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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
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Here in the northern Sierra it is hot and dry with a week of T-storms in the forecast. I can almost smell the smoke already...
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 30, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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Too funny Ron. NV energy used to have a future carbon credit plan-you saved them up for now with the idea of a carbon trading market in Nevada for tommorrow-don't hold your breath or exhale for that matter-of course you'll have to talk with Warren Buffet now.
Chiloe are those crocks- i don't think so, crooks would be a better term.
Jogill, welcome to the trenches of the Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming war. We get down and dirty wrestling in the mud of the supposedly melting global ice mass daily. What a crock it is.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
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Never thought you Jogill were one of us. Interesting to say the least.
Why is that Chief?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
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Chiloe are those crocks- i don't think so, crooks would be a better term.
Your belief system is reality-proof, Rick. You have an ideology so specific it bestows Certain Knowledge regarding the mass balance of Antarctica, without troubling to learn anything about it. And if 47 scientists who study that mass balance reach a different conclusion than you, they must all be liars.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 30, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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For those 47 scientists you cite, chiloe, as representing ice mass loss in Antarctica, there are 47 more (many times the same scientists both pro and con, such as Zwally) that represent the opposite. Therein lies one of the major problems in this field of the supposed science of climate change-the trough is full of disgusting wastes of our tax dollars that is being greedily devoured by the hogs of climate science. All they have to do to ensure continuing feed is insert a sentence or two, or tweak a little data, to pay the proper homage to the church of CAGW.You saw the ISEMASS presentation of Zwally so i'm sure you are aware of this.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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For those 47 scientists you cite, chiloe, as representing ice mass loss in Antarctica, there are 47 more
Can you name them?
So far you haven't been able to back up a single one of your claims on this topic, but each time one proves false you dodge sidewise and make a new accusation that's equally false, invoking the villainy of all the scientists -- and it is pretty much all of them -- who don't agree with your ideology-derived beliefs about the planet. You've morphed in just hours from
The Antarctic ice mass is increasing, there is no doubt about that
but when confronted by a recent 47-author paper saying the opposite, shifting to
the majority say it is increasing, it's just that you discount the consensus
But your "majority" and "consensus" are nowhere to be seen, and you won't even admit where you got that. Quickly shift to your contempt for their education,
a generation of enviromental scientists our universities turned out instead of the hard sciences
So I listed some of their hard-science credentials, at which point you decided to call them liars instead,
Chiloe are those crocks- i don't think so, crooks would be a better term.
but I called you on that too, now your latest is to make up the 47 more claim. There's no integrity to arguing like this, Rick. You said your goal was to make a single convert, but I don't see how it could be anyone with a brain.
Maybe one of Chief's sock puppets can help out.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
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The ICE MASS loss is from the surrounding Ice Shelves and NOT from the interior continent where depths of blue ice reach upwards of 9000' thick. There is absolutely NOTHING that states that the INTERIOR ice coverage is losing any MASS. NONE!
That's not what this sounds like;
The researchers also compared the rates at which the ice shelves are shedding ice to the speed at which the continent itself is losing mass and found that, on average, ice shelves lost mass twice as fast as the Antarctic ice sheet did during the study period.
"Ice shelf melt doesn't necessarily mean an ice shelf is decaying; it can be compensated by the ice flow from the continent," Rignot said. "But in a number of places around Antarctica, ice shelves are melting too fast, and a consequence of that is glaciers and the entire continent are changing as well."
That's at the end of the story by the way.
Mr. Gill is going to have to think really hard before he joins the Denier troupe!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
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Try this from the same article;
" A 2006 paper derived from satellite data, measures changes in the gravity of the ice mass, suggests that the total amount of ice in Antarctica has begun decreasing in the past few years.[10] Another recent study compared the ice leaving the ice sheet, by measuring the ice velocity and thickness along the coast, to the amount of snow accumulation over the continent. This found that the East Antarctic Ice Sheet was in balance but the West Antarctic Ice Sheet was losing mass. "
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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One thing is evident from all of these papers is that Antarctica is warming and so is the ocean around it. The dynamic is changing. Glaciers are flowing more rapidly and increasing snow is making up for it 'most' of the time. None of these papers are the 'tent poles' you see them as Rick and Chief. Their biggest value to you here is if others do not read them.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oh yeah, here is a presentation from Zwally (mentioned by Chiloe in his 47 scientists against ice increase) at the 2012 ISMASS workshop in Oregon.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20120013495
And Mchale, it is cooling around the south pole rather than warming-there is lots of paper documenting this.Convert while you still can gracefully.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Thanks Chief!
And Mchale, it is cooling around the south pole rather than warming-there is lots of paper documenting this.Convert while you still can gracefully.
Show the papers clown. All of the links you have posted above, one way or another, show that it is warming. You always shoot yourself in the foot Rick. You can't be satisfied with a near mass balance, you have to claim that it is cooling also!
Here's an Idea - let's all watch this video and then debate the content;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ROw_cDKwc0
They start speaking English at about 45 seconds. Murry Salby is one of the 'scientists' on Rick's side. The denialist seem to be falling all over this guy......what choice do they have! The strange thing about this version of Jackass is that Johnny Knoxville isn't in it.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Mayor Bloomberg of NYC has proposed a multibillion dollar plan to attempt to adjust to changing conditions like rising sea levels. If the scientific documentation is there that seems like a reasonable course of action. To EPA our existing coal plants out of existence while in Asia a new coal plant opens every week would have a miniscule effect on climate change while exacerbating serious economic problems in the USA. We would become more of a laughing stock internationally than we are at present. IMHO.
But as I always say, I could be wrong . . .
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Below are listed links to several papers/articles about the increasing ice mass balance of Antarctica. This science, as always is a collaborative exercise, probably involves more than the 47 scientists Chiloe cites as blowing hard in opposition of ice increase.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html
Nope, that one is not about Antarctic mass balance at all. It is about Antarctic sea ice.
http://phys.org/news4180.html
Nope, that's about the interior of the East Antarctic ice sheet only. It says right in the second sentence(!) that West Antarctica is contributing significantly to sea level.
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1844/1627.full.pdf
Fair enough, you've got 4 authors there in a 2006 paper using 1992–2003 data.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/271161
Even the author of that story is confused about sea ice and land ice.
Sometimes the the older works stand the test of time impervious of refutation by later science. I note their are numerous very current papers/articles noting the antarctic sea ice increase.
"Impervious of refutation"? This is fatuous. You've just revealed that through all your declarations you did not even grasp what "Antarctic mass balance" refers to.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Oh but John, the AGW proponents here state that like the small ballpark in the middle of a Kansas corn field, if we here in the US do as they wish us to do regarding coal plants and such, then the rest of the world will follow.
Chief, do yourself a favor and credit particular people with saying particular things. AGW proponents all lumped together does not cut it my dear man that has all the solutions.
It's good to hear you think Limbaugh is whacked!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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2008 was 5 years ago you know? Just sayin.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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I see we've switched to the antarctic... good move for rick and Ron and The Chief... they finally realized they lost the battle on the arctic...
Yes, that's exactly what happened. This current fuss about Antarctic land ice started as a "Look, a squirrel!" ploy by Rick when it was pointed out he'd made false statements about Arctic sea ice. But he's not any sharper here.
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raymond phule
climber
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At the end of the day, the Antarctic Ice Sheet is in fact growing. Your DISTORTION tactic is NOT working ED. Fail!
Lets see, should I believe the assertion from the chief, who has a bs degree, military background, zero climate science articles read, does not know the difference between SMB and TMB and with a track record of always being wrong, or should I believe the article publicated recently in science?
Difficult question.
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