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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 18, 2005 - 11:41pm PT
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Just back from the land of the granitic… And here we go again…
http://www.supertopo.com/rockclimbing/route.html?r=ybwatend
In the beta thread linked above, concerning the route Ten Days After on Washington Column, Nanook (Erik Sloan) wrote:
"As of 7/05 all belays look good(everyone has 2 3/8" bolts except the top of #1 which has one 5/16 buttonhead and one 3/8"). Most lead bolts/rivets were replaced. A few poor quality rivets remain."
Once again, Erik, I have some questions for you. Hopefully, you will be able to answer the questions this time.
1) Exactly how many belay bolts and lead bolts/rivets did you replace on Ten Days After?
2) Exactly what did you replace these belay bolts and lead bolts/rivets with (I remember there being quite a few Zamac rivets on this route)?
3) How many of the original holes did you reuse? How many original holes did you not reuse?
4) Did you talk to other climbers in the local climbing community before you re-bolted the route?
5) Did you talk to Eric Brand and/or John Barbella before you re-bolted the route?
6) Do you feel like you have done a proper and ‘ethically correct’ job of replacing bolts on this route?
7) Do you feel that the majority of local Yosemite climbers would agree with your re-bolting style (on this route and others)?
8) Considering that you have been the most active ASCA re-bolter on Yosemite’s big walls, don’t you think that the people who contribute money to the ASCA for the purpose of replacing aging climbing anchors deserve to know how their money is being used and the exact details of the bolt replacements on each route that has been re-bolted? Is that not fair?
You need to tell us what is going on, instead of hiding the details of your re-bolting practices in the shadows, as you have been doing. Please tell us. Be honest.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
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Erik?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 21, 2005 - 01:03pm PT
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Bryan,
Not everyone "gets it" when it comes to bolt and rivet replacement. The tone of your post, and its provocative title, suggest that Erik has done something really heinous up there.
Why don't you tone it down a bit, maybe change the title to "Questions for Erik" or something else that he might actually choose to answer?
If I were Erik, I might be tempted to ignore your post as it is written now, because [it appears to me] you're bashing the hell out of him without knowing exactly what he's done up there.
Now granted, I have read in the past that you have disagreed with some of Erik's past bolting practises. Fair enough. But some of us DO learn from time to time, and perhaps Erik has made some modifications to his practice? You come off sounding like a know-it-all. In fact, you are arguably one of the most knowledgeable people in the whole damn country concerning ethical bolt replacement, but if you come off as holier-than-thou then you sabotage your own credibility.
See, here's the thing, dude - you are easily baited. I trolled the hell out of you before we climbed Bermuda Dunes, and afterwards as well. Before the climb I talked about how we were going to add bolts to all the belays so we could hang our huge loads and extra portaledges. I did manage to reach Steve Schneider [the first ascensionist] by telephone and asked him about adding bolts to the belays, and his exact words were, "go to town!" He gave us carte blanche, although we didn't use it. Quite the opposite. After we got down, I wrote that my elbows were tired from drilling so many bolt holes, just to annoy you. In fact, all 23 of the holes we drilled were using 3/8" bits in existing 1/4" holes, after we had first removed the rusty and ancient bolts from those holes. I think we did a damn fine job reusing every single hole. I have my partner Tom Kasper to thank for it - he put together the equipment we needed, and taught me how to do it.
The problem with your post above is not only how it is written, but that it doesn't teach us anything. Why don't you rewrite it, with a bit of explanation to each of your questions? You could also perhaps cite specific examples.
For instance,
"On such-and-such a route in xxxx year, Erik did this. However I feel he should have done --- because --- is the Better Way, and here's why I believe this. I am wondering if Erik still does this, or has he changed to ---?"
You catch more wall rats with Olde E. than by bashing them over the head with a piton hammer. A crusty old wall rat like you ought to know that.....
Cheers,
Pete
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paulj
climber
utah
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Jul 21, 2005 - 02:28pm PT
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Well, we can state with certainty that Ten Days After is often a victim of poor punctuation.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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Pete, I do tend to get pretty worked up over this stuff, as everyone can tell. But I do know what is going on and I’m pretty sure that Erik is still doing the same as he always has done. My questions are no different than the guidelines that are outlined on the ASCA website.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/index.htm
See, here's the thing, dude - you are easily baited.
Well, concerning re-bolting ethics, yes – otherwise, no. So what did your trolling accomplish, other than piss me off and make me think that you were clueless? Why should I have helped you out with re-bolting beta when you just wanted to play stupid games?
Before the climb I talked about how we were going to add bolts to all the belays so we could hang our huge loads and extra portaledges.
And it wouldn’t be hard to imagine someone such as you actually doing what you said you were going to do, with your track record of talking about how you have added bivy rivets to belays in the past and how you talk about wanting to clip every bolt in sight. I had actually forgotten about your troll until you just brought it up. NBD now - give it a rest.
If Erik is doing a good job of re-bolting, then why has the ASCA (the president of which is Erik’s guidebook co-author and friend) stopped supporting his re-bolting and why has his ‘mega-stash’ of ASCA donor-supported bolting gear been taken away from him?
Why does Erik feel the need to remove new 1/4" buttonhead lead bolts with hangers (that I have placed within the last few years) and drill the holes out to 3/8” to accommodate his FAT bolts? With all of the other bolts out there in need of replacement, why replace something that a fellow ASCA re-bolter has already replaced? Can Erik just not stand the sight of a 1/4" bolt? This is only part of what is bothering me…
Erik needs to tell the climbing community what he is doing to Yosemite wall routes. But if he chooses not to tell us, then I will.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 21, 2005 - 07:38pm PT
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"Considering that you have been the most active ASCA re-bolter on Yosemite’s big walls, don’t you think that the people who contribute money to the ASCA for the purpose of replacing aging climbing anchors deserve to know how their money is being used and the exact details of the bolt replacements on each route that has been re-bolted? Is that not fair?"
Agreed/Fair. I would also like to add that when you are performing a community service, you damn well better listen to the community in which you serve.
Robert
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 21, 2005 - 11:46pm PT
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I heard he uses power too. IMHO that is disrespectful to the first ascensionists who sweated it out with hand drills.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 22, 2005 - 10:51am PT
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just thought since Brian was putting the chips on the table, that we should put ALL of the chips on the table.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2005 - 11:26am PT
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"If Erik is doing a good job of re-bolting, then why has the ASCA (the president of which is Erik’s guidebook co-author and friend) stopped supporting his re-bolting and why has his ‘mega-stash’ of ASCA donor-supported bolting gear been taken away from him?"
Chris Mac - is this true? If so, why?
"I heard he uses power too."
This is hearsay, and publishing hearsay in an internet forum makes you look like an ass. We have spoken of this before, Young Bull Matt. Even if it happens to be true, you have no business writing it. Your chip has all the credibility of a cowpie.
Now, if you want to read a more credible account, you can click here to [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=83775&f=0&b=0"]read Piton Ron Olevsky's allegations.[/url] Clearly Ron is a wily Old Bull. Understanding the difference between hearsay and a first-hand account is a fundamental step in the Journey from YB to OB.
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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 22, 2005 - 12:34pm PT
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actually i think power is only prohibited inthe wilderness area of yosemite, which relevant to this discussion would be the walls of el cap. THough however there is a 6" bolt on the trip that was put in for the star trek movie. i don't think its on the route proper though. you really think that was drilled by hand?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 22, 2005 - 11:06pm PT
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"Even if it happens to be true, you have no business writing it."
oh yeah, and why the f'k not? and who the f'k are you to tell me what I can an can not write here? It isn't hearsay.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 23, 2005 - 10:06am PT
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{Dr. Piton rolls his eyes skyward in exasperation and wonders if this YB is really worth the effort, or if it's time to just give up. Resignedly, he begins to type}
You can write whatever you want, however you have now managed to look like an ass twice in the same post.
Hearsay is when you repeat something that someone else told you without you actually seeing it for yourself. While it may be factual that Erik uses a power drill, until such time as you actually witness it, you have no business perpetuating what you personally have not seen to be true.
Unless you want to keep looking like an ass.
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Salathiel
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 23, 2005 - 10:24am PT
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Pete is being the voice of reason here?
Okay everyone, quit snarling and frothing at the mouth and pick those panties of your cracks. Talk to Karl, and align your chakras.
I may be a bit out of school here but, lets say I decided I wanted to replace bolts on aid route x in the valley; I would begin by climbing the route, and hauling up my gear and any 1/4 inch bolts I saw would more than likely be replaced with stronger gear. If I worked for the ASCA, I would have used their resources ahead of time to ask the first ascentionist to see how they felt about it. Then I would re-bolt under those guidelines.
To ask the re-bolter to survey all members of the ASCA for every route the re-bolter decides to clean up is an enormous waste of time, and completely absurd. To simply ask on an internet forum, like this one, is just as absurd, as everyone, including a duffer like myself, will lend their opinion and it really doesn't matter in the first place.
I think Minerals is angry because he was not asked his opinion before the re-bolting.
more pennies from me,
Blur
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Jul 23, 2005 - 02:25pm PT
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"I think Minerals is angry because he was not asked his opinion before the re-bolting."
I don't think that is the issue at all. I think Bryan is asking a legitimate question since he was just up there not too long ago accomplishing the same task. I would be curious too.
"I would begin by climbing the route, and hauling up my gear and any 1/4 inch bolts I saw would more than likely be replaced with stronger gear."
This is the root of the problem. Some rebolters upgrade the size of the bolt which changes the character of the pitch. Being run-out above a 1/4" rivet/bolt is a lot different that being run-out above a 3/8" bolt w/hanger. I think we all agree that keeping the "feel" of an existing route should be our main priority when replacing hardware.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Jul 23, 2005 - 02:57pm PT
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Another point is that some of the 1/4" bolts you're replacing should in fact be REMOVED, not replaced. Note that the original hole count & the current are almost never the same.
As to donations to the ASCA, should we start a bolt 'bounty' system? IE; Here's $10 for the p5 belay of route xyz. Interesting.
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Loom
climber
Sierra Nevada
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Jul 23, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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Rwedgee and klaus make good points.
Often, rivets or bolts have been added to an existing route. I and many others think these should be removed. But then Erik Sloan comes along and replaces almost EVERYTHING (original and chicken 3/8", 5/16", 1/4" bolts, z-macs, dowels, etc.) with identical 3/8" bolts with hangers. Not only has it changed the nature of the route, but Erik has essentially sabotaged any future effort to restore the route to it's original equipment. Now it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to tell what gear was from the FA.
Sometimes it's easy. Like a bolt ladder that parallels the original dowel ladder. A variation?
I would like him to stop, but I'm not going to "break all his fingers." Maybe some of you are in favor of more and better bolts, and you support Erik. But don't you think it would be a good idea, just from a historical perspective, that while he retrofits a route (or when anyone else does a restoration or rehabilitation)that detailed records are kept and then made public of exactly what was replaced and exactly where it was replaced?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 23, 2005 - 06:57pm PT
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I tell you what Pete. I would pay to see someone hand drill that string of 3/8 inch bolts up on the trip. Hand drill my ass...
The guy is a selfish ass, and it is not the whistle blower putting our climbing freedom in Yosemite at risk, it is the perptrator of the crime.
Then again, considering you are too lazy to carry your haul bags off El Cap rather then throwing them down, I shouldn't expect much support from you.
Personally I think it is a reall shame what this guy and others are doing to Wilderness routes, and I think they should be called on it.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Jul 23, 2005 - 08:26pm PT
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Where's Nanook at with this conversation? What's up Erik?
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Salathiel
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 24, 2005 - 08:33am PT
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Replacing natural anchors with bolts is wrong.
This whole concept of the feel of a route sounds pretty subjective though. Ammon, I see your point, and I would certainly not want to "dumb down" a route, but I can see how easy it can be. Of course, I don;t know the re-bolter, or most od the parties here by name, so I cannot make a character assessment , and would refuse to do so until I spent some time with the parties involved.
Thanks for your perspective.
Blur
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 24, 2005 - 10:12am PT
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"I think Minerals is angry because he was not asked his opinion before the re-bolting. "
I think you're dead wrong. Bryan is just making a simple point. Eric should defend his stance/actions. I said it ealier in this thread, "when you are performing a community service, you damn well better listen to the community in which you serve."
Just wandering off and trashing popular routes because you think it's the right thing to do is not a community service, it is blatant self service.
Robert
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 24, 2005 - 01:45pm PT
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my guess is that neither Minerals or Nanook is going to post to this thread again since it contains the words "Power Drill."
it must suck living with such a dark shamefull secret.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2005 - 08:03pm PT
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Intelligent people can bolt intelligently whether hand drilling or power drilling.
Idiots will always screw up bolting whether hand drilling or power drilling.
It’s not the tools but definitely the user. If one can not understand this basic fundamental and simple thing then it will become a terrible tragedy in your reasoning.
I have seen the results of all of the above ………..
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 24, 2005 - 09:14pm PT
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"Idiots will always screw up bolting whether hand drilling or power drilling."
geee... it sounds like Jody defending his guns.
(and I agree with you 100%, werner)
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 25, 2005 - 12:03am PT
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Werner, your comment is true. howver, you can't argue that a power tool won't help facilitate iresponsible drilling.
For instance, without a power tool I doubt those 100's of 3/8 bolts with hangers would have been placed on T-Trip in new holes, rather then 1/4 inchers re-using the old holes.
It is true people can do dumb things with a hand drill also though, no arguing that...
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Jul 25, 2005 - 12:48am PT
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I remember tons of Zmack rivets on this route. if they have all been replaced with phat new bolts then we're basiclly left with a slightly harder version of the WFLT.
All drilled placements are not created equal and you can feel the difference when you stand above one. Zmacks are truely scary, but TDA's where still in good shape.
As of one year ago most of the belay's had already been added to, and the new bolts sat right next to the old ones. we're not talking about old school 1/4 inchers either. this route was put up in the late 80's. the belay's in the main corner could be backed up with a little gear.
i for one am glad to have climbed this one before the new gear and would love to know just what has changed.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 25, 2005 - 12:56am PT
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Yes, I have to agree it’s much easier to become irresponsible with a power bolt gun than a hand drill. This is probably the main motivating factor that convinced the land managers to outlaw them.
Unfortunately the responsible folks lost out on a useful tool.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 25, 2005 - 09:57am PT
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Trust me, they didn't lose out on a useful tool, they just had to hide it better.
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 25, 2005 - 03:37pm PT
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Are you guys actually endorsing the replacement of Z-Macs and dowels with more Z-Macs and dowels?
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monkey
Big Wall climber
slc ut
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Jul 26, 2005 - 02:42pm PT
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How the hell do you expect eric to redrill a hole if you cant remove the damn dowels, they dont have heads on them?. Should he put in buttonheads that arent worth a damn in the long run.
Rebolting is alot of work, time and money. If you dont like how he does it then do it yourself.
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monkey
Big Wall climber
slc ut
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Jul 26, 2005 - 02:42pm PT
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How the hell do you expect eric to redrill a hole if you cant remove the damn dowels, they dont have heads on them?. Should he put in buttonheads that arent worth a damn in the long run.
Rebolting is alot of work, time and money. If you dont like how he does it then do it yourself.
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Pat Spydell
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 26, 2005 - 07:09pm PT
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Just remember, more climbing accidents will directly result in more restrictions imposed on the sport. Eric is a good guy and KNOWS HIS SH#T.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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"Just remember, more climbing accidents will directly result in more restrictions imposed on the sport. Eric is a good guy and KNOWS HIS SH#T."
Mid-afternoon, September 8th, 2004, Tangerine Trip – a climber dies on the most over-bolted route in Yosemite, a route re-bolted by Erik Sloan.
YOU CANNOT PUT SAFETY INTO THE CLIMB BUT YOU CAN PUT SAFETY INTO THE CLIMBER.
Remember that.
Pat – Tell Steve that I said hello.
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Pat Spydell
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 26, 2005 - 09:07pm PT
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Steve?
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Jul 26, 2005 - 09:28pm PT
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"Steve?"
Hey Pat, think keyframe animation, full immersion and Norby/defcon.
S
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Pat Spydell
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 26, 2005 - 10:10pm PT
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Ahh Ha!.. I read you. Steve's the man. Have not seen him around though. The size of this world really blows my mind sometimes, ya know?
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Pat Spydell
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 26, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
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Hey Steve!!! That kid really did work at a super classified nuclear facility and had top level clearance... so naturally, I had to spew it all over the web!
Remember when we were trying to figure out the name of that route I soloed? It was Braile Book. Its been eating away at me for a month now. Anyway, glad to know you're still around.
P
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 26, 2005 - 11:32pm PT
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"YOU CANNOT PUT SAFETY INTO THE CLIMB BUT YOU CAN PUT SAFETY INTO THE CLIMBER.
Remember that."
Hey Minerals, are you sure you didn't mean that the other way around?
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Jul 27, 2005 - 03:15pm PT
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No, I think he met to say it that way?
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 27, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
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I understand what he meant to say by that statement but the statement itself is not actually true.
It's like saying "You can't put safety into a car but you can put safety into the driver". Of course, both are possible.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2005 - 06:10pm PT
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Sorry – I only wish that I was a McPhee. The word “cannot” was used in an ethical sense, rather than an actual or physical sense. Maybe “shouldn’t” would have been more appropriate?
Obviously, safety standards for passenger vehicles as well as race vehicles have greatly improved over the years, with advancements in technology and from lessons learned. Air bags have saved many lives; so have seat belts. Modern ‘race cars’ are even fitted with ‘restrictive devices’ that prevent higher top speeds; safety regulations are also imposed on the ‘car’ design and set-up – technology has been subdued in the name of safety.
But climbing isn’t like auto racing or a trip to your local grocery store. You can update your rack of climbing gear with the latest and safest gadgets but ethically speaking, you can’t (shouldn’t) change the route in the name of safety. Weathered anchors that are unsafe should (need to) be replaced, but if done correctly, the ‘safety factor’ should not change (relatively speaking) from that of the original ascent.
Just imagine if Erik’s sense of ‘safety’ was imposed on passenger vehicles… Freeway speed limits would be dropped to 25 mph… And small, efficient cars would become extinct, as larger, safer vehicles became the norm.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 27, 2005 - 09:45pm PT
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We could go back on wording all day...
But the way I see it, Eric Whoever could turn every move of Tangerine Trip into a 3/8 bolt with hanger, argueably making it "safer". However, you will still have people who can't tie into the rope properly fall off and die.
