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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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It isn't "hypocritical and spineless" by the government but maybe by the tribe. It is all in a day's work for the government insofar as creating more bureaucracy and job security is the ultimate goal of government.
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Knave
climber
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Maybe a good place for a sacred casino now?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Everyone, and that includes the indians, lost the battle of Cave Rock.
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jstan
climber
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I'll post it again.
Author:
jstan
climber
From:
In the late 60's climbers began to make intensive use of Carderock which was managed as a part of the C&O Canal. Small plants were soon stamped out and the mud turned into packed earth. At least as of the early eighties there were still no bolts. By the early seventies floods on the Potomac began to eat away approaches to some of the rock. With the assistance of the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club climbers contacted the land managers and a coordinated cooperative plan was developed. In the execution of that plan those managing the area provided materials and substantial guidance.
Everyone benefitted.
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quartziteflight
climber
Who knows?
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Is climbing approached with such zeal to be considered religious?hmm A ritual that has life altering consequences?
Oh yeah Im part native american. Can I climb there, f*#k you crackas!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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It's gotta fricking highway THRU IT!!
I've got native american blood in me too, but crap like this is silly. [not directed at you quartzflight]
I recognize the incommensurability of native beliefs with those of propertied beliefs, and yet every time I read about the cave rock debacle it irks me.
I better stop bumping this thread.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Who's this John Dayberry traitor and when do we torch his house? Total moron. If he's really a climber, I hope they've offered him witness protection, because he's gonna need it.
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jstan
climber
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In the event something happens to Mr. Mayberry this thread will do a lot to reduce California state taxes. A simple court order will produce identities and locations where individuals with motive may be found. To boot, the sensitivity so clearly demonstrated here to be beyond all reason will cause the jury to include no climbers. So you can count on getting a just verdict.
Won't be necessary to go for a retrial.
EDIT:
Here's the post verbatim:
Author:
billygoat
climber
From: 3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
Who's this John Dayberry traitor and when do we torch his house? Total moron. If he's really a climber, I hope they've offered him witness protection, because he's gonna need it.
End of quote
Sounds like intent to me.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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I can't speak for the others. But my what I wrote speaks to the emotions his actions conjure up within. I would never actually cause the guy any harm. However, he is a moron and a traitor.
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Choss Gee
Trad climber
Wyoming/Utah
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"Is climbing approached with such zeal to be considered religious?hmm A ritual that has life altering consequences?"
I haven't found anything that makes me feel as spiritual as climbing. The inter dialogue when you're scared Sh**less can be quite enlightening. After a really great climb.
So the answer to your questions is for some of us, yes.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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May 11, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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CASE 1:
I first "climbed" (read rap-pel)in 1968 at a humble little sandstone gorge in Indiana, called Portland Arch. The Univ. of Illinois Simians and the Purdue club were the primary responsible groups, and we were all conscientious and safe; in that era, climbers were automatically "environmental" and the Sierra Club was still tied to its mountaineering origins. We had many quite skilled climbers who established mostly top-roped routes (rock too bad for pro) up to 5.11 grade. Then, over the span of 2 or 3 years, some church or school group had a goomba adult w/ zero experience fall off the cliff, then a zealous environmental "advocate" mistook silly locals sport-rappelling with loud boomboxes and beer, etc. for members of our groups. This advocate was involved in the transfer of ownership of the area to the Nature Conservancy, which in turn handed the management over to Indiana State Parks, which had/(has) a statewide ban on all State-MANAGED land, so the local rangers pounded in about 50 warning signs and ended climbing there.
MORAL: Even when climbers were clearly the good guys, and the locals only used the place to dump refrigerators and garbage, all it took was one zealot w/ political connections to ruin it.
CASE 2: Just about 5 years ago, I learned that the bouldering area "the Tropics" below Horsetooth Reservoir next to Fort Collins had been dynamited and buried in the course of renovating Soldier Canyon Dam.
MORAL: All the bolts ever placed on climbs in North America have made less impact than this ONE dam project. As an early foe of rampant over-bolting, even I can see that in the grand scheme, climbers and their impact really don't play in the Big Boy's games, so don't ruffle the wrong feathers (!), don't call attention to yourselves, and get as many friends in high places as you can.
"Protecting" areas from any and all use will backfire, because the next generation will have no direct experience or real connection to it, and so may place no value on it.
