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BW
climber
Big Pine, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 8, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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Hope I have tough enough leathery skin to take all the potential critique I may receive, but I found a few nice sport lines I'd like to make. And since I'm totally new to this, having never drilled a bolt in my life, was wondering if I could get some sage advice. First, if anyone is willing to sell me a hand bolt drill for cheap, I would be eternally grateful. Willing to pay up to $50, good bits included or cheaper if not. Second, one of the lines has a bit of trad. I'd like to honor the rock and route as much as possible. The bolts in the area in question are spaced about a body length between each clip (for a tall person). After the crack how soon is too soon to place a bolt on the face?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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john hansen
climber
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I personally think that you should learn much more about climbing before you place any bolts.
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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I agree with JH.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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I'm quite n00bish myself and having wondered the same thing, I decided that once I know enough that I have no doubts about the right way to establish a new route, then I will consider buying the gear to do so. Prudence is the better part of valor (or in this case innovation).
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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If you have to ask......
then don't drill.
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BW
climber
Big Pine, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Perhaps I should have clarified. Not a newbie climber in the least... In the main, I'm looking for a cheap drill kit. Yeah, probably right about "just asking, is asking for it, therefor shouldn't put up a new line. Probably shouldn't have asked about the distance between trad gear and a bolt. I think I'll figure that out when I get there. My bad. I suppose the real question then, up for discussion is when the grasshopper is allowed to jump, as in putting up a new route. (the answer is, of course, by asking, she's not ready.)
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papa_eos
Trad climber
conejo valley, california
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I seriously would get an experienced partner to help you in this endeavor. As said earlier "if you have to ask..........."
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Why the hell aren't you out there climbing instead? CLIMB! Don't start trying to create a melody when you can only play four notes. Learn more notes.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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On the other hand, you could listen to all the old guys here and never get around to doing anything.
Use your head. You'll figure it out.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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If you have TRed the route, then do that some more and figure out exactly where the bolts should be so that you have a good stance or hold to clip from. The rest is easy.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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its interesting that now 'trad' has come to mean any section of rock that takes gear. I was climbing at mission gorge and looking up an interesting looking route as another climber was packing up.
'is this route any good?' i ask.
'yeah fun route, it starts out all trad, then you get a few clips, then some more trad till the chains. not much trad, like half trad.'
-_0
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Having placed exactly two bolts (in Yos) in my life, I'll say this: placing a bolt is time consuming, tiring, and a pain in the ass. However, if you are gonna go bolting lines do this:
1) Get a hammer, drill, and some bolts and go find some boulder that nobody cares about. Set aside a good 2-3 hours and try placing two or 3 bolts. Its takes for effing ever in granite.
2) Go read up on the topic. There are volumes of books on the topic at your local REI - just go in the store and read the parts about bolting. John Long's books are great.
3) Try to meet someone who has placed bolts before. Other people are going to blindly trust these bolts - you want a TR anchor to rip out on someone? More to the point, do you want these to rip out when *you* are hanging on them?
As for the "who wants to sell me a bolt kit for $50" - bolting is expensive - bits wear down and sometimes break. Bolts, hangers, and chains are expensive as well.
Just make sure you've practiced what you're doing before you go sticking a bolt in that is gonna hold yours or someone else's life.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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TR the shite out of it, mark it with a Sharpie, borrrow a drill, bolt it, walk away unsatiated and empty...
Then others get the joy out of "really" climbing it:-)
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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i'm with rwedgee on this
> If you have to ask...
but good on you for pausing long enough to ask, pausing to think about it. much respect. too many don't.
and listen, the day will likely come when drilling a bolt will be the right thing to do. exactly when depends on where you're at in the game, and where you're climbing.
i'll offer you 2.5 pieces of advice:
[1a] first talk to the most respected old dads (and/or moms) who frequent where you climb. if you are looking at some entirely new turf (doesn't seem the case here -- as you mentioned exisisting trad lines), then talk to the most respected old dads/moms who climb nearby. if you don't know who they are, you need to climb there more until you do. if you are pushing new lines where bolts are appropriate -- you'll get not only their blessing but almost certainly good advice as to where to place them and how. they might well lend you a drill. perhaps more.
