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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 28, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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Is Temple Crag a pile of loose junk?
Apparently worse than the Pinnacles (National Monument), where I climb but many people avoid.
I like mountaineering, but some years back I decided to restrict it to good granite and some gneiss.
No Temple Crag for me.
Here's a list of recent accidents there, that I know of:
 Eric Hengesbaugh [Surgicle - East Face, 2015]
pulled loose block, 35-40' fall to ledge, broken back (L2), broken tib-fib
http://hengesbaugh.blogspot.com/2015/10/fall-risk.html
Brenton Wright [probably Venusian Blind, 2014]
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2465843/Brenton-Wright-RIP
Jesse [Venusian Blind, 2009]
hit on leg by block pulled off by leader, broken leg, lots of bleeding
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/914647/Venusian-Blind-Rockfall-Accident-Report
Beth "Fluoride" [Sun Ribbon Arete, 2009]
hit on helmet by brick sized rock pulled off by leader 50' above, concussion
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/907328/Serious-thread-helmets-and-rockfall-impact
Joe Cackler [Venusian Blind, 2004]
took 45' leader fall on p4 when he grabbed a shoebox sized loose rock, little pro in due to loose rock, one nut pulled, tooth puncture through lip
Ren Buckley [Moon Goddess Arete, 2003]
pinned at base by a 300 pound loose block which leader pulled off from 10' up the first pitch, onto her hips/ribs - very tricky rescue involving setting up a hauling system to lift the block off her body. Much of the rope was also trapped under the block, so they needed a knife to cut enough rope free to make the hauling system. Knee injury, temporary nerve damage.
http://web.stanford.edu/group/alpineclub/saj/0304/saj0304.htm#pg21
Linnea Erickson [Venusian Blind, 2003]
free solo fall, fatality
https://www.alumni.unh.edu/obits/2000s/erickson.html
doctor from Mammoth [Moon Goddess Arete, 1999]
fell midway up near the 4th class section above pitch 8, fatality
and some near misses
Mark Thomas [Moon Goddess Arete, 2011]
see Jenga Challenge section
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Temple-Crag-Twofer-the-Labor-Day-Partay-MGA-VBA-friends-on-VBA-MGA-SRA/t11186n.html
Melissa [MG/Venusian side, 2009]
tethered to belay anchor, loose rock dislodged by the rope, missed her
more near misses, blocks pulled off, in this thread
I'm sure there have been many more past accidents there - anybody want to add to the list?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jul 28, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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It's been referred to as "Temple Crap" by everyone I know for a reason, myself included.
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CClarke
climber
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Jul 28, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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Most alpine routes have lots of loose rock. These are popular . . .
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 28, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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Instead of adding to the list (I don't know of any other hits or near misses), let me add a comment. Temple Crag does have loose rock. But so does almost every High Sierra rock climb I've done (I've done around 80 multi-pitch, fifth class routes in the High Sierra, including the three celestial aretes and Dark Star on Temple). I think it's more a function of the type of climbing, not just the place or even the type of rock. Most of the climbs here are on mountains, not crags or cliffs. Much of the High Sierra was above most of the glaciers that scoured lower rocks clean (a relative phrase, to be sure).
There are exceptions; some of the most heavily traveled "trade" climbs don't have as much loose stuff, but some do. And there are worse areas than Temple too. I've never seen such looseness as in the Minarets (excluding the South Face of Clyde because, I suppose, it gets so much traffic). But almost every roped route (and certainly every unroped route) I've done in the Sierra has at least parts with loose blocks and loose, just, rubble.
There's a certain skill one develops moving over this kind of stuff, and, honestly an element of luck too.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jul 28, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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I've done Sun ribbon and Venusian Blind. Neither seemed too bad.
I've heard Moon goddess is looser and have avoided it so far.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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The higher number of incidents is probably due to the fact that it's a very popular place. More people means a higher pobability of more incidents.
It has it's loose sections, but I don't recall it being any better or worse than other alpine climbs in the Sierra. In fact, once you're out on the aretes, it's pretty solid and safe.
I think you're missing out on some great climbing by avoiding Temple Crag. Sections of it aren't the most solid rock in the range, but those aretes are just plain fun.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 28, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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Clint, I hear you, but don't agree that Temple Crag is any more loose than any other alpine realm.
Methinks that many of these accidents --and they are unfortunate-- have to do with folks not being familiar with the context, and pulling and stepping without requisite care. Akin to skiing on a day with moderate (or considerable) avalanche hazard, one's picking the right path, and treading very lightly, have considerable bearing on one's safety.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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Here's a photo of Venusian Blind from slobmonster's 2009 trip report
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=907623
which makes me think it looks looser than the alpine (light?) realms I like to visit:
big stacked flakes on ridges, large talus cones...
And here are some from his 2008 trip report
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=643502
I agree there is a partial "rookie effect" in some of these accidents, but if J is knocking rocks on Melissa, that's no rookie effect.
[Edit:] OK, Melissa says it was in fact a rookie effect - I was wrong about that one. Good thing they learn fast!
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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Part of the game but worth consideration none the less.
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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its no coincidance that most of the injuries noted involved the leader pulling on loose blocks.
alpine climbing requires an alpine aproach.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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its no coincidance that most of the injuries noted involved the leader pulling on loose blocks.
alpine climbing requires an alpine aproach.
