The future of the forum

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 302 of total 302 in this topic
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 27, 2005 - 06:15pm PT
the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community.

it is now clearly a place where it is ok for:
 sometimes over half the threads are political, not climbing
 photos of dead people are posted
 sexual photos are posted
 personal attacks are as common as posting info intended to help people out

so, i am going to propose a few things for cleaning up the forum:

1) for a few weeks i am going to relatively little except delete the really offensive stuff. but i am going to ask that when people see stuff that violates the forum rules THEY NOT RESPOND TO IT IN THE POSTS. Instead, send me an email. hopefully the offensive posts will get burried if nobody responds to them.

2) if that doesnt work, we will get two forums. one for climbing related stuff and one for non-climbing related stuff. if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users.


3) all along the way, I'll be using the whack amole technique that other have suggested and seems to be relative effective. so that it is not a surprise to people, read the next part carefully: I do not have time to warn people to stop breaking the forum rules. every once in a while ill give warnings, but for the most part i won't. i like to spend my time climbing, not being a forum cop.

thanks in advance for making supertopo a great resource for climbers.
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2005 - 06:19pm PT
Here are the forum rules:

How to Use the Climber's Forum
The SuperTopo Climber's forum is provided as a service to the climbing community. Any visitor to the site can freely browse the forum and route information sections of the site.

In order to reply to or post a forum message, you must first join the forum. This is a quick process that involves filling our a short membership form.

Once you have joined the forum, you can post messages yourself.

Our goal with the climbing forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations.

Please help us keep the climber's forum a friendly and informative resource. If you find posts to the forum that are objectionable, please email us to let us know. Although we can't control the content posted to the forum, we will make an effort to delete objectionable or offensive posts as we become aware of them.

Thanks!
Shack

Social climber
So. Cal.
Aug 27, 2005 - 06:29pm PT
Thanks Chris!
klaus

climber
Aug 27, 2005 - 06:32pm PT
This place is gonna be even more boring after ya'all get banned.

(hope I didn't break the forum rules by posting that)
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:06pm PT
I appreciate your position, Chris, but if you have to implement #2 there will be no reason to come to this site. The mix is what it's all about (even if it does get out of hand at times) ;There are already enough climbing-nerd sites out there, and ditto for rant sites.
I'll be good, but if it gets too boring I'll be forced back to actual campfires at Crags!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
I appreciate an effort to make things better, although if you ask me, the number of quality posters has never, ever been better. Things get out of hand for short times, and then the pendulum swings.

So I hope Chris will be able to define what acceptable to talk about in the forum, or better, just lay out the small territory that's unacceptable.

If the only acceptable content is strickly climbing related, then I believe the more experienced (sometime retired) poster here might be bored with it and things would get really, really small.

Perhaps that wouldn't be all bad for "Supertopo" as a business. The forum would be a seldom used backwater like many other climbing forums, but it wouldn't be a community, dystfuntional like most communities, that it is. For me, that would be a shame.

My opinion, rather than strictly regulate content, split the forum and let a thousand flowers bloom. Few who know what they are doing want to be 24/7 tech support to the climbing world.

Peace

karl
up2top

Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:16pm PT
I'm betting Matt won't last a week.
klaus

climber
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:26pm PT
I think he's already gone.
up2top

Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:49pm PT
Bob, are you really that silly? Constitutional law applies to the limits the government may or may not go to intrude on your rights. This is a privately owned website. You have no first ammendment rights here.

Ed
Fingerlocks

Trad climber
where the climbin's good
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:53pm PT
Having two (or more) forums would be a good idea. So instead of drastic and time consuming steps like trying to decide who to boot, you could just tell people to "take it over there.."

Sometimes I log on just to read climbing threads. Other times I'll amuse myself by looking at threads that are junk. Kind of like eating fast food, but it doesn't stick to your waist.
Mick K

climber
Northern Sierra
Aug 27, 2005 - 07:57pm PT
Chris: The change is need, but I am sorry you have to be involved, I'm sure it sucks to have to police a bunch of middle schoolers. Don't waste your time moderating each forum-I agree with the just nuke it option. Everyone will get the picture before to long and moderate themselves. Lately I have tried to avoid the political threads by not even opening them up but that seems not to be possible any longer (thanks Matt)

The JUST NUKE'EM policy has my vote. Those who don't learn should then be banned.

I would quickly sacrifice the political crap to save the quality climbing related discussions on this site.


No one should have to waste climbing time to police ST-let the politics go somewhere else.

If you want to exercise your first amendment rights-go stand on the public street corner with all the other wackos.
smidogg

Trad climber
berkeley
Aug 27, 2005 - 08:00pm PT
Another optioin would be to have some way to have the community Flag a post if it is offensive. This seems to work well on craigslist and other forums I have seen. Once a post has been flagged by a critical mass, it automatically deletes. Once you have had more than one post deleted then you are banned. Sort of a self regulating system.
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Aug 27, 2005 - 08:25pm PT
LEB I think this forum goes pretty easy on the sexist remarks, because everyone posting knows a few ladies that can out climb us. They have more than proven their mettle and most of the supertopo posters are a little better educated than your average construction worker.
Shack

Social climber
So. Cal.
Aug 27, 2005 - 08:49pm PT
I don't know this LEB broad, but she seems like
a pretty smart dame. I bet she's got a nice rack.







Hey I'm kidding of course.
(I know, I have a warped sense of humor)

Very astute observations LEB..
I'm a little suprised you ever found this site,
much less stick around, since your not a climber.
But I'm glad your here.
Sewellymon

Social climber
.....in a single wide......
Aug 27, 2005 - 08:51pm PT
1/2 the forum filled with political posts does get boring, so if you feel some overwhelming compulsion to give them a seat at the kids table (so we adults don’t have to listen to them)…… go ahead

All the other stuff, yea what Karl said. Things are pretty sedate these days. The dead body post was an anomaly. I really don’t know what got your knickers in a tizzy, to be honest…
Sewellymon

Social climber
.....in a single wide......
Aug 27, 2005 - 08:54pm PT
p.s. oh, now i see. Matt screwed the pooch
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2005 - 09:50pm PT
Damn I was out carrying sprained ankles down the trail. What happened here?

Did Matt go overboard and do something “Bad”?

Did I miss something that caused this C Mac reaction, not that there is anything really to miss here :-)
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2005 - 10:20pm PT
political and non climbing threads are fine.

the issue is too many political threads and climbing threads that are hijacked and steered away by political issues.

right now, everything seems cool. a few weeks ago, there was a time when it seemed like 30% or more of the threads were political. and i was getting a lot of emails from people saying "Hey, i cam to this site for climbing info... why do i have to wade through all this other crap"

the other stuff: like posting photos of dead people, sexual stuff, and all the back and forth personal attacks - that stuff has to go. if you have a personal problem with someone, work it out over email. don't make the rest of us watch.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 27, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
Sounds like a reasonable and balanced approach to me, that still lets us get a bit of our wild side out if we're not dissing folks in the process

Peace

karl
kev

climber
CA
Aug 27, 2005 - 10:41pm PT
Chris,

I think your idea of creating 2 forums is great. Of late there have seemed to be MANY postings of a non climbing nature. Sure we all get a kick out of them. Many of us have laughed at Satan and Donney as well as the PTP and Jody threads. However why not move the non climbing bs to a non climbing section. Well that's my 2 specks of dirt.
LqdSlvr

Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
Aug 27, 2005 - 11:07pm PT
Although I rarely post here, I am a frequenty (daily) visitor. I just wanted to drop my two cents in on this issue because I do feel strongly about it.

I can do without the sex and the dead bodies (missed that actually), but I am a firm believer in an open forum. As Ed pointed out, the First Amendment does not apply here, but there are guiding principles we can learn from. So let me set out my philosophy:

I am an adult. I have absolute power over what all of you say and post. That power comes in the form of what I click on. I can easily ignore the political threads (they are fairly obvious). I occasionally find them amusing, however. Of course, I've never posted in a political thread. There's no need. The members here are all intelligent and capable of defending their respective positions. More importantly, we are a diverse community. Even if I remain silent, my views are represented.

All of this is leading up to the idea that we are, as Karl put it, a community, albeit a dysfunctional one. The openness of the forum is what gives it it's character. To curtail that openness runs counter to why I love this place so much. So . . . reasonable limits on decency are fine (I occasionally go to forums on other hobbies that I would be ashamed for friends to see some o fthe crap that's posted, so I'm all for decency). But let's not get overzealous in cleaning up the place. If we do, we lose the very character that makes this such a great place.

Jimmie
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2005 - 11:29pm PT
”Hey, I came to this site for climbing info... why do I have to wade through all this other crap"

And .....

”All of this is leading up to the idea that we are, as Karl put it, a community, albeit a dysfunctional one”

Well for the first quote, since I’ve lived in Camp 4 for so long and been around so much different bullshit for so long I’m kind of immune to bullsh#t. Seems kind of like cry babies?

The second quote. Ha ha ha dysfunctional, so true, but, when the sh-it hits the fan I’ve always noticed everyone comes together. Those that don’t are the real ones you got to worry about in my book.
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Aug 27, 2005 - 11:52pm PT
Chris,
Go for it. You have a climbing web-site, related to a great service - supertopo.com and your books.

That's what I came here for. I climb Gunks 20-35 days per year (if my wife climbed, it would be 40-60). Road trip 1-3 times per year. Climbed Yosemite once for two weeks (2004, will be there again). Yosemite rocks, your service rocks. I am over 50 (gumby - started climbing 2001). I buy your stuff. If my wife were a climber and son were in college (2 years away), I would already be retired and road-tripping.

If you make it only climbing - great stuff. That's all I care about. If you want to make it climbing - political, that's cool too. Especially, if I can bookmark "just climbing". I have posted non-climbing when I am bored. But would not even see it if you separated the two.

Climbing posts rock. Political - w7diw (keyboard shift).

Climbers on the site are good even when you disagree with them. Eliminate the political threads - (or separate them - your choice of course). I'll still be here and so will the serious climbers - disagreeing, just as they have since Harding. :)_
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:23am PT
Its about time, however, climbers are not politicians, and I do not know any climber holding a job in Pentagon or UN, they never talk about sex or activities in this manner, They never drink and drive, only some times they smoke and climb safely, they try to respect each other and never fight over who did the first accent on some wall, they dress well and wear the top clothing, they are friendly and share their climbing stuff among each other, and Germans forced them to drive VW bus back then.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:31am PT
I don't know this LEB broad, but she seems like
a pretty smart dame. I bet she's got a nice rack.


what are you talking about- she doesn't even climb...




since i have been mentioned by name in this thread (and since i am one of the few who actually uses his own name around here), i will just say that i have finished off more tiffs here than i have started, and these "rules" don't bother me at all.

as for political threads, it's a myth that i start so many of them (maybe i just start the good ones?), at worst i post the text of an editorial every so often, just to start some discussion, but the garbage threads start elsewhere (go check for yourself).

as for personal attacks, mr. fattrad, IMHO, brought a whole new level of negativity to this site in his 1st months on the scene, and it's something that is difficult to turn down after it has been turned up.

and as for jody, he's been absent for a good while, and i felt like i made my point in this thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=92474#msg92574

i feel like the guy clearly demonstrated a certain heart-felt distain for sertain segments of the world's population which made him an altogether unique individual here, and i just wanted to welcome the "whole" jody back, not just his pretty pictures, and since i am posting this, i guess i haven't been banned for it (yet).


finally, of all the things i have ever done in my life, some to be proud of and some to look back and laugh at or learn from, let me just say that the kids who cried and whined in kindergarden were usually weak and lame, and in my estimation that's every bit as true in adult life- you know who you are, what a bunch of sissies... (is that a personal attack? sorry, maybe you'd better send big brother an email!)



[baab- you're it]




WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:36am PT
But Matt

A good soul always protects the weak ........
marky

climber
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:42am PT
Policing the forum strikes me as ultra-lame. Has a gated-community feel to it -- a vibe considerably more offensive than even the most offensive post I've seen in the ST forum.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:43am PT
werner- i'm not saying i was the jerk making other kids cry, just saying the same kids always seemed to be doing the whining. as for defending the weak, i have done plenty of that and i agree w/ you entirely. as an example, whenever i round out a day of cragging by running up RA, i always stop and talk to those who are on it all day and make sure they have EXTENSIVE beta on the NDG walk-off, or 2 ropes to rap.
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:55am PT
That means your a good guy Matt .... eh.

Now here you like to stir up the pot and sometimes we knee jerk our reactions before we really think about what you're trying to accomplish.

But there is the higher ground which gets much greater results and less knee jerk. A much more difficult method to do successfully.

It takes much greater knowledge and intelligence to accomplish.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:58am PT
judy wrote:
Democratic Presidential candidate Wesley Clark..."
i am sure all of you friends could care less anout anyone in sudan, and i am equally as sure that the neocons who now claim that we are in iraq "for the sake of the iraqi people" simply re-demonstrate their utter hypocracy when it never even enters their minds that the people in darfur are far worse off than even the people of iraq were under SH.



btw- didn't you see Cmac's appeal NOT to hijack threads w/ political discussion?
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 28, 2005 - 12:59am PT
werner, maybe it just means i am not always a prick to people i don't know and will never see again, or maybe it just means i have been there..

and who says posting here is about accomplishing anything at all?
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2005 - 01:08am PT
Oh Matt, you are trying to accomplish something here for sure, you can not deny that fact or try to hide it.

A post is a desire ……..
coldclimb

climber
Wasilla, Alaska
Aug 28, 2005 - 01:34am PT
Chris: Seperation of Climbing and State would be a good thing. I vote for two forums. :) The only really downright sucky thing about these forums is the crap you have to wade through to get to the climbing.
climberweenie

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 28, 2005 - 02:44am PT
Having discussions about things other than climbing on this forum directly lead to me meeting several great climbing partners and having awesome climbing experiences in Yosemite. This would not have happened for me in a carefully moderated forum. Suggest implementing a voting system to give feedback and automatically suspend the lame-4sses, but don't separate into "climbing" and "other stuff" forums. And make it so the search features are more effective (I often come up empty searching for what I remember from threads past).

Yes I want climbing information. But I also want to connect with people who share one of my passions. If you fragment the site, I probably wouldn't come very often for a dry climbing discussion and I wouldn't waste my time with lame-ass political, spiritual, and philosophical discussions. But stick 'em together and I get suckered into wasting my time!

Part of what draws me to this online community is how it reflects a random distribution of people, drawn together by a passion for climbing. As stated in some threads a few months back, it really is like a virtual campfire sitting around camp 4 (except that actually being in Camp4 is much less interesting these days in my weekend warrior experience this year).

During a time when my wife and kids were visiting relatives in another country for several months, it filled part of the void for my social needs (since I don't drink or do drugs or do ho's I need something!). And, it was a channel for my personal growth, to practice sharing my real non-work thoughts and practice dealing with differences of opinion in a benign setting. Maybe a selfish use of a resource not intended for the purpose, but I'm guessing we all have our selfish reasons for being here.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 28, 2005 - 03:17am PT
Yes Juan, you really do. Immediately. Go fast. I'll pay if you need financial assistance.

"2) if that doesnt work, we will get two forums. one for climbing related stuff and one for non-climbing related stuff. if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users."

Two forums is a great idea! Climbing Stuff and Non-Climbing Stuff. How much more do you need?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2005 - 06:11am PT
At the risk of yet another sound trundling I say split'em up...
smokin_nolens

Social climber
California Valley, California
Aug 28, 2005 - 09:41am PT
Chris does exactly what Chris wants to do. Damn the consequences.
mellpat

Big Wall climber
Sweden
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:56am PT
SuperTopo Climber’s Forum: the best forum on the planet because of the folks writing here. Any major changes (two compartments) means a different crowd. Compartments and creativity don't match.

As to the offensive stuff - folks from the old countries can at least learn some interesting american language and "culture". LOL
ricardo

Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 28, 2005 - 02:42pm PT
i love the whack-a-mole (tm) feature of this site
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Aug 28, 2005 - 02:57pm PT
Climberweenie exhoes my sentiments here - I'm a regular on RC.com, too, but mainly because I know a lot of the other regulars in person, and because it's rewarding to me on a few levels.

