Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Messages 24421 - 24440 of total 28428 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:45am PT
Chiloe, you give them a forum to air their "ideas", and give them legitimacy by responding to them and taking them seriously.

Don't debate such people. It only makes them stronger and makes you look idiotic.

The world contains thousands of such forums, I don't think we add much to the noise here. Ideologues and neurotics won't be persuaded by anything, they need to vent their anger and beliefs, but other people with less commitment who read unopposed nonsense could start to think it has the last word. I think it's worth trying to counter that impression by talking sense, even though you won't convert any believers. It ain't much but given this world it might be all we can do.

As for me looking idiotic, that would be in the eye of the beholder. I do my best to avoid actually being an idiot though.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 11:25am PT
It is a simple matter of understanding that some people are not at all interested in working toward truth, in this case climate but it could be anything. It is that simple and it is fact. For some "idea" or myth is paramount, fact and truth secondary. These particular people are the single greatest political threat to the continuence of civilization and they need to be marginalized from decision making. You can identify them by how they demonstrate process.

They are Karl Rove's " we create our own reality". They are not just odd or a little eccentric, they are subversively dangerous. We Canadians are just now getting around to this important distinction with our own government, the one many of us voted for under their fog of mythology.

I suppose that may sound "bigoted " or intollerant and yes it is. We are required, by social contract to either engage in the best recognized processes of establishing truth, or at least not to actively obstruct it. It is a battle of social values only in the sense of whether the social values are built on a foundation of empirical fact or mythology. for all the wonderfulness of mythology, empirical truth trumps it for navigating our physical world and the only good mythology is one that is informed by fact.

This all happens in our case in a democratic process of egalitarian opportunity. The idiots and as#@&%es - identified by process - have all the rights as anyone to express themselves and in fact we have a civic duty to engage them as distasteful as it may be. To do otherwise is to conceed defeat by allowing them to establish their own processes, best exemplified by Rick sumner and sketch.

No one is trying to persuade them, they are part of the demographic that are a lost cause. They are unpersuadable under terms of reason and logic. The important thing is to demonstrate who they are - what they intend, how unethically self serving and mythology bound, how arogantly certain and absent of humility - so that more morally discerning individuals can make better informed choices when listening to their arguments.

When sketch persists in a process of obscurring, deflecting, decieving he suceeds in subverting the establishment of fact, by leveraging the popular missunderstanding of "uncertainty", so winning on fact simply cannot be achieved. Judgement of fact cannot be achieved which is his goal (machavellianism). However we can recognize and establish his process and identify it as what is known as the best, or the worst. The worst can justifiably be discarded, marginalized, minimized or as a last but more fun resort, ridiculed and mocked. That is something we can judge him on - his process - and we should.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Chiloes graphs depicting the properance of recent warm records at the expense of using readjusted past climatic data aside, the world is in the grip of a slowly strengthening cooling trend..The major questions are: will the PDO, which is in negative phase and causing major atmospheric circulation changes , drown out the effects of the El Nino we are already in the early phases of and is forecast now to be moderate to weak, will delayed effects of the deep prolonged low of solar cycle 23/24 begin to manifest themselves, will the major indices of solar activity now begin their steep dive to the bottom of a prolonged trough of cycle 24/25 ( after its recent double peak) and will the much trivialized effects, particularly TSI, have to be reevaluated, and finally with global ice and cloud cover on the rise will the already slightly muted solar effects be magnified by albedo change? How cool, or how hot if you are a denialist CAGWer, will it get in the coming five years? We don't have time for your unproductive personal confrontations, we're facing a catastrophe of biblical proportions fir christ sakes-or are we?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 27, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
"denialist CAGWer"

Wow.....You should really listen to Chiloe.

"You should do your best to actually Avoid Being an "

Edit: Good post up there Chiloe ,I totally agree.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 27, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
The new NASA Terra satellite data are consistent with long-term NOAA and NASA data indicating atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds are not increasing in the manner predicted by alarmist computer models. The Terra satellite data also support data collected by NASA’s ERBS satellite showing far more longwave radiation (and thus, heat) escaped into space between 1985 and 1999 than alarmist computer models had predicted. Together, the NASA ERBS and Terra satellite data show that for 25 years and counting, carbon dioxide emissions have directly and indirectly trapped far less heat than alarmist computer models have predicted.

In short, the central premise of alarmist global warming theory is that carbon dioxide emissions should be directly and indirectly trapping a certain amount of heat in the earth’s atmosphere and preventing it from escaping into space. Real-world measurements, however, show far less heat is being trapped in the earth’s atmosphere than the alarmist computer models predict, and far more heat is escaping into space than the alarmist computer models predict.

When objective NASA satellite data, reported in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, show a “huge discrepancy” between alarmist climate models and real-world facts,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2011/07/27/new-nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-in-global-warming-alarmism/
Spitzer

climber
Jun 27, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
As for me looking idiotic, that would be in the eye of the beholder. I do my best to avoid actually being an idiot though.