We had a close call when we did it, but if Temple is dangerously loose they should just put the yellow tape all the way around Split and call it off limits.
Alpine climbing requires a "Danger UXB" attitude.
Inappropriate yanking and cranking will get someone killed. There have even been some incidents at Tahquitz due to the gym climb "all the holds are attached with 3/8" bolts" attitude.
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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VB Arete: Damn, I thought I had sufficiently cleaned that route
in 2000! While leading I pulled four good size flakes off, one about 100 lbs I was lucky enough to throw off into the abyss, before it took me for a ride! After returning to Bishop I said to Lauria and King, "hey it's really loose up there", they just shrugged it off and said, "that's Temple Crag"!!! Clearly I was a tourist in their playground!
So, beware and make sure you yell, ROCK!!! Cardinal Pinnacle was much more solid once you hiked through 1,000,000 boulders in the scree field!
Thor
Clint: I just climbed North Early Winter Spire, I must concure, very solid granite up on the Liberty Bell group!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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Temple Crag is WAY over rated. If those routes were given the 0 or 1 star they deserve, this thread wouldn't exist.
I've done all the routes in Rossiter's 1991 Teton Classics, most of the IV and longer routes in Croft's Sierra guide, except the traverses, most of Kelsey's recommended route list in the Wind River and tons of routes on all major climbing formations in RMNP. I say as far as the "popular and well known" alpine rock climbs out there - you'll have to travel to Canada to find a bigger pile of rubble than Temple. If you claim the poor rock on Temple is "part of the game" and "typical", I feel sorry for you and your pitiful failure to find something better to climb. Temple is an outlier - not even on the curve. Just say no - for christ sake - you're in the friggen Sierra! How about the Hulk, Third Pillar, Charlotte... ?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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By saying it's "too" loose, I'm not sure what you mean. Too loose for what?
He'll probably be embarrassed to have it be part of this thread, but the truth is he rock that came near me was knocked off by leader error (flicking the rope around a pile on a ledge), and my belay position was very poorly planned. We were on the snow-avoidance start variation and weren't even to the routes yet. He hadn't even shoed up yet. Although we have lots of experience climbing loose rock, It was our first back country climb, so I guess it we were being rookies by not being really serious about protecting the belays from the word 'go'. When we went back the next day on another route, we did things very differently. If I had gotten hurt there, it would have been all about us making bad choices.
I never had to do a single move on either route that we did that felt like it was on dicey rock. Handling the rock with care and testing holds was part of the game, and I thought it made the climbing more interesting. I loved it there and am looking forward to returning.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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We are a little soft in the to loose area compared to The Euro's. If your are Mountain Climbing Knott every pitch is gonna be yosemite granite, Get Real.....Anybody want to climb Mt. Morrison out of Convict lake with me?... Neither the leader or the second should fall........
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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now, this crag might be considered too loose, but I mean, "duh."
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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That looks pretty damn clean.... Why Knott post a picture of Fairview with all the real crud removed....
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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chief, that was the implication. no need to be ornery about it though. I grew up back there and worked on those cliffs for most of my twenties. best season on cannon: the depth of winter, when that crap is all frozen together.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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Hey Chief if that is Cannon, let's see a picture of it in Full conditions....I could use a chubby tonight.
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NotIt
Trad climber
Malaga Cove
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Can I be the first with the stones to suggest that a LOT of accidents and near-accidents are caused by....
drumroll.......
SUPERTOPO!
If you have been to any area covered by the ST guidebooks, you have seen the type - no elaboration needed, but I will anyway.
New-looking gear, perhaps a Planet Granite belay card on the harness, general air of overconfidence only exuded by those that are trying to compensate for inexperience, looking upward from the base trying to line up the most minute feature from the ST to corroborate the start of the route. Generally one dude has the "leader" vibe and the other dude is totally f-ing clueless and it's his first or second time climbing outside (though the other one is probably in his first or second season of placing gear), socks are common, as are tape gloves - often on face climbs, they seem to love link cams, tend to have bad breath (this, admittedly, is anecdotal), the second generally takes tension to work each piece, belays are constructed exclusively with cordalettes (though usually with wanton disregard for force multiplication via obtuse angles)...
I have to stop myself.
Now, do I use SuperTopo? Absolutely. Though more and more often I use it as a reality check on which climbs are going to be murdered with long lines (there were 11 people on the first pitch or at the base of south crack two Sundays ago).
They are a valuable tool. If I wanna climb something and don't want to dick around on the approach, don't want to deal with routefinding, etc., they're definitely the correct tool to pull from the box.
The problem, however, is that this same tool, in relatively inexperienced hands, can engender a false sense of confidence. The South Lake Tahoe/Yosemite Valley Free climbing/TM guides? Great. Tough to get in over your head there. But the High Sierra guide, IMO, gets a lot of people in to situations for which they are ill-equipped.
[self realization: I feel like Roxjox right now, ranting like this]
You want to see this in action? Hike in to the Cathedral Lakes trail on a weekend and ask who is going in to to Conness. Then ask about their alpine experience. My unequivocal experience is that most will tell you that this is their first alpine climb. GREAT! Except for the fact that most parties are also lacking two key elements: either a) someone in your party for whom this is NOT their first alpine climb or b) a SOLID through-the-ranks apprenticeship at the crags and on progressively bigger stuff.
Yes, Conness is frontcountry, relatively speaking, but this is an indication of the broader problem in my opinion.