So in that case you can put some safety into a climb, but can't allways put safety into each climber.
Not that I think climbs should be made safer, I agree they should remain in the original style as much as possible, including bolting techniques.
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Max
Social climber
santa booze
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Jul 29, 2005 - 03:52pm PT
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Hmm... Small, efficient vehicles, versus exceedingly large, safe ones?
Which catergory does the DeathStar fall into Bryan?
he he he
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 29, 2005 - 04:07pm PT
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bryan:
.. its tough to argue these sort of points in an internet forum .. since alot of the people chiming in have not seen the rebolting in question for themselves..
.. i have mixed emotions about the rebolting work on el capitan..
for example on tangerine trip.
I was relieved to hit the beefy bolt ladders (we're talking belay bolts + hangers on an aid ladder). -- since it allowed me to move faster through those sections -- only bothering to protect every 4th or 5th bolt.
The only question about the rebolting work is: Was that what the bolt ladders used to look like? -- or were they smaller rivets (or dowels) that were replaced with belay bolts + hangers..
==
Looking back at the experience, i was thankful for the beefy protection, but i would have prefferred to have suffered through a rivet laadder. hanging my own rivet hangers, rather than having shiny new ASCA bolt hangers.
That being said, i still donated to the ASCA after my TT ascent because i appreciate that someone is out there beefing up belays, and other critical equipment.
My $0.02 ... make the belays bombproof.. the rest of the climb should remain at the same risk level as the F.A. -- (replace lead bolt for lead bolt.. rivet for rivet .. almost seems like there should be a table of what compares)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 29, 2005 - 04:18pm PT
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You know why the Tangerine Trip has such a shitty rivet ladder? Because Porter wanted off and he didn’t have the money to pay for all those bolts. Now he figured later ascents would do the justice it deserved.
Instead people thought that a fu-cked up road needed to be replaced by a fu-cked up road ......
Modern education nice stuff ..............
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 29, 2005 - 04:29pm PT
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The Trip is a done deal, but it would be a shame to see the machinehead wall (native son) get the same treatment. If you've done it, you know what I mean.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 29, 2005 - 04:39pm PT
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In the future they'll try and fix everything for you to protect you from yourself. It's man trying to play God.
Unfortunately it becomes a total disaster.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 29, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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God tried to play man once, and that didn't go so well either.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 29, 2005 - 04:46pm PT
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Never ever happened Wrath .........he's not a cheater like us.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 29, 2005 - 05:45pm PT
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werner :
agreed -- from the line that the route follows on the last 3 pitches, its ovbious that porter had had enough of the route and just needed to the get the heck out of there...
.. but was it really neccesary to replace a line of shitty dowels with super-safe-i-will-hang-my-truck-and-mother-in-law beefy belay bolts..
.. anyways .. my point is that rebolting of lead bolts should be done to preserve a sense of adventure -- using huge bolts + hangers on a rivet ladder is overkill.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 29, 2005 - 06:08pm PT
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I bloody wouldn't hang something as valuable as my truck off the same bolts as I'd hang my mother-in-law.
What the, what the hail you thinkin', boy?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 29, 2005 - 06:11pm PT
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Man ricardo, I don't know what's right. That's what some guy named Sloan did. Do I know this guy? Doesn't make any diffrence does it? I leave all that stuff for you guys to sort out.
It's your generation, you guys need to figure it out.
Hint ("It's really not about the bolts nor about climbing what-so-ever")
Good luck . .......
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 29, 2005 - 09:00pm PT
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Just to make sure everyone knows the exact current relationship between the ASCA and Erik: Erik receives NO SUPPORT at all from the ASCA.
Erik has done a tremendous amount of rebolting work and was one of the founders of the ASCA.
However, his vision of bolt replacement on Yosemite wall routes differs so substantially from that of the community that the ASCA has completely withdrawn support for his work. Last fall, he gave Chris everything he had left and then I picked that up from Chris. No ASCA money goes to any supplies for Erik.
I hope that Erik finally listens and stops replacing every rivet with a big fat bolt, but on the other hand maybe he has already adjusted his methods - has anyone been up Ten Days After before and after his work who can let us know details? Has anyone sat down and discussed the particular replacement job he did on that route? In my opinion, it's premature to pronounce Ten Days After a "victim" without having that information.
In any case, I just wanted everyone to know that their donations are not going to support Erik's idea of bolt replacement on walls. I hope that Erik changes his methods so that the community can once again fully support his extensive rebolting efforts.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 29, 2005 - 10:07pm PT
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Well, that pretty much says it all.
A good man corrupted by power...24 volts of it.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 30, 2005 - 02:11am PT
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I think there is an interesting point worth debating here.....
Fixed climbing gear deteriorates over time. The rivet or even the bolt placed by the first ascentionist 30+ years ago is not the same piece of gear now. If you agree with that contention then if the fixed gear is never replaced, routes get harder as they get older.
Is it acceptable to require future climbers to use the aging gear? Clearly, the route is now harder then it was for the first ascentionist since the gear now is less safe.
I don't know what the right answer is, and maybe there really isn't once correct answer. The fact that somebody stood on a 30+ year old rivet and it held really has no bearing because if that same rivet is a ticking time bomb and it finally blows for the next climber, it was unsafe. It is hard to make the same claim for a properly placed 3/8" bolt which will be safe for years to come (assuming it is the proper materials and properly placed).
What does everybody else think? Is it OK to replace 1/4" bolts with 3/8" bolts because they (1/4 bolts) were thought to be "bomber" when they were placed. But, is it not OK to replace rivets because they were never bomber and part of the game is dealing with sketchy pro?
Is the goal to drill a minimum number of holes (especially during re-bolting) so if you are going to have to drill, fill the hole with something that won't appreciably deteriorate over time like a rivet which might require an entirely new hole if it blows? This would be an argument against replacing a rivet with a rivet.
Can we ever reasonably expect to experience a climb in the same condition as the first ascent party? Is that really the ultimate goal?
Hmmmm?!?!?!
Bruce
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Michael Moron
Social climber
Davison, MI
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Jul 30, 2005 - 02:19am PT
|
" IMHO that is disrespectful to the first ascensionists who sweated it out with hand drills. "
That is a stupid thing to say. Anybody that does a route in something other than exactly how the FA was done is disrespecting the FA? Criminy! This "respecting" of the FA is getting out of hand. What do you do, bow down three times a day and pray to the first ascentionist? I think this idol worship crap is getting ridiculous.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 30, 2005 - 10:29am PT
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The point is:
Replace a rivet with a rivet.
Replace a bolt (any bolt) with a good bolt.
The reason being that rivets are to cross blank rock, bolts are for protection. By replacing rivets with bolts, the character of the pitch is changed.
And the disrespect comment, I assume, is because he uses a power drill.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jul 30, 2005 - 11:33am PT
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Sorry for popping in on the aid climbing mechanical bolt wars,but you guys bitch more than sport climbers(they bitch a lot).Lambone made a good point about the trip.Can't see that being done by hand.Have a great day flaming.Free it or leave it for the next generation.rg
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 30, 2005 - 12:05pm PT
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The problem I have with placing a rivet for a rivet is that if you can't use the same hole, then you start drilling a lot more holes in the rock. I always thought the ultimate goal was to drill as few holes as possible. If trying to keep the climb at the same difficulty will require a lot of holes to be drilled over time then that is bad.
And historically, rivets were used not to cross blank rock but to save time (and money) on drilling bolts. The first ascentionists weren't trying to make the climbing harder, they were just trying to get up without having to spend a lot of time drilling deeper holes. If somebody wants to take the time to drill deeper holes what's wrong with that?
If you really want to go back to scary aid climbing let's return to using "bat holes", 1/4" deep by 1/4" diameter holes into which
you slot a specially modified bat hook. Those were really scary and didn't hold up to multiple ascents.
Bruce
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
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i think you're missing the point ..
in my opinion -- there is not much difference between a good 1/4" rivet and a good 3/8" rivet .. the operating word is good .. either one should hold.
.. to me the difference is when the rivet is replaced with a bolt + hanger..
a rivet ladder has a different feel than a bolt + hanger ladder.
it is possible to rip a few placements in a rivet ladder -- while ripping placements in bolt+hanger ladder does not enter the equation.
---
for example .. the 2nd pitch of virginia .. has alot of rivits with some crappy gear thrown in between .. (heads, etc) .. if you blew it -- you'd sail for a bit .. the rivets may or may not stop your fall .. (not from the rivet failing.. but from the rivet hanger breaking or falling off) ..
.. if those rivets were replaced with bolts+hangers .. that pitch would not be nearly as enjoyable as it is today.
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couchmaster
climber
|
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This is the 10 year after Ten Year After debate bump.
That's all.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Clever!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Funny, I'm leaving for the valley in a few days and spent last night going over this topo after deciding to climb this one route.
The matrix, man. It's reel.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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"I tell you what Pete. I would pay to see someone hand drill that string of 3/8 inch bolts up on the trip. Hand drill my ass..."
Wow old post..
Just for the record I was up there. I like Erik. He's a super mellow friendly guy and put up with my Gumby skills learning on Tangerine Trip.. It was my first successful El Cap experience. We took extra time drilling some of those damn rivets and many belay bolts. I often lead pitches he wanted to rebolt including some super shitty anchor on Virginia where the old hanger literally cracked in half while we were hauling.
It took Erik multiple ascents of the route. No power drills were used at all to my knowledge. Erik could be more sensitive, but there's also no great way to go about this kind of thing without pissing off a few. I agree with Werner's point about not adding time bombs, particularly on Yosemite trade routes.
It's definitely a subjective debate here. That's a labor of love seeing just a taste of what a huge pain in the ass it is and I can't really fault the guy for doing it the best way he sees to do it when he does. I feel that's how many of us would - I know I wouldn't want to; my elbow hurts thinking about it.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Considering, at best, Minerals is neo-Nazi anything he says is BS.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Considering, at best, Minerals is neo-Nazi anything he says is BS.
Way to keep it classy, scooter.
Did you read Greg Barnes post?
It speaks volumes, and begs the answers to the questions Bryan is asking.
Which I am sure can be answered "10 years later".
...
The lashing out really helps Sloan's cause, BTW - well played.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Yosemite seems to have become the soap opera of climbing.....carry on children.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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^^^^^^ come on Jim it has been a soap opera in the valley since before even you started climbing there. Royal and Warren created all kinds of drama.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Look at TV, soap operas are always the longest running shows.
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E
Ice climber
mogollon rim
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isnt that the guy that got bf'd in Deliverance
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Right you are.....he ran into trouble when he tried to get the movie's name changed to Acceptance.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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The parasite.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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The horror!
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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The Bump!
Ask An Enhancer day at the bridge!
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Well, MrE. Ever since I heard Minerals spewing his Meinkampf non-sense in front of the TM store and called him out on it (to no response I should mention, just more talk, ha)...I have ZERO respect for him or any of his opinions. Are you one of the little Nazi dagger lover guys too? You two should be gun and knife show partners.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
|
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from some
zeal issues
gracefully,
in droves
of custard
diarrhea.
from others
it shoots
like gravel
stool.
not all
of us can
be the
limits of
mankind.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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You're wrong.
But on the plus side you've been running longer than the longest running show on TV.
So funny and true.
There may be a market for "I Detest Sloan" and "I Like Sloan" big wall t-shirts. Retro Harding and Robbins t-shirts might sell well too. A blank t-shirt that comes with a permanent marker for the rugged individualist/self promoters would be a hot item, a tangible version of "post a reply" in all sizes, both slim and regular fit.
This is why early behavioral modification at Preschool age is so important.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Yeah, get one for me.....just weighed myself after returning from Turkey. 152...too much good food, those 18 to 30 extra ounces sneak up on you when you get older.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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There may be a market for "I Detest Sloan" and "I Like Sloan" big wall t-shirts.
Us star bellied sneetches pay Sloan no mind
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Honestly though, the reason I think Bryan Laws opinions on any thing are fairly worthless is because he actual holds Nazi view points and will argue for them. For example I listened to him talking to 7-8 people about how he thought it would be a good idea for hospitals to not treat their patients or accept patients for one week per year. That by doing this it would be a benefit to society by relieving us of taking care of them. Not all of nazi thought was based around rascism and anti-semitism. It is my opinion that to think this way means that one would have other serious flaws in their reasoning on any subject. Thus his opion on Ten Days After, worthless.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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I don't think I will have to dig too deep at all. Anyone who would defend a Nazi is an idiot. I would never take climbing advice from an idiot. Problem easily solved. I would not take your climbing advice Mike.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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And still shy of the longest show by at least four and half years.
Splitting hairs.
What is it then? variety shows dont count.
If my boss knew I was arguing online about soap operas........love STopo!
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Cause they are not weekly and only a yearly thing, big whoop.
IMO
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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#marketing
never miss an opportunity.
Honestly though, the reason I think Bryan Laws opinions on any thing are fairly worthless is because he actual holds Nazi view points and will argue for them. For example I listened to him talking to 7-8 people ...
If you've heard the stuff I've said to 7 or 8 people... haha
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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but can he hyperlink?
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Lurkingtard
climber
|
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but can he hyperlink?
I depends on how many batteries he brings.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Eric,
What happened with the rope swing? I heard that Alex Honnold donated the rope to you. IF so what happened to the money that was donated for the rope by climbers. Did you give it back?
kev
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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sounds like you are Nazi lover Mike.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
|
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Judging others doesn't define them -
it defines you.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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^^ Coming from the guy in lederhosen... Nazi lover.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
|
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Klaus seems to have had all his posts eradicated from the forum.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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^ Yes, all but four posts.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Oct 13, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
|
Still waiting to hear an answer on this.
Eric,
What happened with the rope swing? I heard that Alex Honnold donated the rope to you. If so what happened to the money that was donated for the rope by climbers. Did you give it back?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
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Oct 14, 2015 - 11:40am PT
|
If you want to experience some old routes like the 1st ascenionists, try doing some of Pratt's routes in Pivettas without chalk.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 14, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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From what I can see, "modern ethics" just means you think you're special enough to go f&&k up whatever you want whenever you want. In other words, NO ethics at all and low impact practices can go f**k themselves.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 14, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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Yep "modern ethics" means drilling bolt ladders around crux pitches.
Woot! Stoke! Buy my book! Yosemite rulz, codgers drool!
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
|
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Oct 14, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
|
Love the #marketing response, lol.
Mike Ousley, Mike. above, is, like Eric Kohl, a person who has different ethical beliefs than the majority of people who climb in Yosemite. I'm psyched that you and Eric participate in the discussion Mike. I don't feel the need to try to convince every other person to have the beliefs that I do.
Kev - Patience grasshopper, the swing will be back up soon. Alex Honnold donated a 100m static line to whatever cause I thought was best for it. I put that rope on the Heart Ledges, which could still use another 100m of rope if anyone has that lying around. The traffic on the Salathe/Freerider has been incredible, so no doubt many grateful climbers out there these days.
Yosemite has been held hostage by old codger attitudes that are gradually being replaced by modern climber ethics, like having well marked trails and bolted belays(sponsored climbers like Kevin Thaw and Mark Synott defied Eric Kohl in the early 2000s by bolting natural belays on his A5 routes on El Cap. Why should the easy routes be any different?), and bolts where only pitons or copperheads fit on clean bigwall routes. Climber impact in Yosemite is inevitable. Today's climbers are trying to do their best to preserve the cliff for future generations.
Mike - re: the idea to reuse the original bolt holes when replacing bolts. After 17 years of continuous bolt replacement here in Yosemite(over 2,000 bolts!), I feel that original holes are nearly always worn around the outer edge and should not be reused. This wearing of the bolt hole is the leading cause of bolt failure(with falls, or over time, the bottom edge of a bolt hole breaks or gets bigger, and this is how bolts commonly fail - they start to slip out of the hole, they bend over the widened hole-bottom, and break). How many years have you been replacing bolts Mike? How many have you replaced?
Yosemite is as awesome as ever. Living and working here has been an honor and I look forward to the climbing community coming together more, and dealing with sometimes sensitive issues in a way that makes us all appreciate each other more, and to grow stronger as a whole.
Woot Woot!
So much for "standing on the shoulders of the giants",
or "respecting the FA".
It's just "old codgers" now, is it.
Many of us are unconvinced, Woot guy.
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RyanD
climber
|
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
|
Erik Sloan has probably the best strategy in all of supertopo history for dealing with his haters. It makes me lolololololol every time.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:01am PT
|
Safe trails is like saying safe sex when an opportunity presents it's self. The participants may have the best of intentions but Mother Nature has the final decision.
Jim, your analogy cracks me up.
Good morning, and please Eric, don't use the w-word today.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 07:07am PT
|
Erik
You are by far the most disrespectful, condescending, self righteous and narcissistic climber (sadly) the world has to see. You provide only an example of the kind of person never to become.
Worse you peed in a dirty pond and reproduced so we can only hope he NEVER follows in your footsteps.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:12am PT
|
Kevin Thaw and Mark Synott defied Eric Kohl in the early 2000s by bolting natural belays on his A5 routes on El Cap.
Which routes, what pitches? I've climbed with both of those guys and I really doubt they would add bolts to a route unless there was a really good reason....not just because it was a "natural belay", and I doubt they were trying to defy Klaus. But hey I wasn't there...I'd love to hear the whole story.
Adding bolts to where there are only copperhead or piton placements? Now that's fµcked up....
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 09:29am PT
|
Not having been to the Valley in many years, I was a bit perplexed by this thread. Seemed that Sloan's detractors were probably making a big deal over (relatively) little things, maybe being a bit too cliquish. I figured he'd eventually show up and and make a reasonable argument.
But now that Sloan's had his say, it's clear that it really is better to stay silent and be thought a total fcukstick, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. He thinks that "modern climber ethics" require the infantilization of all other climbers. A Bowdlerization of the sport. Now that he's spoken, it's clear that most of the criticisms are unambiguously valid.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 11:42am PT
|
A Psychiatrist's wet dream.