You rock, Chiloe.

Keep fighting the good fight.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 27, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
You have to fight back against these provocateurs.
What else can we do?
Ignore them, it will drive them crazy. And that won't take much.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
We essentially have ignored them or at least limply scolded them for their obvious stupidity and bias, assuming that popular opinion would take note and draw the same conclusions. That was over a decade ago and now only recently is popular opinion shifting agsinst the deniers. It may be that it takes physical events like the polar ice loss, california and Oz roasting, or the oddball huricane but it is also possible that a more assertive / less passive smack down from science might have inspired the masses. They want certainty and certainty about how decidedly wrong and stupid the denier arguments were was not forthcoming. Dunning Kruggers inspire faith not just in themselves but also the fence sitters. We naturally admire and are charmed by the confident-in-their-own-council charlatans, not the wishy washy maybe types in lab coats.

When we ignore them they take the high ground for themselves. Its like Karl Rove said... "while you study us judiciously, we make history then we move on to the next conquest where you can study us again...." or something like that. As unpalatble a task as it is, Dr F is right. either we take the battle to them or we lose by default and they already have the power of righteous mythology while all we have is boring old uncertainty. The power imbalance of influence requires we draw swords and slaughter the fukers while they are still stupid. The masses like that. It makes for a better football game!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
Personally, I think perhaps the most significant thing that gore said in his movie was " It is a moral question". It certainly is but for some reason that line was not persued. Its almost like he crossed into off limits country with that so the nice accomodating libruls retreated from that line of attack to follow the bait into arguing incessantly about how certain you have to be about degrees of uncertainty.

Their obvious weakness is moral but no one wants to touch it out of some missplaced sense of sacred honorable conduct. It is fully a moral question and the righties are not surprisingly way over on the immoral side. It is their foundation, the one they build their various houses of ignorance on.

No offence Rick, I'm not talking exclusively about you.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 27, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
Aargh, matey. Drain another bottle of rum and have at it.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Really Rick.... Rum? and coke maybe? How old do you think I am -14?

Maybe at the Wassila bar and grill with a chaser of crack and a warm down in detox but around here its a finger of Single Malt.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
Ah sorry Rick. Was I hitting too close to the solar plexis? Or is "the moral question" as untouchable / scarry / sacred as intuition, the principle of rugged individualism, or every man is a castle?

Lets have a look at one famous icon of righty tighty confidence-of-ones- own-council and self righteous certainty. Funny, he dosn't seem to have an ounce of humility either. Do you admire that?

Donald Trump's Arch-Race Baiting Again With the Central Park Five
Posted: 06/24/2014 4:53 pm EDT Updated: 06/24/2014 4:59 pm EDT Print Article

Real-estate tycoon Donald Trump put his arch-race baiting prowess on glorious malicious display again this time following the announcement of the multi-million dollar wrongful conviction settlement pay-out to the Central Park Five. We'll get to Trump in a minute. First let's deal with the well-known and ironclad proven facts in the Central Park Five rape case. The five are the five young African-American and Latino youths that were charged with raping and beating Trisha Meili while jogging in New York's Central Park in 1989. They were convicted and imprisoned for more than a decade. The five were innocent. Their alleged confessions were obtained illegally, through two days of non-stop police intimidation, coercion, and lies. There was no physical evidence to connect them to the crime.

The actual rapist Matias Reyes confessed in 2002. DNA tests confirmed him as the assailant. Even more telling in the years during the incarceration of the five, Reyes continued to murder and rape women including his own mother. But that didn't end the abominable nightmare for the five innocent young men. After his confession and a judge's vacating the convictions of the Central Park Five, then New York Police commissioner Raymond Kelly did what far too many police chiefs, city officials and prosecutors do when confronted with the naked, hard and bitter truth that they screwed up royally in rushing to judgment to convict innocent men and women. He dug his heels in and refused to admit any wrongdoing on the part of police and to apologize to the men.

Now to Trump's trademark arch-race baiting. He sprinted in to lambast the pay-out to the men as a disgrace and politics at its lowest form. The bald implication is that the men are guilty and got a reward for their crime. There could and should be disgust and revulsion at Trump's race baiting but no surprise. In 1989 he shelled out $85,000 to four newspapers to splash an ad demanding the death penalty for the five. The toss of the case and the overwhelming evidence that the men were innocent meant nothing to Trump. He refused every entreaty from one of the defendants, and an online petition campaign to apologize for his trying to kill five innocent men.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/earl-ofari-hutchinson/donald-trumps-arch-race-b_b_5519937.html

We all remember that, plus Obama's birth in Kenya, and his attack on sterrlings lady. Yet he still is asked to write opinion pieces in various Newspapers. AGW deniers are like Trump, soaked in a defiant history of ignorant meanness, yet we resign ourselves to wagging our fingers and considering them as slightly eccentric but still one of the family..... then the stupid bastard runs for president and anyone wonders why thier moronic blather still retains some sort of twisted respect?