There is nothing to be done about this, so I just have to worry on these guys' behalf. That or rant here, which seems to be a popular pastime.
So to be clear, Chris MacNamara is a personal business inspiration to me - the dude is about my age and totally made a living from what he loves. I believe that he has created a fantastic product and a durable business. I have a lot of respect for both. He's not responsible for what gets done with these great guidebooks - it's just tough to go out there each week and watch the same pattern repeat itself.
edit: hooblie says what I wanted to but far more eloquently. tx.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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Hey how do I get one of those "Planet Granite" belay cards?
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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notit, I can't really argue with you on many points. We're all prone to believing what we've "learned" reductively... not sure if this exactly the right term, but I think you know what I mean: you keep doing the same thing, that "works," but really does not work when the system is pushed toward its limit.
I like Temple Crag, much as I really loved climbing on Cannon. The challenge is not gymnastic.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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> That's Cannon and it's way looser than anything we have here in the Sierra, without question.
It's loose, but I think in a different way. It has the big ratio of talus height to cliff height, which confirms the looseness. And when things come off, they can be very big. But it does not have a lot of junk stacked on ledges on popular routes.
Still, I wouldn't want to climb anything left of the Whitney-Gilman.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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"Temple Crag - too loose?"
Ummm, yeah, it's....Temple Crag.
It's not classic Sierra clean white granite- it's some other intrusive plug of shite (Minerals chime in please). It gets lots of traffic b/c it is considered part of the Palisades, it's closer than N Pal/Sill/Thunderbolt/etc, and because the routes appear like a slam dunk to the aspiring alpinist (5.6-5.8)
Like someone said earlier in this thread, 'it is what it is'.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:55am PT
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I agree with the last post. Temple Crag is not made out of the same rock as the upper Pallisades. I regret to inform you that I am a geologist with 25 years working SEDIMENTARY ROCKS! So I am no help. I did have to take Igneous Petrology in school, though.
TC is much looser than anything else up there. When you climb in the mountains, you had better get used to loose and broken stuff. TC has more than its share.
That said, as I replied on the recent accident topic, the big problem is knocking stuff off on your second, either by yarding something off or the rope dragging something off. And as I said before, when you start climbing in the mountains, you will start hiding your belays pretty damn quick. I can think of a fair number of times that this has saved my life. It is kind of routine to duck out of the firing zone.
You hear the big rocks coming off above you and you scurry around like a rat trying to find something to hide under. When you learn to deal with it and a little spicy objective danger, you will start to get it dialed. One falling rock can kill the best alpinist on earth, though. That rock doesn't care who you are if it has your name on it. It amazes me that some of the more bad-ass ST posters have made it to such a ripe old age.
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Unforgiven
Mountain climber
Dirt
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:32am PT
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What you wouldn't climb anything left of WG. Meat Grinder is left of WG and good!
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Les
Trad climber
Bahston
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:00am PT
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wow, I can't believe folks are hatin' on Temple Crag! I did Sun Ribbon back in 2005 and thought it spectacular and solid all the way. Encountered minimal loose stuff.
I love Cannon, too, and yes, while it's generally loose -- it's an "exfoliating granite" cliff -- I didn't think it bad at all on the routes I've done (Lakeview, Whitney-G, Moby Grape, Black Dike). And Chief, Whitney-Gilman is still very much intact - there was a rockfall incident to the left off and below the Pipe Pitch a few years back, but it really didn't change the route much at all. Still some loose stuff in the spot that needs to be avoided though.
Oh, and if all goes well, I'll be climbing Venusian Blind next Tuesday or so! I'll let you know what I think of that route after that!
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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I can't believe some people think they have the knowledge, experience, and wisdom to deal with choss. It's an illusion! Yes you can avoid some danger through decision making, but its really all about luck. When you get up there on the shozzle treadmill, you lose control of your fate, which you never really had anyhow. Give it up! If you chose to do those things, do it cause its fun, and accept that you will die...if not in that moment, then in another just like it. THAT is the freedom of running around in the high sierra. Safety does not exist at home in the city, on the drive to Big Pine, on the approach, and certainly not on a climb that appears to emerge out of a quarry. I personally got a kick out of "Moon Goddess". The rock is so good on a micro scale, but its like being on a giant jenga pillar. The unknown elements of insecurity were just laughable, and it was so much more pretty than sitting in my bedroom with the drapes pulled, doing the ol spin-n-click.
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bob
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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Nice Jake. I agree. Now I haven't done many sierra toutes compared to a lot of folks. Mostly T. Meadows high country, Hulk, and Temple. I did Darkstar on Temple and it was so friggen rad. Its on the top of the list as far as enjoyment of climbing, experience of its fluctuating rock quality, and damn that place is just out of this world beautiful. Jake remember heading down off the Hulk cuz I didn't want to yank a huge chunk of death on your head? Granted you were in an exposed belay spot, but man o man that woke me up. That chunk doesn't exist anymore. Wonder if that was hucked off or unintentionally pulled.......yikes!!!!
High Sierra climbing is fun.....................chossy........splitter..........and way, way dangerous. So is bouldering.
Love it all. Fun reading on this post. Thanks folk!
Bob J.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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"Can I be the first with the stones to suggest that a LOT of accidents and near-accidents are caused by....drumroll.......SUPERTOPO! "
Complaining about rookies is what rookies do. There were new climbers in the mountains long before Supertopo.