But ST has a flair that has me loyal to it - the quality of the posts, the insights, the self policing, the general respect afforded. A lot less signal-to-noise ratio.

Splitting off the forums is going to take moderation work on your part, Chris. People are going to screw it up. I think your whack-a-mole/banning approach is working just fine. The forum is fun, educational, and attracts a high caliber of individuals. Kudos.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 03:42pm PT
Two forums, more of WCG's pics, especially the hot babes barely dressed, less gore, in fact, a LOT less gore, keep the climbing posts in the climbing forum, the rest in the other forum, and,

DO NOT BAN OUCH! He's the court jester.

Please don't ban the sexy pics of waterchossguy, sometimes they are the best thing in the forum.

The saga of Bear 46 as told by Ouch! should be on the front page.

It should be obvious that the women who come here can take care of themselves. We don't need no stinking Politically Korrect BS, but real gender based nastiness seems to get a beating from just about everyone anyway.

Long live the whack-a-mole theory of message board justice!
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
Hey I'm not far from an animal and I like it that way.

Leave the hot chicks wearing almost or completely nothing alone!


TR, you twerp kid, stay off this site at work if you can't handle the heat!

I guess you don't want pics if the Sistine Chapel ceiling either, there's nudes there too!

YOu want some intellectual climbing related content?

Here:

F = ma. Discuss.
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Aug 28, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
Probably a good idea to have two forums. Most climbers have a comfort zone with other climbers and can talk freely about other things besides climbing without personalizing all the guff and backtalk that are part of what's basically a Tevoed Chat Line.

RC.com seems to bring out the worst in me, so I'm better off over here by far.

JL
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 28, 2005 - 08:15pm PT
If I were Chris, I wouldn't want to start down a path that requres more forum maintenance. Just whach moles for awhile and see what happens.

The difference between climbing and politics/sex/religion gets blurred fast and things go back and forth. For example, Leeper just stopped selling anything to the military. (Besides bolt hangers and pins, he also sells electromagnetic detection gear of some sort) Climbing, Politics, both?

I have dail up myself but don't have any problem choosing what threads to view or not and close the ones that don't interest me. Part of the problem is that, despite so many folks that say they want to read about climbing, there is less posting enthusiasm for the climbing threads, particularly if they aren't spiced up with some almost off topic extra gossip or such.

Want climbing? Post climbing!

Peace

karl
pud

climber
Sportbikeville
Aug 28, 2005 - 09:21pm PT
if we can have a "name that forum" contest to allow for seperate forums, i'm all for it.

dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 09:50pm PT
A bluenose with a stick up her rear wrote:

"Dirtintheeye,

Is it necessary to abuse T*R like that because you have a difference of opinion with her? She is young but I would not call her a twerp kid. I happen to agree with you about the soft porn but it makes quite a bully of you to attack her like that. She is actually very sweet and I think she offers a youthful perspective and enthusiasm which tends to fade as one ages. It is nice that she is here and brings that perspective to the group.

I think it would be very appropriate if you would apologize to her for your temper. You could strongly disagree with her and make all of the exact same points without stomping all over her like that. Just because you have a normal sex drive does not mean you have to beat up on T*R. Many women believe that men who view porn are disgusting pigs and/or perverts. You did nothing to disabuse anyone of that notion. If you are a decent person, I really believe you owe her an apology."

Hey you psychobabbling old biddy, you can BITE ME.

To answer your condescending question, YES, it is absolutely necessary.

TR seeks to censor this site so that it conforms to her notion of what is comfortably viewable at work. That is so fecking stupid as to defy description. As for her youthful perspective, what a load of hogwash. Youthful perspective is historically and mindnumbingly the same since biblical times, and worth exactly nothing in nearly every case. God spare me from 'youthful perspective', or ignorant, self-righteous, wet-behind-the-ears frippery, as it might more aptly be put.

Then you proceed to call me a bully and an abuser???? Get over yourself!! Have you ever been outside your ivory tower? Perhaps someone will buy you a clue one day. Hello, this is the internet.

I'm so happy to see that you feel comfortable enough to discuss my sex drive, how's yours by the way? Getting any these days?

You talk about twerpolumne rainbow as if you know her in person, is that so? Maybe you two can get together and talk about how awful men are sometime.

Just one more point: All men ARE pigs and perverts, by choice! We don't need porn of any sort to help us along that chosen and much preferred path-- preferred to becoming what women, given their druthers would make us into, god forbid.

Please, take your touchy-feely circa 1973 women's group therapy-speak and put it where the sun does not shine.

IF you can't stand the heat, I hope there is a microwave in your kitchen, and you may leave your shoes at the door.

Thank you for showing your true colors by trying to manipulate and berate me into making an undeserved and unecessary apology. If you were a decent person with a sense of humor you would have seen the joke, but women of your ilk have no sense of humor, as you very nicely demonstrated.

But don't feel too bad, (and I know you won't) women have been doing men dirty since Eve. We're used to it.

Ahhh, feel the heat, I love it.

dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 09:53pm PT
Viagra Lardo wrote:

"RC.com seems to bring out the worst in me, so I'm better off over here by far.

JL"

From what I can see, Crimpergirl brings out the worst in you, in either forum, and from what she tells me, she gets a real laugh out of doing so.

Loom

climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
Aug 28, 2005 - 09:56pm PT
Chris built this virtual deli. Most people come sit at the tables, get drunk, chat, argue, and occasionally buy one of his sandwiches.

Some people come to the deli just for the world-famous sandwiches, but they get really peeved that so many tables are filled with people that yak endlessly about things other than sandwiches. Even though there is an endless supply of tables, even though they don't have to sit and listen to the others, and even though they are free to talk about sandwiches as much as they want--with only the occasional and minor interruption--to them it just doesn't seem right. They say things like, "how dare they, this place is about sandwiches, dammit!" and "this is a travesty, there oughta be law". They desperately desire that the guy at the other table, who used to be a master sandwich maker, would confide in them all the mysterious sandwich making arcana they so desperately crave, but alas it is not to be, he only speaks of fishsticks, fudgesickles and the Atkin's diet.

Meanwhile, Chris who says things like, "I just want to give back to the sanwich eatin' comminunitty, because ya know, gee whiz, aw shucks, sanwich eatin' has given so much to me," is out as much as possible eating, eating, eating the sandwiches of the world, research he calls it, while at the same time buying property like crazy in the red hot Tahoe market, when of a sudden he gets a call from the deli manager. It turns out the suggestion box has had a few impassioned complaints about people who wilfully refuse to talk about sandwiches.

Chris must make an appearance, because these are the dorks who buy three sandwiches: one to eat now, one to eat later, and one to be kept cryogenically frozen at home and displayed with reverence to all who visit.

But Chris must proceed carefully if he is to continue his research and maintain his portentous property portfolio; on the one hand he must calm the minority dweebs, but on the other hand he cannot be too vociferous lest he drive off the masses that, while definitely less sandwichcentric, actually do buy more sandwiches, all tolled, than their bumbly brethren.

As usual Chris manages, with his endearing Richie Cunninghamesque charm to bring peace to the deli, and one and all proclaim that C-Mac is our "Sandwich Hero".
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 10:04pm PT
Twerpolumne rainbow wrote:

"i don't care if people look at porn- soft core or not, it doesn't belong on this forum because some people view it in public places- chris mac says its lame too, in his first post, is he a twerp? is not having WCG post those going to keep you from finding such images on your own? you're not capable of finding them yourself?"

First, walk down a street in NYC, you'll see worse posted as advertising than what WCG posts here. Especially in Chelsea, where the boys are prettier than the girls.

Second, walk down a street in europe, you'll see ads for ice cream with bare breasted girls as the draw.

Note that these are public places too. Guess you'll have to start walking aroudn with a blindfold, huh?

Third, yes, Chris Mac is a twerp if he is going to delete WCG's tame but nice images of women, which are never demeaning, gory, or violent, or even truly sexual. But it's his site. And his right to be a twerp, just as it is your right to be a twerp. There is no law against being a twerp. Yet.

FOurth, as for me finding my own soft core porn, yes, I am incapable of finding it myself, and if WCG is prevented from posting the occasional pic to bust up ( hehe, I love puns) a stupid thread every once in a while, then it will cause me undue hard ship, and much mental misery, and I may not be able to get up in the morning and do what must be done. Even if I have a lifetime supply of Powdermilk Biscuits-- heavens, they're tasty!

Kodos would be proud.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 10:17pm PT
twerpolumne rainbow wrote:

"uhh you clearly havn't even read my posts?" End twerpolune rainbow quote

Yes, I've read them, until I began to puke.

twerpolumne rainbow wrote:
"i don't care if you look at porn. i don't care if there are non-climbing threads; if i see wcg posting a thread about his asian chicks its a given that i dont' clik on it, so no biggie.. .but i don't want to see it while i'm trying to read about climbing stuff; keep it out of those threas... in threads about motorcyles you could expect that kind of stuff to be posted, and not click on it. so its not big deal..." End twerpolumne rainbow quote

Well see, that's what's so funny, wcg posts those pics in hoplessly idiotic threads to break em up a little. I guess you in your neo-prude state of mind you wouldn't understand that though.

twerpolumne rainbow wrote:
"sorry if you can't handle my opinion, but i didn't read your post, because it would be waste of my time; i'm just some person on the internet so i dont' understand why you're so hoppin' worked up... LOL" End Twerpolumne rainbow quote

Yes, you see, if you read what I said it might have some evil corrupting effect on your brain, and you must keep to the straight and narrow right-minded path of whatever it is that YOU think is Korrect, and you mustn't wast time on the internet, oh no, the internet is MUCH too important to wast time on.

twerpolumne rainbow wrote:
by the way, it was Harry S. Truman who first said, "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"... you need to not plagarise, and give credit where credit is due.. " End twerpolumne rainbow quote.

Well my child, you see, what I wrote is not a quote at all, rather a paraphrasing parody of sorts, but then, I would not exptect you to understand the difference, as you are too young. In truth, if old Harry were alive, I would not think he would want to be credited with what I wrote.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 10:22pm PT
Lois,

Well you sure told me!

Now why in the hell would I ever want to speak with you? You have no sense of humor, you constantly miss the inuendo, and you don't listen very well.

Besides, I've already heard enough psycho-babble to last a lifetime.
Loom

climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
Aug 28, 2005 - 10:31pm PT
This bickering is definitely not sandwich-related.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 10:47pm PT
Loom wrote: "This bickering is definitely not sandwich-related."

Bickering??? Who's bickering? I'm laughing so hard I'm getting an ab workout here.

BTW, your sandwich post was hilarious.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:09pm PT
Lois,

Did it cost a lot, and hurt very much, when you had your sense of humor removed? How about when you had the follow up where they placed the long stick in your rectum?

What's it like being a true bluenose biddy, with all that venom stored up inside you?

I'd recommend you to the Bluenose Internet Table of Cold Hearted Evil Spinsters & Spouses, but I think you are a bit extreme even for them.

dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
yes, calling a twerp kid a twerp kid is SUCH abuse!!!!!

OH my dear, my dear, what have I done???


How will I ever live with myself?????

The shame, the shame!

Will Twerpolumne rainbow ever recover from this horrid, traumatic event???

Will Dirtineye ever live down the shame, or be able to function without the depraved PORN of WCG?

Will Lois ever get that stick out of her ass???


Stay tuned to, As The Topo Turns!!!!
Ouch!

climber
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:29pm PT
ROTFLMAO! Of all the threads for a flame war to break out in!

I Love it..Love it..LOL!
MikeL

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:48pm PT
Hey, Chris,

I've read your "rules of Supertopo.” I don’t see any rules.

I think it’s too late to do anything about the complaints. You’ve left the barn door open; closing the door won’t do any good. The behaviors on Supertopo have been socialized. What you see is what this community is.

Political types won’t go gently to a political forum. It’ll be a death to them. Hijacking must be done where it’s not wanted.

In the end, you must decide. You’re the CEO. Make a decision.

Is the Forum readership the same readership that buys your books? If not, then you’re serving too many customer groups for a little company. Your books and its readers—5.6-5.9 climbers--are the basis for your brand. (This from one of your colleagues I met at The Needles last week.)

Build and protect your company’s brand. (If you’re not building brand, then you’re spending it—and that well is surprisingly shallow.) To build and protect a brand, a company must be extremely clear, disciplined, and focused on who it serves, what it promises, and how well it’s delivering on those promises.

ml
Watusi

Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:52pm PT
I'll certainly be thinking twice about the things I post now (funny or not)...This is a cool thing and I wouldn't want to see it Mucked Up!
Ouch!

climber
Aug 29, 2005 - 12:22am PT
MikeL, Man , you need to chill out. You are wired way too tight and come across as seething with suppressed anger. That could cause a dude to blow a puckerstring. Chris will work this out to suit his needs. Maybe he will run all of us off except you. Either way, it's his affair and I'd give odds the sun will rise tomorrow somewhere.
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Aug 29, 2005 - 12:28am PT
HEllo T Rainbow...don't fall into an obvious trap of crap by those wishing to get your fur up!!!........ It is not worth it...On the other hand, your point of having two forums being two thimes work I feel is correct... I say leave this site as it is... But then, who the hell am I.....
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 29, 2005 - 12:59am PT
Oh good grief, Ouch! is damned right about it MikeL, CHILL!

Even if Mr Stupid Tacos bans me, if I ever want a topo of some route out west I'll buy one of his. Even if he is a T-W-E-R-P-enabler.

But Ouch, I have not flamed here, not really. I am retired from flaming for several years, after reducing a grown man to raving, foaming at the mouth, incoherent lunacy, in print yet, over, well, nothing. YOU gotta retire after a thing like that, it can never be equaled. Besides, it's a terrible thing to watch someone self destruct on the internet.

I did set Kodos off a while back but that was an accident, and started over the phone, and besides he can't really help it, when the must is upon him.

However, I can't resist a good poke (hehe) at a self rightoeus female, especially one who does not know what being trolled is.

Lois, being trolled sucessfully means someone got your goat, and good. IT means biting hook line and sinker on a bait to powerful to resist. It means your chain has been yanked, HARD.

But this last bit was not a true troll. There was a bit of self inflammation there. I just... fanned the coals a bit.

Flames? No. Smoulder?? Hehe, hell yeah!
Licky

Mountain climber
California
Aug 29, 2005 - 01:22am PT
This seems to work pretty well on other boards

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person. Great minds do not always think alike, and that's where the fun is! Also, note that messages express the thoughts of the writers, not the board or its moderators.
Ouch!

climber
Aug 29, 2005 - 01:24am PT
Jousting and gouging is good sport as long as no one gets too mad and gets their feelings hurt to where it lasts for more than 10 minutes. LOL!

You gotta be able to laugh at yourself.
Licky

Mountain climber
California
Aug 29, 2005 - 01:34am PT
Its funny Ouch!, I've seen in bars, as probably (I hope) you have too, guys that came to blows over nothing more than comments made to each other. My point is that to think because this is the Internet and this is nothing more that light hearted "jousting", you are not pulling someone else's string to a point where they loose control. Terms like "inciting a riot and instigating a fight" come to mind. When this happens, its easy to blame the other guy for not maintaining control. But in the end, it was the guy that was enjoying escalating the banter that was really at fault.

just saying...
Michael Moron

Social climber
Davison, MI
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:07am PT
I think ouch and matt start more non-climbing bullshit posts than the rest of the ST users combined.

Ouch!

climber
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:11am PT
I agree, if both sides are not enjoying it, it's time to call in the dogs, pee on the fire, blow out the lantern and head for the house.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:16am PT
Sorry,

I will go back on my meds.

Juan
Ouch!

climber
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:22am PT
Lois, you asked about what being trolled meant. Well, the Moron just tried to troll me with a weak lame. A lame is when some genius tries to set water on fire with a paper match.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:36am PT
Lois, take a pill.

You don't really believe all that nonsense you spew do you?

BTW, have you considered working for homeland security, the TSA, or some other para-military covert government agency, where your venom, vitriol, and general paranoia could be put to better use?

You need some serious time in the time out chair, Lois.



