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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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Frankly, I am appalled at the number of times here on SuperTopo that people reply to an accident thread with the phrase "sh*t happens". Most of the time it appears to be a very misguided attempt to make the person who made the mistake that caused the accident feel better.
Please be careful out there and do not accept that "sh*t happens".
Bruce
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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"I now have responsibility for my n00b gf, must triple check everything. But, if she dumps me, I start soloing."
Some of the greatest climbing achievements in history have occurred this way! Go, fattrad!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Thanks Dingus, anything worthwhile to add that might make a difference these next few months?
I usually love your stuff.
I'm not trying to get anyone to sign anything in blood, but damn, two of the very important guys that have disappeared lately were regulars on this forum. So it's got to be worthwhile to raise awareness RIGHT HERE!!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Sorry Survival, I can't go along with the checklist, at least for me, reminds me too much of my Boy Scout experiences. If people really took the time to learn how to climb, no I'm not talking about the gym, unfortunate accidents would decrease. Knowing how to climb does not mean that you can pull a 5.13 move, it does mean that you are always aware of the circumstances and your relationship to them.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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Jim, ok, so any suggestions to cut down on the fatalities we've had this year, besides "learn to climb"?
I mean, letting someone know where you are going, and having a few extra essentials has been proven out over many decades in many fields of endeavor.
Sorry if it reminded you too much of the boyscouts.
Military jet pilots have ejection seats, parachutes, life rafts, survival vests, beacons, escape and evasion plans for a reason. It goes well beyond "learn to fly".
I stand by my effort to get people to think.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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t*r,
telling or calling someone is fine, and was one of my suggestions, but a note on a car that says,"spencer lake, addison creek, north ridge of BigMomma peak, could save someone too.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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I'm old school (and from the Pac Northwest), and tend to carry extra sh#t (like a stocking cap, wind parka, headlamp, tape and garbage bags on (lets say) a 10 pitch valley climb. Been there, done that, and needed it all at one point or another in my career. But I climb with a young California (ie. never seen bad weather) "scaled the grades too quickly" ultra-light freak. We always have this little tension filled discussion before a climb. Extra batteries? Three ounces wasted in his book.
I'll admit he's worn me down and I'm going lighter these days. I'm not sure if he has budged on his side. ha
Maybe this thread will help me stick to my guns. There is sh#t that will help you stay alive when bad things happen, even if those bad things only happen once in a hundred outings.
But I'm sure as not going to start carrying no tampex pad. I've got to draw a line somewhere. :-)
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froodish
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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Caught this today: Cocksure: Banks, battles, and the psychology of overconfidence (Gladwell - The New Yorker) and even though it focuses on the investment banks, I thought it dovetailed well with this thread.
...Of course, one reason that over-confidence is so difficult to eradicate from expert fields like finance is that, at least some of the time, it’s useful to be overconfident—or, more precisely, sometimes the only way to get out of the problems caused by overconfidence is to be even more overconfident...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Yeah man, I've been all through the "go light, go fast" discussions. It works great,........ as long as it works great.
But when things go south beyond pure speed and beating the afternoon rockfall, gear saves lives. It has done so, over and over for so long.
It's this attitude of nothing but my harness and beauty=safety that is bull.
Like I said, it works great, as long as NOTHING goes wrong.
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kc
Trad climber
lg, ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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Helmet. Please.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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As long as we're not being asked to take The Pledge: "I hereby solemnly promise, God helping me, to abstain from all distilled, fermented, and malt liquors, including wine, beer, and hard cider, and to employ all proper means to discourage the use of and traffic in the same."
That of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, that is. Thank heavens that they haven't discovered SuperTopo yet, and started preaching at us. As though we don't have enough preachers around here already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman's_Christian_Temperance_Union
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Clod
climber
Frogtown, LA, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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I don't know much, but climbing on Pledge seems really unsafe to me.
Sure, the hard, glossy shine and lemony scent are great on my hutches and credenzas, but on the crag? It'd be like wearing gigantic clown shoes in a world of banana peels.
NO THANKS!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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Pledge sounds wayyyy too Boy Scoutish. And while there have been a few good suggestions in here (maxi-pads), most of them come down to a more mental/psychological thing.
