man. Just do like me and don't even read his posts.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
Survival, I did. I edited it out because I felt it may be misinterpreted. And it was...

Dr. F conveniently left the last part out. Let me see if I recall.

I said:

Survival, no! It's a naive, simplistic view from a static viewpoint.

Are you you implying that all the bases I previously outlined are "occupied" countires, or ones that do not welcome our support?

You people are disappointing.

Especially you, Survival. But then you served in the 'bad war' that we pussed out on.

Not you personally, don't take offense, but the leadership.

Meaning you served in an ugly war where GI's were sh#t on and the leadership totally miscalculated the war. In retrospect...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
You're right, that's much less insulting hahahahaha

Don't worry, Bluey, insulting someone for serving in combat is always much less offensive when it comes from a brain-dead, wingnut chickenhawk like yourself.


Rotten souls like you do not surprise me anymore. You come off as 'all about peace' and 'getting along' and 'war is always wrong', but you people are the first to divide, segregate, and twist the words of those whom you disagree with just to attempt to slander them or make them appear 'bad'.

Nice job.

This is why I edited my post. I knew ghouls like you and Dr.F would twist it into hatred and try to deride me.

The context of my original statement is twisted by hateful peopl like you. You are a rotten human being.

What I meant was that having served in Nam, I was disappointed that Bruce would be against leaving bases behind after our victories to ensure sh#t stayed calm.

He served in a 'bad war' that was totally mismanaged by the higher-ups at the expense of the 'grunts'. As a result I can understand how he is jaundiced now by the acts of combat.

I never implied he was a pussy. I know different. He's more the badass than I.

I was making a different point than what your implying.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
Sorry buddy, no need to try to "twist it into hatred", it did a perfectly good job by itself

What did I say that was hate towards Bruce?

Yes I understand perfectly how telling someone that they served combat duty in a "pussy war" could accidentally be misconstrued as an insult

I thought it was clear that I was referring to leadership, not troops on the ground.

Hahahahaha, except you still haven't figured out what that point was.

People like you, and your ignorance, delusion and stupidity, are a far greater threat to the freedom and prosperity of our country than any enemy we've ever fought.


You have no skills of thinking logically obviously.





bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
I didn't call it a 'pussy war', wordsmith, I called it a war where leadership "pussed out".

Stop twisting my words.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
Yeah, look at his pics in the vet thread, genius. And he's mentioned it before in other threads. Not boasting, but it just came up.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
A ha! It becomes clear now!!

Much ado... No Blue I didn't serve in Nam. I went in years after, during the broke-ass military years.

Thanks for helping clear it up.

I have posted Vietnam type threads because my era felt close to it. We studied Vietnam era survival, escape, resistance extensively. What I have said in the past is that I worked with many Nam-era guys. I met ex-POW's in my work at the Survival school.

Nor did I serve in the first Gulf war. I left the school in Saudi Arabia right before it started. I had a wife and son I wanted out of there and I had completed my second contract.

There are quite a few Nam vets and Nam era vets around here, and I post as though I were a brother to them, but I have never said I was there.

Back to your original point though, I do believe we maintain many superfluous bases around the world. (Not all of them)

The point was that Iran maintains no active bases of occupation, liberation or otherwise outside of their borders.

Yeah but they've got a proxy army in Hezbollah!! Well, we have taught a lot of countries how to fund and maintain and use proxy armies.

There are those who consider some of our bases occupation, not liberation. I'm not just talking Iraq and Afghanistan either. You should see some of the grafitti I've seen in a few countries.

It's easy for me to understand how some of these countries, Iran included, consider us a hell of a lot more threatening to their national security than they are to us, the most nuke heavy country on the planet and the only country to ever really use one on another nation.

This shouldn't be that tough for you to grasp either.

They have national interests too you know.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
Hahaha, or some of the looks and attitude an American would get at the crags in France and Spain during the multi-trillion dollar Bush War On Baghdad 2003-2008

We don't have bases in France or Spain. And why should I care what french citizens or spaniards think about the U.S. military? Were those same frenchies outraged about France's involvement in the oil-for-food fraud by France?

Did they thank us for doing the heavy-lifting in securing their oil sources from Libya for them?

Which military liberated them from the boot of the Nazis? I'm tired of the French. The spaniards are not even worthy of disdain, they're irrelevant and probably cannot be saved.

Suffice it to say that wearing a cowboy hat would not have been the best way to engender friendship and respect among the locals

This is what I mean. I have to kiss French ass or be careful how I conduct myself there for fear of appearing too American?

Whatever.


As for the Iranians and their bases? Noboby's gov't wants them. And besides, they have proxies like Hezbollah, Hamas, and Venezuela to act in their stead and with their direct support both with arms and finances.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 12, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
And besides, they have proxies like Hexbollah, Hamas, and Venezuela to act in their stead and with their direct support both with arms and finances.


Dude, I read your mind. Did you read my prediction of your response?

Classic. Damn I'm good sometimes.....

Yeah but they've got a proxy army in Hezbollah!! Well, we have taught a lot of countries how to fund and maintain and use proxy armies.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
You're right, of course, Bruce. Nam when we bailed and Afghan in the 80's are good examples.

The fact still remains that nobody wants Iranian bases. Many gov'ts almost insist on our presence. Namely - Germany, Italy, Guam, Philippines, S. Korea, and Japan.

Germany went ape-shit when Rummey suggested we bail on Germany.

I think Qatar even likes us there as well as Kuwait. There may be grafitti or whatever, but that's why the like us there. There is a festering sore that they may not be able to handle.

Same with Iraq.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 12, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
Well a weak gov't that needs or wants to be propped up from their own people isn't the same as the will of the people.

I know a helluva lot of Filipinos that don't want us there.

I heard the same from the Greeks.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
I know a helluva lot of Filipinos that don't want us there.

I gotta call BS on that, dude. I lived there in '85 and went to Subic Bay twice and the surrounding towns seemed to love us. Even in Manila, where I lived.

Sh#t, they even have a local chapter of B.A.S.S on Lake Caliraya where I fished a couple of bass tournaments (bass implanted from Alabama). The 'resort' we stayed at was the same location where actors form Apocalypse Now stayed. When you cruise the arms of the lake you can still see some off the props onshore. They left them there.

Nowadays the Philippines suffers an Islamic/Communist insurgency know as MILF ( Moro Islamic Liberation Front). We have spec-ops guys training gov't troops to seek these guys out who essentially want an Islamic state there.

They slaughter Filipino Catholithic priests, tourists, and attack the gov't on a regular basis. They are weak now due to diligence, but they still exist.

The Southern Islands.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 12, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
I gotta call BS on that, dude. I lived there in '85 and went to Subic Bay twice and the surrounding towns seemed to love us. Even in Manila, where I lived.

I call bs on your bs !! Yes there are a lot of them that love having us around. They are a wonderful people, that's the main thing.

But I was there in the 90's, so that trumps your 80's....HA!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
I call bs on your bs !! Yes there are a lot of them that love having us around. They are a wonderful people, that's the main thing.

But I was there in the 90's, so that trumps your 80's....HA!!


Bruce, sh#t has decayed since I was there. The insurgency has gotten worse. They are importing Indosesian terror cells to P.I. This is why we inserted special training groups with the Filipino G.I.s

Filipinos are generally friendly and welcoming of Americans. They don't forget WWII unlike others.

What is happening now (10 years after you were ther, HA!) is different. It's an Islamic insurgency. Just like Southern Thailand from Malaysia.

We stepped up to help out our Filipino bros. I wonder when we'll be in So. Thailand? Or if we should be?

The thais are doing pretty well. Mostly hit-and-run crap, but it IS an Islamic invasion. The Buddhist North does not like it at all.

What is weird, like Mao's conquest, is that in Thailand the insurgents are targeting teachers, not just military.

I can provide links if you like.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 12, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
No links necessary Blue. I keep up on things around the world.

The part that really bothers me is that some of us think we have a god given right to do whatever we want in this world, in direct conflict with our stated principles in many areas.

Just look how many asshats we've propped up to fight the evil commies and muslims.

Yeah we spilled a lot of blood in WWI and WWII. So did the Brits, French, Aussies, Canadians and many other countries. Nobody spilled more blood than the Russians, what special god given rights do they have to project their power all over the world?

Where does us bankrupting ourselves end? Where does any of this sh*t end?

When is it the responsibility of the rest of the world to pay up?

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 12, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
The part that really bothers me is that some of us think we have a god given right to do whatever we want in this world, in direct conflict with our stated principles in many areas.


Manifest Destiny, revisited?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
Where does us bankrupting ourselves end? Where does any of this sh*t end?

When is it the responsibility of the rest of the world to pay up?

Well, we reach some common ground.

IMO, shut down Italian, German, and Japanese bases. Guam is too strategicand same with the Philippines. Same for Diego Garcia.

The gulf bases are questionable.

It's time to come home and focus on us, but slowly and methodically.

Afterall, nowadays these bases are really not necessary with the other bases in place. Guam, Diego Garcia, Philippines, and S. Korea.

F*#k Europe, they have little gratitude, and will once again have to dig themselves out of a hole. They can fight their next war themselves.

As for the gulf? If we did more exploration and tapping of domestic resources here, we'd be able to tell them to, "pound sand", and just pull out. Let them all cut each other's throats.

I wouldn't be disappointed to just see the whole Arabian Peninsula go in flames. I'm tired of their sh#t....

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 14, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
Fattrad...What do they call that 30,000 bomb..? The Twinky...?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 14, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
Ah , the old republican voucher scam...? It's kinda like an IOU that has no value..The republicans want to print them like there is no tomorrow and pass them out to every dumb sh#t that thinks they will be good for something...Vouchers have become the cure- all and buzz word for let them eat cake...RJ
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 14, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
Rottenjohnny said:
Fattrad...What do they call that 30,000 bomb..? The Twinky...?

LOL! RJ, todays Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-14/30-000-pound-bunker-buster-bomb-now-ready.html

"The Air Force has taken delivery from Boeing Co. (BA) of a new 30,000-pound bomb capable of penetrating deeply buried targets. The Air Force Global Strike Command started receiving the "Massive Ordnance Penetrator"...........

Last year the US stocked Diego Garcia with a lot of newer bunker buster (not these massive things) and that re-started the "Iran attack imminent" rumor. Probably info on this thread 1300 posts back or so.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/index.html
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 21, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 21, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Hey Fatty

By the way why did Mr. Neil Alpert (a former senior AIPAC and GOP National Committee official and PR specialist), other than trying to get part of $10 million in April to revive Moammer Gadhafi's sagging Washington reputation. What was the reasoning behind it?

You should add “ torture” with your “greed is good”.

Wikileaks Libya
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 21, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
Hell,

What do I need to look over there, wrote a long time ago there will be riots here.

I say a coup in 2113. Right here coming to a town near you and every where else.

As for me, I will be in another country watching it.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 21, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
Hey Fats, what's the proper amount of pepper spray to use on those illegal OCCUPIERS in the West Bank?
They won't move.
They are breaking the law.
They are infringing on the rights of others.
By all the standards you have extolled they should be prepared for any bad thing that happens to them and they better not whine about the dirty hippies.
Should we just dump a couple of fire retardant bomber loads on them or should they be cookeed with your heat ray?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 30, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/11/20111130122540554749.html

Fats are you bummed that the US and the rest of the "Civilized" world yanked Benji NuttYahoo's short & curliees hard enough that he had to trickle down some shekels?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 30, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
Grotesque. How long before Israel starts whining for US military assistance?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 30, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-zionist-ultra-orthodox-are-cashing-in-their-i-o-u-1.398580

Published 03:55 30.11.11Latest update 03:55 30.11.11
The Zionist ultra-Orthodox are cashing in their I.O.U.
Those spending their Saturdays having fun rather than defending shepherds and farmers should not be surprised if the day after, Jewish fundamentalism even invades their bedrooms.

The Haredim and Hardalim, as the non-Zionist and Zionist ultra-Orthodox are respectively known, are now cashing in their promissory note from Israeli society. Their bitterness at an ungrateful secular-nationalist public is certainly justified. For what is doing without women's singing in comparison to the direct line to God they offer us? And what are advertisements featuring men only compared to the blank check God gave all of us to be the masters of the entire Promised Land?

We could have clung to the historical, secular explanations for our ingathering in this land (briefly, the "final solution" of that same civilized Christian West, which also expelled us from the countries of the Diaspora ). This would have committed us to the humanitarian and earthly values and perceptions that have emerged from every struggle against ethnic persecution and oppression. But the historical explanation would also have obliged us to admit our similarity to other colonialist movements, and to understand that what was possible in the 18th and 19th centuries in America and Australia is not possible here and now.

To escape the contradictions created by history and its lessons, we chose to buy the meta-historical explanation of our armed, fortified presence here: no more and no less than God's promise to Abraham, from whom all of us are directly descended. This promise is what permits us, in our view, to do whatever we please to the people that dwells here, the natives of this land: to expel, to concentrate, to divide, to blockade, to impoverish, to dry out, to bomb, to uproot, to dispossess.

This same divine promise grants all Jews everywhere - even those who have never set foot in Israel - more rights in this land than any Palestinian who was born here.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 2, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
hey fattrad, maybe the libs are right...i mean, a clash of civilizations, does require two civilizations...and i know which side the libs will claim to be "civilized"


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/afghan-president-pardons-imprisoned-rape-victim-agrees-marry-attacker-article-1.985756?localLinksEnabled=false
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 2, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
ok, as requested. Huge strides being made in Afghanistan as anyone can see.

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/02/143057341/for-afghan-women-rape-law-offers-little-protection
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
H N I C ????


Please Lowest tell us what your latest alter ego meant by H.N.I.C.
As a dirty hippie liberal I am illiterate and ignorant of these things.
Pull off the sheet and tell us what you really feel.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 2, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Obama is going to be the cause of a war between Egypt and Israel, strip that Nobel from him.

The really dumb one



Yes Fatty, just what you have always wanted! Another middle east war!

FINALLY, one of your many failed predictions might come true!


And yes, Obama is a killer and never deserved the Nobel Peace Prize.

Obama will kill anyone, anytime, anywhere, he considers a threat to this country.

And that about ensures his reelection.

Most Americans, unlike you, want a President who will kill Osama Bin Laden, when
Republican pussy Bush said it does not matter if we even find Bin Laden.

Make it $20K Obama goes another four.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 2, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/saudis-bar-aussie-diplomats-in-blasphemy-case-20111202-1oac7.html

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/268844/soldier-killed-in-bomb-blast

http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/01/bomb-targets-official-in-peshawar-police.html

Just today's headlines, brought to you by the religion of peas.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
"H.N.I.C." ??????
Care to spell it out to US liberals? Eh, LEB/Glanton? Tell us your true feelings.



Hey Fattrad, what's your take on this?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-mossad-chief-israeli-attack-on-iran-must-be-stopped-to-avert-catastrophe-1.399046

Published 22:31 01.12.11Latest update 22:31 01.12.11

Former Mossad chief: Israeli attack on Iran must be stopped to avert catastrophe
Meir Dagan speaks out against military offensive on Iran, expresses concern that Defense Minister Barak believes Israel only has less than a year to carry out an attack.

By Amos Harel

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan warned Thursday against an Israeli attack on Iran, saying such a move would likely lead to a regional war involving Hezbollah, Hamas, and Syria.

"I'm concerned about possible mistakes and I prefer to speak out before there is a catastrophe," Dagan said in an interview on the Israeli television program “Uvda."
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 3, 2011 - 07:17am PT
Egypt’s Descent
Two-thirds of the Arab world’s largest nation is voting for sharia.

I’ve been alarmed by the latest polls. No, not from Iowa and New Hampshire, although they’re unnerving enough. It’s the polls from Egypt. Foreign policy has not played a part in the U.S. presidential campaign, mainly because we’re so broke that the electorate seems minded to take the view that if government is going to throw trillions of dollars down the toilet they’d rather it was an Al Gore–compliant Kohler model in Des Moines or Poughkeepsie than an outhouse in Waziristan. Alas, reality does not arrange its affairs quite so neatly, and the world that is arising in the second decade of the 21st century is increasingly inimical to American interests, and likely to prove even more expensive to boot.

In that sense, Egypt is instructive. Even in the giddy live–from–Tahrir Square heyday of the “Arab Spring” and “Facebook Revolution,” I was something of a skeptic. Back in February, I chanced to be on Fox News with Megyn Kelly within an hour or so of Mubarak’s resignation. Over on CNN, Anderson Cooper was interviewing telegenic youthful idealists cooing about the flowering of a new democratic Egypt. Back on Fox, sourpuss Steyn was telling Megyn that this was “the unraveling of the American Middle East” and the emergence of a post-Western order in the region. In those days, I was so much of a pessimist I thought that in any election the Muslim Brotherhood would get a third of the votes and be the largest party in parliament. By the time the actual first results came through last week, the Brothers had racked up 40 percent of the vote — in Cairo and Alexandria, the big cities wherein, insofar as they exist, the secular Facebooking Anderson Cooper types reside. In second place were their principal rivals, the Nour party, with up to 15 percent of the ballots. “Nour” translates into English as “the Even More Muslim Brotherhood.” As the writer Barry Rubin pointed out, if that’s how the urban sophisticates vote, wait till you see the upcountry results. By the time the rural vote emerges from the Nile Delta and Sinai early next month, the hard-core Islamists will be sitting pretty. In the so-called Facebook Revolution, two-thirds of the Arab world’s largest nation is voting for the hard, cruel, bigoted, misogynistic song of sharia.

The short 90-year history of independent Egypt is that it got worse. Mubarak’s Egypt was worse than King Farouk’s Egypt, and what follows from last week’s vote will be worse still. If you’re a Westernized urban woman, a Coptic Christian, or an Israeli diplomat with the goons pounding the doors of your embassy, you already know that. The Kingdom of Egypt in the three decades before the 1952 coup was flawed and ramshackle and corrupt, but it was closer to a free-ish pluralist society than anything in the years since. In 1923, its finance minister was a man called Joseph Cattaui, a member of parliament, and a Jew. Couldn’t happen today. Mr. Cattaui’s grandson wrote to me recently from France, where the family now lives. In the unlikely event the forthcoming Muslim Brotherhood government wish to appoint a Jew as finance minister, there are very few left available. Indeed, Jews are so thin on the ground that those youthful idealists in Tahrir Square looking for Jews to club to a pulp have been forced to make do with sexually assaulting hapless gentiles like the CBS News reporter Lara Logan. It doesn’t fit the narrative, so even Miss Logan’s network colleagues preferred to look away. We have got used to the fact that Egypt is now a land without Jews. Soon it will be a land without Copts. We’ll get used to that, too.

Since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact two decades ago we have lived in a supposedly “unipolar” world. Yet somehow it doesn’t seem like that, does it? The term “Facebook Revolution” presumes that technology marches in the cause of modernity. But in Khartoum a few years ago a citywide panic that shaking hands with infidels caused your penis to vanish was spread by text messaging. In London, young Muslim men used their cellphones to share Islamist snuff videos of Westerners being beheaded in Iraq. In les banlieues of France, satellite TV and the Internet enable third-generation Muslims to lead ever more disassimilated, segregated lives, immersed in an electronic pan-Islamic culture, to a degree that would have been impossible for their grandparents. To assume that Western technology in and of itself advances the cause of Western views on liberty or women’s rights or gay rights is delusional.

Consider, for example, the “good” news from Afghanistan. A 19-year-old woman sentenced to twelve years in jail for the heinous crime of being brutally raped by a cousin was graciously released by President Karzai on condition that she marry her rapist. A few weeks ago, you may recall, I mentioned that the last Christian church in the nation had been razed to the ground last year, as the State Department noted in its report on “international” religious freedom. But Afghanistan is not “international” at all. It is an American client state whose repugnant leader is kept alive only by the protection of Western arms. Say what you like about Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood but at least their barbarous theocratic tyranny doesn’t require vast numbers of NATO troops to build it.

I am not a Ron Paul isolationist. The U.S. has two reasonably benign neighbors, and the result is that 50 percent of Mexico’s population has moved north of the border and 100 percent of every bad Canadian idea from multiculturalism to government health care has moved south of the border. So much for Fortress America. The idea of a 19th-century isolationist republic holding the entire planet at bay is absurd. Indeed, even in the real 19th century, it was only possible because global order was maintained by the Royal Navy and Pax Britannica. If Ron Paul gets his way, who’s going to pick up the slack for global order this time?

Nevertheless, my friends on the right currently fretting about potentially drastic cuts at the Pentagon need to look at that poor 19-year-old woman’s wedding to her cousin rapist and ponder what it represents: In Afghanistan, the problem is not that we have spent insufficient money but that so much of it has been entirely wasted. History will be devastating in its indictment of us for our squandering of the “unipolar” moment. During those two decades, a China flush with American dollars has gobbled up global resources, a reassertive Islam has used American military protection to advance its theocratic ambitions, the mullahs in Tehran are going nuclear knowing we lack the will to stop them, and even Russia is back in the game of geopolitical mischief-making. We are responsible for 43 percent of the planet’s military spending. But if you spend on that scale without any strategic clarity or hardheaded calculation of your national interest it is ultimately as decadent and useless as throwing money at Solyndra or Obamacare or any of the other domestic follies. A post-prosperity America will mean perforce a shrunken presence on the global stage. And we will not like the world we leave behind.

— Mark Steyn, a National Review columnist, is the author of After America: Get Ready for Armageddon. © 2011 Mark Steyn
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 3, 2011 - 07:27am PT
oh, the irony...


islamic fundamentalists imprison a woman for "extramarital sex" because she was RAPED by her cousin, they hang homosexuals, they claim allowing women to drive will destroy virginity, they murder countless innocent people including girls who want to attend school...and libs shrug or, worse, proudly exclaim their "tolerance"


a young man of exceptional athletic talent openly expresses his faith in jesus by quoting the bible, praying before and after games, and spending his off-season performing missionary work...and libs express scorn, contempt, slight regard, even mockery




Tebow’s Religion, and Ours
His authenticity irks our secular, selfish culture.

When the Detroit Lions’ Stephen Tulloch sacked Tim Tebow in the first quarter of their week eight matchup, the linebacker immediately kneeled next to the prone Denver quarterback, in a mockery of Tebow’s habit of praying on-field, most recently seen after his miraculous fourth-quarter comeback against the Dolphins the week before.

The insult coincided with and reinforced the explosion of “Tebowing” as an Internet meme, complete with a Twitter account and web-site. There you can see an act of communion with one’s creator rendered as a bit of pop-cultural ephemera, and you can scroll through pictures of folks striking the pose everywhere from Oxford to Istanbul, with that muddle of irony and enthusiasm that has become my generation’s trademark.

But there isn’t an ironic bone in Tim Tebow’s body. That’s what makes him conspicuous. That’s what makes the fact that he’s managed to stay squeaky clean, in a sport that notoriously is not, conspicuous. And it’s why the power of Tebow’s evangelical-Christian faith, and the earnestness with which he professes it, seems to annoy so many people.

Indeed, even other religious quarterbacks have, in a friendly way, advised Tebow to tone down his religiosity to avoid turning fans off. Said former Super Bowl champion Kurt Warner, himself known to have led on-field prayers: “I’d tell him, ‘Put down the boldness in regards to the words, and keep living the way you’re living. Let your teammates do the talking for you. Let them cheer on your testimony.’” Likewise, when Packers QB Aaron Rodgers was asked about Tebow in the context of his own, more subdued avowals of his faith, he quoted Saint Francis of Assisi: “Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.”

It’s easy to understand why Tulloch, a mediocre middle-linebacker who was a fourth-round pick out of NC State, would want to take Tebow down a peg. For good and for ill, head games and intimidation are as much a part of football as tackling is (not to mention that Tebow has four inches and a pound on Tulloch, and is a talented enough athlete that he’d probably make a better defensive back).

But there is also something a bit nastier in Tulloch’s mockery, in the phenomenon of “Tebowing” as a whole, and in the criticisms by former players like ex–Broncos quarterback Jake Plummer, who said of Tebow, “when he accepts the fact that we know that he loves Jesus Christ, then I think I’ll like him a little better.”

So what is it that so many around football — players, pundits, fans — are so peeved about? Why has Tebow’s faith generated so much controversy and criticism in a sports-entertainment complex that is so filled with clichéd Jesus praise that, to quote Homer Simpson, you’d think God only helped professional athletes and Grammy winners?

I have a theory. Part of it is redirected anger at Tebow’s success, after the whole of the football smart-set had come to the seemingly bizarre conclusion that though he was clearly one of the ten or so best ever to play the position in the NCAA, Tebow had no shot in the NFL. Football doesn’t like to be wrong; they’re mad enough when surefire prospects turn into busts, but when surefire busts succeed, they’re livid. They don’t like to see a guy who winds up to throw passes like he’s pitching for the Yankees — and only occasionally sees them land anywhere near their intended target — marching down the field in the fourth quarter.

But the greater part of it has to do with the curious double standard that seems to be in place when it comes to an athlete’s religiosity. With very few exceptions — Mariano Rivera comes to mind, as well as Curt Schilling, and post-“Prime Time” Deion Sanders — athletes’ professions of faith strike most believers, nonbelievers, and agnostics alike as empty ritual, an extended solipsism in which big men with bigger egos congratulate themselves for having God on their side. How could it be otherwise? We see that in fact so many of them are supremely arrogant — materialists, abusers, and lechers. We’ve become cynical and secular enough as a society that this dissonance doesn’t bother most people. The hypocrisy is actually sort of comforting, a confirmation that that old hokum in the Bible has no bearing on the world as it actually is. It’s the same sort of glee you see from some when Christian politicians and ministers are felled by all-too-human moral — especially sexual — foibles.

By contrast, Tebow is the last Boy Scout. A leader on the field and off who spent his college years not indulging in any of the worldly pleasures afforded to Heisman Trophy winners, but doing missionary work in Thailand; helping overworked doctors perform circumcisions in the Philippines (you read that right); and preaching at schools, churches, and even prisons. This is a young man with such a strong work ethic that, according to teammates, he can’t even be coaxed into hitting the town on a night after a Broncos win, because he is too busy preparing for the next week’s game. This is a young man who even turned the other cheek at Stephen Tulloch’s Tebowing, saying, “He was probably just having fun and was excited he made a good play and had a sack. And good for him.”

That’s way too much earnestness for the ironic. It’s way too much idealism for the cynical. And it’s way too much selflessness for the self-absorbed. In short, people aren’t upset at Tebow’s God talk. They’re upset that he might actually believe it.

— Daniel Foster is news editor of National Review Online.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 3, 2011 - 09:35am PT
philo, i believe glanton, named for the brutal scalphunter captain in Blood Meridian, is engaging in sarcasm when he responds to fattrad's posts. they're actually quite funny when you add a slightly caustic tone to them.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 3, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
who's to blame for rising anti-semitism?

of course, it's the jooooooooooooooooooooooooooooossss!!!


so says, barry's ambassador to belgium:


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-fundraiser-and-ambassador-blames-israel-anti-semitism_610946.html


history will need only one word to sum up the barry administration: INCOMPETENCE
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2011 - 09:09pm PT
New Fatwa Permits Kidnapping, Imprisonment & Rape of “Infidel Women”

For women, and even couples including a woman, thinking of an exotic vacation destination, they may wish to steer clear of regions where the mujahideen are prevalent. According to a new report by MEMRI, the Middle East Media Research Institute, a recent fatwa allows mujahideen to “kidnap, imprison and have sexual intercourse with infidel women:”

On October 28, 2011, the jihadi forum Minbar Al-Tawhid Wal-Jihad published a fatwa by Sheikh Abu Humam Al-Athari, a member of its shari’a council, in which he unequivocally permits mujahideen to capture the infidels’ women and have sexual intercourse with them, even those who are married, on the claim that their marriage bonds to infidels are dissolved as soon as they are taken captive. [Emphasis added]

As MEMRI reports:

The inquiry in response to which Al-Athari issued the fatwa reads as follows:[1] “Is it permissible for mujahideen in jihad fronts to kidnap the infidels’ women and hold them as their captives? What is the ruling regarding a captive in our times? How should they be divided [among the mujahideen]? Is it permissible to imprison [an infidel woman who has been taken captive] in an infidel land, or must she be brought to Dar Al-Islam [the abode of Islam]? How much time must one wait before having sexual intercourse with her, regarding both one who is a virgin and one who is not?”

Al-Athari replies: “There is no doubt that taking the women of the combatant infidels captive – whether they are from AhlAl-Kitab [i.e., Christians or Jews] or pagans – is permitted according to the shari’a… That being said, it must be done only after [the spoils] has been divided by an imam in Dar Al-Islam; if there is no imam at hand, prisoners may not be taken…”

Al-Athari emphasizes that before deciding to take infidel women captive, “one must consider the gains and losses that will result from this deed, which is to say that if the imam of the Muslims in a given country believes that taking the infidels’ women captive will lead the infidels to band together and rape the Muslims’ women, and that the Muslims are in too weak a state to prevent this, he should forbid taking [infidel women] captive…”

If you are reading this, you may be an infidel, defined as “Christian, Jew or pagan.”

A word to the wise is sufficient, I hope.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 5, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
If you are reading this, you may be an infidel, defined as “Christian, Jew or pagan.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel
An infidel (literally "one without faith") is one who has no religious beliefs, or who doubts or rejects the central tenets of a particular religion – especially in reference to Christianity or Islam.[1][2][3]
Infidel is an ecclesiastical term in Christianity around which the Church developed a body of theology that deals with the concept of infidelity; which makes a clear differentiation between those who were baptized and followed the teachings of the Church vs. those who are outside the faith.[4] The term infidel was used by Christians to describe non-Christians or those perceived as the enemies of Christianity. The usage of the term for non-Christian monotheists distinguishes the term from heathen or pagan.[5] As such, the term infidel has often been applied to atheists, whose disbelief is viewed negatively by both Christianity and Islam.[6][7][8]
After the ancient world the concept of otherness, an exclusionary notion of the outside by societies with more or less coherent cultural boundaries, became associated with the development of the monotheistic and prophetic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The conception of infidelity as a theological condition is a result of their strict conformity to monotheism, as well as their rejection and condemnation of pagan rites.[4]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
www.bing.com/search?q=Koran+Kill+Infidels+Quote&FORM=QSRE3

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.



Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.



Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).



Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."



Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."



Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.



Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.


Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).


Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.



Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son.



Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.



Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."



Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"



Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?



Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.



Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."



Quran (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


Shall we start on the Hadiths next?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 5, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
^^^ Please do ^^^
It seems like such a convenient way to keep you off the street.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 6, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
Someone deleted 2 posts off this thread in the last 3 hours.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 7, 2011 - 05:19am PT
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/201112411152278168.html

The Russell Tribunal on Palestine recently found the state of Israel to be guilty of apartheid [EPA]
It is my belief that the recent finding of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine (RToP) that the state of Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid in relation to the Palestine people should be taken with the utmost seriousness by all those who affirm human solidarity and care about making visible the long ordeal of a suffering and vulnerable people.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
Saudi Arabia to Give Australian 500 Lashes, Jail for Blasphemy
Insulting the friends of the founder of Islam earned an Australian national 500 lashes and a year in jail in Saudi Arabia last month.
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 12/7/2011, 10:04 AM



Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaInsulting the friends of the founder of Islam earned an Australian national 500 lashes and a year in jail in Saudi Arabia last month.

Mansor Almaribe, a resident of southern Victoria state, was arrested by religious police on November 14 in Medina while participating in the Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca known as the hajj. His eldest son Jamal told The Melbourne Age newspaper that Almaribe was reading and praying in a group at the time.

Family members told Australian media that Saudi officials accused the 45-year-old of insulting companions of Islam's Prophet Muhammed; blasphemy is considered a serious offense in Saudi Arabia, which is governed under Shari'a (Islamic) law.

No information is available about exactly how or when he insulted them, or even which companions of Muhammed he allegedly had insulted.

He was convicted Tuesday and sentenced to two years in prison and 500 lashes. The court later reduced the sentence to "only" one year in jail, in the presence of an Australian consular official who attended the proceedings.

The maximum number of lashes ever allowed to be used as a sentence under Jewish law during the time of the Holy Temples was 39, and that was to be delivered under the supervision of a medical doctor, in sets of three, so as to ensure the convicted person did not die as a result.

A sentence of 500 lashes is considered equivalent to a death sentence.

Another son of Almaribe, Mohammed -- named for the very prophet on whose behalf he is set to be tortured -- has expressed fears for his father's safety. "Five hundred lashes on his back, and he has back problems," he told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. "I wouldn't think he'd survive 50." Almaribe, a father of five, suffers from diabetes and heart disease.

Australian Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Neil Hawkins has appealed to Riyadh for leniency, according to Canberra's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. "The Australian government is universally opposed to corporal punishment," the department in a statement.

Approximately 300,000 Muslims now live in Australia, and there are over 100 mosques, according to an Australian government website. The Arab community in Australia, numbering more than 210,000, is "diverse and includes many high-profile and successful members," the site notes.



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2011 - 11:56am PT
When is there gonna be a tribunal to expose all the ill deeds the so-called
leadership of Fatah and Hamas have literally used against their own people
just to fatten their Swiss bank accounts and obstruct meaningful economic and
peaceful development? Most of those guys are traitors to their own people.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 7, 2011 - 10:22pm PT




Who it the "Russell Tribunal
Bertrand Russel. Try reading it is all there.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 10, 2011 - 03:34am PT
Priceless.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45621335/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/#.TuMFI0Zsx7Q

By TRIP GABRIEL

updated 2 hours 40 minutes ago
Print Font:
WASHINGTON — Does Newt Gingrich believe in a two-state solution to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Democratic and Republican administrations since the 1990s have adopted that framework for peace in the Middle East, but Mr. Gingrich suggested that he might break with it, calling Palestinians an "invented" people and the current stalled peace process "delusional."

He also said the leadership of the Palestinian Authority, which has pledged to respect Israel's right to exist, really harbors "an enormous desire to destroy Israel."

In his comments, Mr. Gingrich has gone beyond the other Republican presidential candidates, who have condemned President Obama for proposing that Israel's 1967 borders, with mutually agreed land swaps, should be the basis for negotiating peace with the Palestinians.

Middle East experts said that Mr. Gingrich's views did not represent those of Israel's conservative prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, or a majority of the Israeli people, and that they might be counterproductive to establishing peace.


Martin S. Indyk, a former United States ambassador to Israel, said that if Mr. Gingrich believed that Palestinians did not have a right to an independent state, "as implied in his language, then he's not pro-Israel at all."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Allahu Akbar~

The Hollywood jihadi

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/12/hollywood-jihad-shootout-gunman-calmly-targeted-drivers-people-shouting-allahu-akbar.html

Somehow the MSM skipped that part. 2:40 or so in the vid
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 11, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
af·fa·ble
Adjective:

Friendly, good-natured, or easy to talk to.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
What's sad, Wendell, is that the shooter is only described as a (obviously racist, evil) white male with no mention of what he was shouting.

Thanks again, MSM. Idiots and cowards....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 12, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=335119&D=2011-12-12&SO=&HC=3

Where is Human Rights Watch, the United Nations, and feminists worldwide???

Silence.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 12, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 13, 2011 - 11:12am PT
Middle East states of mind

Are the Palestinians an invented people? Sure, but so are the Israelis.

By Michael Kinsley
December 13, 2011

In November 1947, shortly after the United Nations voted for partition of the Holy Land into separate Arab and Jewish states, Chaim Weizmann was cited by the New York Times as saying that "the most important work now was to build Palestine."

What? To build Palestine? Yes, in 1947 the word "Palestinian" — if it meant anything at all — referred to Jews living in Palestine. The Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post) was the Jewish English-language newspaper. The Palestine Orchestra (now the Israel Philharmonic) was a Jewish orchestra, filled to overflowing with Holocaust survivors. The United Palestine Appeal, an American charity, raised money to resettle homeless Jews from Europe in Palestine — one of the things Arabs objected to the most. They were not large donors.

Arabs living in the territory of Palestine were called Arabs — or, very occasionally, Palestinian Arabs. This was in keeping with a philosophy known as pan-Arabism, which held that all places where Arabs ruled were part of one big Arab nation.

This history is probably what Newt Gingrich had in mind when he commented last week that the Palestinians were "an invented people."

For two decades before they lost the 1967 Six-Day War, Arabs controlled the entire West Bank, the Gaza Strip and half of Jerusalem. They could have established a Palestinian state any time they wanted. They never tried. The famous U.N. Resolution 242, which ended the Six-Day War, makes no reference to Palestinians, but just refers to refugees.

In short, Gingrich is right, up to a point. Until the 1970s, Palestinian nationalism was not much of a factor. The PLO was formed in 1964, but the idea of "liberating" Palestine from Israeli control didn't really take hold until after the 1967 war. But it did take hold, and now must be taken into account. Today, acknowledging the Palestinians' right, at least in theory, to a state of their own is the price of admission to any serious discussion of the Middle East. Even Israel's right-wing prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, feels obliged to give it lip service.

And it doesn't really matter that Palestinian nationalism is a recent confection. People who want a state should have a state. That seems to be the rule. In an era when the former Soviet Union continues to break apart like a cookie, with each crumb claiming sovereignty over a piece of territory and the claimed territories often overlapping, it's hard to argue for a higher standard.

In the 1980s and 1990s I worked at the New Republic, a fervently pro-Zionist publication. Many's the night I worked late editing articles I wasn't sure I agreed with offering yet one more reason why a Palestinian state was unthinkable. These days the position of Jews in America and in Israel seems to be something like a resigned shrug. The Palestinians want a state? So OK, let them have a state, if we can settle other issues like borders and refugees. See how they like it.

Gingrich also is not completely off the wall in describing the situation as a struggle "between a civilian democracy that obeys the rule of law and a group of terrorists that are firing missiles every day." On reflection, Gingrich might have wanted to distinguish between the Palestinian Authority, which rules in the West Bank, and Hamas, which controls Gaza. Hamas is the one firing missiles. But even regarding the Palestinian Authority, it's incredible that all it has taken for the PLO (which conducted the slaughter at the Munich Olympics, among other atrocities) to become an acceptable future Palestinian government is to have found a leader who wears a suit and tie and knows how to shave. Palestine Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is considered the grownup, the trustworthy negotiating partner, the one you complain to when Hamas misbehaves.

You can get in great trouble if you say that Israel also has its terrorist past. And, to be sure, there are big differences. But there are also similarities. If you peruse the New York Times coverage of the Middle East in the weeks before and after the 1947 U.N. vote (hey — a guy's got to have a hobby), you'll see offhand references to the Irgun and the Stern Gang (two Jewish guerrilla groups) as "Jewish terrorists" — even in its news pages. The label was considered obvious and beyond controversy.

Gingrich said that Palestine had to be invented, and this is true. It is also true of Israel, which didn't even have a name as it declared its independence in May 1947. President Truman's typewritten message recognizing the new state has "Jewish state" crossed out and "State of Israel" scrawled in with what looks like pencil.

Modern Jewish nationalism only goes back to 1896, when Theodor Herzl published his book, "Der Judenstaat" ("The Jewish State"), which put the question back in the public debate for the first time in centuries. From 1896 to 1948 is 52 years. That's how long it took for the Jewish state to go from an idea to a reality. Even if Palestinian nationalism started as late as 1967, 52 years later would be 2019. Eight years from now. I doubt it will take that long.

Michael Kinsley, a former editorial page editor of The Times, is a Bloomberg View columnist.

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 11:30am PT
As if.

Convoluted obfuscation of historical perspectives is your speciality.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Desert Bloomism: The Israeli myth that won’t spoil, wither, or die
by Nima Shirazi on July 13, 2011

But the truth is that the Palestinian soil didn't actually require expert Jewish agricultural know-how to produce fruits, vegetables, and the myriad other crops native to the land. Pre-Israel Palestine was not quite the barren dustbowl of Zionist fantasy - far from it.

In December 1945 and January 1946, a comprehensive Survey of Palestine was conducted and published by British Mandate authorities on behalf of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. The survey revealed that the land was rather prosperous for Arab Palestinians and Jewish famers alike.

During the 1944-1945 planting season, nearly 210,000 tons of grain were cultivated in Palestine, of which 193,376 tons were Arab crops, compared to 16,579 tons of Jewish crops. Almost 80,000 tons of olives were cultivated that year, over 78,000 tons of which were grown by Arab Palestinians. Of the over 244,800 tons of vegetables produced in Palestine that season, Arab farmers were responsible for more than 189,000 tons; of the 94,700 tons of fruit, Arab orchards produced 73,000 tons. Almost all of the region's citrus groves were Palestinian owned and operated. Nearly 143,000 tons of melons were cultivated, over 135,600 tons of which were Arab-produced, while almost all of the more than 1,680 tons of tobacco grown were on Arab farms, as were 20,000 tons of figs and 3,000 tons of almonds. Eighty percent of the 40-50,000 tons of grapes and 4-5 million liters of wine were produced in Arab vineyards. The survey found that in Jericho, Tiberias, and in the central coastal plain, "about 60 per cent. of the area (nearly 8,000 dunums) planted with bananas is Arab owned." The overall price of the Palestinian agricultural yield that season was more than £21,800,000. Jewish cultivation was responsible for nearly £4,711,000 compared with Palestinian Arab production of over £17,100,000, accounting for almost 80% of total value.

Less than two years later, in November 1947, the United Nations recommended that the indigenous Arab majority of Palestine (then consisting of about 70% of the population) establish a state of their own on 44% of its historic homeland, while the 30% Jewish minority (consisting mostly of recent immigrants from Europe) would get 56% of Palestine, despite the fact that the minority owned less than 8% of the land at the time. When that suggestion was understandably rejected by Palestinian representatives, a unilateral declaration established a Jewish State of Israel in Palestine and, in the ensuing war, Israel snatched an additional 22% of Palestine as its own.