Ass for the rest of you PC wankers, you act like you've never been around any climbers at all.

Oh and Lois, T1 on your latest effort. Nice try though! And if you are serious, I only travel great distances to see people I actually know and like and have things in common with. That makes you quite safe.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 29, 2005 - 03:02am PT
For MikeL

My guess is that the forum is more than a luxury item extra for a publisher's website. It also brings in beta and history that's valuable in the writing of those books, and the activity in the forum rises the Supertopo profile on search engines.

Ironically, it was just earlier this year, late last year, that the supertopo forum was all the buzz, the place to be. In fact, it's never been better. We have Werner Braun, Duecey, Fish, Eric Kohl, Breedlove and a host of other old schoolers from back in the day sharing their thoughts here. How cool is that? Many of the folks here wouldn't feel comfortable approaching these guys in the camp 4 parking lot but here, in this venue, we're more equal, and we're being in community.

When the forum first started, it was infinitely nastier and unhelpful than it is now. Some folks like it that way, but I think it got better when you had to register.

I think Chris would be right not to fiddle too hard with a good thing. A little medicine is all it takes.

My guess is that we got a tad overheated here and there at the wrong time, and that Hardman and others pulled Chris's chain about it. (Sorry Dave if I'm speculating about you)

Rumors of problems in the forum are greatly exaggerated. We have a thread on adjustable daisies with the Lord Gods of Aid weighing in with technical details and slander too. My guess is that too restrictive a forum will kill the content that brings their perverse minds in for a visit, and then get sucked into helping with info.

Life is good. Sometimes folks have bad days. See above.

Peace

karl
MikeL

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2005 - 11:59am PT
Hiya, Karl:

I should have sent my comments directly to Chris. I can see that now. My bad.

Actually, I’m not mad at anyone. In fact, I don’t have enough time to cruise this site like most of you, so I can’t really get that passionately involved in most of the conversations here. (Please don’t take that wrong, either.) The title of this thread caught my eye though.

I was providing another viewpoint to Chris that, as a CEO (as he is) of a company, he should be thinking about. Management and leadership are demanding challenges, and sometimes hard decisions need to be made so that an organization serves others best.

I don’t doubt that people get value out of the Forum (hey, look at all the posts). That’s not the point. The point is that all resources are scarce, and every organization should think long and hard about where they spend them, especially little companies.

Brand name / equity may be the most valuable asset that Supertopo has (other than market access to network contacts); hence brand must constantly be built and nurtured with those scarce resources. To undertake any activity that does not build or nurture brand spends it. Do that too long (squander resources), and a company won’t have enough to further the organization, its mission, or properly serve customers. It’s one of the biggest reasons why past successful companies die off every year: they don’t focus, they prematurely diversify, and they get distracted. You may not know it, but the membership of the Fortune 500 changes by 50% every 25 years. There is a reason for that: they get full of themselves, they think they can do anything and everything, and they lose focus on a target customer group and its needs.

My comments were business comments. Perhaps they are inappropriate here on Supertopo. I’ll keep that in mind next time.

Peace out, Karl.

ml
Mick K

climber
Northern Sierra
Aug 29, 2005 - 12:33pm PT
Real names for all posters would cause eveyone to think twice.

Own what you say.

Fattrad have you ever given your real name or are you afraid?
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Aug 29, 2005 - 12:51pm PT
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaan you feel the loooooooooooooooooove tonight?
Mick K

climber
Northern Sierra
Aug 29, 2005 - 12:55pm PT
Fattrad-I always though you were actually Jody. Never saw you two in the same place.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 29, 2005 - 01:06pm PT
...or his evil overweight unwelcome uncle that always looks at the neighbor kids in a way that creeps everyone out.
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Aug 29, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
Dirtineye wrote:

Viagra Lardo wrote:

"RC.com seems to bring out the worst in me, so I'm better off over here by far.

JL"

From what I can see, Crimpergirl brings out the worst in you, in either forum, and from what she tells me, she gets a real laugh out of doing so."

Good to know I'm keeping the mood light. The fact that you've swerved the thread into this rut is another reason to have two channels for this forum--one for climbing related stuff, another for us to clown around.

JL
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 29, 2005 - 01:35pm PT
For MikeL

I have done bad too. I understood your comments were business comments and the first lines of my reply addressed to you were business comments too. Then, without noting it, I started babbling about the forum in general. It's my opinion that an active and even controversial forum is highly beneficial to the Supertopo brand, and that the less it's moderated, the less time and resource it cost's Chris.

For everybody else

This thread cracks me up. It's like when the bad kids are lined up in front of mom and dad to explain why they were fighting and they start pointing fingers and fighting all over again!

Jeff, kudos for coming out of the closet, I mean, boardroom. Can I call you Jeff in the forum now or do you want to stay "fatty?"

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:03pm PT
You should Invade Burger King Fatty!

It's obviously an anti-democratic institution that need to be occupied!

And they have weapons of Ass Contruction! WACs

Peace

karl
atchafalaya

Trad climber
California
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:10pm PT
how about a new rule, one where if someone who posts emails you personally to whine about non climbing subject posts on supertopo, that person gets automatically deleted from posting...
coolclimber

Trad climber
toronto,canada
Aug 29, 2005 - 02:47pm PT
very well written by LEB and supporting another member is a very honorable thing to do. she is right and has the right perspective on the male psyche and ego,hopefully chris will get the gist and do the right thing. looking forward to the outcome
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Mill Valley
Aug 29, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
Karl wrote:

When the forum first started, it was infinitely nastier and unhelpful than it is now. Some folks like it that way, but I think it got better when you had to register.

Are you kidding? The forum was pretty useless before registration.
It was far, far worse than the RC.com Community forum ever was.
I had stopped using the forum several months before Chris started the registration.

I think Chris would be right not to fiddle too hard with a good thing. A little medicine is all it takes.

Chris isn't going to do much fiddling. As he said, he's too busy actually climbing.
It's still pretty much anything goes––he just doesn't want to see mutilated
bodies on the site, and he doesn't want the political or flaming threads to cause
the climbing threads to be overshadowed too much.

My guess is that we got a tad overheated here and there at the wrong time, and that Hardman and others pulled Chris's chain about it. (Sorry Dave if I'm speculating about you)

That's a pretty good guess, but let me clarify from my viewpoint:
A couple weeks ago, Chris asked me to put up a Tahoe Bouldering photo-gallery for him.
I was in BC for 2 1/2 weeks, so I did it last monday before I headed up to Lover's Leap for the (last) week.
Chris was disappointed that the gallery post stayed on the front page only briefly,
because of a lot of the OT posts that were being made.
Also, I indeed e-mailed Chris (as I'm sure did others) that an extremely graphic pic of a guy whose head
had been blown off was posted to the site. So it was a matter of timing.

You gotta love Chris' hands-off approach to forum management.
I believe it has lots to do with why it's so popular these days.
Simply put, Chris doesn't want rotten.com or ogrish.com pics posted here.
I actually told Chris that I personally didn't have a problem with the scantily-clad
pics that were being posted (ha ha), and that they appeared to be popular with others....
In fact, if any females are offended, perhaps Waterchossguy could also post
some shirtless dude pics for the ladies––in order to balance things out a bit.


Rumors of problems in the forum are greatly exaggerated. We have a thread on adjustable daisies with the Lord Gods of Aid weighing in with technical details and slander too. My guess is that too restrictive a forum will kill the content that brings their perverse minds in for a visit, and then get sucked into helping with info.

Well put. Minimal management seems to work best!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 29, 2005 - 03:56pm PT
"Karl wrote:

When the forum first started, it was infinitely nastier and unhelpful than it is now. Some folks like it that way, but I think it got better when you had to register."

Hardman then wrote:

Are you kidding? The forum was pretty useless before registration.
It was far, far worse than the RC.com Community forum ever was.
I had stopped using the forum several months before Chris started the registration.

Karl now writes:

I'm agreeing with you Dave. For the sake of balance there were some sickos that liked the slander fest that the pre-reg forum was. I think registration was good for it.

Peace

karl

PS Keeping any Gallery post up is going to require some kind of sticky or intentional bumping. Even the climbing threads will sink it asap.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 29, 2005 - 04:24pm PT
My two cents: In the short time that I have been visiting and contributing (I hope constructively) to the forum, I have gotten to like it and the people on it, even Michael Moron, Mountain Man, Fattrad and HowweirdDean (I just don't agree with them). While I never left climbing, I did curtail my climbing activities over the years, but now that I am ramping up that activity, this site provides me with a lot of useful info. I thank you all, sincerely.

I think it would be a shame if Chris had to regulate it much more than it is. I think as a community we should go in for a bit more self-regulation. Flaming is okay I guess, though sometimes it can get out of hand, but the sexual crap and pictures of dead people are OTT. That said, I did put a link up to a climbing accident video that, on reflection, may have been a bit tasteless, so I'll delete it if it hasn't already been.

Oops, this is more like twenty cents.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
St. Louis
Aug 29, 2005 - 06:20pm PT
Dirtineye wrote:
From what I can see, Crimpergirl brings out the worst in you, in either forum, and from what she tells me, she gets a real laugh out of doing so."

JL responds:
Good to know I'm keeping the mood light. The fact that you've swerved the thread into this rut is another reason to have two channels for this forum--one for climbing related stuff, another for us to clown around.

JL

CG exclaims:
I actually do some work for a couple of days and come back to this? I keep reading Dirt's comment and can't decide if he was being funny, or jabbing a knife in my back. (I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your comments Dirt. Either way, you're still a bud).

Just to be clear, I think JL is awesome, have nothing but respect for him and his sense of humor, and am thrilled that he's willing to engage in occasional banter with me. Actually, this goes for all of you here. I don't agree with everyone on this site, but I am happy to have made everyone's acquaintance. Thanks for letting me play in the sand box!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 30, 2005 - 08:43am PT
I have enjoyed greatly the insights of Lois (LEB) and Scott (climberweenie) here on the nature of online forums (specifically, thread drift and why it can be good and bad). Many other folks obviously have a good understanding of it as well.

I agree with Lois that dirtineye's posts are not a troll. They are straight and deep attacks, pure acid in my view. I don't know why toulumne*rainbow states they are a troll; perhaps to "make friends with a bully"? Perhaps just a moment of weakness on her part, or maybe a "reverse troll" (i.e. trolling dirtineye to see if he bites)? As others have noted, this thread is a perfect illustration of what is good and bad about the forum. Lots of good viewpoints, plus some bad stuff which may remind us of the potential "chilling effect" of (anonymous) repeated negative attacks. Such personal attacks can create a lot of "lurkers" or people who feel burned and do not want to participate again, because they do not want to waste time defending themselves against anonymous flamers/haters or spend time trying to classify a post as a troll or not. (Shack's post early in this thread [8/27, 5:49pm] is a relatively friendly example of what I'd call an "honest troll", where he makes a hopefuly sarcastic comment, then inserts a few blank lines and says "just kidding", but unfortunately even this style of post could be abused and used to make intentional attacks).

The original issue of this thread is the future of the supertopo forum. Having two forums might work, but I have my doubts. If the drift into nonclimbing thoughts is what makes threads interesting to the folks who write good posts, they may find the "climbing only" forum boring and only read and post to the "nonclimbing" forum. Or they might move there after some of their friends are banned. So most everything (including climbing posts) could switch to the "nonclimbing" forum and the other forum could become a ghost town. And while the occasional whack-a-mole (banning) technique works against obvious "bad guys" (death threats, extremely offensive photos), I don't think it can work against personal attacks, because they can be watered down slightly to squeeze just under the "banned" threshold.

It seems like the only clear advantage of making two forums is that it does not require any new programming/testing, i.e. it's a potentially free solution for Chris, which would be nice. I think most people would like a simple structure which would make the forum 99% "self-policing", something like the feedback system on ebay, which is not perfect but at least identifies the serious sellers. Scott suggested a voting method which is probably the fairest way to identify/block the "bad guys", but it would be expensive to implement. Unless someone competent wants to volunteer their time to develop and demo a working version of this sort of thing.

Here are my (possibly naive) 2 suggestions for structure that should be easy/cheap to implement to help make things at least more self-policing:

1. "Poster Info": In the vertical space below a poster's screen name, where it now says [xxxxxxxx] climber From: [often faked location], add two things:
1.A. date joined/registered [to identify bad guys coming back with new identities]; an icon like sunglasses on ebay could be used for this if joined in the last 30 days or so.
1.B. number of posts they have made in the past (or total when the thread is being read), if this information is already being kept track of. This would be a second indicator of how experienced the person is on the forum and whether we should take them seriously or whether they are newer and might need more explanations.

2. "Thread Pruning": Give the person who originates a thread a "Delete" button on all followup posts (not just on their own posts). Clearly easy to implement, and it lets the originator of a thread "control its destiny". This kind of local control can definitely stop personal attacks, with no moderation effort required by Chris. A slightly more powerful version would be to have a "Delete all posts by user" button, but it would be harder to implement. This type of Delete button does not solve all problems, because some people may be reluctant to use it or are not paying attention to their thread. It also does not stop "bad guys" from originating posts.
A short message like "Post deleted by [originator]" should replace the deleted post, so that readers can see when pruning is occuring, and who was being pruned. Incidentally, a similar short message should appear to replace a post deleted by the person who wrote it or by a moderator. So the post is still observed even though its content is deleted/replaced by the short message. If the user is later banned the post disappears completely.

Here are some additional suggestions which would be helpful but are probably not cheap to implement

3. "Thread Origination": To solve the problem of "bad guys" originating threads, have some kind of statistically based scoring system to identify them. I haven't tried such a statistical analysis myself, so the ideas below are rough and probably not the best that could be done.
3.A. If we agree that many baddies register under free email spots like hotmail.com, make a "suspect" list of such domains. If a user's email is on one of those lists, create a "Delete" button available to Chris and a few trusted moderators. I know "moderator" is a bad word to some, but it seems there are people who spend a lot of time on this forum, have good judgement, and would probably like to help defend the innocent in some capacity like this.
3.B. New (say under 7 days) registrants from suspect domains could be automatically blocked from originating threads. Or their proposed thread could be queued for approval by a moderator (default approval in 24 hours if no moderator objects). This capability is rather restrictive and should only be used if there is a big problem of new registrants trying to avoid past banning. It would at least not block newbies from .edu domains from asking their climbing questions.
3.C. New registrants can only originate one thread in the first 24 hours.
3.D. No multiple screennames/personalities from a single email address. I think we already have this? I.e. once banned, always banned. Fairly easy to work around via hotmail.com, though.
3.E."History Score": For folks who have been around for awhile, and are sometimes good and sometimes bad :-) have a history score system to decide if they can originate threads. Subtract points if they have had their followup posts pruned by at least 2 different originating users. Add points for the number of posts they have made in the past (say more than 30 days ago).

4. "Image Posting": same ideas as for "Thread Origination" (3.E.). Block users from posting images if they have a low history score. Block or queue (for moderation) image posting by New registrants from suspect domains.

5. "Probation/Delaying": If banning (and reregistration to circumvent banning) is a problem, put a user with a long history but a low history score "on probation", where their posts are automatically delayed for 2 hours before they appear on the forum. This would be a status short of being fully banned, but also without the usual rights. It might also give them an incentive to think more carefully about their post, since they know it will not show up for awhile anyway.

The above suggestions are mostly fairly mechanical, so they should not require much intervention/judgement calls by any moderators. If people want more human intervention, it would be nice to add points for people using a real name, and subtract points for negative/attacking posts that are not pruned and for ambiguous or excessive trolls (i.e. Juan de Fuca/Jeff Batten, unless he has suddenly gotten funnier - I don't read any threads he originates). Or a voting system could be used to rate posts.

Well, hopefully the easy suggestions can improve things, and the harder ones are there if someone wants to volunteer to do the programming/testing.
coolclimber

Trad climber
toronto,canada
Aug 30, 2005 - 09:53am PT
for all the so called climbers out there who talk so tough on these forums, believe it or not u could be cranking 12's and 13's, but if u showed your colors out there as u show them here u'll would not be treated as climbers. climbers have respect for others, that is an inherent quality in a climber that u inculcate when u take up this sport as any other sport too.. .so let's drop all this pseudo behaviour and try to keep this forum the best way we can
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Aug 30, 2005 - 11:35am PT
OMG! LEAVE IT ALONE!