"I can't believe some people think they have the knowledge, experience, and wisdom to deal with choss."
There is a lot experience brings. I don't think luck is a huge factor. However, I'm in with the statistics. Climb crap long enough and no matter how good you think you are, you will pull off a huge chunk and who knows where it will end up.
The totally retarded thing about climbing Temple, though, is that you are smack in the middle of some of the best rock in the world.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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I would never say avoid Temple Crag...plenty of people have got up it with no drama and loved their experience. Others with some near miss rockfall but still sumitted just fine. Others not so much.
But I do think it's looser than the other alpine stuff I've done in comparison. But just something to be aware of. Not something to avoid, but be much forwarned.
As far as Ruby Cirque goes, I've wanted to try those for awhile but the grades are harder than most other high Sierra alpine routes and more prohibitive to the average climber (i.e. non 5.11). I've scoped them, drooled over them, talked to others who climbed there, but not yet climbed them. I have Dave's hand-drawn topo's, would love to do them but I'm not at that level but I think anyone who could send Positive Vibes would have a great experience on those climbs without huge rockfall risk (some since they get less traffic, but the rock quality seems stronger). Just something to be careful of since they get so much less traffic but the rock quality there seems far superior to Temple.
But hey, it's the alpine rock and anything goes. Storms, loose rock, other weirdness. Something you accept when heading up there.
Be safe and enjoy the rock folks.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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JakeW.....Jakey from the the "K"????
I been guiding here for 8 years. Had Croft pass me and my clients after doing some laps on Temple. We were finishing vensiuan, Croft had done sunribbon, moongoddess, THE Triple crown all in the same day...oh ya I think he hiked out too.
Dont believe Croft would solo anything considered "Chossy".
I think its great rock. Probably a lot of FNG's pitchen it out along the ridge with there 70'meter ropes knocking rocks off ledges and things. There is a little loosenes though NO more than any other route.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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hey Clint-really, how is the rock on slesse?
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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It would indeed be best if most folks avoided Temple Crag all together…. way to loose.
NotIt, you got it right, except you forgot to point out…. always has 4-5 spare locking biners, Aliens and BD cams down to the smallest size, but no stoppers. Oh and a bike helmet….
Good rant.
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scuffy b
climber
Sinatra to Singapore
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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Hey, The Chief...
Could you clear up one thing for me?
Do you think Temple Crag is typical for High Sierra
climbs, or is it one of the looser ones?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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JakeW...I disagree. I've been doing the experiment with the experience factor for a while now. How much sh#t do I knock off compared to my partner? Over time the gap has narrowed. At some point, we all gamble. But you can learn to make choices that improve your odds.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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Seem to recall some doctor from Mammoth was killed on Moon Goddess in 1999. Fell mid way up near the 4th class section above pitch #8.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jul 29, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Temple Crag seems generally solid enough to me, and I've guided over a hundred ascents of those ridges.
Where to start? Clint, the photos you posted creep me out too. Side view of ridges that look like stacked crocery. But those huge flake-looking pieces have survived countless gigantic earthquakes. Think of the 1872 quake, about 8.2, the one that rock-and-rolled John Muir in the Valley. The one where he noticed a fresh layer of talus on top of pretty much every talus cone. It was centered a lot closer to TC, in Lone Pine, and it killed most of the folks living in town. They were in adobe shacks, though, and it was one in the morning.
And oh yeah, the huge fan of white talus in the background of those shots is NOT from TC. That's Mt. Alice, entirely different rock, always sliding so much we locally call it "Slide Mountain." Scariest thing I ever saw in the Palisades was a group going up it single file.
The ridges on Temple look a lot better from the front than the side. They're less than vert, so you learn to dance up that stuff, step lightly not yarding on things. Common sense. At least common alpine sense. Those aretes got to stand out off the face in the first place, geologically speaking, by being more sound rock.
And yeah, I worry about how people can learn that stuff too. Kind of my mission as an alpine guide is to teach by example stepping lightly. Balance up a class 2 scree pile without moving anything while others are sliding it with every step. Cathedral Peak is truly a wonderful first alpine outing, a chance to feel that you can deal with stuff looser than the Tuolumne domes below. TC is probably not so hot as a first alpine climb. Too big, just for starters. It's good to see that so many get intimidated at first glance and go back down the trail. Seems appropriate.
The average move on one of the Celestial Aretes is 5.5. The rock will be 70 degrees and very solid. Repeat a thousand times and don't forget to sidestep the obviously loose. Upper end moves tend to be 5.7 jamming on steep steps 10-15' high. Pretty fun stuff. Way classic climbing! Shorter ropes (there are plenty of ledges), protected belay spots, helmets, being alert, taking care.
I'm actually pretty conservative about loose rock, and careful. I have kids. I worry about driving. I run from lightning.
It may get me yet, but TC feels on balance an acceptable risk. And climbing it sure is a lot of fun.
If my sense of relative safety is an illusion, then it's one that has somehow survived many hundreds of thousands of feet of climbing those aretes over more than four decades.
And yes, I did say that Moon Goddess has crossed my line into unacceptable looseness, and I'm sticking to it.
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NotIt
Trad climber
Malaga Cove
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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JLP -
Just to be clear, I ain't complaining. I'm worried for them.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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If DR says Moon Goddess is pretty loose and risky.......
It is.