In 1948, during what Israelis proudly refer to as their "War of Independence," over 450 Palestinian towns were ravaged, abandoned and destroyed, including villages that had signed non-aggression pacts with their Jewish neighbors; over 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their own homes. Ethnic cleansing and land theft laid the foundation of the new state. Zionist resettlement began immediately.


A recent report by the World Food Programme revealed that only 20% of Gaza's population could be classified as "food secure," while "the prevalence of Gaza household food insecurity remains very high at 54 percent with an additional 12 percent of households vulnerable to food insecurity." The report also found that 38% of Gaza residents live below the poverty line, noting that "[w]ithout social and humanitarian assistance, nearly half of the Gaza population would be under the poverty line (48.2 percent)."

Starving to death in their own once prosperous land - disallowed to trade goods that for centuries they had. Locked in an open air prison being choked to death. Dependent on the jailer's
generosity.

Is this the historical legacy you want your "Greater State of Israel" to leave for posterity.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 13, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Philo,
I'm not arguing with your statistics. My beef is with the Hamas leadership.
They're whole raison d'etre lies within the struggle from which they not only
profit but grow their corrupt enterprise. They're little different from an
LA street gang. If Israel were to give them everything they demand tomorrow
you would see little betterment of 'their' people because their only agenda
is that of destruction and instability.

To give credit where credit is due one has to give a nod to the Palestinian
Authority. People there have a much higher standard of living, don't have
to pay protection money to 'their' leaders, and have some semblance of hope.
There is certainly a fair degree of corruption on the West Bank too but they
are amateurs compared to the thugs in Gaza.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
It is a horribly rough life there not easily understood by those on the outside and in the dark of a biased western media. Not you necessarily Reilly since I think you are better read and informed but the average American in particular. The truth is a terror they can't or won't grasp.


Reilly you might be interested to research the true origins of the Hamas party. You'd likely be surprised.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Reilly

Hamas was actually elected because of their reputation for rectitude and service to their people versus the corruption in the Palestinian authority. (that's their domestic affairs, obviously their "Foreign affairs"regarding Israel are a different story

Of course the standard of living is worse on the west bank. Israel has bombed the crap out of them repeatedly and blockaded them. Who is to say how they would live if they weren't in an open air prison.

Yes they are violent and tend to terrorism, as the United States would also be if anyone came here and pushed us into the worst land, we'd nuke the whole world over it.

It's a screwed up situation. Jewish states are like Islamic states, the use of exclusive religion makes it hard for people to get along as a one-state secular solution would be easiest and best.

peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
It's a screwed up situation. Jewish states are like Islamic states, the use of exclusive religion makes it hard for people to get along as a one-state secular solution would be easiest and best.


A single secular democratic state.
Certainly best!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
The Nazis were fond of saving that Poland didn't exist because it had been previously missing from the maps of Europe for a hundred years. They too were really good at demonizing the 'others' to legitimize the illegality of there actions.

Poland always existed because of the PEOPLE of Poland.
Much like Palestine is the PEOPLE not the name.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 01:41pm PT

Trade off or trade on for the Palestinians?
15.04.11 @ 18:53
RELATED Ashton goes against US and Israel on Hamas EU diplomats urge Russia to allow gay pride march MEPs defend Ashton from EU member states
BY BERND NILLES

On the fringes of a meeting with key donors to the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) on Wednesday (13 April), EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton announced a trade agreement between the EU and the Palestinian Authority.

This agreement will give agricultural and fish products from the West Bank and Gaza Strip immediate duty free access to the EU market. This facilitation of Palestinian trade aims at supporting the EU-aided process of building a viable Palestinian state to live alongside Israel in peace and security.

The question, however, is how far this agreement can contribute to Palestinian development as long as exports from Gaza and the West Bank continue to be hampered by Israeli restrictions.

Members of the international alliance of Catholic development agencies, CIDSE, support both Israeli and Palestinian partners on the ground. They observe that essential elements of the illegal blockade of Gaza (i.e. general bans on export, import of construction materials, and entry and exit of persons), are still in place.


The export ban in particular is undermining the revival of industries and employment and keeping many Gazans dependent on aid. Despite Israel's promises in December 2010 to allow more exports from Gaza, products exiting Gaza in the last weeks of March represented less than a mere 2 percent of pre-blockade export levels.

The situation has been worsened by last month's permanent closure of Karni, Gaza's main commercial crossing with a capacity of 1,000 trucks per day, in contrast to Israel's earlier commitment to open further crossings. This leaves Kerem Shalom crossing, with a current capacity of no more than 250 truckloads a day, as the only permanent access point.

Although less severe than in Gaza, movement and access restrictions in the West Bank also impede Palestinians' access to markets, both internal and external. Despite some improvement, the UN's humanitarian agency OCHA reports that there are still 516 permanent checkpoints and obstacles to movement in the West Bank, as well as hundreds of ad hoc 'flying' checkpoints.

These hinder movement between rural areas and Palestinian towns, which are already fragmented by illegal Israeli settlements and their transport and security infrastructure. This is a serious obstacle for Palestinian farmers trying to access their lands or transport their products to be exported. Access to the Jordan Valley, East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank beyond the Wall also remains particularly difficult.

The EU has taken a significant step for development in the oPt by removing barriers to Palestinian trade. However, Palestinian products will have difficulty reaching our shores in the first place, unless the EU can convince Israel to do the same, in accordance with international humanitarian law.

The Palestinians cannot build their future until their economy is truly unlocked.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
Starving to death in their own once prosperous land - disallowed to trade goods that for centuries they had. Locked in an open air prison being choked to death. Dependent on the jailer's
generosity.

Is this the historical legacy you want your "Greater State of Israel" to leave for posterity.


Well?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
And how much real damage was caused?
As much as an F 16 or an Apache gunship regularly does?


What might you do if your family were starving?
A recent report by the World Food Programme revealed that only 20% of Gaza's population could be classified as "food secure," while "the prevalence of Gaza household food insecurity remains very high at 54 percent with an additional 12 percent of households vulnerable to food insecurity." The report also found that 38% of Gaza residents live below the poverty line, noting that "[w]ithout social and humanitarian assistance, nearly half of the Gaza population would be under the poverty line (48.2 percent)."

What would Jesus do?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 13, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
What's to accept? The borders Israel never stop moving.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 13, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
And they get all they want, from the US taxpayers, their Socialist Sugar Daddy
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 13, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
One other reason to strongly dislike the Taliban in Pakistan;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073562/Forty-students-held-basement-chains-police-raiding-Islamic-seminary-thought-Taliban-training-centre.html

Thank God the police raided that palace of hate.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 13, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
Forty-five students, among them young children, were discovered held in chains in a basement when police raided an Islamic seminary in Pakistan last night.
The male students, some said to be as young as 12 but appearing even younger, were found in what amounted to a dungeon at the Madrassa Zakarya in the Sohrab Goth district of Karachi.
Led barefoot from their prison, captives told officers they had suffered regular beatings and been hung upside down as a form of punishment.









Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073562/Forty-students-held-basement-chains-police-raiding-Islamic-seminary-thought-Taliban-training-centre.html#ixzz1gSkoe724
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 13, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
Well, wes, it is endemic in their culture. But I'm sure you'll say it's equally endemic in Christian churches.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 13, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
FACT: no mention of Islamic priests fuking little boys


Dig deeper if you can. It's prevalent in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Nuns abuse kids, how? Smacking them when they misbehave? Hardly beatings and shacklings after kidnapping kids.

Atheist liars like you want to equivocate the two religions. Thusly, bringing down the dominant religion in the US. That is your goal. And the tool you use is the 1st Amendment, but you'd really like to kill religious speech in public. Admit it. I know your type. You couch it in the separation of church and state, but you just HATE religious people, mainly Christians who are white.

I know your type very well.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 13, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
A bit more worrisome and much closer to home.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/13/us-probing-alleged-cyberattack-plot-iran-venezuela/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 13, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
So a frog thinks we didn't fight fair?

BFD

There's nothing "fair" about the "western way of war".

It's been kicking ass since the Greeks opened a can of whoopass on the Persians at Marathon.

See VDH for a complete exposition.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 14, 2011 - 11:52am PT
Israel, Isaac and the Return of Human Sacrifice
Why have liberal Westerners turned their backs on the Jewish state?.Article Comments (225) more in Opinion | Find New $LINKTEXTFIND$ ».
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By DAVID MAMET
As Iran races toward the bomb, many observers seem to think the greater threat is the possibility that Israel might act against its nuclear program. Which raises the question: What should it mean if, God forbid, militant Islam through force of arms, and with the supine permission of the West, succeeds in the destruction of the Jewish State?

1) That the Jewish People would no longer have their ancestral home;

2) That they should have no home.

At the Versailles Peace Conference, Woodrow Wilson stated as an evident moral proposition that each people should have the right to national self-determination. The West, thereafter, fought not for empire, nor national expansion, but in self-defense, or in defense of this proposition. But, for the Jewish State, the Liberal West puts the proposition aside.

Since its foundation Israel has turned the other cheek. Eric Hoffer wrote that Israel is the only country the world expects to act like Christians. Some Jews say that the Arabs have a better public relations apparatus. They do not need one. For the Liberal West does not need convincing. It is thrilled merely to accept an excuse to rescind what it regards as a colossal error.

The Liberal West has, for decades, indulged itself in an orgy of self-flagellation. We have enjoyed comfort and security, but these, in the absence of gratitude and patriotism, cause insecurity. This attempted cure for insecurity can be seen in protestations of our worthlessness, and the indictment of private property.

But no one in the affluent West and no one among the various protesters of various supposed injustices is prepared to act in accordance with his protestations. The opponent of "The Corporation" is still going to use the iPhone which permits him to mass with his like. The celebrities acting out at Occupy meetings will still invest their surplus capital, and the supposed champion of the dispossessed in the Levant will not only scoff at American Indian claims to land he has come to understand as his—he will lobby the City Council to have the homeless shelter built anywhere but on his block.

The brave preceptors who would like to end Poverty, War, Exploitation, Colonialism, Inequality and so on, stop at the proclamation. How may they synchronize their wise fervor with their inaction?

How may they still the resultant anxiety? The Left's answer is the oldest in the world: by appeal to The Gods. But how may The Gods be appeased? The immemorial answer is: By human sacrifice.

What is the essence of the Torah? It is not the Ten Commandments, these were known, and the practice of most aspired to by every civilization. Rabbi Lawrence Kushner teaches they are merely a Calling Card; to wit: "remember me . . . ?"

The essence of the Torah is the Akedah, the Binding of Isaac. The God of Hosts spoke to Abraham, as the various desert gods had spoken to the nomads for thousands of years: "If you wish me to relieve your anxiety, give me the most precious thing you have."

So God's call to Abraham was neither unusual nor, perhaps, unexpected. God had told Abraham to leave his people and his home, and go to the place which God would point out to him. And God told Abraham to take his son up the mountain and kill him, as humans had done for tens of thousands of years.

Now, however, for the first time in history, the narrative changed. The sacrifice, Isaac, spoke back. He asked his father, "Where is the Goat we are to sacrifice?" This was the voice of conscience, and Abraham's hand, as it descended with the knife, was stayed. This was the Birth of the West, and the birth of the West's burden, which is conscience.

Previously the anxiety and fear attendant upon all human life was understood as Fear of the Gods, and dealt with by propitiation, which is to say by sacrifice. Now, however, the human burden was not to give The Gods what one imagined, in one's fear, that they might want, but do, in conscience, those things one understood God to require.

In abandonment of the state of Israel, the West reverts to pagan sacrifice, once again, making a burnt offering not of that which one possesses, but of that which is another's. As Realpolitik, the Liberal West's anti-Semitism can be understood as like Chamberlain's offering of Czechoslovakia to Hitler, a sop thrown to terrorism. On the level of conscience, it is a renewal of the debate on human sacrifice.

Mr. Mamet is a playwright and screenwriter.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 14, 2011 - 11:53am PT
ditto tgt

read hanson's "carnage and culture"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 14, 2011 - 12:55pm PT



Terrorists blow up girls school in Tank

TANK: Unidentified terrorists on Tuesday blew up Government Girls High School in village Amakhel in Mulazai jurisdiction, however, no casualty was reported. DSP Basheer Khan told media the terrorists had planted an explosive device on the outer-wall of the school and detonated it with a remote-control device, causing damage to the structure of the building. Later, police cordoned off the area and defused another bomb. Police have registered a case against unidentified outlaws and started investigation. app



http://www.rantburg.com/
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 14, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
Now how did they manage to fit a whole girl's school inside a tank?



lol
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 14, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
Fact: Iraq war officially over today, no Mission Accomplished banners.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 14, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
blurring, as usual you claim to know something but prove you don't know sh#t.

What do you think I'm incorrect about?

Fact: Iraq war officially over today, no Mission Accomplished banners.


What does officially mean? You do realize we'll be there for a long time, right?

And the "mission" was accomplished a while ago when Saddam and his crazy sons were removed from power.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 14, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
As usual, Wes throws out sh#t and it manages to come back to his face. No specifics, Wes? What exactly was I wrong about in my posts on this particular thread?

Let me know.

You always try to paint with a broad brush without being specific in your attacks. Your credibility suffers as a result, IMO.

You are weak and have no counter-arguements, just sh#t flying back into your face.

It's really no way to have an intelligent discourse. You know that, right, because you are so smart?

Please respond where I was wrong.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 14, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
Nice job proving my point about you, Wes....
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 15, 2011 - 09:28am PT
suicide by political correctness:


December 15, 2011 12:00 A.M.

What’s Islam Got to Do with It?
The role of Islam in terrorism should not be banned from discussion.


Is there anything Islamic about Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps? On what basis does Ayman al-Zawahiri, now al-Qaeda’s leader, formerly the head of Egyptian Islamic Jihad, claim to be a jihadi — an Islamic warrior? Do groups that justify terrorism on the basis of Islam have a doctrinal leg to stand on?

Let’s not start by answering these questions. Let’s start by agreeing that such questions need to be asked — not suppressed. Yet right now suppression seems to be the goal of senior officials in the Obama administration. A report by the Westminster Institute’s Katharine C. Gorka notes: “Key national security documents have already excised all terminology that associates terrorism with Islam or Islamic concepts such as jihad.”

She cites evidence that those who persist in using such terminology are being blacklisted — disqualified from working with federal agencies. Gorka asks: “If counter-terrorism professionals are not allowed to acknowledge that a person motivated by jihadist ideology, or by such Islamist ideologues as Sayyid Qutb or Abu’l-A’la Mawdudi, may be inclined towards acts of violence against Americans, how will they be able to identify and deter potential attackers?”

Qutb, of course, was the “intellectual godfather” of modern Islamism. He proclaimed that “a Muslim has no nationality except his belief,” and that Islam is “not a ‘religion’ in the sense this term is commonly understood.” Instead, Islam is meant to encompass “all fields of living,” emphatically including politics and economics. He opposed democratic systems of governance because they replace God’s laws with man’s laws, thereby blasphemously diminishing the former and elevating the latter. A member of the Muslim Brotherhood, Qutb was executed in Egypt in 1966.

Mawdudi was a Pakistani who argued that “the aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution.” He advocated that Muslims begin by transforming the states in which they live into “Islamic states.” Once those Islamic states have “power and resources,” their obligation is to “fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place. . . . Their ultimate objective is none other than world revolution.” It’s worth noting that while Mawdudi did not suffer most infidels gladly, he wrote admiringly of the “ingenious and mighty leadership of Hitler and his comrades.”

I have encountered senior government officials who were unfamiliar with Qutb, Mawdudi, and other radical Muslim voices. That’s disturbing. But how much worse if it has now become the policy of the U.S. government to demand ignorance, to insist upon it as a matter of principle and strategy?

During a hearing earlier this month, Rep. Dan Lungren (R., Calif.) repeatedly asked Assistant Defense Secretary for Homeland Defense Paul Stockton whether America is “at war with violent Islamist extremism.” Stockton repeatedly insisted that America is at war only with “al-Qaeda and its allies” and “violent extremism.” An exasperated Lungren stressed that he understood — that he was making a distinction between “violent Islamist extremism” and Islam. Stockton replied: “Sir, with great respect, I don’t believe it’s helpful to frame our adversary as Islamic with any set of qualifiers that we might add, because we are not at war with Islam.”

Gorka comments: “The Obama administration is right to assert that America is not at war with Islam, but to deny that a violent strain of Islam is inspiring a wave of terrorist attacks against Americans and American targets is to invite disaster.”

I’d add this: Those who tar all Muslims with a single brush make a serious mistake, unwittingly assisting not just bin Ladenists, but also Iran’s theocrats. Muslim liberals and reformers should be our allies in the war that must be waged against totalitarianism and supremacism in their contemporary manifestations.

But combining sensitivity and intellectual honesty is not so difficult. To acknowledge that Nazism was a German ideology hardly makes one a Germanophobe. You can love Italy while recognizing that Fascism was deeply rooted in Italian soil. Russia gave the world Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky. It also gave us Leninism and Stalinism. And can you imagine the U.S. government banning any linkage of the Spanish Inquisition with the Vatican — lest it offend Roman Catholics?

The radical ideologies that today most threaten America, Israel, and Europe arise from within the Muslim world and are justified by fundamentalist interpretations of Islamic scripture. Those who lead movements and regimes based on these ideologies have been inspired by the Islamic conquests of centuries past. They believe a second age of Islamic power and glory is achievable — if Muslims are willing to fight for it as did Mohammad, his companions, and the “Soldiers of Allah” (a phrase, you may recall, that the “violent extremist” Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan proudly printed on his calling cards).

Muslim liberals and reformers do not deny this. Those who do deny it are not Muslim liberals or reformers — but they are exerting influence at the highest levels of the U.S. government.

That can be explained in part by the fact that in the Middle East there is an enormous amount of money — nearly every penny of it derived from the sale of oil to the West — backing those who seek to revive Islamic imperialism and colonialism.

To forbid American officials and those who work with them from even discussing such matters is either an attempt at appeasement that is sure to fail or a manifestation of madness that, if not checked, can only contribute to the West’s decline and, ultimately, submission.

— Clifford D. May is president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a policy institute focusing on national security and foreign policy.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 15, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
Food for thought, easy as 1,2 3 - Israel attacks Iran, US takes a huge hit and we lose...big.

1) 2005 link: Iran investigating EMP attack on US.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44017



2) Recent news, this comes through from several sources. Iran already has a few Nucs from the old USSR.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/27/iran-already-has-nuclear-weapons/




3) Real recent Iranian announcement 9/28/2011:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/iran-send-navy-us-coast-reports/story?id=14623277#.Tupptla9aCg

"Iran plans to send Navy vessels steaming across the Atlantic and towards the U.S. to build up an open sea presence along the marine border with the east coast, according to the Iranian Navy's top commander."

Conclusion? An Iranian EMP attack resulting in the entire US eastern seaboard shutting down - Or as Admiral Mullen recent noted: "unintended consequences". Hopefully the central command is all over this already.

Stay stockpiled my friends.



BTW Fatty, why would Israel send a hundred or 2 hundred planes (if the media or this thread are to be believed) when they could just fire a single missile and turn off all of the lights over Iran?

Some EMP info: http://textfiles.com/survival/emp.pro

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
British doctor shot dead by the Taliban was part of a humanitarian mission that had helped 2,000 Afghans, an inquest heard yesterday.
Dr Karen Woo was executed alongside nine other aid workers after they tried to cross a mountain river in August last year.
...
Shortly before her death she had helped to save the life of a baby boy who was struggling to breathe




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2074182/Saviour-2-000-Afghans-saved-babys-life-executed-Taliban.html
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Dec 15, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 16, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
"What is the utility of arguing with stupid Americans?
Endless cycles of stupidity."


because these people are so much more enlightened:

http://www.nowlebanon.com/BlogDetails.aspx?TID=2089&FID=6



dmt, there was a nation that practiced the kind of national security you want for america...how did that work out for tibet?


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 20, 2011 - 06:33am PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 20, 2011 - 10:34am PT
Blaming the Jews—Again
Elliott Abrams
December 20, 2011 8:52 AM


If you were an anti-Semite dedicated to spreading your hatred of Jews, what charges exactly would you make in 21st century America?

You would avoid the blood libel—too medieval to write of sacrificing Christian children to make Passover matzo. That kind of stuff circulates in Arab lands or Pakistan, but won’t sell in suburban America. And the “Christ-killer” material is also dated, what with Vatican II, Evangelical support for Israel, and the like.

There are two charges you would make. First, the rich Jews control our government. Second, those Jews are trying to push America into war so your sons will have to fight for Israel.

In the last week that is exactly what we have seen. First came the Thomas Friedman column in the New York Times: “I sure hope that Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, understands that the standing ovation he got in Congress this year was not for his politics. That ovation was bought and paid for by the Israel lobby.” Perhaps it was jealousy from seeing Walt and Mearsheimer sell all those books with this line, but Friedman here tips right into the swamps.

And now we have Joe Klein, in Time magazine, in a section accurately entitled “Swampland”: “Iowa Republicans are not neoconservatives. Ron Paul has gained ground after a debate in which his refusal to join the Iran warhawks was front and center. Indeed, in my travels around the country, I don’t meet many neoconservatives outside of Washington and New York. It’s one thing to just adore Israel, as the evangelical Christians do; it’s another thing entirely to send American kids off to war, yet again, to fight for Israel’s national security.”

Now, Klein has chosen his medium well: Time has a history of anti-Semitism, illustrated by its famous 1977 story about Israel’s prime minister that began “Menachem Begin (rhymes with Fagin).” But Klein’s thoughts are about as ugly as ever appear outside of Pat Buchanan’s publications. “There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East-the Israeli Defense Ministry and its amen corner in the United States,” Buchanan said in 1990.

How different is that from what Klein just wrote? After all, Klein is saying (1) neoconservatives are Jews, and Jews are neoconservatives; (2) Evangelicals like Israel but they are real Americans who put their own country first, unlike Jews; (3) and what those Jews/neoconservatives really want is to send American boys off to fight Israel’s wars, sparing Israeli kids and of course their own kids, who are apparently not “American kids” and anyway do not fight for their country. Of course Klein simply ignores the possibility that concern about the Iranian nuclear program does not make one a warmongering neoconservative, and actually extends even to Christians. Yesterday Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta said, “The United States does not want Iran to develop a nuclear weapon. That's a red line for us and that's a red line, obviously, for the Israelis. If we have to do it we will deal with it....If they proceed and we get intelligence that they are proceeding with developing a nuclear weapon then we will take whatever steps necessary to stop it.” Bought and paid for? Sending American kids off to fight for Israel's security?

These two recent statements are as vicious as it gets in the mainstream media, and here we have two Jews—Friedman and Klein—spreading the two major themes of contemporary American anti-Semitism. Why? Why now?

Why does it matter? Perhaps it is their hatred of Israel’s right of center government, or of modern Israel, or of the rise of Orthodoxy in Israel and in the American Jewish community. Let us not descend into such analyses when what matters is not abnormal psychology but the bounds of public discourse. Once upon a time, William F. Buckley banned Pat Buchanan from the pages of National Review and in essence drummed him out of the conservative movement for such accusations. Today, where are the Anti-Defamation League, and the American Jewish Committee, and all the Jewish “defense” organizations? Where are all the Jewish groups which have given Klein and Friedman awards, demanding them back? Where are Jewish Democrats in Congress, who have no doubt wined and dined both Klein and Friedman in a thousand dinner parties, and Congressional leaders from Nancy Pelosi to Harry Reid? And what about our other supposed moral leaders, religious, intellectual, or political?

It isn’t a small matter, because as we have learned the hard way with Walt and Mearsheimer, once the infection of anti-Semitism enters the mass media and the academy, it grows and grows. What begins as a “controversial statement” ends up on every reading list. Klein and Friedman, whatever their personal motivations for these statements, are helping popularize and make acceptable anti-Semitism in America. Their own publications will no doubt reward them for their advanced thinking. Will the rest of our society?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 20, 2011 - 11:48am PT
"Miss Bush's audacity".



Waaahahahahaha.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 20, 2011 - 11:51am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/iran-is-too-rational-to-attack-israel-1.402481
blished 03:11 20.12.11Latest update 03:11 20.12.11

Iran is too rational to attack Israel
Israel's policy makers now face a complicated dilemma regarding Iran's nuclear program: Should they work on the assumption that mutual deterrence of the Cold War variety is applicable to the Iranian situation?

By Reuven Pedatzur


We should therefore note Israel's error when it magnifies the Iranian threat and depicts it as an existential threat. Israel's deterrent capability suffices to prevent any Iranian leader from entertaining thoughts about firing a nuclear warhead at it. The time has come to stop complaining about the boogeyman of existential threat and desist from jingoistic declarations that sometimes create a dangerous dynamic of escalation.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 20, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8968755/Syrian-forces-accused-of-machine-gunning-hundreds-of-deserting-soldiers.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 20, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
You're not a conservative and the picture you posted in several locations of our President as a chimp is total bullshit and unjustifiable. It degrades yourself, other liberals, and any debate you are trying to have.

Glanton posted:
Right ole buddy. It'll stay just as a subtle reminder as to how we conservatives really feel about our current situation. And besides, it just bumped another climbing thread off the front page and that is what we are really trying to accomplish here is it not? I mean, you being the MANLEB and all,(with substantial monetary contributions), absolutely deserve to be heard.

Walk away if you are so disturbed. Turn the station. New channel....post a climbing photo.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 20, 2011 - 07:51pm PT

There is your climbing pic.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
Now what?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 20, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
Today's outrage brought to you by the "religion of peas"

http://europenews.dk/en/node/50635?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 20, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
You folks in Colo. have all the fun Philo! Woot! Closest thing we have to ice around here is in the freezer....well, I saw a dribble half way up in the gorge yesterday, but the 800' choss drytool to go do a half pitch of thin ice would be a sufferfest. I don't even climb ice anymore. My buddy does, I was working out @ an hour ago and he was mentioning it. I was commenting that selling a couple of Chouinard Ice tools like he did just a bit ago for $20 each was insane:-)

And now, back to ST insanity...thanks for the ice climbing picture sir!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 21, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 24, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/2011122495928144388.html
The real 'invented' people
Newt Gingrich's controversial statement begs the question: Who invented a nationality? The Palestinians or the Israelis?
Last Modified: 24 Dec 2011 12:57

It is hard to believe that anyone who defends Israel's legitimacy as a state would buy into former Speaker Newt Gingrich's argument that Palestine is an "invented nation".

The singular triumph of the Zionist movement is that it invented a state and a people - Israel and the Israelis - from scratch. The first Hebrew-speaking child in 1900 years, Ittamar Ben-Avi, was not born until 1882. His father, the brilliant linguist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, created a modern language for him to speak by improvising from the language of the Bible.

The founder of the Israeli state was Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), an assimilated Viennese writer who was convinced by the Dreyfus trial in France - and the horrendous right-wing anti-Semitism that resulted from it - that Jews had to get out of Europe.

In 1897, he wrote the book that would essentially inaugurate the Zionist movement. It was called Der Judenstaat (meaning "the Jews' state" or "the Jewish State"), which was his proposal for moving the Jews out of Europe and into their own country.

He didn't specify where the Jewish homeland should be. He was more concerned about quickly obtaining territory anywhere for Jews to seek refuge.

Later, he decided that Palestine made the most sense because that was where the Jewish people both began and exercised self-determination in ancient times, and where there already was a small minority of Jews. But he also spoke of finding a place in Africa or the Americas if Palestine was unavailable.

The reaction to Herzl's idea was primarily that he was a bit crazy. Jews committed to assimilation insisted that Jews were not a nation, but a religious faith. Their nationalities were French, German, Polish, Iraqi or American - not some imaginary Jewish nationality that had not existed for 1900 years.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 24, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
Israelis are not just Jews who happen to live in Palestine, even though the concept of Israel-ness started just over a hundred years ago as nothing but an idea. They are Israelis, entitled to self-determination, peace and security in their own land.

And the Palestinians are every bit as much a nation. If the ultimate definition of authentic nationhood is continuous residence in a land for thousands of years, the Palestinian claim to nationhood is ironclad. They never left Palestine (except for those who either emigrated or became refugees after the establishment of Israel).
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Your historical claim for "Israel" over "Palestine" is the worst lying crap ever Fatty.

In world history, the existence of a unified politically independent Israel lasted a few generations, King Saul, David and Soloman, before it split into a tiny kingdom of Soloman's sons and that of Judah and those didn't last long before being repeatedly conquered.

You think Arabs didn't have the place for a few generations in the past 3000 years

Peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 29, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
This comment from over at Rantburg catches the probable future for the region.

Just hope it doesn't go nuke in the process.

#9 Methinks you can plot a general trend downward for civilization, the rule of law, and the social contract from about the time of the death of Ali to now. There was a vast awakening of intellectual growth in the ME until Tamerlane came on the scene and destroyed Baghdad University and slaughtered the population, supposedly building four pyramids at the corners of the city of human heads, some say the pyramids were sixty feet high..
Then the culture rose againt to its pennacle under Suliman the Great...then it declined again, sharp up tick with oil, sharp downward spiral with spread of Wahabism funded with oil. Even sharper downward spiral with jihadists funded by self loathing and guilt ridden wealthy arabs (much like our limosine liberals and liberal Jews)...I say that the whole place is going to come apart and look like Somalia in about five years. The tribal tradition is stronger than governments of men so look for vast quantities of post 20th century technology to be rusting in the desert and nomads fashioning sabers out of front bumpers of junked Mercedes Benzes and Maybachs...That super tall building in Abu Dahbi will be a mineret for a mosque and birds will roost in the hotels and condominiums...
Posted by Bill Clinton 2011-12-29 22:06||
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
Oh, the Palestinians did live on the land, but they were never bright enough to create a nation, unlike the Jews who created Israel.



God, you are really a stupid man Fattrad.

The "jews" did NOT "create" Israel.

Israel was "created" after WW2 by the Allies.

For just once, read and study your facts and history BEFORE shooting your mouth off.



On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews soon after. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, established the state of Israel as an independent state, with the rest of the British Mandate of Palestine split into areas controlled by Egypt and Transjordan.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 31, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
Those awesome liberated Egyptians started recycling paper!!!!

Unfortunately in came by burning books from the Institue of Egypt. Rare texts.

F*#king savages...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/12/pictures/111220-egypt-cairo-protests-fire-scientific-complex-world-science/

I'm really close to just saying, "We're done with you people, go back to the 13th century...."

They appear to incompatible with the current world.

Uganda has the same problem;
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/uganda/article_1314828.html

These people don't realize they are setting the stage for a new Crusade. Christians will only be Christian for so long.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 7, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Let's all try to remember who started this war - and it going to become one. The Christians will be portrayed as the evil-doers when they finally start defending themselvses against Boko Haram and it's affiliates.

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=336646&D=2012-01-07&SO=&HC=1

Oh, and Boko Haram is roughly translated as "Western education is sin"



The is going to be Kosovo part II

I may need to start a North Africa thread;

3000 dead in South Sudan in 1 f*#king week, mostly women and children???
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=336641&D=2012-01-07&SO=&HC=3

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 9, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
Werner posted this over on the Chris Hedges thread. I thought it should be over here. Werner, whats the story here?
WBraun climber said:

Jan 5, 2012 - 08:58am PT
"I have a friend who was just recently in Iran and it's looking grim. He expects World War III by March or April ..... "

BTW, I heard it that from the US/Israel perspective it was scheduled for sometime in the fall. Is that the Iranian view?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 16, 2012 - 11:48am PT
If it's all about the Jooos, why are the Hezbullies branching out to Thailand?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16571576
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 18, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Now the Hezbullies are shooting rockets at Syrian civilians?

http://www.worldnewstribune.com/2012/01/17/iran-intervenes-in-syria-hizbullah-launches-first-combat-rocket-salvo/

no Joos there either.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 19, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
If it's all about the Jooos, why are the Hezbullies branching out to Thailand?

TGT, I know you know this, but for those who don't it's because these is a radical Islamist terror campaign in Southern Thailand. It's a Buddhist/Muslim conflict rooted in the Southern Islamists trying start their own break-away country.

The Buddhists in the north don't agree with this notion. The muslims are following a Maoist technique of targeting teachers and LEO too. Weird...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 20, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2007/When-Will-We-See-Red-Over-Green-on-Blue-Murder-in-Afghanistan.aspx
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 21, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Awesome! Only 162 dead and counting in Nigeria!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/9030066/Terror-attacks-in-Kano-Nigeria-kill-at-least-162.html

f*#king savages...these bastards will regret how this is going to end.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 21, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
http://bikyamasr.com/53028/egyptian-women-cane-morality-police/#.TwqcPh5kXi8.facebook

Don't think I'd want to be underwriting the fire insurance for that beauty salon right now.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 21, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
I'm almost ready to go Ron Paul on these dickweeds.

F*#k 'em!!!! The boys need to come home and defend OUR borders, not those of asshats and despots.

Let the Islamists cut their own throats. F*#k 'em!!!

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 26, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
FatAss will have no sound re-butt-all to this.
Watch his non-sequiturness squirm out something about Albright with the best deal ever chasing a fleeing Arafat down the street.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 26, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
hen the European embargo on Iranian oil and the Iranian national bank freeze kick in, a war of attrition will unfold as Iran carries out sporadic strait closures, either by mining the waterway or firing missiles at tankers from unmarked speedboats.

These operations will push up the price of oil and so drum home to oil-dependent Asian and European governments the high cost to them of the alternate opening and closing of the Strait of Hormuz.

A Saudi official said Wednesday, Jan. 1, that Tehran's threats to punish Riyadh for offering to make up the shortfall incurred from the oil embargo against Iran "could be seen by Saudi Arabia as an act of war."

The Iranian threats followed the pledge made this week by Saudi Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi to raise daily production by up to 2.7 million barrels per day to supply the countries caught short of supplies from Iran.

However, the Saudi minister could not say how the oil would make its way out of the Persian Gulf to destination if the Strait of Hormuz were to be shuttered partially or fully.

Military and Gulf sources report that Persian Gulf capitals are talking less these days about an outbreak of armed hostilities over Iran's nuclear program and more about the coming war over the oil shipping routes out to market.

The Dubai general's remarks Thursday about an imminent conflict referred not only to the flow of American reinforcements to the Gulf region but also to the new deployments of the armies of Gulf Cooperation Council states. They are moving into position in expectation of a military confrontation with Iran.

From Debka, not always a reliable source, but probably right on the money this time.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
and post-attack situations are considered less perilous


And if they end up strewing highly radioactive fallout all over the area will they clean up their mess?
Or will the US have to foot that bill also?
Will they cry foul when the jet stream brings it all back to them?



Then there was the editor of the Atlanta Jewish Times, who advocated in an editorial that the Israeli secret service assassinate President Obama.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/assassinate-obama-if-he-wont-attack-iran-for-israel-jewish-monthly-suggests/article2310783/

No Friends to US!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jan 27, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
No building permit

A Palestinian home construction worker screams in pain, Jan. 25, after an Israeli soldier drove a trailer hooked to a tractor over his legs near Yatta, West Bank. Israeli forces seized equipment because they said the workers were building a house in an area where Israel prevents Palestinians from building.


More of the same Fatty now with Sheldon Adelson, the billionaire casino mogul bankrolling Newt Gingrich’s super PAC isn’t trying to “buy” a presidency.

Adelson owns a newspaper in Israel, 'Israel HaYom,' that backs conservative Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and adamantly opposes any peace settlement with the Palestinians.

“All we care about is being good Zionists, being good citizens of Israel, because even though I am not Israeli born, Israel is in my heart,”
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
How's that Illegal Occupation working out for you DaftRat?

Makin' friends & influencin' people.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
There is no occupation of land that will never be part of a Palestinian state, if it ever happens.
Were you home schooled or did you just sit on your kibbutz through public school?



It's a shame revisionist history doesn't work in the real world.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jan 27, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
Fatty I wrote;

“How about your wonderful Mitt baby that you want to be President with wanting to give Congress more authority to move forward in expanding the power of trade to break down barriers ties as his love for Qualified Industrial Zone programs in that area. Creating more.”

Mitt baby wrote article about it on Campaign 2008 “American’s Next Foreign Policy” you can read it in Foreign Affairs July/August 2007. Obama wrote his as well. Read it. You should try to know your position or change [flip flop] on your candidate before making points. Seems like they all do you and your fellow Republicans.

Funny thing about it I was putting some of my periodicals to rest or store and that one was just about to go. So read it.

Wonder if I try to donate my million, ok! Thousands of political/ periodicals books to a Arizona library if they would burn it.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 27, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Unlike Philo, I don't believe that the Jews should just shut the f*#k up and march off to the gas chambers again. There are still holocaust survivors alive that remember the event. Americans memory may only be 10 min long, but it isn't that way for Jews, nor should it be. They were "good Germans" back then (exuding the Jewish Poles/Warsaw uprising heroes here) and did what they were told, followed the law and took orders and it didn't work out then for them. Nor did the other hundreds of similar events earlier throughout many centuries, which were termed "Pogroms", work out for them. White people remember the chant "In 14 hundred and Ninty two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue". Jews have a distinctly different memory of it which in most history courses is still called the Spanish Inquisition. They will be and should be proactive in this instance. No next holocaust should be allowed to form. Never again.

The leaders of Iran have repeatedly pitched out there that either the Jews must be gone or Israel must be gone, depending on your translation. If I only get to chose one country to survive here, which is where Iran is driving the bus via their choices, I say F*#k Iran. They're not marching any Jews into the sea or anywhere else without some pain of their own and serious anguish on their part. Not a single damned Jew. Bank on that. So they'd best let their nuclear program go now and open their country fully to international monitors. The Iranians have the capacity right now to have peace....or not. They are choosing not. Daily. In many ways. F*#K EM if they walk away from peace. F*#k em hard before they f*#k you or even a single Jew.

Would I like the Palestinians and the Jews to have peace? Yes. However, until that day happens, anyone expecting jews to roll over and be peacefully killed is fooling themselves. Won't happen. There are still holocaust survivors alive. A group of people who have repeated said the kinds of things the Iran leadership has said can not be allowed to be able to act on their impulses. Much like you don't allow mentally ill people who have consistently and repeatedly threatened you access to a hand gun, it would be even crazier to let one go get a machine gun. And lots of bullets. It can't happen. Can't. Does my own country have some issues that cause others to mistrust it. Most assuredly, we're far from perfect, and we try to work on those issues and we carry a lot of baggage. This isn't about us. It's about Iran.

Last year I bet an ounce of gold that gas prices will hit $5.00 or over before this year ends in the US, strictly basing it on this event. Wish it could be otherwise. I've met a lot of Iranians and they have all seemed like good folks. Yet it is the Iranians and their leaders choosing a bad path that is causing this conflict to bear down on the world like a brakeless train down a hill with a sharp turn at the bottom. Their distrust of the US, Israel, and in fact Saudi Arabia and Sunni Muslims in general is too strong for them to do the right thing. They already find ways to attack the Israelis via proxy, and then go looking to develop those weapons that will annihilate the Jews on a scale which a gas chamber and oversized ovens never could.

Never forget, never forgive and never again Phil - never. Never Again, Always and Forever. Never, never. http://www.neveragain.org/

That's my opinion, you've said yours at least a hundred times above, my turn now, that's it in a nutshell.

Regards to all!

Bill

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 27, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
Well said, Bill. There are some who think it can't ever happen again, but that's pretty naive, especially if you look at what is going on around the world, the stuff that the MSM largely ignores.

This is why I get so angry sometimes. I watch what is happening, pretty closely.

The ethnic/religious violence that goes on in Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, and Mali goes almost un-noticed by most. And that is just the large-scale stuff.

I'd add Egypt but that DOES get some coverage.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Unlike Philo, I don't believe that the Jews should just shut the f*#k up and march off to the gas chambers again.
Couchmaster, that is a bald faced lie and a despicable comment and you know it.
I have never even intimated such a thing.
To insinuate that I did demonstrates a level of pathetic-ness in your personal character.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/massive-us-military-buildup-on-two-strategic-islands-socotra-and-masirah/
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Jan 27, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
A lengthy but good article on the Israel-Iran conflict:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/magazine/will-israel-attack-iran.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

(Apologies if this article has already been posted somewhere on the forum.)
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Anusbrains I DO NOT support any of those groups. NONE!



Nor do I support the Zionist criminals and their ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.

Get it o naive one?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OS-PmhhxPG4#!
dmons

climber
Jan 28, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
the prevelant view in iran is that the Israelites are a sack full of pussies

all the guns in the world but afraid of those who does math they dont like

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 29, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=338034&D=2012-01-29&SO=&HC=1

These nefarious little Iranian bastards are really asking for it....

And it's a good thing Egypt is 'liberated' now...

http://www.israellycool.com/2012/01/26/foreign-woman-attacked-in-egypts-tahrir-square/

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 29, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
This one's for Lolli and her Scandanavian friends;

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=338024&D=2012-01-29&SO=&HC=3

Euro muslims wants to ban dogs. Go home then!!!!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 31, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
In confidential conversations with his advisers, Syrian President Bashar Assad is reported by Persian Gulf sources Tuesday, Jan. 31 to have threatened to start up armed hostilities in the region if the UN Security Council Tuesday night endorses the Arab League proposal for him to step down and hand power to his deputy.

Those sources told debkafile that the heads of the Syrian armed forces and intelligence have been given their orders and some units are on the ready. Other Middle East sources reported that the Lebanese Hizballah has also shown signs of military preparations in the last few hours. And the Russian flotilla berthed at the Syrian port of Tartus, led by the Admiral Kutznetsov aircraft carrier, also appears to be on the alert for ructions in the wake of the Security Council Syria session.

During the day, Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov warned that pushing the Arab League's UN resolution was "the path to civil war." Our Moscow sources report that top-level discussions are still going back and forth in the Kremlin over a final decision on a veto.
debkafile reports that the military flurry in advance of the critical Security Council session included US naval movements. Sunday, Jan. 29, the nuclear submarine USS Annapolis, escorted by the guided missile destroyer USS Momsen sailed through the Suez Canal to the Red Sea. This looked like a Washington warning for Tehran to keep its military fingers out of Syria if the confrontation there escalates.