Trump still is respected after all these years. AGW deniers are still respected after all these years. Same old same old. Double down on stupid and we all just clap and admire their resilience and boldness, as if that is some sort of virtue.

Come on Rick, you got nothing in your defence?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 27, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
Fingers hah? So presumably when the count runs past the hands you run into toes of malt. Look buddy, an alchy is an alchy no matter how you slice it and nothing is worse than a drunk with a loud mouth.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
Well I accept the loud mouth part as there is much evidence for that but we all know you don't operate on evidence. If you did you might stop calling me an alcoholic and instead give your friend the chuff a call to see if perhaps he's off the wagon. You need him.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
I stand corrected. You're right the moralizing bastards are indeed outraged at their morality being questioned, especially by the submoral socialist heathen scum, foreign to boot. You're right they are a moral people.... just a peculiar sort of moral.

But really all thats a sideshow to ethics which If Rick can't talk morality ( or intuition, or....) then maybe he'll talk the ehtics of posing as a self edumacated scientist, yet showing all the contempt for science as that maverick Sarah Palin on her fifth rum and coke. Yeah I think that he'll talk about that cuz ethics is process and he's all over process like a rash.

I think its a matter of practicality. Its damn near impossible for us non science types to define the science, sort of the same for misc. moralizations, but process is simple. Find the truth = science. Everyone can agree on that! So.... that is the ethic and anyone stray from that and its a firing squad at dawn.

Agreed Rick?
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Jun 28, 2014 - 10:21am PT
http://www.nature.com/news/greenland-defied-ancient-warming-1.12265
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 28, 2014 - 10:32am PT
Who da guess the rehabilitation of American Cnservatism might start in some little town in South Carolina?

Fired Lesbian Police Chief Gets Her Job Back, Homophobic Mayor Thwarted By Town Council
Posted: 06/27/2014 7:50 pm EDT Updated: 2 hours ago Print Article


WASHINGTON -- The town council of Latta, South Carolina, reinstated Crystal Moore as police chief on Friday, ending a dramatic two-month standoff with the town's mayor after he fired Moore for reasons many believe had to do with her being a lesbian.

WPDE reporter Liz Cooper live-tweeted the council meeting and snapped a picture of Moore as she was sworn back in, to applause.


Moore had been with the Latta police department for 23 years when Mayor Earl Bullard fired her in April. Bullard, who just became mayor this year, said he fired Moore after giving her seven reprimands for questioning authority, failing to maintain order, and other reasons. Moore said she had done nothing wrong.

Shortly thereafter, an audio recording surfaced of Bullard going on a homophobic tirade, in which he said he'd prefer to leave his child with a raging alcoholic than with someone whose "lifestyle is questionable."

The conservative town of just 1,400 people was thrust into the national spotlight as hundreds of residents rallied to Moore's defense, saying that her sexual orientation had nothing to do with her ability to do her job and demanding that she get it back. They picketed outside of town hall, held prayer vigils and launched a fundraising effort to help Moore with living expenses and potential legal costs as she fought to get back to work.

"Never thought I'd have been at 4 protests for gay rights in Latta, S.C.," Wil Brown, a friend of Moore's, told The Huffington Post.


You do realize don't you Rick that exactly the same story must play out with climate politics? That is just how the cookie crumbles when you're on the wrong side of history ....which is an inevitability when you are on the wrong side of logic and reason. It is the fatal flaw in Karl Roves arogant confidence - it dosn't matter in the end how supreme your confidence is, if the environment can no longer suport the myth, the myth goes extinct. Its called evolution so adapt or die as The Chuff would say but if you are a moral man, please don't drag us along on your one way ride.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 28, 2014 - 10:55am PT
It is a moral question
Indeed it is a moral question.
Posed something like:
"When your personal behavioral choices will affect the lives of future generations how do you make those choices?"

By what criteria do you make those choices? What cost are you willing to incur to yourself? What personal and governmental responsibility do you embrace to minimize the damage to future generations?
What economic and environmental cost do you want to defer today and pass down to everyone's descendants?
Are you willing to take personal moral leadership with those choices?
Your actions have economic, moral and political effects.

Global warming and resulting climate change is the cumulative effect of 6 billion individuals making daily choices. It will affect many times that number of future humans and other species of flora and fauna.

This is precisely where the Ayn Rand laissez faire philosophy breaks down. It only concerns itself with immediate individual gain.

Unfortunately, we are all strongly motivated by cost of living. Which is why a carbon tax (governmental choice) makes sense. The long term benefit to the global community is increased when our economic self interest (ironically Ayn Rand to the rescue) is to produce fewer carbon emissions.
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Jun 28, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
you're on the wrong side of history
Exactly.

History will show that the deniers are dropping turds.
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jun 28, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
History will show that the deniers are dropping turds.

Doesn't everyone?
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