Discussion Topic |
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MAD BOLTER
Trad climber
CARLSBAD,NM
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 17, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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I finished setting up the rap route for doubled 60mtr ropes and tape measured distances. The longest was 91' shortest was 39'
More specifics with anchor photos later. They are all stainless and chain connected.
I presume you know this is on Lembert Dome
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Layaway Plan
Trad climber
East of the Valley
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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When are you going to equip Cathedral Peak with a rap route? About as usefull....
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hungry man
Trad climber
around
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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maybe I'm just having a bad dream...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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that way the yahoo's drunk on cultural excess can find their way down.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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dude,
It's an easy walk down. What's the point?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Oh god a bolt. let's get our panties in a bunch.
It's a bolt protected route with mostly bolted anchors anyway. People get rained off it all the time. Why force em to rap off single protection bolts?
Thanks MadBolter
Peace
Karl
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Bengston was right.
We should just grid bolt everything.
Safety first! Adventure can take care of itself.
Have a nice day.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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jeez Baba wrong side of bed this morning?
I just think it's lazy. that's all.
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Layaway Plan
Trad climber
East of the Valley
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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People get rained off Cathedral Peak all the time as well.... That's why you look at the sky or the forecast before you climb a mountain.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Me thinks this is a troll. Why spray about a rap line on Lembert?
That seems the fastest way to get it chopped. Plus we'd prolly have heard of this already - i.e someone would have heard the drilling there for sure.
kev
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 17, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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Mad Bolter, someone said you're 76 years old.
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sneville
climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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Just did this route last sat(7/11). and walked off. Awesome route. While you are adding rappel stations can you please move the anchor bolts at the end of the 4th pitch ten feet to the right. Who ever put them where they are now must have been on acid or hated their second. As of sat I did not see any new stuff.
Sean
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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"We should just bulldoze all these mountains down so we can all be safe."
Mark Wilford (I think)
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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MY ETHICS
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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"People get rained off Cathedral Peak all the time as well..."
Cathedral Peak has plenty of cracks and tree to rap off off. Lembert has mostly blank knobby face
Geez, it's a done next to the parking lot, how much bolt protected 5 minute approach adventure you guys want to preserve?
peace
Karl
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:28pm PT
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While you're at it please add a few bolts to left water crack, and put rap station on Northwest Books
kev
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Cathedral had rap anchors. Bill Russel offered a couple SAR guys $20 per bolt if they chopped them and brought them back to him. They hadn't done the route before and eager for some beer money they ran up there. After getting lost on the way there they finally climbed the route, got to the summit and then were too scared to do the downclimb......so they used the rap bolts and went home empty-handed.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
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It's not a troll.
"MAD BOLTER" = Tom Rohrer, who established the rappel route on The Nose in around 1970.
My friend Sharon saw this rappel route being established last week/weekend.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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WTF is the community becoming? Guess this is why I'm out in the middle of the sierras climbing.
kev
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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kev, nothing to do with the climbing community, just with the recreational rappelling community (Tom Rohrer).
We'll see if these get chopped or not.
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Kurt Ettinger
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Are Recreational Repellers considerd climbers?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
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Uh, no.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Careful, gang - I believe that Chouinard may have started as a rappeller, something to do with birds maybe.
Tom (Rohrer) established the Nose rappel route on El Capitan, and the Lost Arrow chimney rappel route.
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gooth
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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There isn't much of a legitimate case to be made for installing rappel anchors for *climbers* -- the route is pretty short, there's an easy walk off, and you can retreat from any point in the route by leaving gear / utilizing existing fixed anchors.
The case of for *recreational rappelling* is totally non-existent. You're talking about five star climbing route whose use as a climbing route was established well before any use as a recreational rappel route.
Furthermore, the establishment of a sport-rappel route on this climbing route presents a significant safety hazard. Given the prominence and popularity of Crying Time Again and the ease of access to the top by sport-rappellers, collisions between climbers and thrown/tossed rappel ropes are inevitable.
Though I am a climber, I don't necessarily believe in the primacy of climbing as a use of the outdoors -- I realize that outdoor space is a limited resource that must be shared; sport-rappelers represent one possible use of park space and are probably treated as equals to climbers by the park service.
Given the historical use of Crying Time Again as a climbing route, I do believe that climbing use takes precedent over rappel use. If the situation were reversed, and that part of Lembert had been established as a popular rappel route, I'd be urging climbers to respect its first use as a rappel route.
Vince
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Kurt Ettinger
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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I'm with gooth. Being a climber myself, I can't understand this as a choice for a "sport rappel" route? I've climbed Cryn' Time a few years back, and I don't remember it being extensively steep or something that would make for exciting sport rappelling.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 17, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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"More specifics with anchor photos later."
Let's not rush to judgement.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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Hi Tom Rohr,aka "Mad Bolter"
I hope you're enjoying the summer, will I see you in the Valley this Fall?
Tom was the first man to rappel El Cap, he's established many rappel routes in Yosemite and the Meadows, and yes he's about a hunderd years old at last count (or at least his gear is) and he's a friend of mine so. . .be nice. . .df
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 17, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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Best Troll since the Jesus thing
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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i thought mad bolter was richard jensen? If it is him, he's just pullin our legs ;D
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 17, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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Rapping off of stacked stoppers is much more fun.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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MAD BOLTER = Tom Rohrer
Madbolter = Rex Pieper
madbolter1 = Richard Jensen
To keep the mad bolters straight!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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Jim,
No, I don't know what Tom's reasoning was.
I haven't been in contact with him since last summer.
Last August, he wanted to refurbish the rappel route down from the Lost Arrow Notch, and fix a few things on the Nose rappel route. But the weather was brutally hot, and he was not in shape to hike to the tops of these rappel routes (I'm not sure if I was in shape for this, either!). We did manage to replace a few notched lap links at Sickle Ledge and at anchors on the rappel route below the Stovelegs, but that was about it.
His other rappel routes are usually 150' or so between stations. So I don't know his exact reasoning here. My best guess is that he felt it would be a "public service". I have rappelled off Cryin' Time Again a few times, but with 2 ropes.
I like using the Grand Wazoo anchors to rappel from the Central Pillar of Frenzy, to avoid crowding at the CPF anchors. I don't know if Cryin' Time Again has this type of problem, but it might. I'd like to see where he added anchors - hopefully he will post photos to show this.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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Recreational Repellers, Hahahaha LOL
This thread is too funny.
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Trad
Trad climber
northern CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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The first time I climbed in Tuolumne it was with one of my favorite climbing partners, Maribel. We got there in the afternoon and climbed West Country, after which there were still a couple hours of light left so we were looking for something else to do. ("Stop climbing when it's still light out? That's ridiculous!!" That's why she's a great climbing partner.) In those days neither of us felt comfortable leading 5.10a but, inspecting the guide, we saw that with 2 ropes you could climb just the first 4 pitches of Cryin' Time and then rap off. (Yeah yeah I hear you, the walk off, blah blah. Again, it was our first time there.)
Well, to make a long story short, I trailed the extra rope while following the first pitch but it got stuck in the flakes so she lowered me, I freed the rope, and climbed the first pitch again. Second pitch was my lead but Maribel misread the topo and told me to avoid the bolts (I can't help feel at least partially responsible for trusting a peruvian still learning english, and not reading the topo myself). 20 feet above a purple TCU in a shallow flaring crack and making a slopey mantle I REALLY felt like crying. Finally I made the next belay and Maribel started to follow with the extra rope still trailing all the way down. Of course it got stuck in that base flake again, too far down for her to be lowered. The sun was setting and air chilling so we started yelling at each other about how it was their fault for getting the rope stuck. It was great. Priceless.
Eventually Maribel got the rope free and we made it to the 4th belay where were rapped off into the dusk. Good times. The learning experience was just icing on the cake.
Hey Tom R., it was nice meeting and talking with you outside the store a couple weeks ago.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 17, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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Just remember for a minute before you slag on Tom, that he's climbed and done bolt service in Yosemite from well before many of us were born. He's not new to the place or the issues.
"His other rappel routes are usually 150' or so between stations. So I don't know his exact reasoning here. My best guess is that he felt it would be a "public service". I have rappelled off Cryin' Time Again a few times, but with 2 ropes."
One exception would be the raps from Glacier Point Terrace. Now it would be unwise to go there but you used to be able to get off of the Oasis with one rope via his rap route way on the right.
Its also a totally unbased assumption to think he put in the rap route for the benefit of Sport Rappers, No Way.
He's just a guy who looks to give his service to the community. You might disagree and others might agree. Some folks think you shouldn't be able to rap the Nose without leaving gear but his contributions have saved a lot of asses over the years.
Peace
Karl
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Jul 17, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Ok Karl - but Crying Time? In an emergency it would be easy to get down from about anywhere on it. The walk off is really pretty nice--great view, you can make it as easy as you want by walking a little further.
I guess if the rap is off on the right side (looking up at the route) and doesn't get in the way of folks going up then maybe it doesn't make any difference, but it must be easier to walk off the top. "recreational rappelling" can't be a crazy assumption here. I guess that is as legit an activity as climbing or hiking or fishing or whatever.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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I don't mean to slag on Tom, but having talked with him, replaced his bolts (Nose raps), etc, I think it's perfectly fair to say that recreational rappelling is an appropriate term for his bolting.
As I said earlier, we'll see if the bolts last.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 17, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Hell, let's petition the park service for an elevator up there my old bones are getting creaky
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 17, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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"In an emergency it would be easy to get down from about anywhere on it."
I've actually been rained off Cryin' Time a few times, and you better have two ropes to get out of there.
So I'm happy enough to only have to take one rope now. Maybe it's just me, but I don't need every outing to be a trad adventure with minimum convenience. It's a bolt protected line that's next to the parking lot.
Peace
Karl
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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Seems like a extra rap bolt for convenience is no big deal in reality unless the bolt fairy put it in and if thats the case we all should be very concerned. The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:38am PT
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frickin sat phone, are you kiddin me?
whats next, a 900 dolar e beacon?
i saw some freaks spearin trout in chiquito creek this mornin, wtf?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:56am PT
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MY RAGE ABOUT THIS TRADE ROUTE IS UNFATHOMABLE
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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I like that he brought a tape measure.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Jul 18, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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That route made my nads shrivel back in the day. Hmmm still shriveled. But that was the point. No sense of adventure anymore. Lets just drill it all into submission.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Since most of the guys climb that route with one rope.
One rope: 60/70 meters. Half of that is what: do the math? That was the reason behind it.
Lost Arrow rap is upgraded as well there should be a topo on it soon.
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Kurt Ettinger
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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For bailing due to rain,emergencies this is cool. Now folks will have to leave minimal or no gear behind. BUT....."MAY THE FLEAS OF A THOUSAND CAMELS INFEST THE ARMPITS" of those who choose to use it for convenience instead of enjoying the short/easy/scenic walk-off.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 20, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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So within about 3 days of the new rap route being put in someone was able to use it to avoid leaving gear in a thunderstorm.
I'm not saying the bolts should stay or go.
But if you do not think the bolts should stay, I'd like to hear a good reason why they should go. There's a lot of "chop", "it's not trad!", etc. without any solid reasoning behind it. It seems people don't know why superflous bolts are bad (or at least aren't stating why) and just want to chop out of ideology.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 20, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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BECAUSE they're superfluous?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 20, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Why?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 20, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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It's your word.
I'd look it up.
Have a nice day. I really don't care.
I will, as always, do as I will.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 20, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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The reason for them to go is that they set a bad precedent. The climb existed more or less as it did for what, 30 years? The addition of additional fixed anchors in wilderness both degrades the commitment of the route and says "it's ok to retro-rig routes for convenience and safety." This both violates the traditional ethic of emulating the style of the first ascent (which Tuolumne is a stronghold of) and will potentially create problems with land managers if this kind of thing starts to proliferate.
Yes the route is close to the road but it's still designated wilderness. Yes the rap bolts helped someone dodge a thunderstorm. Making something safer makes it safer. If I added some more bolts to the BnY it would sure make it a lot safer...and destroy the character of the route in the process.
I won't be one of the people screaming for these bolts to be chopped, but I think a lot more thought and discussion is needed before people go re-rigging routes like this of their own accord, especially routes with thousands of ascents over many decades. Climbing in Tuolumne would be a lot easier if every route had giant rap anchors from top to bottom, but that's not really what climbing in Tuolumne is all about.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 20, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Thanks HDDJ.
I think you hit the nail on the head with "the character of the route".
It sounds like the new anchors replaced gear anchors, but I'll wait to see pictures or climb it before commenting on that.
I don't think this is anything like retro-bolting the BY. There's a big difference between pro bolts and rap bolts.
But it is changing the commitment of the route. But as Karl mentions it's a few pitches, next to the road. It's not a route you would seek out for commitment anyway.
Once again I'm not saying either way whay I think because I don't have all the info. I just hope to facilitate a constructive dialogue so whatever happens people see the other point of view.
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Kurt Ettinger
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
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Curious- can anyone who has climbed CRYIN TIME both pre and post rap anchors, please enlighten us on your thoughts of whether the routes "character" has been altered.
Edit: Sounds like del cross says no change other than $?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 20, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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Thanks Del.
So 1 gear anchor retrobolted. 1 pin replaced with bolt. Net- 3 new bolts?
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jul 20, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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Well, I climbed it probably 10-15 times before the rap route and it is one of my favorites. I have rapped off it a couple times with one 60m rope, due to weather. I am sure I had to leave a nut and a couple pieces of cord, I never had to rap off one bolt or anchor. Who ever chops the bolts shold due a nice job filing the holes. Please don't just clip them and smash them over.
Patrick
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 20, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
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I've wanted to climb this for years, but haven't had the chance, so I'm not familiar with it.
Will people be tempted to climb the bottom pitches and rap off now? Are the top pitches high quality?
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Jul 20, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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Jenson check your e-mail.If Its you.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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I unfortunately rapped from the 5'th according to the 83
guide book. So your replacing belay bolts on this route?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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I talked to Tom Rohrer on the phone tonight. He said that 2 anchors were added to make the route rappable with a single 60m rope. (From the discussion above, it sounds like one of the anchors was probably where a fixed pin was previously part of the belay anchor). He also said that the guidebook already had a note on the topo that the route was rappable with 2 60m ropes. He posted photos on the Camp 4 kiosk bulletin board.
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cmcguinness
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
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Jul 21, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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did this climb last weekend. Well actually only the first 4 pitches. Was a beautiful morning without a cloud in the sky when we started. Eventually storm clouds gathered and started to rain. We waited for a bit, but then it turned to hail. We were glad to have the option to rap down. Thanks mad bolter.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jul 21, 2009 - 02:33am PT
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The bolts alter the route.
They are not necessary.
That's 'nuff for me.
One vote for The Chop.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 21, 2009 - 02:46am PT
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I would be interested in knowing if MAD BOLTER talked to the first ascentionist and got permission to do the deed (if possible).
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
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Jul 21, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Wow -
There are a number of ways to look at this.
Fairview next?
Bolts never enhance the view of the stone.
People have got to take some responsibility - sometime?
Our goal should be to leave the rock alone.
Less is more.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Jul 22, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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I've never climbed this route and possibly never will (simply because I suck). Anyway, I was talking to a friend tonight at the gym who climbed the route last weekend .. I mentioned this thread (he doesn't read the taco much), and he said he noticed "new anchors" and that he kinda appreciated them. He said if it was a backcountry route that would be a different situation, but since this is a popular route so close to the road ..
btw He also helped with a rescue on Third Pillar last weekend - someone broke their ankle in a lead fall and he helped get the victim up top and carry him out. Pretty strong and able dude.
FWIW.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 22, 2009 - 03:44am PT
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Chief,
It sucks, but they won't last....
kev
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jul 22, 2009 - 04:18am PT
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I just wanted to post in this important thread.
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ChirpioBartholomew
Boulder climber
Dixon
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Jul 22, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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For more great rap routes see the Lovers Leap East Wall Rappel Route Post here and the Exiting Lost Arrow Spire Notch Post here.
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kovarpa
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Jul 23, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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imho, there is a difference between roadside route like Lembert and a backcountry climb. peace.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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What is the difference between "comfortizing" and "improving" a route,
and "comfortizing" and "improving"
holds?
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Jul 28, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Have these bolts been removed yet?
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THE MAD BOLTER©
climber
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Jul 28, 2009 - 10:08am PT
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You chop these and I will chop many other anchors that have been added in the past years that all you whinners allow to exist and use!
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:00am PT
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Add bolts to an existing route, then you threaten to chop. You are lame. Go rape, I mean rap, the Captain again no one seems to mind. The ethics in the Meadows are not the same as in the Valley. Hence the large number of run out face climbs. I do agree you should go chop the new anchors, yours first.
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THE MAD BOLTER©
climber
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Jul 28, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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I am sorry "scotter" but you confuse me with some one else.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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Man, you people are getting FAT and LAZY. Just finish the climb and walk off.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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> Did you ask ANY of the FAist for their permission to ADD ANY BOLTS ...
It wouldn't be hard to ask Bruce Morris - he's around.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 28, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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I guess I don't have a problem equiping existing bolted anchors for rapping on a route that people often get afternoon thunderstormed off. I'd far prefer rap hangers to chains though, so as not to encourage convenience rapping.
The previous gear anchor that was bolted is another story. In the grand scheme of things it's not such a big deal, but it does cross an ethical line. If you can build a bail anchor out of a couple nuts why bolt it?
So for the people willing to go chop it, is the vote to remove all chains or just the added bolts?
I just hope whatever happens it doesn't degrade the rock further, and whoever may chop it does it for the right reasons, the right way (patching holes, etc), instead of the wrong reasons, the wrong way (bashing hangers, etc.)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 28, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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Assuming the gear belay was solid, adding bolts crosses the line. The bolts must be terminated in a kind, caring and gentle manner.
I recently rapped off some nuts under an impending storm. What's the big deal?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jul 28, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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As for "getting permission"
He did talk to climbing school up there and they said no problem "with them".
So talk to "them".
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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"I recently rapped off some nuts under an impending storm. What's the big deal? "
Did you come next weekend on same route to clean up your colorful slings you left behind ?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 28, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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When I go back I'll install bolts and chains so no one ever again needs to leave a sling.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jul 28, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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Chief
He did not ask for permission. What and why do you need permission. He asked around first to see what people thought about the idea and no one said "That is a Bad Idea" He knew there would be some who objected. Obvious there are some.
Give the guy some respect, there might be a time "If you climb"
you might want them.
Do you ask for permission on what you do?
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coondogger
Trad climber
NH
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Jul 28, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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I can say for certain that convenience anchors will continue to creep in to the area if these are allowed to stay in place. In the 10 years since I first visited Lumpy Ridge, the area has changed dramatically. Convenience anchors exist on many routes reducing the commitment, the sense of adventure and self-reliance. People on both sides have valid arguments however each side is not discussing the same topic.
Sounds like Tuolumne has had a long-standing standard of care in preservation of existing lines and it has not been honored by MADBOLTER and others prior to MADBOLTERS recent acitvity. Convenience and lack of attention to preservation is going to continue to reduce the experience for every one of us.
Steven
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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They should be removed - enough said. Will someone that's spending time up there please take care of it.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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kev, why would you go climb this route and chop them by yourself instead of sending executive orders?
People would be talking " This is kev from ST who chopped those pussy bolts, he is real man"
Is this is what you want, or am I wrong?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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I am thinking more and more that someone who knows what they are doing should remove the retrobolted anchor the correct way asap.
Otherwise what could happen is someone decides to bail (for any number of reasons) and raps through another party leading it below them. The following parties ego gets enraged that someone is on the climb who "doesn't deserve to be", then they smash the hangers or chop/overtorque the bolts leaving the studs in the rock.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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I wonder what this discussion would be like if everyone who has never climbed the route in question (you know who you are) were to keep silent ?
:)
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
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Russ S.
climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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"Otherwise what could happen is someone decides to bail (for any number of reasons) and raps through another party leading it below them. The following parties ego gets enraged that someone is on the climb who "doesn't deserve to be", then they smash the hangers or chop/overtorque the bolts leaving the studs in the rock."
Who would be climbing CT carrying gear capable of smashing the hangers or chopping the bolts? Only someone going up to do that anyway???
This is really a simple case - does the FA'ist want them there or not.
Question: why don't "sports rappellers" establish their own route away from any climbing route. Then we could co-exist.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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I dont have a stake in this but I tend to agree with the thoughts put forth by Chief. These are convenience bolts. Back in the day, pro was used to save your ass whether you just were not up to it or due to weather. I dont really get the whole thing of giving back some dude's cams cuz they had to bail. It is all part of it.
And for the record this guy is credited as having put in the bail route on the Nose. While I have used much of that I really thought that the most credit should got to W.Harding. He put in the most innovative section. There is a pic of that on here somewhere, I think Werner posted it of a plaque indicating that the Nose FA team placed these bolts. FWIW
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Alexey,
First off, I am not climbing in TM this year because I'm putting up new routes elsewhere. Secondly there are many others in that area that will find this as a pox on the rock. Look at what Greg Barnes has said 'Let's see how long they last' (or something like that). Third maybe I'll have to take a break and go hit the meadows. I used to climb in TM quite frequently BTW...
If you go and put up your own route such that you can rap with a single 50 I wouldn't touch it. It's yours. Regardless of if I agree or not it is what you thought was the best thing to do. Hell as much as I think it sucks that people go and solo mellow fun stuff as FA's they did it so it stays.
This is no different than adding bolts to a route. It changes the commitment and character of the route. Look at the Dyke Route on Pywiack dome. If that had a bunch of bolts everyone would go do it but it doesn't. It took me a whole summer of working runout slab to get ready to lead that thing.
Have you ever put up a route? If not go try it. If you have how would you feel if someone came by and changed it?
Fet,
Yup it needs to be done right. Not a hack job. Rather than reread the whole thread what did he use for bolts anyone know? Rawls 5piece, wedge, etc.
All,
If it's only safety you're worried about then leave it as a double 60m rap route and bring two 60's. How about bringing a knife, quick links, a few leaver nuts, and some webbing with you when you climb? The knife can also be used to clean up tat left if someone bails, and the rest is what you need if you get hit by a storm or are over your head. I really don't get it.
What's next Fairview? It has almost no approach...How about West Crack? The route can be raped with two 60's bring a tag line and leave gear in an emergency.
kev
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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kev, I just gave suggestion to you, but I do not need your climbing resume
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 28, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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"Who would be climbing CT carrying gear capable of smashing the hangers or chopping the bolts? Only someone going up to do that anyway???"
If a member of the party hadn't left the ground they could bring a rock, if they had a wrench to tighten loose bolts they could overtorque and shear the bolt. Or they could simply return later. I've heard of or seen too many smashed hangers to put it past people with ego issues.
"Question: why don't "sports rappellers" establish their own route away from any climbing route. Then we could co-exist."
I would guess Madbolter was attempting to give to the community, to establish an emergency bail route (similar to the Nose), rather than a sport rappel route.
I think we shouldn't extrapolate this circumstance to other issues. Yes removing these bolts sends a message retrobolting will not be tolerated, but bolting the one gear anchor, when 5 other anchors are already bolted is hardly the same thing as adding pro bolts to a runout climb.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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Alexey,
And I just replied to your post. Seems like you wanted to know why I was posting about it. I think I answered that question. And I really don't follow you're climbing resume comment - it doesn't seem to logically follow from my reply.
Anyhow since I took the time to respond to your comments, care to comment on the questions posed to you in my reply?
kev
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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Fet,
Yes adding a bolted anchor is not the same as turning R into PG but there are similarities. Reguardless it does change the commitment level to some extent. More importantly though when/where does it stop?
Is it just me, that this didn't seem to be a problem a few years ago, or was I oblivious to the problems a few years back? There's always the chicken bolt issue that comes and goes at the top of cathedral. There was the FAist vs FAist thing on Hair Raiser Buttress a few years ago, but I don't seem to remember this being a problem at the Leap or TM in general as it appears now. Is the community changing or is the internet just stiring things up?
I must admit I am puzzled as to why one would post about doing this unless they wanted people to get stirred up about it.
Also I am for the recreation rappers putting in rap routes as long as the whole community has a general consensus on it.
kev
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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What does bail mean?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 28, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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I think it's kinda ironic that for years, almost nobody did the final pitch of Cryin' Time. It was a WAY runout 5.9 so everybody just walked off the ledge to the right.
Years later the well bolted variation last pitch went in. Everybody climbs the new, well bolted variation instead. Is the new variation a squeeze job? Maybe but you'd never know it cause the original route had so little pro you couldn't hardly tell where it was.
So now there it's cryin' time for bolt haters cause an anchor or two was added but those cryin' will probably not have the nards to climb the real, original route that they so champion.
Peace
Karl
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kellie
climber
Seattle
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Jul 28, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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Yeah, when did that new bolted last pitch go in, Karl? I climbed the route last week for the first time since 2001 and was surprised by both the rap anchors and the new bolted pitch. I wan't even sure if the last pitch was even part of the route or some other route.
Funny thing is in 2001 I *did* climb the last pitch (because the party in front of us dropped us their rope), and this time we walked off because we didn't know what that last pitch was and we just did the route as a quick hit after we arrived in the meadows in the afternoon and it was getting late and windy. But I never had any "nards" to begin with.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jul 28, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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I was tricked by the dual same name guys. HA!
Either way it has been an established route for years. Why is now OK to change it? Karl, I think the 5.9 r gets done more than you think, people climb all over that final head wall.
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Miwok
Trad climber
Mi Wuk Village
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Jul 28, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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Unbelievable. What a joke. Rapping on Lembert dome... Hmmm whats next, rap bolts on Pot Hole Dome. WTF!
Well said Chief. I couldn't have said it any better.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
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Jul 28, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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Nothing is more valuable than perfect - pristine.
I've been climbing in the Meadows for 37 years. I've probably climbed the rt 25 times.
Crying Time is a great route with a variety of challenges.
Let embrace the challenges. Even if it is one nut/cam anchor.
We alter everything we touch. The first team to do a route deals with the issue and it is a statement. Historical in time.
Why can't we leave the rock in as natural a state as possible? Experience and risk is part of the Tuolumne experience.
Yes, a part of the culture is changing. Changing the nature of the experience (however minor it seems) should not be left to somebody who is not cognisant of the areas history, or is looking for a convenience and expedience.
We don't have that many chances to do things right. We are intruding anyway.
So lets leave as little sign of our passage as possible.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 28, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Yeah this next generation doesn't respect the ideal of the old trad dads. Madbolter must be some 18 yo gym punk... lol.
Edit: this comment isn't directed at any particular post above. I just think it's funny that the concern over degradation of old time ethics was instigated by a dude that's been on the rock longer than most of us have been alive.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 28, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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> Retrobolting any route, regardless of RO or sh#t in the pants sphincter danger level, is NEVER acceptable.
Every belay on the Nose has 2 big bolts now. Hardly any of those belays were bolted originally.
Adding belay bolts vs. protection bolts are different things, although sometimes they are similar if the bolts are substitutes for fixed pitons.
When I did the (upper) Muir Wall in 1998, several belays above the Gray Bands had no fixed gear. I remember it was pretty cool setting up an anchor with 3 cams and hauling on it while my buddy jumared. Some years later, big bolts were added to a couple of these belays by Bruce Bindner, so he could haul heavier bags with a margin of safety. I felt a slight loss, but it made his adventure possible. Might I chop them if he was an unfriendly guy and they were easily accessible? Maybe. It's hard to draw a line sometimes.
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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Jul 28, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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I've climbed it and my vote is to chop.
p.s. Rapelling is a sport for some people????? WTF!!! that's got to be the lamest sport I've ever heard of.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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"If you, Karl and others, indeed accept this practice, than we should ablige and start to allow any whim retrobolter that places bolts on JB's or Nelsons solo "X" routes or Tobin's Magical Mystery Tour etc on the south side of Fairview, or any other route any where that one deems "unsafe" to make them "safer". How about BY??? Gotta make it safer as well..right?
Hell, we should just add five new bolts to the last pitch of Kamps/Couch's "The Great Pumpkin". Gotta make it into a real day 5.8....RIGHT?
WRONG!!!!!
Stay off the damn route if you can't hack it the way it was first put up...PERIOD!"
Upgrading belays to bolts has happened all over the valley. Big deal. It doesn't make the route one bit easier. Times have changed and routes that used to get climbed rarely have lines on them now. Perhaps you're offended that Bachar returned to put bigger bolts on BY. Makes just as much difference or more in the risk/commitment.
Even super uber trad lines like Sunshine have had belay bolts added by later parties of uber trad dudes. When CryinTime went up, it was one of the most bolted moderate lines in TM. It's a bolted route on a roadside crag. Can't quite see what there is to get our panties in a bunch about. It's just as runout as before.
Peace
Karl
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:04am PT
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ok, so with all this retro bolting why is it that the pine needle last pitch of Royal Arches after the rap route starts, there is only one old manky spinner bolt for a 100 ft lead, unless you take the upper 5.8 variation where you can place gear. Sure, its only 5.6(?) right, but when its covered in pine needles it might as well be 5.10. Just seems like that bolt is ripe for a upgrade. I know its a traverse pitch, blah, blah blah, but after seeing upgraded anchors all over the Valley, I was amazed to see that bolt on a trade route.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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"Crescent Arch or the Reg Route are just as close to the road as is Cry'n Time.
Guess if a crew goes up and adds a rap route on either, that is ok because they are within your line of thinking of changing times and their easy access? "
Neither are bolted routes. Cryin Time is, and most of the belays are already bolted.
The Reg route BTW does have a rap route from Crescent Ledge. It doesn't cross the Reg route and I wouldn't have a fit if somebody upgraded those anchors.
As for Daff Dome, BITD we used to do a very sketchy walk down off to the South until somebody installed, you guessed it, a bolted anchor, off to the East so a rappel down the back side allowed a much, much safer and easier descent which almost everybody now takes.
The world is not coming to an end. We are just old farts who like the kids to walk 5 miles to school in the snow like we did.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:14am PT
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T*R
Since you've enjoyed Lembert Dome so much, have you ever actually seen any obtrusive unnecessary bolts there, or only heard about them?
I think it's funny folks get so defensive and trad about bolting in TM but nobody ever raises an eyebrow about the the real proliferation of tightly bolted routes in TM.
You know, the 5.12 and 5.13 lines? For some reason, the great climbers seems to gravitate toward safety and lots of bolts and we all go right along with them, but everybody else is expected to risk deck falls for want of a single bolt that's been in the guidebook for a decade.
Seems like Cuckholding to me. If TM is supposed to be this runout trad area, why the double standard?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 03:47am PT
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Yes, so why haven't you been piping up about the proliferation of hard, much more closely bolted sport routes, some of which were put up by non-trad newbie climbers like Kauk?
(Edit: Deleted reference to Falkenstein since I thought it was his route but I guess it was Bruce Morris and some others who put it up)
And Tom R has been a valley fixture since way, way back. We're not talking about young wippersnappers disregarding the past and changing everything to light sauce.
Things change, fight it all you want but don't make double standards about it. What about the real extra TM bolts? The Hard Sport routes that are out of character with everything from the past?
Not as easy to stand up to Kauk, Herbert, and the masters of Stone, even though the principles you are exposing are far more transgressed by some of their creations
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:02am PT
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I'd argue that adding Anchor bolts isn't the same as retrobolting.
When the Central Pillar anchors went from pins to bolts, it was hardly a retrobolt.
Just my opinion.
As for your distinction between bolted sport routes and adding a couple rap stations to an existing bolted route, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to defend the trad, committed, bold, bolt-adverse tradition on one hand, and yet ignore the biggest departures from that ethic.
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Sometimes we discuss the concept of a modified "first ascent principle",
where there is a "statute of limitations" on what the FA people can do to the route.
After a period of time, the route would become "community property" and should be left as is -
as if it is the property of all the people who have climbed it in that state over those years. Otherwise the FA people may be granted too many rights.
Of course nobody has signed up to agree to such rules.
They are more like ways to think about sharing the rock, having shared experiences, and having a diversity of routes to choose from.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:26am PT
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T*R writes
"so you can agree to disagree with him, but with me, you have to attack my climbing ability? thanks for discriminating"
I'm just suggesting you haven't seen offensive bolts. Is it true? You say you hang at Lembert.
I'm actually defending you, as a moderate rather than elite climber. Should you do Cryin Time (perhaps with a more experienced leader) it might save a bit of misery for you if you had the bolted anchors. I seriously doubt you'd notice the extra 3-4 bolts in the area.
So what I'm saying is that your opinions are influencing folks to remove hardware that was intended just for folks like you. Somebody may suffer as a result of you chiming in here when they shiver in the icy rain looking for a final rap to the ground. So be careful what you say
Peace
karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:46am PT
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Aside from all the arguments, pro or con, about adding anchors to "Crying Time Again", what's actually happened? I tried to talk to Chris Falkenstein today at the YMS, but couldn't find him. He told me he was going to climb the route on Monday afternoon, July 27th, and take a look at the anchor bolts that were added, but as I said, I couldn't find him. Had to drive back home to the Bay Area for a contract. What's actually happened? Just wondering!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:09am PT
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Nice that he was going to check it out in person. I sent him an email and linked the thread. Let's see what he thinks.
Chief-Disagreement about what bolts are evil, OK or inbetween is endemic to our sport. It good that we've shared our views even if we don't see eye to eye.
Regarding the weather, you can start up a route in TM in perfectly clear skies and get rained off. Happened to me plenty of times and on Crying time, the rain often approaches from your blind side.
Another thing that bothers me about convenient bolt choppers, they love to chop bolts that are convenient to get to but not the ones that take effort to get rid of. I can't believe there is a retrobolt on Texas Flake that's remained for years.
Just making sure we know that we are irrational creatures that take excuses to vent our emotions that just get pent up.
But perhaps I just think there needs to be a devil's advocate. I'm used to the dangers and challenges of Tuolumne and those risks often inspire people use my help to get them started on the area.
Peace
karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:10am PT
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Bruce,
Jim Curl (aka del cross) climbed it and reported this today:
------
We finally got back and climbed the route. Such a fun line!
Near as I could tell there are three "new" rappel points (I last climbed the route in 2007). The first is atop pitch 1: That anchor used to be a pin and bolt and now there are two bolts with chains (the pin is still there). The second is at the end of pitch 3: formerly a gear anchor, now two bolts and chains. And the last is in the middle of pitch 5: the third lead bolt is actually a two bolt rap anchor. That last one seemed kind of weird to me except that I guess it's lined up better with the rap anchor on the summit. I really don't remember if it was there or not two years ago.
------
[Edit:] Pitch 5 is the one before the final headwall, with 5 bolts in 70'.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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The practical problem with this is that people will rap down, over, and through other parties. Just imagine the quality experience of leading the fifth pitch only to find some clusterfu&* retreat operation mid-way up at one of your protection bolts, getting hit with ropes and all the other joys having a party rap off from above.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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Near as I could tell there are three "new" rappel points . . . . the last is in the middle of pitch 5: the third lead bolt is actually a two bolt rap anchor.
Nice.
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jack splat
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
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You "trad" idiots.
It's a sport climb, for chrissakes. That's why you like it so much.
Dummies.
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jack splat
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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You guys should really try climbing in some areas other than california, open up your small minds a little.
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Andrew F
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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Just an anecdote. We did West Crack the other day in somewhat variable weather. You can bail easily from the first two pitches 'cause there's 2-bolt anchors with rings at the 1st belay and very close to the 2nd gear belay. But after that, you'd have to leave your own stuff to get off if the skies opened up. We weren't sure what the weather was going to do, some big clouds floating around, and we had to make the judgement call that we could get to the top fast enough to avoid the t-storms that were coming in. Turned out we were fine but it was a learning experience and if every belay was bolted w/chains the route would've had a completely different character for us, less commitment and the lesson wouldn't have been learned.
I'm not saying that there isn't room for routes with less commitment & more bolts. But it's up to the FA to decide the level of commitment - once the route is there the statement has been made & should be respected as it is. When we decided to do West Crack we knew we'd have to leave gear if we bailed on the higher pitches & took that into account in our decision to climb the route. There are routes out there that you can bail from with no problems and there are routes out there where you'd be royally screwed if you had to come down high on the route. It's up to the climber to pick an appropriate route for themselves & deal with the consequences if they're wrong. By adding bolts all that was done was that extra bit of adventure was destroyed for everybody who follows. Go climb something else less committing instead, there are plenty of routes out there for every level of adventure.
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blr
climber
socal
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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I was actually at the Lembert parking area shortly after Tom put these bolts in. He told me about the deed and I could tell he was expecting a "thank you", but instead, I told him that he shouldn't have done it. Tom may have done climbers a service in the past, but this one was a mistake.
-This route is not a sport route.
-All arguments that rely on the fact that other routes have been bolted in whatever fashion don't really address the issue of bolts being added to THIS route.
-For those who make these bad arguments, would you be okay with a new bolted rap route down the B-Y, a bolted route even more visible to the road than CTA, with distances as short as 39 feet between anchors? True, the world won't end because of these retrobolts, but it won't end when they are chopped either.
I wonder if any of the people arguing for leaving the anchors practice guiding in Yosemite? Maybe thinking of a low commitment, high quality route to bring newbs up?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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"-For those who make these bad arguments, would you be okay with a new bolted rap route down the B-Y...
There are well bolted sport routes very near the B-Y already.
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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> I say that a well advertised and then high traffic'd rap line should be completely independent of any trade route if possible.
I agree. Like climbing the Central Pillar of Frenzy and rapping down the Grand Wazoo and Bircheff Williams to the left.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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Half the problem is there are idiots like Jack Splat, who's probably fat, climbing. Dood, it aint a sport climb.It is well protected by TM standards and at times over bolted but it still isn't a sport climb. Not all bolted routes are sport climbs.
I don't care that much about the rap line, although it does seem silly when all you had to do was bring a second rope, but adding a rap station in the middle of a pitch is poorly thought out.
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coondogger
Trad climber
NH
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Two important points. This issue is not only about this moment and this route. It is about what happens next year and the season after when someone else does this to an established climb or descent option. This isn't the last time that this will take place and it is really important to the spirit for the spirit of climbing and for a standard of care and preservation of the area.
The second vital issue is the input of the First Ascensionist. That too is a slippery slope. Because people get older, injured and less willing to take risk, consult from first ascensionists is often bad for the area and preservation. Many times in our community first ascensionists have gone back in later years and really screwed up climbs with extra bolts or allowed fixed gear to be installed.
Steven
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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MAD BOLTER,
Why not post BEFORE you decide to drill?
The fact that you use this medium to announce your deed only suggests that you understand the ability of the Supertopo Forum.
It does reach the people that use these areas and it does create positive or negative influences depending on how it is used.
Use it to inform and create value by allowing the climbing community choices.
-wayne
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 30, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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Good to know that the pin I placed in 1975 for an anchor at the top of Pitch 1 is still in place there. Just as long as no one takes it out I'm happy. Ancient fixed pins give any route a real 'vintage' feel.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 30, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Ancient fixed pins give any route a real 'vintage' feel.
sweet!
i really miss the manky old fixed pins that used to protect everything back in the eighties. and the 1/4" studs with plumber's tape for a hanger?
we should bring that sh#t back.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 30, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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DMT, nice post. I am laughing robustly. Always the voice of reason...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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Upgrading mank is one thing, "modernizing" a route is something else.
I'd hate to see all the old bold routes modernized for the masses. And if you aren't willing to leave them alone, for the few that can sack up to handle them, where do you place the line between ones that should be modernized, and those that should be left alone?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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I recall a kinda 5.12 climber telling a pretty much 5.11+ climber that "he didn't climb hard enough to have an opinion" on a bolting matter.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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T*R
This is your ego bleeding here. Nobody said your opinion didn't matter, and you are the one calling the posts BS. Tell me how/why they are BS.
I'm just asking "Have you seen any inappropriate bolts" since you say you spend a lot of time there.
How many times have people judged you based on an outside description of your life while, if they actually hung out with you, they would find their assumptions are baseless? Just asking, are you basing your opinions here on second hand ideas, or a direct experience?
Even if a 5.7 climber were dragged up some of these routes, they would have some standing for their opinion. But if you haven't seen anything, what are you basing your opinion on? I've done the route a dozen or two times, doesn't mean my opinion is the correct ethical stance (because that's subjective, there IS NO correct stance) but at least I've seen what we're talking about.
There is plenty of room for argument on either side of these issues. The world won't collapse if the bolt stay or go. But if you have an opinion, defend it based on more than pure reaction.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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Nope, and a lot of people bought into demonizing the Russians based on propaganda labeling them as communists and that that was somehow evil.
Peace
Karl
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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Karl, Mad Bolter, t*r, et al
I think DMT is right and that all this is getting way too old even for the taco. As Karl says if they stay or go a couple is no big deal. I think there's been way to much energy put into this thread that could be spent better out climbing, etc.
We all keep beating the hell out of this almost dead horse. Let's just let it die a nice quiet death.
kev
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:20pm PT
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Kev: It is a big deal. Slippery slope and all that.
But DMT is right.... less talk, more action.
If anyone feels that strongly about it, just go chop them.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Russ,
Just trying to get these threads to end. I think people have been made aware of things...
kev
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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These "threads" have been going on since before there was an internet.... that is the beauty of it... it never ends. The one real constant in our sad, nomadic, unimportant lives... Bolt chopping!
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Russ,
Fair enough - point taken.
kev
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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Nobody is ever done talking about it. You can check out, but you can never leave!
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 30, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
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"The one real constant in our sad, nomadic, unimportant lives... Bolt chopping! "
LOL
So James Earl Jones was wrong in Field of Dreams, it isn't about baseball.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Maybe it's more Shias and Sunnis.
FYI: I just Deleted reference to Falkenstein in one of my posts much higher on this thread since I thought it was his route but I guess it was Bruce Morris and some others who put it up. Sorry!
Peace
Karl
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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Damn it Karl,
Now I've got to go think about the Shias and Sunnis bolting ethics! Wait what about the Kurds?....
cheers,
kev
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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Who knew the naming of the route was very apropos.
whaaa...
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blr
climber
socal
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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"-For those who make these bad arguments, would you be okay with a new bolted rap route down the B-Y...
"There are well bolted sport routes very near the B-Y already."
Is "very near" the same thing as ON? Can you clip these "very near" bolts that are on separate routes while climbing B-Y?
How long has this route existed for? How many people have died from lack of the new rap anchors? If you're worried about the weather, two ropes will easily get you off this climb without the new anchors.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 28, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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?? but this reminds me i need to get my overworked arse up to sugarloaf and chop those pesky bolts next to the crack.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jul 28, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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drama..
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 28, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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The hangers were removed last year. Pretty sure the bolts have been dealt with but regardless there's a local takin care of the situation...
kev
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 28, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
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People would be talking, " This is kev from ST who chopped those pussy bolts, he is real man"
BWHAAAAAaaAHHaahahahA!!!!!
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 28, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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Mucci,
It's amazing what one can accomplish with a simple adjustable wrench ;)
kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 28, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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Dave,
It's my understanding that he talked to someone from YMS AFTER they were installed and he was told that it was BOGUS. This is all old news though - not really a point in rehashing - they've been gone a while. And if they return I'm sure the hangers will be relocated and put to good use.
kev
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 28, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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well there goes the commitment aspect of this route. I think past 3rd or 4th pitch you were committed otherwise bailing off your own gear. sucky.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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If the hangers were removed and the bolts left, than a total pussy thief stole them.
If the bolts were removed and holes patched it's cool.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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I climbed this on Saturday (July 31, 2010)...
While linking the last two pitches, there is a runout section where my partner said an anchor has been chopped, before the 10a variation finish. I was looking around for the next bolt and only saw the anchors off to the left (maybe 15', for the 5.9 R finish?) and another bolt probably 20' up. It was pretty easy ground but a bit runout to the first in that string of bolts. Which all appear to be buttonheads.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Greg Barnes,
were the closely placed bolts chopped? It's reasonable to speculate
chipped holds at that very vertical section, though 3 point contact
was possible. If so how many are left? I don't know anything about the recent retrobolted rap route (and its apparent chopping?), other than what I posted a while back, namely that I removed an old 1/4" bolt with Leeper at the big ledge before the crux pitch around 1999 or so - the bolt was right next to a bomber crack, and people were rappelling off the single bolt.
I assume you mean the tightly bolted 5.9 section of the 4th pitch? Or are you talking about the 10a finish (the "McDevitt finish")? If you are talking about the 4th pitch, the bolts were original, and replaced by SAR folks around 1998. I do not think there is any evidence to support any chipping or anything, that was simply a tightly bolted section from the first ascent.
As far as bolting, in my experience it is not "reasonable to speculate" in any case. That's how so many bolt debates get started - with misinformation based upon speculation, instead of facts!
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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The hangers were removed by a local who initially didn't have the tools to remove the bolts (he found then and only had a wrench-wasn't planning on seing new anchors...people don't climb with an expectation to see retro bolts). Since then the bolts have been properly taken care of. Not really sure why this thread is still going but....
kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Greg,
I just realized I hadn't pushed the 'post to reply' button, just pushed it and saw your post (i.e read my post as posted before yours). Anyhow I think the comment directed at you is a troll.
kev
EDIT
No it is a troll...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I think Weld_It could help here. He could weld up some bolt/hanger combinations that would be really hard to remove. Maybe with some kind of flange in different colors, so that gym weenies could clip everything but if you only clip the green botls, you must have real balls of steel.
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| Messages 1 - 159 of total 159 in this topic |
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