Clint, I love you like an older brother, but you just scribed out the Terms of Service for rockclimbing.com.

NO!!

For the love of climbing forums Chris, LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

Pick out the most vocal of Matt's critics (since he seems to be the current poster child for the ills of cyberspace), I don't care which one. Take a good look at THEIR contributions over the last year...

That is all this is ever going to be about... the desire of some to control the words of others. And they will use any means at their disposal to do it too.

Shame on them.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2005 - 11:55am PT
Clint and Dingus

I will say that little prick dirtineye is the worst mo fu-cker ass-hole on this board as far as his personal attacks on people.

Just like his alias “dirt in eye” says he has dirt in his eyes and does nothing but project dirt on everything he sees.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Aug 30, 2005 - 11:59am PT
Whack em, I couldn't care less.

But RULES??? FOR ROCK CLIMBERS???

I would have thought this bunch would hold out till the end.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2005 - 12:05pm PT
Yea I agree Dingus rules for rock climbers is a joke. The only rules that work are the unwritten ones out in back.

And you know what those rules become ……
Mick K

climber
Northern Sierra
Aug 30, 2005 - 12:08pm PT
I agree no rules.

Ask yourself how would be handled around the campfire? talking leads to yelling, yelling leads to punching, which leads to either eternal hate or lifelong friendship.
the Fet

Trad climber
Loomis, CA
Aug 30, 2005 - 12:09pm PT
How 'bout just an ignore user button (kill file)? So you don't see the posts from people who you don't want to.

Personal censorship. Anyone can write what they want = freedom of speech. And you can block offensive material from those the threadjack, etc.

So far I only have two people in my personal (mental) kill file, people that when I see their name I just skip their post.

It would take some programming, but no maintenance.

First thing I'd do is block The Fet, that self-righteous suck up.

Edit: ignore user, plus whack a mole should do just fine.
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Aug 30, 2005 - 12:14pm PT
DIRTINEYE wrote: "Ass for the rest of you PC wankers, you act like you've never been around any climbers at all."

Pretty funny . . .
JL
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2005 - 12:19pm PT
"Anyone can write what they want = freedom of speech."

Yes, you can write anything you want, but one will have to take the responsibility for it also.

Trash talking is like the croaking of the frog, which simply invites the snake of death to come and eat him.
Hootervillian

climber
Hooterville, NV
Aug 30, 2005 - 12:51pm PT
Maybe an anthrax email would quiet the rabbel rousers?
Bill

climber
San Francisco
Aug 30, 2005 - 01:21pm PT
"Trash talking is like the croaking of the frog, which simply invites the snake of death to come and eat him."

Snakes are deaf. Maybe snakes of death are different.
Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Aug 30, 2005 - 01:26pm PT
Chris just asked me to be the moderator of the forum. I now have the ability to wack any post I see fit to wack. Everybody behave now.
imnotclever

climber
Aug 30, 2005 - 01:45pm PT
^^ See now that's funny.


But it could be good. Have Jody insert one of his pictures in place of the wacked post.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 30, 2005 - 02:19pm PT
i would love to see how some of these overtly masculine rightwingers would react if some chiquita started posting shots of male underwear models or somesuch (melisa? kate? anyone? it sure won't be me, as much as i think the judys would quietly dig it).
smokin_nolens

Social climber
California Valley, California
Aug 31, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
LEB & T*R-

You are not the voice of women on this forum.

I am totally comfortable with porn. What I am uncomfortable with is hysterical women who fear free thought & freedom of speech, no matter how ugly. Jeez, you act like it was a hate crime, and not just some spewing. Look at the source!

Just like I said to the mother of the screaming child in line at the market: Give that child what he wants or give him what he needs!

Afraid of a man and his words! We should be afraid of people who have no problem becoming an aunt of yet more kids!!!

Maybe T*R is just helping Mr. Bush out with his little problem of body replacement in Iraq by encouraging breeding. Way to go.

Oh, my copy of 'Power Exchange' just came! Gotta go hide in a corner and have fun.

TaTa
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2005 - 08:20pm PT
AaaKkkkkk, Don't Split The Forum! It won't do a thing to keep the threads in line.

The biggest reason for the success of this forum is the diversity of the folks posting -- there's a commuity here like no other. Monkey with it and you'll blow a darned good thing. Like Baba said, we've got amazing folks reading and posting--that would disappear fast if this thing started to have real rules.

Like a dad who spread his seed too far, C-Mac wants to make sure his unruly family behaves long enough at the dinner table so that everybody gets a chance at the veggies, and that nobody gets harmed sticking their arm out for seconds.

But some kidz hate veggies.

And that's cool, they don't have to eat 'em. As long as they don't blow it for those that like the nutrition.

But restrictions on content, on who can (or can't) post, yadda yadda, and you might as well watch FoxNews, the never-say-anything-bad-about-the-Administration network. The people who want the real dirt know to look elsewhere.

I'm here because you never know what a gacked out climber might do next, and what could be more fun. Sometimes we just talk trash after a good day on the stone, sometimes we're just trashed and talk stoned. It's all good fodder for the community. That is as long as you don't air your personal BS and you don't overstep the line of how you'd treat your good friends. Cause that's what this community is all about. A gathering of folks with nothing holding them together other than a bent for the edge.

A tall-boy to you, C-Mac.

:- k
Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Aug 31, 2005 - 11:33pm PT
"i would love to see how some of these overtly masculine rightwingers would react if some chiquita started posting shots of male underwear models or somesuch (melisa? kate? anyone? it sure won't be me, as much as i think the judys would quietly dig it)."

Mutt, I am not angry at you. I feel deep sorrow for your pathetic position in life. The lifestyle you choose to follow, you yourself are having trouble accepting. This is evident by your obsession with real men of the right, your apparent infatuation with male underwear models, and your denial of interest in such things, a true indicator of an individual struggling to come to grips with their own sexuality, or lack thereof.

Like I said in another thread, keep posting Mutt, you will continue to prove to everyone what you are...a very confused and psychotic little boy.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 31, 2005 - 11:53pm PT
Jody wrote:
"This is evident by your obsession with real men of the right"

You mean men like Jeff Gannon?

Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Sep 1, 2005 - 12:31am PT
Mr Bush, would you characterize your leadership as godlike or merely brilliant?
Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Sep 1, 2005 - 12:35am PT
"I really hope your kidding jody . Having you as moderator is like having that dumb ass George Bush as president (which is bad) Or like leaving the fox in charge of the hen house. Its just wrong.."


Or maybe he thinks I am the most level-headed one here and knows an intelligent individual when he sees one.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 1, 2005 - 02:46am PT
I vote for one topic!

"The games we like the most are the ones we don't understand," Hobbes, of C & H
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Sep 2, 2005 - 03:54am PT
Crimpie,
Sometimes a knife is just a knife, you know.

Wbraun,
You hurt my widdle feewings, you mean old man.

Viva largo,
Hey I had a lot of help swerving the thread.

Sorry I have not been posting, I've been busy terrorizing small children and helpless women, trying to live up to the image some of you have created for me. It's hard work. Most of em just laugh.

Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Sep 2, 2005 - 10:55am PT
The photo-shopped picture threads and the multiple "whining about politicians" threads being started are getting tiresome. Time for another vacation.
LqdSlvr

Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
Sep 2, 2005 - 11:25am PT
Smokin_nolens wrote:

"Just like I said to the mother of the screaming child in line at the market: Give that child what he wants or give him what he needs!"

Have kids yourself? Didn't think so.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Sep 2, 2005 - 11:33am PT
Someone says that to me in the supermarket and I'm gonna poke my screaming kid with a sharp stick just to make a point.

Get it... point???

You kidless folks will never understand, but after a while, us parents can tune out screaming children, hardly hear em atall.

And we mostly don't give a sh#t if you folks have a problem with that. Seriously, we don't.

You don't like our screaming kids in the grocery store? Go some where f*#king else! The store is for US anyway fools.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Sep 2, 2005 - 11:42am PT
I look at all the treads on this and other sites as living things that reflect the natrual tendencies of the contributors. Some like to have everything follow a neat and ordered progression with no deviation from the term paper form, where a thesis is sated at the outset and we all elaborate on same. Others fused to an agenda try and wrench every toopic onto their cherished turf. Some repet the same arguments and don't listen to or learn anything from what others are saying. Some of us with ADD range far and wide just for the hell of it. Some take pot shots out of bordome and frustration. Some feign offense and tred imaginary high ground. Others posture and mope and carp and whine and ridicule. Take any of these perspectives out of the mix and the entertainment value pluments.

Leave it a free for all, and come what may . . .

JL
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Sep 2, 2005 - 11:53am PT
Right now, st.com HAS an active community of real climbers posting frequently, about all subjects under the sun.

THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

Some of you won't know what you had till its gone.

DMT
Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Sep 2, 2005 - 12:03pm PT
DMT said:"Someone says that to me in the supermarket and I'm gonna poke my screaming kid with a sharp stick just to make a point.

Get it... point???

You kidless folks will never understand, but after a while, us parents can tune out screaming children, hardly hear em atall.

And we mostly don't give a sh#t if you folks have a problem with that. Seriously, we don't.

You don't like our screaming kids in the grocery store? Go some where f*#king else! The store is for US anyway fools."


For once in my life I agree with milkdud 100%. So well put. If my kid was having a bad day and fussing a bit in the store and some idiot told me to quiet the kid I would slash the tires on his shopping cart. Did it ever occurr to these fools that maybe, just maybe, the kid is NOT misbehaving, but has another, possibly health related issue?

Thanks DMT for standing up for us folks with kids. We are tired of being oppressed! :)
LqdSlvr

Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
Sep 2, 2005 - 12:32pm PT
Jody, just make sure you note which side of this issue I'm on so you don't smite me with your new-found powers! ;)
Brutus of Wyde

climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
Sep 3, 2005 - 11:21pm PT
I go away climbing for a few days and look what I miss!

Pictures of someone who croaked, then Bill calls Werner a snake? A smooth, scaly satin satan? Picture Eve on the eve of the fall of man, in the Garden, No picture her not that's Knotty; we all watch dirtineye talk potty (the pot of dirt thrown at the end of the rainbow) Brother we are so motivated to remove your mote from the board in our own eye, aye, I owe room and board in the Burgerking sandwich shop of our minds, I raise a toast to Milk as we discover that fattrad is the elephant in the living room The bill trolls, the bell tolls; we see Karlee with hair up there, before he dipped his knoggin in Nair; the truth revealed about 46 Bear; seeing a 6-pack of Rackulated's Mac almost gave this geezer a heart attack --

I tell you this, it's good to be back.
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2005 - 12:45am PT
great thoughts above. thank you.

its hard to tell what is going on with the forum at any one time. there are always some great posts. and, there always seem to be a few posts that I read and cringe thinking "wow, i am creating a place for people to express that type of personal attack/nasty stuff... yikes"

i think the forum needs some better ways too keep the nasty stuff out... but i can't think of any drastic changes that need to be implemented right now.

the webmaster and i are looking into many of the suggestions in the posts above and welcome more ideas. but we do understand that we can't make any major tweaks without changing the whole nature of the forum. and we dont want to do that.

please continue to email me when they come across stuff that is particularly nasty.

hope that you are all enjoying the summer and getting out on the rocks!
SlabMaster

Mountain climber
NorCal
Sep 4, 2005 - 02:28pm PT
I'm not sure I understand. Does the variety of topics on the website prevent climbers from easy access to climbing advice, warnings, ect.? Or is it just that the forum has been co-opted unexpectedly for a social purpose? Have there been complaints about certain threads/writers? It seems to me that the position expressed in "the future of the forum" is rather like that of a parent who is angry with her child for not turning out the way she wanted. If your child grew up to have a full, rich life, but one that involved activities that you did not approve of (i.e. rock climbing), wouldn't you still be proud of them? Likewise, if this site has turned into a social forum which allows climbers to stay in touch, discuss issues, and become a more cohesive, tightly knit community, then it has value, I think.
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Sep 18, 2005 - 03:14am PT
I did a "Bump"...
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 18, 2005 - 03:52am PT
Chris,

One way to keep some of the "nasty" stuff out would be to grant moderator privilages to some of the more level headed and "clean" posters of the site. Trust them to help you keep it clean and positive.

of course that approach brings up other issues and drawbacks also. But if done in moderation, then moderators might not be such a bad idea to try.

tell Mitch hi for me. :)

Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Sep 18, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
One way to keep some of the "nasty" stuff out would be to grant moderator privilages to some of the more level headed and "clean" posters of the site. Trust them to help you keep it clean and positive. "

Well, I am the only one to fit that description, so I guess the job is mine.


Seriously though, bad idea, would just turn this forum into another rc.com like place with power hungry moderators running around like they were actually important or something. I kind of like the whack-a-mole approach with the mysterious and anonymous whacking of certain posts and users.

It was kind of funny when I had Matt and his friend Bob(waterchestnut)believing I was the whack-a-mole! Warms my heart to know I cost Matt a 12-pack(or was it a six-pack?)
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 18, 2005 - 01:07pm PT
yeah, I just meant Chris giving other power to wack so he didn't have to waste his time doing it himself.

wouldn't even have to tell anyone.

I too don't want to see Supertoporockclimbing.com, and I wouldn't want to moderate either.
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Sep 19, 2005 - 01:14am PT
"bad idea, would just turn this forum into another rc.com like place with power hungry moderators running around like they were actually important".........right on the money with this one.............
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Sep 19, 2005 - 02:20am PT
How about this?

Ouch!

climber
Sep 19, 2005 - 02:47am PT
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Sep 19, 2005 - 03:44am PT
the future of this fourm seems grim... I may soon be done with it in fact. But who knows.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Ca
Sep 19, 2005 - 11:33am PT
I think the forum is by far the best climbing one on the net. Keep it just the way it is.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Feb 22, 2007 - 07:25am PT
Some coward made a silent bump on this post to bring it to the top of the page. But I figured I'd reply.

This place - Supertopo - really sucks now. There is hardly any climbing stuff here any more, the pages are polluted with crap. It's kinda boring. It used to be a good place. It's not any more.

Supertopo has jumped the shark.
joane

climber
Feb 22, 2007 - 10:20am PT
Gut feelings:
I haven't read through all of the posts here but as a newcomer I wanted to say it's a relief that Chris McN staffer at ST acted to discuss this issue here.
I don't read each and every thread, I select ones about climbing (mostly). I felt kind of like a sucker when I read through a lot of good comments on how to improve climbing and then hit the one with a rather unhappy looking female of some young age posing apparently without any clothes on hooked up in a harness. Feeling about as sorry for the person who posted it, wondering why, I felt even worse about how life's circumstances in our country brought someone to this point.
But really in a selfish way, I didn't want to know about it and I would not have chosen to take a look had I known what was coming up. So I think Chris' idea about giving a fair warning or just informative stuff about content might be useful. It's not too judgmental to characterize a thread with , "nudity abounds here". That way the young girl posing can be happy, the poster can feel good, and I don't have to get involved or have my visual environment impacted adversely.

I think the comments about the forum's public nature are important because not only are comments and posts public but the world wide net is public around the world. So, for example, those females already having a difficult time say somewere in the mideast about which I have read in international mags in articles on them climbing there--heavily wrapped in their robes, may find, if they do have access to this forum, that their elders were right in that climbing is for those sinners over there. (so to speak). Or just as sad, the underage or provincial kid here will see that boy we climbers sure do have some strange ideas.

And as a matter of fact it should be really evident that we do now here in our country have way too many superior moralists overseeing and intervening in some very personal areas of our lives from time to time, or with domestic surveillance and politics who knows maybe everyday. It would be nice to believe that the good will win, but I think we can see that perhaps sometimes the innocent are hurt, or become victims, and sometimes it's just plain old human nature, people make mistakes. So why have a website that just goes on to explore indiscriminately the range of humanity on what are generally acknowledged as usually uniquely private individual issues and choices.

