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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 29, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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Ok people, here we go.
It has been a seriously rough year around here, for all of us.
Too many d*mn fatalities.
Witness the Temple Crag accident thread, a good outcome at least. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=914647&tn=20
Now I would never dream of asking anyone to hang up the ropes for the rest of the year, but let's try to make a pledge to double, triple check and do all the right things to PREVENT PREVENT PREVENT!!!
Doug and I have 70 yrs experience between the two of us and we were recently double checking knots and anchors and each others gear like a couple of noobs.
Of course we need to do these things all the time, but d*mn, let's make an extra effort to put a stop to the bad news for the rest of the year!
* Make sure someone knows where you are going, and what to consider overdue, and who to call in the event that something goes wrong.
* Leave a note on your car. Not necessarily a return time (thieves) but at least where you are climbing/hiking.
* Take some First Aid gear. A big blood stopper dressing if nothing else. (combat size) You can improvise a bandaid out of a trauma dressing, but you can't improvise a trauma dressing out of a bandaid. Dressings can be improvised out of t-shirts of course, and splints out of day packs, etc. But a couple pieces of commercial gear don't weigh much.
* Have some storm gear. A couple BIG garbage bags can be improvised ponchos if necessary. They pack down to nothing and weigh damn near nothing. Robbie and I filled two giant bags with dry grass and pine needles for a bivy when we were benighted after a one day ascent of the Harding Route on Conness.
* Treat all holds and blocks as suspect. Obviously some are more suspect than others, especially in the high country, where you are more remote to boot.
* Treat fixed gear as suspect. Some of that shizz is OLD.
* Treat slings as suspect. Have a few extra slings.
* Have a few extra pieces, for the unexpected retreat.
* Check your partners gear. I have been caught off guard by partners who weren't willing to hump a couple extra pounds.
* Double check knots, harnesses, ropes, anchors, back things up.
* Have a signalling device. A quality whistle is kind of the minimum. An aerial flare that goes up 300-500 feet is light.
A signal mirror with a hovering "fireball" actually is the most accurate, directional and reaches waaaay out there. But they require some knowledge and practice. Of course they don't work so well in shiteful weather, but obviously storms aren't the only time we get our *ss up a creek.
I know I'm sounding a bit preachy, but the modern magazines look kinda like a d*mn REI/Dillards catalog. Everything is so clean, modern, light, young, healthy, glossy....
We need to get a little more OLD SCHOOL self reliant, and be prepared d*mn it!!
Help me out here people.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Great advise and reminder!
I've gotten into the habbit of double checking knots and harness buckles and asking my partner to give a once over. I especially grill this into my kids. I've also gotten into the habbit of wearing the brain bucket as well.
Somehow loosing John has taken the climbing energy right out of me, and I haven't been on rock or plastic since then. We've also had a spate of moisture lately.
Not sure if or when I'll solo again, likely roped but I'm not so sure about going cordless.
Oh, and it's not so much about carrying extra gear, it's being mindful every time you rope up or take the responsibility of belaying someone else. Keep your head in the game at all times. Unfortunately its easy when you've been at it for awhile to take things for granted and have lapses in keeping yourself safe. Doesn't matter how long you've been climbing, gravity is a constant.
And lastly, don't be a rush to drive somewhere or more importantly take your time coming back from the latest adventure. If you're bone tired, pull over and take a 15-30 minute nap. I've gotten in the habbit on long road trips of pulling over and snoozing when I get drowsy.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
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Roger that. Heads up out there. Play hard and play smart.
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Eric McAuliffe
Trad climber
Alpine County, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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I have been thinking about this exact thing for a little while now after this past 6 months events. We have lost quite a large number of amazing climbers and some less known recently and that has had me thinking a lot about safety.
I've only been climbing for a few years now and now that we get a little more comfortable in the vertical, simple things seem sometimes overlooked. i've done a little soloing but to hear about such a prolific soloist falling off scares the crap out of me. Double checking systems is sooo important imho. Climbing is inherently dangerous, but we can limit some of those dangers if we take the nesscary steps, although there will always be a group that needs to push the envelope to the limit.
