Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2015 - 09:49am PT
Without waste management infrastructure improvements, the cumulative quantity of plastic waste available to enter the ocean from land is predicted to increase by an order of magnitude by 2025.


The packaging industry is out of control. (And, perhaps I'm showing my ignorance, but isn't plastic a by-product of the fossil fuel industry--they need to do something with all the waste.)


As a simple example, I want to buy some nails. I used to be able to go to the nail bin and scoop out lbs of nails into a bag. Now, I buy sets of nails in plastic boxes. This model of over-packaging can be seen wherever you look--you buy things, and they are all packaged ever more in elaborate boxes and individual packages.

All these people in the world, we all need jobs. Those in the packaging industry have done a great job of promoting their goods, and they've grown their industry. A fantastic economic model. But what would happen to all those jobs if we were forced to relax the packaging standards that we've come to expect. What if minimalistic standards were set by law, and all goods had to be packaged using the least amount of resources as possible.

On and on, capitalism demands that companies grow, quarter over quarter, so they can supply the jobs that enable buying. DMT cries that he needs to feed his family, and so does everybody who has a steady job. We depend on our jobs, and because of that we support the economic model upon which our system is built. They supply all these jobs, and we grow. Quarter over quarter.

From what I see, one of the big questions we need to address is how do we consume less, while at the same time provide for people who are able to work and produce more and more goods, but shouldn't.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 14, 2015 - 10:06am PT
So one of the big questions is how do we consume less, while at the same time provide for people who are able to work and produce more and more goods, but shouldn't.

Go out and make some unpackaged products that people want to buy, kman, market them and sell them and make a profit and quit crying about what everyone else is doing.

Now how about that.

DMT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2015 - 10:07am PT
Nice smug retort Dingus.

Sorry, but I think you missed my point. I was replying to the fact that the amount of plastic set to enter the ocean is going to go up by an order of magnitude in 10 years.

I see you think it's up to me to fix that.


EDIT

Or maybe it's that you just don't view it as a problem ("quit crying about what everyone else is doing").
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 14, 2015 - 11:18am PT
This thread has become damn civil of late. Any one read this article in Rolling Stone?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-pentagon-climate-change-how-climate-deniers-put-national-security-at-risk-20150212

Seems like solid journalism for a lefty rag at least to this layman. Wondering especially about The Chief's take on the Navy's take etc... Comments?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 14, 2015 - 11:34am PT
http://dailycaller.com/2015/02/13/its-too-cold-to-protest-global-warming-at-yale/
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 14, 2015 - 12:53pm PT

The Gore Effect rears its ugly head, again.

Weather is not climate, unless it helps the cause.

-------------------------------------------------------


Moving on... the plastic issue is a global problem. I may be wrong, but I'd guess the US is not a major contributor to the buildup of plastic in our oceans. It's coming from countries that don't have built-in waste disposal systems.

We may be the largest consumer on the planet, but our waste does get disposed. There's plenty to criticize the US over. Plastic in the ocen is way down the list.

As far as overall plastic consumption goes, we're fat hogs. Much of the plastic packaging is about glitz. IMO, we could have laws restricting it's use, without sticking it to producers... except maybe the plastics companies. They may have to suck it up, a bit.

On a side note, I f#%king hate the hard plastic packaging used for electronic products.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 14, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
http://grist.org/living/theres-a-scary-amount-of-plastic-in-the-ocean-heres-who-put-it-there/
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Feb 14, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
Wade,
Yea, I remember that place. It was my home port for a couple years.
It was known far and wide as "Sh#t City". I don't miss it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 14, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
sounds like "Sh#t City" is going to be flushed away shortly.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 14, 2015 - 03:19pm PT
Thanks Chief, that's why I asked.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
Wade, very interesting page on who creates the garbage--what is up with that?

I may be wrong, but I'd guess the US is not a major contributor to the buildup of plastic in our oceans. It's coming from countries that don't have built-in waste disposal systems.

Nice to see the US is ahead in this sense.




And now for something completely different:

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 15, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
Credit: Jambeck et al., Science 347 (6223): 768-771 > Table 1
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 15, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
I mean, I know it was an article in Science so it is the Lord's word, but 2% mismanaged waste for the U.S. Really? I doubt that very much.

EDIT: Ok, I see the elevated ppd kgs of plastic for the U.S. I believe that! I see too how it fits into the relatively low percentage of "mismanaged waste"
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 15, 2015 - 10:29pm PT
Giga tons of fish poop directly into the oceans water daily. And you're
worrying about some plastic? Way silly rabbit.

Be informed that mid ocean floating plastic makes ideal places for fish to live. It is shady, providing protection from birds, right at the surface away from dangerous shore breakers. The more the better.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2015 - 08:21am PT
The question is, does our waste management policy include shipping our plastic waste to China so they can "recycle" it?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 16, 2015 - 08:56am PT
speaking of waste

Be informed that mid ocean floating plastic makes ideal places for fish to live. It is shady, providing protection from birds, right at the surface away from dangerous shore breakers. The more the better.

btw- US ranks in the top 4 producers of plastic.

According to the Center on Globalization Governance & Competitiveness, the United States, Germany, France and China are the top plastic producers. In addition to the U.S. and China; Brazil, Argentina and the United Kingdom are leading manufacturers of PVC, a type of plastic. Furthermore, plastics ranks third in size among U.S. manufacturing industries

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 16, 2015 - 09:27am PT
The question is, does our waste management policy include shipping our plastic waste to China so they can "recycle" it?

If by shipping you mean throwing rubbish in the water and letting the ocean currents ship it elsewhere, yes.

DMT
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 16, 2015 - 11:06am PT
Wade cannot believe you never heard of artificial reefs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_reef

Oceanic floating plastic provide reef like habitat for Pelagic fish.
The type that live neither close to the bottom nor near the shore.
The availability of lots of drifting objects can result in significant increases in the survival rates of juvenile species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagic_fish

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 16, 2015 - 11:22am PT
sorry Dave no time to feed the trolls. Curious though if you've ever seen the ocean or if you've just read about it on the internet?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 16, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
No Wade. I'm sorry for people who know so much they can't learn anything new.

Consider the miracle of untrackable little plastic FAD's scattered over
the ocean with entire ecosystems of fish orbiting under them. And no GPS beacons letting the purse seiners find them.

The world fishing industry hates untrackable plastic garbage FAD's. Tell us why since you know so much?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_aggregating_device

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