[1b] if your intended line overlaps, crosses, or even gets kinda close to an existing boltless trad line, talk to someone on the FA/FFA team. a sign of respect to them; and one they will respect you for. more good info, and likely more mentors.
~~~
[2] if you are short on enough bucks to even buy a drill, now's not the time to drill. for placing a bolt is a big responsibility, in many ways. where and when are for the local dads/moms to help you with. doing it as well as can be done is something more universal. any bolt you place will have your name on it forever (well, surely for decades). you need to be sure you can place them right; and by extension also know when they aren't quite right.
and this simply takes practice. practice putting them in, and equally important practice wrenching them back out. you gotta do both to learn what actually good actually is.
obviously such practice should never be done on rock that is even remotely climbable. what our generation sees as pointless fossilized bird sh!t might someday become a local treasure. so practice on as big a chunk of scree as you and your pals can carry.
my mentor in this arena took me to a road cut, most all of it crazy scary loose and all of it against the law to climb. there he had me place bolts while standing on one foot on, well, like a 5.7 foothold. then he went at it with a big crowbar and gave me a grade. took me like 5 tries to get a B- (to date i've yet to get an A, though on occassion he has granted me a B+ on bolts on actual lines).
may you have such a mentor. if not, you gotta do the work yourself. place some bolts from an awkward stance (even if you rap-bolt, this will prove useful) then see what it takes to rip it out.
remember this (if nothing else among my prattle): any bolt you place will have your name on it, forever. so learn how to get it just right. having an old dad/mom show you how is a huge plus. and unless you are in like Togo or something, there are such souls nearby quite ready to show you all the tricks.
~~~
finally, quality bolts are expensive. not hugely so, but not cheap. the days of using construction site stuff is over (well, should be -- because i said so). figure at least 10 to get the trick down so you're sure the bolts with your name on them are as solid as they possibly can be. add to that the cost of a quality hand drill and 3 or 4 bits to burn as you learn not to lean off them and, well, not super pricey -- but not especially cheap either.
i use Petzl, older and smarter dads/moms might have better ideas. listen to them.
so save up your rupees for the right gear, and enough of it. talk to the respected old dads/moms where you climb. and more than anything else -- remember that any route you do, and every bolt you place, has your name on it. sure, it's an art more than a science and weird sh!t can and perhaps will happen.
but they're your bolts, on your route. think in those terms and talk to the old dads/moms and you will likely get it right.
again, good on you for asking, for thinking about it.
^,,^ (michael)
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Mojede: TR the shite out of it, mark it with a Sharpie, borrrow a drill, bolt it, walk away unsatiated and empty...
Then others get the joy out of "really" climbing it:-)
^^^
Or just start up from the base armed with appropriate tools, skill and the knowledge to use them and see where you get.
You might surprise yourself, you might not but you're guaranteed to have one hell of an adventure. So WTF you waiting for???
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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a sharpie, eh? how about a dot of chalk that isn't permanent (just in case you decide 4" one way is better). I'm just sayin'.....
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jstan
climber
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BW:
From another thread:
"Yep - gotta love the webz where you can go from anonymous nobody to internationally known moron in mere seconds."
Tough crew here. Watch yourself.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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dam.... i use to be anonymous.... now look what happened.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Even the local curmudgeons seem unlikely to stoop to bolting a newbie. I'm not sure how one goes about bolting a newbie, but however it's done, it sounds like it would be painful and permanent. We like our off-colour humour here, but there are limits.
However, if you want advice about bolting a new (sport) route, rather than bolting a newbie who does new (sport) routes, we may be able to help. Although the advice may seem a little direct at times.
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alex chisholm
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Theres some good advice here, IMHO finding a mentor/ group of vets to teach/ taunt you is ideal.
Among other ideas listed above these things stick out in my head:
-Plan on placing 5-10 bolts in small rocks (15-25lb) this will allow you to get the feel for logistics.
-Remove those same bolts, funk out all pieces, good practice and you can inspect everything after.
-Use a torque wrench when installing bolts. at least until you can feel the required ammt of torque.