So I don't want to have to even think about whether the young girl posing in the photo on how to improve climbing who is in a harness of some nature and without clothes on it would appear, is underage or posing against her will or whatever, I don't want to have to wonder, is there something wrong going on that I have any responsibility for either in law or morally because now it is in front of my face. I'd rather have the choice to let it go elsewhere,on some thread that says " see picture of female without clothes on hanging in harness" and let others figure out whether it is viewable or not.
Finally I gotta say, I haven't climbed out west but as a solo climbing woman venturing into remote places to climb, I'd think twice about taking a chance of meeting up with some of these kinds of characters where I don't find civilization's protections surrounding me. Sure, you always take a chance and one crummy post among so many interesting other ones is not to rule the day. But in the end why you choose to climb somewhere is based on a feeling about how likely it is that you will enjoy climbing and not find strangers who make you feel uncomfortable, or who are threatening or just plain violent. Maybe there is no problem and it is innocent fun. Maybe it's a bunch of creeps. Who knows, and why do I want to go there to find out.
I'd like to interact with other posters on climbing issues on this forum, or at least on content that I would not be ashamed to have shown by Borat. I'm not speaking from a position of purity from a high place, I'm just saying I prefer to have a choice on what pops up on my screen.
So I think Chris's ideas will make that possible.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Feb 22, 2007 - 10:55am PT
"This place - Supertopo - really sucks now. There is hardly any climbing stuff here any more, the pages are polluted with crap. It's kinda boring. It used to be a good place. It's not any more."

Then leave dude.

DMT
punjab

Trad climber
oregon
Feb 22, 2007 - 10:57am PT
Pete-

totally agree...seems like any time someone asks a serious climbing related question most of the replys are snide and uninformative, albeit witty and humurous. it makes for a enviornment where people, myself included are hesitant to ask questions because of the inevitable one-liners that will ensue. the amount of knowledge and experience that lurks is so great and i thank all those that are willing to share it with others.

the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Feb 22, 2007 - 11:19am PT
I always thought the Taco would have jumped the shark when the current days topic wouldn't fit on one page. (i.e. when more than 30 topics were posted on that day) Now it's approaching two pages for the days topics (approaching 60).

But so what. I can scan two pages and see if there's topics I'm interested in. I don't want to split the forum and have to check two places to see if there's topics I'm intested in.

I only care that people accurately label their topics.

The only addition I'd like to see is a form of flagging, like on Craigslist. If enough (3?) users flag a post/topic, it's deleted.

from Craigslist:

please flag with care : [miscategorized] [prohibited] [spam] [best of]




thanks for flagging (or nominating for best of)!

If you flagged by mistake - don't worry, it takes more than one flag to affect a posting.

Over 15% of all craigslist postings are removed through community flagging.
G_Gnome

Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
Feb 22, 2007 - 11:40am PT
Punjab said: 'seems like any time someone asks a serious climbing related question most of the replys are snide and uninformative, albeit witty and humurous.'

How is this any different than a day at the rocks? This is exactly how my friends treat me and each other. I think it's great that this attitude actually carries over to the net. If the question is serious it gets serious answers too.
Tahoe climber

Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
Feb 22, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
I think it's awesome that Chris's original two posts on this thread clearly outlined what the forum is intended for. Here it is, in quotes below:

"Our goal with the climbing forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations."

"the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community"

I say, take the political BS elsewhere, and, for that matter, all the rest of the non-climbing stuff elsewhere, too.
If I want politics and bickering, I'll go to a forum intended to cover those topics. And I'd prefer to listen to people who are educated and knowledgable about it, rather than the oft-biased, polarized ranters often found here.
Though from time to time I'm guilty of being drawn into other conversations, I mainly come here for climbing info. That's it. If you have something else to share, or are interested in somethings else, I say, maybe you should go somewhere else, and stop cluttering up a privately owned web forum clearly intended for climbing related topics.
This is not a campfire; it's someone else's private property, and we're graciously allowed visitation rights for a relatively specific purpose that's pretty clearly outlined. See original posts by the owner on this very thread.
Maybe in that way, we can prune some of the blatantly irrevalent topics and more importantly, some of the petty bickering, too.
Not really trying to police the forum, here, just saying, maybe it's better used for its intended purpose and not forced into something else.

My opinion, anyway.
Thanks for reading.
Aaron
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Feb 22, 2007 - 12:29pm PT
There's an ebb and flow to the forum that's directly related to what is occurring in the wider world. I guarantee it will pick up again as soon as something interesting happens worth a good verbal battle.
Leave the forum as is; it works. Whacking posts showing dead bodies or porn is fine with me. Most people on ST are mature enough to draw a line for themselves as to what is appropriate. A few seem to have difficulty in doing so. Those should be admonished and dumped if they continue to abuse.
On the other hand, how about a separate forum for the subject of Cats.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Feb 22, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
There's an ebb and flow to the forum that's directly related to what is occurring in the wider world.

Like winter? I was hoping that maybe the climbing content would pick up as weather improved in more non-SoCal backyards.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Feb 22, 2007 - 12:52pm PT
Climbing is the common thread that brings us here, but if it was all climbing, it would be pretty boring. Climbing's great, but there's a lot more to life.

It's interesting to click on the recent posts in people's profiles. CMac's posts are about 40% on climbing topics. As are mine. The people who say they want only climbing topics that I've checked are up to 60% climbing.

Ignore the inane posters and topics, you know who they are.
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Feb 22, 2007 - 01:23pm PT
hmmm
as someone that prolly posts more non-climbing than climbing, this does give pause for thought...

i'm gonna try
1) climb more. take pics. post the TR
2) nuke some of the non - climbing threads i started once the point has been made
3) bump for climbing. bump for other cool threads. bump more for climbing...
4) learn to ignore some of the other stuff

that's all i can do...
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Feb 22, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
Dear L and nita:

I'll say it again: it's nice of you both to stick up for Crowley. You both profess to know him in real life (which ST is becoming less (more?) like every day).

But here's the thing: Matthew Moore, as A. Crowley calls himself, has not revealed to any of us ST people any of his good qualities. You apparently are privy to them. We are not. All we see from Crowley is hateful drivel.

Now, no one said Crowley, or Matthew Moore, was a dog hater. As gw, he said nasty things to be provocative, which is standard Crowley crap. Being a provocateur is what he's all about, and as such he can easily put on a "dog hater" hat and post nasty stuff on an otherwise sympathetic thread. Which pretty much amounts to being a troll, but a particularly nasty one with a superiority complex which has convinced him that ANYTHING he has to say is worthy, relevant and right. And he does it all from his mom's basement!

As LEB pointed out, the only sensible thing Crowley ever posted was copied from someone else - some attorney's advice on how to protect your identity. (LEB, read closer - Crowley is not saying he is an attorney in that post. Maybe there's another in which he does? I actually don't read much of what he writes).

So you can demonize me if you want. But I only deserve a sliver of it. You see, I am out to rid ST of Crowley and there may be some collateral damage.

Carry on.
L

climber
The City of Lost Angels
Feb 22, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
Pagan,

When climbers aren't posting TRs, we need something else to do with our eyes. You've posted some AWESOME threads, and like most of the interesting people on this site, I like the variety, too.

Russ and Susan post about the Diet Challenge. That's not climbing, but it sure as hell is funny. Dirtineye is in the hospital. Not climbing, but many of us are interested big time. Woody's crotch and Ouch!'s hysterical creations are pretty far removed from a TR, but this site would be damn boring without them.

Don't lose perspective on the many layers of life that we as climbers enjoy...sharing them gives us all more empathy with other posters, and a better understanding of ourselves.
couchmaster

climber
Feb 22, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
Cut from Chris's first post:

"sexual photos are posted "

Uhhh,........ where are those specifically?
L

climber
The City of Lost Angels
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
Sorry Wild Bill--You're letting your animosity blind you. Crowley is about politics, not pooches. He's also about sparring with those who can defend themselves, not innocent bystanders, pets, or handicapped children.

You're on a mission to destroy Crowley. Wonderful. Have fun. You obviously don't have anything else in your life.

But you're the one looking like the real jerk here when you say "You see, I am out to rid ST of Crowley and there may be some collateral damage."
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
Shhhhhhhhh, not so loud, L.

Crowley's already left, I don't want him to hear you and come back.

BTW, I'm not the moderator here, but if I was I'd have pulled Crowley's plug a long time ago. You and nita are the ONLY posters to EVER say a positive thing about Crowley. Aside from a few who have, in the same breath, asked him to STFU.
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
"It is is method of posting which is the problem."...

If you post something seeking a CERTAIN reaction and GET IT...

how can that be considered a problem to the original poster???...

the PROBLEM as I see it is that MANY have a PROBLEM with it...

Personally I do not...

At least NO MORE than ANY other Political threads/posts...

why is ANY one of OUR "Ways of posting" ANY more VALID simply because they are a MORE accepted way???...

As individuals etc...

how many times has it been written...

"if you don't like the post...

don't read the post...

if you want climbing related topics to surface more...

then YOU should personally POST on them and they will SURface...

how many times do you see the "Lurker" only come out just to complain about there not being enough CLIMBING topics on the front page so on and so on and then they go back in hiding waiting to POST only to COMPLAIN???...

Fuking deal with it for what it is and don't change ANYTHING but yourself...

and I include myself in that 100%...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:36pm PT
The Fet wrote:
I don't want to split the forum and have to check two places to see if there's topics I'm interested in.

I only care that people accurately label their topics.

Climbing is the common thread that brings us here, but if it was all climbing, it would be pretty boring. Climbing's great, but there's a lot more to life.

It's interesting to click on the recent posts in people's profiles. CMac's posts are about 40% on climbing topics. As are mine. The people who say they want only climbing topics that I've checked are up to 60% climbing.

Ignore the inane posters and topics, you know who they are


I agree Fet.



LEB wrote:
There is a lot of bickering and simplistic posting which does not say much.

I am particularly NOT very impressed with what Crowley is adding to the forum since his recent arrival esp in view of the quantity of his posts. I do believe it is affecting overall character of the forum.


I agree with much of that Lois


WoodyST wrote:
There's an ebb and flow to the forum that's directly related to what is occurring in the wider world. I guarantee it will pick up again as soon as something interesting happens worth a good verbal battle.

Leave the forum as is; it works. Whacking posts showing dead bodies or porn is fine with me. Most people on ST are mature enough to draw a line for themselves as to what is appropriate. A few seem to have difficulty in doing so. Those should be admonished and dumped if they continue to abuse.


Well said Woody



Tahoe Climber wrote:
This is not a campfire

I think that it is a virtual campfire, courtesy of Chris Mac.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:38pm PT
You and nita are the ONLY posters to EVER say a positive thing about Crowley.

Funny, that isn't true either.
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
Who else?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
I can't help but think that most of us are pretty good people.

I may diasgree with Fattrad, but his offers of help and to pick me up at San Francisco International when I was coming home for my mom's funeral were genuine and sincere.

I also hooked up with Wild Bill on the Sunday before I left to come back here to Dublin, and he seems a real nice bloke.

Just two examples, and I am sure we can all provide our own examples of fellow SuperTacos.

Maybe it's just the internet that causes some to be negative, while in the flesh they are more positive.

Whatcha think Supertopians?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:51pm PT
Patrick, it's not so much a negative thing. It's just easier to have discussions (disagreements) in an internet forum because it keeps things clean. You can't yell, cut somebody off, or physically attack somebody. You just get to to the nitty gritty of the discussion at hand. Ya know?
cintune

climber
Penn's Woods
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:00pm PT
Cintune, that nails it right there.

Crowley, here's nita sticking up for you (not sure why):

"I happen to know who Crowley is, and he is not gw. I used to know his sweet old dog.... Crowley can be an ass,and anstigator,
but he can also be nice. He is also not a trust-funder...he works and he adores his son. "
MZiebell

Social climber
Prescott, AZ
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:02pm PT
Thanks Chris Mac!
handsome B

Gym climber
SL,UT
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:03pm PT
Patrick,
Do you know a Neal McQuaid in Dublin?




Anyway, the forum sucks right now, I hope a lot of you are climbing more than you appear to be. It's fun.



Standing Strong

Trad climber
offices & honkytonks
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
i don't mind non climbing topics when they're not politics and religion. on this forum there is a wonderful diversity of personalities who are knowledgeable on a wide range of topics, and a diversity of perspectives and life experience. that's helpful to many supertalko posters.


more than anything, i appreciate reading the real world wisdom of the older generation that posts here, and that i can ask about things like my truck slipping out of 4wd and get good advice when i don't really know who else to ask. i know there are car forums, but i trust this population the most.



maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
Wow! This is a wild thread and has been wandering around for a couple of years now. I appreciate what Chris' original intent was but I think this forum has evolved into a much more expansive and much greater thing. It'a a gathering ground for the climbing community of a type which the viral marketers would pull their nose hairs out to achieve. ST is a gathering of like minded people discussing what ever it is that's on their minds at the time and needs no external policing whatsoever. I think we do a pretty damn good job of it ourselves. Just like we would at the C4 campfire, we listen for a while then, if (when) someone gets out of line, we tell that person to back off. We argue passionately, pontificate, spew, spray and poke fun at our friends. Once in a while, while we're sitting around that fire swapping stories, some young kid will walk in ask about route beta or which cam we like best. That's fine, and just as in the campfire scene, the kid (sorry Kurt) will hear plenty of wise cracking and catch a lot of sh#t, but eventually one of the "old guard" will pull the kid aside and give him the best route beta possible or download better gear advice than he'll get and any shop on the planet.

We need to cherish, nuture and jealously guard what it is we've built here. If you want a forun that deals specifically with gear or routes or ethics or equalized anchors or ice tool, you can find plenty of active ones at rc.com, neclimbs.com or mountainproject.com. If, on the other hand, you want to join in on a freewheeling conversation about whatever it is that inspires at the moment us or pisses us off or has our curiosity going, welcome to the Taco.

Thanks for putting this together Chris.

Mal
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
Maldaly, very well said and a damn good analogy using the campfire. Couldn't have said it better. Cheers!
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
what are you doing with that rock handsome ? please explain ;-)

i tell ya, sometimes its like going to a fight and seeing a hockey game break out...

edit to add

"but i trust this population the most."

yeah - sorta the closest thing to a peer group i've found, so i value the opinions and input of many that are here...my 2 yen...
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
So....is Mal saying that Supertopo is like Seinfeld?

"That's gold, Jerry. Gold...."
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
It's doomed to crash under the weight of a handfull of asssholes.

Greener pastures are a 'comin...... See ya!
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
Believe it or not, I never saw a single session of Seinfeld but I do know that it was (is?) one of the longest running and most loved shows on the tube.

Let's not f*uck it up.

Mal
ha-ha

climber
location
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
is the harding slot still wet?

Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
I agree with Mal, though I do sometimes wish that SuperTopia had a way of voting people off the campfire. Or perhaps throwing them in. In-person interaction has built in governing mechanisms, but less so the electronic kind.
monolith

Trad climber
Albany,CA
Feb 22, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
I think SuperTopo should purchase one of the better forum software packages. vBulletin is only $165 and gives you ignore functions,quote functions, timed edit, avatars and many other functions.

Someone would have to write a script to import the current database though.
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:22pm PT


thanks to our forum host as well. I've hooked up with some bros I haven't seen in years, tenative plans with a few others as well.



Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
Most Usenet newsreaders had a killfile. That's one thing these web forums beg for.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:39pm PT
The chalkboard cartoon up-thread was right on. It amazes me how nasty people can be when anonymous. Maybe the solution is to require posting under real names--no pseudonyms.
Mal
Murf

climber
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
The fact of the matter is that rockclimbing BB's have an seasonal ebb and flow. Even before its ultimate demise (although I hear some denizens still are holding on) wreck.climbing would get pretty lean during this time of year. Those of us in warmer parts of the country forget that many people don't do a lot of climbing this time of year.

-TM
Dingus Milktoast

climber
NorCal
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:53pm PT
"Should I do a TR?"