Its like Simon Cowell telling some young, psycho, off pitch American Idol wanna-be that they should find a new job. DR is the Simon Cowell of the Sierras. You might not like what he says....but you gotta respect it.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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"'Can I be the first with the stones to suggest that a LOT of accidents and near-accidents are caused by....drumroll.......SUPERTOPO!'
Complaining about rookies is what rookies do. There were new climbers in the mountains long before Supertopo."
Not really. I can understand the gist of Clint's original thread, but let's face it, there is a whole new generation of climbers bred in the gym who don't get the same tutelage trad climbing on real rock that many of us did. It's my opinion (and apparently others' as well) that guidebooks that profess to provide lots of beta create the perception in some people's minds that they may be more in control of their environment than they actually are.
Sure Temple Crag has loose sections, like many routes in the Sierra. If experienced trad climbers who have dealt with that issue over the years still have accidents or near misses due to loose rock, of course newbies without that experience climbing in the same enviroment are likely to have way more.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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I haven't done a ton of high sierra routes, but I can say that without a doubt Sun Ribbon was the loosest route I have done by far. Second place is Venusian.
That said, we didn't knock anything off unintentionally. We did pluck and chuck a few daggers.
It took us 9 hours to do Sun Ribbon, and a big part of that was that the 4th class which I thought would go really fast, went slow because we had to really be delicate in the loose crap, step around and over, and test a lot of things before going.
Too loose? Depends on how comfy you are on loose rock. It's heads up for sure, but I sure had a good time.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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David,
> really, how is the rock on slesse?
Quite good. I've climbed the regular route with my dad, and the NE Buttress with Steph. The NEB is a contact zone between regular granite and something else, so it's nice featured granite. While the rock is good, getting onto the NEB is quite hazardous unless you wait until after the pocket glacier has slid (which does not happen every year). In 2007, we had planned to do it in mid-August, but the glacier had not slid, so we put it off. In mid-September the glacier had slid, so we went back and did it.
http://sabegg.googlepages.com/slesse
In July 2007, a party attempted it, but a chunk of the glacier slid and killed one of the guys. It wasn't safe to recover the body until September. When we did it, part of their rope was sitting there on the slab.
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Big Piton
Trad climber
Ventura
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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To all who think it is too loose to climb in the Sierra's
You are right, stay away.
Thank you
MMM
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Ah but those celestial aretes draw the climber in like a moth to a flame. The climber only discovers the aretes' true nature up close.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Let's blame the person who named Temple Crag in the first place?
If it had been named something less attractive, like Heap o' Scree, maybe people would not get so psyched on climbing there?
One time I did a FA at the Pinnacles that was pretty rotten/bad. At one point during the climb, a moment of inattention caused the rope to run through a pile of gravel and shower a little kid on the hiking trail directly below. He started crying, and I got a reality check. I picked out an appropriate route name for it:
Flies on a Pile
(sort of like Figures on a Landscape / Boogers on a Lampshade?) I don't think it has seen many ascents.
My favorite route names for loose climbs are both in Connecticut:
Sway It Ain't So (arete with loose(?) block)
Stacked Deck
(I haven't actually done these climbs, just appreciated the route names)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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My criticism is a bit unfair, because I haven't climbed at Temple Crag - just looked at the photos and read some trip reports.
It's true that those peak names like Forbidden and Terror may be a bit over the top.
Although right around July 4th, there was an accident and drawn out rescue on Mt. Terror. (Leader either stepped on a loose block or pulled it off; he fell a ways and broke his femur). Mt. Terror is like a perfect peak name for the TV news! Check out the broadcast video (14 second commercial, then 3 minutes of the rescue):
http://www.kirotv.com/video/20009916/index.html
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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I've always heard that place was crap!
I'm glad you are still with us Beth! I love you!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Just did Dark Star yesterday. The first 7 pitches were excellent climbing on good rock. After that,there is a lot of meandering around on the ridge with a fair amount of loose rock that doesn't present much of an objective hazard.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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del cross you have a point- a lot of climbers are looking for a "safe adventure." Safe and adventure are antithetical terms.
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Russ S.
climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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"I haven't yet climbed in the Cascades. Aren't there a lot of overly dramatic names up there like Forbidden Peak and Mt. Terror?"
Overly dramatic? No, the names just mean what they say, "Forbidden Peak is forbidden you Cali swags" and "you will experience terror if you trend on Mt Terror". By naming them this way, there no need for a guidebook because you know all you need to..... [ ;-) inserted for the humor impaired]
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Big Piton
Trad climber
Ventura
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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I have done one route twice, on Temple. The Arête of July 26th. Which is my birth date. I did it on my 26th birthday. However, rock fall on the down climb cost me only a new rope. The following year a took a client up the same route. More rock fall. But, we survived.
So, as I said before.
ROCK FALL IN THE SIERRA'S STAY OUT, THANK YOU MMM
Great Day in Ventura
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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Donini sounding like the experienced alpine climber that he is. There is much loose rock on Temple, but it does not in general pose an objective hazard. It's not raining down on you from someplace far away. Sounds like many incidents were caused by leaders pulling rocks off. I don't know what to say about that. My experience is that sure there are rocks you don't want to pull on, but you need to continually test and pull only on the solid stuff. Plenty of that around too I've found!