Thank you so much Survival for posting this, i was thinking about doing something similar but could not figure out quite how to get my point across and you hit it on the money! Everyone be safe and most of all have FUN!
E
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Most important thing, Be mindful, pay attention, and doubly so when tired. Accidents are caused by bonking and spacing out.
Peace
karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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I will not sign your Loyalty Oath.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Great stuff you all, keep it coming!
Cragman, LOL, that's exactly the kind of stuff they rammed down our throats at survival instructor school, and of course Wilderness EMT classes are full of it too.
I can keep preaching, but I would much rather see the suggestions and advice coming from this great crowd we have here.
But my pledge is: I will keep this on the front page by myself if I have to. I'm just flat sick of all this sh*t we've been choking down lately. I don't kid myself, I know some of it comes with the game, but d*mn, we need to slow the bleeding for awhile.
caughtinside, whatever dude. You're a social climber anyway, so I guess you're not under the gun much?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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A bit of first aid training also is useful. And a triangular bandage or two (aka headbands) can be helpful to have.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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I never climb. I am on this site to participate in the social exchanges on non climbing related threads.
I will carry an extra roll of tape on my harness next outing to the gym. Thank you for the reminder.
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Eric McAuliffe
Trad climber
Alpine County, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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"I will carry an extra roll of tape on my harness next outing to the gym. Thank you for the reminder."
aside from the context, i got a good laugh out of that one...
E
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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You mean the "crux" is NOT where everyone unties to watch the leader???
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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For caughtinside: You're welcome.
Keep it safe there in the gym too. You never can tell when a big block of plastic will come off and send you plummeting to the end of your top rope. Don't forget to double check that you haven't got a hole in the crotch of your tights.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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If I patched the hole in my tights the chicks might stop asking me out for drinks.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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Funny you should mention pulling plastic. While it seems like the utterly safe way to climb, it has it's own dangers. My partner popped when he grabbed a spinner hold. Fortunately I caught him before grounding as it was just high enough to where he could have done some damage to his ankles with a bad landing. It's easy to be casual in a gym if the leader looks solid, I mean, it's a gym, totally safe.
The other incident was a guy who broke a hold at the gym. The piece of the hold even clonked him on the head and caused a slight abrasion.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Senator, I never have been, nor never will be a Communi... er, sorry wrong hearings.
Senator, I never have been, nor never will be a noobie like this...
"double checking knots and anchors and each others gear like a couple of noobs."
only old skool does double checking of knots and anchors. noobs by definition almost won't.
:)
Some day I really hope to be considered old skool.
good paternalistic bump ++
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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Dare we mention if you put up a route, it should be protected for a climber who is maxed doing the climb? If you cruise any 11 and then put up a 5.7 with a bolt at the top and the bottom, meaning anybody doing the climb who can only climb 5.7 has a potential crater 15 feet past the only bolt he can see, maybe, just maybe the really old school mentality has some merit:
The leader, is responsible for the safety of those that follow.
no, you cannot and should not be able to idiot proof climbing, but you can place clips where they can be reached, you can make sure your placements do not create death swinger pendulums for the second, and recognize that maybe the guys that took the time and the care to put in those 1/2" stainless rawls were actually being incredibly responsible to those that followed.
I can go anywhere, get no beta other than to know that Yaniro put it up, and know that it will be hard, and safe... and not sewn up, just reasonably protected. balance, consideration, and maybe a dash of stewardship, what a concept.
The flip of that is consider some of the "statement" routes,
was it cool, or was in fact incredily selfish, to put up a route to make an ego oops style statement?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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Nice Ed.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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I want everyone to sign up on this! I am tired... Dang, if another one of you goes... Someone is going to need to put me in a padded room. C'mon, be nice to my sanity, stay safe...
AF
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Barbarian
Trad climber
slowly dying in the OC
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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I'm instilling this in my 11 year old son - check it once, check it twice, check it again. My wife would happily be spending my life-insurance money if I let something happen to him.
Just imagine your partner is an 11 year old. What level of checking would you do then?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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One of my partners IS an 11 yr old!
Luckily she's sharp and pays super close attention to the details. Not only that, but she asks great questions.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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Frankly, I am appalled at the number of times here on SuperTopo that people reply to an accident thread with the phrase "sh*t happens". Most of the time it appears to be a very misguided attempt to make the person who made the mistake that caused the accident feel better.