I give you a 31% chance of doing that.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
Your wish is DaftRat's command. See "Sending the Choss", which may be the first climbing thread he's started.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Feb 22, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
i'll throw some more support Crowley's way. i've never met him, and don't think i've read any of his posts, but he is annoying the exact population that this thread was started to address. anyone pissing off the pundits that badly is a good thing.

who would have guessed, the way to get LEB to leave was to add the same inane chatter to the OT wankery that s/he adds to climbing topics.
L

climber
The City of Lost Angels
Feb 22, 2007 - 06:55pm PT
Wild Bill--You (L) and nita are the ONLY posters to EVER say a positive thing about Crowley.

Chiloe--Funny, that isn't true either.

Wild Bill--Who else?



Uh, 'cuse me WB, but uh...he's right there in front of your eyeballs, friend. Missed a few other things, have you? Too bent on your petty vengeance to see the whole picture maybe? Kind of like the photo of the cross-eyed mentally handicapped kid you posted and ridiculed...maybe you're missing something here, too.
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Feb 22, 2007 - 07:08pm PT
??

I give up - WHO are you referring to that's "right in front of" me?

L, you seem like a decent sort, but it is you whose vision is clouded here. Crowley behaves like a jerk on ST, every day and with almost every post. And every day, someone else besides me or the other usual Crowley haters comes forward to complain about him. No one but you and nita have come forward to defend him.

Anyway, I'm done with you and Crowley. For the sake of ST I'll try to ignore his insulting lameness.
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2007 - 10:48pm PT
hmmmmmmmmmm

right when i am about to whack a mole... someone makes a post like maldaly and it seem like everything is cool. this is why i dont moderate the forum... i dont know what to do. seems like over time the forum goes through its highs and lows. maybe it would be better if i banned some folks... but there is always the chance the you just give someone the juice they need to become REALLY annoying.

i guess ideally you could have your own personal forum filter... and not have to ready posts by the people you think are just spraying uncontrollably... but not sure if that is so practical.

overall, i think its best to:

a) ignore the lame off topic posts
b) ignore the lame posters and just respond to the interesting folks. i think most annoying posters are just looking for attention

maybe i am better at this because i have been looking at this thing forever... and now have a pretty thick skin.
L

climber
The City of Lost Angels
Feb 22, 2007 - 11:06pm PT
Chris,

Can certainly see your dilemma, but Maldaly is right. This place is great because of the odd personalities, the fireworks, the interesting, controvertial and off-beat topics. Not always pleasant, and sometimes incredibly irritating--but then, so is life. So is climbing. And I'm sure flying has its moments of unadulterated unpleasantness.

Once in a while poo gets flung...and then some hysterical song gets posted and we're all wetting our pants laughing. Check out the "Post Your Art" and "Post Your Pet" threads. Talk about a great community of folks willing to share. It's amazing.

And it's all because of you.
Thank you so very much.
Sewellymon

climber
.....in a single wide......
Feb 22, 2007 - 11:24pm PT
Yea what Happie said,

“Super Topo is gold, Jerry. Gold!”

In recent times, Tarbuster came down the rabbit hole and spiced things up. Ditto Peter Haan, JB, Jello and Oli and Warbler .. all those Stonemaster threads. …

Um, what was the question?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 23, 2007 - 12:01am PT
CM, I have not been a "topian" for long, and it took me a bit to figure out what I could contribute to the forum. At first, my political interest lead me to be riled up and fire back--but then I realized that I got more satisfaction by taking a positive stance towards posts. Sure, I sometimes want to go off (maybe I have), but at the end of the day, I still have to go to sleep with my conscience. You are right, there are highs and lows (even in 6 months), and we must realize that internetting is an evolving, unpredictable "force"--maybe a modification here or there is in order, but one thing is certain, you can't choose your kid's mate or in-laws and in the end, order is realigned and ebbs and flows with the seasons (and characters).

When Montuckans are in communication with Valley Rats and Cal Jammers you know that the "cat is out of the bag", and the diversity which we all share must be embraced and tolerated just as those pesky and loving "in-laws".
nita

climber
chico ca
Feb 23, 2007 - 12:55am PT
It's really not that hard to debate with respect. No name calling would be pleasant.

Thank you Maldaly and C Mac. for your thoughts. n.t.
Anastasia

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Feb 23, 2007 - 01:14am PT
I think banning a person with an explanation if they are "extremely" out of line will not be a bad idea. (Especially if they are threatening others.)
We can also help a person that is getting "really weird" by banning them for a day to allow them to sober up, get sane and save themselves. (Though I would also save such action if this behavior is extreme and degenerative to others."

Yet monitoring on any level beyond that would make it uninhabitable to most climbing persona. We are an unusual odd bunch and this site reflects this aspect very well.
I think we as a group need to argue, be offensive and controversial about everything. It is also interesting to see how many of us both think and "not think" about certain things. How diverse we are and what commonalities we do share. It is fascinating to observe and participate with the dialogues of this forum.

Most of the negative behavior I think is actually good for us. (I would just like to prevent actual threats and personal attacks that might transfer into the physical plane. It sometimes sounds too real for comfort.)
WBraun

climber
Feb 23, 2007 - 01:25am PT
Chris

Think you should ban that WBraun guy. He's really annoying to me.

I can never figure him out. I can never make heads or tails from where he's coming from. And then there's that moon thing he's got going.
Standing Strong

Trad climber
offices & honkytonks
Feb 23, 2007 - 01:44am PT
i have a very hard time believing that some people would not abuse a flagging system.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 23, 2007 - 07:37am PT
I agree with what Maldaly posted, and thanks again Chris Mac for this forum.


As far as ignore buttons, software and such, there is already one on the forum, or should I say a number on the forum and its free - us. We all have brains and should exercise them.






Yeah Werner, that WBraun guy is getting to me as well. ;-)

John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Feb 23, 2007 - 11:36am PT
Malcolm hit the nail right on the head ...

This is a great place to kick things around and I wouldn't like it to be changed or sanitised in any way. The mix of legends and joe blow's is what makes it such a unique place that other forums would die for.

There are plenty of other places to post specific questions about gear, routes, etc. The difference here is that you may actually get a response from someone who not only climbed the route but may of actually put up the first ascent.

Thanks for Chris for providing this feature and keeping it real. We don't need no damn pretty icons!
kev

climber
CA
Feb 23, 2007 - 11:54am PT
So there are probably four larges groups here.

1) Those who don't care (withing reason) what's posted here

2) Those who want only climbing stuff

3) Those who like the mix of stuff

4) Those who really want mostly the non climbing stuff.

There is a way to keep everyone happy. Simply add a box which the user must check when entering the a msg labeling it climbing or not climbing related. Additionally add a switch that the forum reader can select that allows them to see only climbing related stuff, non climbing related stuff, or all posts. This allows everyone to have what they want. Also it would be pretty easy to self police this. The ammount of coding needed to do this is little (hell I'd even do it)...

What do you think??

maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 23, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
kev,
One of the beauties of this forum is the surprise you get when the thread drifts from a route beta request, to first ascent stories, to annecdotes of the personal hygiene of the belayer, to reminiscing about the celebratory bottle of wine that was busted out at the summit. I love this place because you never know where you're going to end up. It's kind of like listening to Trey Anastasio instead of the Allman Brothers. They both take you on an incredible musical journey but when listening to the Allman Brothers you know that you'll end up comfortably back where you started. With Trey, on the other hand, you never know where you're going, let alone where you've been. Sometimes I'm in the mood for wandering around with Trey and sometimes just crankin' up the volume for another session of Hot Lanta is the shitz.

This is not an easy forum to participate in. You need a sense of adventure coupled with a bit of recklessness and some humor. If you can't handle being poked fun of; if you are afraid to smack down someone who gets in your face, or if you if you like straight, level trails and jug hauls in the gym, then this forum probably isn't for you.

Chris, please don't mess with this place.

Mal
L

climber
The City of Lost Angels
Feb 23, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
Ditto, Mal. You da Man!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Feb 23, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
Chris, don't change a thing. What you've created here is a thing of beauty. Actually, it's the people here that make it so beautiful but you gave them the 'forum' to do it. Thanks.
Dickly

Trad climber
Utah
Jul 28, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
can we get back to sushi now? I like sushi. nekkid women too.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 28, 2007 - 01:37pm PT
Why bump a long dead thread and do nothing but suggest we get back to something else?
Blinny

Trad climber
NWMontana
Jul 28, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
Ron. . . you click that little number to the right of the thread and it takes you to the last page. . .

:-)

eKat
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jul 28, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
Thank you, Chris. I think you are taking the right steps. Some won't like it, but most will, I believe. It will be a better place. People can not only share campfire stories, history, news, etc., but they can sound off and be funny and sometimes purposefully silly or stupid, but those who have nothing but malice, profanity, contention for contention's sake, and similar kinds of agendas in mind can be sent along their way...
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jul 28, 2007 - 03:10pm PT
I haven't checked to see if this has been said before, but maybe you could develop an easy method so that when a thread is started clearly for no other reason than to be offensive, you can prevent it from being "bumped." That way it will fade away out of sight quickly... The person will have had their "say," but it won't have to keep coming up in everyone's faces.
nature

climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 28, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
Pat - this thread died along time ago (original post was 2005!). Check the dates. Nothing was done about it because nothing is going to be done about it.

Fatrad is right (WTF?!?!?! I just said that?!?!?!?) - this place is near perfect and it ain't gonna change.

Edit: Furthermore, keep in mind that any modification to this forum requires programming. It ain't that broken around here so there's really no reason for Chris to invest in having the programming done.

Dicky - what's up with the sushi comment? Do the sushi threads bother you? just wondering....


Double Edit: Pat - what you may not realize is things were a lot worse around here not that long ago. In a relative sense you should be happy with the way things are. It's pretty darn tame all things considered.
stich

Trad climber
Denver, Colorado
Jul 28, 2007 - 08:29pm PT
Pat, really, you get used to the noise after a while. Just keep posting the good stuff and it'll attract the right element. Each thread is like its own little world.
Raydog

Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Jul 28, 2007 - 11:01pm PT
for the past couple months I only started threads that were climbing/outdoor related - no problem. I started a parody thread because of all the silly threads and the political stuff - quite a bit. Whatever the game, I'm happy to play - sometimes it seems like a lot of nonsense - but then it evolves into some really worthwhile climbing history stuff/trip report or similar. I kinda tend to agree with Mal and stich, though, overall.
dave

climber
Earth
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community.

it is now clearly a place where it is ok for:
sometimes over half the threads are political, not climbing
photos of dead people are posted
sexual photos are posted
personal attacks are as common as posting info intended to help people out

so, i am going to propose a few things for cleaning up the forum:

1) for a few weeks i am going to relatively little except delete the really offensive stuff. but i am going to ask that when people see stuff that violates the forum rules THEY NOT RESPOND TO IT IN THE POSTS. Instead, send me an email. hopefully the offensive posts will get burried if nobody responds to them.

2) if that doesnt work, we will get two forums. one for climbing related stuff and one for non-climbing related stuff. if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users.


3) all along the way, I'll be using the whack amole technique that other have suggested and seems to be relative effective. so that it is not a surprise to people, read the next part carefully: I do not have time to warn people to stop breaking the forum rules. every once in a while ill give warnings, but for the most part i won't. i like to spend my time climbing, not being a forum cop.

thanks in advance for making supertopo a great resource for climbers.

May be time to revisit this idea Chris. I'm not for censorship but maybe if this is supposed to be a climbing forum then some oversight to keeping the forum as you initially intended wouldn't hurt. This place is becoming (or has been) a disgrace. More stupid ass things concernig politics, old age problems, fund raisers, etc...

the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community.

Which it mostly is not...

thanks in advance for making supertopo a great resource for climbers.

Which it is a little bit...but mostly is not...
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Agreed... It's getting harder to sift through the junk to get to the quality
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
The latest forum meltdown was bizarre.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Don't get me wrong, but I thought the forum was the campfire and the other
tabs were for climber info.

Half the fun of climbing was sitting around the campfires, BSing,
Laughing,telling jokes, etc etc.

IMHO, ST viewings would drop off if this forum was just dedicated to climbing topics.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
I greatly respect the goal of forum with minimal moderation and subdivision, with the expectation that participants self-regulate their contribution. It's a worthy high road to be on.

However, it just doesn't seem like 'self-regulation' works here...as mentioned, there's a shiteload of OT topics (waaaaaay OT & or needlessly repetitive), and each person seems to feel it's there gawd-given right to post anything they want, and if it undermines the overall intent of this site & forum, eff 'em.

There's an awful lot of great content here that reflects all that is good about the climbing community...sadly, it too often reflects a lot of the self-oriented negativity, too.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
As much as we all whine about climbing vs everything else, the climbing stuff still falls away like dead leaves much of the time.

It will not be the same if Chris holds the reins too tightly...
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
The comic cragsman photoshop jobs are ALWAYS relevant to something!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
I'm all for off-topic stuff and funny/silly threads. But it's getting to where people won't just comment in a thread, they respond with a new thread.

It's just attention grabbing- the boob thing is an example- there are like 20 threads about the same thing.
Some Random Guy

climber
San Franpsycho (a.k.a. a token of my extreme)
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
damn boobies! they'll get ya every time
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
It's just attention grabbing- the boob thing is an example- there are like 20 threads about the same thing.

Actually there was only one until t*r had her post-feminist meltdown. I can only imagine what Kathleen Hanna or Gloria Steinham would say.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
So the boobs got Nuked. BFD, life goes on
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
+1 for On Topic, and Off topic.

Maybe a Lost and Found?
Partner finder?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Chris Mac, please keep it as it was/is. When I first started posting, what back in 2005 I think, I was being reactive in some instances, and then I hopefully learned.

I still believe your forum works fine, perhaps some exceptions, but most posters seem level headed.

Okay, a lot of times climbing threads take a back seat, so we just have to keeping bumping them up.

As for the political posts, well, if indeed if it is an online campfire, well, then let's just hope people keep their posts civil.

I agree, that some people, probably with no ill well or hard feelings, just their emotions or biases, may post some crap, I am sure that I may have, I hope not, but...

It is still the best climbing forum around. And I regularly visit the others. RC, IrishClimbing.ie, UK Climbing, Mountain project, SummitPost, and sometimes pay a visit to other forums Cascade climbers, etc...

And none are as fun as the Taco Stand.

But I still think the Taco Stand is the best. Self-control by some people may be needed, okay, but who am I to judge?
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Don't get me wrong, but I thought the forum was the campfire and the other
tabs were for climber info.

Half the fun of climbing was sitting around the campfires, BSing,
Laughing,telling jokes, etc etc.

IMHO, ST viewings would drop off if this forum was just dedicated to climbing topics.

I believe Chris started the site(and forum) as a tool to disseminate climbing info. At least that was my take on it.


I greatly respect the goal of forum with minimal moderation and subdivision, with the expectation that participants self-regulate their contribution. It's a worthy high road to be on.

However, it just doesn't seem like 'self-regulation' works here...as mentioned, there's a shiteload of OT topics (waaaaaay OT & or needlessly repetitive), and each person seems to feel it's there gawd-given right to post anything they want, and if it undermines the overall intent of this site & forum, eff 'em.

There's an awful lot of great content here that reflects all that is good about the climbing community...sadly, it too often reflects a lot of the self-oriented negativity, too.

agree 100%


It will not be the same if Chris holds the reins too tightly...

hopefully, it will return to what it once was.

p.s. been here since 2002, so I remember the good times
p.p.s it seems to me the maturity level of the posters has been reduced
I thought we were adults, but guess I was wrong.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them.

I hope similar standards apply to people who hijack art threads (boobs and such) with pictures of dreamy hunks from Teen Magazine.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
I am a very opinionated person, and I do not tend to contribute to many forums, perhaps once in a while to the BBC News/Sports forum, or the Irish Times forum, the Taco Stand has been the forum I seek out.

Though as a journalist, I have always tried to be objective, bar columns, editorials and commentaries, and I sincerely believe I have succeeded, unless some editor changes my copy... yeah it has happened more than I like.

At first on SuperTopo, I got into some flame wars, about guns and about what county grows the best grass (joking on that last one), about well...

I am 56 and since becoming a full-time carer for a lovely woman, I have sort of mellowed. At 56, mellowed, finally. Hmmm, I wonder if I have.