Earlier someone mentioned supertopo's influence on putting noobs in places they shouldn't be. My experience is that ST topos tend to give lots of beta on linking pitches. This is a great idea for speed, but a poor idea for rockfall. The nature of a lot of sierra backcountry climbing is short steeper sections separated by large ledges and blocky sections with a lot of loose stuff on them. Even if you place no pro, you still can get a lot of rope drag. This makes the climbing less fun, more strenuous, and increases the potential for the rope to cause rockfall.
When I did Venusian last summer, we did it in 16 pitches. Well, it would be more accurate to say we moved the belay 16 times, which included some short traverses along horizontal sections. That's the nature of the climb.
Tomo
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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nothing to see here folks...more yellow tape please.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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If you want loose check out Mt. Morrison- Temple is COOL!!!
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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c'mon Doug, bust out the Atomic Broom theory for all the folks here who have not heard it yet.
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chum
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Is Temple a Choss Pile? Yep. Is it super fun? Heck yeah...I damn near took a big ride on a bookcase sized block. It reset itself and I was spared the big whip. Thanks Temple Gods!!
I climbed Slesse last year and was nearly wiped out by falling ice and rock BEFORE starting the climb. Objective hazards are a bitch too. AND, there was plenty of junk to negotiate on sections of THAT climb too. Don't believe the hype. Its an amazing route by the way.
If climbing were fishing then I wouldn't bother.
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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:06am PT
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Yeah, it's loose, but fairly mid-to-low-range in the bell curve I would say for alpine granite... the high Sierra in general is looser than most other classic alpine climbing areas, IMO. Compare the Diamond, Bugs, or Tetons to Temple Crag... well, there's no comparison really. The Hulk and maybe Cathedral and Conness and a couple others are the only formations that hold up to a national standard.... the rest of it is cool, adventurous, and kind of subpar to be honest.
Problem is, now that Temple has been Supertopo'd it gets lots of traffic from parties who aren't used to climbing choss... recipe for disaster really. Lots of pulling out rather than down going on up there these days...
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Impaler
Trad climber
Munich
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:13am PT
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That's me on Dark Star in August last year just minutes after impact (I had a helmet and sunglasses on).
I liked it a lot! Next day my partner and I did the 3 celestial aretes. Some of the best time ever!
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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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Youch!!!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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Here's my problem with how this thread has gone.
There happened to be 2 unfortunate incidents in a short period of time in one place. As a result, now there's a "what's wrong with this place?" and "noobs are back there knocking off rocks, stay out of the alpine!" going in here.
I don't recall hearing a bunch of stories of unknowing climbers getting into alpine trouble because of ST guides there. If there is, please show it and prove it. Sure it probably happens, I'm sure there have been epics. But what happened back there wasn't related to any damn ST guide.
My partner had more Sierra backcountry experience than just about anyone else I've climbed with. I've done enough Sierra alpine I was completely confident with doing this climb. What happened was an accident, pure and simple. Could have happened to anyone. We weren't using a 70, we weren't clodding along unaware of loose rock, we weren't using shiny new gear we purchased cause we just emerged from the gym yesterday and read in ST that there was a good line back there.
We were doing everything we needed to do to get up this thing safely. And something bad still happened. Sh#t happens.
I know there are arguments against ST publishing backcountry alpine stuff. But take it to another place and time. Please.
And FWIW, Linnea died before the ST guide ever came out. And she soloed Swiss Arete without incident before she died on Temple Crag. I have knowlege of what happened to her. Again, Sh#t happens back there.
Don't make this into something it's not.
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noriko nakagawa
Trad climber
los angeles
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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Yeah, the High Sierra is super sketchy. Best to climb elsewhere ;)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:11am PT
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Noriko, I'm disappointed in you. I've followed your blog and enjoyed your high Sierra exploits. But you have still had experiences up there. Anyone that goes into the backcountry Sierra eventually will. It's only a matter of time. I've had nothing but good trips until this one.
If you read my post above you'll realize this was an isolated accident.
Jesus.
Please let this thread die. It's bringing out the elitest in too many.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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"It's bringing out the elitest in too many."
Nah, it's just a wankfest.
IMO, those that lack the strength, motivation and talent to climb something that's actually hard, can quickly make up for their shortcomings by taking risks on something easier.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:21am PT
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This post seems to have legs for some reason. The mountains, in this case the Sierra, are not the same as Joshua Tree. If you never want to have to deal with variable conditions of rock quality or weather there are plenty of venues for you. Isn't that why God created sport climbing.
George Lowe and I just returned from a 5 day trip to the Sierra. It was our first extended climbing together since Latok 1. We waited so long that we now comprised a 131 year old rope team.
The first day we did a 4 pitch route on Cardinal Pinnacle on perfect granite. We then climbed two routes on the Incredible Hulk, also on excellent rock. We finished off with Dark Star on Temple Crag. The first seven pitches were fun climbing on good, well protected quartzite. On reaching the ridge crest you have a lot of fun, exposed third classing with a considerable amount of loose rock. This part was the most fun for me, picking my way CAREFULLY up the ridge. The rock was not hanging over you so I felt quite safe as long as I exercised caution. That is one of the joys of climbing in the mountains- using care to move upward. Everything in life has risk, you can choose your own course. I will say that I felt safer on Temple Crag than I would on a motorcycle.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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(Sun Ribbon Tyrolean)
(Thunderbolt to Sill--with that much rock there's bound to be something a little loose)
(Good thing the Milk Bottle is glued down)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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Yeah Jim, and I felt 100% safer on Temple than I did driving on the 405 Fwy on the way home.