Please be careful out there and do not accept that "sh*t happens".
Bruce
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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"I now have responsibility for my n00b gf, must triple check everything. But, if she dumps me, I start soloing."
Some of the greatest climbing achievements in history have occurred this way! Go, fattrad!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Thanks Dingus, anything worthwhile to add that might make a difference these next few months?
I usually love your stuff.
I'm not trying to get anyone to sign anything in blood, but damn, two of the very important guys that have disappeared lately were regulars on this forum. So it's got to be worthwhile to raise awareness RIGHT HERE!!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Sorry Survival, I can't go along with the checklist, at least for me, reminds me too much of my Boy Scout experiences. If people really took the time to learn how to climb, no I'm not talking about the gym, unfortunate accidents would decrease. Knowing how to climb does not mean that you can pull a 5.13 move, it does mean that you are always aware of the circumstances and your relationship to them.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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Jim, ok, so any suggestions to cut down on the fatalities we've had this year, besides "learn to climb"?
I mean, letting someone know where you are going, and having a few extra essentials has been proven out over many decades in many fields of endeavor.
Sorry if it reminded you too much of the boyscouts.
Military jet pilots have ejection seats, parachutes, life rafts, survival vests, beacons, escape and evasion plans for a reason. It goes well beyond "learn to fly".
I stand by my effort to get people to think.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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t*r,
telling or calling someone is fine, and was one of my suggestions, but a note on a car that says,"spencer lake, addison creek, north ridge of BigMomma peak, could save someone too.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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I'm old school (and from the Pac Northwest), and tend to carry extra sh#t (like a stocking cap, wind parka, headlamp, tape and garbage bags on (lets say) a 10 pitch valley climb. Been there, done that, and needed it all at one point or another in my career. But I climb with a young California (ie. never seen bad weather) "scaled the grades too quickly" ultra-light freak. We always have this little tension filled discussion before a climb. Extra batteries? Three ounces wasted in his book.
I'll admit he's worn me down and I'm going lighter these days. I'm not sure if he has budged on his side. ha
Maybe this thread will help me stick to my guns. There is sh#t that will help you stay alive when bad things happen, even if those bad things only happen once in a hundred outings.
But I'm sure as not going to start carrying no tampex pad. I've got to draw a line somewhere. :-)
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froodish
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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Caught this today: Cocksure: Banks, battles, and the psychology of overconfidence (Gladwell - The New Yorker) and even though it focuses on the investment banks, I thought it dovetailed well with this thread.
...Of course, one reason that over-confidence is so difficult to eradicate from expert fields like finance is that, at least some of the time, it’s useful to be overconfident—or, more precisely, sometimes the only way to get out of the problems caused by overconfidence is to be even more overconfident...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Yeah man, I've been all through the "go light, go fast" discussions. It works great,........ as long as it works great.
But when things go south beyond pure speed and beating the afternoon rockfall, gear saves lives. It has done so, over and over for so long.
It's this attitude of nothing but my harness and beauty=safety that is bull.
Like I said, it works great, as long as NOTHING goes wrong.
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kc
Trad climber
lg, ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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Helmet. Please.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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As long as we're not being asked to take The Pledge: "I hereby solemnly promise, God helping me, to abstain from all distilled, fermented, and malt liquors, including wine, beer, and hard cider, and to employ all proper means to discourage the use of and traffic in the same."
That of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, that is. Thank heavens that they haven't discovered SuperTopo yet, and started preaching at us. As though we don't have enough preachers around here already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman's_Christian_Temperance_Union
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Clod
climber
Frogtown, LA, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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I don't know much, but climbing on Pledge seems really unsafe to me.
Sure, the hard, glossy shine and lemony scent are great on my hutches and credenzas, but on the crag? It'd be like wearing gigantic clown shoes in a world of banana peels.
NO THANKS!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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Pledge sounds wayyyy too Boy Scoutish. And while there have been a few good suggestions in here (maxi-pads), most of them come down to a more mental/psychological thing.
Use common sense.
Pay attention.