But for the most part, I like most of the threads and posts on the Taco Stand. I may have been or perhaps still guilty, but I just would like us all to keep the posts civil and not flame wars.

But then I have always been an idealist and not a realist.

Rock on.


And, while I have lived abroad for a number of years, I still have a rich American heritage and proud of it.

ROCK ON
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
I'm all for off-topic stuff and funny/silly threads. But it's getting to where people won't just comment in a thread, they respond with a new thread.

It's just attention grabbing- the boob thing is an example- there are like 20 threads about the same thing.

Spot on! Our tendency toward multiple threads on the same topics crowds out the diversity that the first page deserves. To use ontheedge's example, it seems incongruous to me to nuke the "boobs" thread, but leave all the resultant threads intact. I wish there were some way that CMac could combine redundant threads. That, alone, would free up a lot more first page space.

John
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
I know that Chris has siad in the past that he is opposed to having an off topic forum, but I think it's time.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Change nothing.

The wild west feel is what I come to ST forum for.

Nothing is as boring as a "Climbing topics only" site, or a Partners page etc.... Just go look at MP to see what I mean.

If anything, boot the idiots who "go over the line".

CM or whoever moderates, needs to draw that line and not back down.

Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Start a WILD West Tab,
and Hire a Sheriff.
I hear T*R is looking for a job.

;-)
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
I had to check my browser just now to make sure I wasn't on rc.com. whew.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
This is all so funny. I did not realize this was a bumped thread - thought it was all new posts at first. This place is pretty awesome. I hardly look at much else on the net in terms of forums - this is were it's happening. We are in the midst of the Golden Age of Climbing Forums. What attracts me to here is the way subjects are all mixed up. It's more lifelike, more organic - has a more natural prioritizatioin going on. There's a search function if somebody wants to do some tuning. There's more to climbing than climbing. Viva ST!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
The forum is instantaneously a better place with that weird chick - who doesn't even climb - deactivated. How many user names has she used - five? Six?

At any rate, Chris and RJ are remarkably restrained when it comes to banning or deactivating people. You have to be incredibly annoying to get kicked out of a forum that is virtually unmoderated. However when you cross the line, you pay the price. Good on them for showing some common sense. We don't need this place cluttered with thousands [thirty thousand? fifty thousand?] non-climbing posts.

For the record, I remain strongly in favour of some sort of division between "climbing stuff" and "non-climbing stuff", and once again volunteer my time to split it up.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Here we go again...
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
We need a little anarchy - the world is coming to an end anyway. Yeah, they got the dates wrong the last couple of times but it's coming!
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
For all the BS/OT that seems to get posted (most of which I never bother to click on -- remember that IS an option), it seems that things are fine the way they are.

It also seems that when someone gets way out of line they get banned.

rc.com is always an alternative for those of you who are so bothered by OT posts. Though, last I looked in there, they still have stupid flame wars -- just they are ostensibly climbing related flame wars. LOL
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Limiting threads strictly to climbing topics would eliminate a lot of the laughs which compel me to waste entirely too much time here. There’s some good, intelligent discussion in some of the OT stuff - as well as a load of idiotic drivel.

I’d say keep the variety, but just go ahead and whack anything as offensive or disrespectful as dead bodies, triple x pornography or personal attacks which don’t make a point. Above all (or below all) whack the flame wars, of which there are some really ugly examples in this thread and are a waste of everybody’s time, as well as sullying the image of climbers.

But in the end it’s your forum and your time, Chris. Do what you have to, and thanks.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
^^^^^^^^+1^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
boobs.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
A lot of us don't post much anymore because the OT stuff pushes everything climbing (or remotely climbing) related so far past the first page.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Fossil and Tami

+1 and 2

Don't change CM, the diversity is what keeps the Taco Stand, well, special.

Check the other sites out. No anarchy. Rule ST.

And, it is a big relief for me. Oops, Am I displaying too much?

I still climb, not like I used to, but I still have my dreams.

Actually Lois wasn't that bad (sometimes) for a non-climber, she gave me some good advice on medical training and being a nurse practitioner (didn't happen). And Jeff the tool wasn't that bad, offered me help for my mom's funeral.

I think I have won the EuroMillions tonight. Whoo weeee. €30m. Okay Jen and I will move to Grenada and I will pay St George's University to enroll me (endowment of some sort) in the joint MD/Veterinary program.

And a new rack of gear for (most) Supertopians.

And then I woke up.

Chris, you have a good site... an unique site, don't make it like the others.

The goal, just bump the good threads to the top, climbing threads or otherwise, worthwhile threads. The saying is that sh#t floats to the top, but as Taco Standers, we can change that.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
I never looked at this as a "climbing" forum but rather a forum were climbers (our clan) can discuss anything and everything. That's the glory of the site - that it's not strictly beholden to describing face moves and cam placements. Supertopo is not a surrogate for the Climbing Mag. It's just a curiosity and a brain dump and repository for whatever is interesting. Since tastes differ, you'll not like everything, but placing restriction on the content to maintain some imagined editorial agenda is to cut the legs off this fandango, IMO.

JL
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
I like climbers and all the stupid stuff climbers do and say. Another vote for "no change."


BTW, what's so special about the first page?

Click "next" if you don't see anything you like, there's always more!




Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Hey John/Largo, plus 1.

And DMT and Dave Kos, yeah, another plus one.


EDIT

We all have our own problems.

I have a lovely partner who at 61 suffers from dementia (I clean the bedroom up, next day, clothes all over).

But what the Taco Stand gives me is a release, friendships, and memories.

ST is special to me, it is an outlet, some of you I know (around C4 campfires), some I have even climbed with, and some, I don't know but can identify with.

ChrisMac, keep it unique, what sh#t floats to the top will be flushed down the toilet by most of us.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:42pm PT



I think it should be tit for a tat
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
"Tit for a tat"

I must have a different definition that you do.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
More boobs less climbing!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
It'd be one thing if there were any actual climbing going on.

But apparently there isn't.

Want proof?

The last three posters to the "Occupy Supertopo with Climbing Info" thread had nothing more interesting to contribute than "bump".

That's what you'd apparently get if this forum were limited to discussion of climbing topics.

Count your blessings for politics, religion, and Bear 46, cause if not for that, all you'd have here that's climbing related is "bump" "bump" "bump".
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
BS on the Boobs!

We need more evidence of Balls of Steel.

Here, more of this to get you all motivated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aXR8Df_Bml0
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 22, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Tatted tits now THAT would be a THREAD!

I'm still not going to post pictures of my boobs. (Yes, the rib tats come up onto the underboob)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
(Yes, the rib tats come up onto the underboob)


Careful there, someone will be on you for talking porn and objectifying women.....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Sorry folks, I guess I take life too seriously. Remember, it is five to eight hours ahead of most of you.

Mental jet lag.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
The future of this forum will be swapping coupons for deals on Geritol and trading tips for combating demetia.

Cause it sure as hell ain't a future filled with climbing.

Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
I climbed 5 days last week, but it wasn't photo op friendly.
So shoot me.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
Elcapinyourazz, I disagree. A lot of the older Taco Standers have children/grandchildren and such that are learning to climb. So if you want Geritol go to the AARP website.

The Taco Stand, in my opinion, has longevity. Perhaps you and I do not. But don't diss those of us who contribute. Yeah, at 56, I can't climb what I could at 26. Big deal. IMO this is a forum for people who have a common understanding and joy of climbing in life.

We cannot turn back the years, but we can rejoice, and for the younger ones, perhaps some more understanding.

Why such negativity? You wouldn't happen to be partners with Ken M, would you (okay mean on my part, but...)


And goddamn it, why can't some of you people reveal your real names. What are you afraid of?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
don't diss those of us who contribute

And what, pray tell, have you contributed with actual climbing content? Just to be clear, mentioning that there is a quarry nearby your home does not constitute "climbing content".

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
People, I am trying my best to be a good carer for a lovely woman with a medical condition. I hope that I do not come across as an a**hole.

I was not a top climber in the Valley, more like second, probably third tier.

But I think this forum does not deserve some of the comments people have posted.

I find the Taco Stand refreshing, intriguing and sad at times.

Perhaps I am wrong, but one or two people have said (or have indicated by their remarks) the forum is on its dying legs. Because some of us are old farts, or whatever.

Well then people, go elsewhere. Go to whatever forum you wish to express on on. Obviously, several posters do not like this forum. Well, then leave and find one to your liking.

There are new generations of climbers, many brought up by Supertopians, that deserve the richness, history and variety of such a forum. Not negative BS.

So just leave if you don't like it.

ChrisMac may have this forum to help sell books, but he has also kept it open for all of us, with little moderation. Perhaps some of us could use some moderation in our posts.

If you don't like it, don't contribute and leave. Good riddance.

Thanks Chris Mac, I like this forum. An honest forum for the most part, with some BS on the side, perhaps even some of my own.

EDIT

And one more tidbit...

I may be suffering from depression, certainly stress, being a full-time carer, so take with a grain of salt what I write.

Best wishes to all for 2013.

Cheers

Patrick
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Don't change a thing. The line, and consquences, seem clear enough. All the craziness and randomness mixed with the climbing is what keeps the interest and energy level up.

There is junk and gems and everthing in between. Just like life. Roll with it!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
And what, pray tell, have you contributed with actual climbing content? Just to be clear, mentioning that there is a quarry nearby your home does not constitute "climbing content".

Correct Elcapinyourazz, not much.

Just an affinity with fellow climbers.

I'd love to say I climbed the Cassin Ridge, or Walkers Spur on the Grand Jorasses, or Cho Oyu and Ama Dablam (my dreams).

I'd love to give trip reports on how I climbed in Patagonia. But I can't. Because I haven't. But I have been a climber for some 42 years. Not the best, not top notch, but it is my love.

Elcapinyourazz, if you cannot understand me, it is more your loss than mine. Just keep climbing to what your heart says and of course, good solids anchors. Seriously. I am not dissing you, but you seem to think not so much of me. Fine,that is your choice. I do not wish you ill. Be safe dude.

and there may be some climbs in the Quarry that you may...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
There is no future.
There is only now.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
i don't know, i posted a topic late last night and now it is on page 4,

my transformer post at the audio forum has been on page 1 for a week,

place moves quick=advertising $$$,

if it ain't broke, jus sayin....

is there a button you can click to see how many people are online?

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
WELD_IT was young.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Good for them Anders. That just may prove a certain person wrong about this forum 'dying'. Like I wrote earlier, there are a new generation of climbers, and let's hope this forum helps them learn and develop. And enjoy the banter without the negative BS some people write.

And be able to see through such BS.

Anders, I have not been to the Rockies, Himalayas or Andes lately, just a little old crag nearby, just a local quarry as one poster puts it, that is my input on climbing content so such a person says.

Well, I'll post up my next trip to Everest (North Face) to shut this person up.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
I think everybody should act differently.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
+1 ^^^
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
I never looked at this as a "climbing" forum but rather a forum were climbers (our clan) can discuss anything and everything.

Don't know how I became part of the clan or when I first I realized it. Climbing influenced me on a very deep level, and for some reason I consider climbers to be my peers and see things the way I do, even if they are expressing totally opposite views on some subject. (guns, boobs or whatever) I have no idea why but its something that stuck a long time ago.

There is definitely a campfire environment here and I wouldnt trade it for reading climbing magazine. I'm also more interested in stories about some gumbies learning how to rappel on El Cap, than about some famous name dude and the incredible things he can do. Epics, heroic failures, near death experiences, total screw-ups, gripping scary stories, that kind of thing is more interesting.

Also, whatever the forum is supposed to be about, what it's really about is YOSEMITE rock climbing.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
well look at a typical outing,

one guy climbing, one cig smokin beer drinkin guy belaying,

and 5 others sittin round jus a jawin to pass the time till they rope up,


madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
For me, at least, the "off topic" stuff is easy to filter out if I don't find it interesting. And the fact that a particular thread is "non-climbing" on a climbing forum makes it "on topic" for me for one simple reason:

I have a lot more prima facie respect for people here, even the ones with which I strongly disagree, than the "main street" blow-hards. We're blow-hards here too. But it's largely a collection of blow-hards that do (or have done) things that make their opinions matter to me more than those of non-climbers.

Climbers have a certain core perspective that is quite different from the fundamentally risk-averse thinking that drives most people. For me, that core perspective makes even "off topic" threads very much on topic. I would really miss hearing climbers' perspectives of a whole range of subjects.

The fact that it's a climbers' forum makes threads "climbers' politics," "climbers' science," "climbers' religion," etc. That matters to me, and the eclectic mix of topics is appealing. Again, easy to filter out that which doesn't interest me.

Regarding abusive posting, etc., I'm all for banning real offenders on a case by case basis. Of course, the lines are hard to draw. Some very respected climbers would be banned for, for example, defamation, etc. Having spent my share of time on the receiving end, I would still say to most complainers: "Grow a thicker skin, and buck up." We're climbers, after all. We can't take it?

All due respect, Chris, and I mean that... There's little to fix here, imho. Please don't let a few squeaky wheels ruin a unique online environment. It's (mostly) all good.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
Well spoken, Madbolter.

I do wonder though if setting up a separate tab for OT posts will allow easier access to those people who just want to keep their focus on the climbing, while also allowing for the climber discussions of politics, religions, and current events to remain lively.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Oh and as to purpose of this web site? ITS TO SELL GUIDEBOOKS YOU F*#KING MORONS.

you can call names if you like Craig, but your answer is only partially correct.
If Chris just wanted to sell climbing books, he would just be another Chesslers.

But, Chris has also written trip reports, and is now doing gear reviews.

ask yourself why Ammon, E, or T2 don't contribute much. I know that E spends all is free time climbing, but when he does post, he laments the lack of climbing threads.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Yes, I am guilty as anybody in not contributing climbing threads.

Jeez, I wish I could do a TR about Ben Nevis ice, or Chamonix (both places I have been but little climbing). It is for the climbing camaraderie that I like.

But some people have tried to shoot me down, and I do not need that. So I am only climbing at HVS/5.9 level nowadays, when the weather permits.

But I have tried to keep my flames at the lowest possible heating point.

I guess I should just shut my mouth and lurk from now on. It's safer, considering how some posters can be mean.

I have enough on my plate than to be judged by some chancers.
Radish

Trad climber
SeKi, California
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
All my cyber climbing buddies are here and mostly its easier to read the World's latest headlines here because they are generally more update, specially localy. There is also some sage climbing advice and history to be had from a talent pool of climbing legends bar none! I like it all but maybe there should be a ratio of like 4 climbing to 1 OT?? And, I love reading all the Trip Reports, its lurker dues!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
madbolter1,

+1.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
The First Amendment rules at any campfire, which this is. With that said, one cannot yell "fire" in a crowded hall either. CM has done a great job keeping moderation to a minimum so as to keep this place relevant, free and curious. I ignore threads that do not interest me, as others should. Just like wandering around the campground - leave those fires where the talk or music is not your style, and chime in at those that are. There are social limits to acceptability of posts, which reach toward yelling "fire" in a crowded hall, but they are rare and blatant. Racism, I think, is one of them. Let CM make the call.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
i reserve your right to defend my right to agree with you if you open your mouth to say something stupid i'm going to agree with before i think about it...is that ok ? ...wait, i mean my right to disagree with your right to...
D'Wolf

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
We're looking at this all wrong. We don't need and "OT Tab" for non-climbing related topics - we need a "Climbing Tab" for climbing related topics.

Leave the forum as it is; don't relegate the 90% content to a seperate tab - relegate the 10% (e.g. climbing topics) to a seperate tab.

LilaBiene

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
I've been thinking about this since someone posted a while back asking whether he should allow his son to have an account. Tough call. I'm teaching the muppet about climbing, and we have a lot of fun tooling around in the Trip Reports. If I'm going to peruse the forum (which I've admittedly been doing less lately because of the preponderance of really annoying thread topics), I have to make sure the muppet can't see my screen because I never know what's going to pop up.

That being said, I love irreverence. Always have. And there is so much humor, history and climbing content with both on this site, that this is the place I always come back to...it's like home. This site is in technicolor, whereas the other climbing sites I've visited are in black and white (and boooooooring). This virtual campfire is lively, dynamic and current, and at times goes off course...but that's real, and in part what makes the site compelling.