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brett
climber
oregon
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May 11, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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Last year,I went out to where the tropics used to be. I had not been there in 12 years. Man, that was sad to see. Really messed up.
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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May 11, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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"I would never actually cause the guy any harm. However, he is a moron and a traitor."
Or just some broke fvcker who needs the $$$, or a few hundred hangers, or who doesn't want some other FS poser to botch the chop. Don't be a retard. Target your disapproval somewhere logically.
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benbro
climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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This is one of the saddest things I've seen since I started climbing - ghetto or not (and it is a bit ghetto) it is a part of the history of tahoe climbing and Dan Osman's legacy, standing in this cave as a teenager on vacation intahoe and staring at all those bolts made me want to learn to dance on rocks. There is nothing even close to cave rock in this whole area, and few places in the country. I am frustrated not only at the inequity of not allowing people to touch a rock which has a highway blasted through it but also at the selfish climbers in the 90s who were rude to the washoes thereby encouraging the action of closure.
In terms of the argument for closure, go to Bristol, England - I was just there and they have a climbing gym in a 14th century church...even as an active Christian i find no offense in this, people are enjoying themselves in a house of god. We should be allowed to enjoy god's earth as freely as the washoes with equal respect for our own forms of worship. Most climbers I know feel the closest with god when firing dynos or cranking on crimps high above the ground. Certainly this may not be as sacred as the Washoe's worship, which is why climbers should be legally made to leave if a Washoe wishes to worship in the cave.
A law fining or arresting any climber who refused to leave if a Washoe requested a time of solace in the cave - amen! But this is a sad and discriminant law meant to throw a bone to a people Who have been treated terribly in history and deserve the cultural and religious thanks and respect they never received during the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, not a jab at climbers to try to appease them - we all want to be left in peace to enjoy this beautiful piece of creation. It's sad to see one party being discriminated against, once again.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 27, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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Benbro, you owe it to yourself to at least read the Ninth Circuit's opinion. The Washoe tribe didn't get what they wanted either. All decisions are discriminatory. But religious discrimination against climbers? The place was awesome to climb at, but the "development" of the crag was a travesty. The cave was an archaeological site, paved over. Twice.
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benbro
climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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I agree that SOME of the development is a bit ridiculous/grotesque (i.e. Dan-O paving a floor at the bottom - cmon!).
In terms of discrimination:
The 9th court's decision that went against what the Washoe tribe wanted WAS one of discrimination - To allow hikers/boaters/fisherman/drunken partyers etc. in the cave legally but to not allow someone to climb on a rock is quite obviously discrimination. The reason for this decision is obvious, rock climbing doesn't bring in money or the majority of tourists - but telling hikers, fisherman and boaters they cant go to or dock near cave rock would bring a lot of frustrated rich bay area people. If they restricted all traffic to cave rock that would at least be non-discriminatory toward climbers though that argument wouldn't have been passed as THAT would be religious discrimination - but if you just tell people they can't climb somewhere, that's nothing at all - just discrimination against a bunch of poor, filthy, drug infested, homeless hippies that make up the rock climbing culture :0
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jstan
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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Actually I can think of a very practical reason why climbing might specifically be prohibited.
Imagine for a moment that there had been a long history of noncompliance. Responsible authorities have to worry about having a recurring budget for enforcement. One way to keep that budgetary requirement down in such an environment is simply to prohibit all forms of that activity. Then when any such thing is seen the LEO has a cut and dried situation. And it makes the intention of the authorities so clear no one can play games. Many fewer arguments and much easier enforcement. Like "I was not climbing. I was bouldering." Or, "Yes I was climbing but it was not recreational. My friend here was paying me to climb."
If the hands and feet were on the rock the wristlets can come out immediately.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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May 27, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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I climbed at Cave before Dan O turned it into a "World Class" stopping point for the gifted individuals. It was a filthy polluted choss pile. Joke about the beer cans, but imagine dirty diapers, and mattresses and all the other garbage that man kind discards. After locals did some hard work, a few of the "Skins" ( who are friends also), decided to make this a battle ground in the courts.... They won this one and a memorial to one of our lost brothers is being erased. It Sucks. It's wrong, but let's learn from it and try to do better the next round.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 28, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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May I go there to look over the lake and meditate? or does that ruffle a skirt, somewhere?
what can I say? it really is a spiritual place for me.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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May 28, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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Just don't have a 5.10 sticker on your car Jaybro.... or meditate about that "drop Knee" move on Bat Outta Hell......
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