Realize that the possibility of making errors goes up alot when you're tired. Compensate by being extra careful at that point.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 09:33am PT
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Ok, the safety suggestion.... ooo no, suggestion sounds too bossy...........The safety,..er..damn..safety sounds too boy scouty....The danger avoidance...uh, dang, then it can't be about climbing.....wait...
The Nothing We Can Do About Anything Thread...hmmm.. I think we're getting closer.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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The single most dangerous issue in climbing is system stress. When it has a chance to establish itself in an individual--- as in physical exhaustion, lack of water, heat, cold, various sorts of exposure, or even prior injury--- the individual ability to detect the presence of imminent danger drops dramatically. I have seen this over and over and over and over again; and it has also been established in numerous research efforts. Warfare scientists really know a lot about this psychological effect too, not just climbers. NYT times had a great article on it yesterday, btw.
A person under great stress is far less able to recognize right in front of him something that is deadly--- not just subtly indicated stuff but blatant stuff even. You can be staring right at it and not see it. So as many here suggest, if your are stressed your ability to be safe is incredibly compromised---- you are in a red zone without knowing it but have to take all possible steps to counteract this condition by additional cognitive effort, even though that is the last thing you want to do, more thinking, more managing.
Part of being a great climber is being able to operate nearly fully under horrendous stress. It is not just being able to pull hard moves or use hardware ingeniously when things are just spiffy. To squeeze through to the safe side in bad situations requires altogether different powers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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Thank you Peter.
A thoughtful, well written post as usual.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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Survival,
A pledge isn't for me or, apparently, Dingus. Climbers tend to be the types that shun rules or, even, guidelines. However, given what I've seen out at the crags you may be onto something. A lot of your suggestions should be a part of the learning process of climbing.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 11:52am PT
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Jim, thank you very much.
Yes, I completely understand the rebel mentality. I love it.
In fact, it's what sucked me into this universe too.
As I said, I'm not asking anyone to sign an actual document of any kind.
Pledge is merely a word, nothing more. There are many uglier words slung around this forum every day. Would it be better received if I had called it Awareness Commitment? Or maybe, Let's Get Our Sh*t Together Thread?
I mean, no one could accuse JB or WS of not knowing how to climb. Dingus said preaching to the choir. Absolutely. We've lost a couple very important choir members right out of our very midst.
I am really just trying to get us, as a community to think and engage in a discussion. Let's not forget how we are always hearing how many people lurk but don't post.
If we can get one or two climbers, of any kind, to think one step further, or have an extra angstrum of awareness about the weather or a crucial piece of gear, then I guess we've done alright.
Again, thanks for coming back to the discussion.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Why do people have to get hung up on the "pledge" thing. I can understand detesting the word, but you are missing the point. Simply put, we love are fellow climbers and don't want to see any more of you hurt or killed. Lets discuss how one can go about climbing safely, so that doesn't happen.
We spend alot of money on safety equipment, yet we're still getting hurt, why?
I work on industrial safety systems, and I see where individuals become complacement with safety when they've been involved in a potentially dangerous industry for decades, and they don't see anything bad happen. So they let their guard down, and eventually they get bit.
Climbing is exactly the same deal. The objective hazards are the same on every climb, whether you've been at it for 3 weeks or 3 decades.
One can go out on a climb with a dental floss single rope, dozen pieces of gear and do a 12 picth route with utter safety. On the other hand someone can have double ropes, enough gear to stich up the captain, pull a small haul bag on a zip line, and get in trouble on a 3 pitch route. I think too little gear can be just as dangerous as too much.
But, the real issue is, every time you tie in matters, every time you put someone on belay matters, every time you anchor in matters, every placement matters, every move matters.
And if you don't have the skills to analize a knot, an anchor, a placement, then go out and get some training. If you are a new or newer climber and don't understand why your partner set up an anchor the way he/she did, ask them to explain it to you so you can learn. If your partner has some good pointers how to improve what you do, listen to them vs. blowing them off.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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What are you guys trying to actually do?
Minimize accidents or fully control so called accidents?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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"Brawn edit: We're trying to run you and Dill into the unemployment line, of course!" Ha ha ha!!
Of course, that will NEVER happen.
C'mon Werner, you can read and understand as well as anyone.