Are you saying that anyone who gets hurt up there has it coming cause they didn't exercise intense care of some kind? Cause that's kind of how your post came across.
Sometimes bad things happen even when you use complete care and caution.
"The mountains, in this case the Sierra, are not the same as Joshua Tree. If you never want to have to deal with variable conditions of rock quality or weather there are plenty of venues for you. Isn't that why God created sport climbing."
I respect the Hell out of you man, but this thread has become a chest puffing ground. What does that have to do with anything in this thread? I haven't seen anyone in this thread post "I can't believe the experience on Middle Pal was so much harder than Double Cross." I don't see how that's even an argument here.
C'mon guys. Step back for a minute. 2 isolated incidents close together and now everyone's an alpine God if they've never had anything go wrong up there.
I guess the only true mistake is if anything ever goes wrong in the alpine, never ever share it here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Flouride,
Sorry my post sounded that way to you. What I meant to say was that the mountains are what they are which is inherently dangerous. You can mitigate the risk by using good care and judgement. If the risk still seems too high there are numerous crags that offer safe climbing both sport and trad. Rather than diss a mountain like Temple Crag as a choss pile, except it for what it is and make the personal choice to climb it or not.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Thanks Jim, I appreciate that. Which is why way upthread I said in no way is this something that I feel shouldn't be climbed and did not agree with the original post. It's a great formation. It just needs a measure of caution that can't be stressed enough. That even if you've got plenty of Sierra alpine under your belt, beware of loose rock on this one. Chances are if you do that you'll be fine, but there's always the chance that you can take every precaution and still be screwed.
Again, in no way do I say avoid Temple. I wish to God what happened to me hadn't happened and I'd have had the pleasure of climbing that line and doing a great TR of a great day
Didn't happen this time and I got away VERY lucky.
One day it'll happen. Not again anytime soon, but one day.
Does anyone here read the entirety of all postings before posting up anymore?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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Yeah, the Sierras pretty much suck. Best y'all go to the Cascades, Rockies, Troll Wall, Pamirs, Andes. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion as you would know choss.
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kovarpa
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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go climb the first couple pitches on East Arete of North summit on Split and then come back to discuss loose rock.
If you don't want to deal with loose rock on TC, don't climb there. If you don't want to deal with loose rock in general, don't climb alpine or don't climb outside at all.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Dark Star from SRA:
After zipping up my sleeping bag that night, it took my mind and body a half hour to release the low-level tension that built up in my system from fear of loose blocks on Sun Ribbon.
Every time I closed my eyes, I was teetering backwards and a motherload trundle was coming with me. This probably indicates an overly healthy respect for the objective and subjective shitstorms that can let loose up there, but it worked for me. Anything can happen to anyone at any time - that's the mantra.
One more pic edit:
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Fluoride,
Coming from someone who's always been in the middle of the pack, I don't think anyone on this thread (at least from what I can tell) is in any way suggesting that your were careless or inexperienced or any other appropriate adjective. I think that many, like donini, were simply trying to communicate that the mountains can and often do bring a whole new element of objective danger that someone who habitually climbs at Williamson or even a well traveled area at Josh (or worse, Rockcreation) might find beyond what their prior experiences have prepared them for. That doesn't mean they can't accomplish the climb safely, but it does mean that someone like that might misjudge a situation and get hurt.
Having said that, when I'm in the mountains, I've always a "there but for the grace of God" attitude. Far better, more experienced climbers than I have gotten hurt or the chop for reasons not always within their control. Accidents are always the result of bad judgment, inexperience, etc.; sometimes they're just from bad luck.
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hengy
Trad climber
Vancouver, Canada
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Jul 30, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Don't stop looking for "loose" in the mountains. I managed to pull a bread loaf out of the 2nd pitch of Traveller's Buttress in 2005. My partner and I estimated that the block had been pulled on by no less than 50,000 hands and feet over the years.
"Caveat emptor", I believe they say.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
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le bruce- that's a gorgeous view of the 'in" side of Dark Star's arete, or should I say "crest"... didn't know it was THAT pronounced, wow! Makes me want to go for it. Mindful of the loose rock of course.
Fat Dad- I think you meant to say aren't in lieu of are in your last sentence there. Those darn typos... they can cause so much misundg!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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If you handed a yoyo to a 16 yr old and he played with it all wknd, you'd probably think he was a bit of a retard - sitting there while all his friends were out driving around picking up chicks. That's pretty much my feeling about these routes on Temple Crag.
I think it's pretty funny how many of you are talking about all this experience and wherewithal you have for the mountains, to be able to safely climb this choss, when in fact these are the most moderate, easy and accessible routes around. Even Dark Star has maybe 50 feet of >5.8 climbing. Yeah, it sure takes tons of experience to clamber up some unsustained, low angle 5.8 - and even more to think it was the coolest thing ever. Never mind that the argument is a straw man to begin with. What a bunch of mountain crushing badasses we have here.
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Mtnfreak
Mountain climber
Epicenter of North California
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I've climbed VB, MG, and SR multiple times, and I've gotten to witness a lot of other teams as well. My observations are:
1. People get sucked into believing that a 5.7 alpine climb is somehow easier to route-find. But that's not the case, and so I've watched several teams wander off-route into terrain with far more serious consequences than the best line up the arete.