It was not the first time Assad has threatened Syria's neighbors. On Aug. 9, 2011, four months into his savage crackdown against protesters, he warned Turkey that, six hours after the first shot was fired against Syria, he would "destroy Tel Aviv and set the entire Middle East on fire."

That was his answer to Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmed Davutoglu when he came to Damascus with a demand from his and other NATO governments that the Syrian ruler stop the slaughter. .

Davutoglu urged Assad to take a look at Libya and try to understand that if he carried on, he might be in for the same fate as Muammar Qaddafi – a strong hint at military intervention by NATO, including Turkey.
Earlier still on May 10, one of Assad's close kinsmen, the international tycoon Rami Makhlouf, warned: "If there is no stability in Syria, there will be none in Israel. No one can be sure what will happens after that. God help us if anything befalls this regime."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2012 - 11:20am PT
C'mon guys, you can't fault Assad for pulling the xenophobe card to rally
his people around him. That's the first week's curriculum of Dictator 101.
WBraun

climber
Feb 1, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Assad does not have full control of his military.

They are acting on their own unbeknownst to idiots like fattrad.

There are forces beyond Assad's control that are stirring all this sh!t up.

Assad is getting framed, and he knows it.

You idiots believe everything you read ....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2012 - 11:34am PT
For those of you who have not perused the Heart thread I would like to put
in a plug here for Scott Davis' book The Road from Damascus: A Journey Through Syria .
He writes very evocatively of the Syrian people.

The Road from Damascus: A Journey Through Syria

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 1, 2012 - 11:43am PT
Werner, you're kinda right, I guess. The lower-ranking Syria troops have had enough of firing on their neighbors, cousins, et al. They are more loyal to their countrymen and friends than Assad.

The higher-ranking Syrian troops are more loyal to Assad. Sure, there may be some CIA/foreign intelligence types encouraging peasants.

Assad, IMO, is a bit worse than Mubarak ever was in terms of oppression, but there's a different dynamic in Syria than there was in Egypt. Syria is in strong cahoots with Iran and a sworn enemy of Israel. Egypt tolerated Israel and even helped with border disputes that involved terror-types targeting Israel.

I disagreed rather strongly with Mubarak's removal by force. Assad? I wouldn't mind seeing him go. The only question is who will fill the power vacuum? More hardliners, or a more moderate regime?

It's lookng like Egypt was an epic-fail by Western standards. We now are looking at a more extremist, violent gov't taking roost.

Remind you of Iraq? I guess that still remains to be seen.
WBraun

climber
Feb 1, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Mossad is the biggest terrorist group on the planet .....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 1, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Mossad is the biggest terrorist group on the planet .....


Unless you're an Israeli or a foe of Iranian nukes.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Feb 1, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Fattie the Walter Mitty of ST,

A grandiose delusional Fatty believing that he is the greatest, strongest, fastest, richest, and/or most intelligent person ever and convinced himself that he has special powers, talents, or abilities.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 1, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Camp Bluering? WT hell? Bluie, they named a camp after ya!

http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/

“The camps at which U.S. military forces are stationed are Camp Doha, located 94 km from Iran; Camp Buehring, located 104 km from Iran; Camp Spearhead, located 109 km from Iran; Camp Patriot, located 123 km from Iran; and Camp Arifjan, located 126 km from Iran. All of these sites are within range of all the surface-to-surface missiles and rockets presented above, so Iranian artillery forces will have an easier task.

“East of Iran… in Afghanistan, there are four military airfields in use by American forces… Bagram Airbase, in which most of the American transport and attack aircraft are deployed… is 730 km from Iran. Kabul airfield is 732 km from the Iranian border… These targets can all be hit by Qiam missiles, with a range of 800 km; Shihab 3, with a range of 1,300-1,800 km; and Qadr, Sejjil, and ‘Ashoura missiles with a range of 1,800-2,000 km.

Oh wait, they misspelled it: "Buehring". Nevermind sir!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 1, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
It was a shout out from the dudes' biggest supporter. I asked them to tone it down as to not directly implicate anyone....It would look bad.

Awesome....get 'er done boyz!!!!!

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Feb 1, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
What gains did we win: again I will say “WIN” in Vietnam, Iraq was going to be a breeze “Mission accomplished”, and look at Afghanistan troops allied with US shooting our own men and as soon as we get out the Taliban will take over we lose again so what makes you sure an attack on Iran will be any different.

Sure at first a week, maybe in a couple of days there is no doubt that the US will win in the narrow operational sense. Said narrow: Be the same in the first gulf war thinking. Bam! over in what was it three weeks? That was the same thinking by the idiots Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Pentagon going into Iraq.

Win the battle lose the war should be our new battle cry.

Iranian retaliation might draw Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates into the conflict. The UAE, the most hawkish state in the Gulf, might respond to missiles raining down on U.S. forces at its Al Dhafra Air Base by attempting to seize Abu Musa, Greater Tunb, and Lesser Tunb, three disputed Gulf islands currently occupied by Iran.

And think about If Iranian-allied Hezbollah responded to the fighting by firing rockets at Israeli cities, Israel could launch an all-out war against Lebanon. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad might also try to use the moment to divert attention from the uprising in his country, launching his own assault on the Jewish state.

It will only delay their goals, dig deeper and wait. The youth that loves America could change as well. Ah! Yes then the retaliations killing US citizens overseas and as well as here. Car bombings, suicide teams coming in from Mexico. Simple mathematics.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained just a lot of money down the drain.

Or as the author William Faulkner once said “The past is never dead-it is not even past”


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 2, 2012 - 11:49am PT
Today's LA Times:

Israel's profound choice on Iran

No one disputes that Iran poses a threat to Israel. What will Netanyahu decide?

By Chuck Freilich
February 2, 2012


In the end it will come down to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. His senior officials will make their cases, but he alone will have to make one of the most critical decisions inIsrael's history: whether to attackIran's nuclear program. I do not envy him.

There has been much media speculation lately about possible Israeli military action, largely from those who have never borne the crushing weight of momentous national decisions. Israel has made many controversial decisions over the decades, some mistaken. One thing that cannot be said is that it has taken major military action lightly. Rarely if ever have the stakes been higher.

The debate in Israel over the Iranian nuclear threat is narrow but critical nonetheless. No one in Israel disputes that a nuclear Iran would pose a dire threat to its security and that Israel should go to great lengths to prevent this from happening. Some believe that Iran is an extremist but essentially rational actor, and can thus be deterred. Others believe the threat to be truly existential — that Iran's theocratic commitment to Israel's destruction may lead it to take unimaginable steps and risks — and thus that Israel must do everything it can to prevent that.

Neither side can afford to be wrong. Netanyahu, by all indications of the existentialist mind-set, certainly cannot.

In this case, as in no other, it behooves critics of Israel generally and Netanyahu specifically to approach the issue with caution and humility. If one can legitimately argue whether a nuclear Iran truly is an existential threat to Israel, Netanyahu's perception of it as such is sincere.

Imagine him alone in his office, prior to the final decision: on the one hand, a threat to Israel's very existence, and the Jewish people have already undergone one Holocaust in recent history. Israel was established so that the Jewish people would never again face the threat of extermination. Never again.

Conversely, the consequences of acting are also potentially dire, even assuming a successful attack. Iran already has the technical means to produce a nuclear bomb, and an attack could set the program back by no more than a few years — of value in itself but not a solution.

Moreover, according to Israeli estimates, Iran has hundreds of Shahab missiles capable of striking Israel. And along with Syria, Iran has provided Hezbollah with an almost unfathomable arsenal of more than 50,000 rockets, designed precisely for this scenario, which can blanket all of Israel from Lebanon.

There is no reason to believe that Hezbollah will not use this arsenal. During the 2006 Lebanon war, Hezbollah fired 4,000 rockets at Israel, about one-third of its 13,000-missile arsenal at the time; if it were to employ a similar ratio today — and it could be far larger — the results would cause a level of destruction Israel has never before experienced. Hamas too has a large rocket arsenal in waiting, but "just" thousands.

Furthermore, the destabilization of the regimes in Egypt and Syria, following the Arab Spring, greatly increases the dangers that they too might be drawn into the confrontation. Syria, because it may have an interest in deflecting domestic unrest by focusing public attention on an external enemy. Egypt, because the new Islamist-based government will, at very best, be far less committed to peace with Israel. An explosion of popular fury on the Egyptian and Arab street may force it to act.

The international community, which is finally beginning to take serious measures to deal with the Iranian threat — nearly 20 years after Israel and the U.S. first began warning of it — will undoubtedly respond harshly to an Israeli action and in some cases even impose sanctions. The Obama administration has made clear that it firmly opposes military action, although its own measures have failed to address the threat. Israel has lived with international recriminations before, but it cannot afford an overly severe response from the U.S., its one major ally, on whom it would be even more dependent in a post-attack period.

So herein lies the dilemma: a potential risk to the nation's existence versus the uncertain results of military action, the likelihood of a devastating Iranian/Hezbollah response, the risk of an end to the peace with Egypt and even a military confrontation and regional war, severe international opprobrium and a partial rift with the United States.

Netanyahu alone will have to make the final decision. May he choose wisely.



Chuck Freilich, a senior fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School, was a deputy national security advisor in Israel during Labor and Likud governments.

Copyright © 2012, Los Angeles Times
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Feb 2, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
Fatty

You been sucking us in to your web in ST while selling books in Amazon you bastard

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Iran&hl=en&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1271&bih=817&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14033297820133823209&sa=X&ei=jgArT9qcMeGJiALc84moCg&ved=0CF0Q8wIwADge

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Feb 2, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
What gains did we win

Live fire practice for our service people for many years. That's why we have a war as often as possible. It's way better than shooting blanks or shooting at paper targets. We now have a military of veterans instead of a military of n00bs.

Dave
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 2, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Live fire practice for our service people for many years. That's why we have a war as often as possible. It's way better than shooting blanks or shooting at paper targets. We now have a military of veterans instead of a military of n00bs.

Dave

As morbid as that sounds, there is some truth to that. Why do you think the Frenchies are going home now that one of their guys got whacked by an Afghani infiltrator (may he rest in peace).
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
http://www.dni.gov/testimonies/20120202_testimony_wta.pdf
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 3, 2012 - 09:59am PT
Arab spring explained,

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 3, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
22 Paleostinian villages refuse to connect to a sewer line installed by Jooooos and continue to contaminate their own ground water.

http://www.jpost.com/Sci-Tech/Article.aspx?id=256320
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 3, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100134449/islamists-funny-till-the-bombs-go-off/

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 8, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Oh, fer f*#k's sake;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098129/BBC-tells-journalists-avoid-calling-Abu-Qatada-extremist.html

There's no England anymore...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 8, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 8, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
From The gates of Vienna

The film Groundhog Day showed us a man who was doomed to repeat the same day over and over again until he learned to use his time to become a better person. Islam has been stuck in its own form of that cycle, repeating the same century over and over again, moving from religious ecstasy to holy war, seeking redemption through religious tyranny, and finding that there was no escaping the internal decay and instability in the veins of its religion.

Islam's only redemption lies in establishing a theocracy. Its commitment to power and the indulgence of the earthly and heavenly paradise of loot, slaves and violence led to its own degeneration over and over again. Having no other spiritual form than the exercise of power, it has corrupted itself each time, and then attempted to exorcise the corruption through more of violence.

The Islamic leaders of one generation endorse the tyrants whom the Islamic leaders of another generation strive to overthrow. Hardly had Mohammed kicked the bucket than his nearest and dearest were fighting a civil war over supreme rulership. The origins of the Shiite-Sunni split lay not in theology, but in a vulgar power play between Mohammed's relatives. That greedy infighting has hardened into theological variations, but underneath they remain fixed in the same patterns of warring over power and wealth.

Over a thousand years later the Muslim world is still dedicating all its energies to civil wars and external conflicts whose only true goal is to put money and power into the hands of its leaders. The confrontations between the prominent Shiite families running Iran and the Arab Sunni families running the Arabian gulf states are not theological, though they take place under the guise of theology. They are ethnic and economic conflicts dressed up as religious conflicts.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 8, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
This was my reference, DMT;

//All the stories have been told
Of kings and days of old,
But there's no England now.
All the wars that were won and lost
Somehow don't seem to matter very much anymore.
All the lies we were told,
All the lies of the people running round,
They're castles have burned.
Now I see change,
But inside we're the same as we ever were.

Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Living this way, each day is a dream.
What am I, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?

Now another century nearly gone,
What are we gonna leave for the young?
What we couldn't do, what we wouldn't do,
It's a crime, but does it matter?
Does it matter much, does it matter much to you?
Does it ever really matter?
Yes, it really, really matters.

Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?

Now another leader says
Break their hearts and break some heads.
Is there nothing we can say or do?
Blame the future on the past,
Always lost in blood and guts.
And when they're gone, it's me and you.

Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line.//

The Kinks, 'Living On A Thin Line'.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 9, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
go to netflix

watch "the stoning of soraya m."

then try to explain how we're all the same and that we shouldn't judge other cultures or that we can't say one civilization is more civilized than another
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 11, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/10/interpol-journalist-arrested-muhammad-tweet
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 18, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Uh oh....

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=339293&D=2012-02-18&SO=&HC=1

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 22, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
meh, who cares if these guys get nukes?


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/02/22/iran-court-convicts-christian-pastor-convert-to-death/
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 27, 2012 - 09:46am PT
ceo of bbc reveals why we might lose the clash:


"BBC director-general Mark Thompson has claimed Christianity is treated with far less sensitivity than other religions because it is ‘pretty broad shouldered’.

He suggested other faiths have a ‘very close identity with ethnic minorities’, and were therefore covered in a far more careful way by broadcasters.

But he also revealed that producers had to consider the possibilities of ‘violent threats’ instead of polite complaints if they pushed ahead with certain types of satire.

Mr Thompson said: ‘Without question, “I complain in the strongest possible terms”, is different from, “I complain in the strongest possible terms and I am loading my AK47 as I write”. This definitely raises the stakes.’"


1) the new cowardice of the once formidable press of treating an admittedly peaceful religion less respectfully--and, therefore, more deserving of respect--BECAUSE it's peaceful

2) the willful blindness that refers to a religion of 1.1 BILLION people (i.e. 1/7 the world's population) as a religion of "minorities"



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106953/Christianity-gets-sensitive-treatment-religions-admits-BBC-chief.html#ixzz1naqc9HZT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 27, 2012 - 03:28pm PT

Conjuring the ghost of Richelieu


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/NB28Dj06.html


Another good one

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2012/02/islam-uber-alles.html
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 28, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
when wearing a costume is deemed more "intimidating" than being choked:


1) you make fun of mohammad

2) you get assaulted by a muslim

3) you watch assault charges against said muslim dropped in an american court

4) you get scolded by an american judge for "intimidation"


http://jonathanturley.org/2012/02/24/pennsylvania-judge-throws-out-charge-for-harassing-atheist-while-calling-the-victim-a-doofus/
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 5, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
barry on video with his pants on fire:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wbH5KVPrPo
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 5, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Darned - I figured that the bump was a Fattrad AIPAC update.

Although I can guess how that went.....LOL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 5, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
Hamas Angry With President Obama's Pro Israel Stance;
First Publish: 3/5/2012, 2:09 PM


Hamas leader Mashaal and PA's Abbas in Cairo
Reuters
The Palestinian Authority is unhappy with what it called President Barack Obama’s “unprecedented pro-Israel” speech to American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) Sunday night and is preparing to officially shelve the “peace process,” which by most accounts already is dead and buried.

In sharp contrast to President Obama’s tongue-lashing last year of a Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria, he didn’t mention the issue in his speech and barely talked about the Palestinian Authority, with its first reference being negative: “The division within the Palestinian leadership makes it harder still [to achieve peace] – most notably, with Hamas's continued rejection of Israel's very right to exist.”

His second reference was reiteration of American policy “to press Arab leaders to reach out to Israel, and will continue to support the peace treaty with Egypt. That's why — just as we encourage Israel to be resolute in the pursuit of peace — we have continued to insist that any Palestinian partner must recognize Israel's right to exist and reject violence and adhere to existing agreements.”

Anticipating PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas’ intentions to make another try at recognition by the United Nations, President Obama stated, “My administration has consistently rejected any efforts to short-cut negotiations or impose an agreement on the parties.”

"This speech is part of Obama’s election campaign," PLO leader and PA negotiator Saeb Erekat told the Bethlehem-based Ma'an news agency. "Unfortunately, the speech ignored the requirements for peace as it did not touch on urging Israel to accept the two-state solution, halt settlement activities, and stop imposing facts on the ground."

Abbas is not expected to remain silent. He said last week that he will issue a “surprising” statement this week, and his officials said Saturday they will give Israel one more chance to accept its conditions for talks on establishing the Palestinian Authority as a country within Israel’s current borders, or shelve the already moribund “peace process.”http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153451


Fattrad Proven Dead Wrong, AGAIN and AGAIN
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 5, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Fatty a fool as usual

Saying Israel will save you. Israel knows and always has that it will not hit the targets: not enough planes, which route to use. One chance in 15. So now comes in the US to save Israel.

BiBi does it alone and does not hold back for sanctions to work watch the second holocaust but don’t blame it on Obama blame it on bibi’s ignorance. Why should we waste our $$$ and kids for his stupidity.

But give you an A for posting a magazine that agrees on universal health care and is for gay marriages, are you becoming more liberal?

By the way your jacket you posted sure looks like it has been used a lot or did you get rid of the old one because you couldn’t get all the blood off from your tooling? Of course anyone now can get those on the internet, plus the patches no questions ask just credit card #.

Happy you are back now gives me something to do.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 5, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
Netanyahu And President Obama, Brothers United:



Netanyahu said the Iranians were correct in that linkage: “Israel and America stand together.”

However, the assessment in Jerusalem is that though the countries are well-coordinated on Iran, they have different capabilities, perspectives and levels of how they would be harmed by a nuclear weapon.

Obama also underscored the strong bond between the countries in his comments during their nine-minute press appearance ahead of their meeting, in which no questions were allowed.

“Our commitment to the security of Israel is rock solid,” Obama said, echoing his remarks from his address to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee Sunday night. “The United States will always have Israel’s back when it comes to Israel’s security.”

He also repeated that his policy was not containment but preventing Iran from getting nuclear weapons, and that “when I say all options are at the table, I mean it.”
Jerusalem Newshttp://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=260607


Fattrad AGAIN Proven Flat Wrong
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 5, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Obama Administration BRUTAL on Terrorists:

Destroying the Constitution, Obama shows again he is a killer on terror:



In his most forceful defense yet of the Obama administration's use of lethal force against U.S. citizens linked to terrorism, Attorney General Eric Holder said Monday that the Constitution does not protect U.S. suspects plotting to kill other Americans.


By Brian Kersey, AP
Holder said in a speech at the Northwestern University School of Law in Chicago that the government is within its rights to kill citizens who are senior leaders in al-Qaeda or affiliate groups who pose an "imminent threat" of attack against the USA and whose capture is "not feasible."
"Given the nature of how terrorists act and where they tend to hide, it may not always be feasible to capture a U.S. citizen terrorist who presents an imminent threat of violent attack," Holder said, according to a text of his speech. "In that case, our government has the clear authority to defend the United States with lethal force."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-03-05/eric-holder-killing-us-citizens-terrorist-threat/53374776/1
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
Fatty

"when I say all options are at the table, I mean it.”

He meant that as well to Neyanyahu as a warning to back off or he might not get his packages.

So look's like you loose, Republicans loose.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
62 percent of the Israel population just said they do not support their idiotic govts preemptive attacks ideas towards Iran.

They don't support their own nutcase leaders Netanyahu and the bigger idiot Israel terrorist Ehud Barak.

Only the stupid Israel govt. is trying to paranoia a war ....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 7, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 9, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
Better not be the goofy kid with the bad hair style!

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/03/09/199614.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 10, 2012 - 12:50am PT
Just to inject a little reality check my Syrian Christian friends don't think
what is going on is necessarily a 'freedom fight'. If the Hezbollah/Iranian
backed faction wins it will be really hard times for the Christians and all
the other sects/minorities who don't fit in with the 'new plan' just as is
happening in Egypt right now.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 11, 2012 - 08:42am PT
http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/berlin-funeral-for-dead-muslim-thug.html

Berlin police are worried that an outbreak of Muslim violence may be forthcoming. Here is the story. In the Muslim-colonised area of Neukölln in Berlin, a fight breaks out at an informal "youth" football match. Most of the youths are Arabs and Turks. Two German men in their 30s intercede to try and calm matters down. The Muslims then turn on them and forget about their original quarrel. The men leave the area but a crowd of about 20 "youths" follows them home, arming themselves with stones and sticks along the way. Once the men reach their homes and go inside, the crowd doesn't disperse. So one of the men, Sven K., comes back out with a kitchen knife. The Muslims attack him and he defends himself with the knife. An 18-year Muslim is stabbed and later dies.

The police investigate the offence but the man is not held in custody because the circumstances indicate that he acted in self-defence. Sven is himself admitted to hospital, suffering from a fractured base of the skull. Now the word on the streets is "Revenge".
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 11, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Gentlemen!

Don't worry about the Middle-East.

Fighting Liberal ideas about sex & birth-control is now the cause for Republicans.

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Mar 13, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
fatty

is that really you ?



lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
Yes Majid

Has to be Fatty

The one that believes that Israel after their unsuccessful trying to figure out which ones of taking out 12-15 targets with not enough planes and have no way back and now the US has to clean it up.

He also thinks that all his Israelites will come out of their houses and business’s to rejoice so everyone now can get back to their normal lives with economy back up and going, restaurants opening, new business creation and ads for good place for a vacation and peaceful place to be in.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Lostinshanghai posted
"The one that believes that Israel after their unsuccessful trying to figure out which ones of taking out 12-15 targets with not enough planes and have no way back and now the US has to clean it up.

He also thinks that all his Israelites will come out of their houses and business’s to rejoice so everyone now can get back to their normal lives with economy back up and going, restaurants opening, new business creation and ads for good place for a vacation and peaceful place to be in. "

No one will ding you for proof reading and correcting your posts so that they at least appear rational, and understandable.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 13, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Fatty

Funny that the US and you accuse Iran of not telling the truth [which I agree] about their peaceful use of their facilities and not making bombs but what did Israel do in 1960; the same and what about Israel’s treatment with the IAEI; the same and still do. Israel’s aging nuclear reactor in the Beersheba and Dimona area plus all their waste, wonder what will become of that if that gets hit?

Ever hear of the Apollo affair or hit NUMEC.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/operations/215715-southern-command-chief-iranian-terror-groups-expanding-influence-in-south-america
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 16, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
A Washington think tank says it has identified the building at an Iranian military base where international inspectors suspect Iran may have conducted explosives tests connected with a possible nuclear weapons program.

Suspect....May have.....possible....
Yep, sounds solid, Git 'em!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 16, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
The list of senior terrorists killed during the Obama presidency is fairly extensive.

There’s Osama bin Laden, of course, killed in May.

Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) leader Anwar al-Awlaki as of today.

Earlier this month officials confirmed that al Qaeda’s chief of Pakistan operations, Abu Hafs al-Shahri, was killed in Waziristan, Pakistan.

In August, ‘Atiyah ‘Abd al-Rahman, the deputy leader of al Qaeda was killed.

In June, one of the group’s most dangerous commanders, Ilyas Kashmiri, was killed in Pakistan. In Yemen that same month, AQAP senior operatives Ammar al-Wa’ili, Abu Ali al-Harithi, and Ali Saleh Farhan were killed. In Somalia, Al-Qa’ida in East Africa (AQEA) senior leader Harun Fazul was killed.

Administration officials also herald the recent U.S./Pakistani joint arrest of Younis al-Mauritani in Quetta.

Going back to August 2009, Tehrik e-Taliban Pakistan leader Baitullah Mahsud was killed in Pakistan.

In September of that month, Jemayah Islamiya operational planner Noordin Muhammad Top was killed in Indonesia, and AQEA planner Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan was killed in Somalia.

Then in December 2009 in Pakistan, al Qaeda operational commanders Saleh al-Somali and ‘Abdallah Sa’id were killed.

In February 2010, in Pakistan, Taliban deputy and military commander Abdul Ghani Beradar was captured; Haqqani network commander Muhammad Haqqani was killed; and Lashkar-e Jhangvi leader Qari Zafar was killed.

In March 2010, al Qaeda operative Hussein al-Yemeni was killed in Pakistan, while senior Jemayah Islamiya operative Dulmatin - accused of being the mastermind behind the 2002 Bali bombings – was killed during a raid in Indonesia.

In April 2010, al Qaeda in Iraq leaders Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Omar al-Baghdadi were killed.

In May, al Qaeda’s number three commander, Sheik Saeed al-Masri was killed.

In June 2010 in Pakistan, al Qaeda commander Hamza al-Jawfi was killed.

Remember when Rudy Giuliani warned that electing Barack Obama would mean that the U.S. played defense, not offense, against the terrorists?

If this is defense, what does offense look like?

-Jake Tapper
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 16, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
Fattrad thoughtlessly said:


Keep telling me about the great healthcare in Denmark:

Soeren Kern (Stonegate Institute)
More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder.
The Muslims - all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities - were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6.



Jeff, what does healthcare in Denmark possibly have anything to do with Muslim gang members trying to raid a courthouse?

Seriously?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
Norton, maybe he is implying that those guys should have already been
committed to an east-facing mental health facility.


Back to the Clash. Here's an excellent letter to 'The Economist' last week:

SIR – You brought up the point that Israel is a very small place. So small, in fact, that Palestinians would suffer an equally horrible fate if Iran were to use nuclear weapons. Laying waste to Israel lays waste to the dream of a Palestinian state as well. Is it the contention of your newspaper that Iran has the technology to build a weapon with the capability to kill only Jews? Or are you suggesting that Iran would willingly annihilate their valued proxies within the region? If you know any logic that explains why Iran would destroy the very people it has long supported, then please let us hear it.

Fear spreads so much faster than hope. Yet hope abounds in Iran’s growing population of young, well-educated, well-connected people. Breaking faith with them on the nuclear issue would number the days of any ayatollah. We should trust in Iran’s legendary piety to honour Islamic law. Or better yet, trust that three millennia of Persian reasoning has concluded the weapons to be useless.

Any such conclusion may seem unfathomable to those who yield to, or promote, a fear-driven foreign policy. Sadly, many of them hold fast to the notion that assured peace comes only at the splintered end of a long stick.

Bruce Davies
Halifax, Canada
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 16, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Fattrad thoughtlessly said:


Keep telling me about the great healthcare in Denmark:

Soeren Kern (Stonegate Institute)
More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder.
The Muslims - all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities - were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6.




Jeff, what does healthcare in Denmark possibly have anything to do with Muslim gang members trying to raid a courthouse?

Seriously?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 22, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
Reilly said:
Back to the Clash. Here's an excellent letter to 'The Economist' last week:

I'm sure the Ayatollahs would never think to make some public announcement of biblical proportions in advance expecting all the Arabs in the vicinity to scatter until after the radioactive dust settles. Excellent you say? Hello.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 22, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
At least 943 Pakistani women and girls were murdered last year for allegedly defaming their family’s honor, the country’s leading human rights group said Thursday.

The statistics highlight the growing scale of violence suffered by many women in conservative Muslim Pakistan, where they are frequently treated as second-class citizens and there is no law against domestic violence.

Despite progress on better protecting women’s rights, activists say the government needs to do more to prosecute murderers in cases largely dismissed by police as private, family affairs.

“At least 943 women were killed in the name of honor, of which 93 were minors,” wrote the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in its annual report.

Seven Christian and two Hindu women were among the victims, it said.

The Commission reported 791 “honor killings” in 2010.

Around 595 of the women killed in 2011 were accused of having “illicit relations” and 219 of marrying without permission.

Some victims were raped or gang raped before being killed, the Commission said. Most of the women were killed by their brothers and husbands.

Only 20 of 943 killed were reported to have been provided medical aid before they died, the Commission wrote.


http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/03/22/202385.html
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 22, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Just to enlighten Jeff, Mr. Apocalypse:

A classified war simulation held this month to assess the repercussions of an Israeli attack on Iran forecasts that the strike would lead to a wider regional war, which could draw in the United States and leave hundreds of Americans dead, according to American officials.

The officials said the so-called war game was not designed as a rehearsal for American military action — and they emphasized that the exercise’s results were not the only possible outcome of a real-world conflict.

But the game has raised fears among top American planners that it may be impossible to preclude American involvement in any escalating confrontation with Iran, the officials said. In the debate among policy makers over the consequences of any Israeli attack, that reaction may give stronger voice to those in the White House, Pentagon and intelligence community who have warned that a strike could prove perilous for the United States.

The results of the war game were particularly troubling to Gen. James N. Mattis, who commands all American forces in the Middle East, Persian Gulf and Southwest Asia, according to officials who either participated in the Central Command exercise or who were briefed on the results and spoke on condition of anonymity because of its classified nature. When the exercise had concluded earlier this month, according to the officials, General Mattis told aides that an Israeli first strike would be likely to have dire consequences across the region and for United States forces there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/world/middleeast/united-states-war-game-sees-dire-results-of-an-israeli-attack-on-iran.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=world
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 22, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Coming to your town soon:

Poor Fats, his world would be so empty without Muslims to fear.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
survival,

Are you having trouble accepting reality???


No, but you are. Christians and Muslims have been at odds in various parts of the world for some...uh...1600 years now. And this is news and some big world apocolypse moment for you? Where TF have you been?

The vast overwhelming numbers of Christians and Muslims wish for nothing more than to live and let live and be left alone. There's your clash.

Although there are radicals on both sides, including you, that WANT it to be all Earth shattering.

You know, over the horizon, surgical and all...

But you let a couple pot heads go so you think you're all enlightened.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
If it had been known in 1934 that the Nazis had a robust nuke development program, and what that could mean, what would you suggest we'd done?


survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
What do you think of TGT's pic????




I think it looks suspiciously like these.





What do you and TGT think? Hypocrites.






Hey, what holiday are they celebrating here, Ramadan?



Oh look, here's another Ramadan picture, f*ckin Muslims....



More praying to Mecca:




And again with that TERRORIST ABDULLAH CLAUS!!!


Here are the Nazis coming out of a MOSQUE!!





MULLAHS EVERYWHERE!!













Muslim Burial.







And last but not least, My Favorite, the Christian salute.
Congratulations, you just got your ass kicked.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Yes Jeff, we have come so far...

[Click to View YouTube Video]



I am an American that stands with u Isreal..I have no money 2 send 2 u but u are in my prayers..I know u are the first defense 2 all that is good in christ, i know if these evil people were 2 wipe u off the face of the earth , they would come for us next, I pray that someday u will wipe this evil of the face of the earth before they can do it 2 u…WE WILL WIN MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, WE HAVE GGOD ON OUR SIDE!! Peace be with u and GOD bless u all!!


i wish we wjere over ih Israel to stain side by side with you all we love you all Israel and your people in Jesus chirst we will fight on your side and wipe Iran outand we willfightourgovermentforyou!


The above quotes are here: http://blog.standforisrael.org/articles/a-rising-threat


Just in case you're wondering Fats, I am NOT pro Islam, anti-Jew or any such thing. You and your Israel fawning just happen to be a convenient debate on my climbing website.

TGT posts one pic of Hitler with someone who appears to be muslim and you want to jump with glee. I post 15 pix of Christian leaders with Nazis and you're like "Uh, yeah, but that was the old days, we've changed and they have gotten worse." REALLY? You mean the TRIPLING of anti-muslim groups in this country is an improvement? Wow, to me that looks like backward progress if I ever saw it. But there's no changing your mind, you're an idealogue.

Yes indeed folks, peace through Christ, peace through Israel, Peace through Islam, religion will save us all.....
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
http://www.israelovesiran.com/

now watch fattie add his own/create site http://www.usahatesiran.com with his fellow AIPAC members.

survival:

good point with the photos, fattie just wants to get the Muslims
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
survival:

good point with the photos, fattie just wants to get the Muslims


Thanks lost.

Lostinshanghai for the win!
http://www.israelovesiran.com/



lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Hey! fattie why did you not post this or is because it might get in the way in your Disinformation rants.

Israel shifts views on Iran

By ASSOCIATED PRESS | 3/18/12 5:57 PM EDT

JERUSALEM - Despite saber-rattling from Jerusalem, Israeli officials now agree with the U.S. assessment that Tehran has not yet decided on the actual construction of a nuclear bomb, according to senior Israeli government and defense figures.

Even so, there is great concern in Israel about leaving Iran “on the cusp” of a bomb - explaining why Israel continues to hint at a military attack on Iran’s nuclear installations before it moves enough of them underground to protect them from Israel’s bombs.

Israel’s leaders have been charging in no uncertain terms for years that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. Though officials say they accept the more nuanced American view, they warn that it is just a matter of semantics, because an Iran on the verge of being able to build a bomb would still be a danger.

The United States is playing up its assessment that Iran has not made its final decision in a public campaign to persuade Israel to call off any attack plan and allow the increasingly harsh sanctions against Iran time to persuade Tehran to back down.

The concern - which is widely shared in Israel as part of a complex calculation - is of an Iranian retaliation that might spark regional conflict and send oil prices soaring, at a time when the world economy is already struggling and U.S. presidential elections loom.

Also in the equation are concerns about the ability of the Israeli home front to withstand a sustained barrage of Iranian missiles fired in retaliation. Iranian surrogates Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Gaza Strip could also bombard Israel with thousands of rockets, and U.S. troops in the Gulf region could also become targets.

Several senior Israeli officials who spoke in recent days to The Associated Press said Israel has come around to the U.S. view that no final decision to build a bomb has been made by Iran. The officials, who are privy to intelligence and to the discussion about the Iranian program, said this is the prevailing view in the intelligence community, but there are also questions about whether Tehran might be hiding specific bomb making operations.

The concern, they said, is about allowing the Iranian program to reach the point where there is enough enriched weapons grade material that a bomb could quickly be assembled, within a year.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday, “Iran, whose leader foments terrorism and violence around the globe and calls for our destruction … this regime must never be allowed to have nuclear weapons.”
Israel officials have said that with Iran moving its installations underground, Israel’s level of bunker-busting capability leaves it with a window of no more than several months to act effectively. The United States, with more powerful bombs, would have a much longer period - but leaders here are loathe to be entirely dependent on U.S. determination on the issue.

The suspicion in Israel is that the Iranians have held off on a decision in order to deny Israel - and other countries - the pretext for an attack, officials said, noting that to a certain extent the matter is semantic and therefore secondary.

All the officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the subject is deemed too delicate to be discussed on the record, and the government has ordered silence.

Israel views Iran as a threat to its survival and, like the West, sees Tehran’s ramped-up enrichment of uranium, a key element of bomb making, as undercutting its claims that its nuclear program is purely civilian. The U.N. nuclear agency cited its concerns about Iran’s ultimate designs in reports, but notes its inspectors have found no direct evidence that Iran is moving toward an atomic weapon.

Netanyahu ratcheted up the tough talk this month, emphasizing during a White House visit and in a high-profile speech at home that Israel was prepared to act alone if necessary, even over U.S. objections.
In advance of Netanyahu’s White House visit and during a speech to a powerful pro-Israel lobby, President Barack Obama took an increasingly assertive tone about U.S. refusal to tolerate a nuclear Iran and willingness to block that militarily.

Still, he tempered this tone by saying there was “too much loose talk of war” and emphasized his preference for diplomacy and sanctions. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reiterated shortly before Netanyahu arrived in Washington the prevailing U.S. view that Tehran has not decided to produce weapons.

Iran reported in February that it possesses up to 100 kilograms of uranium enriched to 20 percent, which would be enough for four bombs if further processed. Uranium must be enriched to 90 percent to be military grade.
Israeli intelligence officials, like other intelligence agencies worldwide, estimate that once a decision to build a bomb is reached, it would take months to upgrade the enrichment and months more to build a crude bomb - in all, a year to 18 months.

Then, to fit a bomb to a Shahab-3 missile capable of striking Israel would take Iran two years, Israeli defense officials say.
Israeli officials who favor a strike do not want Iran even to reach the point where work on a bomb could begin.

Israeli leaders have invoked the Nazi Holocaust of World War II, when 6 million Jews were killed, in their warnings about Iran, citing its nuclear program, repeated references to Israel’s destruction, support for anti-Israel militants on the southern and northern borders and development of missiles capable of being fitted with nuclear warheads.

There is also fear of an Iranian bomb sparking a nuclear arms race across an already volatile region with an active illicit, cross-border weapons trade.

Israel itself is widely believe to have an arsenal of nuclear weapons, though it has a policy of neither confirming nor denying that.
Israel has been warning of an Iranian nuclear threat since the 1990s and has been working on a possible military strike for years.

Leaders here have welcomed the increased sanctions on Iranian oil exports and banks, but they remain skeptical of an Iranian climbdown, especially because Russia and China refuse to join the effort.

Read more:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74157.html#ixzz1pxxauPJ4




TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 24, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
TORONTO -- Eric Brazau was unmoved when flipping through a marriage guide he found in an Islamic bookstore a month ago.

That was, until he reached the parts on how to control and beat your wife.

Brazau bought A Gift For Muslim Couple out of curiosity but was taken aback when he found dozens of chapters and passages giving Muslim husbands advice around controlling, restraining, scolding and beating their wives.

"At first, I thought that it is incredible that this kind of thing can be found in Canada," said Brazau, who bought the book from Islamic Books and Souvenirs in the city's east end. "And then I thought, 'Radical Islam is not coming to Canada, it is already here.'"

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/national/2012/03/23/19543396.html
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:31pm PT

Fattie:

Disinformation or lack of it.

“Global March to Jerusalem”

How come you do not report about this? Maybe you missed it. Watching Jerry Springer or is it what was that side kick he had [dumb as# cop/Marine that was a bodyguard] and has his own show now, Steve ??????

Is it because you do not want STer’s to know or inform anyone about this.

Also is Mossad going to dress up and paint an Iranian boat to make it look like it was as Iranian hitting the US so they [US] will strike back or are they secretly inside to shoot a missile at our Navy to save your ass?

And as for Werner he is right you are wrong; See you twist the words around or maybe you are just dumb. Yes! You are just dumb.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 30, 2012 - 03:45pm PT

Fattie, where have I seen this before maybe you can refresh my mind?

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 30, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
Fattie:

Told you a long time ago that Israel will not make for its F-15 and F-16 fighters and striking that long distance[2,000 miles round-trip] to potential targets 12-15 of them and back. Azerbaijan is nothing new.

Old news, idiot; as for Bolton[the Clown]the same. Fox news; more propaganda.


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 30, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Fattie:

That’s what the Nazi’s did as well: try to fry everyone in your race; looks like you and BeBe wants to the same against anyone in the region. You are the aggressors. So now everyone one will want nukes.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 30, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Fatty want to bomb Iran.

I can't seem to find any analysis of what the radioactive consequences of bombing multiple nuclear sites might be. Seems to me it could lead to millions of premature cancers, which would put it on a scale approaching the holocaust, Israel's idea of the worst evil ever. Prove otherwise

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
My hope is that the entrances to the facilities will be closed with little release of radioactive substances.

You're betting a lot of lives the the highest explosive bunker busters designed to penetrate deep into underground facilities will create some kind of self sealing damage. I bet you don't invest for your clients on risks like that.

Oh, Afghanistan did not invade us, but they managed to kill 3000 Americans in one day.


There was no Afghani planner or highjacker, or proof of Afghani knowledge it was going to happen. They offered to turn Bin Laden over to a neutral Islamic country for trial, which is more than we offered for the plane bomber we harbored, Luis Posada. Not much grounds to bomb a place from the middle ages to stone age, and where did it get us

Peace

Karl
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Fattie: Haaretz report says it's not gonna happen this year. What are your thoughts?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-s-plan-to-attack-iran-put-on-hold-until-next-year-at-the-earliest-1.421348


Israel's plan to attack Iran put on hold until next year at the earliest
Damning U.S. war simulation forces Ehud Barak to reconsider attack plans; Americans pledge more money for Iron Dome antimissile system.



At 8:58 P.M. on Tuesday, Israel's 2012 war against Iran came to a quiet end. The capricious plans for a huge aerial attack were returned to the deep recesses of safes and hearts. The war may not have been canceled but it has certainly been postponed. For a while, at least, we can sound the all clear: It won't happen this year. Until further notice, Israel Air Force Flight 007 will not be taking off......

....For all intents and purposes, it was an announcement that this war was being postponed until at least the spring of 2013.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
I honestly think cooler heads will prevail on both sides. The Israelis know
they can only forestall not eliminate the inevitable. Besides, honest analysis
would note that the 45% of the Iranian population which is under 25 has little
truck with the mullahs and would sooner accomodate than confront the West.
They want to live better lives.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
There is video of Mullah Omar, leader of Afghan, in the room with OBL when the planes hit, there is no better eveidence, stop being in peaceful denial.

I call BullSh#t.

Make that double BullSh#t,

No such video exists.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
Hey Fattie:

So much for your understanding nukes:

Israel, which has neither confirmed nor denied the existence of its nuclear-weapons program but is widely believed to have one, ranks 25th overall. Because of the state’s policy of opacity regarding its nuclear-weapons program and the sheer dearth of public information about regulations and security practices, evaluating Israel was a challenge.

Although Israel might be thought to strongly protect its materials because it scores above the Index average on Security and Control Measures, the lack of clarity regarding regulations and security practices erodes international confidence. Beyond taking even basic actions that would require greater openness (such as publishing regulations), Israel could do more to build confidence in its stewardship of weapons-usable nuclear materials by ratifying relevant international legal agreements.