What is a "so called" accident anyway?
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Jul 30, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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I pledge Aleisha to the slag
Of the United States of Bulgaria
And to the Republicans for Richard stands
One naked undergarment
Invisible man
With Liberace and puffed rice for all.
:)
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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yes the safety check is a very important thing, I do safety checks/meetings constantly. I spend alot of money on safety equipment and if i don't always check it, then, well, I just don't feel, safe. . .hooray for safety checks/meetings. . .in fact i'm going to do one, or two, right now. . .
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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Hooray for Bullwinkle!!
Although I can't exactly tell whether you're pulling our a leg
just a little bit or not.
I don't think so.
Go forth and try to keep our partners alive.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 10:39am PT
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Huge Rock Pitches Off In Eldo with a party below.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=918789
More People Climbing Every day.
More Inexperienced People Climbing. (Not pointing at the Eldo guys)
Looks like we may be in line for MORE bad news every year, not less.
MAKE A BIGGER EFFORT NOT TO CLIMB UNDERNEATH OTHER PARTIES, ESPECIALLY WHERE THERE IS "KNOWN" LOOSENESS!!
(This is certainly not a new technique in climbing. Many of us have been practicing this one for decades.)
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Actually a good topic. I was as guilty as anyone in that I didn't check my friends knots etc like I should have. Although I dont climb that much anymore I have gotten into the habit of looking at everyones tie in to the harness and belay. I just give it a look without saying anything about it out loud. It is a good idea that I was negligent about in the past. Now I do it every time. Thanks for the reminder!
Tom Evans
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Survival, I am all in favor of what your trying to accomplish here. I wish folks wouldn't get so hung up on semantics. Most accidents can and should be avoided.
I am always on the alert. In the mountains I not only keep an eye on the weather but I am on constant alert for any objective hazard that can be mitigated. Additional to regularly scanning tie ins an anchors I carefully watch the eyes of who ever I am with. The eyes never lie. Stress shows up in them first. Particularly when I led groups I always kept track of everyone. At the crags I quietly scan everyone. And I do speak up when foolishness appears. Otherwise it is just a quiet vigilance. But I grew up as a mentored trad rat. And BITD we 'learned' the ropes and awareness necessary to survive. For me the bigger concern is the hoards of tenderfoot gym climbers venturing out to the crags with no background information to draw from. I think, without proper guidance, the frequency of "accidents" will increase. We as a community can help instill a 'common sense' understanding to future climbers.
As to leaving a note on the car I have one word of advise; PENCIL.
More than once I have returned to find the ink of a note bleached out completely. And that even though the notes were folded inward. Pencils won't fade away like that.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Tom and Phil, Thanks guys.
With this smart *ss crowd around here, I was sure there would be some smack talk to go with this.
But the events of the past few months have made it so that most of the posts have been genuine, pro or con.
Some with a true rebel dislike of anything that smacks of conformity, which I understand, but it's mostly disagreement with the whole concept of "pledge".
But mostly it has been good feedback from quality, experienced people who are pretty bummed with the number of great guys we've seen pass this year.
Some may have been sheer freak moments, but as you said Phil, most are preventable.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 10, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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BUMP!!!
More tragic news!!!!!! Keep it smart out there!
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 10, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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bump
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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looks like its time for another bump. forget the semantics; please be careful, and f*#k the fast and light stuff. I'm feeling really bummed right now.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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Well, this thread rears it's ugly head once again.
So don't take, make, or have anything to do with a pledge.
But please do everything that you can to insure that you and the ones you are climbing around are making preparations and evaluations. You know, get your shuns covered.
This was never meant to take the form of a piece of paper for people to sign. I'm sorry anyone took it that way. It was meant to raise our awareness in all areas of this beautiful, sometimes terrible game that we play.
We have had a fatality in almost every aspect this year.
Roped vs unroped
stone vs ice
You know what I mean.
My partner and I have not only been checking and rechecking our systems, but we have been getting more verbal in communicating this stuff to each other.
I also took a much more proactive stance when observing a couple of n00bs this year. Didn't get all righteous and preachy with them, but made some very friendly and pointed suggestions which they seemed to appreciate.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
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Donini bump.
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