Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:14am PT
Cheers back atcha, Wilbeer!

One of the AGU presentations I heard yesterday seemed OK but dry at the time, a technical, statistical analysis of “Early warning signs of regime shifts in complex systems.” But I woke up this morning still thinking about it. With mathematics the author (Alan Hastings) had made a deep point. Key example: coral reefs in many places are dying, sometimes due to warming water but also because of overfishing. Parrotfish are algae grazers, they help keep algae from smothering the coral. Take away the parrotfish and algae kills more coral. The transition can happen fast, in a nonlinear way.

So, outlaw removal of parrotfish? Hastings’ analysis shows that even if you stop fishing entirely, the reef would naturally take 20 or 30 years to recover. If you only reduce the fishing by half, it could take decades more. So far, a sad but straightforward and all too familiar tale.

But then Hasting brought in another complexity of the system: politics. If you outlaw or cut back parrotfish harvesting, someone’s livelihood is harmed. Not only that -- after 5 or 10 years of reduced fishing, there will not yet be much improvement in the coral, and the political pressure to resume fishing will have this strong argument: See, we gave up the fishing, and it has done no good! Let us start fishing again!

Good chance that argument will win, time horizons for political systems unlike ecosystems are very short.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:10am PT
I am here just as Malemute has said ,to mock you Chef.

No huge need ,as you have shown,to build my self importance.

Could care less,this topic is not about me.

For you it is.


It is all about you.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Dec 13, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Heard an interesting talk connecting Mongol history with climatology yesterday, amazing what people are learning.
"Pluvials, droughts, the Mongol Empire and modern Mongolia" (Amy Hessl)
Understanding the connections between climate, ecosystems, and society during historical and modern climatic transitions requires annual resolution records with high fidelity climate signals. Many studies link the demise of complex societies with deteriorating climate conditions, but few have investigated the connection between climate, surplus energy, and the rise of empires. Inner Asia in the 13th century underwent a major political transformation requiring enormous energetic inputs that altered human history. The Mongol Empire, centered on the city of Karakorum, became the largest contiguous land empire in world history (Fig. 1 inset). Powered by domesticated grazing animals, the empire grew at the expense of sedentary agriculturalists across Asia, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. Although some scholars and conventional wisdom agree that dry conditions spurred the Mongol conquests, little paleoenvironmental data at annual resolution are available to evaluate the role of climate in the development of the Mongol Empire.

Here we present a 2600 year tree-ring reconstruction of warm-season, self-calibrating Palmer Drought Severity Index (scPDSI), a measure of water balance, derived from 107 live and dead Siberian pine (Pinus sibirica) trees growing on a Holocene lava flow in central Mongolia. Trees growing on the Khorgo lava flow today are stunted and widely spaced, occurring on microsites with little to no soil development. These trees are extremely water-stressed and their radial growth is well-correlated with both drought (scPDSI) and grassland productivity (Normalized Difference Vegetation Index (NDVI)). Our reconstruction, calibrated and validated on instrumental June-September scPDSI (1959-2009) accounts for 55.8% of the variability in the regional scPDSI when 73% of the annual rainfall occurs.

Our scPDSI reconstruction places historic and modern social change in Mongolia in the context of the range of climatic variability during the Common Era. Our record, in combination with a gridded temperature reconstruction, shows that the climate during the conquests of Chinggis Khaan’s (Ghengis Khan) 13th century Mongol Empire was warm and persistently wet. Tree-ring and meteorological data combined suggest that the early 21st century drought was the hottest drought in the last 1000 years, consistent with model projections of warming in Inner Asia. Future warming may overwhelm increases in precipitation leading to similar “heat droughts”, with potentially severe consequences for modern Mongolia.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:33pm PT

The bottom line is that you take precautions, early, based on your best understanding of the aircraft to prevent failure before it happens, and you don't wait for the failure to happen because you may not survive the failure.

which is admirable behavior, and totally understandable

This was an excellent point made by Mr. Hartouni that was totally lost on The Chief because he was still arguing about aircraft parts. If you replace the word aircraft with climate in the quote above, you have the point for studying climate change in a nut shell.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
the chief included.

You sure about that?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Dec 13, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
AGU now hosting presentations that compare the Mongol hordes to bacteria.

Huh? I missed that.

Last day at the meetings, I'm taking in a couple of cryosphere/satellite seszions.

Two writing assignments to while away the flight home tomorrow.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Looks like the UK gov'ts just aren't accepting the idea. At all...