2. The loose rock on Temple is better than the Minarets, worse than the Whitney Portal, but pretty standard for the Palisades - and is certainly not an outlier. You can still find loose rock on Mt Sill's Swiss Arete without getting off-route! And it certainly isn't worse than the Cascades! It does require testing holds.
Despite the grades and the approach, I don't think that Temple Crag is someplace I'd send my friends for their first alpine rock climb. I'd want them to climb something with easy route-finding, and short enough (less than 10 pitches) that if they have a screw-up they can fix it without spending a night out (that's happened already this summer on Temple as well).
Temple Crag shouldn't be underestimated, and simply deserves more respect. In the right hands with enough experience, its an awesome day climbing. I'm going back in two weeks!
Cheers
Chris
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You're absolutely right. Climbs like the ones on Temple Crag are self limiting by approach and reputation. It's been my experience over a number of decades that a climbs reputation usually exceeds it's actual difficulty/seriousness and, consequently, the climbers who get on said climb are usually very, even over-qualified, for it.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Dammit Donini I missed you and Mother George (ask him) at the Imperial Gourmet. By the time I got your message you guys were gone. Really disappointed. I don't think I've seen Lowe since 1975 in Pakistan.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What Donini said, pretty much always worked for me
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Geez Fluoride, I think you just want to take this whole thread personally for reasons that I can't entirely understand since no one has pointed any specific fingers at you.
One, the fact that Williamson has been closed a long time doesn't mean that noobs who climbed there have NEVER gotten over there heads in the Sierras. I for one have personally seen several parties beyond their elements in the mountains. So Cal climbers have been going to the mountains for years, not just the past three or four. That should seem obvious.
Second, just because someone invests the effort to go to the mountains doesn't mean that they're somehow magically invested with the skill and knowledge to climb them safely. EVERYONE has to have a first time. From the few times I've climbed the Captain, I've seen lots of energetic, well equipped parties who took lots of time and effort to get where they're at and then proceed to fail miserably. You're right that the approach does reduce the number of epics, but to argue that it eliminates them completely is just false.
Again, people are talking in the abstract, not selecting specific examples for derision.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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(edit: The post that prompted this response appears to have been deleted. Sorry if it seems out of context now.)
FWIW, the bail rate for folks schlepping their goodies all the way out yonder was about on par with El Cap during my 4 days hanging out up there.
Given this limited sample set, I conclude that a number of people underestimate their skills with respect to the skills required despite the long approach.
For myself I can say that if I had been with my peer instead of J, I probably would have gotten snail eye and bailed when I saw how immense it was. And if not then, when I had to cross the steep icy snow with rocks for tools. We were way slower than I expected and way slower than we usually would be on a climb of that length and difficulty, partly because taking care with the rock meant moving slower and partly because we didn't nail the routefinding 100%. (And probably the elevation factored in too.)
2 parties summitted on VB (including us)
1 party summitted on MGA (us)
1 party got off route before VB really started and probably summitted via the gulley. Maybe went down We lost sight of them.
1 party got to the base of VB and decided that "they didn't have the right gear". (Presumably snow gear.)
1 party got off route before the end of the 'approach' ledge and the actual arete on SR began.
1 (very experienced) party climbed the first pitch of another route (name slips me) instead of the 1st pitch of Dark Star. Had time concerns after they sorted it out and came down.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Melissa - sounds like a typical day for any moderate alpine route. My only beef is that 7/7 of those people showed up here to tell us how awesome they are in the mountains and how incompetent someone must be to get beamed in the head by a microwave. Carry on folks - this thread's entertainment value is high.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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They did? That's not my read.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Got the 'Temple Crag' mindset? (...last will and testament updated and signed..etc)
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Aug 12, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Just back from the Palisades with my daughter. The photo below made me think of this thread. With all this talk of looseness, the obvious question is: will Temple Crag even be around for the next generation? Ha!
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Les
Trad climber
Bahston
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Aug 12, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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Climbed Venusian Blind last Tuesday. Found some loose stuff on the second pitch after the long 3rd-4th class section, but thought it all pretty solid after that. Sure, there was some loose stuff on ledges/belays, but hell, what crag doesn't have that? Overall, I found the route very enjoyable. Did Sun Ribbon 4 years ago, and had pretty much the same experience.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 12, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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Bump.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Nov 12, 2014 - 10:21pm PT
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There's a certain skill one develops moving over this kind of stuff.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Nov 13, 2014 - 06:08am PT
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Interesting thread. Thanks for the bumpage.
I climbed Sun Ribbon many years ago. Based on its reputation, my friend and I trained pretty hard for it, including a very long day cragging at Lover's Leap with both the leader and follower wearing packs of the sort we'd likely carry on SRA. We did something like 1,500 ft. of routes at the Leap up to 5.8 or 5.9. We were also doing tons of hill running at the time. We had also succeeded together with another bloke on the S. Face of Clyde Minaret, so by the time we got to SRA, we were nervous but pretty confident of our skills. I also had a few grade V's and at least one VI under my belt. SRA was still a challenging and serious climb. I don't recall any unusually loose rock, however, certainly nothing beyond any typical high Sierra outing, and most of the route is actually quite solid. Great climbing! I've noted that the route has been upgraded to 10a. Is this legit, or are modern climbers wimps? ;)
BAd
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