-Pay extra for climbing specific anchor bolts (petzl, fixe, etc) always use stainless steel (hangers and bolts must be same material ie no plated with stainless. inhibits electrolysis)
-Search for all written info on the subject of bolting.
Not just the mechanics of bolting but the ETHICS and STYLE of placing bolts. so much has been written about the subject, and it really shouldnt be taken lightly.
-Plan on wasting more than $50 coz yer gonna need hangers, top anchors (dont skimp on the lowering hooks) torque wrench, hammer drill,maybe a rotohammer aaaaahhhhh, drill bits, bottle brush, hose, cleaning brushes for the route, beer and weed for yer belayers.
If you want those lines, get after it. but realize, your real pleasure will come from uncovering a cool line that others will enjoy.
peace
alex
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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"Just say no to bolts," Nancy Reagan.
Curt
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Look, we'd love to help, but we're way too busy with other priorities on the thong thread right now.
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mucci
Trad climber
sf ca
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Start at the ground, climb like a monkey far enough up to scare your belayer, throw some hooks on and start drilling. Repeat until the summit.
If you do this the route will be "Sporty"
Oh, and don't forget the Blow tube!
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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1. You should only bolt for safety, not convenience. If you're not sketched you don't need a bolt. 1st bolts a decker, 2nd bolt may keep you from decking, etc. bolt to protect a move over a roof if there is no natural pro.
2. A body length apart!!!??? You talkin bout a bolted aid route? Thats not even a sport route. Does this route traverse a 100' overhang? I have seen routes where I climb with bolts spaced 15' but thats only in really sporty areas. Is this a route for climbers or gym rats? You could always just boulder and then you don't have to bolt anything.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Go drink a bunch of beers, get out the electric drill, and get busy........what's the big deal here?
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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At the risk of changing the topic and sounding unhelpful perhaps bear in mind that part of climbing is that some routes are meant to be dangerous and run-out.
Half sport is a dumb ethic. If it takes trad gear then either man up and do it with trad gear or leave it for someone who can do it with trad gear. After all a lot of classic routes are hard (for the grade) because the gear is spaced or are classics because there is no real gear. if they were bolted then they would just be another sport route rather than a 45 m run out padding pitch or whatever.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Every 3' max just to be safe. If near a vert crack then alternate sides to give climbers the option of right or left clips. Even better if you put those fixed draws. Remember, anything too blank should probably have a bit of a ledge added for a good crimp.
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couchmaster
climber
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BW said: Hope I have tough enough leathery skin to take all the potential critique I may receive, but I found a few nice sport lines I'd like to make. And since I'm totally new to this, having never drilled a bolt in my life, was wondering if I could get some sage advice. First, if anyone is willing to sell me a hand bolt drill for cheap, I would be eternally grateful. Willing to pay up to $50, good bits included or cheaper if not. Second, one of the lines has a bit of trad. I'd like to honor the rock and route as much as possible. The bolts in the area in question are spaced about a body length between each clip (for a tall person). After the crack how soon is too soon to place a bolt on the face?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
None of these yahoos can give you advice on this, find some locals who have been climbing there, who know what they are doing and ask them. They may tell you it is an existing route, or to leave it the F* alone or just toprope it, which is much better than asking them AFTER YOU STICK IN SOME INAPPROPRIATE BOLTS!!!!!!!!!! and having them undo all your work and rip out all the stupid bolts you install. If you want to "respect" the rock, maybe consider that leaving it alone is the best thing. (or not, but consider it). If it is appropriate, any climber who has been at that area will support, encourage, and help you do the routes. If it is inappropriate, don't you want to know it first? Lots of the advice given above is because they think your post is pretent, make believe, to rile them up, as they do not believe anyone would be that stupid to just show up and bolt a line they spot without asking around first....on the outside change you request for info is authentic and you haven't asked everyone there first.....
jus saying.
PS, where is the thong pictures!
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kev
climber
CA
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Yo BW,
1) You should really be part of a number of FA's where someone is teaching you how to do this before you go out and do this. That way you learn the does and don'ts (even if it's totally subjective and relative to whomever teaches you).