    The Chief

Scottish Power becomes third firm to scrap UK offshore wind farm

LONDON (Reuters) - Scottish Power scrapped plans for a huge offshore wind farm on Friday due to tricky ground and wave conditions and the presence of protected sharks.



It looks to me like the UK gov't is accepting the idea wholly that it's difficult to build offshore wind farms due to the conditions on the open sea.

Is that the point you're trying to make? Odd way to put it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Doesn't The Chief like to post NOAA charts?

NOAA: Expect 'Widespread, Sustained Changes' in the Arctic




Yes The Chief, look at that hiatus! And then, it goes down!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
The North Slope of Alaska just had a rainstorm--yes, a rainstorm--during its perpetual darkness season. Yes, it was that warm!!!! As the pressure and temperature gradients wane between the equator and polar regions, the jet stream will become wavier with greater levels of amplitude as theorized by many climate physicists. This will serve to pump more warmth into the high latitudes--yet another unanticipated positive feedback. Check out the Arctic Sea Ice Blog for ongoing info.
    Karl



An interesting comment on, well, the weather.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Dec 13, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Global warming is still a myth, wrapped in a lie, and hung around our necks to enslave us.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Anytime.
All those freezing their butts off are wondering
where all that global warming heat is hiding?

Or did it just radiate out into space and didn't tell you warmists?
Embarrassing that CO2 sucks so bad as an insulator.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
What missing heat were you referring to Dave?

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
Yep ,we are enslaved all right


Unless you are a weak,frail,55 year old,wonder boy,stoned and all alone.

Thanks for the continuous Comedy.

Skating in the morning ,bc skiing the rest of the weekend.ha ha ha !

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Global warming is still a myth, wrapped in a lie, and hung around our necks to enslave us.


And you know this how?



And:

All those freezing their butts off are wondering
where all that global warming heat is hiding?


dave, it's hypocritical to use a cold snap to denounce AWG while at
the same time ignoring record high temperatures, year after year, as
an indication of a warming planet.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Science is always a scam..

There was this guy in the 1400's who used it to scam money from the queen of Spain.

It's just obvious that the world is flat. If you live in Kansas it's obvious.

Global warming? Don't need no high falooting temperature measurements and stuff.. just lick your finger and stick it in the wind.

Whoops I mistook this for the Friday night drunk thread.

On a more serious note. When it comes to deciding what societal institutions to give credence to.

I'll stick with the one that uses evidence and serious peer review of methods and conclusions.

As always the source of your information matters.

Neither of you qualify as peers when it comes to climate science. Period. You do not have the experience required to to be sources of credible opinion. I'm sorry TheChief and Rick. In fact most of the sources you "cite" are not credible either.

I like both of you a great deal as people. I would absolutely take your advice on certain topics as both of you have exceptional expertise in certain areas. But ask yourself

Would you expect good advice from a world renowned heart doctor regarding house framing? Or naval search and rescue procedures? Even if they had "read all about it" ?

Meh.. I hate this thread.. nothing to be gained except pissing off people I genuinely like and admire. Just happen to disagree on this topic which none of us are likely to have any impact on anyway. Nor is it likely at all that any minds will be changed or that even if minds were changed it would matter one bit.

I should just delete
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
QED provides theoretical predictions that are accurate to within the equivalent of the breadth of a hair in a thousand miles.

That's science!

Meteorology/climatology can't produce anywhere close to accurate predictions more than a few days in advance.

Guessing, not science.

http://www.thepiratescove.us/2013/12/13/if-all-you-see-979/

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Depends on what you call "anywhere close to accuracy".

Trying to decide exactly where a bubble in a boiling pot is going is harder than predicting it will boil when the stove is set to a certain temperature.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
My knee has a better track record.

There are fundamental problems with using multi-variable differential equations to predict anything but simple well defined problems.

If it was a really useful approach for the complex, predicting the stock market would be child's play.

It doesn't even come close to working for that either.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
I'm not going to argue with you Ed, but you are wrong on your answer. I appreciate you taking the time anyway.

Bruce, i wasn't going to say anything but your chronic mispelling of wether, which is actually spelled whether, is beginning to bother me more than your jackass psychoanalysis. Just saying....

Derek, you are misinformed and your appraisal is off base.

Chiloe, you should talk to some of the solar scientists at the convention, maybe Leif Svalgaard from Stanford.

Good evening gentlemen, ladies and all you crackpots.
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Dec 14, 2013 - 10:03am PT
hey rick sumner can i get a copy of that
picture that you took of me
changing local climates?

you know. for my portfolio.
im a professional climate hack
(logger)
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