North Korea ranks last at 32nd overall, with scores that fall at or near the bottom of each category. North Korea is unique because of its international isolation. It is impossible to know whether the state follows any domestic laws and regulations, and the government does not participate in international agreements and conventions. Because of the high value the regime places on its nuclear program, physical security may be strong—but that security could be undermined by political instability and insider threats. The uncertainties surrounding the political transition after the death of Kim Jong-il underscore these concerns.

Finally, as a general observation, many of the low-scoring nuclear-armed states are also beset by societal factors that undermine international confidence in the application and enforcement of their nuclear materials security measures.

Some of these states face pervasive corruption and high prospects of political instability in the next two years through conflict within the state, political and labor unrest, or armed conflict with other states. No matter how these nuclear-armed states ranked overall, all of them have areas where they can improve and take urgent action.

From:

The Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) Nuclear Materials Security Index is a first-of-its-kind public benchmarking project of nuclear materials security conditions on a country-by country basis. The NTI Index, prepared with the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), was created to spark an international discussion about priorities required to strengthen security and, most important, to encourage governments to provide assurances and to take actions to reduce risks.

Source www.ntiindex.org Jan 2012

As for Global norms Pakistan beat you or was better.

And since we are now having discussions in Asia about all this how come you guys do not want to add or sign yourself to a couple of amendments? Siding with Iran and Korea?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
Where's that Omar/Bin Laden video, Fatty?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
Doesn't exist. Complete fabrication.

You may be thinking of the November 9, 2011 clandestine video where OBL and others talk about 911. Omar not present.

Omar is one of the world's least photographed leaders. I recall only one video of him, a far away shot where he is with his troops.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
How can I get any ranking for not knowing close quarters or weapons which may not exist?????

As a former AIPAC board member, I can neither acknowledge or deny I possess knowledge on what weapons or guns or how to act if an intruder gets in my house.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
No it doesn't suffice, for most people. No doubt the Taliban are responsible for OBL being in the country, and could have avoided the war by turning him and others over to the US.

Funny, you have evidence of Omar knowing about 911 after 911. What's the point?

Yep, they hate America. So what?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Yet a localized pest will often grow into a wider plague. To wit: the Greeks saw Philip as a mere barbarian and couldn't imagine him as their ruler. So too Hitler was seen by the British as "a screaming little defective," understandably aggrieved but easily pacified. Similarly America sees Iran as understandably aggrieved by our past involvement in her politics and, thus, we rationalize her "theology of violence, traditional chauvinism, and imperial ambitions that lie behind her pursuit of nuclear weapons."

Thornton argues that the West must have "the imagination" to see beyond pretexts and professed aims to the true goals of our adversaries, "no matter how bizarre or alien" to our secular, relativistic thinking.

Like the poor, doomsday books are something that we shall always have with us. But just as there is a distinction between the working poor and the lazy poor, so too some depictions of America's self-inflicted blindness are better than others. The Wages of Appeasement is a distinctively convincing reminder of how the West has compromised itself in the past and how America, the current incarnation of western civilization, is bent on a repeat performance.

012
Appeasement Bodes War Not Peace
by Terry Scambray
New Oxford Review

A review of The Wages of Appeasement: Ancient Athens, Munich, and Obama's America by Bruce S. Thornton. (Encounter Books, 2011 pp. 283)

http://victorhanson.com/articles/scambray040312.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
I’ll save you the suspense. Israel is going to attack Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities.

Of late, many have been discussing the virtues, challenges, risks, and potential consequences of an Israeli strike on Iran. Depending who you ask, a preemptive attack is an absolute necessity, the lesser of two evils, unwise, or reckless. Unfortunately, no well-informed and intellectually honest individual could say that they know the right course of action. There are rational arguments on all sides of this debate, but I’m not going to discuss why I think Israel should or shouldn’t attack. I’m going to tell you why they will attack. It’s already a done deal.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/why-israel-will-attack-iran
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
France getting tough:

uh..ahh....well...I mean....BWA HA HA HA hahahahaaaaaa!!!!


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 02:22pm PT




http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robcrilly/100149774/in-pakistan-your-moustache-or-your-life/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 12, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Federal ammunition has just sent a letter to it's dealers saying that ammunition orders for them will be pushed back due to high orders coming in from the US military who is ordering and stocking it heavily due to "Mid-eastern" uneasiness.

Soooooo, at a time of ending the Iraq war and the Afganistan war supposedly winding down, put that in your suspicious tin-foil hat equation and smoke it.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Apr 13, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Iran is looking forward to a war with Israeli. it will give the ayatollahs another chance to stay in power for the next 20-30 years and these days, such opportunity is golden and US and everyone else will benefit from this however, US is planning to have the missile shield in place around Russia to isolate Russians from future uprising of the Russian power in the area.Syria is the timer for this upcoming war and Russians and Chinese are not going to loose Syria like how they lost Libya.

If Iran goes down in war, the first thing they will do, they will take Saudi oil infrastructure down with it.



couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 13, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
Fattrad, I've seen that N Korean parallel and it doesn't hold water. China has supported N Korea long before they had Nukes and the US couldn't and wouldn't do anything then. Iran has no such similar support.


"If Iran goes down in war, the first thing they will do, they will take Saudi oil infrastructure down with it."

I agree with you Majid. I've got an ounce of gold bet on this. The idea that they will block the straight is a canard. I suspect that they will simply lob some missiles or send some sappers towards the big refinery's in various Sunni territory. Saudi Arabia for sure, possibly Kuwait, most likely not Turkey although a pipeline or 3 could certainly be targets) and score a win-win for their side.

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Apr 13, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
North Korea for china is no different than how Israeli is for US. Anytime china wants to shows its position in the area, they stick pin in to N Korea to agitate the westerners. International politics is very complex and beyond what a few publishers can post on their corporate media .

In reality, I'll watch oil prices, gold prices and food prices and all three are telling me that things are cooking for another war. when politicians can't fix things, they bring war to get the public's mind busy.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
Althought the majority of Iranians have little truck with the ayatollahs the
sad truth is that the ayatollahs have buttered their bread with the Revolutionary
Guard such that they are quite secure. The huge economic empire the Guard
has built with the ayatollahs' blessings has created an immense Praetorian
Guard that controls everything of importance. Mubarak tried to do this but
his efforts were school boy in comparison. What don't the Guards have a firm
grip on and the money to ensure it? Nothing of importance. It is the Caliphate Incarnate.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
THIS JUST IN:

Osama Bin Laden was living with 3 wives in one compound and didn't leave the house for 5 years. It is now being reported that he may have called the Navy Seals himself.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 16, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/04/video-senior-idf-officer-smashes-peaceful-activist-in-the-face-with-his-m-16.html


at least watch the first 15 seconds of the linked video

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 16, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
It looks like he was warned to stay back and ignored the order.

Are you drunk? The guy who gets hit is almost completely ignored until he is almost past the guy with the gun. Then the guy turns and hits him in the face. I watched 3 times in slowmo. There isn't in physical provocation and it's hard to tell if they speak to one another or not.

Guy deserved to get hit as much a Denny did in downtown LA.

You need help FAT.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 17, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Been climbing lately......................?
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Apr 17, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
fatty

I know Iranian people very well

by far better than someone who has never been there and get his news from Washington post ( a sub division of Haaretz)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 17, 2012 - 12:31pm PT

I certain Iran would be happy to quit all nuclear power for good if the world would force Israel to get rid of all their nukes in a verifiable way. They've been calling for a nuke free Mid-east for awhile now

Peace

Karl
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
The UN is saying one out of three children in Pakistan is molested.
Not too many would accuse the UN of being biased against a particular country,
unless it is the USA, so the only remaining question is how they came up
with this figure.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 17, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Fatty wrote

How about some truth. Iran has been using it's proxies to create wars for the last 20 years, remember Hezbollah????? Hamas????? Syria??????

I hope Israel has nukes, I'm not able to confirm or deny because of AIPAC briefings.

How ironic you should cry for truth and then pretend Israel's nukes are in question.

and proxies? If you include proxies, the number of wars the US as been involved it quadruples in the image I posted and Iran's goes to like "1"

Peace

karl
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 17, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Don't pick on Fatty, he's only trying to protect us from multiculturalism and keep our bloodlines pure....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Being molested is the least of the problems.

150 schoolgirls poisoned.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0417/breaking29.html

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 17, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Super radical Islam truly sucks but it's completely obvious after the soviet and US experience in Afghanistan that invading and dominating has no moderating effect on it and in fact makes people rally around it.

Hollywood makes a better (worse in some ways) agent of change for fundamentalist thinking than the Military

peace

Karl
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 17, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
What I'm protecting you from is having to live under Sharia Law, which is the goal of many national leaders in Islamic countries.

Dude, you cut and pasted that right out of Breivik's manifesto.

Edit for Fatts, read what your statements kinda read like to me.

Breivik says his rampage was meant to save Norway from being taken over by multicultural forces and to prevent ethnic cleansing of Norwegians, said his lawyer, Geir Lippestad. In his manifesto, Breivik railed against Muslim immigration and European liberalism, including the Labour Party, which he said was allowing the "Islamification of Europe."


I'm not accusing you of being this guy, but I see some disturbing similarity.

You don't want to do it yourself, but you've got no problem with us paying for a nice clean "over the horizon" war, or wars. Unfortunately, they don't stay clean or tidy or over the horizon. Rest assured that they're inside of somebody's horizon.
I'm no wilting flower either.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
FAT

Did you notice the officer motion three times "back" with the M16??

No I did not. I had someone who had never seen the video look at and describe what was seen.

"The guy with the gun moves it up and down twice, almost randomly."

It would be better if we could understand what was being said. Any volunteers?

If the protest was supposed to be peacful, why did the Palestinians have an ambulance present??????

Just guessing here, but in case of a (military) police riot?

I just scanned the associated article quickly, but didn't the "story" about what happened change dramatically, after the video appeared?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 18, 2012 - 07:38am PT
Fats, YOU are protecting us from nothing except obesity. Good on ya for keeping the donut supply to a minimum for the rest of us.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 18, 2012 - 08:54am PT
Occupying hostile muslim countries only creates fanatical martyrs unafraid to die. How would you like it if someone was occupying your backyard, kicking in your doors and hauling away your family in the dead of night? I'd want a little payback too.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 18, 2012 - 09:10am PT
He would suffer from the Vichy Syndrome.


No Bumping!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 19, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
The P5 nations will come to an agreement next month, and Netanyahu will have to abide Fats.

So, looks like the invasion won't occur, don't ya think?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 19, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Yeah fool, don't you know that nothing except peace comes after an over the horizon affair? No need for messy post-over-the-horizon invasions.
Heck, there won't even be any retaliation.

Those pesky Iranians will just step neatly back into line!

(For Fats) Old-n-droopy (.)(.)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 20, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
Yaay! Oh goody, (rubbing hands together)


survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 23, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
Netanyahu talking tough:

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Noticed this on one of my son's toys;


Know what that is?

Yay, separation of church and state and all that BS liberals keep spouting ONLY against Christians. Islam, that's okay....

My wife actually thinks it's just and "eye" and I'm paranoid. But look here and see what you think;
http://www.google.com/search?q=Islamic+symbols+crescent&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ayV&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uAWWT839K6zTiALe36CvCg&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=645&sei=uwWWT_uWAaKoiAKI4fGdCg

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
What does a toy have to do with church and state?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Ask a liberal that question, monolith. Could you imagine if a toy company put crosses on toys???
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
I still don't get it.

There are christian toys ya know.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
Monolith, they are clearly labeled as such too! This wasn't. Kinda like they hide it.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
Is your son praying to Mecca now?

You better start a boycott campaign.

A toy has nothing to do with church and state. People can believe in whatever religion they like, and can also serve in the government.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
You better start a boycott campaign.

Well, at least you kinda get my point.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
I wonder if Survival has anything to say about Samir? He crushed a girls head in with the butt of his rifle while she struggled for life.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/100254#.T5YSXvW-q1s

Now he's a hero!!! wOO-HOO!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
Here's one for the picture flashers (Survival), guess who was responsible for this blast?;

photo credit: Massoud Hossaini, AFP/Getty Images

Caption for the photo: Tarana Akbari, 12, screams after a suicide bombing at Abul Fazel Shrine in Kabul on Dec. 6, 2011


Heartbreaking sh#t....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Hey guess what Blue? I didn't say anything at all about who was responsible for what with those pix. Only trying to make a point with Fatty about war in general since he's always pumping "over the horizon" and "surgical strike" like there's some kind of tidy war.

Pay attention and you won't get lost.

I know you think that Taliban or Hamas bombs are so much more vile and offensive, but I happen to think that bombs ripping into innocent bodies suck, no matter whose side they come from.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 24, 2012 - 02:06am PT
You are paranoid Blew. And delusional if you see a secret sharia plot in toys.
But you do that good 'ol red neck Murrican thing and keep those evil Lego toys away from your kid.
He wll be so much better off not playing with foreign toys.

These are Logos
These are Legos


There is not the connection your fear sees.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 26, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
as i've said before, we can't have a clash without, at least, TWO civilizations:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135434/Outrage-Egypt-plans-farewell-intercourse-law-husbands-sex-dead-wives-hours-AFTER-death.html
Psilocyborg

climber
Apr 26, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Hot and cold go hand in hand. War and peace go hand in hand....you cannot have one without the other.

The bitch of it is, we all want to do what is RIGHT. All of us... jews, muslims, scientologists..... Obviously we all have a different idea of what is right.

Thats the catch 22. Ask a rock what is right, and you will have your answer.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 26, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
I know you think that Taliban or Hamas bombs are so much more vile and offensive, but I happen to think that bombs ripping into innocent bodies suck, no matter whose side they come from.

Intent and targeting is everything in conflict justice, Survival. You seem to only condemn attacks that target legit targets that hide amongst civis, and fail to openly condemn attacks that target innocent civis with no legit military value.

That's why I criticize you.

As far as the Islamist toys go, why would a company hide an Islamic crescent on a toy that is totally irrelevant? That doesn't seem bizarre? There were no other religious symbols.
Stephanie Bergner

Trad climber
Planet Send
Apr 26, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
Oh my goodness, fattrad, no way am I getting in on this.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 28, 2012 - 09:41am PT
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/armada-masses-near-iran/#more-79449
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 29, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/04/28

This is coming from the former head of Israeli inteligence. Far from a softie or a pinko...

Ex-Israeli Spymaster: Leaders 'Messianic'
Says Israel More and More Racist, Belligerent

The former head of Israel's Shin Bet security agency has accused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak of having "messianic feelings" behind their threats to launch a pre-emptive war on Iran and they should not be trusted.

"I don't have faith in the current leadership of Israel to lead us to an event of this magnitude, of war with Iran," Yuval Diskin said at a public meeting Friday, video of which was posted on the Internet the today and quickly became the lead news item in Israel.

"I do not believe in a leadership that makes decisions based on Messianic feelings," he continued. "I have seen them up close. They are not messiahs, these two, and they are not the people that I personally trust to lead Israel into an event."

Diskin said, "Over the past 10-15 years Israel has become more and more racist. All of the studies point to this. This is racism toward Arabs and toward foreigners, and we are also becoming a more belligerent society."
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Apr 29, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
Karl, given the tenor of many of your posts, I feel compelled to ask:

 Is Israeli racism wrong, but Arab racism OK?

 Is either OK?

 Does Arab racism exist?

 Is Arab racism taught to children in schools?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 30, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
All racism is wrong. I'm not a fan of legally Islamic States nor of Legally Jewish states either.

THere is a country of Israel but there is not country of Arab so they can't be compared like that. Saudi Arabia was more responsible for 9-11 than Iraq or even Afghanistan, but somehow they are our buddies and more oppressive than just about anywhere.

But that said, their borders are defined and they aren't in violation of UN security council resolutions about their borders nor are they occupying other lands that no country in the world says is theirs, nor are they expanding their footprint on occupied lands in violation of the will on the entire international community.

Israel gets away with this solely due to unconditional US support and I think that's wrong and counter productive to the peace process. As long as it keeps happening Arab resistance to the Israeli actions is going to happen just as the US would resist injustice to it's own people.

But if you read my last post, note that it's the former TOP Israeli spy sounding the alarm and we should pay attention to that. BTW, the Iranians are not Arabs

Peace

Karl
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Apr 30, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Karl:

1. I agree with almost everything you say in your post above;

2. Still, post after post, you cite only one set of wrongs (the Israeli wrongs), and basically ignore those of the other party. The Palestinians commit wrongs that are as egregious and as frequent (examples of unbelievable Palestinian wrongs include, to name just a few: teaching racism to infants, deliberately targeting civilians, and seeking the annihilation of an entire people/culture - and talk about getting a "pass" from the rest of the world...);

3. Whether you actually are or not, you sound like a jew-hating racist;

4. In other contexts you seem to try to post like someone who at least thinks he is not a racist; and

5. (Deep, deep, really deep sarcasm here) Arabs aren't Persians and Persians aren't Arabs? Wow, who knew? (Sorry, as a life-long student of history and current affairs - current read is in fact a book called "Immortal-" that part of your comment was just way over the top).
ahad aham

Trad climber
Apr 30, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
mt young, beg to differ

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Apr 30, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
Ahad, if you really think one side or the other in the Israeli Palestinian conflict is "more" wrong than the other you haven't thought it through.

Oh, sorry, you found it on the internet; it must be true.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Apr 30, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
i've followed this before there was an internet, sorry to say. good luck
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 30, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
Karl:

1. I agree with almost everything you say in your post above;

2. Still, post after post, you cite only one set of wrongs (the Israeli wrongs), and basically ignore those of the other party. The Palestinians commit wrongs that are as egregious and as frequent (examples of unbelievable Palestinian wrongs include, to name just a few: teaching racism to infants, deliberately targeting civilians, and seeking the annihilation of an entire people/culture - and talk about getting a "pass" from the rest of the world...);

The Palestinians aren't the ones with 200 nukes, F-16s or a modern army. You can look at the disparity in the casualty toll on innocent children killed on each side in the past 5 years and see the difference. Fatty is doing his best to present the Israeli side, I've got to offer the other perspective. Having studied this in depth, real depth, what we Americans don't understand is that Israel doesn't want peace with the Palestinians until they've squeezed out most of them and usurped all the decent land. This happens just diplomatically enough that we don't catch it. If peace breaks out, Israel knows just how to provoke more violence to justify more killing and land robbing. The proof is in the continued settlement activity in many places where even the US doesn't approve.

3. Whether you actually are or not, you sound like a jew-hating racist;

Let me clarify it for you. I am actually prejudiced against fundamentalist Islam. When I meet cool Muslim folks, I see their goodness. I Haven't met the fundamentalists but their policies turn me off.

My distaste for the Israeli government is just based on facts and I'd be happy to change when they change. I'd like to say a major "F*#k You" to all those who equate criticism of Israel to Jew Hating. I was almost married to a Jewish Girl for 9 years, I lived in an Orthodox Jewish household for two six month seasons and worked for an orthodox Jewish Bakery in Upstate New york as well. In India, I hung out with cool folks from Israel itself. Many of my best friends are Jewish and I seem to gravitate towards them as friends. Many of them are also critical of Israel. It's the responsibility of us to advocate morality for our own country and the countries we supply weapons to.

4. In other contexts you seem to try to post like someone who at least thinks he is not a racist; and

5. (Deep, deep, really deep sarcasm here) Arabs aren't Persians and Persians aren't Arabs? Wow, who knew? (Sorry, as a life-long student of history and current affairs - current read is in fact a book called "Immortal-" that part of your comment was just way over the top).

My last post was about the Spy Master of Israel complaining about the messianic drive to war with Iran. You posted up about Arabs. You haven't posted factual analysis of the issues on this thread so How would I know you're not ignorant? Best to state your knowledgable opinions rather than confronting someone else without backing up your stance.

peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 1, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
Great posts Karl.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 2, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
http://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-approves-call-up-of-22-idf-battalions/
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 2, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/201242811593745665.html

The radical transformation of Palestine's environment
Israel's occupation is largely responsible for the pollution and radical transformation of the Palestinian environment.

Ramallah, West Bank - Nowhere is the relationship between environmental protection and social justice displayed more clearly than between Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (oPT). The Israeli government takes great care to guarantee that its citizens enjoy the benefits of a clean and comfortable environment. The opposite is true in the occupied West Bank and Gaza, over which Israel has maintained ultimate control for almost 45 years.

There, Israel has instituted an exploitative regime that disregards the needs of the local population, and ignores the occupier's responsibility as a custodian of the environment as stipulated by the Geneva Conventions. This is particularly evident in how Israel distributes water, permits the environmentally destructive behaviour of Israeli settlers and prevents Palestinian development on the land it directly controls.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 4, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
Bizarro Islam
By Lyle Neff

*The following are excerpts from a Wikipedia article in a world similar to ours... yet completely different.*

In the Bizarro Koran, masculine modesty and humility are important values. Male handsomeness, being a constant temptation to women, must be disguised, for the prevention of sin. Thus Allah and the Prophet (Praised Be Her Fashion Sense) forbid tank tops, bicycle shorts, aviator sunglasses, chiselled cheekbones, tuxedoes and most forms of mousse.

There is a general proscription, in the Islamic world, against men doing anything that might inflame or sexually provoke women. Imams from Tripoli to Jarkata, therefore (by tradition an entirely female clergy) consider it sinful for males to ride motorcycles, get expensive haircuts, purchase espresso machines and / or earn large sums of money...

All Muslims are religiously required to journey once in their lifetime to the holy city of Mecca, now located in Ladies’ Arabia. That country’s national “ownership” of Mecca and other sacred sites sometimes causes friction with other Islamic countries, such as Chickdonesia...

Polygyny, or the taking of multiple husbands, is an accepted practice in many parts of the Muslim world. Indeed, a rich or powerful woman might take up to a dozen male spouses. Younger husbands are generally confined to living quarters of their own, sometimes called “man caves” (or, in Arabic, *him-harems*.) A traditional matriarch customarily makes intimate visits to each husband in turn, unless she is developing a bit of a migraine, or just feeling kind of blah...

Traditional Muslim headgear varies according to local custom, but its purpose is always to compel modesty in the Islamic man, and to curb improper lusts an Islamic woman might feel at the sight of a well-trimmed sideburn or rippling bicep.

Muslim men in the West often wear the he-jab, a kind of open-faced head scarf. It’s considered acceptable to decorate a he-jab with sports team logos, as long as they are suitably modest.

A more conservative covering is the boy-dor, a flowing hooded cloak whose main concern is the concealment of (possibly chiselled) abs. The boy-dor is common in Shemalia, where a sculpted six-pack is believed to be particularly sinful.

The ni-chap entirely covers a male Muslim, except for a small “window” at the eyes. Some imams, including the great Al-Lo Cal Yoghurt, say it is sinful for a Bluetooth headset to prutrude from a ni-chap’s aperture. Others say not.

Even more imprisoning is the bud-ka, a suffocating mobile tent which hides the male face and body entirely. A person in a bud-ka, or even a burka, is essentially denied access to such good things as paycheques, literature, sunshine, and comedy. It’s almost not funny.

http://propagandistmag.com/2012/05/02/bizarro-islam
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 5, 2012 - 12:14pm PT

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/in-a-palestinian-village-plagued-by-crime-a-thin-line-runs-between-burglars-and-idf-soldiers-1.428233

Published 10:55 04.05.12Latest update 10:55 04.05.12
In a Palestinian village plagued by crime, a thin line runs between burglars and IDF soldiers
Their town has a problem with robberies, so it was hardly surprising that the three Shawakhah brothers tried to defend their home upon seeing suspicious men in the street one night in March.
By Gideon Levy and Alex Levac
Tags: Jerusalem Palestinians Palestinian Authority



On March 23, in the middle of the night, an undercover force of the Duvdevan special-ops unit entered the prosperous and serene Palestinian village of Kafr Ramun, reportedly as part of a training exercise. Three brothers woke up, alarmed, thinking the men outside were thieves, and tried to chase them away with sticks and kitchen knives on the street. Without identifying themselves - the members of this unit operate in the guise of Arabs - the special-ops force fired 11 bullets at the brothers, continuing to shoot even after they were injured. One of the brothers was killed and the other two were severely wounded. The soldiers also kicked one of the brothers, and for a long time prevented all of them from receiving medical attention.

Army Radio initially reported that "terrorists" had tried to stab an Israel Defense Forces soldier; subsequently the IDF announced that the military Criminal Investigation Division would not be looking into the incident.


Akram, left, and Anwar Shawakhah.


A few days ago the two surviving brothers were released from a hospital in Israel. They say they are planning to sue the IDF.

The incident would not have occurred if the undercover soldiers had identified themselves to the three men. It also would not have occurred had the IDF refrained from entering a quiet village like Ramun in the middle of the night, ostensibly in order to train among its houses.

An avenue of old olive trees leads into this pretty village of large homes, northeast of Ramallah, at the edge of the Jordan Valley. About 3,000 residents remain in the village, while about 7,000 of their former neighbors are living in the diaspora, mainly in the United States - in Michigan, California and Florida. The expatriates' summer homes, some of them splendid stone villas, are a frequent target of break-ins when the owners are not in residence. The nearby Christian village of Taibeh is also well-endowed with luxurious and sometimes-empty summer homes, but it has a Palestinian police station, so the burglaries are fewer.

In Ramun everything gets stolen: the contents of homes, cars, livestock and pieces of metal. There is a nocturnal break-in every month or two.

The home of the Shawakhah brothers is in fact relatively modest. It is built on the side of a hill, and its three stories serve as a home to the brothers, their families and their father. A fourth brother lives in Michigan. Photos of the slain brother, Rashad Shawaha, who was married and the father of a baby when he died at the age of 28, now adorn every window in the house. A fig tree stands in the concrete-paved yard; a rooster can be heard from the neighboring house.

Hadija, the wife of Akram, one of the two wounded brothers, greets us in Portuguese: She immigrated here 15 years ago from Rio de Janeiro, to which her family had emigrated in the 1970s. The smell of freshly baked bread served warm is in the air, as we are joined by Anwar, 39, who limps and leans on his cane, and Akram, 36, who shows his abdomen, smashed by bullets and scarred by surgery.

Anwar and Akram work as truck drivers for the nearby cement factory; Rashad operated a cement pump. Together they would drive to work in the car they shared, together they would spend their evenings and together they were raising their children. Anwar has four children, Akram has five and Rashad's only daughter is 11 months old. Every night they would take turns guarding against robbers, their main concern being for their livestock in the nearby pen: 10 sheep, each one worth about NIS 2,000.



On the night of March 23, too, they had arranged the night watch among themselves: Akram's shift was at 1:30 A.M., Anwar's at 2:30 and Rashad's an hour later. Before 11 they went to sleep. At around 1:30, during his shift, Akram discerned two suspicious figures leaning against a neighbor's car, under the street lamp below the house. Akram was armed with a stick. The two suspicious figures apparently noticed him, and began to move in his direction.

Akram hastened into the house. He roused his brothers and told them two figures were approaching the house. Then he returned to the veranda, and found that the suspicious men were just a few meters away. Akram called to them to stop, while in the meantime Rashad and Anwar came up behind the suspects, kitchen knives in hand. It should be noted that sometimes burglars enter Ramun carrying firearms. Also, about five years ago a woman was killed in the course of a robbery in nearby Taibeh.

"Who are you guys? What are you doing here in the middle of the night?" Akram asked them in Arabic. One of them replied in what sounded to him like good Arabic with a Hebron accent: "Remember the Prophet, brother."

Anwar asked the two for identifying papers and one of them replied: "Don't worry, we know everyone who lives in the village." One of the men wore a jeans shirt, the other a brown jacket. When the brothers addressed them again, one of the strangers drew a pistol he was packing at the back of his waist. Rashad grabbed the hand with the weapon, but the man pulled the trigger and Rashad was shot in the thigh.

Rashad screamed, "My leg, my leg," but he continued to wrestle with the man, whose companion then also drew a pistol and aimed it at Rashad's head. When Akram saw this, he rushed to beat the first man on the head with the stick. The man then tried to fire at Akram, as Anwar came to his brother's aid. The man aimed his pistol at Anwar's head, Anwar managed to turn his face away - and the bullet penetrated his neck. The shooter then also fired at Akram, and a bullet penetrated his abdomen. Akram fell, tried to get up and was shot again in the abdomen.

A minute or two passed, then dozens of soldiers swarmed into the street and took up positions. The soldiers were in uniform but their faces were masked. The soldiers called on the brothers to stop, in Hebrew and in Arabic. Rashad and Anwar already lay bleeding on the road at the entrance to their home.

The brothers' wives and children, who had by now woken up, watched through the windows. They saw how a soldier went over to Akram, kicked him in the chest and put his foot on his head. Then the soldiers came inside and shut all the members of the family in one room. Akram had in the meantime let go of his stick and put his hands up. He says he was glad to see the soldiers, whom he thought had come to save them from the armed robbers. He says that had he known the "robbers" were undercover soldiers, the three of them would have hurried back into the house long beforehand.

Akram told the soldiers his brothers were wounded and that the burglars had shot them. In response one of the soldiers fired a bullet into his abdomen. Now he too fell to the ground. He tried to get up, but fell back down. The soldiers ordered him to strip and to turn over where he lay.

Akram and Anwar relate afterward that the soldiers looked very irritated. One of them fired at Rashad, who was lying wounded on the ground, one bullet to his chest and four to his abdomen. Rashad was still alive at that point. His two brothers heard him groaning in pain.

The brothers' elderly father came out of the house and asked the soldiers why they were shooting his sons. According to them, one of the soldiers replied: "Shut up, or we'll shoot you too."

Then the soldiers ordered the father to bring his sons' identity cards from inside; they then checked the cards by way of the computer in their jeep. The brothers say they lay there on the ground wounded some 40-60 minutes, while the checking process was under way. During that entire time, no one treated them for their wounds. In the meantime, a neighbor had called a Palestinian ambulance, but the soldiers did not allow it to approach. Only after checking the ID cards did the soldiers begin to tend the wounded men. Two of them helped Akram to his feet, and supported him as they walked him over to one of the armored vehicles parked on the street. They did the same with Anwar. They carried Rashad, whose body was entirely covered in blood, on a stretcher.

Two vehicles took them to Taibeh and from there to the Rimonim roadblock, where two Israeli ambulances met them and took the brothers to Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem. En route, the medics checked Rashad's pulse and pupils. He murmured: "I am going to die."

Akram, who was with him in the ambulance, tried to soothe him: "Don't worry. We will die together - or we will live together."

Akram remembers only the moment when the ambulance doors opened and he was taken to the emergency room. Anwar says they arrived at the hospital at approximately 3:30 A.M., about two hours after the incident began.

Akram regained full consciousness the following day. Anwar woke up only four days after arriving at the hospital. The doctors amputated Rashad's leg but he died five days after the incident. Akram was hospitalized for 11 days, Anwar for 15. A total of 11 bullets were fired at the three brothers - seven at Rashad, three at Akram and one at Anwar.

Anwar managed to leave the hospital for a few hours to attend his brother's funeral, but Akram was unable to do that. Their brother Amjad was summoned from America, as was their uncle who lives there. At first the family told Amjad that they thought it had been burglars who shot his three brothers.



A Shin Bet security services investigator called "Adam" questioned Anwar at the hospital and during the first five days the brothers were under guard. Adam told Anwar they had wounded one of the soldiers. Only then did he understand that the "burglars" were soldiers.

Akram and Anwar praise the care and treatment they received at Shaare Zedek. Their follow-up exam and further treatment will be done at a hospital in Ramallah, in order to spare themselves the hassle of obtaining entry permits to Jerusalem. They have already contacted attorney Lea Tsemel, who will file a damages suit on their behalf.

"If only they had told us they were soldiers," say the brothers over and over, almost apologetically.

B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories has warned in the past that the undercover unit's operational methods and especially their rules of engagement violate international law. In the incident's wake, the organization has applied to the military advocate general's office and has demanded that it order the army's CID to examine the circumstances of the incident. In the context of such an investigation, according to B'Tselem, it is also necessary to examine the command level that made the decision to enter the village.

This week, more than a month after the incident, the IDF has reversed its original decision, and the military advocate general's office has ordered a CID investigation.

This week the IDF Spokesman informed Haaretz: "In the wake of the incident in which a Palestinian resident was killed and his two brothers were shot and wounded by the IDF, the military advocate general has ordered the opening of a CID investigation. In the nature of things, while the investigation is in progress we cannot address the claims arising in the report."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 6, 2012 - 08:28am PT
Well, they haven't got to the libraries yet.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/islamic-extremists-desecrate-muslim-saints-timbuktu-tomb-201418842.html
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2012 - 04:08am PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 10, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/are-aussies-too-biased-to-try-this-muslim-man/story-e6freuzr-1226350436211
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 11, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
PhilO, does this have any meaning to you?


Timing is everything as it turns out.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 15, 2012 - 02:47am PT
Fattrad,

You know much more about the region than I do. I know this. But I care very much as a Christian for the nation of Israel, GOD's people.

So for everyone else . . .

You have to understand Israel to understand it’s World significance. Israel, the Jews, are “The Apple of GOD’s Eye.” Maybe Jewish and Christian surfers can help make people understand the whole Jewish – Christian – Muslim – Atheist relationship happening there and the difficulties. These people in this movie all have surfing in common. You have to have something in common. This certainly breaks down barriers. That is what we have here at ST to some degree. We all have climbing in common. But even then we hurdle internet bombs at one another. This shouldn't be.

Bottom line though, Israel has a right to defend itself. It’s surrounded by enemies. That is a very, very, very difficult situation to be in. The USA has to be there for Israel. Are we a friend of GOD’s people or not?


Promised Land – The Movie (see Trailer at Website)
http://promisedlandthemovie.com/

News Anchor Tom Jordan Covers Promised Land
http://youtu.be/W3IfAMsNn0M

Promised Land - Crisis In Gaza - KNSD TV
by WalkingOnWater
http://vimeo.com/38589332

KUSI News – Promised Land
by WalkingOnWater
http://vimeo.com/38928055
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 15, 2012 - 08:45am PT
as usual, steyn illustrates the "clash" with wit and insight


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/299725/spirit-geert-wilders-mark-steyn
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 15, 2012 - 11:24am PT

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 15, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
Hey! Fattie

You never responded to my post: remember last year I posted in “ Bin Laden’s Dead” May 13 2011 “Could be he encrypted messages in photos Fatty. He would have used this software or similar” with the photo of one program.

Any comment?

Al-Qaeda uses steganography - documents hidden in porn videos found on memory stick

02 May 2012 Source: ISE

Steganography is the science of hiding data. Its most common digital use is to hide data within graphics – text hidden in a picture. Al-Qaeda apparently hid documents within porn videos on a memory stick.
Maqsood Lodin, a 22-year-old Austrian, is on trial in Germany. It now emerges that when stopped and questioned by Berlin police almost exactly one year ago (16 May 2011, after traveling to Berlin from Pakistan via Hungary) he was found to have a memory stick hidden in his underpants. The memory stick contained two porn videos; but the porn videos were hiding around 100 documents believed to include al-Qaeda training manuals and operational details.

The basis for most of the current reports comes from CNN, which takes its source from an article in Die Zeit. The Die Zeit article is not currently online. However, the investigative journalist author of the article, Yassin Musharbash, has published an English-language summary of his findings, on his own blog. He discusses some of the details found in the recovered documents and whether they are genuine: how effective western intelligence has been in disrupting al-Qaeda operations, how suspected operatives should draw attention away from active plotters, and how concerned the leadership had become at the failure to deliver new attacks.

The documents of most interest, he says, are “Lessons learned from past operations – Reports on three past operations (7/7 London; 21/7 London (sic!); Airliner Plot) – a sketch for a terror campaign in the West.”
The current reports are all concerned with the politics of the situation. Sadly, no details are given on the technology: how were the files hidden; were they encrypted as well as hidden; how were they discovered and extracted? We have to surmise. Infosecurity asked RandomStorm’s security researcher Robin Wood to explain the concepts and methods behind steganography. “It can take many forms,” he said, “from simply hiding the information in clear text (that is, unencrypted) in unused portions of a host file, to encrypting the data and then actually modifying the contents of the host file.” We can assume that the latter more complicated approach was used in this case. But how?

“For storing in images,” says Wood, “what you can do is to encode the data in the least significant bit of a range of pixels. What you end up with is a slightly different image; but as it is the least significant bit, the color is changed so insignificantly that a viewer won't notice. Exactly the same can be done with video, changing areas where humans won't notice the almost insignificant change. And as video is a much denser file format – sound, image, transitions etc – there is much more capacity to hide the data.”

It would seem, however, that steganography is not too difficult to detect once it is suspected. “Retrieving the data depends on how it was hidden,” Wood told Infosecurity. “Most file formats have a recognizable footprint, so using tools which can look for that footprint in other files you can easily pull out data which has been just been added to an unused portion.” In this part, steganography is more akin to obfuscation than serious security. However, added Wood, “If the data has been encrypted and mixed in with the host data then it is harder – but there are other tools that use various techniques to spot content.”

Surprised with all your connections and knowledge especially the jacket would know this already?

Now Klimmer ranting his crap, Ah! When will it ever end: Jesus guns and Israel saving the USA.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 15, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Fattie

Exactly, you got that right, just like I thought.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
May 17, 2012 - 08:04am PT
I see mental masturbation is STILL alive and well on ST.
Cary on....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 17, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
For those of you who have an open mind and want to know more about the significance of Israel and why WE as the Nation of The USA should support her, this study guide will go a long way in helping you understand that.


http://promisedlandthemovie.com/


I've watched the DVD (fine surfing by Tom Curren et al. in the movie in Israel, very cool) and I now have the study guide that goes with it. Very well done. Israel is very significant to the World. Turn your back on Israel and you have turned your back on GOD as a nation. You don't want to ever do that. WE need to support Israel. Let it be so.


Promised Land Study Guide and DVD Combo:
https://store2.bandfarm.com/walkingonwater/product/?catID=18&prodID=3907

Learn something.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 17, 2012 - 02:37pm PT


Won’t miss them since I pretty much have everything I need, just sad that when or if the S#it hits the fan it is going to take them[economy] a long time to get back on their feet.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 18, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
So Klimmer, what is your take on the Palestinian issue?
Does standing by Israel mean standing by while Israel stands on the throat of Palestine?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 18, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
A human auction in Sody

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7db_1337099374
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 19, 2012 - 11:13am PT
“Does the flap of a butterfly's wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas?”
– Mathematician and chaos theorist Edward Lorenz


The Woman Who Blew Up the Arab World


http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/woman-who-blew-arab-world

Real journalism for a change, (and great writing)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 19, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
May 18, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
So Klimmer, what is your take on the Palestinian issue?
Does standing by Israel mean standing by while Israel stands on the throat of Palestine?


Like Fattrad qouted . . .


Alan M. Dershowitz
Several years ago I spoke at the University of California at Irvine, the very same campus where radical Islamic students tried to prevent Israel's ambassador, Professor Michael Oren, from speaking. I first asked for students to raise their hands if they generally support Israel. All the students to my left raised their hands. I then asked how many students supported the Palestinian side. All the students to my right raised their hands. I then asked the pro-Israel group: "How many of you would support a Palestinian state living in peace and without terrorism next to Israel?" Every single pro-Israel hand immediately went up.
I then asked how many on the pro-Palestine side would accept a Jewish state within the 1967 borders, with no settlements on territory claimed by the Palestinians. Not a single hand was raised. The debate was essentially over, as everyone recognized that this was not a conflict between pro-Israel and pro-Palestine groups, but rather a conflict between those who would accept a two-state solution and those who would reject any Jewish state anywhere in the Middle East. (Ynet News)



An Israeli testimony (Mr. Lieberman). . . a very important 44 min. testimony listen:

http://www.kehilatariel.org/wordpress/?p=1640

See KA Weekly messages. 4/28/2012 An Israeli Testimony

Also please listen to 5/5/12 Chevra-Ministering to Holocaust Survivors




That's my answer. I agree with his testimony. He explains it very well.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 22, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
What a lying sack of fluff you are TheStool.


Comparing the Palestinians to the 3rd Reich or the Japanese Empire.
Go stuff another donut.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 22, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
http://www.emirates247.com/crime/region/donkey-rape-sparks-tribal-massacre-in-yemen-2012-05-21-1.459649

Then there's the second story at the same link about the infidel monkey.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 23, 2012 - 01:38pm PT

BTw, met with a young Republican who is running for congress last night.

Did you explain to them that meeting with you will be the death knell of their political career?


And how is the State of Greater Israel coming?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 24, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
Hidden Nukes? Isn't that in Israel's purview?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 24, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
Because they are actively involved in utterly eliminating Palestine already.
No need to threaten what you are already doing.


If push comes to shove the Zionist will use their nukes even on the US.
If they used them regionally they will serve to poison themselves with deadly radioactive fallout.
GO FOR IT!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 27, 2012 - 09:09am PT
Perhaps we really are much closer in thought than presented? Example: can anyone not understand or agree with this one?

http://news.yahoo.com/lady-gagas-indonesia-concert-cancelled-045833841.html;_ylt=AiN746YPIXwOqZBllakuKvis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtYzJ1dWRnBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBGUARwa2cDNjc5MWNkMzEtM2M4OC0zNzkyLWE5N2EtZjJhZGJhODMwNDgwBHBvcwMxNgRzZWMDdG9wX3N0b3J5BHZlcgNhODljNGQyOC1hN2Y0LTExZTEtYjQ4Zi1iMGFiOTFkZDNlNTU-;_ylg=X3oDMTFlamZvM2ZlBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3

the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) threatened violence if Lady Gaga performed, calling her a "devil's messenger" who wears only a "bra and panties".

Should we not be intolerant towards tolerance?

new world order-

climber
May 27, 2012 - 10:26am PT
Peace is war. War is peace.

Where are all those who protested us/U.S. invading Iraq? Over a million dead Iraqis. Will you not do the same for Iran?

Obama is a puppet for the United Nations. He didn't bother with approval from Congress for Libya.
He just did what his masters (the UN/new world order government) told him.

And Romney would do exactly the same. There is no left-right paradigm.

Wake up!
new world order-

climber
May 27, 2012 - 10:58am PT
Your completely wacko
My "completely wacko"....what?

Obama invaded Libya (sans approval from Congress) didn't he?

I dare you to watch this video and think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f0sDWcZ4IY&feature=player_embedded#!

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 11:07am PT
"INVADED"? WTF? how do you define INVADE?
What if McShame & Failin were in office and did the same thing.
There wouldn't be a significant peep of discontent from the Right
and general approval from the Left.
In light of the Shrubbie's two illegal wars
-(both of which involved real INVASIONS and prolonged OCCUPATIONS)-
what did Obama do in regards to Libya that you wouldn't want done anyway?
Are you saying that you preferred the earlier Status Quo in Libya?
Oh and how many American service men and women died
in support of the freedom seeking Libyan rebels?
Compare that number with Spurious George's body count.

How can you feel Afghanistan and Iraq are justifiable
yet Libya was not?
Please explain.
new world order-

climber
May 27, 2012 - 11:15am PT
I digress. Your guysez god Obama can do no wrong.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 11:17am PT
NO, don't digress with inane fool drool. Try to answer the question.
new world order-

climber
May 27, 2012 - 11:21am PT
philo, you're part of the matrix. You don't want to understand.

A mind, like a parachute, works better when it's open.

peace out.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 11:27am PT
Romney already said he would invade
Obama has said he would not invade at this time

Dr. F, the key words in that quote are "at this time".

Obama is no different than the republican war hawks in this respect.

"We all prefer to resolve this issue diplomatically," Obama said in an address at the pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC's policy conference in Washington. "Having said that, Iran’s leaders should have no doubt about the resolve of the United States, just as they should not doubt Israel’s sovereign right to make its own decisions about what is required to meet its security needs. I have said that when it comes to preventing Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, I will take no options off the table, and I mean what I say."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-all-options-remain-on-the-table-to-prevent-a-nuclear-iran-1.416405


"All options remain on the table" is a euphemism for "we reserve the right to invade and/or nuke your azz"

Left and right mean nothing anymore. Like new world order said, wake up.

They are diametrically opposed
The very definition of a left-right paradigm

I think you've been watching too much mainstream media spin.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 11:37am PT
You guys are a hoot. You think you are the only ones with eyes wide open,
I have been well aware of the powerful forces involved since the 70s.

But what you don't acknowledge is the necessity to work with what you have to work with.
On a wall or mountain climb you may wish with all your heart that the gear was solid or the weather will hold or the runout not be terrifying. But you have to choose the options from the options you face at those times. Or go down, go home and shove your head in the sand.
There IS a difference between the two political parties and the outcomes they produce,
Choose.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 11:47am PT
It is a false choice!

Ron Paul (a republican) is now the only candidate for peace.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 11:49am PT
Then by all means vote for him.
It isn't just your Right to vote it is your Responsibility.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Voting was revealed as useless back in 2000 . . .
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
So Reeotch are you going to let that aggression stand.
RNC dirty tricks alone define a significant difference between the parties.
Do you remember how many people were telling Al Gore, the real winner of the election, to "give it up". Just because the sheeple let the election be stolen doesn't mean the system is a total sham.
Be vigilant, be aware, be informed, be involved, get off you ass and vote.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
So, what specific action on the part of the "sheeple" would have changed the outcome of Bush v. Gore. Mass Protests? Like the occupy movement?
Maybe if we all e-mailed our representatives?
Maybe if everybody just told the banks to take their debt and shove it?

We are given no meaningful choices in our political system.

It is like the electromagnetic spectrum: All we see is the visible light (roygbiv) despite the fact that this is only a small part of the entire spectrum from gamma rays to radio waves. And, so it is with our political spectrum. We operate in a very narrow band of the whole, which happens to lie at the far right end of the total political spectrum (both republicans and democrats).

The establishment is too entrenched to allow any real choices to enter in to the debate. Said debate has been moved so far to the right that there is no true liberalism anymore, at least at the federal level.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
So OBVIOUSLY Ron Paul is no real choice.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Of course not! Just look at the way he has been marginalized by the media and the RNC. They're terrified of him because he represents real choice. But, I don't delude myself that he has a snowball's chance in Death Valley.

I don't agree with much of his platform. He just serves as an illustrative example of how anything or anyone outside of that narrow political spectrum will be totally marginalized, distorted and shut down.

That's the main reason Paul ran as a republican and not as a liberatarian as he did in 2008. He knows there is no room for third party candidates or ideas in Washington.

And, until there is, there will be no meaningful change.

The only question is to what extent will our current system have to be deconstructed to allow real change and true democracy to exist.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 27, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
There is no TRUE Democracy. America was never intended to be a true Democracy.
We are a Representational Republic based on democratic principles. That system of governance requires citizens to be informed and involved. Too many people have been deluded to believe their vote doesn't count and thus the system is a failure and should be scrapped. Wake up! Put down the Fox, step away from the Limbaugh, be an American for gawd's sake.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
Hey! I'm down with that!

"Step away from the TV, put your brains back in your head, and think for yourself for once!"
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 27, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Yeah, maybe they should call it the Palestinian Reservation . . .
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 28, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Or the Palestinian Bantustan.
Or the World's largest most populated outdoor Prison Camp.

See Fats you are duplicitous as they come. When cornered you say you hope for the Palestinians to have a state of their own, with all the intollerable conditions you would impose of course. Then you make it clear that you never want them to live with peace, justice and liberty.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 28, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
PhilO, where do you see the country of Israel in your scenario? Jews move out into the ocean, Palestinians get the land?

Just asking.....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 28, 2012 - 12:05pm PT




Get real Couch. They lived together in peace before they can do it again.

The hackneyed narrative of being "pushed into the sea" has an interesting history as only the Palestinians have been forced into the sea by the Zionists. The Israelis in an effort to defuse the international condemnation of their brutal act started the myth of their risk of being driven into the sea. Learn the real history not the too oft told myths.

The State of Israel has already taken al but about 20% of the land and they keep taking more.
So What would your "solution" be Couchmaster?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 28, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Seems to me if I can put it in simple terms . . .




Judeo-Christian faith and attitude:

Established upon the covenant between GOD and Abraham, and carried on through his son Isaac.

Believe in GOD and read the Good Book. Abide by GOD's laws of love, peace, and justice.

The 2 Great Commandments:
Love and worship GOD with all your heart, mind and soul. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Upon these 2 Great commandments hang all the law of GOD and the prophets.

If you don't agree, then peace be to you. We won't hunt you down and kill you for your disbelief. Let us worship GOD as we feel we must, and let us be in peace. We will pray for you. Shalom.

(Yes, many atrocities were done in GOD's name, in Jesus Christ's name, throughout history, but GOD had nothing to do with it. They misappropriated his name and disobeyed his commandments.)


Judaism upon The Messiah coming to Jerusalem in the (near) future:

"Is this your first coming or did you come here to Earth once before?"


Christianity upon The Messiah coming to Jerusalem in the (near) future:

Thank you Lord Jesus Christ for returning as you said you would. You were here once before as the humble servant and high priest of GOD, and as The Lamb of GOD, our savior, dying taking on the sins of the world to save mankind. You have returned a second time as The King of Kings in Great Power and Glory to establish your Millennial reign and to fix the complete mess that mankind has made of your creation. Now we will see what real peace and happiness is truly like and how it can be if we always abide with GOD and do things his way.



GOD's chosen people the Jews, Israel, who carried the water for so long for GOD's deliverance of mankind, and brought to us the Messiah, The Savior of the World, we owe Israel sooooo much. The Jews, the Nation of Israel, will have their spiritual eyes opened and they will see Jesus Christ as The Messiah. It is prophesied to happen in The Good Book. It will happen. And The Jews, Israel, will weep for Their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, as a Mother weeps for her first born child. These will be tears of Joy.


In the end, Judeo-Christianity is truly one faith. Messianic Jews truly know this.





Islamic Faith and Attitude:

Starting back with Abraham and his son Ishmael . . .


There is no god but God, Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of God.

Follow the 5 Pillars of Islam.

Jesus was a good prophet.



There really are no exceptions to the above. Ultimately the elimination of all other faiths by force, or violence must be achieved. It truly is intolerant of anything else.

It does not accept the Nation of Israel, and works to the ultimate end of the state of Israel.

The faiths of Judaism and Christianity must be eliminated, and those who practice these faiths must be converted to the Islamic faith, or end up martyrs. We are infidels.










Perhaps very simplified but true none-the-less.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 28, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
On the Iranian issue, good assessment here: http://csis.org/files/publication/120518_%20Alterman_GulfKaleidoscope_Web.pdf
Deals with the larger diplomatic issues of engagement, containment, deterrence in a historical context.




As far as you being unable to answer my question regarding Israel and the Jews just upthread Phil, I'll just suggest that you might consider it deeper and more fully, and we can bring it up again later. You currently appear to have no idea or clue of a desirable positive outcome for either or both sides: you only appear to know what YOU "don't like". However, what YOU "don't like" gives you nothing positive to say, which is sad, but which can be overcome with a bit of time and study on your part. I'd suggest that much like the paper I linked, it is a complex issue with no fast or easy answers but you can certainly and easily pick a side. Which it appears that you and I have both done Phil.

Regards:

Bill

bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
May 28, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
see....the world would be better w/ Mc Cain and Palin!

Why did anyone vote for that damn peace lovin hippie muslim president???

the kid nailed it......enlist now or stop bitchin'

turn off FoX "news"

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 29, 2012 - 10:15am PT
Four women and two men have been sentenced to death in northern Pakistan for singing and dancing at a wedding, police say.

Clerics issued a decree after a mobile phone video emerged of the six enjoying themselves in a remote village in the mountainous district of Kohistan, 176km north of the capital Islamabad.


http://www.emirates247.com/offbeat/sentenced-to-death-for-singing-at-wedding-2012-05-29-1.460700
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 29, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
There is a PBS Frontline special on Al Qaeda in Yemen tonight. Saw the trailer advertised on Yahoo News today.

Looks interesting.



http://m.yahoo.com/?.tsrc=yahoo&mobile_view_default=true#/today/main


The program is on-line:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/al-qaeda-in-yemen/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 29, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
Great link, thanks Majid.

http://www.pacificrimcoins.com/pacrim/content/debka-massive-us-military-buildup-two-strategic-islands-socotra-and-masirah
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 29, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
Quit bumping your own thread, FT. It is kind of weird.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 29, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
Base104 said -
"Quit bumping your own thread, FT. It is kind of weird. "

That's just how he rolls man.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 30, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
What does Israeli dick taste like anyway?


Chicken? No wait, I bet it tastes like Hawk.....



Edit for Couch so as not to "bump".

My crack isn't particularly brutal, especially considering the way folks treat each other around here at times.
It's certainly no more obscene than Fat's non stop pounding of the war drums. As if we haven't had enough war lately, or enough to look forward to.
He doesn't give a damn about any peace negotiations or the deaths of many thousands of innocent people, Muslim or otherwise. Wait, let's see: "Yes, survival war is awful, but these Muslim leaders won't have it any other way".
Never mind the fact that Arabs and the Middle East in general has been getting sh#t on by the west ever since oil was discovered there.
Fatty is the Greedy Little Drummer Boy. War is profitable, he feckin' loves it. LOVES IT!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 30, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
bump for Bruce


http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1838960/Wow-The-taco-has-been-brutal-lately

Check it out yourself. Do you really want to help bump this thread to the top every few moments? lol

I'm sure Fatty is fine with it and all.
ahad aham

Trad climber
May 30, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
http://www.wrmea.org/special-topics/9748-us-aid-to-israel.html
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 30, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
ahad aham

Nice post. Here is another well-known put under the rug, do not let the US Taxpayers know.


And that is not even mentioning the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] as well as the JDL [Jewish Defense League] here in the US and abroad.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 30, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Costs? You're argueing costs? I've heard it argued that an aircraft carrier costs more and does less for American than Israel.(Perhaps former Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said it)


The Gerald Ford class carrier will cost $14 billion including research and development, and the actual cost of the carrier itself would be $9 billion.
...and staffing, fueling and maintenance a deployed 4,000 man ship costs.....?


Whereas from your (older) link:
For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon.

There are additional benefits (and negatives as well). For instance, although some of our $ funded it once they had built it and shown it worked, the US has not been able to (publicly) announce we were able to produce anything like the Israeli designed Iron Dome system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome
What would the savings of getting that from the Israelis instead of the usual R and D process be?


Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
May 31, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
who is paying for this service ?


http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-x-band-radar-the-us-military-is-pointing-towards-iran-right-now-2012-5

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 1, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
President Obama Cripples Iran's Computers:


WASHINGTON — From his first months in office, President Obama secretly ordered increasingly sophisticated attacks on the computer systems that run Iran’s main nuclear enrichment facilities, significantly expanding America’s first sustained use of cyberweapons, according to participants in the program.

»
Mr. Obama decided to accelerate the attacks — begun in the Bush administration and code-named Olympic Games — even after an element of the program accidentally became public in the summer of 2010 because of a programming error that allowed it to escape Iran’s Natanz plant and sent it around the world on the Internet. Computer security experts who began studying the worm, which had been developed by the United States and Israel, gave it a name: Stuxnet.http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/obama-ordered-wave-of-cyberattacks-against-iran.html




suck on it Fattass
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 1, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
You have to remember the Chinese as well as the Russians [.ru] have the same tools in their Cyber Arsenals to stop or make that so called defensive shield worthless. It has been hacked already by the people who built it to test and know its vulnerability.

"Hello? Can you hear me now" 'Hello?' Hello? "Cell plus other communication aren’t working". "Hello? Ah! sh#t now what do I do".

Welcome back to sticks and stones. Let the GAMES begin.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 1, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
Still spooked or unsure: read the update [3rd] on the site then can decide to download. Gives you an idea of what goes on.

To determine whether your computer is infected with Flamer, download the Bitdefender removal tool at

http://labs.bitdefender.com/2012/05/cyber-espionage-reaches-new-levels-with-flamer/

Twitter, Google, Facebook and the internet plus all the governments/countries; you got to love them and trust them; they are our friends or are they?

Sorry Fattie: Israel ain't going to save/protect us.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 2, 2012 - 09:44am PT
http://ph.omg.yahoo.com/news/turkish-pianist-charged-insulting-muslim-values-151651627.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 4, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
Liberal talk show host Tawfiq Okasha recently appeared on "Egypt Today," airing a video of Muslims slicing off a young man's head off for the crime of apostasy -- in this instance, the crime of converting to Christianity and refusing to renounce it. The video—be warned, it is immensely graphic—can be seen here (the actual execution appears from minute 1:13-4:00). For those who prefer not to view it, a summary follows:

A young man appears held down by masked men. His head is pulled back, with a knife to his throat. He does not struggle and appears resigned to his fate. Speaking in Arabic, the background speaker, or "narrator," chants a number of Muslim prayers and supplications, mostly condemning Christianity, which, because of the Trinity, is referred to as a polytheistic faith: "Let Allah be avenged on the polytheist apostate"; "Allah empower your religion, make it victorious against the polytheists"; "Allah, defeat the infidels at the hands of the Muslims," and "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger."

Then, to cries of "Allahu Akbar!"— Allah is greater!"—the masked man holding the knife to the apostate's throat begins to slice away, severing the head completely after approximately one minute of graphic knife-carving, as the victim drowns in blood. Finally, the severed head is held aloft to more Islamic slogans of victory.


http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3092/tunisia-muslims-slaughter-apostate

Haven't seen the video, have no desire too. The link is to the rest of the story.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
somebody turn on the fan:


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/israel-fitting-nuclear-arms-subs-005955787.html
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 4, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
try speaking hypothetically, fattrad
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 4, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
Boyz

Get yourself ready for ww3

The US is getting ready to attack Iran via air strike as 150.000 troops positioning themselves in the Persian Gulf area .




survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 5, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Jun 5, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
US Atrocities - Noam Chomsky:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/9555-noam-chomsky-somebody-elses-atrocities
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 5, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
I didn't see any atrocities.

Of course not. We're Americans, we don't commit atrocities.
Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples in furtherance of Manifest destiny constituted genocide. Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".[40] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[41] who speaks of the "genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States...."[42]

Determining how many people died as a direct result of armed conflict between Native Americans, and Europeans and their descendants, is difficult as accurate records were not always kept.[43] Various statistics have been developed concerning the devastation of the American Indian Wars on the peoples involved. One notable study by Gregory Michno used records dealing with figures "as a direct result of" engagements and concluded that "of the 21,586 total casualties tabulated in this survey, military personnel and civilians accounted for 6,596 (31%), while Indian casualties totaled about 14,990 (69%)." for the period of 1850–90. However, Michno says he "used the army's estimates in almost every case" & "the number of casualties in this study are inherently biased toward army estimations".[44]

In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that "an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today".[45] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[46] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[47]

Fatty dislikes Chomsky, and says he's only written one good book, even though he probably hasn't read any of them.
He's only one of the most admired intellectuals in the country. But Republicans can tell you, intellectuals are bad. The Nazis didn't like them either......
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 6, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Opps, clash hits New Jersey. Bottom line, Arab win. Binge and purge.

http://freebeacon.com/democrats-purge-pro-israel-congressman/

A stalwart Democratic defender of Israel lost his congressional primary bid Tuesday against a fellow Democratic lawmaker whose Arab supporters leveled charges of dual loyalty.

Longtime New Jersey Rep. Steve Rothman was bested by Rep. Bill Pascrell, who earned 61 percent of the vote after running a campaign that rallied the Arab community to the polls over Rothman’s support of the U.S.-Israel alliance.




ps, it seems to me that Chomsky comes off as just another anti-American whiner with little substance and no intellect on that link above.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 6, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that "an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today".[45] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[46] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[47]



Brought to you by the founder of the Democrat party.


Who won election by promising his southern supporters Cherokee land and then ignored the Supreme Court to accomplish it.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 6, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Maybe we'll finally get some "Kosher" laws.....
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 6, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Fatty

The Iranian already positioned 250.000 troops in southern Iran and French anti mine ships are headed to Persian Gulf as we talk. The situation in Syria does not look good and looks like , US is sticking their finger on Lebanon internal affairs.

There will be an important meeting between IAEA, 5+1 and Iran next month in Moscow and I already know the end result.


is going to be ugly
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 7, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Mr Tool, how do you respond to this report yesterday that an Israeli attack on Iran is a very Baaaad (sheep noise) idea? (I lifted the report from Joseph Wouks blog, it was reported in the Atlantic first if anyone wants to reference the original)


http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/jeffrey-goldberg-new-report-finds-an-israeli-attack-on-iran-to-be-a-comprehensively-bad-idea/


"Jeffrey Goldberg – New Report Finds an Israeli Attack on Iran to be a Comprehensively Bad Idea


Colin Kahl, who until recently served as the Pentagon’s top Middle East policy official, is just out with an exhaustive and authoritative report on the Iranian nuclear challenge. The report, written with Melissa G. Dalton and Matthew Irvine and published by the Center for a New American Security (where Kahl is a senior fellow), argues fairly persuasively that an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities — an attack they seem to believe is highly plausible, if I’m reading them correctly — would have a great many negative ramifications.

Their conclusions are well thought-out and argued (even the ones with which I disagree). The authors believe, among other things, that:

1) The Iranian threat is serious but not imminent;

2) Iran’s leaders are rational enough to believe that they would neither use a nuclear weapon or give one to terrorists (I’m not so sure they’re right on the first point, but pretty sure they’re right on the second — makes no sense to give your most prized weapon to unstable, and possibly semi-independent actors);

3) An Israeli-Iranian nuclear rivalry creates the risk of an inadvertent nuclear exchange (they downplay this risk somewhat, but not too much; I tend to think that inadvertent escalation to nuclear exchange is the prime reason to keep the bomb out of Iran’s hands);

4) Containment of a nuclear Iran is not a great option for the U.S. (I’m with them on that).

On the one hand, the report represents mainstream American defense thinking on this question. On the other hand, it is not at all mindless and reflexive, unlike much of what I read on this subject these days.

I thought it would be interesting to have a conversation about the report with Kahl, who is now at Georgetown University. What follows is our exchange, which is long, but seriously, read the whole damn thing — it’s important. I should also note that Kahl is the same guy who spent the past two years working assiduously from inside the Pentagon to strengthen and deepen America’s security relationship with Israel. Or, to put it another way, his opposition to an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear program is not motivated by animus toward Israel, but by a concern that Israel stands to do something precipitous that could bring harm to itself, and accelerate Iran’s drive toward a bomb.

Jeffrey Goldberg: You argue that an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities would almost certainly be disastrous for Israel. In a previous conversation (on Twitter), you suggested that Israel’s only real choice is to trust that the United States will prevent Iran from crossing the nuclear threshold. Israeli leaders point have pointed out to me that the United States wanted neither Pakistan nor North Korea to cross the nuclear threshold, but they did anyway. Why is this situation different? If you were an Israeli leader (or a Saudi, or Emirati, leader) would you trust the United States to use all elements of its national power to stop Iran from going nuclear?

Colin Kahl: Good question. I think there are several reasons Israel should trust the United States on the issue.

First, this administration has been pretty clear where it stands. Obama has consistently said that an Iranian nuclear weapon is unacceptable. He clearly prefers a diplomatic solution, believes a negotiated settlement is possible and the most sustainable outcome, and thinks there is time to pursue this course. Force should be a last resort, and there is still a window of opportunity to find a peaceful way out of this crisis. But Obama has also made clear that all options, including military force, are on the table to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. In both his interview with you in March and his AIPAC speech, Obama said he does not favor a policy of nuclear containment. And his Secretary of Defense has stated more than once that Iran’s development of a nuclear weapon would represent a “red line” for the United States.

Second, historically Obama is a guy who means what he says, and does what he says. And Obama has consistently matched his words with his deeds on Iran. During the 2008 campaign, he said he was willing to enter into unconditional negotiations to test the Iranian regime’s willingness to reach a diplomatic agreement, and that is what he did in 2009. When Iran proved unwilling and incapable of responding, the president said he would work to forge a historic consensus to increase pressure on the regime — and that too is exactly what he did in 2010-2011, working with the UN, international partners, and with the U.S. Congress to put in place the toughest sanctions Iran has ever faced.

Indeed, much tougher sanctions than the previous, ostensibly more “hawkish” Bush administration was ever able to accomplish. Israel and other partners should trust that he is willing to use all elements of national power to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons because he is already doing it. Sanctions, diplomatic efforts to isolate the Iranian regime, and intelligence activities have all been used and integrated toward that objective.

And, on the military front, when Obama says all options are on the table, he has actually backed that with concrete actions. Even as U.S. forces completed their drawdown from Iraq, he authorized the re-posturing of U.S. forces in the Gulf to ensure they were set to deal with any scenario, defend our partners, and check Iranian aggression in the region. He deployed a second aircraft carrier, improved U.S. air and missile defenses in the region, bolstered the defensive capabilities of Gulf states (including a record-setting arms package to the Saudis), and done more than any previous administration, in terms of security assistance and defense cooperation, for Israel’s security. Moreover, Gen. Martin Dempsey, the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has noted on more than one occasion that the United States military is prepared and has a viable plan for any Iran contingency, and Secretary Panetta and others have pointed to the unique capabilities the United States military has developed–most notably the Massive Ordinance Penetrator–to ensure the maximum prospects for success should they be called upon. So, when Obama says “all options are on the table,” these aren’t just words — the options are viable and the table has been set.

Third, Obama recognizes the threat a nuclear-armed Iran would pose to Israel’s security and to the stability of a region that is absolutely vital to U.S. interests. He also believes that if Iran is allowed to cross the nuclear threshold it would do grave damage to the non-proliferation regime — an issue that he cares passionately about. Because, in Obama’s view, it is a vital U.S. interest to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, one does not have to trust that he will take all necessary actions for Israel’s sake — one only has to trust that he will act in the U.S. national interest. He would clearly prefer not to use force — and has cautioned against cavalier and “loose” talk of war given the costs and uncertainties.

But Obama has shown, repeatedly, that he is willing to use force in the U.S. national interest — whether unilaterally or as part of a multilateral coalition. Don’t take my word on that front — just ask Osama Bin Laden or Muammar Gaddafi. Again, Obama clearly prefers a diplomatic solution, but no one should question the man’s mettle on issues like this.

Finally, I think the intelligence picture, the level of inspections, and the international focus is much greater in the case of Iran than was the case with either Pakistan or North Korea. As such, I think it is much less likely that Iran could slip across the nuclear threshold without us knowing about it in time to act. At the moment, for example, it would take at least four months for the Iranians to enrich to weapons-grade level, and they would have to do it at declared facilities — so they would get caught. Moreover, Western intelligence services have a pretty good track record of uncovering Iranian covert nuclear activities (e.g., Natanz and Fordow). I don’t mean to be sanguine about the intel picture — it is clearly imperfect and our assessments are fallible. But we are in a much better position to detect an Iranian break-out in time to act than was the case with other examples — and, importantly, we are already focusing all elements of national power on the issue so we are poised and capable of responding quickly in the event that the Iranians are foolish enough to try to dash to a bomb anytime soon.

JG: Okay, imagine you’re an intelligence officer with responsibility for Iran. You are handed evidence that Iran might — might — be trying a nuclear sneak-out. The evidence, like most such evidence in these cases, is ambiguous. You also know that if you, and your colleagues, were to reach the conclusion that Iran is making a dash for the bomb, you might be responsible for starting a war (intelligence officials certainly remember Iraq.) What I’m getting at is this: The U.S. intelligence community might understand that something nefarious is going on in Iran, but it might take months to process the intel, and the process might become politicized, precisely because the stakes are so high. So isn’t there a chance that even if we know more-or-less that Iran is making a move, we might not be able to respond in time?

CK: It depends on what the evidence is. Some types of evidence would be relatively clear. The most important evidence of a decision to go for a bomb would be the nature of enrichment activities — and, at least for now, these would likely be seen with enough time to react. If Iran diverted its existing stockpile of low-enriched uranium and began enriching above 90 percent or kicked out IAEA inspectors, that would both be noticed and be evidence of an intent to weaponize, and there would be enough time to react. Discovery of a wholly operational covert enrichment site (as distinct from Fordow, which was a structure under construction with no centrifuges in it when it was uncovered) might be another sign that Khamenei had made a decision to weaponize.

Where it gets trickier is if we started to see evidence that Khamenei had reversed the 2003 halt order on structured weaponization work (the order discussed by the 2007 unclassified NIE key judgments and (according to press reports) the 2010 update, and confirmed by the IAEA). We’d likely see it, but some of the evidence could be ambiguous and debated. That said, because of the technical hurdles (beyond just enrichment) that Iran would have to overcome to weaponize, current estimates suggest it would take a year from a decision to go for a bomb to generate a crude device. And that assumes a crash weaponization program. The more they rush, the more we’ll see it — and a year is a long time.

Still, at the end of the day, it is probably easier to see evidence of steps to produce weapons-grade uranium than it is to detect every element of covert weapons-related research and development, which is why it is important to limit Iran’s ability to substantially shrink their dash time to producing weapons-grade uranium. That is why the 20 percent LEU issue is so important — because, if they get one or more bombs worth of 20 percent uranium-235 they could shrink the time required to make the fissile material for the first bomb from four months to a couple of months. Similarly, if Iran began to install next generation centrifuges — which they are testing now, but have experienced problems with — on an industrial scale at Natanz or Fordow this could also shrink the dash time, because these machines are 3-4 times as efficient as the current models. If Iran were to successfully accomplish these steps, shrinking their dash time to a month or a few weeks, then you start getting into the margin for error where inspectors might miss something.

JG: The Iranian regime is ultimately interested in its own survival, and so direct pressure on the regime might force it to reconsider its nuclear goals. Do you think there’s an appetite in Washington for regime-destabilization, and do you think it could work — if not to bring down the regime, than to force it to deal with the demands of the international community vis-a-vis its nuclear ambitions?

CK: There is an important distinction between a strategy that aims to hold the regime “at risk” — what I would call a compellence strategy–and a policy that actually aims at regime change. The former increases the costs to the Iranian regime to the point that it forces a difficult strategic choice–in this case a scaling back of their nuclear ambitions–that they would otherwise prefer not to make. Unprecedented sanctions and the credible threat of force can hold the Iranian regime at risk and thus help compel a change in behavior — but only because the regime has a way out. If the regime changes its behavior, the pressure is lifted.

In contrast, a “regime change” campaign aims to topple the regime, regardless of what they do. It is grounded in the view that the current regime is irreconcilable and must fall. Applied to Iran, however, this approach is deeply problematic. For one thing, it would provide no positive incentive for the supreme leader to strike a nuclear bargain because doing so would get him nothing–it wouldn’t be enough to save the regime. And, worse, it would validate the Islamic Republic’s existing narrative about Western motivations and encourage Tehran to move more quickly for a bomb to produce a nuclear deterrent against externally-imposed regime change and in order to invest the international community in the continued stability of the regime. Moreover, if the policy succeeds, there is no guarantee that the regime that followed would be better–it could be an IRGC-dominated military dictatorship, for example. Or what follows might simply be state collapse and chaos.

So, while I think it is important to hold the regime at risk–and I think elements of the current strategy do that, or are at least starting to do that–I think a policy of regime change would be deeply counterproductive to resolving the current nuclear crisis.

JG: Why wouldn’t a regime change program help compel the Supreme Leader to alter his nuclear course? Why wouldn’t he trade aspects of his nuclear program for a Western promise to desist from regime-change operations?

CK: It completely depends on what the specific actions are. A lot of actions aimed at regime change might convince the supreme leader that we are committed to his demise no matter what he does — making a deal less likely, and a bomb more likely. Better to increase pressure in a way that holds the regime at risk — through tough sanctions and leaving military action on the table — rather than make regime change our policy. This gives Khamenei a way out.

JG: A final question: How do we know that Iran would respond to a strike against its nuclear facilities by doubling-down on its program and rushing to breakout? Is there a chance Iran might simply decide that a nuclear program isn’t worth it? Asked another way, is there anything that Israel or the U.S. could do to thwart Iran’s nuclear ambitions post-strike? Would this require follow-up strikes, or is there a non-military option?

CK: We don’t know anything for sure, but the most likely outcome of a strike is an attempt by the Iranian regime to rapidly rebuild its program. The regime is currently pursuing a nuclear “hedging” strategy in order to give it the technical capability to produce nuclear weapons at some point in the future if the supreme leader decides to do so. One motivation for pursuing this strategy is to provide a deterrent against future external threats to the regime, including a possible attack by Israel or the United States. Khamenei looks around and sees Muammar Gaddafi gone and Saddam Hussein gone, but the North Korean regime still around and he likely concludes that the biggest reason for the difference is the fact that North Korea developed nuclear weapons and the other two states had their programs removed. A second motivation for seeking the capability to produce nuclear weapons is likely the hope that it would boost Iran’s prestige and Tehran’s potential for coercive diplomacy, facilitating expanded Iranian influence and advancing the regime’s ambitions for regional hegemony.

A strike would confirm the regime’s vulnerability and buttress the perception of the unrelenting hostility of foreign powers, which would provide decisive support to those inside the regime arguing that only a nuclear deterrent could prevent future attacks and arm Iran with what it needs to lead the resistance against the West. At the same time, an attack would allow Iran to play the victim, kick out the IAEA, and perhaps leave the NPT all together. And, in the absence of inspectors on the ground, Iranian leaders would likely calculate that they could rebuild their program more easily and engage in illicit activities without being detected. An Israeli attack would also shatter the international consensus that is currently slowing Iran’s nuclear progress through sanctions and other counter-proliferation activities.

This is not purely hypothetical; we have a past example of this happening. As we discuss at length in our report, Israel’s 1981 strike on Osirak did not end Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program and actually led him to double down, devote more resources and better organize his program, and create a widely dispersed clandestine nuclear program that — by the time of the 1991 Gulf War — was a year or two away from producing a bomb. Ultimately, it was not the 1981 Osirak attack that ended the program, but rather the destruction of the 1991 Gulf War followed by more than a decade of sanctions, diplomatic isolation, no-fly zones, and periodic bombing that ended the program — and even then the Bush administration thought (incorrectly) elements of the program remained.

This brings me to a final point: the only way to prevent Iran from rebuilding its program after a strike is to have sufficient international consensus and a large enough coalition to create and maintain a post-strike containment regime. Sanctions and counter-proliferation measures designed to disrupt Iranian attempts to obtain the materials necessary to rebuild their program would have to be maintained, and there would have to be regional support for the continuation of a robust military presence and potential re-strikes.

The only way to create such a post-strike containment system is to go into the war with international support and a certain degree of international legitimacy. That means acting only after non-military options have been exhausted and in the face of evidence that Iran was going for a bomb (by enriching up to weapons grade or kicking out inspectors, for example). And it means the country leads the effort must be capable of crafting and holding together a coalition. Only the United States can meet these criteria. (By the way, the criteria are so stringent because the potential costs of military action are so high and the benefits are so uncertain.)

In 2003, the Bush administration made the historic error of launching war to disarm a regime they claimed was pursuing WMD without sufficient evidence that the Iraqi threat was imminent, without sufficient international support, and without a plan for the day after. We can’t make that mistake again."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2012 - 12:20am PT
CAIRO (AP) — A mob of hundreds of men have assaulted women holding a march demanding an end to sexual harassment, with the attackers overwhelming the male guardians and groping and molesting several of the female marchers in Cairo's Tahrir Square.
From the ferocity of Friday's assault, some of the victims said it appeared to have been an organized attempt to drive women out of demonstrations and trample on the pro-democracy protest movement.
The attack follows smaller scale assaults on women this week in Tahrir, the epicenter of the uprising that forced Hosni Mubarak to step down last year. Thousands have been gathering in the square this week in protests over a variety of issues — mainly over worries that presidential elections this month will secure the continued rule by elements of Mubarak's regime backed by the ruling military.
Earlier in the week, an Associated Press reporter witnessed around 200 men assault a woman who eventually fainted before men trying to help could reach her.
Friday's march was called to demand an end to sexual assaults. Around 50 women participated, surrounded by a larger group of male supporters who joined to hands to form a protective ring around them. The protesters carried posters saying, "The people want to cut the hand of the sexual harasser," and chanted, "The Egyptian girl says it loudly, harassment is barbaric."
After the marchers entered a crowded corner of the square, a group of men waded into the group of women, heckling them and groping them. The male supporters tried to fend them off, and it turned into a melee involving a mob of hundreds.
The marchers tried to flee while the attackers chased them and male supporters tried to protect them. But the attackers persisted, cornering several women against a metal sidewalk railing, including an Associated Press reporter, shoving their hands down their clothes and trying to grab their bags. The male supporters fought back, swinging belts and fists and throwing water.
Eventually, the women were able to reach refuge in a nearby building with the mob still outside until they finally got out to safety.
"After what I saw and heard today. I am furious at so many things. Why beat a girl and strip her off? Why?" wrote Sally Zohney, one of the organizers of the event on Twitter.
The persistence of the attack raised the belief of many that it was intentional, though who orchestrated it was unclear.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/RSS/tabid/69/smid/414/ArticleID/184243/t/Mob-attacks-women-at-Egypt-anti-sex-assault-rally/Default.aspx
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 10, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
There is a book out there that should be read by all. The author is in fear of his life as a result. And a particular government is keeping him from harm by virtual house arrest, and as well as for also making a video that went viral on the internet, regarding all of which you (Fattrad) speak.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 11, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Iran in Prophecy

Iran is always in the news today making threats against Israel and the USA, but Bible prophecy already tells us if Iran’s threats will succeed. Ahmadinejad’s plan to wipe Israel off the map with nuclear weapons will backfire and cause his own people to flee Iran. It’s the next prophecy to be fulfilled and may affect everyone who depends on the flow of Middle East oil through the Strait of Hormuz.

http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/iran-prophecy.htm
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 12, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Dude on youtube going against fatty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNeknF82H_0&feature=related
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Speaking of nuts!

It gets good at the end when he starts blameing Tom and Jerry cartoons.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

He's got Hobbes bass ackwards as well
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
I don't think Bibi is to worried about that one.

about all Iran has been able to produce in modern weapons systems is really bad photo shop images.


That doesn't discount at all the real threat of a Uranium bomb.

Any high school kid with access to weapons grade material and a machine shop can build the ultimate pipe bomb.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 14, 2012 - 02:10am PT
well fatty

looks like Russians are sending massive arms to Syria while US is shipping things to opposition forces from Saudi, Jourdan,Turkey and special ops from Israeli are all in Syria with 15000 Iranian revolutionary guards and ghods forces.

Talk about Lebanon in early 80s

F*#king Clinton is going full force on WW3 to get Iran
juar

Sport climber
socal
Jun 15, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
hows that jive with all the hundreds of miles of us controlled airspace they would have to fly through to get their?

their planes have some super secret get out of interdiction system which would allow them to just get a pass?

seems like there would have to be stand down after stand down after stand down commands given to our military assets as these planes flew across so many seperate jurisdiction of american security control

hard to imagine they would even dare without it being previously arranged

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 19, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
So far the IAEA meeting in Russia is not going anywhere
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Dagan warns of Netanyahu's poor judgment

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan is more concerned over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak's lack of leadership skills, than Iranian or Palestinian threats.

By Ari Shavit | Jun.03, 2011 | 6:15 AM

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan is extremely concerned about September 2011. He is not afraid that tens of thousands of demonstrators may overrun the settlements or Jerusalem. He is afraid that Israel's subsequent isolation will push its leaders to the wall and cause them to take reckless action against Iran.

It's not the Iranians or the Palestinians who are keeping Dagan awake at night, but Israel's leadership. He does not trust the judgment of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
The Israeli media acted like its Soviet counterpart yesterday, dedicating huge headlines, full pages and many hours of broadcasts to Dagan's speech at Tel Aviv University on Wednesday.

But Dagan did not make a speech, he gave an interview. The difference is immense. Dagan did not intend to say all those things Wednesday night. They stemmed from a deep and uncontrollable need to tell the truth.

Two fears drove Dagan to speak. One is the fear of a comprehensive regional war that Israel would have difficulty surviving. Ariel Sharon's trauma was the Israeli defeat at Latrun in 1948. Dagan's trauma was Israel's defeat in Sinai in the opening days of October 1973. Because of this trauma, he feels a supreme moral duty to prevent an unnecessary war.
Thus even though he knew he was defying convention, he decided to speak out. He will not be party to a silence like the one that preceded the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Dagan's second concern is the status quo. Dagan is no leftist, as Likud ministers have termed him. He does not believe in peace with Syria or an immediate final-status agreement with the Palestinians. He strongly objects to establishing a Palestinian state in the 1967 lines or to any compromise on the refugees' "right of return." He does not believe in immediately evacuating the settlements.

But Dagan thinks that Israel, for its own sake, must take the initiative in the peace process. He advocates cooperating with the moderate Arab states and transferring extensive areas of the West Bank to the Palestinians. And he raised the creative idea of recognizing a Palestinian state providing that its borders remain subject to negotiation.

Dagan's worldview is a hybrid of those of Sharon and Ehud Olmert. He has high regard for both former prime ministers' ability to communicate with foreign leaders. He does not detect such an ability in the current prime minister.

When the former Mossad chief observes the recent regional changes, he is concerned first and foremost by what is happening in Egypt. He discerns weakness and lack of control in the country's military regime. He does not fear a takeover by the Muslim Brotherhood, but rather a slide into chaos.

He sees Saudi Arabia as the strongest, most important state in the Middle East. His support for the Saudi peace initiative (as opposed to the modified version known as the Arab Peace Initiative ) is linked to his warm regard for Riyadh and the hope that it will contribute to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the future.

Dagan surprised his audience at Tel Aviv University with a coherent worldview, eloquence and rare civic courage. It is absolutely clear that in ordinary times, some of the things he said should not have been uttered. But in Dagan's view, these are not ordinary times. It's one minute till midnight.

HAARETZ Tuesday, June 19 2012 Sivan 29, 5772
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Israeli Strike on Iran Would Be ‘Stupid,’ Ex-Spy Chief Says

By ISABEL KERSHNER

Published: May 8, 2011

JERUSALEM — Israel’s former intelligence chief has said that a strike on Iran’s nuclear installations would be “a stupid idea,” adding that military action might not achieve all of its goals and could lead to a long war.

Dan Balilty/Agence France-Presse

Meir Dagan said an attack on Iran's nuclear program could lead to a long regional war.

The intelligence official, Meir Dagan, who retired in early January after eight years as director of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, made the remarks at a conference here on Friday. His assessment contradicts the policy of the country’s political leaders, who have long argued in favor of a credible military option against Iran’s nuclear program.

The defense minister, Ehud Barak, criticized Mr. Dagan after his comments were widely publicized in the Israeli news media on Sunday.

Mr. Barak, saying that Mr. Dagan deserved credit for his contributions to state security, contended that he was “not wise to share his thoughts, legitimate as they may be,” with the general public.

“In the end of the day, these issues and decisions belong by their nature to the political echelon,” Mr. Barak said, adding that he was not sure that Mr. Dagan’s assessment was correct.

Iran has maintained that its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes, but Israeli, American and European officials believe that it is intended to produce nuclear weapons.

Independent analysts said that such a public stand by a respected figure like Mr. Dagan would complicate any plans the government might have to attack Iran.

Mr. Dagan, speaking for the first time in public since his retirement, was addressing a conference of senior public servants. His remarks were confirmed by a person who attended the conference, which was held at Belgium House, the faculty club of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Mr. Dagan is known to have long opposed military action against Iran, but he had never said so publicly. Mr. Dagan, who also said Friday that Iran must not be allowed to produce nuclear weapons, has advocated covert means of setting back the Iranian program.

Israel considers the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran as an existential threat.

Speaking last week at a ceremony marking Israel’s Holocaust Remembrance Day, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on the world to “unequivocally condemn those who call for the obliteration of the Jewish state.”

“Iran is even arming itself with nuclear weapons to realize that goal, and until now the world has not stopped it,” he said. “The threat to our existence, to our future, is not theoretical. It cannot be swept under the carpet; it cannot be reduced. It faces us and all humanity, and it must be thwarted.”

It is not the first time that Mr. Dagan has courted controversy where Iran is concerned since he left office. In January, he told a group of Israeli reporters that he believed Iran would not be able to build a nuclear weapon before 2015, a year or more later than other Israeli estimates.

His revised assessment was based on obstacles that Iran has faced, including technical difficulties and covert actions against its nuclear program by intelligence agencies, according to Israeli news reports.
Some Israeli officials reacted furiously, worried that Mr. Dagan’s comments could reduce pressure on Iran.

But other Israelis, including two other former leaders of Mossad, said it was important for Mr. Dagan to be able to express his opinion. One official, who spoke at the time on the condition of anonymity because of the subject’s delicacy, said, “It has never been about when exactly they will get the device.”

The real challenge over the next 12 to 18 months, the official said, is to prevent Iran from reaching the threshold of nuclear weapons capability. An unexpected technological breakthrough in Iran is possible, he said.

Arguing that this was a time for more diplomatic pressure, not less, the official said that Mr. Dagan’s 2015 assessment might have been partly intended to quiet the drums of war, but that it was nevertheless “really unfortunate.”

He made headlines a few weeks ago when he asserted at a Hebrew University conference that a military attack on Iran would be “a stupid idea.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
A Former Spy Chief Questions the Judgment of Israeli Leaders

By ETHAN BRONNER

Published: June 3, 2011

JERUSALEM — The man who ran Israel’s Mossad spy agency until January contends that Israel’s top leaders lack judgment and that the anticipated pressures of international isolation as the Palestinians campaign for statehood could lead to rash decisions — like an airstrike on Iran.
Meir Dagan, left, the former chief of the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad, said he feared that in his absence there would be no counterweight to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, right.

The former intelligence chief, Meir Dagan, who stepped down after eight years in the post, has made several unusual public appearances and statements in recent weeks. He made headlines a few weeks ago when he asserted at a Hebrew University conference that a military attack on Iran would be “a stupid idea.”

This week Mr. Dagan, speaking at Tel Aviv University, said that attacking Iran “would mean regional war, and in that case you would have given Iran the best possible reason to continue the nuclear program.” He added, “The regional challenge that Israel would face would be impossible.”

Mr. Dagan went on to complain that Israel had failed to put forward a peace initiative with the Palestinians and that it had foolishly ignored the Saudi peace initiative promising full diplomatic relations in exchange for a return to the 1967 border lines. He worried that Israel would soon be pushed into a corner.

On Thursday he got more specific, naming Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, but this time through a leaked statement to journalists. The statement had to do with his belief that his retirement and the retirement of other top security chiefs had taken away a necessary alternative voice in decision making.

In recent months, the military chief of staff, Gabi Ashkenazi, and the director of the Shin Bet internal security agency, Yuval Diskin, have also stepped down. Mr. Dagan was quoted in several newspapers as saying that the three of them had served as a counterweight to Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Barak.

“I decided to speak out because when I was in office, Diskin, Ashkenazi and I could block any dangerous adventure,” he was quoted as saying. “Now I am afraid that there is no one to stop Bibi and Barak,” he added, using Mr. Netanyahu’s nickname.

Journalists recalled that Mr. Dagan, who had refused contact with the media during his time in office, called a news briefing the last week of his tenure and laid out his concerns about an attack on Iran. But military censorship prevented his words from being reported.

“Dagan wanted to send a message to the Israeli public, but the censors stopped him,” Ronen Bergman of the newspaper Yediot Aharonot said by telephone. “So now that he is out of office he is going over the heads of the censors by speaking publicly.”

Mr. Dagan’s public and critical comments, at the age of 66 and after a long and widely admired career, have shaken the political establishment. The prime minister’s office declined requests for a response, although ministers have attacked Mr. Dagan. He has also found an echo among the nation’s commentators who have been ringing similar alarms.

“It’s not the Iranians or the Palestinians who are keeping Dagan awake at night but Israel’s leadership,” Ari Shavit asserted on the front page of the newspaper Haaretz on Friday.

“He does not trust the judgment of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.”

It was Mr. Shavit who interviewed Mr. Dagan on stage at Tel Aviv University this week. And while Haaretz is the home of the country’s left wing, Mr. Shavit is more of a centrist.

“Dagan is really worried about September,” Mr. Shavit said in a telephone interview, referring to the month when the Palestinians are expected to ask the United Nations General Assembly to recognize their state within the 1967 border lines. The resolution is expected to pass and to bring new forms of international pressure on Israel. “He is afraid that Israel’s isolation will cause its leaders to take reckless action against Iran,” he said.

Nahum Barnea, a commentator for Yediot Aharonot, wrote on Friday that Mr. Dagan was not alone. Naming the other retired security chiefs and adding Amos Yadlin, who recently retired as chief of military intelligence, Mr. Barnea said that they shared Mr. Dagan’s criticism.

“This is not a military junta that has conspired against the elected leadership,” Mr. Barnea wrote. “These are people who, through their positions, were exposed to the state’s most closely guarded secrets and participated in the most intimate discussions with the prime minister and the defense minister. It is not so much that their opinion is important as civilians; their testimony is important as people who were there. And their testimony is troubling.”

This concern was backed by a former Mossad official, Gad Shimron, who spoke Friday on Israel Radio.

Mr. Shimron said: “I want everyone to pay attention to the fact that the three tribal elders, Ashkenazi, Diskin and Dagan, within a very short time, are all telling the people of Israel: take note, something is going on that we couldn’t talk about until now, and now we are talking about it.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and that is the decision-making process. The leadership makes fiery statements, we stepped on the brakes, we are no longer there and we don’t know what will happen. And that’s why we are saying this aloud.”

Neither Mr. Ashkenazi nor Mr. Diskin has made any public statements, and one high-level military official said he did not believe that they shared Mr. Dagan’s views.

While in office, Mr. Dagan served three prime ministers, was reappointed twice and oversaw a number of reported operations that Israelis consider great successes — forcing delays in Iran’s nuclear program through sabotaging its computers and assassinating scientists; setting the groundwork for an attack on a nuclear reactor in Syria in 2007; and assassinating Imad Mughniyeh, a top Lebanese Hezbollah operative, in 2008.

When Ariel Sharon, the prime minister in 2002, appointed Mr. Dagan, he was reported to have told him he wanted “a Mossad with a knife between its teeth.” Mr. Dagan is widely thought to have complied and is not seen as a soft-hearted liberal.

Although Mr. Dagan is barred by law from elected office for three years, some suspect that he is laying the foundation for a political career. Others, like Yossi Peled, a government minister from the Likud party and a former military commander, think he is doing more harm than good.

“It damages state security,” Mr. Peled said on Israel Radio. “There is no need to give the other side directions of thought, activity or readiness. I am sure he is very worried and is acting out of good intentions, but I still think there are things that shouldn’t be declared in public.”

ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/tourism-in-israeli-settlements-practice-shooting-palestinians.html
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 19, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
Thanks Ahad Ahem for posting that bit of despicable reality.

Oh but I am sure that compared to the children's cartoons in the middle east this will be seen as a little lark to the die hard Zionist appologists
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
Fattie

Just reminding since you might have missed it or was it one of those “do not show and tell”. You have such a balanced opinion? Baa hhaaaaaaa. It looks to me AIPAC pays your dues or you get in free as long as you spread disinformation and war: coward.

Here is an update give a day or two.

Ex-Mossad Chief: Israeli Attack Would Help Iran Go Nuclear

By Jeffrey Goldberg

Jun 13 2012, 11:10 AM ET

Meir Dagan says Bibi and Barak are serious about attacking the Islamic Republic.

Meir Dagan, the recently retired chief of the Mossad, Israel's foreign intelligence service (Reuters)

Gen. Benny Gantz, the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, spoke out last week against ex-military and intelligence officials who are expressing doubts about the efficacy of a preemptive Israeli military strike on Iran's nuclear project.

Gantz, testifying in the Knesset, said, "There is a lot of chatter and conversation regarding Iran. Very few people know what is real and what is not, or what can be and what cannot be." Gantz named no names, but his targets were quite obviously three men: his predecessor as chief of staff, Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi; the former head of the Shabak, Israel's internal security service, Yuval Diskin; and Meir Dagan, the recently retired chief of the Mossad, Israel's foreign intelligence service.

It is Dagan who has taken the lead in criticizing his former boss, the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the defense minister, Ehud Barak, for contemplating a preemptive aerial strike. Dagan came out of the gate early and strong, stating, in early 2011, shortly after his retirement (a retirement that was forced by Netanyahu), that attacking Iran is a "stupid idea." He has not let up since.

For those of us who have asked, on occasion, whether Netanyahu and Barak are actually preparing to strike Iran or are simply trying to bluff the international community, Dagan's harsh, and repeated, statements about the plans of the current government need to be taken seriously: Dagan believes firmly that Bibi and Barak are not bluffing. Which is why he is so agitated.

Earlier this month, I accompanied David Bradley, the chairman and owner of the Atlantic Media Company, on a visit to Dagan's Tel Aviv apartment in order to discuss the Iran issue. (David and I spent much of our time in Israel interviewing senior officials on this issue, though in Jerusalem as well as in Amman and Ramallah, we also talked about the stalled peace process - but more on that later).

When David and I walked into the lobby of Dagan's very modern apartment building, we noticed a couple of suspicious looking young men loitering near the elevator. One of them approached us and said, simply, "He's waiting," and then put us on the elevator. Dagan answered his own door, greeting us in a kind of gruff, matter-of-fact manner - he is, at 67, rotund, but there is a hardness to him that is easily discernible. Before joining the Mossad, he was one of Ariel Sharon's favorite generals, and he made his career in the Israel Defense Forces as a renowned hunter of terrorists. He is said to have devised some of the most effective anti-terror raids Israel has ever conducted.

We sat in his living room, which is decorated with his own paintings; like Peter Zvi Malkin, the legendary Mossad agent who seized Eichmann in Argentina, Dagan is a painter, but a painter of simple, almost pastoral scenes. One painting over his shoulder caught my eye - an old man sitting in an obviously eastern market. I asked him what inspired the painting. "It's an old man I once saw in Tabriz," he said. Tabriz, of course, is in Iran.

His paintings may be naïve, but Dagan himself is not. When he says he doesn't believe Netanyahu and Barak are bluffing, I tend to believe him. It seems unlikely that a man like Dagan is easily tricked. At one point, we asked him if he believed there was even a small chance that he was the target of a deception campaign run by the prime minister and defense minister. After all, Dagan's criticisms of what he sees as Netanyahu's recklessness have quite efficiently buttressed fears in Iran, and across the world, that Israel may launch a precipitous strike. Dagan's public criticisms of Netanyahu and Barak have been quite useful to the Israeli government, which needs its threats to be understood as credible, both in Tehran and in Washington. Dagan, however, dismissed this notion out of hand. "They are very serious," he said, referring to Netanyahu and Barak. "I'm taking the threat of an Israeli attack very seriously." He added, with a measure of disgust, and incredulity, in his voice, "If the prime minister and defense minister are creating a deception campaign against the intelligence apparatus then they don't deserve their jobs."

It is highly unlikely that Dagan would fall victim to such a deception campaign (which would, of course, be difficult for Netanyahu and Barak to execute over time, especially inside the Israeli intelligence system). What is only slightly more likely is that Dagan himself is part of the deception campaign, playing the role of the rogue ex-intelligence chief in order to advance his government's goal of concentrating the world's attention on the Iranian problem. My understanding is that some Iranian officials believe this to be the case, but it is a) impossible to prove, and b) fairly implausible, even for the Middle East.

What is most likely is that Dagan's criticisms are entirely sincere. They certainly seem heartfelt. In our hour-long conversation, Dagan outlined his many objections to the idea of an Israeli strike, but he began by disavowing the notion that he is anything like a dove. He does not believe that Israel could easily survive in a Middle East dominated by a nuclear Iran, and he believes that the Iranian regime might not be entirely rational, that elements of the Islamic Republic's leadership might be motivated by extreme eschatalogical beliefs to contemplate committing unthinkable acts.

In other words, Dagan is someone who takes seriously the genocidal threats of Iranian leaders, and their nuclear intentions - "Iran has come to the conclusion that it needs a bomb" -- and it is for this reason that he made himself the principal architect of Israel's program of anti-Iranian sabotage, subterfuge and cyberwarfare (the last one being run jointly with the United States, as David Sanger has recently shown.) One of the criticisms I hear of Dagan, particularly in Israeli Air Force circles, is that he believes a bit too much in the capacity of Israel's intelligence services to subvert the Iranian nuclear program by themselves. (Dagan would not talk about this, naturally: When I noted that he directed the Mossad's anti-Iran operations of the past several years, he looked at me stonily - never averting his eyes - and said, "I'm not aware of that.")

All this is to say that Meir Dagan is not a pacifist. He told David and me explicitly that the threat of military action should be held out as an absolute last resort, but he is angry that Israeli leaders have turned what should be understood as a problem for the entire world into a specifically Israeli issue. "We made a huge mistake by making this our problem," he said.

But what angers him most is what he sees as a total lack of understanding on the part of the men who lead the Israeli government about what may come the day after an Israeli strike. Some senior Israeli officials have argued to me that a strike on Iran's nuclear facilities might actually trigger the eventual downfall of the regime. Dagan predicts the opposite: "Judging by the war Iran fought against Iraq, even people who supported the Shah, even the Communists, joined hands with (Ayatollah) Khomeini to fight Saddam," he said, adding, "In case of an attack, political pressure on the regime will disappear. If Israel will attack, there is no doubt in my mind that this will also provide them with the justification to go ahead and move quickly to nuclear weapons." He also predicted that the sanctions program engineered principally by President Obama may collapse as a result of an Israeli strike, which would make it easier for Iran to obtain the material necessary for it to cross the nuclear threshold.

Dagan believes that sanctions may still yet work, especially the sort of sanctions, combined with sabotage programs, that threaten the stability of the regime. If the Iranian economy is squeezed in a way that causes average citizens to rise up against their government's policies, Dagan believes that the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, might be forced to shelve his nuclear ambitions. And Dagan believes the tempo of sabotage should, if anything, be increased. "Covert operations have a better impact on proliferation than an attack.," he said.

Dagan is quite convincing on these points, but what is even more convincing to me is his C.V. He has devoted his entire life to the defense of the Jewish state. And like Netanyahu, he fears a Second Holocaust. The first one took an atrocious toll on his family. In his Mossad office, Dagan displayed two photographs taken by German soldiers as they were about to carry out the murder of the Jews in the Polish town of Lukov. The photographs show other Germans standing over a kneeling Jewish man draped in a tallis, a prayer shawl. The man, who was apparently executed moments later, was Ber Erlich Sloshny, Meir Dagan's grandfather. Dagan told visitors to his office who saw the photographs this:

"When I look at these photographs I promise that I will do whatever I can to make sure that something like this never happens again."

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 19, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/tourism-in-israeli-settlements-practice-shooting-palestinians.html
Tourism in Israeli settlements: Practice shooting Palestinians
This article was originally published on June 18, 2012 on Abir Kopty's website.

Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronot published a story today (June 18th, 2012) about a tourist activity offered by Gush Etzion settlements, where visitors can practice how to shoot "terrorists".

Stories about such tours both in settlements and army bases are always published, but no serious attention given to such scary culture of hatred and violence.
Teach your children well.

eljay says:
June 19, 2012 at 10:09 am
Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist citizens of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state – living on stolen, cleansed and/or occupied land – teach budding oppressors how to shoot “terrorists”. How wonderfully ironic.

From the ynet article:
>> Michel Brown, 40, a Miami banker, chose to take his wife and three children to the range with the purpose of “teaching them values.” Upon entering the range, his five-year-old daughter, Tamara, bursts into tears. A half hour later, she is holding a gun and shooting clay bullets like a pro. “This is part of their education,” Michel says as he proudly watches his daughter. “They should know where they come from and also feel some action.”

Michel Brown is one sick f*ck.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 19, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
Ahad, are you suggesting that the missiles that regularly hit Israel are not from Palestinians?

Todays news:
"Hamas took responsibility for the almost hourly barrage of Qassam missiles launched against Israel Tuesday, During the day, military facilities, Ashkelon, Sderot, and the Eshkol and Shear Hanegev districts were targeted. After nightfall a missile was fired further afield at Netivot. Most landed on open ground, except for a wheat field which was set on fire. Red alerts sent people into shelters to escape casualties. The Palestinians report two dead from an Israeli air strike at a missile team near Deir al-Balakh, six Monday in preventive Israel attacks."

Not news in the US press. Are you suggesting that it isn't Palestinians firing these missiles at Israel daily, but rather some kind of tooth fairy like creatures? Or by this link you provide are you suggesting that it isn't terrorism as the missiles are not USUALLY killing civilians? It will not be terrorism until they refine them and they become more accurate so as to strike their intended targets: Israeli civilians, so as to strike terror? Perhaps you can define what you posted means?

I can only suggest that both sides need to seek peace.,I suspect that if this was Laredo Texas or San Diego taking missile strikes onto civilian populated areas from somewhere in Mexico on a regular basis, I suspect that the US would devastate whomever was doing it and a few more to be sure so as to never have to see another missile from them....ever. Should Israel be so different?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 19, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/tourism-in-israeli-settlements-practice-shooting-palestinians.html
Tourism in Israeli settlements: Practice shooting Palestinians
This article was originally published on June 18, 2012 on Abir Kopty's website.

Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronot published a story today (June 18th, 2012) about a tourist activity offered by Gush Etzion settlements, where visitors can practice how to shoot "terrorists".

Stories about such tours both in settlements and army bases are always published, but no serious attention given to such scary culture of hatred and violence.
Teach your children well.

eljay says:
June 19, 2012 at 10:09 am
Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist citizens of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state – living on stolen, cleansed and/or occupied land – teach budding oppressors how to shoot “terrorists”. How wonderfully ironic.

From the ynet article:
>> Michel Brown, 40, a Miami banker, chose to take his wife and three children to the range with the purpose of “teaching them values.” Upon entering the range, his five-year-old daughter, Tamara, bursts into tears. A half hour later, she is holding a gun and shooting clay bullets like a pro. “This is part of their education,” Michel says as he proudly watches his daughter. “They should know where they come from and also feel some action.”

Michel Brown is one sick f*ck.
WBraun

climber
Jun 19, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
The leaders of the world today are morons.

Bibi is one of the biggest morons on the planet.

Too many morons does not make a happy planet .....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Numerois articles about mandatory military camps for palestinian kids.
Show the links to that statement Fats.
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 20, 2012 - 06:42am PT
sure enough couch. i suspect if the people of laredo texas or san diego had their property taken by eastern europeans with no historical connection to that land they would be fighting mad.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 20, 2012 - 09:20am PT
We still mistakenly call those Indians Ahad. Except they have learned to live with us in peace, and vice versa. Do you think that were they still nursing a grudge about that - that perhaps the world might be radically different? Not in a good way. Peace is working out for both of us.

regards to all
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 20, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
You know it really comes down to this.

There is only one nation, one people that were ever specifically given land by GOD on Earth, and personally by GOD, the children of and the decendants of Abraham through Isaac, and that was the nation of and the people of Israel of the Judaic/Hebrew faith. The chosen ones.

They have carried the water for GOD for thousands of years and have brought to the World salvation and reconcilation to GOD, through Yeshua.

No one else has this claim on the Holy Land, the Promised Land, but Israel.

You should do what you can to help Israel protect her land and her way of life.


No oe else has these rights to this land.

There is only one piece missing from the puzzle for the nation of Israel, and that last piece is coming soon . . .



Zechariah 12:10 (KJV)

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."



Shalom.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Except Klimmer that "Covenant was broken when they did not live up to their end of the bargain. They are in breach of contract, their claim is null and void.


And on another note...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/joe-the-plumber-blames-holocaust-on-gun-control-in-new-ad-jewish-democrats-demand-apology-1.439724

'Joe the Plumber' blames Holocaust on gun control in new ad; Jewish Democrats demand apology
The man who made a name for himself during Obama's presidential campaign is trying to win Ohio's ninth district.
By Natasha Mozgovaya | Jun.20, 2012 | 1:53 AM



Rarely do the sideshows outlive the main campaign, but Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher from Ohio, better known as "Joe the Plumber," who became a national celebrity during the 2008 presidential elections, is trying to defy the rule and reinvent himself as an independent politician.

Wurzelbacher became famous thanks to the question he posed to then presidential candidate, Barack Obama, during his campaign stop in Ohio. And thanks Obama's answer: "When you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody."

Wurzelbacher took part in the rallies of some Republican candidates, went on to report from the Gaza border, and is now running for Congress, trying to win Ohio's ninth district from the Democratic incumbent Marcy Kaptur.

In the recent past, the Holocaust proved to be a troubling topic for some of the Republican candidates, but Wurzelbacher certainly had time to think about his message, which appears in his online campaign ad. In the video, the candidate is seen holding his gun, shooting vegetables and, in between, revealing his position that links gun control laws, the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide.

“In 1911, Turkey established gun control", he says. "From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were exterminated. In 1939, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, six million Jews and seven million others unable to defend themselves were exterminated.”

At the end of the short video, he smiles lightly and concludes: "I love America.”

The National Jewish Democratic Council President and CEO David Harris demanded Wurzelbacher apologize. "Using the memories of the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust to make a political point is never appropriate, under any circumstances", he said.

"For Ohio Republican House candidate Samuel Wurzelbacher to imply that these innocent lives were taken because of gun control laws is simply beyond the pale. Wurzelbacher, who is just the latest in a long line of Republicans who seem to think it is acceptable to use the Holocaust for political gain, must apologize and remove this offensive video immediately," he added.
Your kind of guy Fats. A totally delusional FatHead. Real classy.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 20, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Philo,


No it wasn't. Read again the promise above.

It is true that Israel rejected the Messiah at his first Earthly arrival, that was prophecied to happen, but they won't at his second coming. At that point their spritual eyes will be open.

GOD never goes back on his promises and covenants. NEVER.

Israel is and always has been "The Apple of HIS Eye." Even when she is stubborn and not listening to GOD, he still loves her and will always protect her.

The last puzzle piece is going to be fit into place soon. It's a promise. The Jews around the world continue to return to Israel, their Promised Land. Just as it was prophecied to happen. It's gonna happen soon. I beleive it will come to completion within our lifetime.

Never turn your back on Israel. To do so you turn your back on GOD.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
BullSh#t Klimmer read the original covenant. The Jews were obligated to care for the other indigenous peoples as if they were the brothers. Which in fact they were. Nothing in the covenant allowed for purging and slaughters. They have no more God Claim to the land than my dog does.


It's the GodDamned 21st century, the Bible is a sack of poorly written allegories written by political hacks hundreds of years after the facts. Follow it verbatim if you will but then follow what it says.
The Covenant was broken long ago which may explain why God keeps bitch slapping them.


Never turn your back on Israel. To do so you turn your back on GOD.
If Israel hadn't turned their back on God that might mean something.


Where does God condone the abyssmal treatment of the Palestinians and imported migrant workers?
Who would God use white phosphorous and DIME weapons on?
Is your God such a bigoted butcher?.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
Fats I've been busy with something important. Newsflash it isn't you.
For every link you post I can produce two to the contrary.

But I really hope the Jews find a peaceful homeland.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 20, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
Philo,

Theologically you are absolutely wrong on everything.




Morally and ethically you have a point.

Do I love America and our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes, I do. It's the best we have until GOD governs the world from Jerusalem and we abide by his Holy Laws.

Do I agree with all decisions that our US government makes? No I don't. We have a right to protect ourselves and our way of life, we don't have the right to be a big world-wide bully and go and pick fights and take another country's resources.

Do I love Israel? Yes, I do. I love and want to protect Israel because GOD in my heart compels me to do so. They are my spiritual brothers and sisters. We may not see eye to eye at the moment, but one day we will. One day the nation of Israel will accept Yeshua as the Messiah. It's going to happen as prophesied. I will love her and protect her always just like GOD does. Love is patient.

Do I agree with how the government of Israel sometimes acts? No. They have a right to protect themselves and their way of life. And like the USA they do not have a right to be bullies and mistreat other nations or people.

The people of Israel are mostly in favor of letting Palestine have their own nation state and be in existence along side the nation of Israel as long as they don't continue terrorism.

The Islamic state nations surrounding Israel don't seem to want to give the Nation of Israel the same right to existence.

It's as simple as that.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 20, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Klimmer

Have you lived anywhere in the ME ?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
Quit mirroring Fats.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 20, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Majid,

No. But I know people who have. My good friend and my first paragliding instructor was Meni Raviv. He was a Israeli paragliding top pilot and champion. He lost his life at Torrey Pines. Miss him.

I listen to several Messianic Rabbis. I read and try to understand what's going on in the ME. It has tremendous importance to all the World.

You may not understand it at the moment but Israel is the center of Earth's spiritual world. There is a reason GOD cares for her, and we should too.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
I care for Israel enough that I truly hope he/she/it would give up their charade and live in peace with their brothers.

If you want to live in fear or adulation of Biblical Prophesy that's no skin off my nose.
Just don't try to rush the rapture, I have kids that I love.

Teach your children well.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 20, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
So what do you say we eliminate the desperate suicide bombers and arm the Palestinians to the same capacity that we have Israel. Aren't level playing fields a good thing?
Or do you prefer tanks crushing brick throwers? That worked so well in China and the Soviet satellites.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Jun 21, 2012 - 08:24am PT
Jeff,
That fence is turning Israel into the largest ghetto the world has ever scene....
Truly is sad.
A shining example of what "conservatism" can do for a society.

Sheesh!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 21, 2012 - 09:15am PT
Israeli military links settlement school to ‘Jewish terrorist’ organizing efforts
JULY 18, 2011 BY OCCUPIEDPALESTINE 0 COMMENTS

Monday July 18, 2011 01:32 by Saed Bannoura – IMEMC News

The Od Yosef Chai yeshiva religious school in the settlement of Yitzhar, near Nablus, faces a possible closure, after the Israeli military commander found it to harbor a number of ‘Jewish terrorists’ and promote ideas that are not ‘consistent with democracy’.


Yitzhar settlement on hilltop overlooking Palestinian olive groves (image by shomron.co.il)

The head of the military’s Central Command, Avi Mizrahi, made the statement on Israel’s Channel Two television, while at the same time carefully differentiating between the extreme right-wing of the settler movement, which Mizrahi said were a small minority, and the rest of the Israeli settlers, which now number over 500,000 people living in violation of international law in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Rabbis Yitzhak Shapira and Yosef Elitzur, both residents of Yitzhar settlement, published the controversial book ‘Torat Hamelech’ in November of 2009, which advocates the killing of non-Jews, including babies, whose presence is deemed to be a threat to the state of Israel.

Rabbi Shapira heads the Dorshei Yichudcha Yeshiva high school in Yitzhar settlement, and is responsible for the education of most of the settlement’s youth.

The book states that non-Jews are “uncompassionate by nature” and attacking them will “curb their evil inclination.” Right-wing Rabbi Ya’akov Yosef was briefly detained by Israeli authorities in late June for his public endorsement of the book, but was released after right-wing Israelis protested and demanded his release.

Yitzhar settlement is known as one of the most extreme right-wing ideological settlements in the West Bank. Dozens of incidents of violence have been documented by Israeli settlers from Yitzhar against Palestinians in nearby villages, including a 2008 rampage through the village of Assira al-Kabaliya in which dozens of Palestinian homes were torched and ten Palestinians were injured. The settlement was established in 1984 as a military base, on lands stolen from Palestinians, and turned into a civilian colony the following year, in violation of Israel’s obligations as an occupying power under the Fourth Geneva Convention, which forbids the transfer of civilian populations onto land seized by military force.

In the last several weeks, settler violence in the area has increased, particularly after the brief detention of Rabbi Ya’akov Yosef by Israeli authorities in late June. On July 10th, settlers from Yitzhar invaded the Palestinian village of Assira al-Kabaliya and threw stones at residents while Israeli soldiers stood by and watched. Israeli settlers also burned down 400 olive trees which were the main source of livelihood for Palestinian families from the village.

A spokesman for the settlement told Israeli reporters that the statement by the Israeli military official is meant to ‘persecute’ the settlers, and that the military should not act as the judge in their affairs.

Israeli military Demolishes Palestinian school to make way for military base
Jewish Taliban
Civil Administration issues demolition order against the school, though residents have no access to any other.
By
Akiva Eldar
May.14, 2012
12:30 AM

A Palestinian elementary school was shut down last week after
Israel's Civil Administration confiscated the vehicle used to transport
teachers to it.


Teachers initially tried coming to the school, located in the Jinba cave
village in the southern Hebron hills, by donkey, but this proved
disruptive since they were often late.


On Sunday, the administration also confiscated the car of a veterinarian
employed by the Palestinian Authority when he came to the village to
vaccinate sheep. The vehicles were seized as part of a stepped-up
enforcement campaign in Area C, the part of the West Bank under full
Israeli control.


The Civil Administration also issued a demolition order against the
school, though residents have no access to any other school: The nearest
is in Yatta, 20 kilometers away.


In addition, it ordered an access road, tents, mud huts, sheepfolds and
solar energy facilities razed, reinstating demolition orders frozen by
agreement with the state prosecution in 2007.


In 1999, the area was declared a live-fire exercise zone by the Israel
Defense Forces, meaning people aren't allowed to live there. The
residents were evicted but petitioned the High Court of Justice, which
issued an interim injunction allowing them to return until it issues a
final ruling. Ever since, the case has been stuck in court, with the
state requesting and receiving continual postponements of the deadline
for filing its response. Last month, the state promised to file its
response within 30 days.


The residents' attorney, Shlomo Lecker, told Haaretz that the wave of
confiscations and demolition orders is a serious violation of the High
Court's injunction. "It's the state that asked to delay hearing the
petition for the last 12 years, and you can't expect hundreds of
residents of the cave village to have their lives put on hold for such a
long time - that the access road to the site would be blocked, and they
would be denied the possibility of giving their children compulsory
education," he said.


Dror Etkes, who has monitored West Bank settlement activity for years,
told Haaretz that three settlement outposts had recently expanded into
the live-fire zone: Avigail, Mitzpeh Yair and Havat Ma'on. "But as far
as I know, there are no restrictions on their movement in the area, and
none of their vehicles have been confiscated," he said. "I also don't
know of any active army exercise area within this live-fire zone. In
most of it, there never were any exercises."


The Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories said the
court would hear the petition against the army's declaration of the
live-fire zone in a few days, and the state would give its response
there.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-closes-palestinian-school-to-make-way-for-west-bank-training-zone-1.430233[/quote]

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 21, 2012 - 09:40am PT
“To know that you do not know is the best.
To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease.”
― Lao Tzu
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 21, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Becuase I care and support Israel . . .

I often get emails from Stand for Israel. They have a great deal to say about the situation:

http://www.standforisrael.org/

http://blog.standforisrael.org/

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jun 21, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
eljay says:
June 19, 2012 at 10:09 am
Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist citizens of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state – living on stolen, cleansed and/or occupied land – teach budding oppressors how to shoot “terrorists”. How wonderfully ironic.

From the ynet article:
>> Michel Brown, 40, a Miami banker, chose to take his wife and three children to the range with the purpose of “teaching them values.” Upon entering the range, his five-year-old daughter, Tamara, bursts into tears. A half hour later, she is holding a gun and shooting clay bullets like a pro. “This is part of their education,” Michel says as he proudly watches his daughter. “They should know where they come from and also feel some action.”

Michel Brown is one sick f*ck.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 21, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
fatty

is AIPAC supporting Obama on this election or not ?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 21, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Two Out of Three Jews Support President Obama


A new poll of American Jews, conducted by Public Religion Research Institute, finds that 62 percent of Jewish voters prefer Obama over a generic Republican. About a third of American Jews prefer a Republican candidate. Of those that prefer a GOP candidate, 56 percent back Mitt Romney. Among voters who backed Obama in 2008, 86 percent want him reelected – with 7 percent crossing over to support a generic Republican.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 22, 2012 - 01:47am PT
Come on fatty

Without AIPAC approval, no one gets to DC
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 22, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
The fuse may have just been lit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9349777/Syria-shoots-down-Turkish-fighter-jet.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 23, 2012 - 11:11am PT
Ehud Barak weighs in, excerpts on slate: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2012/06/israeli_defense_minister_ehud_barak_and_iran_s_nuclear_program_when_might_israel_attack_.single.html

"Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak sat down this week in Tel Aviv with Lally Weymouth. Excerpts:

Q. An Israeli was killed this week in the south by someone from the Sinai. How do you see the situation in the Sinai?

A. It was another terror attack on our project to build a fence [between Israel and Egypt]. We have a crash program now to build a fence to block the flood of workers from Eritrea and North Sudan and terrorists and smugglers into Israel. This [incident] follows another rocket attack near Eilat from Sinai. That's dangerous because it means a loss of grip on the Sinai by the Egyptian authorities, and the terrorists abuse this. We are determined to stop the infiltration and to deal with terrorist attacks and the launching of rockets into Israel from Sinai.
Advertisement

What's your view of the outcome of the Egyptian elections?

It's up to the Egyptian people. We expect whomever will be elected to establish a government that will live up to the international commitments of Egypt, including the peace treaty with Israel and keeping law and order in the Sinai.

This week, nuclear talks between the "P5 + 1" [United States, Britain, France, China, Russia and Germany] and Iran resumed in Russia. Do you hold out any hope for these talks?

We hope that we'll wake up and there will be an agreement to end the Iranian nuclear weapons program. But we are too realistic. Sanctions are working better than in the past; diplomacy is more determined. But if I have to ask myself whether this will convince the ayatollahs to sit around the table and decide that the time has come to put an end to the military nuclear program, I don't think that's the case. They still feel there is room for maneuver. There is still a need both to ratchet up the sanctions and to heighten significantly the demands on the Iranians that would put an end to enrichment, would take all the enriched uranium out of the country, and would close and dismantle the installation at Fordow.

Close the installation at Fordow?

Close and dismantle it. I would expect the P5 + 1—this is now the third meeting in Moscow. There was a meeting in Baghdad and Istanbul before this. By the third meeting in a negotiation, you know whether the other party intends to reach an agreement or, alternatively, whether he is trying to play for time to avoid a decision. It seems to me that the Iranians keep defying and deceiving the whole world. But it's up to the participants in the negotiations to reach this conclusion. We cannot afford to spend another three rounds of this nature just to allow the Iranians to keep maneuvering.

How much more time can you allow?

I don't want to pretend to set timelines for the world. But we have said loud and clear that it cannot be a matter of weeks but it [also] cannot be a matter of years.

Do you know when the Iranian nuclear program will have gone too far to be able to do anything about it?

Everyone knows that the Iranians are trying to reach nuclear military capability. We all know that, until now, [Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei did not order the actual building of weapons or explosive devices. Because they think that if they try to break out toward nuclear military capability, probably America or Israel or someone else will contemplate what to do about stopping it. They are trying to reach a certain kind of physical immunity against surgical attacks by burying [facilities] deep into the ground, spreading the sites over different parts of the country, producing more and more centrifuges, and accumulating more low-enriched uranium. So they are trying to reach a certain redundancy, or what I call the "zone of immunity."*

What do you mean by zone of immunity?

It means they reach a situation where, through redundancies, neither Israel and probably not even America can do anything surgically to block it. Once Khamenei reaches this kind of situation, he can be practically assured that he [has] crossed the point of no return and will end up more like North Korea or Pakistan, rather than like Iraq or Syria.

Are you worried that a third nuclear site may be discovered?

If you wait long enough, probably you will find a third or fourth or fifth site. I don't see any imminent sign of it. But they probably don't need it.

I saw one report speculating that Iran can produce highly enriched uranium at Fordow.

The IAEA [International Atomic Energy Agency] reported that they found certain materials enriched to 27 percent [at Fordow]. There are more actions taken by the Iranians to move toward nuclear military capability than we probably know about. We are not on the inside. They are very deliberate and determined to defy the whole world the way that Pakistan and North Korea did. We have to be open-eyed. We're living in a tough neighborhood.

Can Israel launch a military strike against Iran, and can it succeed?

You can't expect me to answer directly. We [the United States and Israel] are using the same rhetoric when we say that we are all determined to prevent Iran from turning into a nuclear military power, and we both say that all options are on the table. We mean it and we recommend to them to mean it.

And you feel the U.S. means it?

At least on a technical level, there are a lot of preparations. But it's not a secret that America prefers that it will be solved through diplomacy. We all hope that [diplomacy] will be successful, but time is not unlimited in this regard. Iran is not just a challenge for Israel—it remains a major challenge for whoever is willing to look reality in the eyes. Iran is a radical Muslim theocracy that is trying to reach nuclear military power. It also tries to hegemonize the whole [Persian] Gulf. Talk to the leaders of the Gulf. They are terrified by the possibility that Iran will turn nuclear. A nuclear Iran will be the end of the nonproliferation regime: Saudi Arabia will turn nuclear immediately, Turkey within several years, and probably the new Egypt will start moving to do it. Not to mention the potential of weapons-grade material leaking into the hands of terrorist groups from Iran.

Then comes the issue of terror. The Iranians are sponsoring terror among the Baluchi tribe in Afghanistan, among the insurgents in Iraq—they are everywhere. They are trying to raise their profile in Cuba, in Nicaragua, and Venezuela, of course. They have a global aspiration, and the world won't be the same place once they turn nuclear. Whoever thinks that it's complicated to deal with Iran right now, as some think tank leaders are writing: Just close your eyes and think what it will mean to deal with these very same issues once Iran turns nuclear as a result of an absence of political will. It will be much more dangerous, much more costly in terms of human lives and financial resources. And it will become nuclear if the world will not be tough enough to stop it.

Do you think it is up to Israel to stop it?

We always hope it will be solved by the free will of the ayatollahs, by the effectiveness of the sanctions, by the creativity of diplomacy or by any other miracle. When we say that we are determined to prevent them, and we should all be determined, including the American leadership, the European leadership, the Russians, the Chinese, we mean what we say and that is all I can say. We have another neighbor. ...

Syria?

Yes, Bashar al-Assad is living proof of the paralysis that sometimes takes over the world, even when there is no need for any further proof that something totally unacceptable that costs human life is happening.

You mean the world is just standing by?

Basically, [Assad] is slaughtering his own people and using every form of crime. Here you have real-time pictures of the actual crimes, the rows of buried children. Even when there is no need for any further proof, however tangible and visible the nature of the crimes, it doesn't mean the world can mobilize the will to do something about it. It's a fact of life that we should bear in mind when we look at the overall picture around us. We are living in a tough neighborhood—no mercy for the weak, no second opportunity for those who cannot defend themselves. We have to be able to defend ourselves. We are extremely thankful to this administration: It is doing more than the past to back the security of Israel.

What is the administration doing?

They are giving us support, despite economic pressure there, in keeping up the qualitative military edge of Israel. They helped us with our multilayered interception systems against missiles and rockets, starting with Iron Dome and continuing with Arrow. But we understand that we have to be able to protect ourselves against any foreseeable threat.

Going back to Syria, do you think the West should arm the opposition?

I think many steps should be taken. Russia has invested a lot of political capital and money in the [Assad] regime. They should have a certain role if we want to succeed. The whole structure of the Syrian state should not be blamed—it is a family and certain individuals [who are responsible]. I believe that if America and Russia talk[ed] together about who can use what leverage, that could be extremely effective. And of course Turkey, the most important neighbor of Syria. What can we do in order to remove this family from power without destroying Syria as a state? Not repeat the mistakes that were made in Iraq, where everything from the Baath Party to the military was dismantled. There's no need to do that [and increase] the chances that they will end up with a chaotic civil war, where the bad guys will be more prominent. It's time for the world to dictate to Mr. Assad to move out of power or else. But the "or else" can be convincing only if America and Russia will join hands.

But Russia is still sending weapons to Syria.

Yes, but they should be convinced in an honest, frank discussion. They could have a major role in helping to solve the Syrian issue.

You're not worried about the Muslim Brotherhood or others who could come to power?

I feel the longer the world is paralyzed and lets this massacre keep going by the Assad family, the more chaotic the situation will end up being.

U.S. officials are very concerned about Syria's huge pile of chemical weapons and what to do to secure them if the Assad regime goes and the chemical weapons are let loose.

We [are] also. [Assad] now is supported by Hezbollah and Iran. They are the only ones who are actually supporting him physically: sending materials, sending people, providing ideas based on their experience in Lebanon about how to brutalize your own people. When Assad falls, there is a certain risk that Hezbollah will try to grab some weapons systems, some anti-aircraft systems or some long-range missiles from the falling Syrian regime. Some people even raise the risk that they will try to grab some chemical materials. We still prefer to see [Assad] fall, even with all those risks. We are watching and following it carefully.

Do you believe that one good thing about the downfall of Assad would be that it could break the axis between Syria and Iran?

Yes, Iran and Hezbollah are the main supporters [of Syria], and it will be a blow to both the ayatollahs in Tehran and to [Hezbollah's Hasan] Nasrallah and his people in Beirut.

Do you believe that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has lost a lot of power?

The real leader is Khamenei. I heard he is going to retire next year. Basically, [Iran's leadership] is a collective—sometimes American newspapers describe [certain leaders] as either radical or moderate. Don't delude yourself that the moderate ayatollahs are not ayatollahs. All are ayatollahs.

Do you feel this U.S. administration has been supportive of Israel?

In terms of our security? Yes, this administration was really supportive of Israel.

Do you think the U.S. administration understands that you have a difficult choice to make about Iran?

Yes, I think so. The discussions between us and the White House are honest and frank, with a clear understanding of the differences between our point of view and theirs with regard to Iran. We can fully understand the fact that we look at things a different way. I believe that the State Department, Pentagon, and White House understand that when it comes to the vital security interests of Israel, only the government of Israel has to make the decisions.

I would not be surprised if in [the nuclear talks], the Iranians will come with some gambit, trying to blur the picture. They want very much to delay any kind of clear conclusion about their intentions for the next half a year so they can [wait for]
the American election and for a better time for them.

You think they want to delay until after the American election?
Yes.

Why?

Because they want to continue with the program. They are afraid that if they are exposed now, at a certain point, the P5 +1 will say there is no way to deal with them and who knows what will follow. If they gain another half a year, they will have more time.

And then a new administration might come into office.

They waited 4,000 years to have a nuclear bomb, so they can wait another four months. They want to see how the new president, be it Obama or Romney, sees it. In the meantime, they can enrich another [batch of] low-enriched uranium. They want to delay.

Are you worried about the Americans making a bad deal?

We hope for the best. We are realistic and skeptical. We are not part of the P5 + 1, and we do not pretend to run the world. But we shared honestly and clearly with our colleagues in both Europe and America our thought that the Iranians will probably try to gain time by [making] some gestures that will be misread as forthcoming. But if you look at the details, you will see that it really does not block them from moving toward a nuclear weapons program.

In the middle of this, you have a new government here. What do you think will happen to the peace process?

Yes, we have a new government here—a very big one. I believe it is a great opportunity right now.

Recently you spoke about unilateral gestures on the part of Israel.

I didn't say unilateral. I think we should use this opportunity to reactivate the peace process. If it is possible to have a breakthrough toward an agreement—it should be done. I don't want to relieve Abu Mazen [Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] or the international community from their responsibility for the deadlock we are in now. But I think there is an inherent Israeli interest in reviving the peace process with the Palestinians, and probably with the moderate parts of this region.

What do you mean by "moderate parts of the region"?

I mean both with the Palestinians and with every moderate country in the region from Morocco to the Gulf. We have an interest to find a way to talk with them about how to move [the peace process forward].

Will the talks resume?

I don't know because it takes two.

Is the prime minister interested? Are you?

I am interested, but the real news is not me. I was interested to start with. It's the entrance of [Shaul] Mofaz and Kadima [to the coalition headed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu], which is the biggest party in the Knesset. We delayed the election by a year and a quarter, and that is enough time to try to leave an imprint. Mofaz is a strong proponent of the idea of resuming the peace process with the Palestinians. It takes two to tango. We cannot impose it upon Abu Mazen. I hope that they will understand the uniqueness of this opportunity, instead of going to [seek recognition from the U.N.] General Assembly. We better start to move forward. If something complete cannot be achieved, probably [there can be] interim agreements. If nothing works, even unilateral steps might be a possibility.

What did you mean by that?

I just meant we have to think about all options. We have such a wide government that the coalition has no dissonance when we decide to move forward with the peace process. Based on this opportunity, we should try to push it. Mofaz and myself and the prime minister are committed to try and do it.

*Correction, June 20, 2012: Because of a copy-editing error, this article originally misidentified the Ayatollah Khamenei as the late Ayatollah Khomeini."

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
The religion of peas at work in Africa.

http://www.nubareports.org/
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 25, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 25, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
This Bud is not for you!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/25/iranian-pair-death-penalty-alcohol?newsfeed=true
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 27, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
the Central Committee of the Bolshevik party in 1918 had twelve members, of whom nine were of Jewish origin, and three were of Russian ancestry. the nine Jews were: Bronstein (Trotsky), Apfelbaum (Zinoviev), Lurie (Larine), Uritsky, Volodarski, Rosenfeld (Kamenev), Smidovich, Sverdlov (Yankel), and Nakhamkes (Steklov). the three Russians were: Ulyanov (Lenin), Krylenko, and Lunacharsky. and then there is the matter of the brutal execution of Romanovs (children included). and the chief assassin.....
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 28, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Closer to home, I thought Ahad's post trying to support the one thought which the Iranian vice presidentspoke of while ignoring the others and NOT REFUTING THEM OR ADDRESSING THEM AT ALL, basically means that he has accepted those other premise's such as the idea that the Jews are responsible for drug spreading around the world.



Ahad said:
"the Central Committee of the Bolshevik party in 1918 had twelve members, of whom nine were of Jewish origin, and three were of Russian ancestry. the nine Jews were: Bronstein (Trotsky), Apfelbaum (Zinoviev), Lurie (Larine), Uritsky, Volodarski, Rosenfeld (Kamenev), Smidovich, Sverdlov (Yankel), and Nakhamkes (Steklov). the three Russians were: Ulyanov (Lenin), Krylenko, and Lunacharsky. and then there is the matter of the brutal execution of Romanovs (children included). and the chief assassin....."


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
Inanity illustrated!

http://www.timesofisrael.com/known-algerian-writer-denied-cash-prize-after-visiting-israel/

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 1, 2012 - 12:19am PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 2, 2012 - 01:12pm PT

Inanity demonstrated!


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 2, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
fattest?


that uniform seems to be ...empty.
juar

Sport climber
socal
Jul 2, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Forget all those virtuous words they taught you in school about our system of government. The real words to describe American power are “plunder,” “fraud,” “criminality,” “deceit,” “murder” and “repression.”


http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/07/02-3
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 4, 2012 - 10:21am PT
Free speech still free. Cartman can say what he wants without fear of being executed by irate muslims rule US court.
link:
http://www.legal-project.org/blog/


excerpt:

"Long "South Park" Sentence a Win for Free Speech

A convert to Islam who helped promote death threats against the producers of the animated television show "South Park" after it featured a character representing the prophet Mohammad will serve 11½ years in prison, a federal judge ordered Friday.

Jesse Morton pleaded guilty in February to conspiracy and two counts related to issuing threats in connection with actions after an April 2010 episode of the comedy. He asked the court for a sentence less than half of what he received, arguing he never tried to carry out the threats and since had moderated some of his extreme views to the degree that he hopes "one day help build bridges between the West and the Muslim World."

He apologized in court, the Associated Press reports, saying he "justified atrocities by Muslims simply because they were carried out by the weak against the powerful."

Regardless of Morton's current attitude, his actions in this case and through a radical website he helped launch inspired a host of others to plot terror attacks, prosecutors said. They will haunt the victims for the rest of their lives and stand to let threats silence public discourse.

U.S. District Judge Liam O'Grady seemed to agree with the prosecution argument that the threats will live on indefinitely for those targeted, and that a strong sentence is needed to stand against such brutal assaults on free speech.

"You were rubbing elbows with some of the most dangerous revolutionaries of the past few years," O'Grady said Friday, adding "there has to be religious tolerance in the world. There has to be freedom of speech."

Co-conspirator Zachary Chesser received a 25-year sentence last year. As he did with Chesser, Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg wrote a forceful sentencing memorandum for Morton detailing the perpetual nature of the threats conveyed.

Morton, 33, was a founder of the radical website Revolution Muslim, created in 2007 for posting material "supportive of violent jihad," court papers show. That's where the "South Park" threats were published, along with excerpts on bomb-making from al-Qaida's English-language Inspire magazine. The posting included a picture of slain Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was killed after producing a short film considered offensive to Islam. Producers Matt Stone and Trey Parker faced a similar fate, the posting said, suggesting Revolution Muslim supporters "pay a visit" to them. It also included audio files of American-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki justifying the killing of anyone who defamed the prophet.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) minimized the significance of the threats when they first were issued, dismissing Revolution Muslim as "an extreme fringe group that has absolutely no credibility within the Muslim community." National spokesman Ibrahim Hooper even speculated the group was "set up only to make Muslims look bad."

But Morton's plea makes it clear that the group enjoyed a vast reach.

Revolution Muslim posts inspired others to plot and wage violence. In a statement of facts, he acknowledges interacting with at least a half-dozen other radical Islamists, including those who plotted to attack sites in the United States, Britain and Denmark.........."

click link for full story.....
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 4, 2012 - 11:37am PT
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 6, 2012 - 06:59pm PT

Who you know fresher than Hov'?
Riddle me that
The rest of y'all know where I'm lyrically at
Can't none of y'all mirror me back
Yeah hearin me rap is like hearin G. Rap in his prime
I'm,
young H.O.,
rap's Grateful Dead
Back to take over the globe, now break bread
I'm in,
Boeing jets,
Global Express
Out the country but the blueberry still connect
On the low but the yacht got a triple deck
But when you Young, what the f*#k you expect?

Yep,

yep

Grand openin, grand closin
God your man Hov' cracked the can open again
Who you gon' find doper than him
with no pen
just draw off inspiration
Soon you gon' see you can't replace him
with cheap imitations for DESE GENERATIONS

Now can I get an encore,
do you want more
Cookin raw with the Brooklyn boy
So for one last time I need y'all to roar

Now what the hell are you waitin for
After me, there shall be no more
So for one last time, nigga make some noise




 Jay Z.


/CLASH
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 6, 2012 - 09:06pm PT

30 years, same people, same idea nothing changes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 7, 2012 - 08:43am PT
You'd never see this on "Meet the Depressed"

Excitement starts in the last min or so.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jul 7, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
Fattrad,


This is for you and everyone else who loves Israel. They have carried the water for GOD for thousands of years ... and brought into the World Yeshua.





A Celebration of Israel, “The Apple of GOD’s Eye” …



I. WHO IS ISRAEL?
A. Israel: Descendents of Abraham, and his sons Isaac, and Jacob (12 tribes)
1. The Abrahamic Covenant

Gen.12:1-3 (KJV)
[1] Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This covenant can be seen in five other passages in the first book of the Torah: Genesis 12:7; 13:14-17; 15:1-21; 17:1-21 and 22:15-18.

This covenant is unconditional, meaning it did not, and does not today, depend on Abraham or his descendants (the Jews) doing anything to earn it, but it depends solely on the grace of GOD. This covenant has three aspects: the Land Promise, the Nation Promise, and the Spiritual Blessing Promise.

The Land Promise: GOD gave Abraham and His descendents the land of Israel as their inheritance forever (Genesis 12:7; 13:14-17; 15:17-21; 22:15-18)

The Nation Promise: Abraham is promised a great nation of descendants (Genesis 12:2)

The Spiritual Blesssing Promise: The Jewish people will be the channel of blessing for the World (Genesis 12:3)

This has been copied from the Book -- Promised Land: Israel Through the Eyes of Surfers, Study Guide


Movie Premiere of “Israel Inside”
Tuesday, July 10, 2012, at the La Jolla Museum of Contemporary Art, 7-9pm
The Israel Miracle:
http://www.birdpresents.com/
Israel Inside: How a Small Nation Makes a Big Difference
http://www.israelinsidethemovie.com/
Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGmrunBFdpg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.israelinsidethemovie.com/film-synopsis/


Col. Raanan Gissin & Rabbi Efrem Goldberg on Shalom Show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy_YZ0H-lMs


Promised Land: Israel through the Eyes of Surfers
http://promisedlandthemovie.com/
http://walkingonwater.com/2012/02/an-update-from-todd-morehead-director-of-promised-land/








(On a side note: via "Finding Your Roots" PBS TV program as inspiration ...
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/finding-your-roots/


I'm going forward and tracking my family lineage through DNA, through the company "23andMe."
https://www.23andme.com/partner/foa/

I know my maternal side of the family via paper records goes straight to Mayo County, Ireland. My Grandmother had a Jewish nose and darker skin. I didn't know my mother's mother very well, as a result of my parents divorcing when I was very young. I regret that completely. But I have come to learn very recently, that we may have Jewish descent on the maternal side of the family. They may have been "crypto Jews," meaning of Jewish ancestry but practicing or baptized into another faith, and not practicing (or practicing in secret) Judaism as a result of possible persecution.

Then on my paternal side of the family I have recently came to know that the Baker's, who are "Black Dutch" married heavily into the Simpson family. The two families essentially married straight across. The two families met while coming down the Mississippi River, on a river boat. The Simpson boys married up all the Baker daughters, and the one Simpson daughter married the one Baker boy. Well, "Black Dutch" are supposed to be Jews who escaped persecution, the Spanish Inquisition, and then settled in the Netherlands and Germany.

So I may have Jewish ancestry via my maternal and paternal sides of my family. My maternal side of my family we can trace to the early 1800s. The paternal side of my family we can trace to the early 1600s. My love for Israel has always come directly through my faith in The Messiah, Yeshua. Maybe it runs deeper than that. Maybe its genetic?

We shall see. )
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 9, 2012 - 11:56am PT
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/08/world/asia/afghanistan-public-execution/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 9, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
You must be slipping Jeff. You missed this one. (now you got me seeing this stuff:-)

Question: what do you call the first Muslim scientist to win a noble prize?

Answer: Heretic. and then after you kill his relatives and those with similar beliefs for heresy you erase his name from the history books for apostasy. That is, believing in a God not consistent with sunni teachings of religious beliefs.



http://news.yahoo.com/pakistan-shuns-physicist-linked-god-particle-185057298.html
"ISLAMABAD (AP) — The pioneering work of Abdus Salam, Pakistan's only Nobel laureate, helped lead to the apparent discovery of the subatomic "God particle" last week. But the late physicist is no hero at home, where his name has been stricken from school textbooks.

Praise within Pakistan for Salam, who also guided the early stages of the country's nuclear program, faded decades ago as Muslim fundamentalists gained power. He belonged to the Ahmadi sect, which has been persecuted by the government and targeted by Taliban militants who view its members as heretics.

Their plight — along with that of Pakistan's other religious minorities, such as Shiite Muslims, Christians and Hindus — has deepened in recent years as hardline interpretations of Islam have gained ground and militants have stepped up attacks against groups they oppose. Most Pakistanis are Sunni Muslims.

Salam, a child prodigy born in 1926 in what was to become Pakistan after the partition of British-controlled India, won more than a dozen international prizes and honors. In 1979, he was co-winner of the Nobel Prize for his work on the so-called Standard Model of particle physics, which theorizes how fundamental forces govern the overall dynamics of the universe. He died in 1996.

Salam and Steven Weinberg, with whom he shared the Nobel Prize, independently predicted the existence of a subatomic particle now called the Higgs boson, named after a British physicist who theorized that it endowed other particles with mass, said Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist who once worked with Salam. It is also known as the "God particle" because its existence is vitally important toward understanding the early evolution of the universe.

Physicists in Switzerland stoked worldwide excitement Wednesday when they announced they have all but proven the particle's existence. This was done using the world's largest atom smasher at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, near Geneva.

"This would be a great vindication of Salam's work and the Standard Model as a whole," said Khurshid Hasanain, chairman of the physics department at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad..........." more...

The specifics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

Hmmmm?


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 10, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
In keeping with this "Clash" idea, will we be seeing any intolerance or crazy stories (thinking sinat chinam) from you concerning or about the Ultra-orthodox Jewish community hhhhhmmmm....or perhaps an entire new thread so that we don't accidentally mix metaphor's so to speak?


LOL!


Regards:
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 10, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Iranians were recently nabbed trying to blow up Western targets in Mombasa, Kenya. 85 kilos of RDX explosives still uncovered. 15 kilos secured.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 10, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
pretty tough to take that the wrong way...












TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 11, 2012 - 12:06am PT
From Iran

(Mohabat News) — According to recently released statistics, in the past few weeks over 75 female children under 10 were forced to marry much older men. In 3929 cases, bride and groom were both under 14.

In a discussion of the issue organised by the Khabar Online news website, conservative law-maker and spokesperson for the Majles committee Mohammad Ali Isfenani said: “Before the revolution girls under 16 were not allowed to marry.

Parents determined to get around the law would often tamper with their daughter’s birth certificate. Under the previous constitution, people were legally regarded as adults when they were 18. After the revolution the age at which children were regarded as going through puberty was lowered to 9 for girls and 15 for boys.

He added: “As some people may not comply with our current Islamic legal system, we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law.”

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 12, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Dude you quoted a JOHN BOLTON article.

He may be the only person with less credibility than George Bush or Faux Newz.

You seriously need to find yourself some reasonable information sources and stop drinking the coolaid.

The right wing is quickly approaching CULT STATUS.

You are quite seriously a candidate for INTERVENTION.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 12, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
Speaking of cult status.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11985/sodomy-for-the-sake-of-islam
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 13, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
and Israel expressing concern that its window of opportunity for military action is starting to close.

Why? Have Israel's weapons started to expire?

You started this "imminent" war thread three years ago. Should be any minute now....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 13, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
Sure, "Bring 'em on".

I mean they're over the horizon and sterile right? Kinda......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 13, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
I think it sounds like sabre rattling. You know, the kind coming out of you.

Before two azzholes fight on the playground, they stand there and puff up for one another.

It's been done since the beginning of time.

Sometimes they fight, sometimes they don't.

Lots of puffing going on these days.

I'm not personally worried about Iran overwhelming the USA, Israel, France, Great Britain, Canada and Tonga with her military might.

Are you?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 13, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Not even if they have nukes.

Let em have em.. what they gonna do with it?

Commit suicide by using one?

NOT

The only problem I see that our government has with nukes is that they tend to lead to peace.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 13, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
You are presuming rationality from those that speak down a well to a child dead for 4-6 hundred years that is supposed to resurrect himself and usher in a great Apocalypse. (the 12th Imam)



philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 14, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
You started this "imminent" war thread three years ago. Should be any minute now....
LOL!

And, Israel will take care of this.
If that were the case why are you so worried about it?


And he also said Bush Jr was going to be added to Mt. Rushmore as the greatest American President ever.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
Never argue with Ma Duce

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/official-us-ship-fires-boat-off-dubai-dead-16786626#.UAS38fV-HKe
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
It's worth keeping alive just to keep Dr. Fraud on pins and needles.





































Or is it pricks and barbs?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 17, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
I don't have anything to add today. Maybe next October I will. Someone needs to take up the slack for jeff till he returns.

...any takers? Well, until the Madhi shows up, while we are waiting here's a pretty good vid on the current situation in Iran. Council on foreign relations.

http://www.cfr.org/interactives/CG_Iran/index.html?cid=nlc-public-the_world_this_week-link34-20120713
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jul 18, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Jeff's commitment and love for his homeland Israel is very much appreciated by me. I hope that it is also by other STopians.

I truly understand the vital importance of Israel and the Jewish people to the spiritual well being and the blessings from GOD to the World as a result of her.

Without the Abrahamic Covenant we would be lost spiritually and without blessings from GOD. Israel has carried the water for GOD for a very long time. Thousands of years.

We should always support Israel and we should never turn our back on "The Apple of GOD's Eye."

Jeff I hope you come back to ST. Keep ST informed about Israel and the ME.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 18, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
^^^^^ BS ^^^^^
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Update 2: Blame it on Iran: ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER SAYS SIGNS THAT IRAN BEHIND BURGAS BOMBING -RTRS

Update: According to BurgasInfo.com not one but two buses were blown up. Unclear if the second one was also carrying Israeli tourists.

According to Bulgarian press Sega.bg, and confirmed by other wire sources, a bus with 40 Israeli tourists was "blown up" at 5:30 pm local time at the local airport of the seaside town of Bourgas. Sega says that according to BTV "it is an assassination attempt." The bomb was located in the trunk of a white bus with Israel tourists from Israel who were en route to the seaside town of Sunny Beach according to an airport source. The mayor of the city, Dimitar Nikolov confirmed the news according to Sega. Furthermore, according to the airport's website, an Air Via flight from Tel Aviv landed at 4:50 pm local time. The shock wave was so large it also exploded two neighboringing buses located in the arrival area of the airport. The number of casualties is currently unknown, but at least three people are dead according to the local police, with dozens wounded. Sega adds "the flames are huge with three firetrucks on the scene and seven ambulances driving out charred people."


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jul 18, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
WHY THEY LEAVE ISLAM AND BECOME CHRISTIANS

(*Note: article has very disturbing images and videos that demonstrate the ideas of the article.)

They are leaving Islam in droves, perhaps because of the extreme violence and injustice inherant. Many are having dreams and visions of Yeshua, Jesus the Messiah, and are accepting Jesus as their personal Savior.

Things are happening in a very global way. GOD is getting the job done. Where we fail as witnesses and sharing the good news GOD excells.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op-ed/why-they-leave-islam-and-become-christians/







Jesus Christ revealing Himself to Muslims, Islamic Followers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc4A3eiUTJo




Muslims Leaving Islam in Droves
Ex-Muslim Magdi Allam's very public baptism on Easter Sunday made headlines, but he is just one among legions converting from Islam around the world.
By ANDREW WALDEN
April 3, 2008 - 12:50 am
http://pjmedia.com/blog/muslims-leaving-islam-in-droves/

“Interviewed by al-Jazeera in 2006, Ahmad al-Qataani, leader of the Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, explains the decline: . . .”

“In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Every year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed.”



6 Million Muslims convert to Christianity - Al-Jazeerah !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo

Thousands of Muslims Convert to Christianity in Iraq!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAT9KChzdtA&feature=related
They are dreaming dreams of Jesus Christ and seeing visions of Jesus Christ.




Jesus's appearance in dreams altered a Muslim's life - Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3j9EDqFBS0
Jesus's appearance in dreams altered a Muslim's life - Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=TxF3oKCQFwM&NR=1
Jesus's appearance in dreams altered a Muslim's life - Part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=GUtsZm3_754
Jesus's appearance in dreams altered a Muslim's life - Part4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93IdUBS2O90
Jesus's appearance in dreams altered a Muslim's life - Part5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=7i-3e9SW9GY


Uploaded by Muslims4Jesus on May 20, 2007
(Part3)Mohammed (Nigeria) - This Fulani herdsman in Nigeria found the deep love and lordship of Jesus Christ through a series of remarkable dreams. Jesus' appearance in those dreams altered the course of his life. Though his father tried to kill him in the wake of his conversion, he survived the various attempts on his life and eventually led his father to faith in Christ.

http://www.dreamsandvisions.com/English/mohammed.html

God told in Joel 2:28
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams,and your young men shall see visions."

This is what happening in these last days.

It has been reported that among African Muslims, "42 percent of the new believers come to Christ through visions, dreams, angelic appearances and hearing God's voice."



Muslim Jihadist Has Supernatural Experience with Jesus!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHVY7Az093Y&feature=related

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 18, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
Uhhh, every time they catch a Muslim converting to Christianity, don't they execute the new convert? It is a violation of Gods law to repudiate Islam, so once you are in, you can never leave.

Hmmm, sounds like an Eagles song.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/07/19/swedish-suicide-bomber-who-carried-out-bulgaria-attack-on-israeli-tourists-was-freed-from-gitmo-after-heavy-pressure-from-swedens-liberal-government/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jul 20, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Ask the Rabbi - July 2012
(A Christian finds he is Jewish, and now he wants to connect to his Jewish roots. What to do?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7gYRA8N-as&feature=player_embedded

Good answer Rabbi!!!

Judaism. The next step is accepting Yeshua as the promised Messiah, which he is. He fulfills all the prophecy as The Humble Servant of GOD, The Good Rabbi, The Lamb of GOD, and he will fulfill the next phase of prophecies upon his return as he said he would do, as GOD here on Earth, the conquering King of Kings, as The Messiah, and He will establish his reign, a 1000 years of peace on Earth.

Judaism ---> to accepting Yeshua as The Messiah. It's not a new religion. It's the next piece of the faithful walk with GOD in this life. The next piece of the puzzle. Early "Christians" stayed Jewish. They attended Synagogue and kept their customs and traditions, and worshiped on the Chabbot. They accepted Yeshua, Jesus Christ as promised Messiah. He was. He is. Today we call this, "Messianic Judaism."


Judeo-Christian is one faith.


There's another answer to hate, violence, and war. But sometimes evil will do just evil and then nothing else we can do but protect ourselves. Israel has a right to defend herself. We have a right to help her, and should help her out of love and spiritual conscientiousness. GOD puts a deep love for Israel in Christian's hearts. Never forget the Abrahamic Covenant.


Like Muslims, Jews are too coming to accept Yeshua as The promised Savior, The Messiah. It's happening. Maybe not in the droves as it is happening in the Islamic community, but it is happening. The Nation of Israel is prophesied to come to Yeshua, Jesus Christ, and be saved and receive him as their promised Messiah. He is. It's gonna happen.

These are exciting times we are living in.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Pate

Trad climber
Jul 20, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
klimmer, you thought you could escape me. how quaint. i decided to pop in long enough to tell you how full of sh#t you are.

buh-bye now; Book Of Pate psalm 12
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 20, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
Pate!

come back!
Pate

Trad climber
Jul 20, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
that's a horrifying thought.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jul 23, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
The Book of Pate = The Book of Hate


Pate,

My best advice is to find an exorcist. You need it. Get those demon spirits out of you.

Take care.
Pate

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
klimmer- you and your kind are the problem with this country.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 24, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Rock and roll clash update. As a bit of background, western music is generally not legal to play in Iran. Years after Freddie Mercury died for instance, the Mullahs finally allowed Queen music to be played in the country. (as Mercury was 1/2 Iranian and proud of it). I haven't confirm that this story below isn't a joke , but it's funny and interesting anyway.

from:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/07/iranian-nuclear-facilities-thu.html

"In 2010, Iran's nuclear facilities were infiltrated by Stuxnet, the centrifuge-wrecking malware allegedly cooked up by the US government. Now they seem to have been hit again by a bizarre attack forcing nuclear plant workstations to pump the song Thunderstruck by heavy metal band AC/DC through the speakers at full volume.

News of the attack comes from Mikko Hypponen, chief research officer at Finnish computer security firm F-Secure, who says he recently received a series of emails from a scientist working at the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran (AEOI):

"I am writing you to inform you that our nuclear program has once again been compromised and attacked by a new worm with exploits which have shut down our automation network at Natanz and another facility Fordo near Qom."

The Iranian scientist goes on to say that they believe the attackers used Metasploit, a common hacking tool which provides a variety of ways to penetrate supposedly secure networks. "There was also some music playing randomly on several of the workstations during the middle of the night with the volume maxed out," says the scientist. "I believe it was playing 'Thunderstruck' by AC/DC."

While the US military has used heavy metal music as a weapon in the past it seems unlikely that a Stuxnet-like stealth attack would announce its presence with a few blasting power chords, suggesting the hit is more likely the work of a thrill-seeking hacker. Hypponen says he has been unable to verify any details of the attack, but has confirmed that the emails were sent and received from within the AEOI."

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 24, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Gee, another insurgency on the rise in Iraq...what took them so long?


http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0724/Deadly-Iraq-bombings-and-a-reawakening-insurgency
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

In 2010, Iran's nuclear facilities were infiltrated by Stuxnet, the centrifuge-wrecking malware allegedly cooked up by the US government. Now they seem to have been hit again by a bizarre attack forcing nuclear plant workstations to pump the song Thunderstruck by heavy metal band AC/DC through the speakers at full volume.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/07/iranian-nuclear-facilities-thu.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
http://www.bikyamasr.com/73546/kuwait-police-arrest-detain-man-for-drinking-in-public-during-ramadan/

It was water!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 31, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/In-Karachi,-11nurses-drink-tea-laced-with-poison-during-Ramadan-25430.html


It was the Tea!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 31, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Arab spring N. Africa style

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/31/world/africa/couple-stoned-to-death-by-islamists-in-mali.html?_r=2
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 1, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 2, 2012 - 10:45am PT
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=19452


By Stuart Littlewood

Mitt Romney is listed among People magazine's 50 'most beautiful' of 2002. He was up there with Nicole Kidman, Britney Spears and Julia Roberts. But how pretty does he look in 2012?

This US presidential hopeful from AIPAC’s Republican wing came here to England and put his foot in it by questioning Britain‘s readiness to host the Olympics. We were already on the case, thank-you Mr Romney. But please remember that it’s largely America’s misbehaviour around the world that puts such a colossal strain on Olympic security and makes other nations’ teams so nervous.

His remarks drew some sharp responses, and thus began a series of “mis-steps” that characterized the presidential candidate’s misadventure into the wider world and culminated in an unforgettable “kiss my ass” invitation by one of his campaign aides. Mis-steps is a curiously polite US word that seems to be gaining currency here. It conjures up the erratic progress of a stumblebum.

No surprise that while in London he met with the Quartet’s zio-stooge Tony Blair to have his mind further poisoned and confused.

Romney then went to Israel to annoy the Palestinians by stating the bleedin’ obvious - that the Israeli economy had outpaced the Palestinians' - and suggesting that this phenomenon could be explained by the superior “culture”.

He came to a fundraiser attended by the mega-rich at the King David Hotel Jerusalem with, he said, "a sense of profound humility". After all, he was expecting a nice fat cheque for $1 million. Was he aware that this is the same King David Hotel that was blown up by a Jewish terror gang in 1946 when it served as the British administration’s headquarters, murdering 91?

That infamous attack had Menachem Begin's fingerprints all over it and was one of the deadliest bombings in the Arab-Israel conflict. Begin of course went on to become an Israeli prime minister, having all the qualifications.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz observed that Romney’s speech “sounded as if it could have been written by Netanyahu's bureau”. He said: “As you come here and you see the GDP per capita, for instance, in Israel which is about $21,000, and compare that with the GDP per capita just across the areas managed by the Palestinian Authority, which is more like $10,000 per capita, you notice such a dramatically stark difference in economic vitality.”

This brilliant analysis is apparently based on a book Romney had read called “The Wealth and Poverty of Nations” in his search for reasons why two neighbouring places have such disparate prosperity. “Culture makes all the difference. Culture makes all the difference,” he said, this being his conclusion.

A few weeks ago a World Bank report said that the Palestinian economy’s modest growth was not sustainable because it was driven by aid – it was artificial and therefore not strong enough to support statehood. Before that, an Israeli government report had said the Palestinian set-up was not economically stable enough to support a state. And why would that be? Because Israel is pulling every dirty trick imaginable to impoverish and incapacitate the Occupied Territories and keep them in subjugation.

Given their freedom like other people the Palestinians of course could stand on their own feet and would not need Western taxpayer support.

Had Romney spent as much time in Palestine as he did in Israel he could have discovered the truth first-hand. He’d have seen the bleedin’ obvious - that the reason the Palestinian economy is on it knees has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with the illegal and brutal military occupation, and the fact that donor countries like the US, Britain and the EU have been propping up and perpetuating the occupation for decades. How can the Palestinians prosper when the Israelis won't allow them to export or import or otherwise do business freely with the outside world?

As for Palestine's weakening agricultural sector what has happened to their water? It’s been stolen and the Israelis are filling their swimming pools and washing their cars with it and channeling it to their own agricultural crops on confiscated Palestinian land, while the Palestinian farmers’ supply is down to a trickle.

And are Palestinians allowed to develop their own energy resource - the Gaza offshore gas field? No. Israel is trying to steal that too.

Romney also ignores the endless checkpoints and other restrictions that block freedom of movement and commerce within the Occupied Territories. It’s bleedin’ obvious the Palestinians can't grow their economy until they shake off Israel's shackles. The dimmest American politician, surely, can figure that out.

But it suits the West’s corrupted political class to let the evil continue.

Romney scheduled a very brief meeting with the Palestinian Authority’s unelected prime minister Salam Fayyad and laced it with a second insult by not traveling to Ramallah. Did he pop over to Gaza and shoot the breeze with Haniyeh and Al-Zahar? Nah, such a reality-check would have been too much for a sheltered Republican softie.

Instead he donned the obligatory kippah for the Zionist cameras and hasbara scribes and prayed at the Western Wall. He met Netanyahu, Israel's belligerent prime minister. One of Romney's senior policy adviser promised support for a unilateral military strike by Israel, which has some 400 nuclear warheads, against Iran which has none... notwithstanding that the Israeli regime is considered by more and more people to be clinically mad.

And to underscore his ignorance he declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel. Well, Israel would certainly like Jerusalem to be its capital and for everyone in the world to acknowledge it, but few do for very good reason.

“All I can say is that this man needs a lot of education,” said Saeb Erekat, top Palestinian Authority negotiator. “He doesn’t know the region, he doesn’t know Israelis, he doesn’t know Palestinians, and to talk about the Palestinians as an inferior culture is really a racist statement,” At last, here's something Erekat says that we can agree with.

Romney’s visit to Poland on the final leg of his visit to the real world was hardly a public affairs triumph either, according to the BBC. As Mark Mardell reported, “even his press team finds it difficult to respond to the most basic inquiries about what their candidate has said”. And Romney’s press secretary spectacularly lost his rag with reporters and refused to answer questions after their visit to Warsaw’s Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. “Shove it” and “kiss my ass”, he told reporters.

Far better if glamour-boy Romney had stayed home to irritate the good people of Massachusetts. I thought we Brits were hard up for political talent. But, dear God, is this charmless individual the best presidential material our American friends can offer a world that cries out for integrity and courageous leadership?

As I was about to file this, an email from JVP (Jewish Voice for Peace) arrived with the text of an open letter to Romney, which they hope to deliver at the end of the week. It says:

“To Governor Mitt Romney,

“Your statements in Jerusalem regarding the growth of the Palestinian and Israeli economies were inaccurate and misleading. Israel's Occupation of Palestinian land makes it impossible for the Palestinian economy to succeed, not ‘cultural differences.’ Your comments were not a reflection of the values Jews, Americans, and our allies hold dear. We call on you to apologize to the Palestinian people for your willful lack of understanding of the facts on the ground and the racist assumptions behind them.”

JVP also point out that Romney managed to get his facts completely wrong in claiming the Israeli GDP is twice that of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, when it is actually about ten times greater.

 Stuart Littlewood’s book Radio Free Palestine can now be read on the internet by visiting www.radiofreepalestine.org.uk . He contributed this article to PalestineChronicle.com.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT

what a f*#king mess in Syria

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:29am PT
Iran's Ahmadinejad says no place for Israel in new Middle East
Reuters – 3 hrs ago
http://news.yahoo.com/irans-ahmadinejad-says-no-place-israel-middle-east-110501279.html


Eh . . . hem . . ., excuse me Mr. Ahmadinejad. You are talking about G_D's chosen people. You are talking about a people that are heirs to the Abrahamic Covenant. It's a perpetual unconditional covenant and it doesn't require Israel to do anything to earn or keep it. They have carried the water for thousands of years for G_D and then brought to the World the Messiah. It is a promise, and the promise of the promised land by G_D himself. G_D has his hand on Israel and always has, and always will. When you go against Israel you go against G_D. They are the Apple of his Eye. Do you really think you can take on G_D?

Question: "What is the Abrahamic Covenant?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html


And this is exactly why The USA should always support and defend Israel. Not to support her in her wrong doings, even we screw up and should be called on it. But to support her existence, and her defense, and to support the welfare of her people. G_D expects this of us. If we don't then there are consequences, and they won't be good.




Fattrad,

I know you're out there.

Turns out through genetic testing I'm part Ashkenazi Jewish on my Mother's Irish side of the family. I suspected, but now I know. The exact % is being determined. I always knew I was a wild branch grafted onto the root (the root: Israel , the Hebraic Jews of the 12 tribes) through my faith in Yeshua HaMashiakh (Jesus Christ The Messiah). We all have this promise no matter who we are or what nationality or race of people we belong. Everyone through faith in Yeshua HaMashiakh can be grafted on to the Abrahamic covenant, the root, through Jesus Christ. But now I also know that a part of me is also directly tied to the Abrahamic covenant through direct ancestry. A part of me is the natural branch that was broken off, but now grafted back onto the root through JC. That makes me smile warmly inside.




I have given these sources before but here they are again:


If you really want to know how important Israel is to the World and what exactly is the Abrahamic covenant, then I really recommend these resources . . .



Promised Land: Israel through the Eyes of Surfers
http://promisedlandthemovie.com/

Purchase both the DVD & Study guide together here:
https://store2.bandfarm.com/walkingonwater/product/?catID=18&prodID=3907



Israel Inside: How a Small Nation Makes a Big Difference
http://www.israelinsidethemovie.com/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 18, 2012 - 10:20am PT
http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-what-islamic-advertising-looks-like-in-iran-saudi-arabia-and-other-muslim-countries-2012-8?op=1
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 19, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
7 years ago on August 17, 2005 . . .

The Gaza withdrawal
http://blog.standforisrael.org/articles/the-gaza-withdrawal?s_src=SFIEN3&s_subsrc=EN31208XXEXXA



A very sad and heart wrenching documentary to watch . . .

WITHDRAWAL FROM GAZA - Documentary (Formerly 'Unsettled')
http://vimeo.com/46423843




This should never happen. It's G_D's land and he gave it to his chosen people. The World needs to keep in mind the Abrahamic Covenant. There are consequences when you curse his chosen people and you don't support and bless them.

"I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you."

That's a promise of G_D.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Today's installment brought to you by the religion of peas.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/9495451/Christian-boy-tortured-and-killed-in-Pakistan.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 26, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
Standing in for jeff as well here, thought this was particularly well written.

"Countdowns in Teheran and Jerusalem

Op-ed: The belief among the press and political establishments is that Netanyahu is an obstinate paranoid who is playing games with them.


By Daniel Greenfield

First Publish: 8/26/2012, 2:58 PM


If Israel jets show up in Iranian airspace, it will most likely happen while Obama is too busy accusing Mitt Romney of secretly storing all his money in a giant cave in the Rocky Mountains to do more than dispatch a flunky to chew out Netanyahu over the phone. The election is the perfect window for a strike on Iran’s nuclear program, because Team Obama will be too tied down on the Romney Front to do much damage to Israel.

Despite the signs being brandished at your local Anarchists for Peace rally, accusing the United States of being a puppet of the Zionist regime, the United States and Israel have different interests. Israel is interested in not getting bombed and the United States is interested in regional stability. And regional stability means keeping the Sunni Arab oil countries happy.

The United States is interested in somehow making Iran’s nuclear capabilities go away in the interests of regional stability. Particularly the regional stability of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar. But the last thing that this form of regional stability needs is Israeli planes flying over Saudi Arabia to take out that nuclear capability.

Just like during the Gulf War, regional stability demands that the United States protect Saudi Arabia and the Gulfies, while keeping Israel out of it. Since Iran’s Revolutionary Guard isn’t camped out in Kuwait City, protecting them is a matter of posture. That posture is there as a deterrent, a warning that Iran had better not interfere with our oil suppliers or there will be hellfire missiles to pay.

The posturing is hollow because everyone knows that Obama is not about to bomb Iran on behalf of Saudi Arabia and its colony in Bahrain. He is as likely to do it for Israel as he is to move to South Carolina and join the NRA. But he isn’t alone in that regard. Despite the fevered fantasies of everyone from Noam Chomsky to Ron Paul, no American president would ever bomb Iran for Israel. If a third Gulf War is fought, it will be fought for Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, one more time.

The last time the United States fought Iran, in 1988, it was to protect Kuwaiti oil tankers. If Iran interferes with oil tankers from our friendly Gulfie terrorist states, then a future administration is likely to bomb Iran. If oil prices go high enough to potentially cost Obama the election, then he might pry away his foreign policy people from drawing up maps of Syrian targets and actually hit some Iranian naval installations.

None of this has anything to do with Iran’s nuclear program… and that’s the point. George W. Bush did appear to think that Iranian nuclear weapons might be bad news for the United States, not just for the balance of power in the region. He was nearly unique in that regard. The diplomatic and military establishment is full of experts who view Iranian nuclear weapons purely as factors in the balance of power and utterly refuse to look at them from any other angle. To them, Israel isn’t really concerned about a nuclear attack, it’s only playing a regional power game along with everyone else.

For Israel, violence is not a posture or a theory. It has few trading connections and no alliances in the region. Its foreign policy has always been about dissipating physical threats to its people, whether through diplomatic or military means. It does not follow this line because it is a saintly state, but because it is a state always on the edge. It has too little territory and too many enemies around it to follow any other path.

Surrounded by countries for whom destroying it is a matter of national pride and religious fervor, its only real deterrent is military. Winning several wars won it enough breathing room to try diplomatic solutions. And now the first and last of those diplomatic solutions has failed. It can still count on the military as a deterrent, but there is no deterrent against a nuclear attack carried out by terrorists under plausible deniability. The only remaining deterrent after a nuclear attack is killing as many of those responsible as possible before succumbing to radiation poisoning.

To the United States, Iranian nukes and an Israeli attack on them are equally unacceptable because they both disturb regional stability. The opponents of an attack insist on calling it a “War”, not that a war is even structurally possible unless Iran decides to march an army through Iraq and Syria to get to Israel. They spread hysterical bulletins warning that an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear program could spark “another” recession.

Their message is that the cost of attacking Iran is more than the cost of allowing it to go nuclear. That may be true for the United States, which did not suffer too much from accepting that the Bolsheviks had taken over Russia, that Mao had taken over China and other once unacceptable phenomena that forced it the up its defense spending, but did not do any lasting damage. A nuclear weapon in the hands of people who believe that the world needs to be cleansed by fire for the arrival of the Mahdi and have dozens of terrorist front groups at their disposal may be a different story. Or it may not.

Washington D.C. did not get overrun by Communist forces. Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Tibet and a few hundred million other people who did not have oceans to protect them from the reasonable commissars in Moscow and Beijing, did. And that is why Israel’s interests fundamentally diverge from those of the United States. Israel is not playing a grand game from across the ocean; it is trying to survive in a region that is as hostile to it, as Asia and Eastern Europe became to non-Communist countries.

That is why, no matter what speeches politicians deliver, the actual interests of the United States and Israel are only loosely aligned. The United States is trying to protect the tattered fabric of regional stability from Iran and Israel. Israel is trying to protect itself from Iran. The United States needs Israel to promote regional stability by going back to the table and negotiating with the terrorist front groups backed by Saudi Arabia and the Gulfies. Israel needs to protect itself while Obama is too busy telling senior citizens that Paul Ryan will cook them in a frying pan to pay attention to what it’s doing.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has been cobbling together a national unity government, which in Israeli terms means that he is either running for sainthood or trying to get as much of the political system behind him as possible in a critical time. It could all be a monumental bluff, a way to panic Obama into taking action out of fear that Israel will act instead. But that would make Netanyahu a very stupid man, and while he is not all that Americans think he is, neither is he likely to be playing such a silly game.

Everyone in the region understands the nature of the countdown. Most of the Sunni Gulfies also privately welcome Israel doing something about Iran’s nuclear weapons, even as they redouble their efforts against the Jewish State to avoid allowing their Shiite enemies to benefit ideologically from a confrontation with the Zionist Entity. The rhetoric out of Iran now echoes the rhetoric out of Egypt in the 1960′s. That buildup eventually ended in a preemptive Israeli strike that destroyed Egypt’s air force.

But in Washington D.C., the countdown is not a real thing. The received wisdom among the press and the political and diplomatic establishments is that Netanyahu is an obstinate paranoid man who is playing games with them. They don’t believe that Israel will do anything about Iran, because they wouldn’t do anything about Iran and they assume that Netanyahu is just like them, only more deceptive because he pretends that he will do something about Iran.

The problem is that Israel really isn’t playing a game. Its political establishment is as bad as that of any Western country. Its politicians are no better than their American or French counterparts, but its survival actually is on the line. Iran isn’t playing a game. That’s why Israel can’t afford to play a game either.

It has become fashionable among Western elites to view aggression as either a posture or madness. They have forgotten that sometimes violence isn’t a move on an international chessboard or a prelude to a set of political steps. Sometimes it’s as simple as one side wanting to kill the other and the other side not wanting to be killed.

In the Middle East ideas that are considered aberrant insanity in the West are commonplace. Killing people is no great big thing. Most regimes do it from time to time to stay in power. Iran dispatched its Islamic militias to kill its own best and brightest in the streets of its capital. Virginity is believed to act as an instant pass to heaven for a woman, so teenage girls sentenced to death must first be forcibly married to their jailers and raped, before being hanged.

The very idea that people think this way is incomprehensible in Washington D.C. But the simple question that Israel has to answer is, if this is what the Ayatollahs do to their own daughters, what would they do to those they consider the spawn of pigs and apes?

Israel already knows the answer to that. When Muslim mobs got their hands on Israeli Jews, before or after independence, they tore them to pieces and then sold snapshots of the remains. The policy of targeting all Jews, men, women and children, is not just something that terrorists do because they have no choice, it is the ideological position of Islamist leaders like Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in Egypt or Rashid Al-Ghannushi in Tunisia, and the policy of the Arab countries fighting Israel.

The liberal West has its illusions about the enemy. Israel has little room for those illusions. It will act when Washington is too busy fighting itself to focus on restraining it. It will act because it is alone as few other countries on earth are. It will act because it cannot afford to be Poland, Czechoslovakia or Tibet– sacrificed in the great game of nations. It will act because it has no real choice but to act. It will act because for it this is not a set of talking points, a diplomatic program or a regional agenda, it is life or death. It will act, because for all its flaws, its survival is on the line.

That sense of a nation’s survival and the life of a people hinging on a single course of action has become an alien one in an insulated world. It is not a thing that Washington D.C or Brussels can take seriously. It is not even a thing that all Israelis take seriously anymore. But those who hear the clock ticking know what is coming. They know the hard choices that will come in the months ahead.

And they will make those choices as they made them before, because they will choose to survive.



Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century. He blogs at sultanknish.blogspot.com/."


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
They got an other one today.

http://news.sky.com/story/916699/iran-blames-israel-for-nuclear-scientist-death


Interesting long form article on all the intricacies of Syria

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NH25Ak03.html

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
Don't go dancin and loose your head now!


Taliban kill Afghan 'party-goers' in Helmand

Seventeen civilians have been killed by Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan's southern Helmand province, reportedly for attending a party.

The bodies of two women and 15 men were found by the side of a road in the Kajaki district.

They were either beheaded or had had their throats cut. Some showed signs of beatings or had gunshot wounds.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19388869
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
So what's your answer? More troops, more money, more time? Keep fighting the good fight?
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
troops staying in Afghanistan and in the rest of ME is a 200 year plan.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
Don't piss off the princess!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/cairo-the-plight-of-nagla-wafa-an-egyptian-mother-sentenced-500-lashes-in-saudi-arabia-following-a-business-dispute-wit.html
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:50pm PT

Time is not on the side of this uprising as well, Egypt, Libya might have won their Freedom but still is or has not gone the way all one would think or want. Time plus a few other problems, now a civil war.

Even if Al Assad loses [will come eventually] this war will still drag on for years, it would destroy the country with knock-on effects across the Middle East. The Syrians refugees may or may not ever come back. They will need time to rebuild with stability or the lack of it making it even harder. The United Nations estimated Monday that 2 million people have been affected by the fighting and more than 1 million internally displaced.

It is election time here so that makes it difficult politically for both parties. VP Ryan has no clue where Syria is or will not even talk about because all the discussion the last couple of weeks and will be about Medicare and trying to reassure he will be saving seniors and no Syrian’s. Romney already said he makes mistakes by calling Ryan “Meet your next President” wonder when he gives the order to bomb Iraq, his advisers, the Military and the Pentagon say to him: “no! It is Iran.”

Hell! Republican’s now have to define what is rape is and the subject of gold for currency.

The other problem or is Military action, lack of it or an alternative for now.

Reuters news agency reports, US President Barack Obama has signed an order authorizing US support - although not military support - for the rebels so that might help.

Intervention has already begun. Small weapons from southern Turkey, near a joint Turkish-US air-force base, from where the two countries and Arab allies are assisting the rebels. Foreign special forces are reportedly already on the ground in Syria; Logistical assistance, backed by satellite and other intelligence.

Problem for our State Dept. is the same situation when we left Afghanistan where arming the Free Syrian Army [who we still do not know but see now al-Qaeda Is taking command] are split and fighting between themselves as well who should lead. Hence the Massacres’.

"Syria is like Humpty Dumpty. Made up of four or five diverse regions glued together after World War I, the country is an accident of great power politics. Like neighboring Lebanon, it has now dissolved into its constituent parts. The Free Syrian Army isn't a unified force but rather a network of militias, each with its own regional power base and external patron," [Michael Doran in the Wall Street Journal.]

Will better [bigger] arms get in the hands and mostly likely will with members of al-Qaeda taking or stealing the good ones to exchange a few bullets or rifles to the rebels. What will happen to Assad’s collection of chemical weapons, last couple of months he has been seen moving these out of their stored facilities, I am sure Israel has that covered and then maybe not. That is their biggest worry. US have already responded if he Assad tries to even think about using them. My guess they are already in the hands of arm dealers for exchange for better times or wait a bit.

Understand Mercenaries are there as well since they have caught a few dozen already. Maybe this will create a new Foreign Legion modeled after the French for restoring or keeping the peace but will Russia and the Chinese put some of theirs to counter or balance the situation mostly not.

But for sure we need to do something now from this side before it is too late. The longer the conflict continues, the more the regional mosaic will be damaged, and the harder it will be to piece it back together.

Israel won’t strike Iran till they get their hands or a handle on the biochemical and chemicals first.

Now with Lebanon in the picture sure looks like this is the direction that they/we are heading. Doing nothing till it's to late again. Bye, bye, American pie.

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
The abrahamic religions are what's wrong in the first place.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
The "cult of the child molesting warlord",

is what's wrong with the region
Guangzhou

Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
Aug 28, 2012 - 06:57am PT
I have to agree, it's extremist for sure.

I'm an Atheist climber married to a catholic Indonesian. I have a few Catholic Indonesian Climbing partners, a couple Christian, and lots of Muslims. Daily we work and climb together with no issues.

We've had great conversation on what we believe so we can understand each other better, not one argues about the other being wrong.

One of my oldest friends, both in age and time we've known each other, is Jewish married to a Southern Baptist. . We were enjoying a cup of coffee and I asked how they handle raising their kids, he said he made sure his boys learned both religions and any other that might come up and let them decide what they believed.

I was impressed and said so, he replied with the idea that even within the same religion, or house of worship, you could ask 10 people what they believed and get 8 to 10 different answers.



lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 28, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
“It's always the Right Wingers that cause the Problems
That's why they are called extremists”

Pakistani Christians live in fear after girl's blasphemy arrest
By Fakhar Rehman and Amna Nawaz, NBC News Aug 20 2012

Pakistani police arrested a Christian girl with Down syndrome on charges of blasphemy after she allegedly burned pages inscribed with verses from the Muslim holy book, local media reported

People enraged by the accusations gathered at the police station, demanding the girl be turned over to them, so she could be burned alive.

OK! So take 300 years plus for them to be civilized.

The following is the list of the 12 persons who were executed for witchcraft in New England before 1692, when 24 other persons were executed at Salem, whose names are well known. It is possible that the list is not complete ; but I have included all of which I have any knowledge, and with such details as to names and dates as could be ascertained : — 1647, — "Woman of Windsor," Connecticut (name unknown)[later identified as Alice Young], at Hartford. 1648, — Margaret Jones, of Charlestown, at Boston. 1648,— Mary Johnson, at Hartford. 1650? — Henry Lake's wife, of Dorchester. 1650?—Mrs. Kendall, of Cambridge. 1651, — Mary Parsons, of Springfield, at Boston. 1651, — Goodwife Bassett, at Fairfield, Conn. 1653,—Goodwife Knap, at Hartford. 1656, — Ann Hibbins, at Boston. 1662, — Goodman Greensmith, at Hartford. 1662,— Goodwife Greensmith, at Hartford. 1688,— Goody Glover, at Boston."[8]

In the small Salem Village, as in the colony at large, life was governed by the precepts of the Church, which was Calvinist in the extreme[by whom?]. Music, dancing, celebration of holidays such as Christmas and Easter, were absolutely forbidden,[22] as they supposedly had roots in Paganism. The only music allowed at all was the unaccompanied singing of hymns—the folk songs of the period glorified human love and nature, and were therefore against God. Toys and especially dolls were also forbidden, and were considered a frivolous waste of time.[23] The only schooling for children was in religious doctrine and the Bible[not in citation given], and all the villagers were expected to go to the meeting house for three-hour sermons every Wednesday and Sunday. Village life revolved around the meeting house, and those celebrations permitted, such as those celebrating the harvest, were centered there.[24]

Source Wikipedia

As for the USA are we civilized as well? We just shoot rather than burn nowadays, Muslims, Gay bashing, no abortion and rape is good according to Republicans and here it is 2012. 2050 will be their same arguments. Onward Christian Soldiers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Netanyahu has only one goal - continue occupying and settling lands gained since '67 and avoid any form of settlement with the Palestinians (and do it all on our dime). Period, end of story.

They took the land fair and square and aren't giving it back no matter what unless it further isolates the Palestinians as in Gaza - they just lack the sincerity and integrity to simply say what they really believe and do and that's largely because of our annual largess. On a financial basis Israel is our 51st state and because of it we are entirely complicit in the sham that is Israel's 'participation' in the peace process.

The upshot of this relationship is lots of Americans dying in the Mideast over the years and that's not going to change anytime soon. Our involvements in the Gulf, Iraq, and Afghanistan wars are a direct consequence of Israel's intractability on the issue. President after president have been burned trying to broker peace with Israel and the Bush administration thought they could do an end run around the 'Israeli problem' by invading Iraq as the "right domino: to bring about the neocon's fantasy of a [western-style] democracy in the Mideast.

That 'strategy' was naive in the extreme and Israel has no more interest in 'peace' today then they did 50 years ago. It's all bullsh#t, smoke screens, and PC talk they think people want to hear and there isn't an honest on-the-record voice in the Netanyahu government outside of the radical far right parties.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Not only that but they have another issue they never have settled but let slide through the years but now is getting bigger.

A short excerpt more by hitting the article below.

The Rise of Settler Terrorism

The West Bank’s Other Violent Extremists

Late this past June, a group of Israeli settlers in the West Bank defaced and burned a mosque in the small West Bank village of Jabaa. Graffiti sprayed by the vandals warned of a "war" over the planned evacuation, ordered by the Israeli Supreme Court, of a handful of houses illegally built on private Palestinian land near the Israeli settlement of Beit El. The torching of the mosque was the fourth such attack in 18 months and part of a wider trend of routine violence committed by radical settlers against innocent Palestinians, Israeli security personnel, and mainstream settler leaders -- all aimed at intimidating perceived enemies of the settlement project.

This violence has not always plagued the settler community. Although many paint all Israeli settlers as extremists, conflating them with the often-justified criticism of Israeli government policy in the West Bank, the vast majority of them oppose attacks against Palestinian civilians or the Israeli state. In the past, Israeli authorities and the settler leadership often worked together to prevent such assaults and keep radicalism at bay. Yet in recent years, the settler movement has experienced a profound breakdown in discipline, with extremists now beyond the reach of either Israeli law enforcement or the discipline of settler leaders
Extremist settlers mimic the typical methods of terrorist groups across the globe.

Recently, Israeli leaders have begun to recognize the problem. Following extremist vandalism against the IDF and mainstream settler leaders over the past year, some Israeli generals and government ministers began to label radical settlers as terrorists. Now, the Israeli government should translate that bold rhetoric into decisive action. To begin with, it should officially designate the perpetrators of violence as terrorists and disrupt their activities more aggressively. Security agencies should then enforce Israeli law, prosecuting violent settlers as they would terrorists, Palestinian or Israeli. And to slow the tide of radicalism, Israeli leaders must denounce extremists and shun their representatives, placing particular pressure on religious leaders who incite violence. Meanwhile, the United States and other countries seeking to revive the peace talks must encourage Israel to take these steps before things worsen. Washington should itself consider designating violent radical settlers as terrorists and should push Israel to crack down on them. Settler extremism tarnishes Israel's name and imperils its future. Friends of Israel, the Israeli government, and even those who support the settlements in the West Bank should fight back against this dangerous phenomenon.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137825/daniel-byman-and-natan-sachs/the-rise-of-settler-terrorism?page=show

For sure you will not see this happening if Romney gets in but hopefully Netanyahu will be gone by then.


Or for better words: Israel must confront its homegrown terrorism problem.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
(Posted in absentia for Jeff, who has left the building) If it boils down to only one goal, I would suggest that survival of Jews would be the one shared by all Jews, Netanyahoooo included. Everything else revolves around that. Everyone else (Goyim) just seem to shrug their shoulders and go: "meh, they're just jews". Somehow forgetting the takeover of the embassy, and figuring that an Iranian bomb won't affect us or the rest of the world outside of Israel. It will.

ONE GOAL 2 GOALS 2 GOALS 4. 5 GOALS 6 GOALS 7 GOALS MORE. The clock is winding down, they need all the goals they can get. Interesting article follows, especially the 2nd half of it.

"Measuring every step
Posted September 7, 2012 by josephwouk


Israel Hayom | Measuring every step.

Sensing U.S. President Barack Obama’s weak-kneed approach toward them, Iran’s leaders are permitting themselves to make bold, extreme threats • Nonetheless, they are sleeping with one eye open, as they are well aware that they risk inviting a massive, devastating American assault if they dare go too far • The race for the bomb shifts into high gear.
Reuven Berko
Iran’s leaders are proceeding cautiously but determinedly in their quest for mastery of nuclear technology and perhaps weaponry as well.


American attempts to allow the ayatollah’s regime in Iran to save face and honorably retreat from their nuclear ambitions have been for nothing. In Middle Eastern culture, courtly gestures of this sort are inevitably looked upon as signs of weakness. The Americans, to whom this culture is alien, are now left with no choice. The contempt and scorn heaped upon America by Iran’s leaders during their recent appearance at the Non-Aligned Movement summit effectively made a mockery of U.S. President Barack Obama, the “champion” of an approach that favors dialogue with various extremist Islamists.

In recent years, the American defense umbrella has been increasingly perceived as hesitant and worn out by both its allies in the region and its adversaries. This is mainly due to the fallout from the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the battered American economy, and the closely contested presidential election that means, for all intents and purposes, that all major strategic decisions are on hold.

The Sunni Muslim Arab states, along with Turkey are watching with alarm as a coalition led by Shiite Iran (which, with the backing of Russia and China, is promoting a vision of a new world order), is butchering their brethren in Syria, while the U.S. and NATO stand on the sidelines, unable to intervene. Recent statements by U.S. officials attest to the fact there is now a new bipartisan consensus whereby the world’s mightiest superpower must rebuild its battered image and regain its preeminent position in the eyes of both its allies and enemies.

Iran, ever mindful of the domestic scene in the U.S., is in a race against time. If Iran succeeds in quickly building an atomic weapon before the Americans come to their senses, it will irreversibly position itself as a member of a new, violent club. Going nuclear will enable Iran to do something it has not been able to do in the past – impose an expansionist agenda and “right a wrong” by asserting dominance over the Gulf region and the Arab oil sheikdoms. It will also be able to deal a blow to Saudi Arabia, the entity which most embodies the bitter, centuries-long rivalry between Sunnis and Shiites.

The remarks made by Iranian officials before and during the NAM summit left little room for doubt. If one were to judge by their rhetoric, Iran’s self-confidence appears to be at an all-time high. How else to explain their bombastic arrogance and their boastful intention of one day evicting America from the Middle East and establishing a new world order, with Israel and the U.S. on the outside looking in? Such blunt statements would never be made if the ayatollah’s terrorist state did not perceive itself on the cusp of going online with its nuclear project.

Iran’s mischief is not limited to words. The regime has undertaken provocative maritime actions near Abu Musa, the tiny island in the eastern Persian Gulf whose sovereignty has been a point of dispute with United Arab Emirates. Iran has also exacerbated tensions with its tiny neighbor Bahrain. The most recent report commissioned by the International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed suspicions that Iran is progressing rapidly toward assembling a nuclear bomb, hence the regime feels its braggadocio is justified.

Those who are well acquainted with intelligence and concealing information know full well that there is still much we don’t know, and that the IAEA and the west have only touched the tip of the iceberg of the Iranian nuclear program. Tehran has made this possible by denying international inspectors full access to its facilities. The IAEA and Western diplomats do not have the full picture of Iran’s secret program to develop nuclear weapons.

The assumption guiding policy in Moscow and Beijing, the two governments that back Iran and its patrons (the Iraq-Syria-Hezbollah axis), holds that the state of paralysis in which the U.S. and NATO find themselves prevents them from going after their ally, the bloodthirsty regime of Bashar al-Assad.

These factors are inhibiting the U.S., which has historically tended to assume an isolationist stance and to attack only when it is physically hit (like in Pearl Harbor and the 9/11 atrocities), denying it the ability to go after Iran. This is why it is likely that Russia and China will continue to operate according to this assumption, even if Mitt Romney, the Republican nominee who has made hawkish statements regarding Iran, replaces Obama in the White House. The Russian-Chinese-Iranian perception of American weakness will only gain more traction once Iran comes into possession of a nuclear weapon. The atomic bomb will elevate Iran to the position of hegemon in the Gulf region at the expense of the Americans.

This state of affairs is compounded by the widely held view that Obama has little use or interest in Israel and the Middle East. What really matters to Obama is winning re-election, which explains why his election campaign can be summed up by the famous phrase, “It’s the economy, stupid.” Obama’s vice president, Joe Biden, seemed to confirm this sentiment when he accused Romney of being ready to drag the U.S. into a war with Syria and Iran.

In light of this situation, Israel’s decision to send up a cry for help is a good move, as it focuses world attention on the threat facing Israel in the event that Iran, whose government openly expresses its wish to liquidate the Jewish state, arms itself with nuclear weapons. The disadvantage is that it temporarily obfuscates the real, genuine threat posed by Iran’s ever-tightening nuclear noose on the Western world as well as Arab states.

The full scope of the danger has not been adequately appreciated until just recently. Western intelligence assessments indicate a shift in attitude toward Iran, one that is more closely in tune with Israeli assessments. This shift, however, is more a byproduct of Western interests, rather than the interests of the Jewish state.

Through Iranian eyes

Iranian leaders deserve a round of applause for their threats to wipe Israel off the map. By appealing to the incited masses, they have created the conditions for any Arab state that collaborates with a military strike on Iran to be perceived as one who opposes “the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem.” We witnessed a similar spectacle in 1991, when Saddam Hussein launched Scud missiles at Israel and Israel was forced to turn the other cheek for fear that any retaliation would lead to a collapse of the Western-Arab coalition against Iraq.

If I were an Iranian intelligence officer, I would take note of the fact that since its existence, Israel has assumed a purely defensive stance, preferring to avoid friction and conflict with its neighbors, including Iran. As such, I would assume that Israel would not hasten to attack Iran unless it felt it had to undertake a strictly defensive action that it viewed as essential. This assumption stems from a number of factors, including Israel’s size, its relative lack of resources, and its ability to inflict damage on an actor that threatens its defenses.

This line of thinking, which holds that the probability of an Israeli attack is low, should also take into account the many adversaries who are eagerly hoping that Israel’s position becomes weaker. Nonetheless, I would not ignore Israel’s purported capability to inflict apocalyptic damage in any second strike against any one of its enemies should the need arise.

I would still, however, take caution over the IAEA’s recent report, which expresses the Western belief that Iran is in the advanced stages of developing a nuclear weapon, and that therefore there is no alternative but to attack. Any military operation would not be carried out for Israel’s sake, but rather for America, which is eager to recover its waning prestige as a regional power, and to reduce threats to its interests and those of its allies, irrespective of the aforementioned reservations.

A preemptive American strike, which would be perceived as being carried out at the behest of, and in cooperation with, Israel, will probably prove beneficial to Obama ahead of the upcoming elections. But it would damage the element of surprise and complicate his vital task of building a coalition with Arab states and Turkey.

Since Israeli involvement would spoil the element of surprise, make it more difficult to build this coalition, and make it harder to gain public sympathy for an attack, even among the target audience (Iran’s internal oppositionists), it is reasonable to assume that Obama would have to take Israel out of the game despite the temporary damage it would do to his political standing among U.S. Jews. But in any case, this would only be short-lived if the attack goes ahead before the elections.

If I were an Iranian intelligence officer, my assessment would take into account that any possible attack would be waged from the air so as not to put American forces at significant risk. Hence the chances that the attack would succeed are relatively higher than the damage that one can expect to be inflicted on American interests and those of their allies in the region, and higher than the damage that can be expected if they wait for Iran to come into possession of a nuclear bomb before attacking.

I would note that a preemptive strike on Iran would elevate Obama, the man who took out Osama bin Laden, into the pantheon of great American leaders, right alongside those that led the nation to victory in World War II. If he loses the election, Obama will miss a historic opportunity to do so.

If I were an Iranian intelligence officer, I would point out that Obama is currently in the midst of a dilemma. If an American attack fails to destroy the nuclear project and to generate a wave of anti-regime sentiment that would eventually bring about the ouster of the government, the president will be blamed for undertaking a populist ploy that lacked wall-to-wall consensus, a pre-election gimmick. Nonetheless, I would conclude that under the present circumstances, Obama would be willing to take that risk and attack.

Telltale signs

Experience teaches us that Obama believes in deceiving the enemy before an attack. This was how his people acted in the days leading to the assassination of bin Laden. All of the “telltale signs” indicate that Obama is “evicting” Israel from the equation as part of his sleight of hand strategy. These signs include the blunt statements delivered by U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey, the downsizing of U.S. troops scheduled to participate in joint military maneuvers with Israel, and the deliberately orchestrated frictions between the Obama administration and the Israeli government.

The Iranians must anxiously prepare for the red lines that the Obama administration is set to spell out. This time, there will be no more play on words or “dialogue.” Rather, it will be an ironclad commitment to take action. As such, Iran should view with suspicion the recent criticism by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of Turkey, an ally and fellow member of NATO. Instead, Iran should be concerned by the emerging military partnership between Turkey and the U.S. as well as the scheduled visit to Ankara by the head of the CIA, David Petraeus, this coming Sunday.

Iran can no longer accept the Turkish explanation that its military preparations are the byproduct of Ankara’s frustration over its inability to establish a safe zone for Syrian refugees within Syria. Iranian officials would do well to understand that the Americans are intent on dealing with the “symptoms” in Syria by means of eliminating the virus in Iran.

We now know that the Iranians, who have yet to fully grasp the scale of the American-made destruction heading their way, continue to manufacture the bomb. Their analysis of the “telltale signs” has led them to hold an anti-aircraft exercise next month. They are indeed preparing for an American attack.

Like any rat on a sinking ship, we now have the anxiety-stricken Hezbollah secretary-general Hassan Nasrallah making noise and issuing hysterical threats at the behest of his Iranian masters. Nasrallah warned of missile barrages against civilian targets in Israel. This is another one of the “telltale signs” that Iran and its satellites know well – that the moment of truth is imminent.

In order to explain the game of diplomacy, snooker is the preferred metaphor used by bespectacled professors who teach international relations and political science. The application of force against states is similar to the way in which a snooker ball hits another ball as part of a chain reaction. This helps the player to hit the target and down the ball into the appropriate hole.

According to the snooker method, a decisive American blow in Iran would halt the nuclear program. But, no less importantly, it would deal a death blow to the murderous regime in Damascus. Such a blow would signal to the axis of evil – China and Russia – that America “means business.”

The snooker effect would also reach terrorist states like North Korea and organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, which we have noted is already showing signs of panic. Such an operation would bolster U.S. allies, solidify the quid pro quo basis of relations and defense ties between Western states and the Arab oil producers, provide a boost to Turkey and the NATO alliance, and cut Russia and China back down.

This is the way for America to return to its rightful place as the enlightened superpower and global hegemon. Obama, it’s your turn. Step up to the plate and take a swing."






‘Next 50 Days Most Fateful Since Yom Kippur War’ – Defense/Security – News – Israel National News.
Former Head of Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, Tzachi Hanegbi, hints at timetable for Iran attack.
By Gil Ronen

First Publish: 9/6/2012, 9:54 PM


50 days. 50.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 18, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j8YTcHzPr8qkQj8Be68BkdE6L1pA?docId=CNG.bbe1d6490ab6ef1279c6c7aa83c20199.261
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 24, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
AWESOME news. Can someone let Jeff know that Morsi has apologized and it's all good. Whew. Full text and link:

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/exclusive-apology-letter-from-president-morsi/

"Earlier today, we reported that Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi reportedly implied that the Jews control the US media and have distorted comments he made in the past about Zionists being “bloodsuckers” and “descendants of apes and pigs.”

In a Times of Israel exclusive, here is an official letter just received by President Morsi.

To the admirable President Peres:

Shalom/salaam from Cairo.

It has come to my attention that a video recently surfaced of me calling Jews and Zionists “bloodsuckers” and “the descendants of apes and pigs.”

I would like to clear the air immediately and make it understood — in no uncertain terms — that some of my best friends are apes and pigs. It is most regrettable that this has happened between two nations who have been operating under a peace agreement for over thirty years (especially because I thought I had changed my video’s settings to “private”.)

I have been humbled by this misunderstanding and have already learned many a lesson since taking office. For example, I have learned that while apes and pigs have no sense of humor, they command great dexterity at operating Youtube.

I do not in fact believe that this incident was a result of Zionist news bias as was insinuated, although you must admit that the Jews do hold a disproportionate control over the media, especially in Israel.

I do hope we can put this most regrettable incident behind us and move forward as allies and partners.

In conclusion, I offer my apologies for believing that Jews descended from unicorns pixies duck-billed platypus Captain Hook apes and pigs.

Respectfully yours,

President Mohammed Morsi"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:44am PT
If a fat bald white guy all of sudden starts bumping this idioitc thread, then we know Fattrad is back.

Hope springs eternal in the human breast.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 20, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
Just can't help yourself eh Dafty?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 7, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
Me and Fatty warned the world about this stuff for years.

Now, the Intl' community is but-hurt because 284 girls are now abducted by Islamists. The group is called Boko Harm, meaning Western education is forbidden.

That is why they took these school-girls. The girls are probably being raped and sold-off for sex as we speak.

They just shot-up a town in the Northeast border town of Cameroon.

What would the US do?

Just to illustrate the blindness of the stupid f*#king West too focused on Kardashians, let me share a map of Nigeria that I have tracked aand updated since 2009.

Each Yellow balloon on the map is a terrorist action (Boko Haram) and the blue balloons are LEO ops against them. Please look:

https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=217892262123461097139.00047d7300789724c91fa&msa=0&ll=8.320212,8.986816&spn=12.930925,21.643066
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 7, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
If I've been saying this for YEARS, how is this selective? Did you open the map? Do you want to see the Southern Caucasus map? In case you forgot, that is the origins of the 2 little boys in Boston who blew the legs of little girls and scoured a little boy with so much schrapnel that he died on the scene.

EDIT:
Your selective outrage is more insulting than what you think your upset about, Johnson.

What would qualify as equal outrage? Chicago?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Doesn't matter one way or the other Johnson. Fundamentalist klingons are doomed and apparently prefer to use a climbing forum to display their demise.

Good of you to resurrect this thread, it's just what a climbing forum needed. In that way you do honor fattard.


So you have nothing to say about girls being sex-slaved by Boko-Haram?

I'm not honoring Fatty, I'm just trying to tell to that we warned you about this.

It will get worse.

Boston Bombing was just a middle-section of this ongoing problem I've warned you f*#ks about. Fatty did too.

These people openly state they want to kill you. All they have to do is breach our borders.

Whether a legal Visa that wasn't checked out, or running over the SO Cal border.

You'll wake up when it touches your family or friends. But then it may be too late.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:29am PT
The Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah has already infiltrated our country in 2 different ways.

The Muslim Brotherhood that Mubarak rejected, and the current regime rejects as too Islamist for Egypt, has infiltrated our government. It started with Huma Abeddin, miss Clinton's advisor. Egypt and Libya?

What you f*#ks don't understand is that while MOrsi and Ghaddafi were SOBs, they hated thet MB because they were totalitarians. Morsi and Ghaddafi were not, they were somewhat friends our ours.

Somebody decided to destabilize the entire North Coast of Africa while Morsi and Ghaddafi said, "you don't know what you're reaping".

They were right!

And it spead to Benghazi...and then Syria.

There is so much sh#t people dont know about this stuff.

What's crazy is that it is the job of the Sec of State to realize all this, but SHE didn't.

It looks like an intentional job to create chaos. Or amateur hour.

It goes deeper....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:32am PT
I do find it more than curious that Obama seems unmoved by Africans' plight but is all wrought
about Ukrainians. He sent a few dozen Green Berets into Uganda to 'help' the locals pursue
The Lords Resistance wackos but he seems pretty inured to Darfur, Liberia, Mali, Central African Republic,
and Zaire. I am also mystified that the Black Congressional Caucus is only calling for action in
Nigeria; this has been going on for 12 years now. WTF?

And Glanton, I'm not a " paranoid whitey", my wife is from Cameroun so if you don't want to
participate in an adult manner why don't you just demonstrate your superiority and leave us
to our meaningless blatherings.

Bluey, kindly elaborate how the Muslim Bros have infiltrated our country.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:39am PT
They other part most don't realize is phaze #2;

Hezbollah (Iran Specialists) will infiltrate the United States through private flights from Tehran to Venezuela. From there they have open access to our Southern borders after taking trains or covert vehicles, or both.

This is all verifiable by FAA and US Gov't tracking of Int'l flights.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/08/is_venezuela_harboring_hezbollah/

They are here. They are waiting to do something. And the Iranian Republican National Guards are very specialized units. Similar to our Rangers. The Al Quds guys are more like the elite teams.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:48am PT
How does the FAA know who is on an international flight? And if our government knew they
were Republican Guard specops guys why would we let them in?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:00am PT
Satellite tracking of people off the flights.

Don't be naive. You can tell who is mil and who is tourists. I think the the flights get diverted through Turkey too for some reason.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:05am PT
The covert IRG units come in covertly across the border. Most stay in Venezuela.

Wouldn't be surprised if they're running coke back back too. Cash for operations that is sold to South Europe and N. Africa.

I would be surprised if our guys aren't all over this sh#t. We never hear about.

But the f*#king fact still remains, put up a fence. With sensors. And M-4's. ANd night vision, and drones.

Defend the f*#king land border. It;s too easy to access.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 8, 2014 - 01:15am PT
The Muslim Brotherhood's Air Force.
Be afraid, be very afraid.




bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:19am PT
Fighting The Good Fights


It seems that lately that we are fighting conflicts and wars in countries where we always have to choose the lesser of two enemies. Usually Muslims. It’s happened in Afghanistan, Iraq, Eqypt, Libya, and finally Syria.
We are fighting between warring factions of varying Islamism. Some are moderate, and some despise moderation. Why we think we can instill Western diplomacy here in these particular countries is senseless.
What we should be more focused on is the truly moderate, secular countries such as Algeria, Tunisia, and even Morocco.
And Nigeria.
Nigeria is what could easily be a 2nd-world country. It has vast oil/mineral reserves, plenty of resource. It is just disrupted by ethnic diversions. And the Islamists have made it hard to do the right thing. Girls and boys want to go to school because their Christian and moderate Muslim parents see the value of this, like most of the developed world.
Welcome to our world.
There are people who do not want education or advancement. Boko Haram (Western education is forbidden) will not tolerate Nigeria’s jump into the modern world. They will kill to prevent this, and they have. They have killed thousands already. For no reason other than trying to be educated.

I'm going to post this on Pat Dollard's site, PatDollard.com.

I'd be willing to listen to the retorts, or contributions to my initial points. And I will attribute the contributitions.

Those are just my intital thoughts above...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 8, 2014 - 09:46am PT
bluering posted
I'm going to post this on Pat Dollard's site, PatDallard.com.

Here is my rebuttal:

Pat Dollard Dot Com
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 8, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Oh yes Couchmaster I am the stupid one.
Did you figure that out all by your self?

Don't forget I am also the most hateful.



Stupid is as stupid does.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Dingus, I mean the US gov't of course. It's we because this would be a good use of MY tax dollars.

We choose to meddle in the wrong conflicts and cause more chaos than we were trying to quell.

In the case of Nigeria we have a pretty solemn in Googluck Johnaton is is simply overwhelmed by Islamic radicals hell-bent on killing Christians - Girls, boys, mother, fathers, doesn't matter. Just destroy Christianity.

If we (our gov't) can't get behind this, then we run the risk of being akin to German civilians and others who stood by as certain people were being slaughtered just because of their religion and ethnicity.

Couchmaster (Bill), you really can't see the yellow balloon dots on my map link?
John M

climber
May 8, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Werner has the solution….

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2384563&tn=4340


The US govt should provide free military airline passage to Nigeria for the US Militia to find and destroy Boko Haram.

The US Militia can go all commando on that fuker Boko Haram.

C'mon dudes get yer guns and hunt down that fukhead Boko Haram .......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
Dingus, I suppose you'd be against deposing Morsi, Ghaddifi, and Assad then too, right? Because they aren't in our interests, right? Same with Sudan?

The religion of Nigerians isn't important here, but the clear intent of genocide.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
So WE should sit this one out in Nigeria, because it may be too religious? Or it's not in our interests? Or both!

EDIT:
And no I am not in favor of deposing the leaders of other countries' governments. Certainly not in favor of deposing them using the sons and daughters of others.

How about Ukraine, where neo-Nazi sh#t-disturbers ousted the prez of Ukraine, should we be involved there? (I say no, Putin has it under control).

Also, you make it sound like our boys would not want to go to Nigeria. Most Marines, Army I know would be itching to go take these Boko Haram guys out, kinda like the 2 SEALs in Benghazi who refused orders to stand-down.

They want to fight bad guyz, and liberate oppressed people. That's what they do.

This particular fight is worthy IMO.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 8, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Benghazi! Benghazi!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Dingus, you try to cop-out by making everything personal, using 'my kids' over there. The fact is, that I chose to pursue electronics in Silicon Valley while my bros chose military life. We need BOTH!

I'd be very proud of my son if he joined the military in a combat manner. Takes mucho balls!

And I probably would have supported him fighting in Afghan, Iraq, and most definitely in Nigeria. Maybe not Iraq....

But Nigeria is a no-brainer to me. We, yes we, have tools in the toolkit to handle this effectively. They train and live for this stuff.

And to save these girls is why they do it. They have no qualms doing this kind of work. I refer specifically to SEALs, British SAS, and Delta.

They exist for this stuff. Watch 'Tears of the Sun' if you get a chance. The parallels to Nigeria are stunning. Almost exact.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Where did Savage come from?

You missed my point, that spec operators live for missions like Nigeria. They did not sign up to be ultra-badasses to avoid conflict.

This Nigerian thing is a situation where spec ops guys are just itching to get their hands on these rats, to free the girls.

It was the same with Benghazi. The Rangers in Tripoli were begging to go.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 8, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 8, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
Anyone who is shocked that the left would make common cause with Islamists has forgotten the Black Panthers. From the left's point of view they are doing the same thing by bringing on board a group with some revolutionary energy and a willingness to overthrow the system. Associating with them gives the left some revolutionary cred and the supposed ability to turn the violence on and off.

If you think that's farfetched, what do you think happened in 2008 when a completely inept hack blew through Hillary Clinton and John McCain on a pledge to end the wars and repair our relations with the Muslim world? Why exactly do you think the Democrats chose a man with no experience except a few books about growing up in a Muslim country and Hussein as his middle name? Why was that man then awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for no discernible accomplishment?

September 11 and its aftermath is why Muslims have gone to the top of the Victim Value Index. The left may swear up and down that they are interested in Muslim civil rights, but if the Muslims were Sikhs, they would merit a place somewhere in the back.

Before Muslims began prominently blowing things up in the United States, the left paid no attention to them. Afterward they suddenly outweighed every minority group in the country because killing 3,000 people is the gold standard of revolutionary mayhem.

The Victim Value Index places the most disruptive groups at the front, the somewhat disruptive groups in the middle and the least disruptive groups at the back.

The status of groups within the Index can change with their behavior. Muslims used to be shelved in the back with Asians and Indians as semi-successful immigrant entrepreneurs. 9/11 upgraded their status. The other groups are stuck there because they are aren't rioting or blowing things up.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2014/05/are-you-biggest-victim.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
We sent a SEAL team to the back of a Destroyer to rescue 1 man held captives by a handful of Somalie pirates. They shot they pirates dead.

I think we can probably lend a hand in this situation since the Nigerian military is not cutting. We also have a drone base in Niger, in perfect range to be deployed. (I think between Mali, Somalia, and N. Africa, that's why it's there).

Don't be surprised at the news when French (already in Mali), Brit, and US troops solve this problem.

I would be very surprised if SAS and US troops (Delta/SEALs) are not already in place. The SAS is really good at this stuff, surveillance w/o detection. Better than SEALs.

I pray they are all on-scene, just waiting to go.....I'd be shocked if we do not know exactly where these rat-f*#kers are.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 8, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
What really is disturbing to me is that the abduction took place 3 weeks ago and Hollywood and the Int'l elitists just jumped on board 2-3 days ago. WTF?

This has been happening for the last 10 years in Nigeria. Sure it was only 5-50 girls/boys on a daily basis, and burnt Churches, but it was regular genocide. Ongoing.

I guess to get the attention of the world you have to threaten over 200 young girls. Kinda weak. But I guess it fits the stupid, yet actual, "war on women" narrative.

Whatever it takes is my opinion. Maybe the Koch bros. did it to manipulate attention to Islamists!



bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 9, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
it bears repeating...there is no "clash of civilizations", rather ONE civilization clashing (feebly) with the anti-civilized

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4265.htm



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 10, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
It's an interesting dynamic.

I think the problem can be summed up pretty simply: Progressives would like to believe that the war going on in the world is between Extremist Muslims and, get this, Extremist Christians. That it has nothing to do with Progressives, who are The Only Sane Men in the Room, standing back, laughing at the religious sillyheads as they war with each other.

No matter how many times Islamists vow that they hate "Progressives" more than the godly, if kaffir, Christians, and then match deed to vow, "Progressives" continue spinning themselves this childish fantasy. They'll rouse themselves to notice some awful massacre committed by the Islamist lunatics for a week, and, if really roused, will even retweet a Hashtag Uprising against it; and then the next week, they go back to "condemning both sides," and pretending to be a virtuous Switzerland.

In fact they're cowards and in their cowardice, accomplices to murderers.



By
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
May 8, 2014 7:18 p.m. ET

Since the kidnapping of 276 schoolgirls in Nigeria last month, the meaning of Boko Haram—the name used by the terrorist group that seized the girls—has become more widely known. The translation from the Hausa language is usually given in English-language media as "Western Education Is Forbidden," though "Non-Muslim Teaching Is Forbidden" might be more accurate.

But little attention has been paid to the group's formal Arabic name: Jam'at Ahl as-Sunnah lid-da'wa wal-Jihad. That roughly translates as "The Fellowship of the People of the Tradition for Preaching and Holy War." That's a lot less catchy than Boko Haram but significantly more revealing about the group and its mission. Far from being an aberration among Islamist terror groups, as some observers suggest, Boko Haram in its goals and methods is in fact all too representative.

The kidnapping of the schoolgirls throws into bold relief a central part of what the jihadists are about: the oppression of women. Boko Haram sincerely believes that girls are better off enslaved than educated. The terrorists' mission is no different from that of the Taliban assassin who shot and nearly killed 15-year-old Pakistani Malala Yousafzai—as she rode a school bus home in 2012—because she advocated girls' education. As I know from experience, nothing is more anathema to the jihadists than equal and educated women.

How to explain this phenomenon to baffled Westerners, who these days seem more eager to smear the critics of jihadism as "Islamophobes" than to stand up for women's most basic rights? Where are the Muslim college-student organizations denouncing Boko Haram? Where is the outrage during Friday prayers? These girls' lives deserve more than a Twitter TWTR +0.28% hashtag protest.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303701304579549603782621352

Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
May 10, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
barkeeper's friend
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