Could the campfire use a little less bullying? For sure. But I think that ultimately the Tacoans will have to self-censor if they want it to survive as a place where all are welcome, and where their stories will be shared around the campfire for generations to come.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 22, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
As online communities grow, the conventions that used to keep them in check break down. It's inevitable. Happened on usenet and countless forums. When that happens, the need for moderation (admin, user or both) of some kind increases. The sites that handle growth well usually employ a reputation system of some kind that leads to increased site privileges. I think the stack exchange sites have done a particularly good job of designing their rep system, along with a liberal sprinkling of gamification.

I think the S/N ratio of the Supertopo forum would improve tremendously with a user rep system of some kind along with peer voting of posts/threads. Designing and implementing that is a non-trivial task though.

Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky (co-founders of Stack Exchange have both written extensively about online communities, here's one from Jeff:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/12/the-organism-will-do-what-it-damn-well-pleases.html
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
The First Amendment rules at any campfire, which this is.

Nope. Any land owner can kick you off their land if they don't like what you say.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT...

Oooooo ..someone got thrown in the campfire..

Ok boys, knock it off now.. Here's a beer, on second thought why don't you go sleep it off.

This has been happening for millenia in real life.

happens here too.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
The First Amendment rules at any campfire, which this is.

Sorry Former for not being more specific. I wasn't thinking of private property camp fires, I was thinking of a C4 fire. I'm unfamiliar with private KOA rules, etc. Please bring us up to speed on 1st amendment speech restrictions for KOA, etc. CM seems to follow the C4 rule. Am I off base here? ST has been pretty much like a public place (Thx CM). Do you want that to change? I hope not.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
On a positive note in the forum future I will be running side bar ads for my new business.
Burkha, Habit and Shroud r Us.
Free Glock 9mm semis for the first 100 customers.
And I promise nary a boob in sight.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#285595
photo not found
Missing photo ID#280401
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Please, no Off-Topic tab! That would be the death-Nell to this forum.


I think the S/N ratio of the Supertopo forum would improve tremendously with a user rep system of some kind along with peer voting of posts/threads. Designing and implementing that is a non-trivial task though.


Last time this came up, the idea was floated for some sort of Thumbs Up / Down voting for favorable threads. That would be boss--then we could have a tab for Highest Ranked threads.


My bet, the BOOBs thread would survive at the top for a long time...
Ropeboy

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
Nuke the stuff Chris. I'm tired of all the rants and bickering about non climbing subjects.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Sorry Former for not being more specific. I wasn't thinking of private property camp fires, I was thinking of a C4 fire. I'm unfamiliar with private KOA rules, etc. Please bring us up to speed on 1st amendment speech restrictions for KOA, etc. CM seems to follow the C4 rule. Am I off base here? ST has been pretty much like a public place (Thx CM). Do you want that to change? I hope not.

CM doesn't follow the C4 rule. There are limits. CM's public intention (from 2005) to delete whatever he deems is offensive and ban users who violate his rules.

for a few weeks i am going to relatively little except delete the really offensive stuff...


... we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users.


3) all along the way, I'll be using the whack amole technique that other have suggested and seems to be relative effective. so that it is not a surprise to people, read the next part carefully: I do not have time to warn people to stop breaking the forum rules. every once in a while ill give warnings, but for the most part i won't. i like to spend my time climbing, not being a forum cop.

...If you find posts to the forum that are objectionable, please email us to let us know. Although we can't control the content posted to the forum, we will make an effort to delete objectionable or offensive posts as we become aware of them.

I don't care so much if ST changes; I welcome the site owner to do whatever he wants with his website. If it does, I'll go find something else to entertain myself.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 22, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
CM doesn't follow the C4 rule.

Yeah, but close enough. I think we agree. Keep as-is.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Last time this came up, the idea was floated for some sort of Thumbs Up / Down voting for favorable threads. That would be boss--then we could have a tab for Highest Ranked threads.

I would advocate for something more sophisticated, but, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Harness the collective opinion of the community and you'll increase the S/N ratio. I don't know if any of you have spent any time in any of the Stack Overflow venues, (and this forum is not a perfect fit for that mold as it is more chaotic by nature) but it's quite effective.

I noticed a couple of years ago that most of my technical leaning google inquiries were answered by one of the Stack Exchange sites. That prodded me to join and find out how they were getting such a consistently high S/N ratio. I have to say, the system they designed and continually evolve is impressive.

I think a similar system for the supertopo forum would increase the quality of the material significantly.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 02:32am PT
Chris don't follow much. That guy leads. If you know him, you know his style. I rather admire his mostly hands off approach. I can dig it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:06am PT
At present, thread "popularity" operates as a pretty "free market economy." Active threads percolate to the top, while less active threads are displaced.

There are three primary issues here, I believe, that are keeping strictly climbing-related threads from not percolating better. The first is pretty self-evident upon reflection. The second is theoretical and bears some investigation. The third derives from self-reflection, yet I believe that it is virtually self-evident upon reflection of thread activity.

1) Most climbing threads provide "benefits" without active response. Read and enjoy the thread (especially the pictures), and you're done. Your "engagement" does not depend upon posting (and thereby adding upward motility to the thread). By contrast, people "engaging" with the off-topic threads, such as political, "benefit" BY discussing; hence the "engagement" IS active posting rather than merely passive reading. There are many motivations here, but they are almost irrelevant, as addressing this problem doesn't depend upon motivation.

2) It could be that the many/most active off-topic posters are non-climbers (I mean people that rarely, if ever, climb or have climbed). Such people would garner little "benefit" from more-active climbing-related threads, so would (could) not participate in them by posting.

3) Young, active climbers will necessarily hold climbing as a higher percentage of their life interest than will aging, less-active or inactive climbers. Climbing used to consume probably 70% of my waking thoughts and many of my dream-states. Today it is probably more like 10%. I do still climb, and I'm an active lurker in many climbing threads. Yet, I also find myself much more interested in economic, scientific, religious, and political issues than I did when I was a "young anarchist" just climbing. Yet, as I said upthread, I still find value in threads on these "off" topics of interest that are discussed by climbers. So, as I said upthread, I still see these "off-topics" as really on-topic BECAUSE they are prosecuted by climbers on a climbing forum.

I realize that (2) and (3) could well be in conflict, which I will address momentarily.

Since it is posting rather than merely reading that causes threads to percolate higher, either of the mentioned points would naturally cause non-climbing-related threads to "rule" the low-numbered pages of threads.

Put any two together, and the effect is dramatic and at least what we actually see. There could well be other causative factors here, but these points alone can explain thread-popularity as we presently see it.

Solutions?

1) A simple change would be to rank threads by some reads/writes metric rather than by writes alone. This one change would give actual climbers a stronger influence on making climbing threads percolate up, and that by doing nothing more than what it is claimed we climbers want: to READ the climbing threads!

2) It should not be hard to ensure that posting privileges be granted to only climbers (past or present). There is some "monitoring" overhead in screening applicants to grant posting privileges to only those that actually DO have climbing history (present awesomeness need not be necessary, as long as present aging folk were once active climbers). However, that level of "monitoring" would be a small fraction of the effort required to actively "tweak" thread activity itself. Thus, the proportion of climbers posting might (should) dramatically increase, which on any ranking metric should cause climbing threads to percolate higher.

3) This one is much harder to address, as it could well be that, even with (1) and (2) in place, "off-topic" threads will still percolate higher than some would find optimal. About the only approach I can think of that is programmatically feasible would be to monitor reads/writes of logged-in users and warn then remove posting privileges from users that don't "engage" in "climbing-related" threads "enough." But (3) is troublesome because most reads are done without logging in, and how the ratios would be set would necessarily "filter out" people that clearly should be "in," while still letting "the wrong element" post "off topic" more than they should.

(2) and (3) are in apparent conflict, as I would find less value in "off topic" threads that I found out WERE largely percolated upward by non-climbers; yet, at present, I presume that such is not the case. I instead presume that these topics are percolated upward by climbers with an increasing interest in these topics as a total percentage of their life-interests. Certainly, implementing something like my (2) suggestion would better ensure that climbers dominate posting, which would make my (3) observation less problematical (in at least my mind).

In short, (1) and (2) can be pretty easily addressed, which would just "naturally" ensure that this remains both an open-topic and substantially climber-driven forum. However, the fact of (3) STILL may well have the proportion of climbing-related to non-climbing-related threads non-optimal by some perspectives.

However, merely implementing "solutions" to (1) and (2) will at least ensure that (3) has its "proper free market" effect on thread popularity, and that with less real-time "monitoring" effort, while maintaining the basic look/feel that HAS made the taco stand "the road more traveled."
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:28am PT
Whoa.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:50am PT
Just how many pounds of flesh do yall 'dues-paying members' (haha) expect?

Supertopo.com is in business since 1999-11-10 which means that it was registered 1 decade 3 years 2 months ago and is registered with GODADDY.COM, LLC. supertopo.com is ranked #179,748 in the world according to Alexa.com traffic rank and gets around 23,965 daily pageviews from 4,793 unique visitors. It appears that this website has no pages indexed by Google and 26 by Bing. supertopo.com has Google PageRank 5 of 10, which is highest possible rank for small businesses and blogs. Website's IP address is 216.218.209.18 which means that server is located in California, Fremont, United States. It appears that this website has no backlinks in Google and around 722 indexed by Alexa. supertopo.com generates around $ 60.00 USD in daily ads revenue and its estimated value is $ 36,000.00 USD. Since no malware was detected and recently reported by users, supertopo.com is rated as SAFE to visit. Information about this website was last updated 1 month ago.

Sixty bucks a day, eh? Now THAT is a rip roaring internet business. Woo hee boy howdy, looks like cmac is building his retirement fund right there, for you know, when the guide book business falters.

For 60 bucks a day (1.2 pennies per unique visitor) I bet the dude will pay to have this whole facade rewritten, to cede to the demands of these dues paying members, so that they may enjoy a better web experience (without buying anything)

Some of you are pretty funny with your future of the forum crap. Pretty full O yerselves too. Your daily visit to the taco is worth 1.2 penny. Spend it wisely!

I want it MY WAY.

ITS MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!

(don't forget the toll)

DMT
Matt

Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
Jan 23, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
at the end of the day, i would seriously just hope every one of you has enough other (i.e. more important) sh#t in your life that whatever happens with the forum is not that big a deal!



(read: WTF, who really cares? move on already)
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
2) It should not be hard to ensure that posting privileges be granted to only climbers (past or present). There is some "monitoring" overhead in screening applicants to grant posting privileges to only those that actually DO have climbing history (present awesomeness need not be necessary, as long as present aging folk were once active climbers). However, that level of "monitoring" would be a small fraction of the effort required to actively "tweak" thread activity itself.

The problem with that is it doesn't scale. If you're going to implement a rep system, you need to rely upon the members to provide the rep. Users gain rep (and potentially privies) when they provide content that the community finds valuable and participate in ways that benefit the forum.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Users gain rep (and potentially privies) when they provide content that the community finds valuable and participate in ways that benefit the forum.

A paycheck would work far better.

DMT
WTF

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
WTF, who really cares? move on already)

No one cares! Moving along now thanks.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
A paycheck would work far better.

Actually, research and results say otherwise. For instance, look at participation in open source software projects. Look at the quality and effort users put into Stack Overflow answers. Or closer to home, look at the efforts of guidebook authors and first ascensionists. Community recognition is a powerful motivator.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Ok I can accept community acceptance/approval as a powerful motivator.

But the guidebook piece isn't a good example in my case... a paycheck would definitely make a difference. How about a thousand bucks a route? I'd divulge the f*#k out of my patch, hahahahahahaha. Community apprecation? Not so much... ;-)

Cheers
DMT
scooter

climber
fist clamp
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
As I look at the threads there are more 'climbing' threads than ever. Awesome. The site is looking great. Maybe try deleting ALL the non-climbing threads for a month.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 23, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
Just talk about climbing...

kwit

climber
california
Jan 23, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Pure procrastination got me here, but since I'm here, I'll add my totally unrecognizable and unimportant minor character two cents: I think it is important that this forum has all sorts of political weirdness and off-topic dilation and arguments and undercooked rants.

I live in San Francisco, work in a deeply liberal profession, and associate probably 80% with people who think and vote like I do, largely because that's simply how demographics play out. I like to come on here and look beyond the walls of my little fishbowl. I don't love to read about how some people are positively in love with guns, but it helps me to know that those people are also climbers with whom I have things in common so maybe that big Gun Divide is surmountable. Or people in favor of drastically reduced governmental services: not what I think, but again, how lovely to be able to say "wow, I totally disagree...let's go climbing" than just to imagine we have no way to speak to each other at all.

Or consider the "dog's life" thread. TOTALLY OFF TOPIC but probably the most loving and harmonious thread on here, and makes me feel good to read it.

As for boobies: pfffft. Who cares. Do I support the objectification of women? By no means. I am a woman and I'd rather not be reduced to my secondary sex characteristics. But I don't need a thread on Supertopo to feel objectified. I need look no further than the grocery store checkout or the New York Times for that. This is not a captive audience, and an audience with choice should reject censorship just as it may also choose to reject hypersexualizing women. Chris M. can make the choice to police this site--that is absolutely his right and prerogative, but I would hate to see the hotchpotch of this site get all lined up and neatened and made safe.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
C1 or A4?

I can dig it.
Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I found that I got pretty bored trying to find climbing posts in all the politcal/ religious/ ranting / ect...

It'll be nice not to have to hunt for a climbing thread!
kwit

climber
california
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Yeah Skully. Nobody on here seems to want an over-bolted wall with pads at the bottom and an elevator at the top, so maybe we don't want to over-bolt the site, either. You come here and maybe you're gonna take the big ride. Or not.
WBraun

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
The future of the forum

There's no future as it's already here full of stupid boobs ......
QITNL

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
...stupid boobs talking about themselves and other stupid boobs...

And a good evening to you, WBraun.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
she's got everything she needs
she's an artist
she don't look back


always wondered if she looked forward

Good night Mrs. Calabash and Herr Braun, whererever you are.


Credit: The Flames



EDIT: and Jim Donini and Lolli

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Kwit, outstanding post. I agree completely.



Keep the TacoStand weird.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
screening applicants to grant posting privileges to only those that actually DO have climbing history

If this site comes to that, many good people and friends of the community here would not "qualify." I for one, would "resign" despite my background, which isn't much. WTF? That is not the ST I know!
QITNL

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
I could call my mom and see if she hung on to my old Whillans harness - does that qualify as climbing history?

But I don't have to wear it, do I?

Your posts are always rock solid, Mr. TMJesse.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
"The future of the forum"








"WE'RE GONNA DIE!!!"
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
You all know there's more to climbing than the simple act of climbing. Chalk up, rack up, whatever......Been around long enough to hear and see what goes on in total from sun up to the time everyone passes out.

This climbing forum represents the above. Yeah, there is more to climbing than the actual act. There's the s#@$t talk, the friendships made, sharing, caring, hating, mad bolters, bolt cutters, routes won and routes stolen ...you fill in the rest, you get the drift.

Really, this forum mirrors real life. So get over it and live.

Love and Peace to all of you who helped me create a new life when I lost my last one.

Chill and Ciao, lynnie
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 24, 2013 - 01:35am PT
QITNL, from you, that a true compliment. Much appreciated, I feel the same to you.
QITNL

climber
Jan 24, 2013 - 06:32am PT
Hey LL -

I think this is the only photo of me on Supertopo, yours, thanks:



I mentioned i met hossjulia there before and needed to scram to get my permit.

I was right. Stupid paperwork.

Your friend, Joe
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2013 - 03:59am PT
Caught this today, looks like an interesting open source project: The Civilized Discourse Construction Kit

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 6, 2013 - 04:10am PT
Whatevz. Sooner or later thing change. It's all "gud."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 5, 2014 - 10:49am PT



Wut did ya all decide?


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jun 5, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Hooliganism!

DMT
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Jun 5, 2014 - 11:54am PT
William Wordsworth...

“What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;
...

Susan
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 5, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Cool Susan
Messages 1 - 302 of total 302 in this topic
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews