Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
|
Prof. Glen Stewart is the director of the Santa Cruz Predatory Bird Research Group. His email address is:
gstewart@ucsc.edu
I just sent him a letter inquiring about the Access Fund, the Summit Rock working group, and the SCPBRG partnering to effect some kind of compromise solution to the Summit Rock raptor closure issue.
"falconet@ucsc.edu" wouldn't work for me.
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2010 - 03:29am PT
|
Professor Stewart emailed me today and stated:
"I think there is good precedent for allowing climbing during the portion of the year when the rock is not in use by peregrines--essentially, August through December. Falcons begin courtship in January, lay eggs in March, fledge young in June, and cease to defend the site sometime in July when the young have moved on. To the best of my knowledge, routes in Yosemite and Kings Canyon are closed for only the portion of the year that falcons are present, and some (all?) routes are left open until biologists confirm that they are being used. Perhaps this would be a useful compromise to pursue at this site."
We are scheduled to talk further when he returns from some lenghty travels that are to begin next Tuesday.
From what Professor Stewart says above, it certainly sounds as though Santa Clara County Parks Department is trying to BS us. Their closure certainly doesn't seem to be based on the habits of Peregrine falcons.
|
|
Wack
climber
Dazevue
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2010 - 06:52am PT
|
"Interesting too how Stu Langdoc, who used to be the self-appointed head of the so-called "Castle Rock Climbers Committee", is also on the board of directors of the SSPOA."
Please show a little sympathy for Stu. Life has been difficult for him since Miles retired. It's winter, cold and now Stu doesn't have a place to warm his nose.
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
|
Professor Stewart sent me the following email reply this morning:
"I would be happy to visit the site sometime this spring, Bruce. But without seeing it, I believe the closure is unprecedented (year around) and would urge you to reference the way other parks have addressed this (with our endorsement). Unfortunately, a key contact in Yosemite, Jeff Mauer, died in a climbing accident last fall and I am not sure who would be best to contact now about the way they handle it. With a little time, I can find the biologist at Kings Canyon where the "Monk" is subject to closure when falcons nest there. There are probably other examples that I am not aware of--places where the climbing community has worked with park mgt as you are trying to do for an equitable solution. --glenn"
Pretty good news. At least something is finally happening on this front.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
|
Those good news, Bruce.
|
|
R.B.
Big Wall climber
Ripped from Oysters
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
|
First, I am not an attorney, nor do I live in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia; I have meet with the USFS in the past about bolting and Wilderness areas. Let's just say that it's like "the horse with the blinders eating the hay." (government agencies see Black and White ... and no grayscales)
However, he's my penny's worth of advice on this peregrine thing.
Through the Freedom of Information Act
Request via certifed mail return receipt requested ... to the government agency contact information you can find on the posted sign.
Request certified copies of the following information:
1) Biological Study that lists the areas in questions.
2) The county or state ordinances (or resolutions, code, etc.) that lists the areas in question as "closed"
3) Look at the history of the agencies decisions. Remember, there is a difference between government Law vs. Policys that are set by "interpretation" of a comprehensive plan or document.
you may be prepared to challenge the closures based on the authority to do so based on ???? Joe rangers arbitrary decision because they saw a bird there ... heck make them PROVE it!
And lastly, last time I heard the Peregrine is no longer a "listed" endangered species ... check federal websites to see what species are listed in the climbing areas.
Also, be willing to challenge the closure in court ... because you can't sue the goverment unless you have been harmed, (meaning arrested or ticketed) ... then you can sue (go after) them based on their decision making.
If they are pulling the regs out of their rear ends, then they will be left with just that flapping in the wind.
Just a suggestion, easy for this armchair mountaineer to do.
I am not advocating violating a legal law or regulation here, but I am encouraging a little bit of homework before you act or do anything!
Wheres the Access committee when you need it?
FYI - Granite Mountain in the Granite Mountain Wilderness in the Prescott N.F., Arizona has a seasonal climbing peregrin closure ... I believe from Feb 1st to July 15th (not sure this hasn't changed) This is a Federal Closure.
 just food for though.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
|
R.B., good info. The Access Fund is involved in this matter, it's in it's preliminary stage right now. They are 'probing' the situation. I can tell you Bruce and myself have talked to them about it. They are helping!
|
|
R.B.
Big Wall climber
Ripped from Oysters
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
|
Blu ... Glad to give the free advice ... but would caution that what I said above is the "Big Guns" approach.
I have found that it is best to work personal with whomever is the decision maker ... do what you need to do to educate them ... You often will strike a compromise between the two sides "more flies w/ honey than vinegar" ... but be prepared to pull the trigger on the big GUN if you need to.
It is sad that GOVT often puts everything else over people ... We have rights as taxpayers to use public lands and when the GOVT takes away those rights without due process on the decision making and the aftermath ... it's a crying shame! Maybe a reflection of the times we live in.
Good Luck!
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
|
Actually, the agency involved in the closure is Santa Clara County Parks Department, not the Federal government. The Access Fund regional coordinator involved in this case is Paul Minault and he's an attorney in San Francisco. He's consuled taking the talk and negotiate approach with County Parks, RB. I get a sense that the reason County Parks closed Summit is that it harmonizes real well with the Sempervirens Fund's vision of the Skyline Ridge Area as a bio-coridor and "people-free" zone if you will. There's big money behind amalgamating all the State and County Parks along the Skyline and US9 (Big Basin etc.) into a giant 210,000 acre area forming a bio-corridor from the Skyline to the Pacific. The agencies up there regard climbers, with their penchant for exploreing and developing outlying crags, as a bunch of nasty, buzzing flies in their eco-ointment. That's just my personal opinion though.
I've sent all of Professor Stuart's emails along to Paul so at the next meeting of our Summit Rock working group Paul can tell us how to better coordinate our approach to County Parks. Don't think it's quite time for a civil disobediance test case. I sense they won't really be able to kick Professor Stewart off of Summit and if climbers are along helping him with his assessment of the situation, we'll have some leverage that can't be easily denied.
Incidentally, there's a new article on Castle Rock out in the latest issue of Bay Nature magazine that makes it sound as if climber-Ranger relations are just ducky up there. As a donor and contributor to Bay Nature, I think I'm going to write a letter to the editor pointing out some of the contradictions and ironies buried in that story. But that's a whole different kettle of fish!
By the way, R.B., I don't think there ever was any wildlife biologist consulted about the peregrine closure. Think County Parks just did it to be nasty. You'll notice on the closure sign that the word "climbers" is never used. Instead they are referred to as "users" as if to suggest that climbing isn't recognized as a legitimate activity. I notice that State Parks and County Parks will do anything but say "climber" or "rock climber" as if the very word sticks in their craw (no offense to the peregrines!).
|
|
karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
|
I for one can't wait to tackle all the routes at summit rock. Before we all climb there once it reopens, can we spearhead a climber based clean up of this ravaged location? How do we get all the paint off the rock? The glass needs to be cleaned up as well. If we climbers are there more often, maybe less vandals will abuse the area. Good luck, and don't give up on the valley of stone. I want to try the 5.10 offwidth siezures palace. What's it like Bruce?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
|
How do we get all the paint off the rock?
Sandblaster!
I have heard UC Santa Clara used to sandblast Guadalupe's Roadside rock.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
|
The last clean up was about 3 years ago. It's actually not too bad right now relative to how bad it has been in the past. The graffiti however is another story....There are chemicals specifically targeted for graffiti removal (and prolly not too environmentally heinous) and I am sure if it (Summit Rock) were reopened and someone would donate the $ for the chemicals that the labor would be free.
Alot of the glass problem there occurs at night/dusk when there are no climbers there due to parking restrictions or late afternoon during the week when there are few or no climbers there. Although they will make passes through the parking lot and ticket you near and just after dusk, they rarely check out the area late at night which is when I suspect the local punks are f-in up the area. Basically a larger climber presence wouldn't help (but a cleanup sure wouldn't hurt). Another interesting fact is that there used to be a large oil drum garbage can that the a-holes did use when they didn't toss their crap over the cliff. Unfortunately along with the wonder save the bird closure they pulled the thrash can - friggin county idiots...
kev
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
|
"Seizure's Palace" is nice after you get into the OW. It's going out the rattly fist crack to get there that's the real bugger. Also depends on if you lead or TR the thing. There's a moment at the start on the lead where you could hit the deck if you don't place the pro just right.
Luckily for me, I didn't lead it: Mike Hernandez did and still talks about it to this day.
Reopening the Valley of Stone is going to take an act of the Almighty I'd say. It's going to be a long, long time given the level of hostility of the State's Park rangers and administration.
Why not M&Ms and the Pole Cat Cliff? Absolutely no reason on earth they should be shut down other than pure meanness.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
|
RB, that's actually not such great advice and taking an advesarily line is not likely to do anything you couldn't accomplish by other means and it also won't do anything to enhance climber / land manager relations.
If there is a Peregrine closure its because some raptor biologist has advocated for it based on the site being a known nesting location. There is pretty much no likelyhood that a raptor closure would be arbitrary or in effect without a raptor biologist being involved with the process - you just need to figure out who they are and try to work with them. Also, authority for the closure is available under migratory bird statutes and state law regardless of the Peregrine's ESL status - it's pointless to challenge them in court as you'll simply bring down the weight of the Audubon Society on climbers in the process and that's legal and political trouble that climbers definitely don't need.
The best route to go is to find out who is managing the Raptor closure and find out if the site is actively monitored during the closure. Down Cali way there really is no need for a closure past July 15th or August 1st at the very latest. You can also get involved with the monitoring of the raptors on the site if it is being monitored or possibly even learn to do it yourselves.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
|
Why not M&Ms and the Pole Cat Cliff?
Are they closed? I climbed 'electric...(something)' at Pole Cat a couple of years ago. That's right underneath the trail right?
It wouldn't surprise me if the 'party-kids' are still going out to Summit despite the closure. The signage never stopped them in the past, prior to the bird closure.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
|
healyje,
You should check out this thread in full and search the taco for other summit rock closure threads. I'm not going to re-detail them all here but suffice it to say its not a temporary closure not does it follow any standard raptor closure standards. I think then (after seeing the whole story) what has been said here might make more sense...
kev
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2010 - 02:46am PT
|
bluering, M&Ms and Pole Cat Cliff are technically closed, but no one is out there monitoring to keep anyone off. Both of these cliffs are supposedly in the San Lorenzo Nature Preserve, at least according to the State Parks Castle Rock map. I think you can get to M&Ms without walking past one of the no public access signs, so does that mean it's okay to go there? I think so, but the Rangers probably don't.
There are all kinds of holes in the No Public Access rule within the Nature Preserve. In the version of the Master Plan adopted back in 2001, there is no prohibition against "free roaming" in the outer reaches of the park. What does that mean exactly? There's "No Public Access" to the Nature Preserve, but "free roaming" is allowed there? Your guess is as good as mine.
It's just a document that lets State Parks do anything they want to do, as they see fit.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2010 - 06:07am PT
|
I read through this and the other thread so a couple of comments:
1) Lots of mis/disinformation on Peregrines and Peregrine/Human interaction. Climbers induce territorial and defensive stress in Peregrines and will cause them to abandon nests before eggs are laid, before chicks are hatched, and more uncommonly before chicks have fledged. Peregrine adaption to urban environs is significantly differernt from behavioral, territorial, and defensive (stress) perspectives, they don't interact with humans much, and they have a very high mortality rate in cities.
2) From google maps satellite view it's hard to tell, but Summit rock doesn't appear to be a very large formation. If it is small, then a complete closure would be the norm as opposed to a partial closure.
3) Confirm whether the closure is for Peregrines, and if it is, whether a raptor biologist was involved or consulted. If they were, find out who. Again, there is no justification for a Cali Peregrine closure past August 1st and I'd argue July 15th from what I've seen of the NorCal fledging dates the past five years.
4) You guys need to sort out your issues - bad rangers, agro adjacent homeowners, parking issues, trail planning, general wildlife closures, Peregrine closures, baises against climbers, etc. I hear a lot of mixed ranting - maybe lots of it is legitimate - but mixing it all up versus dealing with them as individual issues isn't going to be doing you any favors.
5) Either attempt to be a bit more detached and less angst-driven / advesarial when working the issues or work with experienced AF staffers and lawyers who can be a bit more objective. Have you contacted Paul Minault (Bay Area Regional Coordinator), Jason Keith (AF Policy Coordinator), or Joe Sambataro (AF Access Director)?
[ P.S.: And yes, my local crag is similarly shutdown for a Peregrine closure from February 1st - July 15th. In 2009 the chicks fledged late so we didn't open until August 1st and our NW rains pretty much shut us down by October 15th - so we had a two and half month season for the year. And trust me, no one wants to climb there every possible day of the year more than I do - it's why I'm involved there. ]
|
|
Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2010 - 11:13am PT
|
healyje - you're hired!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2010 - 11:30am PT
|
they don't interact with humans much, and they have a very high mortality rate in cities.
Tell that to the one that nests every year on the top of San Jose city hall!
Healyje, thanks for your input but you haven't been paying close enough attention. Paul IS involved. So is Joe.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!