2) You should find some super small ass sized boulder and practice drilling bolts on this at the very least. Perhaps go help someone replace bad bolts, but don't just run off and bolt. If you make a bad hole, your bolt wont hold and now you've gone and damaged the rock. Not only does it look bad but it makes you look bad and people won't trust your route. In fact they probably won't trust any of your routes for a while if you drill a single bad bolt.
3) PIP brought a very important point - you need to do your research. Are you 100% sure no one has ever soloed it or climbed it purely on gear? Lots of research needs to be done here. That rock has been around for a long time and has seen MANY different climbers. Last thing you want is some pissed off hardman hunting you down because you've bolted his line.
4) Putting up routes is expensive, bolts are expensive, drill bits are expensive. Perhaps until you are able to afford a decent drill and know how to use it you shouldn't be putting up a route.
5) See #1 - if you complete #1 in this list you'll probably have solved #s 2,3, and 4.
I give this a 90% troll rating BTW
kev
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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beer , power tools, and a cliff (with a nice view) - now we're talkin real American recreation!
Only the smell of steaks
cooking on the Bar-B-Q, your girl packed up the talus, would make it complete.
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jstan
climber
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Actually a MacDonalds at the base would offer a chance for profit and a big parking lot for your car would obviate the need to walk. A hot tub at the base would also be cool.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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"I found a few nice sport lines I'd like to make."
Boy, you came to the wrong website.
PS, as mentioned find a mentor.
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BW
climber
Big Pine, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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Thanks very much all for the good advice. I am humbled by the thoughtfulness, humbled by the knowledge. And no, not Trol, just a lurker/listener on the edge of this big digital campfire. That said, I suppose the newbie/noob bolting question would not be the one I would ask from the edges of the firelight as a way of introduction and have to admit it took a six-pack of beer to jump in the ST fray in the first place. But it was a good experience and the advice (good, bad, and ugly) was well-taken and absorbed.
Just to clarify again, I've put up a few trad routes, just never placed a bolt. It sounds like a steep learning curve, one that I'll take slowly and with the proper mentors in tow.
Thanks again...
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Yeah, Mentor, that's how I learned on small rocks as mentioned above 25-50 lb'ers. But there are a few things that will never
change about hand-drilling. You want a clean hole! If you are wabbling & whacking you are in danger of creating an oversized
hole! If the drill bit becomes chipped or overly dull, you are in danger of creating an oversized hole! There is a finite amount of expansion on the bolts, once that is surpassed the bolt is "BAD" and you have created a timebomb! That being said, go find some rocks and a "old dude", and have fun!
Yes, make sure that it is in fact virgin territory!
Thor
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Please wait until you have more overall climbing experience. Putting up a decent sport route is much more difficult than you might think. There are many, many crappy routes out there. Picking a good line and bolting it well requires a good deal of climbing sophistication.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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"There are many, many crappy routes out there."
Heh heh heh...I bet BW knows this if he's climbed much 40 miles south of his home town at the Alabama Hills...(and no, I'm not just talking about rock quality)...
Although, admittedly, in the Hills some of the super poor bolt placement locations are due to rock quality (too hollow to drill in the right spot) - but a whole lot of those placements are not excusable by the rock quality.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 10, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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"Having never drilled a bolt in my life..." says it all. Leave the rock alone.
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Jun 10, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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I would have to agreed with Mr Barnes regarding some of those bolts in the AH's
No excuse for that type of crap!
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jun 10, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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I just started putting up bolted routes myself, after figuring out the details on my own. While it certainly takes some thought and practice it's not rocket science. With enough searching you can get all the technical details from this website alone check the asca website as well.
My thoughts
Be prepared to spend money. Not only bolting gear but replacing ropes etc that get worn out cleaning.
Use a power drill. You'll get better end results and not destroy your shoulders.
Use quality hardware. It's expensive but will last a long time
Find a quality line. For all the time money and sweat you'll invest better make sure it's something worth repeating.
Practice first on a little rock. Rent a calibrated torque wrench and figure out exactly what X ft-PBS of torque feels like
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 10, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Slabby,
Use a power drill???????
WTF what about the local ethic - BW asked about a hand drill.
kev
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