Use common sense.
Pay attention.
Realize that the possibility of making errors goes up alot when you're tired. Compensate by being extra careful at that point.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 09:33am PT
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Ok, the safety suggestion.... ooo no, suggestion sounds too bossy...........The safety,..er..damn..safety sounds too boy scouty....The danger avoidance...uh, dang, then it can't be about climbing.....wait...
The Nothing We Can Do About Anything Thread...hmmm.. I think we're getting closer.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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The single most dangerous issue in climbing is system stress. When it has a chance to establish itself in an individual--- as in physical exhaustion, lack of water, heat, cold, various sorts of exposure, or even prior injury--- the individual ability to detect the presence of imminent danger drops dramatically. I have seen this over and over and over and over again; and it has also been established in numerous research efforts. Warfare scientists really know a lot about this psychological effect too, not just climbers. NYT times had a great article on it yesterday, btw.
A person under great stress is far less able to recognize right in front of him something that is deadly--- not just subtly indicated stuff but blatant stuff even. You can be staring right at it and not see it. So as many here suggest, if your are stressed your ability to be safe is incredibly compromised---- you are in a red zone without knowing it but have to take all possible steps to counteract this condition by additional cognitive effort, even though that is the last thing you want to do, more thinking, more managing.
Part of being a great climber is being able to operate nearly fully under horrendous stress. It is not just being able to pull hard moves or use hardware ingeniously when things are just spiffy. To squeeze through to the safe side in bad situations requires altogether different powers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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Thank you Peter.
A thoughtful, well written post as usual.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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Survival,
A pledge isn't for me or, apparently, Dingus. Climbers tend to be the types that shun rules or, even, guidelines. However, given what I've seen out at the crags you may be onto something. A lot of your suggestions should be a part of the learning process of climbing.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 11:52am PT
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Jim, thank you very much.
Yes, I completely understand the rebel mentality. I love it.
In fact, it's what sucked me into this universe too.
As I said, I'm not asking anyone to sign an actual document of any kind.
Pledge is merely a word, nothing more. There are many uglier words slung around this forum every day. Would it be better received if I had called it Awareness Commitment? Or maybe, Let's Get Our Sh*t Together Thread?
I mean, no one could accuse JB or WS of not knowing how to climb. Dingus said preaching to the choir. Absolutely. We've lost a couple very important choir members right out of our very midst.
I am really just trying to get us, as a community to think and engage in a discussion. Let's not forget how we are always hearing how many people lurk but don't post.
If we can get one or two climbers, of any kind, to think one step further, or have an extra angstrum of awareness about the weather or a crucial piece of gear, then I guess we've done alright.
Again, thanks for coming back to the discussion.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Why do people have to get hung up on the "pledge" thing. I can understand detesting the word, but you are missing the point. Simply put, we love are fellow climbers and don't want to see any more of you hurt or killed. Lets discuss how one can go about climbing safely, so that doesn't happen.
We spend alot of money on safety equipment, yet we're still getting hurt, why?
I work on industrial safety systems, and I see where individuals become complacement with safety when they've been involved in a potentially dangerous industry for decades, and they don't see anything bad happen. So they let their guard down, and eventually they get bit.
Climbing is exactly the same deal. The objective hazards are the same on every climb, whether you've been at it for 3 weeks or 3 decades.
One can go out on a climb with a dental floss single rope, dozen pieces of gear and do a 12 picth route with utter safety. On the other hand someone can have double ropes, enough gear to stich up the captain, pull a small haul bag on a zip line, and get in trouble on a 3 pitch route. I think too little gear can be just as dangerous as too much.
But, the real issue is, every time you tie in matters, every time you put someone on belay matters, every time you anchor in matters, every placement matters, every move matters.
And if you don't have the skills to analize a knot, an anchor, a placement, then go out and get some training. If you are a new or newer climber and don't understand why your partner set up an anchor the way he/she did, ask them to explain it to you so you can learn. If your partner has some good pointers how to improve what you do, listen to them vs. blowing them off.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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What are you guys trying to actually do?
Minimize accidents or fully control so called accidents?
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