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dhayan
climber
los angeles, ca
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 11:51am PT
|
Why not directly address each concern brought up? If you don't it seems that they are valid to the uninformed bystander like me. Dodging the questions and maintaining this facade of stoke seems really bizarre in my opinion, nothing personal - just an observation.
edit: In regards to the quote about some manifesto touting the dumbing down of climbs for the masses - if this is true, then the climbing community should understand that this is your intent so they can choose to support it or not.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
|
Bathsalts Sloany just don't care.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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Lurkingtard
climber
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
|
Fuuny, I've never heard one positive comment about Erik Sloan in all the years I've gone to the valley. A lot of negative stuff though. Now I understand. Thanks for clarifying that Mr Sloan.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
|
in 2012 Erik Sloan was spotted replacing the missing wall route on Porcelain wall! .. pretty kool hope i can get up that thing heard it's only a1
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
|
Dodging the questions and maintaining this facade of stoke seems really bizarre in my opinion
That bears a repeat bump!
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Scylax
Trad climber
Idaho
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
|
Sloan's Compressor Route? Seriously, some of the stuff I have read on this thread by Sloan reminds me of Maestri's "work" in Patagonia.😞
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overwatch
climber
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
|
That woot shit's as dumb as it gets
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 01:50pm PT
|
It's like Stuart Smalley: "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
|
I always wonder where the majority lies on Internet witch hunts. Maybe it's just a loud minority on here and there really are tons of climbers out there having fun and grateful to ES like he says? Maybe not? Woot?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
|
Maybe it's just a loud minority on here
Can't speak for a "majority," as I'm just one guy, but it's my perception that most climbers in general are not okay with people adding bolts that substantively change the character of pitches/routes.
If all ES did was replace anchor bolts (in original holes as much as possible), most would not perceive a problem. But that is not the whole extent of what he does.
And the "everything is great, everything is awesome, everything is fab, and everybody loves me, woot" bit is really wacky! He won't OWN the disagreement that genuinely does exist. Thus, no HONEST discussion can take place.
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Offset
climber
seattle
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
|
the taco is "a climbing community" not "THE climbing community"
and
on one thread:
"why do all the thread turn into terrible name calling"
on this thread:
"why won't he get down to our level of terrible name calling"
finally someone is positive no matter how vile some attacks get...and it seems to just p1ss people off more. kind of like little kids on the playground. only sad, because it's grown ups.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
|
finally someone is positive no matter how vile some attacks get
I don't think that that's an accurate summation. He's not "positive." He simply refuses to acknowledge even the EXISTENCE of legitimate concerns over his behavior. That is quite different (and downright odd, given the prima facie legitimacy of the questions).
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
|
This thread is winding down so fast, I can hardly keep up!
%^)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Oct 15, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
|
You old farts best speak up and put the next generation on the right track, because for the most part, today's young climbers are self-absorbed idiots with zero connection to the natural world.
They're also seemingly oblivious to the rising tide lifting all land managers'
boats which are almost universally arrayed to fight any and all bolting.
It's gonna be free soloing or bowling sooner than later.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
|
Erik is clearly not doing the right thing up there. And it is incredible that he continues to "stay positive" and "woot woot" when the vast majority of climbers posting here are telling him to stop. His perception that a majority of "current" climbers agree with him, and everyone else is a "has-been old timer who doesn't climb anymore" is similarly insane.
A Psychiatrist's wet dream.
Intense preoccupation with a narrow subject, one-sided verbosity, restricted prosody, physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar or odd) use of language are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis.
People with Asperger syndrome often display intense interests, such as this man's fascination with continually vandalizing a National Park with his lumberjack equipment and motorized rock drill.
The few people who support Erik and the hyper-drilling of every route in the Valley are people who want to be able to say, "I did a really hard A5 route", but they want to be able to clip a ladder of belay bolts up past the hard sections.
Someone should video tape Erik using his power drill in the Park, so that he can be appropriately convicted and confined to a Federal Detention Facility. At the very least, a petition to have him banned from National Parks seems to be in order.
He apparently can't control his compulsion to drill holes all over existing routes. He is a sociopath who needs to be restrained.
If the climbing community doesn't police its own actions, the Man will step in and do it for us. Sloan needs to be stopped.
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c wilmot
climber
|
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|
Oct 15, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
|
the quickest way to get bolting banned in Yosemite is to complain about it. The people who run the park hardly know what a bolt is let alone the "ethics" behind climbers installing them
|
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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have him banned from National Parks seems to be in order. This is not best way to deal with Erik.
The precedent of banning someone with initiative from climbers will hit as bumerang many of us later
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 15, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
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The precedent of banning someone with initiative
Initiative?
Like this sort of initiative?
I don't see how Erik is different from the guy who spray paints rocks in Joshua Tree. He violates Federal law with his power drill, and needlessly damages existing climbing routes that he unilaterally deems to be flawed and in need of in-pitch repair. When other climbers attempt to dissuade him, he ignores their concerns, and continues to vandalize the Park.
Chongo got banned from Yosemite just for hanging out in the cafeteria too much. If he can be banned, Erik should be banned.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
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Still waiting for a justification of the Great Slab Route bolt ladder. None has been given. I got a good look last year from Mideast Crisis, and it is a blight of bolts in an area of the Column where there are few other bolts. How is adding a bolt ladder around two whole pitches ever OK!?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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The people who run the park hardly know what a bolt is let alone the "ethics" behind climbers installing them
You really are stupid.
A lot of the people who run the Valley are still climbers now and have been for years.
They've done El Cap several times.
Stupid big mouth Supertopo loons never have a clue ......
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
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^^head Ranger Mike Gauthier, for one.
Known him for 20+ years.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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Individuals get banned from National Parks all the time for breaking the laws. Right CMac?
Woot!
I'm an "old codger" and probably not qualified to comment (half dozen grade V / VI first ascents A3 or harder- in the last decade though none in Yosemite). It bums me out to read that it is becoming accepted practice for people to add two bolt anchors to existing aid routes, particularly on some of the harder climbs which might feature creative natural anchors. Part of the challenge for us is minimizing the bolt / hole count. I think it is tough to understand for persons who have never done a first ascent or who were raised on the MP ethic of "every route must be detailed down to the last move and every placement must be known".
If this character has done half as much as he has been accused of in these various threads it seems a reasonable reply on his part would be appropriate. It is people like Erik Sloan which endanger the future generations of climbing in Yosemite. Woot! Woot!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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Woot the f#ck? Enough already. Anyone who says w---- more than once a decade should be banished to Arkansas.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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while SAR members know what a bolt is the heads of the various divisions most certainly do not. Yos is plagued by nepotism and many employees only qualification for working there was being ejaculated out of their NPS father
That said I have nothing but respect for your service with SAR Mr.Braun.
I was a stoopid trail worker for YOS though....I actually worked...big mistake
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Erik Sloan
Big Wall climber
Yosemitebigwall.com
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Oct 15, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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Man I love this thread, haha.
Madbolter1, Richard Jensen of Wings of Steel fame, who added bolts to all the belays on Sea of Dreams while doing the 4th ascent? Is that you?
Ok,ok, let's stay on topic for a sec....This thread is about Tens Days After. Who here has done it? Who thinks the bolts I replaced are good? Everyone I've talked to in the last ten years who has done the route was super psyched I replaced all those bolts.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 15, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
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^^Still no answers after all this time.
Just bad redirect - at least the "woot" is gone.
I am thankful for that.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Y'all should get out of Yosemite National Park some time and climb in a place that isn't the climbing equivalent of "The Kim Kardashian Reality TV Climbing Show."
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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Ethics are great to have.
Cling to them as the tide comes in.
Write a book about how rad it used to be.
El capitan is far too close to the road to stay pure.
You don't like it, go up there and chop em.
In 100 years the girdle traverse will be A0 if no one does.
Bottom line, there is no money in danger. Making things safer is how we got fat Texans on everest. We'll never get them to pay to hang off 1/4" spinners on El capitan.
Cuz that rock exists to make a buck off it, right?
One of the boldest things I ever did was haul off two equalized hooks on Sunkist. The bolts sucked, and weren't original anyway. I'm sure two fat asca bolts would have been nice at the time, but I'm richer for the experience.
The Hilti is a fact. That's not hearsay, Pete. FACT.
the trees and base lodge work are related, yet not in a way.
Related in motive, but totally unjustifiable as a safety concern.
But who am I to judge, I lent Potter a saw to cut the branch off the Yabo boulder.
The eternal sunshine thing is really annoying.
It's raining dude, a full squall.
"One can choose to ignore reality, but one can not ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." Ayn Rand.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
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Who added bolts to all the belays on Sea of Dreams while doing the 4th ascent? Is that you?
Let's say that we did. That would not make YOUR behaviors justifiable. It would only include me in YOUR condemnation, and you'd "have me" on inconsistency. Again, none of that would justify YOUR behaviors.
In point of fact, Mark and I were scrutinized during our fifth ascent of the Sea incredibly closely. Climbers literally took rotating shifts in the meadow to watch us via telescope, and Barbella and Brand were told to watch us closely during their FA of Heartland (right next to us during out mutual ascents). We know of both activities first-hand from some who engaged in them, and both Barbella and Brand told us what they had been told.
In point of fact, Mark and I added NO drilled placements to the Sea during our ascent, and that is a documented and WIDELY-known fact.
So, SHAME on you on all accounts! NOTHING justifies your behaviors.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
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I've been all over the world in some of the most remote places where none of you've been.
Horsesh#t.
You may have been to some remote and relatively unvisited places. Big deal. Do you have any idea where I, or any of a hundred other people who post here have been?
No, you don't.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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Ya, who cares anyway?
Ten days after isn't on El Cap.
Pave it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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Do you have any idea where I, or any of a hundred other people who post here have been?
Yep
I didn't see your name in the registrar ......
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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When Richard Jensen is lecturing you on ethics, you have really farced up big time.
But then again, Harding throwing up on my shoes is a cherished memory. So maybe it's like that...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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Only 60 posts as of 2005 - now triple that.
Well bumped Couchmaster!
Apparently things haven't changed much in the last 10 years.
That is a fairly long period of time to continuously piss people off.
Ya gotta give him credit for consistency!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 02:59am PT
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Ok,ok, let's stay on topic for a sec....This thread is about Tens Days After.
 Erik 'Nanook' Sloan
Erik,erik, you are (again) missing the bigger picture. This topic is not about the defacement of one particular route. Attempting to fixate on Ten Days After, as a diversion from the actual conversation, is childish, and not even slightly clever.
Ok,ok, let's get back on topic:
There are about a dozen routes mentioned in this thread, which you have damaged by some or all of the following:
over-drilling of all holes for large belay bolts
not properly pulling old rusty bolts, to reuse the old holes
smashing old bolts back and forth to break them off
adding unnecessary holes, including not reusing existing, old holes
adding belay bolt ladders to bypass existing, usable cracks
adding belay bolt ladders to bypass piton cracks, to make the route go "clean"
redrilling rivet ladders at will, ignoring the original spacing
replacing ladder dowels, rivets and 1/4" bolts with 3/8" belay bolts
adding in-pitch protection bolts on free sections
adding belay bolts at every station, regardless of natural anchors
using power equipment to maximize damage and defacement
You claim these destructive acts ostensibly help other climbers, by obviating their need for advanced rock climbing skills, like placing their own gear, constructing natural belays, using pitons, beaks and copperheads in tenuous placements, using skyhooks on small edges, top-stepping on reachy rivet ladders, maintaining composure during run-out, difficult free climbing, and continually meeting the ongoing challenges that are an inherent aspect and primary allure of big wall climbing.
By robbing those climbers of their opportunity to learn and use those advanced rock climbing skills, you degrade their experience in the National Park. In effect, you have taken it upon yourself to decide, for them, how they should climb in Yosemite.
Your self-image of "Erik the Babysitter Knows Best" is socially aberrant, and wholly antagonistic to the spirit of the freedom of rock climbing. You are like a repressed sexual deviate who feels compelled to spray-paint over the "dirty parts" of priceless artworks in the world's greatest museum, to "save the children from themselves".
It's not up to you to decide what Yosemite's masterpieces should look like. If you can't handle them as they are, then don't interact with them. Leave them alone, so that other, more mature individuals can enjoy them as they are, for all time.
Instead of invoking a few individuals, perhaps as depraved as you are, who agree with what you are doing, you should acknowledge and respond to the larger climbing community's concerns about what you are doing.
Reality is essentially a democratic process, and the numbers here are clearly against you. Certainly, history is also against you in this matter, and few, if any, rational climbers acknowledge your internally-generated pseudo-reality that allows you to discard over a century's worth of tradition on a myopic and deaf, egotistical and selfish whim.
Instead of being autistic with respect to communication from the group as a whole, you should strive to listen to what they are saying:
It is not appropriate to extrapolate from replacing rusty belay bolts to drilling the hell out of every route you climb. Properly replacing rusty belay bolts is a good thing. But, please, leave the rest of the route alone - as in, don't modify, drill, improve or otherwise change it, at all. Leave existing routes alone. If you can't control your psychotic urge to drill multiple holes on every route you climb, then stop climbing. Get some psychiatric help, if necessary.
If you can overcome your social infirmities in this respect, you will be able to A) empathize with the group; B) become a member of the group; C) stop your aberrant, anti-social and destructive behavior; and D) cease to be a hated and loathed deviate at risk of imprisonment, injury, or worse.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Oct 16, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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Way to go Erik!
Great job!!
Over 20+ years of pussifying routes!!
And illegally cutting branches too!!
You are an amazing steward of Yosemite..
Woot!
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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thanks finally for a reasonable response
Not that I agree with all of it
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:14am PT
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Quote: Well bumped Couchmaster! Apparently things haven't changed much in the last 10 years.
Yup, haven't seen so many twisted up panties on a ST thread since Ammon used that single piton on A route that had gone clean ONCE. There were pitchforks and torches out for Ammon on that one, and it was real long: this thread isn't there yet although the butthurt is deep and wide. The self-righteous ethics police F*#kers all but chased Ammon off the site and he unfortunately stayed away for quite some time. (sadly)
Time to ramp this one up?
HANG HIM!!!!!
Then bump the Ammon hate thread later once this dies off a tad? I would hope not.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:19am PT
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Whoa....
Yes, bolt spacing on bolt ladders should be appropriate for the average climber of today, not spaced however the first ascentionists put them.
Who decided this? I say no. Those guys drilled the rivets or bolts on the lead to reduce hole count, an now you are increasing hole count?! What about Kor routes? The bolts are far apart too?
Like a lot of folks, I will say thank you for REPLACING old bolts, but it sounds like you are adding them to routes so I will say NO THANK YOU and PLEASE STOP.
It seems like every climbing area has the local Drill Sargent who lives in a different world. I've met them all over the place....Cochise Stronghold, Boulder Canyon, Moab, etc., and some of the things they all have in common is they are convinced they are doing the world a lot of good and are completely oblivious to any kind of constructive criticism or negative feedback. And I've had face to face talks with these folks, saying I really don't appreciate some of the things they are doing; they smile and say "cool brah thanks for letting me know", then they post on the Internet saying "nobody had a problem with what I'm doing, it's all good bro brah, the only people who have problems are Internet whiners who don't climb anymore..."
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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So Couch, you just bumped the thread to twist panties and engender more hate? Nice work.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:25am PT
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Will someone please explain the nature of rebolting long wall routes in detail. Do all the belays get bolts for the security of the rebolting party and to allow retrieval of ropes without leaving gear? Are all top down, if not which were ground up?
Is a top down approach the culprit for making gear belays into permanent rap anchors? So how iS wall rebolting done?
What about an agreement to no rebolting of certain routes? Make a list.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:41am PT
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So who is going to snitch on him?
Doesn't snitching go against what the "old skool dads" stand for?
Erik is easy enough to find (you just have to actually BE in the valley.. omg!) - why not approach him and talk face to face?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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Therein lies the conundrum!
Not much of a conundrum as enforcement must not be in this year's budget.
Get Diane Feinstein to bring it up on the Senate floor and you'll see some action!
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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Old skool dads would have dealt with this in the parking lot. Pity those days are gone.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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OK, Erik, repairing existing, rotten belay bolts is VERY cool of you. I know how hard it is because I've pulled and redrilled forty or so myself up there. I don't think anybody has a problem with your redoing existing belay bolts.
But, some people, like me, think that the in-pitch gear should not be arbitrarily upgraded, and putting in additional holes (to bypass piton cracks???) is definitely off-limits. Certainly there are exceptions, like the one time a rivet broke on Bermuda Dunes, and a new hole had to be drilled right next to it.
But, wantonly drilling and sinking big fat belay bolts all over an existing route is deemed wrong by many people. I'll say it right here: I think it was wrong of you to do that to the dowel/rivet ladder on Son of Heart. I have been lucky to have not seen any other Nanooking on the other six El Cap routes I've done, because they were obscurities, and I got there before you got there with your drill.
This thread has many people decrying your overuse of bolts on existing routes. The Great Slab Route is one. Pegasus is another. Tangerine Trip is another. Other people just mention the practice in general, as if there are too many instances, everywhere in Yosemite, to list.
How you can continue to deny that many people think your mid-pitch "improvements" are highly inappropriate? Just because "putting in new belay bolts" is acceptable doesn't mean that "putting in new bolts" is acceptable. It is widely held, by many climbers, going all the way back to the 60's (and to the 2005 start of this thread) that belay anchors necessarily have a different status than in-pitch protection and aid placements. The belay anchors should be extremely reliable, the in-pitch gear, perhaps not so much. Somehow, you are not acknowledging (or are ignoring) this crucial difference. You are treating all mid-pitch placements as if they need to be able to hold long falls. You are bypassing the "rules of the game", which is to get up using what is there on the rock. Getting up by using a power drill is not only cheating, it cheats all other climbers who come along later.
If there are so many rotten bolts still out there, why not do this:
Focus solely on the rotten belay bolts, and replace those. Leave the in-pitch gear as-is. Don't dissipate your limited resources by playing Safety Queen, and Nanooking the ever-living sh#t out of every route you climb. Stick to the basics, the belay bolts.
If someone breaks a rivet on ZM, or some other hard-assed thing, so what? Part of the fun up there is playing Russian Rawlette. Who are you to take that fun away from them? I'm not talking about the noob trade routes, here. You have been Nanooking even difficult, obscure routes. Who the F goes up the Great Slab Route? Only some hard-asses who definitely do NOT need your assistance, thank you very much.
If you must replace or repair ladders on these mid-to-high level routes, don't use a string of belay bolts. Use 1/4" x 1.5" stainless steel split-shaft buttonhead Rawls. They won't corrode rapidly, and they can be yanked out rather easily. The new one goes right into the old hole PRESTO! No drilling required. Rivet ladders are not supposed to be elongated belay anchors. They are supposed to be scary as hell. That's why people go up on the Big Wall.
If they want to be safe, they go to a Dogtown surf spot, and fist fight the locals over the right to get in the lineup to be eaten by a wayward Tiger shark.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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That's not it.
The park service doesn't want to be sued or blamed for stopping someone from preventing deaths.
He makes it safer and easier, we all agree on that, even him.
Try arguing the other side of that argument in court to nonclimbers.
Wait, you want it to be more dangerous and limited who can use it to only those with vast expert level experience?
Good luck with that in context of land management.
The trees and the base work is all you can really say.
From nps pov he is reducing the number of fatalities and rescues, thereby reducing their costs.
The vision presented of 4 1/2" I bolts at every belay is just too much for me to take.
Why bother to climb at all, what is the reward with no risk?
"Go to the valley and talk to him"...
The valley is a circus with lots of clowns, trained bears, and animal tenders. It's only allure for me was the big and wild rock faces.
Take that away, and it is overcrowded, overpriced, and overpoliced.
Quite possible the worst place to hang in any mountain area in the USA.
Edit to add- well said Mr Fox.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Will someone please explain the nature of rebolting long wall routes in detail. Do all the belays get bolts for the security of the rebolting party and to allow retrieval of ropes without leaving gear? Are all top down, if not which were ground up?
It's done both ways. Routes on Glacier Point and Royal Arches aprons have been done rap-in, drill, rap, repeat.
When I've done it, it's been ground up: climb a pitch to a belay, pull the old bolts, redrill, and insert new, bigger bolts. Then, set up the belay for hauling and cleaning. Basically, you climb a pitch and the last two or three pieces are redrilling and replacing the belay bolts. Then, the pitch is finished, and it's ready to be cleaned and hauled. Sometimes, it's possible to use the crack above the belay to set up a gear belay running up the crack, so that the second can be cleaning while one bolt at a time can be pulled and repaired. Usually, if there are enough strong gear placements at a belay, there won't be any bolts (at least in the good old codger days . . . . ) But, I've climbed up and set the first five or so pieces in an A1/C1 crack, and equalized them to use just one of the belay bolts while monkeying with the other. Using this setup, the leader can go off, climbing solo-style, while the second works on repairing the belay bolts.
What about an agreement to no rebolting of certain routes? Make a list.
What a great idea!
I'll start the list:
NO REBOLTING OF ANY ROUTE IN YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK; BELAY BOLT REPAIR NOT INCLUDED IN THIS LIST; MID-PITCH REBOLTING STRICTLY FORBIDDEN
edit:
ECF has a great point, regarding the Nanook Conundrum.
The NPS wants people to be safe, but they don't want the natural surroundings to be disturbed.
For example, the Half Dome via Ferrata has been a man-killer for years.
What is astonishing is that more people haven't died fighting their way up the outside of the cable path to bypass inert blobs within. Just recently, the NPS decided to issue permits, and have a toll-booth worker stand at the base. They could have put up a third cable, and painted UP and DOWN arrows for the two lanes, but that would alter the natural surroundings. So, they issue permits and collect a toll.
Nanooking routes definitely makes them safer. But, is that what we want? To make all the routes safer?
What about that hellish Merced River. That thing is a man killer, too. Why not call Mr. O'Shaughnessy out of retirement and get a dam? That'll stop that devilish water from flowing the innocent to their untimely deaths.
Why not just foam-pad the entire nation and create the World's Biggest Rubber Room?
Definitely a Conundrum.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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Cool, but I would like to see WoS get Nanooked.
Lol
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Do many of the anti-rebolt camp here drive around in rusted out old 1960''s plymouths as well?
Keep it real!
Woot!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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Dirty Dog, you almost got me right, but not quite.
I have pulled in-pitch gear that was rotten and rusty. The difference is that I have never Nanooked a pitch. I have put stainless 1/4" buttonheads in after pulling out 1/4" rusty plated rawls. I have also re-installed Zamacs when the FA team requested it. And, I have even used 5/16" and 3/8" stainless machine screws (not grade 5). I have been on El Cap exactly twice when an additional hole had to be drilled mid-pitch. I have probably added an additional belay bolt or two in the course of doing seven walls.
Nanooking is the process of doing in-pitch repairs that are overkill. A ladder of 3/8" belay bolts and hangers is not the same thing as a ladder of SS machine heads, or SS buttonheads. Power drilling past an existing rivet ladder, arbitrarily, so that it is easier to reach the placements is Nanooking. Adding protection bolts to an existing free climbing section is Nanooking. Drilling additional holes, and increasing the hole count on an existing route is Nanooking.
Super-Nanooking is the process of drilling holes and putting in a ladder of belay bolts right next to a perfectly good piton or copperhead crack, just so the route can "go clean". Ironically, the first time I heard of this in Yosemite, it wasn't done by Nanook, but by Todd Skinner. It was on the Dihedral Wall so that a thin piton pitch could be free-climbed without having to place A3 pro. Those bolts have since been removed.
In-pitch gear repair is generally good. Nanooking a pitch with belay bolts is bad. Erik "Nanook" Sloan apparently can't differentiate between the two extremes, so the general call to him is to stop, completely.
Nobody thinks that an aid pitch should be a line of time bombs. But, almost nobody thinks all of the in-pitch gear should be belay anchors.
edit:
Do many of the anti-rebolt camp here drive around in rusted out old 1960''s plymouths as well?
1989 Range Rover - aluminum body, but the back hatch is steel, and yes, it's rusty.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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If they want to be safe, they go to a Dogtown surf spot, and fist fight the locals over the right to get in the lineup to be eaten by a wayward Tiger shark.
I love some of the flowery writing on this site.
Thanks for making me laugh out loud.
fist-bump
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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If you think the NPS should be involved with this then somebody should send an official letter with evidence of the malfeasance. Otherwise, it is just hearsay. I doubt that they will investigate it themselves since I imagine they have things to do that are more important in their eyes. Gathering clear evidence might be more difficult than imagined. Before and after?
Someone suggested talking to the culprit face to face and the same would apply to the LEO in charge. See if you have a case. Simple. No wasted breath or typing flurries.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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It would be ironic if someone goes to the NPS with a formal comaint.
"Quit doing stuff or the park will get involved and ruin it for future climbers."
"Hey NPS, come look at what climbers are doing and please help regulate it!"
Climbers complaining about offenders have a better track record of closing places down than offenders themselves.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:16am PT
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I have to ask, reluctantly prolonging this current thread direction, a question to Erik regarding what he posted up above:
Yosemite has been held hostage by old codger attitudes that are gradually being replaced by modern climber ethics, like having well marked trails and bolted belays(sponsored climbers like Kevin Thaw and Mark Synott defied Eric Kohl in the early 2000s by bolting natural belays on his A5 routes on El Cap. Why should the easy routes be any different?), and bolts where only pitons or copperheads fit on clean bigwall routes. Climber impact in Yosemite is inevitable. Today's climbers are trying to do their best to preserve the cliff for future generations.
In particular, what is this "modern climber ethic"?
The "old codger attitudes" were mainly formed by a brilliant, if obvious, observation made back in the "Iron Age" and brought to the attention of the entire climbing community: "Even now, existing techniques and technology are so powerful that almost any climb imaginable can be realized, and the fear of the unknown reduced to rote exercise."
"Even now" refers to 1974, and while many (if not most) of those you refer to as "modern climbers" were not even born then, it doesn't seem all that long ago for an old codger like me.
You offer a justification for the many of your actions in Yosemite Valley, that of the "modern climber ethic." Yet, unlike the "old codger attitude," we have no idea what those modern ethics are, and given that the actions of any climber in Yosemite Valley affects all climbers who would climb in the Valley, it is important that the climbing community, the entire community, understand just what these "modern climber ethics" are.
As far as I know, neither you nor anyone else has described them, or described why the seemingly self evident "old codger attitude," an eloquent appeal to recognize there is more to climbing than "just climbing", no longer applies.
This debate is not a new one, but it should continue to be a debate, a discussion for all climbers. The designations of "locals" and "outsiders" is not very helpful, the authorities recognize "climbers" among all visitors, and the action of "climbers" is applied to the entire activity of climbing.
If there is a "modern climber ethic" which supersedes the "traditional ethic" rooted in the values of "...adventure and appreciation of the mountain environment itself..." it is very important to state just what it is.
We can debate the meaning of the concepts of "adventure" and what constitutes "environmental concern," we probably all have different ideas, but these meanings arise from, and derive their legitimacy and power from our collective experience, a collective that spans historic eras and broad locations.
None of us live in Yosemite Valley, most of us have no family claim to having settled in the Valley, we are all visitors and guests there. As guests we benefit from the hospitality of the citizens of the United States who welcome us to this wonderful place. But we have responsibilities as guests, too, and if climbers are perceived as taking advantage of the hospitality our welcome could be curtailed or revoked, at least in terms of our climbing traditions.
You seem to think this is "inevitable" and you seem to have "the answer." Since it affects me directly, I'd like to know more about what guides your thinking and your actions.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Wayno, the crucial issue here is whether or not the climbing community can police itself, without the intervention of LEO. Many people are outraged at what Erik has done, and the way he has done it. There is a certain level of illegality to his actions, but unless someone films it on their iPhone, there is no proof, ergo, no case. Also, bringing in the Man would be a failure of the essential goal of climbers, which is to police their activity themselves, and not have rules be decreed from on high.
What this forum is trying to do is convince Erik to at least recognize that what he is doing is antagonistic to the climbing community, or at least those who were born before 1995 (or whatever). At this point, he at least is being more honest about what he is doing, and offering some rationale. This is a good start.
I still think he is going about his business of repairing existing routes in a hideously wrong fashion. But, at least there is some discourse.
Cool, but I would like to see WoS get Nanooked.
Ironically, that is one route where it might make sense that all the in-pitch drilled gear (BION, there really isn't that much) upgraded to 3/8" bolts. I have seen that route up close, and it is the future of free climbing, let me tell you. WOS Apron is to now, what the Glacier Point Apron was to 1960. I've seen steeper, smoother rock on New Dawn that Leo Houlding free climbed. There's even harder free stuff on Dawn Wall, so why not WOS going free?
Mark and Richard would probably give their blessing for upgrading the in-pitch bolts, if someone wanted to free climb their route. I replaced two pitches of drilled stuff, including two 3/8" ASCA bolts at each belay. There are new Zamac rivets and some bolts mid-pitch. It's kinda runout. Have at it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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I agree Tom, but is this "discussion" we have here getting through to the culprit or pushing him further away from discourse? To me it looks like a gang-tackle that we see in football when there is a fumble. At some point all this back and forth is just that and nothing is solved. I think some that respond here could care less if the "problem" is ever addressed in a functional way. These kinds of threads seem pointless to me after a certain point. Nothing is resolved and nobody changes their cherished beliefs. They go on and on and a handful of people wait with baited breath for their next chance to post. This will go on and on and then another thread will start saying it all over and over. Sure there are many issues facing the climbing community that could be resolved if the participants really wanted to do that, but it won't happen here. Trial by Facebook.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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The original sin was the bullshit drilling of rivet ladders and use of copperheads, etc. in the first place. It's just the aid version of chipping holds. No matter how these routes are maintained in the future there will always be disputes because they were built on an unsound foundation.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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policing our own community sounds great in theory until that leads to violence and then the real police are involved.
the days of fist fighting in the parking lot with impunity are long gone
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Nobody has chased me off, Couch. I've been here all along, I just don't click on non climbing threads and don't comment on much drama. I do try and contribute with stoke and passion for climbing, once in a while.
As for this topic... I consider Erik a friend, he's a neat guy with tons of great qualities. But, I don't agree with some of what I've seen in his aftermath.
Eric, it's pretty simple, really: If we wanted to have comforts on a big wall, we probably wouldn't have left the ground.
Woot! Wait... what?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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Finally: a voice of reason.
Ammon saved us from the conflict of Wings of Steel.
Perhaps now he can save us from the conflict of Nanooked Big Walls.
Blessed is the peacemaker, for he makes the peace.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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In addition to the effects of increased bolting on the routes themselves, making routes easier may not actually make people safer, due to the phenomenon of risk compensation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
In brief, as the Wikipedia entry puts it, "people typically adjust their behavior in response to the perceived level of risk."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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Kind of weird that people for whom climbing is such an important part of their lives don't really understand climbing style and ethics.
Nature presented a challenge. The FA team climbed those pitches in the best style they could. Future teams leave those pitches as close to the original ascent condition as possible, to do otherwise is unethical.
The idea that you could add bolts to a bolt ladder so everyone who is 5.7" could clip them is ridiculous and shows Erik doesn't really understand climbing ethics. Personally I like reachy bolt ladders. It's just a bolt ladder but top stepping and arcing back, or figuring out how to lean to the side while staying balanced, or making a blind placement from the top bolt, is what makes bolt ladders fun. Now Erik wants to make them so most people don't even have to reach? How about a stick clip for those vertically challenged? I just use this as a good example of something that should be clear cut, but if you can't understand this simple example of why you don't change the nature of the climbing it indicates you probably are making other mistakes.
I can only make a few trips to the valley per year, I'm not going to waste my precious time there having a conversation about climbing ethics and style. So to me this is a perfect forum for having these discussions. I "own" Yosemite just as much as someone who spends much more time there. It's a public park.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Oh for crying out loud, poop on his rope and call it a day. Then we'll get a chance to post on another thread "discussing" the "merits" of fiber diets.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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I have yet to hear a compelling reason why the FA party should blanket own the route
Oh, yeah? If Bridwell, Hawkins, and a few other dudes got you back by
the dumpsters behind Degnans you'd understand why.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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as I said in the parallel thread...
the FA team did the first ascent... that is unique... they did it without knowing any details about the route...
they didn't die doing it, they didn't get seriously injured...
everyone who comes later has at least that FA report, and can make a decision based on it.
why would you change the route in light of the fact that the FA team pulled off the ascent, demonstrating that it could be done?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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Spot on, Mike!
There are routes to suit all tastes and styles. No one person should imagine that they have any right to "homogenize" all routes.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
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Not everything is meant for one and all to climb.
The masses were never meant to climb either.
It's the warrior class.
It's now infiltrated and run by the pussy class.
The pussy class is trying to imitate the warrior class.
Some routes have been done in a certain way for a reason of high caliber.
When the world has become soft the soft will come to alter these routes to their present soft consciousness.
And thus the world will continue to slide downhill into softness (pussyfide)
It's happening because the fools "think" there's only one life period.
They are clueless .......
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 16, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
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fivethirty said:
As a "young" climber, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why the FA party should blanket own the route.
This is an honest and appropriate question from a poster who's been consistently positive and upbeat on this site. He's clearly an actual climber and is also the type of poster that makes Supertopo better.
So here's my stab at answers:
1. This ethic avoids chaos:
If the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? It bears repeating - what "rule" would apply if it isn't this one?
It seems obvious that if any climbing party could add bolts to any route, total chaos would result. To an extent, the same result would follow if any party could subtract bolts from a climb, too.
There's no way that all climbers will ever agree on what is the higher value as between safety and risk. Parties will (and do) disagree on what makes a good route. They disagree on what makes a fun route, and they disagree on what makes a challenging route. There won't be agreement on this subject in general and there won't be agreement on it as to various, specific climbing routes. And so, if there is no "rule," no strongly held consensus of whether a route can be "changed" after it's first ascent (especially by the addition or subtraction of bolts), parties will add bolts and they might also subtract them at will.
In short, total chaos would result. Neither the rock itself (which is highly worthy of respect) nor the climbing community would benefit from such chaos.
A hard and fast rule (especially one steeped in tradition and history; see below) is one very good way to avoid such chaos. It may be the only way.
2. This ethic is clean and easy to apply:
Again, if the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? What rule will apply?
If this rule isn't valid, then can a route be changed after the first ascent by consensus? If so, how strong a consensus, and who decides? How is a consensus to be formed? Would a consensus to make a route more dangerous require a stronger consensus?
What about leaving such decisions in the hands of the "best" climbers? Would that work? As an exercise, find me five climbers who can agree on what makes up the "best" climber. Just five who agree. Not likely?
Am I a "better" climber because I handle risk better than my buddy who climbs only on "safe" routes? Or is he the better climber because he leads 5.12s, while I max out on 5.11s?
I can't imagine a different "clean" rule, one that's easy to apply and is thus likely to be followed by a vast majority. Can any other climber here plainly and clearly describe such a rule?
3. This ethic has a strong tradition:
This argument in favor of letting the first ascent party "own" a route - "tradition" - is the best known and most frequently made. And it's a damn good argument to many. It's especially a good argument to those who enjoy the history of our sport. After all, what place in history would routes like Bacher Yerian (in Tuolumne Meadows), or Conduit to the Cosmos (at Pinnacles) have if they'd been dumbed down by subsequent ascents?
4. This ethic would prevent the "dumbing down" of all routes:
I, for one, value risk as an essential element of climbing. I'm glad that I'll never exist in a climbing world where all routes are "safe." I even resent those who try to make all routes "safe." Should all routes be safe? Aren't there plenty of safe routes around? Or should all climbs be gym-like so that injury is factored out and climbing becomes an exercise in outdoor gymnastics?
The question is phrased in a way that makes my answer to it clear. Is there really any climber out there who wants all routes to be equally safe? And, in the unlikely event that anyone can truly answer "yes' to this question, don't we circle back to the question: "then who gets to decide what "safe" means?
5. This ethic shows respect for others:
So, a clear and easy to apply "rule" prevents dumbing down every climb; it prevents chaos. What other value does such an ethic have? It fosters respect for others, respect for other people; in this case other climbers who came before us.
The older I get, the more that I value respect and kindness toward other people. In climbing and in life in general, discounting other people's values can be insulting and disrespectful. In this sport, there's tons of safe climbs out there, and tons that aren't safe. Is it really ever necessary to "tell" the first ascent party that their decisions were "bad" decisions by altering what they did?
I don't think so. As demonstrated in other threads on this forum, other climbers are willing to do that (and, ironically, the "other," disrespected climbers are then willing to be jerks to the original offenders and thus perpetuate a vicious cycle).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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If you ran across a crag in the woods with old crappy bolts or old pins or whatever and it hadn't been climbed at for 25 years, I don't think it would be any great loss retrobolt those routes. It's not like anyone was there enjoying them in the mean time and as the popularity of the sport grows congestion at crags is real.
You might rebolt the original route, you might replace the pins, and you might do all this on lead...
that would properly recognize the FA's vision on the route.
As far as the convenience of "opening up more rock" because of congestion at the crags?
If you have any example where this has actually worked I'd be interested to hear about it... I think it is an argument made as a "hypothetical."
Congestion at crags is caused by lots of climbers climbing what they are told are the routes to climb. In Yosemite Valley, there are 4000 routes (2500 in the last comprehensive guide). I doubt that 90% of those see many climbers...
...this is a justification of retro-bolting which routes in order to reduce congestion? It would be great to have a list...
There are many fewer aid routes, it would seem even more problematic to apply the "reduce congestion on the Nose" by opening up which El Cap routes? Or WFLT by bringing Ten Days After down to its level?
And who decides that "congestion" is a problem, and being so, requires mitigation?
"If you ran across a crag in the woods..."
have you ever? I have, and in Yosemite... leave it be or replace what is there in need of replacing. Don't add... or take away...
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 16, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
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WBraun wrot:
It's the warrior class.
It's now infiltrated and run by the pussy class.
The pussy class is trying to imitate the warrior class.
Some routes have been done in a certain way for a reason of high caliber.
When the world has become soft the soft will come to alter these routes to their present soft consciousness.
And thus the world will continue to slide downhill into softness (pussyfide)
It's happening because the fools "think" there's only one life period.
They are clueless ....
Godamn too funny!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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Old guys butthurt about old mank hardware getting replaced get slanderous
Nobody is "butthurt" about old, mank hardware getting replaced. That claim is itself slanderous. The vast majority are rightfully unhappy about ONE guy unilaterally taking it upon himself to entirely change the character of entire routes, particularly when he pounds his own chest about it.
real climber
Who might that be? ES? Opinions vary on that point! Drilling an existing route down to your (low) level is not being a "real climber." Werner is spot-on regarding the pussification of existing warrior routes.
and they revert to their usual spewing of ethical prattle
It's "prattle" to express unhappiness at the pussification of existing routes? LOL
Such a "summary" is a pussification of legitimate discussion.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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530 you're not running your mouth, you are engaging in a discussion and seem willing to learn. If more people were like that we wouldn't run into these issues as much.
The leave the route as the FA did it "rule" isn't arbitrary, it's well thought out and really the only practical idea that I can think of that will preserve the original challenge of most routes as previous posters have discussed.
It's not perfect for reasons you mention. But the few cases where it limits the popularity of some climbs is an acceptable trade off for helping to maintain many other routes IMO.
For the record I'm not against adding belay bolts (I'd prefer the minimum number of the beefiest bolts for aesthetic reasons) and rap routes, because they don't affect the nature of the actual climbing. Unless it's some A5 horror show, where a sketchy belay is PART of the challenge of the climb, then you must leave it alone.
I'm not really opposed to changing rivet ladders to bolts, because that is contrived difficulty IMO, but a big part of the challenge of climbing is mental, so if an FAist wants to leave sketchy rivets as part of that challenge I think we should respect that wish. But for climbs like the Nose where Harding left the bolts hanging out because it was taking too long to put them in all they way, and with the nature of that route, then putting in the best hardware in is fine.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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What about replacing/filling a bathook hole with a rivet? FA’s rights versus ‘if you drill it, fill it?’
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
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Awesome rant by WBraun!
Really tops - 9/10!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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Awesome rant by WBraun!
Really tops - 9/10!
He really does hit it perfectly now and then :)
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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Wbraun +1000000000000000000000
Truth.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 16, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
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fivethirty,
I like your views and your posts have made me curious about your age. Would you be willing to post how old you are here?
Also, I'd be happy to run into you at Pinns this season.
Any chance you're working at the trails work weekend the last weekend of this month (next weekend)?
If not, look around while you're climbing there in the next few months. Look for an old guy ranting about ethics (or, actually just ranting in general).
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
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Wade quote: "So Couch, you just bumped the thread to twist panties and engender more hate? Nice work. "
No, I bumped it because it was climbing content I tripped over and there were so many non-climbing topics on the front page. The panty twisting was an unintended consequence. I guess I should have expected it. Intersting that RS asked twice for a first hand report from a person who has climbed the route and no one has stepped up.
I know nobody could ever chase you off Ammon, but I thought that having a bunch of people who admittedly have great keyboard skills, but couldn't carry your jock strap at the rocks, all pouncing on you and giving you needless crap for a single pin, was way too much for me and I felt bad for you cause it was bullsh#t.
Werner - great rant! Woot Woot !!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
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Indeed, props, fivethirty. You've shown some admirable maturity and restraint here, imho. Thanks for genuinely contributing.
And THANKS, Werner.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Oct 16, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
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I got lost on Mid East Crisis and ended up finishing up on what I later learned was Saddam Hussein. We topped out at a bolt ladder exiting over the lip near where Great Slab Route exits. At the time I was blown away someone would hand drill all those bolts exiting the roof. Now I realize those were power drilled by Mr Sloan. Not so impressed now.
How does one get away with consistently using a power drill in the park? I now see after doing a couple of searches on supertopo, he's been called out since 2005. WTF? If the climbing community can't contain and eliminate acts like this then it will end up being dealt with by park officials.
Out of the 2000+ bolts, how many were power drilled? Lets make it easier...how many were hand drilled?
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 06:52pm PT
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I am guessing older generations thought swami belts were part of the pussification too
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 16, 2015 - 06:52pm PT
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fivethirty,
With your obvious affection for Pinns, you should probably join us on the Mudn'Crud site too (although I've got a sneaking suspicion that you've at least visited that site).
I'm hoping to replace Conduit's first pitch anchors with Jim McCon this season (as you likely know, he's one of that route's first ascent authors). While the second pitch anchor is in great shape, the first pitch anchor doesn't inspire as much confidence. And I think Jim was going to replace some of the lead bolts with more modern stuff too (he's retired now).
So there might be bolting activity on that route this season. But it'd be LEGITIMATE bolting activity ;)
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
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Butt hurt...another overused dumb -f*#king supertopo gem
vvvvvvvvv
Not likely
I don't even know what it means.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 17, 2015 - 12:12am PT
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^^^^
Someone's butthurt.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 17, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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False analogy: unlike Sloan's actions, swami belts didn't permanently damage anyone except their owners.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 17, 2015 - 09:47am PT
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Cool, thanks.
And just as I expected, it doesn't apply to me.
Edit;
IRL= Indy Racing League?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 17, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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I'll never woot! again bump.
Just sayin' - I lost the love in here somewhere...
It's cool, though.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 17, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
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If it were only Ten Years After, I would have something to say. Alvin Lee!
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Oct 17, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
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Truly outstanding and eloquent, Mtnyoung:
fivethirty said:
"As a "young" climber, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why the FA party should blanket own the route."
This is an honest and appropriate question from a poster who's been consistently positive and upbeat on this site. He's clearly an actual climber and is also the type of poster that makes Supertopo better.
So here's my stab at answers:
1. This ethic avoids chaos:
If the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? It bears repeating - what "rule" would apply if it isn't this one?
It seems obvious that if any climbing party could add bolts to any route, total chaos would result. To an extent, the same result would follow if any party could subtract bolts from a climb, too.
There's no way that all climbers will ever agree on what is the higher value as between safety and risk. Parties will (and do) disagree on what makes a good route. They disagree on what makes a fun route, and they disagree on what makes a challenging route. There won't be agreement on this subject in general and there won't be agreement on it as to various, specific climbing routes. And so, if there is no "rule," no strongly held consensus of whether a route can be "changed" after it's first ascent (especially by the addition or subtraction of bolts), parties will add bolts and they might also subtract them at will.
In short, total chaos would result. Neither the rock itself (which is highly worthy of respect) nor the climbing community would benefit from such chaos.
A hard and fast rule (especially one steeped in tradition and history; see below) is one very good way to avoid such chaos. It may be the only way.
2. This ethic is clean and easy to apply:
Again, if the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? What rule will apply?
If this rule isn't valid, then can a route be changed after the first ascent by consensus? If so, how strong a consensus, and who decides? How is a consensus to be formed? Would a consensus to make a route more dangerous require a stronger consensus?
What about leaving such decisions in the hands of the "best" climbers? Would that work? As an exercise, find me five climbers who can agree on what makes up the "best" climber. Just five who agree. Not likely?
Am I a "better" climber because I handle risk better than my buddy who climbs only on "safe" routes? Or is he the better climber because he leads 5.12s, while I max out on 5.11s?
I can't imagine a different "clean" rule, one that's easy to apply and is thus likely to be followed by a vast majority. Can any other climber here plainly and clearly describe such a rule?
3. This ethic has a strong tradition:
This argument in favor of letting the first ascent party "own" a route - "tradition" - is the best known and most frequently made. And it's a damn good argument to many. It's especially a good argument to those who enjoy the history of our sport. After all, what place in history would routes like Bacher Yerian (in Tuolumne Meadows), or Conduit to the Cosmos (at Pinnacles) have if they'd been dumbed down by subsequent ascents?
4. This ethic would prevent the "dumbing down" of all routes:
I, for one, value risk as an essential element of climbing. I'm glad that I'll never exist in a climbing world where all routes are "safe." I even resent those who try to make all routes "safe." Should all routes be safe? Aren't there plenty of safe routes around? Or should all climbs be gym-like so that injury is factored out and climbing becomes an exercise in outdoor gymnastics?
The question is phrased in a way that makes my answer to it clear. Is there really any climber out there who wants all routes to be equally safe? And, in the unlikely event that anyone can truly answer "yes' to this question, don't we circle back to the question: "then who gets to decide what "safe" means?
5. This ethic shows respect for others:
So, a clear and easy to apply "rule" prevents dumbing down every climb; it prevents chaos. What other value does such an ethic have? It fosters respect for others, respect for other people; in this case other climbers who came before us.
The older I get, the more that I value respect and kindness toward other people. In climbing and in life in general, discounting other people's values can be insulting and disrespectful. In this sport, there's tons of safe climbs out there, and tons that aren't safe. Is it really ever necessary to "tell" the first ascent party that their decisions were "bad" decisions by altering what they did?
I don't think so. As demonstrated in other threads on this forum, other climbers are willing to do that (and, ironically, the "other," disrespected climbers are then willing to be jerks to the original offenders and thus perpetuate a vicious cycle).
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Oct 17, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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I, along with many others, are sick of seeing routes getting "Nannoked". That is what happens when Erik Sloan climbs a route. He brings a power drill, then proceeds to drill the piss out of the hard sections to make it "user friendly" and then lies about it or says he did a "public service".
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:18am PT
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Yeah, Mtnyoung said it best. If not the existing system of respecting the first ascent team, then what? Chaos. And chaos is exactly what Erik Sloan is creating. Worse, Sloan is operating from a position of self-conferred righteousness. Sloan pontificates about the "rationale" for what he does, inspiring others to also go up and Nanook existing routes.
How does one get away with consistently using a power drill in the park?
By using a foam pad and a small haul bag. You wrap the drill motor in foam, to form a tube that surrounds the drill bit. You press the mouth of the foam tube against the rock and blast away. The brittle, high-pitched harmonics are easily muffled, leaving a low-frequency, low-volume throbbing drone that doesn't really register as a power drill to people who can hear it. The small haul bag is used to carry and contain the rig, and to further muffle the noise.
I've done this on concrete, to confirm what people told me was Nanook's methodology. I've never done it to rock. I have always hand-drilled the climbing bolts I have replaced. This technique could be useful in construction, if you have to drill concrete in a residential neighborhood, or inside a house. It would probably also work for a jackhammer (OOPS! I hope he doesn't see that . . . . )
REBOLT VS RETRO-BOLT
I think I now understand part of the younger climbers' confusion. One minute they're confused, and suggesting that older climbers are advocating leaving rusty, rotten, dangerous bolts and fixed gear in place. Then, they say that, logically, it should be OK to get rid of the rotten gear. Then, they extrapolate from that to where it's OK drill all over existing routes.
Repeatedly, in this thread and elsewhere on Supertopo, I have seen REBOLT confused with RETROBOLT. Some clarification here would seem to be in order.
REBOLT = replacing damaged, worn, corroded or otherwise unsound drilled anchors that were placed by the first ascent party, or very judiciously placed later after thought, consultation and/or deliberation. Replacing a fixed piton with a drilled bolt may or may not be rebolting, but generally, not.
This is what ASCA seeks to do, to remove dangerous old bolts with new ones. The idea here is to restore, not change, an existing route. Virtually all climbers, including crustancient old farts like me, believe this to be a proper thing to do. Again, the route is restored to its original condition, or close to it. The route is not dramatically changed.
RETROBOLT = adding additional holes and drilled anchors to an existing route, thereby increasing the hole count and changing the route from what the first ascent team intended. This also refers to replacing existing mid-pitch bolts, dowels and rivets with extremely different gear, such as using a ladder of belay bolts and hangers to replace a ladder of rivets. Retrobolting also refers to redrilling an existing rivet ladder, with different spacing of placements, to make it less "reachy". Retrobolting also refers to adding extra protection bolts on an established free climb. Drilling a ladder of bolts to bypass a piton crack to make the route "go clean" is retrobolting. So is adding protection bolts to an aid climb so that it can "go free".
The vast majority of climbers from the Warrior Class (thanks, Werner - you're the Best) and even some from the Pussy Class think retrobolting is very, very wrong. The only things worse are chiseling new holds, or using spray paint to mark up a route. ASCA has specifically distanced itself from any "helpers" who engage in retrobolting, and ASCA will readily come forth (as Greg Barnes did above) to denounce any such retrobolting and the people who do it.
Retrobolting does not restore a route; it can change it dramatically. The intent and the result is typically to make the route easier. When the route is changed to make it easier, better climbers are robbed of the opportunity to do it as originally intended. In rare instances, retrobolting is appropriate, such as new bolts on Half Dome to compensate for whole sections of the Regular Route that have fallen off. In general, though, retrobolting an existing route without the consent of the FA team is considered to be bad form, and bad for the route.
So, that's why the Dinosaur Class bewails and wrings its hands and gnashes it's teeth when you go up and put in ladders of belay bolts to bypass the hard pitches of a classic big wall route, and then you go online to puff up and brag. It sounds, to us, like this:
I just did a really hard Layton Kor route on the East Face of the Washington Column. I'm bitchen as hell. I'm as cool as Layton Kor. Wait! I'm better than Layton Kor, because I post my Selfies on Facebook. I rule! I'm as bitchen as Kylie Jenner. Whoa, brah, check me out, and then Friend me, and then Like my update!
You kids are damn lucky that Warriors like Bridwell and Co. are well past the hard-knuckled prime of their Degnan's dumpster days.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:50am PT
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Wow....And I thought that there was too much drama in the early 70's! Well, standards change.....climbs get harder so why shouldn't the pissing matches get nastier?
They just opened up a whole new area of 6000 meter granitic peaks in the Garwhal, Himalaya. Why don't you guys take your Valley honed skills out there, you won't have to worry about what the neighbors think and you won't be treading on anyone else's property.
The Valley is a 7 by 1 mile ditch and is the geologic equivalent of a small town.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:30am PT
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Did I step on somebody's itsy, bitsy toes? So sorry, I'll go back to my coffee.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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Sweet, just what we need - spewing vitriol instead of climbing in the Tiroll.
Why stomp at the Doninisaurus? He is not always right but he is never wrong!
what we need is to get hold of a bit a'crystal, from the best source of the Bay Area, and dose nanook so all he sees is rainbows and sparks and the voices of the dead in the breeze.
From way up high - when really high - machines come alive and talk back,
He has already broken from reality and needs a straight jacket
let's see if an old chemist still uses Visine bottles to allow for dosing in the eye?
Hank Caylor might help, if there is any such contraband. in the evidence lock-up room.f
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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The Valley is a 7 by 1 mile ditch and is the geologic equivalent of a small town.
No little pink houses, but the Yosemite Valley PTA is easy to find
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 18, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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Now
Not being cheeky if when in the 80s I had tried the shjt that y'all are letting this guy do.
I'd would have been beaten and drugged and hung from a wall alone.
We all are the wall cops! the guys hangin' just to stop this kind of vandalism !
so that the man steps in to protect the peace not police the walls.
At times in places I'm sure some of the replacement has been warranted.
The way this has played out . . . .. .. .War is coming
rented climbers with rented drills will be coming outa' the gyms.
"I need to feed my family" - could be a valid excuse. Here is my business card :
Have drill will retro bolt for cash,
Any thing you want to clip up for your assbook page
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 18, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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Thanks for the sage advice, donini. Here's some advice for you: If you don't like a conversation, STFU and stay out of it.
damn dude drugs withdrawals suck don't they..
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 08:35am PT
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what we need is to get hold of a bit a'crystal, from the best source of the Bay Area, and dose nanook
Kesey tried that once, to gain control of a bull. It wasn't such a good idea.
Besides, that stuff eventually wears off. Who is going to dose Nanook, full time, all the time?
The best thing would be for Nanook to recognize that he has no right to be the unilateral arbiter of a new system of "Modern Climbing Ethics" that allows anyone to do whatever they want to existing climbing routes. The best thing would be for Nanook to control himself, and not require others to restrain and confine him to a Federal Prison.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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confine him to a Federal Prison.
Are you insane?
He hasn't done anything to merit such.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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He's used a power drill in the National Park wilderness, and limbed trees at the base of El Capitan. Maybe prison isn't appropriate for those violations of the CFR.
Some guy lit Astroman on fire a few years ago, and he went to prison, didn't he? Tom Randall had to stand tall before the Man because he fell during a speed ascent of Eagle's Way. Wasn't he facing jail time, too?
Maybe being banned from the Park would be better, if Nanook can't control himself. Chongo got banned just for hanging out. Some others have been banned for, what, BASE jumping?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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ugh the Valley sucks.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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Thanks susu, for the comment.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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I just did a really hard Layton Kor route on the East Face of the Washington Column. I'm bitchen as hell. I'm as cool as Layton Kor. Wait! I'm better than Layton Kor, because I post my Selfies on Facebook. I rule! I'm as bitchen as Kylie Jenner. Whoa, brah, check me out, and then Friend me, and then Like my update!
Haha! I do hope you have kids or nieces and nephews.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 18, 2015 - 10:10am PT
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He's used a power drill in the National Park wilderness
Ever wonder what those marks on the rocks were as you hiked the trails in yos?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 18, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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here is the BLM rules, I doubt the rules in a NP are less severe.
43 CFR §6302.20 What is prohibited in wilderness?
Except as specifically provided in the Wilderness Act, the individual statutes designating the particular BLM wilderness area, or the regulations of this part, and subject to valid existing rights, in BLM wilderness areas you must not:
(d) Use motorized equipment; or motor vehicles, motorboats, or other forms of mechanical transport;
43 CFR §6302.30 What penalties apply if I commit one or more of the prohibited acts?
(a) If you commit a prohibited act listed in § 6302.20 in a BLM wilderness area, you are subject to criminal prosecution on each offense. If convicted, you may be fined not more than $100,000 under 18 U.S.C. 3571. In addition, you may be imprisoned for not more than 12 months, as provided for by 43 U.S.C. 1733(a).
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
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The rite of the first ascent has been discussed widely and for years. It seems to be the only "universal" that has spanned the generations. For me, I could care less how a climb is put up but I care a lot about respecting how a climb was done. This preserves all manner and the history of climbing moving forward.
Having said this, if the right of first ascent is the standard, then I believe it is the responsibility of the first asceniosist/s to take care of their product. Most of the creators are still alive. When I rebolt routes I consider it my duty to consult the FA party to ensure the preservation of their vision as accurately as possible.
But I also feel like FA parties can be lazy in protecting their creations, crying out for others to take care of the work they should be doing for themselves. Letting others discuss what should happen to their work has obvious consequences.
There are only a handful dedicated to the preservation because it's so hard to navigate all the different intricacies and personalities and they do so almost always without physical help from the first ascentionists.
So far, I see most FA parties allowing others to dictate what happens to their work. They are happy to allow others to do the heavy lifting to preserve their legacy (i.e. rebolting, policing, etc.) but do little themselves to take care of their own. If the right of the first ascent is the one constant we have, then the FA party (unless dead) should bare a major part of the responsibility of their work, otherwise they get what others give them. A creation changed or altered by others. Talk is just that. Simple enough for a concerned FA party to confront the vandals. And if they don't then why should we care?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 18, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
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Donni gives no f*#ks about the valley.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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Erik Sloan,
I've never met you. I've been reading this thread though since it was bumped these last few weeks.
One thing that strikes me about your posts is that, after all this discussion I have yet to see you differentiate between replacing bolts and adding them to an already existing climb. Maybe I missed something?
That difference seems to be the core of this discussion.
Do you understand the difference? (Provide a plain answer please).
Sincerely,
Brad Young
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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Erik,
Thanks for an honest answer.
OK, you add bolts to other people's routes. In the interest of honest communications, count me then in the group of people who feel very strongly that that is hideous and inexcusable behavior (trying to avoid name-calling here).
I'm not going to try to talk you out of this behavior, since anything I say wouldn't affect you (apparently you're going to do whatever you want and no amount of talk will dissuade you).
I have another question though, about replacing bolts (not adding, replacing): When you don't re-use an old bolt's already-existing hole, do you pull the old bolt out and then patch and camouflage the old hole?
I've gotten mixed messages on this thread about how you deal with the old holes.
(And I'll go first with my thought on this subject this time - I always pull the old bolt and very carefully patch and camo the old hole - anything else is disrespectful of the rock and of all climbers that come afterward).
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 18, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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I don't remember the belays on Salathe being death defying in 84.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
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Earlier in the thread I wrote that I didn't understand why Mark Jenkins was trying to claim that he might not have drilled bolts at the belays on Sea Of Dreams, because literally every party since has been happy that he did.
I very, very rarely call someone an IDIOT on these forums, but I must make an exception in your case! As the line from Cool Runnings says, "Whatever is wrong with you is no little thing!"
There IS no "Mark Jenkins" you are referring to. You HAVE been consistently accusing ME, Richard Jensen, of adding bolts to the Sea. Yet, I have consistently and CLEARLY stated that it is thoroughly understood and unquestioned that MARK SMITH and I did not add even one hole to the Sea when we did the FIFTH ascent of it.
So, whatever it is that you are trying to derive about that ascent in your muddy, sotted mind, it is based upon FALSE information, which has consistently been discussed as FALSE. So, if you want to refer to the Sea as some example of something, refer to all of the SUBSEQUENT parties that have added tons of bolts and trenched heads all over that amazing route....
NONE of which are legit, and NONE of which should be used by YOU as ANY example of "how to do it."
The Sea HAS been drilled down to a MUCH lower level by teams that had NO business being up there. And that is NOT what we want to see happen to routes. YOU do that crap intentionally and call it GOOD! It is NOT GOOD. It is pure crap.
WAKE up and try to claw your way up out of whatever deep mental hole you live in, and TRY to grasp some shreds of factual reality in your (even otherwise) lame argumentation!
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
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So from what I can tell from Donny's guide and Erik's guide here's Sloans vision for the future...
Ten Day After: Bolt count in Reid guide is 44 - bolt count in Sloan guide is 62!
The Great Slab Route: Bolt count in Reid guide is 1 - bolt count in Sloan guide is 48!
Lurking Fear: Bolt count in Reid guide is 44 - bolt count in Sloan guide is 92 + 16 more for free climbing variations!
Seems like more than a handful
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Erik Sloan
Big Wall climber
Yosemitebigwall.com
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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Sorry about that Richard Jenkins, I fixed your name. I think you've lost it, though, as you told me personally that you added bolts to the belays on Sea of Dreams. I told you I recognized the homemade aluminum hangers you used, from the ones I saw on Wings of Steel when I rapped down the Great Slab while replacing the bolts on Never Never Land. Steve Schneider and Paul Gagner are up on Sea of Dreams right now. I assure you they are clipping your anchor bolts happily.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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Grossman and Woot Boy.
Now those are some strange bedfellows!!!!!!!!!111111111666
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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Erik,
I'm waiting for an answer still regarding how you treat old bolt holes. I'm trying to sort fact from fiction here, and I appreciate the fact that you're (mostly) honest).
Here's my question (and comment) repeated:
"When you don't re-use an old bolt's already-existing hole, do you pull the old bolt out and then patch and camouflage the old hole?
I've gotten mixed messages on this thread about how you deal with the old holes.
(And I'll go first with my thought on this subject this time - I always pull the old bolt and very carefully patch and camo the old hole - anything else is disrespectful of the rock and of all climbers that come afterward)."
Keep the response plain and on point please.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
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ES-
Any thoughts or feelings on cutting wood in a National Park?
Community service or selfish irresponsible
stewardship?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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Sorry about that Richard Jenkins, I fixed your name.
You have ZERO credibility to claim that you remember ANYTHING I supposedly told you.
1) You can't even "remember my name" when all you'd have to do is copy/paste it from a few posts higher.
2) I NEVER told you any such thing, and you'll find no aluminum hangers from us on the Sea for one simple reason: We added no bolts or ANY other drilled placements to the Sea. And I'll repeat, we were watched on that ascent more tightly than probably any other team. Talk to Barbella and Brand who were side-by-side with us all the way up.
I won't say it again: Whatever sickness is going on in your slender grasp on some distant version of reality, you need to "reboot" your thinking about our ascent of the Sea.
And I'll repeat from much earlier, even if we HAD drilled up the Sea, which, I repeat, we didn't, that would be NO justification for YOUR endless activities! Retro-drilling DUMBS routes DOWN. You are NOT improving anything!
I think you've lost it, though, as you told me personally that you added bolts to the belays on Sea of Dreams.
Complete fabrication. You can't even remember my name from a few posts above, even when in front of all witness here, I TOLD you my name. You have ZERO credibility to claim I told you anything about the Sea.
Goofball.
I told you I recognized the homemade aluminum hangers you used, from the ones I saw on Wings of Steel when I rapped down the Great Slab while replacing the bolts on Never Never Land.
There are SO many things wrong with that claim that I scarcely know where to start:
1) The Great Slab, particularly where WoS goes, is nowhere near NNL. So, WHY would you be rapping WoS to replace bolts on NNL?
2) We used a FEW aluminum hangers on WoS, but only on 3/8" bolts. We didn't even take any 3/8" bolts on the Sea, and we placed none. We weren't using Aluminum hangers even on our 3/8" bolts by that time, as there were some VERY good manufactured hangers for 3/8" bolts by then.
3) You told us no such thing, because if you HAD, we would have set you straight at that time, due to the FACT (oft-repeated and widely-known), that.... Well, I repeat myself because you cannot seem to READ with any comprehension: We did not place new bolts on the Sea.
Steve Schneider and Paul Gagner are up on Sea of Dreams right now. I assure you they are clipping your anchor bolts happily.
I assure YOU that you are an idiot, and I'll tell you that to your face... in fact IN your face if you like.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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Ten Days After was a bullshit easy route with one uncharacteristically difficult section on otherwise good rock. Sounds like a problem fixed to me. If it were 10 pitches of A4 madness - Erik probably would have been one of the last people around to add bolts to it.
Otherwise, it's a beginner A1/A2 route with one section of runout free climbing. Yeah, maybe if Erik were a better free climber it wouldn't have happened. However, should a climber with his experience really be rapping off this with tail between legs, or was the climb actually just bullsh#t? I'm siding with the latter.
If you have a strong opposing opinion on the matter, I have to agree - STFU with your dull-ass boring posts from the 80's and go fix it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
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Yes Jim, indeed I was born yesterday and am incapable of fully understanding the ONE, SOLE, ONLY and infinitely repeated contribution to the climbing community you f'tards are capable of making - posting your boring dull-ass sh!t from the 80's to Supertopo with NO END. So sorry.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
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posting your boring dull-ass sh!t from the 80's to Supertopo with NO END.
Let me add to the sh|t from the 80's, so that it NEVER goes away! NO END indeed!
Dumbing down routes by drilling, so that they are all sport routes, is "dull-ass sh!t" to the extreme!
And THIS tradition goes ALL the way back and ALL the way forward to this present day... NOT "80's sh!t" at all. ES is virtually alone in his relentless pursuit of the systematic drilling-down of routes. This is NO 80's "ethic."
This is the REAL DEAL throughout the history of climbing to the present, with rare (except for ES) exception.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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So... to clarify for us noobs...a "handful" equates to around 43 bolts per route??
This Sloan-guy must have HUGE hands.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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Erik Sloan, I have spent a lot of time in the Valley, and done a lot of routes that have no bolts, and certainly routes without convenience bolts... and while I didn't climb today, I was certainly around last weekend, though in a place you wouldn't know about...
You could call me a weekender if you feel that is an important distinction...
From your response to me, your "modern climber ethic" seems to be to make the routes friendly to all climbers. This is the gist of your response, the climbers at Swan Slab, today thought it would be convenient to have a beefy bolted anchor on top. That desire is sufficient, for you, to put those bolts there. (I assume you didn't use a power drill... so that would be "legal.")
The original route doesn't have that anchor. Generations of climbers didn't apparently need that anchor. But "modern climbers" desire it.
"Modern climbers" doing speed ascents of walls would certainly find rebolting very convenient. You expressed your vision of enough belay anchors to support multiple parties doing the big wall routes (I think you specified The Nose), both the aid climbers and the speed climbers. This would, indeed, be convenient. I can imagine that there is some desire to make this possible by some set of "modern climbers."
It is a unique vision...
Bringing the routes down to the lowest common climber's ability might seem like an valid ethic to you, but as an old codger I don't think it is the right thing to do.
As far as going up and repeating routes that have been, "re-engineered," I'm afraid that I'll probably have a hammer and a tuning fork along on some of those very old, historic routes and probably return them to the way they were... it might inconvenience some "modern climbers" but if they can't climb at the level of the FA teams on those routes, and the generations of climbers that came after them, they can work harder to achieve the level of mastery of those teams.
Not every route is for every climber... you surely know that.
Not every route should be re-made for every climber.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 18, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
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^^Hell yeah, Ed. Well put, and much more succinct than I would have said.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2015 - 10:56pm PT
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Added a couple anchor bolts to belays on Lurking Fear on El Cap, so now the easiest route on El Cap has all bolted belays - same as the rest of the routes.
How many bolts are there at each belay now? 10? I did the route in 99 and I definitely didn't miss bolts on the belays.
I replaced the chiseled fixed heads on pitch 11 of Lurking Fear with bolts in 2007. Those bolts have been super popular.
So one of the on the toes parts of lurking fear is now a bolt ladder? How do you know that the bolts have been super popular (whatever that even means).
The people that climb the route now have most of the times don't climbed it before and they also clip whatever they found.
So what more have you done to lurking fear?
Is the dowel traverse pitch now a bolt ladder?
Are there any new bolts on the wide crack above?
What about the hook moves at the end of pitch 12?
Have you done anything to the mantle move that you nailed on one of your ascents?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 18, 2015 - 11:22pm PT
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Crikey - this is just so fundamentally f*#ked up it's unbelievable.
That someone thinks they are doing 'community service' by dumbing down big walls is beyond unconscionable. This is as lamentable and regrettable a future as any which can be imagined.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
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This guys been doing this for ten years and nobody's done anything to stop him. Ed H's post so far has been the only post worth reading because he saying he'll do something. Whether or not he will remains to be seen. Otherwise a bunch of hot online air. Will be interestesting to see where it's at in another ten years. The climbing "community" is so weak when it comes to policing itself. Poor El Cap. You think Sloan's the only one to have retro'd up there? How many routes are original? No wonder the responsible bolters who do the bulk of responsible replacement won't touch the place. Too much of a mess to untangle.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 19, 2015 - 07:09am PT
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Hartounaging;
I'm afraid that I'll probably have a hammer and a tuning fork along on some of those very old, historic routes and probably return them to the way they were...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 08:52am PT
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ONE, SOLE, ONLY and infinitely repeated contribution to the climbing community you f'tards are capable of making
You don't know what you're talking about.
I can't speak for others, but I have replaced all the belay bolts on two El Cap routes, Bermuda Dunes and Cosmos. Both times, permission was granted from the FA climbers. Exactly one extra hole was added mid-pitch on each climb - broken rivet, and rockfall/missing feature. A few other added holes, at the belays, were needed when the old bolts broke, instead of pulling out. The new holes were placed so the new hangers hid the old broken stubs. The in-pitch bolts and rivets were either left as is, or replaced with similar 1/4" gear. No extra holes were added mid-pitch. No belay bolts were added mid-pitch. No belay bolt ladders were used to bypass piton cracks, or copperhead seams. No pussy bolt was placed to pussy-down the hook move I had to lower off and pendulum thirty feet left off of. And, all of the holes were redrilled from 1/4" to 3/8" by hand, without a power drill.
Both of those repair jobs were done this century, not in the 80's
So, A) we older f*#ktards actually do go up and replace old rotten bolts, and B) we do it without a power drill, and C) we don't retrobolt the route to dumb it down, to make it easier, to make it safer, or to make it possible for us to climb a hard route that we have no business being on in the first place.
And, for you to talk sh#t about Ed Hartouni, for example, is just asinine.
As Werner Braun noted above, "The Pussy Class is trying to imitate the Warrior Class . . . . They are clueless."
If it were 10 pitches of A4 madness - Erik probably would have been one of the last people around to add bolts to it.
You're not paying attention.
Erik Sloan is exactly the person who is going to go up and drill all over an existing A4 route. This is what he's been doing for 17 years, and what this entire thread is about. It doesn't matter that you think he can't climb A4 - he drills past the hard sections of the routes he climbs.
And now he's saying he got his eye on the Sea of Dreams and Zenyatta Mondatta.
I've added a few handfuls of bolts to climbs over the years.
He doesn't have huge hands - he has a huge delusional gap from what 6+ billion people would call "reality".
Adding 47 bolts to the Great Slab Route is about ten handfuls, right there, on ONE route. He added another ten or twelve handfuls on Lurking Fear.
Replaced over 100 bolts on Tissack on Half Dome.
Oh well, Robbins was just some old coot from way back in the day. I'm sure that if he were around now, he'd be sad you Nanooked his masterpiece, and added bolts to his route.
Truly sad, Erik.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 19, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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Wow, the audacity of Woot is insane.
I've been climbing since I was twelve, I'm thirty-six now. My climbing has been all free (aside from pulling on gear) and while I learned how to climb on sport routes in NH, I am mostly a gear(trad? I hate that word) climber now. Ok, that's my bio, and I have aspirations to climb walls. I read voraciously about climbing when I got into the sport and I still do.
So, WTF? I want to climb in the valley sometime on routes with history that have sketch gear, that's part of it!
Why is the community letting this guy dumb down routes for the 'masses'? This is total weak sauce and is a part of the slow slide of standards of important, challenging routes.
Changing the original nature of a route is a disrespect to climbers who have balls and want to test themselves. Additionally, I'm short and look forward to the time when I have to figure out how to place the piece or clip the pin that's just out of my reach.
Stop f*#king with other people's routes man! You said that Tom Frost gave you his blessing on a route of his, but have you checked with ALL other FA'ists on 'maintenance' on their routes?
Belay bolts are one thing, but reducing the skill level needed to work out tricky situations isn't a task that you've been appointed with. You are not the decider.
Stop deciding what the route I may climb feels like, it's not your place to do so.
In the end, I don't think you'll give one single f*#k about what I've written, and that's what's wrong with your narcissistic personality trait.
Hugs and kisses,
Brandon Mayo
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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Why is the community letting this guy dumb down routes for the 'masses'?
We're not letting him do it. The National Park belongs to all people, and sometimes sociopaths break free from their asylum confinement, and come to Yosemite and go even crazier. We, the other climbers, do not have the right, or the authority to physically stop Mr. Sloan from using the National Park as he sees fit. If he breaks the law (i.e., power drilling) that could be brought to the attention of the authorities, who might sympathetically ban him from all National Parks for life.
Really, the issue is that Mr. Sloan should be able to control his psychotic urges to drill the hell out of every route he climbs. He should be able to police his own actions, especially after so many people have indicated to him that what he's doing is wrong. The climbing community has a long tradition of having respect for other climbers' routes. Sloan's Nanooking of existing routes is a rather new phenomenon, and seems to be largely restricted to just him, for now.
The reason it's new phenomenon is that in the old days, if he'd Nanooked just one route, the locals would have punched him out, and thrown his gear off the El Capitan bridge and into the river. If he'd Nanooked a second route, he would've gotten punched out and then thrown into the river himself.
What do you suggest the community "do" to curtail the damage?
We might try getting together a petition, wherein we demonstrate, in writing, that the vast majority of climbers don't approve of what Erik is doing to existing routes, and we want him to stop.
Erik claims that "currently active climbers", and those "in the Valley right now" are all really stoked to get onto routes that have been dumbed down.
So, even a petition might not work. Erik might rationalize that most or all of the signatories are old fogey has-beenians who don't climb anymore. He might then invoke the WOOT WOOT club, a bunch of pansy-assed narcissists who want to say:
Yeah. I did Jolly Roger. I don't know why people make such a big deal about that route. The free climbing has a big bolt every five or ten feet. The route goes totally clean. It's just a clip-up. There were no hook, copperhead or piton moves at all. The FA team must have been really weak, to call it A5. Guys back then must have not had any sack at all.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 19, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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I would think his admissions would be enough for banning from the park. Like others have said, if they kicked Chongo out...
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Club
climber
Birmingham
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Oct 19, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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Just take him out-Woot! Woot!
That's what I do. Over 2000 now, 17 years and still going.
Feel the stoke!
Get after it. Woot!
MC
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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He solos routes, and thus minimizes witnesses. He also retrobolts on rappel, according to what he has said in this forum.
He'll sometimes climb with unsuspecting noobs. One of them posted above, and claimed that Erik was putting in 3/8" belay bolts on a Tangerine Trip rivet ladder, but not using a power drill that time.
A few people who have climbed with him and seen his tactics have posted here to declaim any further association with him.
I would think his admissions would be enough for banning from the park. Like others have said, if they kicked Chongo out...
There was a whole due-process thing with Chongo. It was demonstrated that he was living the National Park illegally. It took many years of people trying to get rid of him.
If people can video tape Nanook in action, that evidence could be used to convince a Federal judge to ban him. For sure, if just the threat of being filmed caused him to not use a power drill, that would be a 90% improvement.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 19, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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Good luck. The guy is a complete reverse-Ken Nichols from the sound of it.
Big problem in climbing when someone decides to do whatever they want and everybody else can go to hell. The only way to deal with it is retaliation and retribution for the offending acts. Chop the bolts, chop his routes, pull the Alcove rope. He'll get the message eventually.
I would also add I'm really sick and tired of guys like this using the adoration of gutless nOObs slobbering over how he overprotected something as some kind of confirmation that he's doing the right thing.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 19, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
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Keep your day job, Crusty Cur
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 19, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
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Power drills make a lot of noise, the Valley is small and Rangers abound.....how does anyone get away with using one? Hell, I got lectured for leaving a power bar on the back seat of my car.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 19, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
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I worked the valley trails for a few years with the NPS. We used roto hammers all the time and generators to power them. The valley has a way of hiding noise. To clarify some misconceptions the Park service in Yosemite does not follow the wilderness act in the same manner as other parks. Power tools are used in the wilderness.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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Mike,
I respect your opinion because it sounds like you are one of those doing the hard work and you are right that not mentioning solutions is so much hot air although I would still argue that Sloan is still out there doing what he's doing largely unimpeded and has been for some time. The reason I'm interested is because I too am involved in rebolting but have been reluctant to help on El Cap because it is a tough neighborhood and I've spoken to those who work harder than I do and they feel the same. I think you and I may be brothers in arms and the fact remains, as you say, that the few doing the heavy lifting have a hard time keeping up with power drill desicration.
So solutions....A friend in Jtree just told me about an effort between the NPS and volunteers to allow power drills for bolt replacement there. I will get more info on this (maybe someone here knows more). Maybe this is a pilot project but I'm wondering if NPS in Yosemite has been approached about allowing power drills for replacement work. Can you imagine one on the hands of Roger Brown? I'd be up there helping him in a heart beat and that's not talk. Set him loose on El Cap and it would get done.
But people really need to rally and meet with Sloan in person and set him straight if possible. Call a meeting here online. He's communicating.
El Cap has a lot of replacement but it's a tricky thing due to style and intracacies not present in other simpler forms. So my approach would be to ask to meet with Sloan directly here and then find out about what's happening in JTree. If I had a power drill and direction from those like you Mike that know, I'd be right beside you.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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How much of his own personal money has Erik spent on his bolting jobs?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 19, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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Erik I appreciate the work you've done and the money you've spent to replace the bolts than need replacing.
But you should really examine your ethics because you are NOT getting it. This goes to the heart of climbing and WHY we climb. One of the big reasons why we climb is because it's challenging. You have no right to change the challenge of a climb someone else put up.
Yes I advocate changing/adding bolt locations if the original locations are a)either too far apart for shorter folks b) are not in the best spot(many old anchors were drilled very close together, with two bolts within 10" of each other).
Changing bolts too far apart for shorter folks is B.S. Let me guess you are short? Get a stick clip. Don't change the difficulty of a pitch, period.
It seems since you have some flexibility in your ethics and it leads to other times you justify adding a bolt where you shouldn't like the 3rd pitch of The Nose. That pod was too hard to free climb or it was tricky aid so just put a bolt in, right? Wrong. You are removing that challenge that nature provided for the thousands of people that climb the route after you.
I've added a few handfuls of bolts to climbs over the years. These could easily be removed.
No they can't because no one knows all the bolts you added. Like on the 3rd pitch of The Nose. People will just clip that bolt, not knowing that a unique challenge that spot previously presented is gone and now instead of the crux and most memorable part of that pitch it's a forgettable A0 bolt clip.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 02:48pm PT
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Its the fine line between maintaining fixed gear and anchors and the animosity that comes with any change. The guy doing the work feels he has some artistic license for the effort, while the armchair mountaineers lodge complaints like salvos across the bow. I've seen it a thousand times..
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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the Fet to Eric -- "Let me guess you are short?"
You definitely are guessing ......
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 19, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
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the line between maintaining fixed gear and adding gear is not a fine one. Nor is the line between artistic license and vandalism. And the assumption that anyone or everyone posting to this thread is an armchair mountaineer or an old codger is just that, an assumption.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 19, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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I got lectured for leaving a power bar on the back seat of my car.
damn Jim, that is a major faux pas, how do you manage to find partners?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 19, 2015 - 05:14pm PT
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The slander, logical fallacies, lies and misinformation in this thread have rendered it and all opinions expressed within as totally worthless.
You all get an F for effecting a change.
F is for f'tard...
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 19, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
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Again, if the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? What rule will apply?
If this rule isn't valid, then can a route be changed after the first ascent by consensus? If so, how strong a consensus, and who decides? How is a consensus to be formed? Would a consensus to make a route more dangerous require a stronger consensus?
I agree this is a reasonable argument. The FA can act as a final arbiter on any changes as long as the FA is alive and of a reasonable sound mind and the climbing community generally respects this rule. However, as already pointed out, there are some major trade routes where bolts got added (and are still there) anyway. And at some point, the FA won't be alive to act as a final arbiter.
I grant that there is a huge pragmatic difficulty in knowing what a given community wants in a specific case. However, on idealistic grounds, I think that if there is an overwhelming majority, then the minority should respect it. If 95% or more of the climbers at a given area/route would like gear belays changed to bolted belays, then I don't think the tyranny of the 5% should prevent it. And yes, it is still possible to build a natural anchor.
Adding bolts should, of course, always be done judiciously. But I would say that the same argument should be made before chopping them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 19, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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The slander, logical fallacies, lies and misinformation in this thread have rendered it and all opinions expressed within as totally worthless.
That opinion included. Thus, self-referential implosion.
Bwahahaha
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 19, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
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"woot" boy....bwahahahaha!!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 19, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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...self-referential implosion.
Great phrase.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 19, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
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Those that add bolts to routes should have their hand jammies cut off.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 19, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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They can't....there belay glasses only allow them to look up.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 19, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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Locker, would you be okay with a reach around? Burchey wants to know.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 19, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
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You guys have to hi-jack this?
It's a ST interlude.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 19, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
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A little humor wouldn't hurt at all.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Oct 19, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
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Hey mike dot
does your pm function work?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:09am PT
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OK,ok,lets stay on topic
Erik is like ISIL - - - destroying existing masterpieces, so that no one in the future can enjoy them
The FA can act as a final arbiter on any changes as long as the FA is alive and of a reasonable sound mind and the climbing community generally respects this rul
PERFECT "NEW CLIMBING ETHICS" LOGIC: Royal Robbins is almost/maybe/gonnabe senile, thus Erik 'Nanook' Sloan can drill the ever living sh#t out of Tis-Sa-Ack, and drill 100+ holes, at will, and dumb down the original route.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:20am PT
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Yes to that ^^^^^
Well put!
And what the EF?jlp? What's wrong with you Of your 11 pictures and. . . . oh wait
That is respectable : 1655 shares !
You are very righteous here, . . . . actually I take that back I half agree with you
Can WL weigh in please ( Weston, them doggies need to be added here - hear? )
Doc did you mean to add to the humor break?
Until you pointed it out I never saw it!
A Mike Ro dot reference - micro-dot that's funny!
I've clearly had too much. . .sorry carry on. . .
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:24am PT
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Its the fine line between maintaining fixed gear and anchors and the animosity that comes with any change. The guy doing the work feels he has some artistic license for the effort, while the armchair mountaineers lodge complaints like salvos across the bow. I've seen it a thousand times..
If you're replacing anchors and fixed pro there should only be enough flexibility in the process to do the replacements such that the route climbs the same and there should be no 'artistic license' of any kind to change the locations or to retrobolt.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:37am PT
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I'm now inspired by Erik Sloan, to go into the nearest art museum, and spray-paint over every thing I don't like.
Woot woot.
I have just improved bad art. I have now made it better. Lotsa people are stoked. I can't wait to spray paint over more bad art, to make it better.
Woot Woot Woot Woot Woot Woot Woot."
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:53am PT
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He is working on a legacy.
He clearly plans to lionize his accomplishments selling books to the gym generation, reduced to the lowest common denominator . .. filled with Topos and bolt counts. . .
step by step, climb by The numbers -
risk? What was that? . . . it so 80s. . .90s ... 70s,.60s..50s
The experience and adventure, confronting risk and over coming it , is the essence of what it is go climb
Especially in Yosemite
Doing it for short term - hero I am - Doing it For short people? Get the EF out
Lynn hill Ray Olson Sue McDe . . . We do not want or need things brought down ...
We are better climbers gettin' it done with half the strengths and three times the technique !
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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Still waiting for a reply Erik to this question:
"Erik,
I'm waiting for an answer still regarding how you treat old bolt holes. I'm trying to sort fact from fiction here, and I appreciate the fact that you're (mostly) honest).
Here's my question (and comment) repeated:
"When you don't re-use an old bolt's already-existing hole, do you pull the old bolt out and then patch and camouflage the old hole?
I've gotten mixed messages on this thread about how you deal with the old holes.
(And I'll go first with my thought on this subject this time - I always pull the old bolt and very carefully patch and camo the old hole - anything else is disrespectful of the rock and of all climbers that come afterward)."
Keep the response plain and on point please."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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Hmmm Eric....I did the Salathe Wall 44 years ago probably with the original 13 bolts you speak of. The technical hardware then was inferior to what is avalable today yet I don't recall any issues with the climb.
You say that today there are 90 bolts...why?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:36am PT
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No local here but I just spent a month in the Ditch. Observations indicate that Erik has an extremely tenuous grip on reality.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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It's just hard to have one of those about replacing bolts, because not many people know that much about it(what is involved).
Yeah, we're all just a bunch of n00bs here. Do continue yer condescension and dissimulation.
Hoot?
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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Erik, what you write here on Supertopo doesn't make any sense. You give the impression that you don't need anyone else for a conversation.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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So why is ASCA and for example Roger Brown against your practice? Don't they know anything about replacing bolts?
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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To lament that routes are being modernized is silly - change is constant. Climbing should be about the climbing - not the few fixed anchors we need to spend days on the walls.
Well there it is....your opinion, but your opinion is the deciding voice making these changes.
My opinion it that I wish I could climb the salathe with it's 13 bolts, but you are ruining that experience. Pretty sad that the old codgers with nothing more than pins did it with 13 bolts, and us modern climbers can't hang.
The slander, logical fallacies, lies and misinformation in this thread have rendered it and all opinions expressed within as totally worthless. I'm sensing a bromance!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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You say that today there are 90 bolts...why? Because it gets climbed by 2-3 parties a day, often sharing anchors with their haulbags, then another party also with haulbags might bail through the middle of them. You're really out of touch, as this is how things have been on the route for 2+ decades, getting busier every year.
There are still several belays that are dangerous and completely inadequate for the traffic. More bolts are needed and I'm glad people like Erik are out there actually maintaining and making real (even if occasionally flawed) decisions about them rather than the far easier task of spewing on the internet about how your theories and ethics from past decades should apply while you actually sit and do nothing.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 08:52am PT
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Patching a bolt hole is only adding pollutants to the environment. The rock does not care if its drilled. At all. Its a rock. I spent years in the valley drilling, plugs and feathering, smashing, and blowing up the rock.
it never once complained.
the thing that will cause change is complaining to the Park Service- who currently does not care
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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Thanks JLP....I'm glad I got to experience some classic climbs before the masses arrived.
If you need info on Patagonia, Alaska or the Karakorum PM me so you don't seem..."out of touch."
Funny how some climbers used the Valley as a launching pad and not as a lifetime avocation.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:20am PT
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The guy seems to have NPD traits which usually means no discussion possible.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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bingo
...and wrong again cwilmot.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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I thought the whole idea behind The Salathe was a route on El Cap with as few bolts as absolutely possible.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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Get with it Chaz that's old codger thinking
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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...there are still several belays that are dangerous...
Oh my GOD, danger in climbing! So dangerous that how many belay set-ups have failed on the Salathe in 50 years?
I'll violate my own rule of thumb on Supertopo: JLP is an idiot. Please take up bowling JLP, and leave the "dangerous" activities to those with brains.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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bingo
...and wrong again cwilmot.
Do explain.
And any epoxy is not natural and is a pollutant. Filling in a hole would actually be defined as vandalism and polluting by the NPS
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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There are still several belays that are dangerous and completely inadequate for the traffic.
Maybe instead of sitting around and doing nothing, you and Erik should team up and bravely embark on a suicide mission up the Salathe and spray some more bolts in to make it safe for everyone climbing, hauling, and bailing all over each other.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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You're misinformed
Perhaps you mean ex-NPS trail crew doesn't care?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 10:10am PT
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:37am PT
bingo
...and wrong again cwilmot.
Do explain.
And any epoxy is not natural and is a pollutant. Filling in a hole would actually be defined as vandalism and polluting by the NPS
lol. You're really going to make that argument? Please go on.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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Bolting every belay is undoubtedly a dumbing down and unnecessary, but what are other ways of dealing with the increased traffic especially at belays where gear is limited?
I know it's a novel thought, but how about teams exercising a bit of self-discipline, so that they don't "pile up" at the belays in the first place. Do you REALLY need to get onto your chosen route less than a day behind the team ahead of you? Do you REALLY need to bail THIS MINUTE without consideration for the teams you'll have to pass on the way down?
Endless self-disciplinary questions like the above could/should be asked by EACH team on a "trade route."
Look, the destruction of routes SHOULD lead participants to ask: "Am I really at a theme park? Do I need to 'Magic Mountain' this route? Should I really be looking for an escalator rather than the next placement/pitch?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 10:47am PT
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^^^^ LOL
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Oct 20, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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How many natural belays remain on El Cap? I am guessing very few. The pile ups are unavoidoable no matter what the Internet says should happen- I'm also guessing many of our forum hard men would be a little uncomfortable hanging from mank while sharing a belay with a bailing cluster.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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Bolting every belay is undoubtedly a dumbing down and unnecessary, but what are other ways of dealing with the increased traffic especially at belays where gear is limited?
Good question. My answer would be that climbers would use their decision making skills to conclude whether it is a good idea(or not) to add traffic to the route at that time. We've all looked up at a route and had to make that decision. More simply, if we go out to the local sport crag and someone is climbing the intended route, we don't just get on it and start climbing it at the same time, and most of don't think the answer to put two lines of bolts and anchors on that same sport climb?
Maybe if the route wasn't dumbed down, there would be less people on it? Sounds like a more enjoyable experience to me.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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I talked with a good friend last night with knowledge of this.
Eric, You need to stop! It's one thing to knowingly destroy someone's vision for personal profit, but the way in which you are doing it is so much worse. And you've erased countless hours of others hard work to restore and maintain routes which really is what's bad. This has an extremely demoralizing affect on those who would want to get on El Cap and those who ARE INVOLVED in maintaining the heritage, safety and history of all routes, not just aid because who wants to invest hundreds of hours of hard work by hand only to have you wipe it out overnight?
You have also ripped off others by using others products to push your product line. A lot of hard work is going into trying to accurately map
El Cap but that can't be done when you've changed/and continue to change the landscape considerably.
It's a shame that someone with your energy can't do the right thing up there. You could give so much! Instead, and ironically, with all the energy you've used, you've only taken.
It's always amazed me that tyrants are allowed to go on so long. Many make it to a ripe old age without having been taken to task. Hopefully you are one who will be shut down before it's to late.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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My answer would be that climbers would use their decision making skills
Yeah, that's what I said. Then I was told that it's ridiculous to expect this.
So, the Valley is lost, apparently. Escalator-mentality in full swing (pun fully intended)!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:33am PT
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Sadly, Raymond, it's apparent that what "should" be done and what IS going to be done have come wildly apart!
ES wears a Teflon-coated shield of insanity, such that all attempts to REASON with him on this thread bounce right off. He is impervious to consensus and reasoned arguments. He is like a medical doctor but without even the training: Often wrong; never uncertain!
So, this thread has become an exercise in futility, it appears.
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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This thread, lmao.
Pussy class or warrior class? Or Internet warrior class?
Seems to be the majority here.
Arf, arf, arf, if I could only get off of supertopo I'd actually go do something about it .
Much more entertaining than politics and school shootings though so please carry on.
I'm still waiting for the part where the Internet fixes this whole situation and Erik tells you all how sorry he is and how right you all are for witch hunting him on supertopo every month or so, then he goes about his usual awesome day hanging out and climbing in Yosemite, except now he is enamoured by hope for finally realizing what an idiot he is- all because a bunch of guys on the Internet who may or may not have climbed the same rocks he did in a different style and have a different view but have never bothered to contact him personally or talk to his face think so. Yahhhhhhh!!!!!
Just wait it's coming in the next few hundred posts for sure!
Woot, woot!!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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When I got into climbing in the 90s we were having the same discussions. Just in person. People have to be educated about why its bad to dumb down routes, because there are benefits to adding bolts like routes accepting more traffic and more climbers. However I haven't really seen much change in the overall view in the last 25 years, many new climbers don't see the benefit of not adding bolts until its explained to them. Old codgers want NO bolts added anytime. And there's a spectrum in the middle.
Personally I think it's sad that the Salathe has so many bolts now because 13 bolts was a testament to how few bolts it took them to climb el cap. But obviously that ship has sailed.
But for the nose I think all belays should be bolted and easy to rap from since that route sees so much traffic and bails. And warren wouldn't care.
Erik I appreciate that you are being forthright and communicative on this thread. I might not agree with everything you are doing, but I have a lot more respect for you since you are explaining your thoughts and actions and not sidestepping in a somewhat hostile environment. Keep in mind though that people willing to go up and talk to you in the valley are probably the people in agreement with you. People pissed at you likely won't talk to you, so you are probably getting a skewed view of the average views on you work.
As mentioned I have very little time to spend in the valley, but hopefully I'll be able to climb the bottom of the nose and remove that bolt at some point, because I'm one of the people that doesn't think it's belongs.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:49am PT
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go fill in the bolt holes at swan slab and let a ranger see your handiwork....
See how that works out for you
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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go fill in the bolt holes at swan slab and let a ranger see your handiwork....
Certain areas (and routes) are lost. Might as well just go straight to putting up the escalators on those "trade" routes. "Climbing" indeed!
I think that what the majority of us are trying to accomplish here, since ES "is in attendance" and is (supposedly) "listening," is to get him to CEASE the additional damage and loss.
For many routes, their bells cannot be unrung. But can we POSSIBLY halt or even reduce the ringing of new bells (all of which are death knells)?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 20, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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locker: didn't think you had any interest in walls and climbing in the valley. Slow day in the other threads? ;)
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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Go Team Tard!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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The TR should be entertaining, in a "Brokeback Bivy" sorta way.
Enjoy your sesh....
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
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They will have to grapple for it, or punch it out. Not sure how that works.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 01:46pm PT
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I would love to see a GIF of L0cker
LoF*#kingLing
TeamTard
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
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Thanks guys and gals for the entertainment. Lol and don't retrobolt. Only the Joker would do both and he was beyond insane.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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You Guys are rendering this thread woot.
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Erik Sloan
Big Wall climber
Yosemitebigwall.com
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Oct 20, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
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Hey Brad Young(Mtn Young) et all - I always try to remove the old bolts when I am replacing bolts.
This part said jokingly -
Of course you would have known that if you even talked to anyone who has climbed, or heaven forbid you had climbed, any of the popular bigwall routes here(this thread is about a bigwall climb on Washington Column, after all), as I've replaced bolts on nearly all of them. Not being sassy, just pointing out something curious on this thread - folks seem quick to want to be upset about something that is easily verifiable: I climbed Tangerine Trip/Virginia eight times before I got all the bolts replaced. You don't hear about folks going up there and complaining about a bunch of trashy bolts left around. Some friends just got off a couple days ago and they were super psyched.
I teach people how to hand drill a couple times a month. I have 3-4 hand drill setups that I lend out to folks around here, and give them free hardware.
I hope that folks take away from this that Ten Days After is a cool climb and they should go climb it. The Prow, right next door, which I replaced most of the bolts on(there are still a few old ones, if you're interested in helping out ;) is more classic but after you do the Prow, TDA is an awesome adventure.
Funny responses about the Salathe bolts. I assure you that everyone who climbs the Salathe today is clipping those anchors happily. Of course, just like free soloing, if you want to build natural belays you can do that too. You don't hear Alex Honnold bagging on Half Dome saying - 'what bolts, why do you guys need those things?', lol.
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klaus
climber
Slauson & Crenshaw
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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Erik Sloan = Total D#@&%ebag Assshole, Power Bolting Retrodrller with NO REGARD for anyone's opinions for what happens on the routes he ruins. he drills bolts willy nilly at his own discretion which is fundamentally flawed
Carry on Stoopid Topo. i've told you all for years they guy needs to be shut down.
Eric Kohl
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
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Sounds like he is recruiting minions to do his bidding as well. I wanted to give benefit of doubt at first in a situation I am far removed from but each "reply" post seems to slip further into a narcissistic haze.
I would like to hear from these friends and other rock stars that support "the cause".
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
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Eric, Mtnyoung has climbed many a Yosemite bigwall. Please cease from adding any bolts to any pitches or belays.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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Yo Erik,
I'm always stoked to clip a nice safe bolt at a belay and I'm grateful for all the hard work you've done over the years for the climbing community at large. Keep up the good work, keep yer head screwed on straight and don't lose a wink of sleep over all the haters out there.
See you around,
Scott
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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I can't tell if you're sincere and have some screws loose, or just don't give a crap what other climbers think and are trolling like a boss.
He's had more than a few loose screws for at least a decade. Anyone who goes 17 years without learning how to climb, but still goes up and retrobolts numerous routes and big walls must be insane. When he attempts to rationalize his aberrant behavior, as by invoking phantom grateful climbers, his hallucinatory delusions are made public.
He refuses, or can't acknowledge that rock climbs are a shared resource, and should not be violated by a clueless sociopath. Some of the damage he has done in the Valley has occurred stealthily, as in the winter, which further indicates he is a cunning sociopath, and not simply a demented imbecile.
Yo Erik,
I'm always stoked to clip a nice safe bolt at a belay and I'm grateful for all the hard work you've done over the years for the climbing community at large. Keep up the good work, keep yer head screwed on straight and don't lose a wink of sleep over all the haters out there.
I can't believe how tone-deaf some people are.
Nobody here is suggesting that replacing belay bolts is wrong. Everybody posting here appreciates Erik's work in that respect.
The "haters" are offended by his additional practice of adding new bolts, mid-pitch, to make climbs easier and/or safer. He modifies and changes entire routes. He pretends that his "good deeds" give him a blanket pass to do whatever he wants to the rest of the route.
This isn't like confusing "apples and oranges". It's more like confusing "apples and horseshit".
Rebolting belays is NOT the same thing as retrobolting whole pitches.
Micronut, did you have to exert yourself and stretch to reach Layton Kor's bolts on the famous roof pitch on the Column? Or has Erik commoditized that pitch into a boring clip-up, now known as the Nanook Roof?
If that pitch was not Nanooked when you were up there, do you agree with Erik that it would be OK for him to retrobolt it, to add more bolts with a closer spacing, to make the pitch easier? Do you wish that Erik had more fully Nanooked the entire Washington Column, so that you could have successfully made it to the top?
I just want to hear, directly from you, and any other climbers who agree with Erik Sloan that it's acceptable and good practice to retrobolt existing routes on a whim, for any reason, including making those routes easier to climb. The overwhelming majority of posters here, and climbers I know don't agree with Erik. I have been climbing since 1975, and have never met another climber who thought it was OK to wantonly and randomly retrobolt existing routes.
Erik claims to have many supporters who are grateful for his retrobolting. Speak up, please.
Or, are you embarrassed to publicly advocate retrobolting, even though it allows you to climb routes that would otherwise be beyond your capabilities?
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sasha Cohen
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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Seems like the anchor above the Harding Slot could use some work?... Haven't been in a while. Hi, Coiler!
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Oct 20, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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There was a BASE jumper once who didn't listen to the community. He went around burning objects and informing the media of buildings and antenna's that he was jumping in a city.
So they went to his house, knocked on the door, gagged him, duct taped his arms and legs. Put a tarp on his living room floor and tarred and feathered him... really
When they left him tied up they whispered in his ear " it's ok bro. It's " your BASE buddies "
He got the message
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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Hey Brad Young(Mtn Young) et all - I always try to remove the old bolts when I am replacing bolts.
OK Erik, thanks for a partial answer.
So, on what percentage of "2,000 replacement bolts" have you pulled the old bolt out or otherwise removed it (without leaving a chopped off bolt stump)?
And, when you do pull the old bolts, do you patch the old holes and camouflage them?
Basically, I'm trying to figure out how bad a person you really are. This line of questions is designed to help me figure out whether you show any respect for the rock at all, or, for that matter, any respect for those climbers who will come after you. Do you do anything to restore or do you just leave an unsightly mess?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 20, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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^^^ +1 for mtnyoung.
Over ten years ago, some bloke named Ammon wrote this on the first page:
This is the root of the problem. Some rebolters upgrade the size of the bolt which changes the character of the pitch. Being run-out above a 1/4" rivet/bolt is a lot different that being run-out above a 3/8" bolt w/hanger. I think we all agree that keeping the "feel" of an existing route should be our main priority when replacing hardware.
Sage words.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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This isn't like confusing "apples and oranges". It's more like confusing "apples and horseshit".
Another great line (I may have to steal it). And apropos here too.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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Basically, I'm trying to figure out how bad a person you really are. Why don't you go meet him in person, he is quite easy to find. Even better, you won't have to go far to climb a route he has replaced bolts on. Maybe try that. If you haven't, frankly, given the expanse of his work, I'm going to safely assume you haven't climbed sh!t in the Valley for well over 1-2 decades - you certainly post like it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
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Micronut, did you have to exert yourself and stretch to reach Layton Kor's bolts on the famous roof pitch on the Column?
When I lead that pitch, the only way I got through the roof was because somebody had left some tat on one of the bolts. I still have a hard time believing how Kor got the bolt spacing on that roof.
The tat allowed me to "cheat," otherwise I would have had to retreat (or let TD, who's taller than me, lead it). We didn't carry a stick clip, but short folks should consider such a tool if they know that the FA was taller, and stronger, than they. A retreat would not have been a big deal, in fact, in some cases it's kind of honorable.
@Erik, I certainly appreciate your psych. But focus bro. There's a lot of folks who think you're screwing up. Consider what's being said.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
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Why don't you go meet him in person, he is quite easy to find. Even better, you won't have to go far to climb a route he has replaced bolts on. Maybe try that. If you haven't, frankly, given the expanse of his work, I'm going to safely assume you haven't climbed sh!t in the Valley for well over 1-2 decades - you certainly post like it.
Why no, JLP, I couldn't do that! I might make a mistake and climb something - gasp - DANGEROUS.
I don't intend to meet Erik in person if I can avoid it.
And, honestly, I don't climb as much in The Valley as I used to. I've got almost unlimited rock near home here, I've done most of the routes there that I want to do (over 600 different Valley routes), and "the scene" (freaks included) has become a bit strong for me.
What's your name by the way "JLP," and where do you live?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
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^^^ That appears to be first-hand knowledge that is pretty damning!
Edit: Dang... just missed it. That goes to Mike.'s post just above.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
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Erik Sloan wrote:
Hey Brad Young(Mtn Young) et all - I always try to remove the old bolts when I am replacing bolts.
Mike responded:
This is either an outright lie, or the product of a truly failing brain.
Actually Mike, it's probably an evasion. He didn't really provide much, other than a gross generality. His answer probably has a kernel of truth in it (but I sense that it's a small kernel, a low percentage of properly treated bolt holes).
This is why I asked my follow-up question; we'll see if he's got the guts to respond to that (and, as despicable as his conduct has been, I do have to hand it to him - he seems mostly honest).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
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I don't intend to meet Erik in person if I can avoid it. You and the other nutless slandering fuks here have certainly got that one figured out, haven't you - thank god for Supertopo!!!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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OK "JLP," I'll grow some nuts. Here's the deal:
You meet me first. You come over here to climb on Sonora Pass. I'll keep an open mind and you do too. I can get along with almost anyone. I hope you can too.
Then I'll go over to The Valley and meet Erik. You can introduce us. I won't climb with him though. That's non-negotiable.
Oh, and what's your real name JLP and where do you live?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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Oh, and JLP, it isn't "slander" if it's true. Please get a basic understanding of terms before you use them.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Oct 20, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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Hey Gang!
It seems to me, but correct me if I'm wrong, that old wall FAists were not thinking about creating something for the masses and generations to come, they were thinking about getting their asses up the cliff.
So they drilled minuscule holes and filled them with metal, not to create a scarefest for future parties, but because it was quick and they held.
That sh!t degrades and breaks and should be replaced, we all agree i think.
That 1/4 incher was bomber when it was placed originally. It only got hairy after many years and many ascents.
A brand new 3/8ths is as bomber(ok more) as the original 1/4" when it was placed, but will last way way longer. So why not replace that old mank with solid metal that will last?
Is it really stealing from the parties that want to be scared clipping sh!tty sh!t? (I GUESS AMMON ANSWERED SETTLED THAT UPTHREAD)
If we're seeking the thrill that the FAists had, on a route that's been around for decades, we'll never get it because we're not the ones drilling on new ground.
I guess this is my case for beefing up “on route” hardware but I'm not a Yosemite wallrat so whatevz. I’m just another dude on the internet wootwoot!
That's about where my agreeing with Woot Boy ends.
Dude, don't add bolts to pitches.
And for f*#ksake if you're gonna lop- be discreet about it. Leaving big cut branches at the scene of the crime is just stupid. That sh!t’s almost more offensive to me than the bolting…being a flatgrounder and all.
What are you guys going to do about this guy?
It's not like he's a f*#king zephyr.
If he really is stinking up the joint, make his (real)life miserable. Follow him around, video him, hassle him, wax his windshield every time you see his car. You guys live at the beach, they sell wax at 7/11. Pay a C4 rat to do it if you're shy or feel you have too much to lose.
The internet exposé and diplomatic route def ain't working.
“Eric Sloan, please answer my question…”
“Eric Sloan, you did not answer my question”
Woot boy’s just all neener neener! on your asses.
Plan B- frontier (or surfer) justice.
No need for violence.
Run the guy out, voting him off the island isn’t working.
Watching Tom bust a gasket crying “ISIS!” and sh!t while Woot Boy keeps barfing rainbows is just too much!!!
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Gene
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 07:27pm PT
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Watching Tom bust a gasket crying “ISIS!” and sh!t while Woot Boy keeps barfing rainbows is just too much!!!
Another memorable quote.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 20, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
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Jefe is all right by me.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"woot boy" keeps barfing rainbows .... yea...my gut is telling me the truth has GOT to be somewhere in the middle.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
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^^^
Del Cross: I think the quote you posted is very important.
I think it is also important to point out that Greg posted it over ten years ago. Yes, it's in this thread, but this is an old thread resurrected "Ten Years After."
Just in case anyone coming to the discussion late didn't know the chronology.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 20, 2015 - 09:50pm PT
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while Woot Boy keeps barfing rainbows is just too much!!!
That is hilarious.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 10:49pm PT
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Oct 20, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
Why was I ever rude to you, Jefe?
You're SOLID
Because you're an as#@&%e?
...
;-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 21, 2015 - 12:10am PT
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I'm Krinkled for life, thanks to that sick commercial. What has been seen cannot be unseen.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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Nutless slandering f*#ks isn't funny just ironic.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:27am PT
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http://www.dailycamera.com/get-out/ci_28998241/chris-weidner-aging-anchors-ticking-time-bombs-eldorado-canyon
This is interesting. Local climbing organizations get people to work together to replace existing fixed hardware... It's also interesting to note some of the reasons these local climbing organizations came to be.
Any guesses why....?
Nanook, a-no-no
Nanook, a-no-no
Don't be a naughty Eskimo
I don't intend to meet Erik in person if I can avoid it.
Awww, he's a really nice guy. None of us (besides Vitality and JLP) like to see him retro-bolting routes, but he's very approachable and you'll have more of impact face to face vs spraying him down on the Internet. Next time I see him I'll give him some feedback.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:49am PT
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Hitler was very engaging in person, too, plus he loved dogs.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 21, 2015 - 08:02am PT
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Loved dogs....I just knew there was something about him!
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 21, 2015 - 08:15am PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Hey guys, for some reason reading the last page of this thread made me wanna share the musical genius of the song above. It's like the toughest, baddest asses, "country" song ever. It could be a soundtrack for this thread. You're welcome.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:19am PT
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Hitler was very engaging in person
Charles Manson was like that. And so were Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Richard Cheney and other mass murderers.
Erik's not a bad person, at all. He just does some things that many other people disapprove of because they needlessly degrade other climbers' experiences. The fact that he will post responses here is very good. Part of the reason I started foaming up and spewing so vociferously was that he wasn't responding earlier. Then, when he stated his logic and methodology, I was incredulous that an experienced climber would think that way.
I can fault myself for also dumbing down climbing by making my big cams. The difference between big cams and retrobolting is that people can decide to use a big cam, or not, as part of their climbing experience.
But, if my dream is to climb Tis-Sa-Ack, and experience what Royal Robbins claimed was "probably the most craftsman-like bolt ladder in the world", that option has been forever eliminated by Erik. He has admitted to retrobolting the Robbins bolt ladder, presumably to Erik's arbitrary standard of it being easy for a 5'-7" person to clip the new bolts.
Knowing this, if I still want to climb Robbin's ladder, I would have to go up there with my own drill, find the Robbins bolts that Erik broke off, and put in new ones. Then, I would remove the belay bolts that Erik used to create the second, easier bolt ladder. Or, I could leave both bolt ladders, overlapping each other, and each subsequent climber could choose to A) use the original, harder ladder with 1/4" bolts, or B) use Erik's easier ladder of 3/8" belay bolts, or, C) use a little bit of both, or, D) just clip everything in sight.
What a mess.
I have been needlessly robbed of the option of climbing Tis-Sa-Ack in the way I would want to do it.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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do the hardmen take the old or new bolt ladder to deadbird ledge on zodiac?
[nevermind]. for a few on this thread there seems to be some convergence towards reason. probably nobody will be 100% happy but that's the world, eh. the hyperbolic name calling and dehumanizing of fellow climbers in this thread is toxic.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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I have been needlessly robbed of the option of climbing Tis-Sa-Ack in the way I would want to do it.
Good post; couldn't agree more. Hope Erik is reading this!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 21, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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We operate in an Ironic Universe.
If you've made any modifications what-so-ever to the rock between your belays, you have no base. A future climber could very well have done the pitch with zero modifications. You've reduced the pitch to a contrived and manufactured level of difficulty. Lucky you, as our sport's ethics say the pitch should stay in this state for all time.
Me - I really don't give a sh!t what climbers after you do to the same pitch. It's going to be the same thing to me - exactly - a contrived and manufactured experience. If that's the experience I'm going to have, I'd frankly rather it manufactured by someone with Erik's experience - he has more of it in Yosemite than most alive. That said, manufactured risks are going to be less and less tolerated on good rock in our growing and resource limited sport.
Pure gold - bitching about the adventure and experience difference in a bolt ladder. Good god, that's fuking pitiful. You go dude, you're obviously a fine specimen of pure rock crushing bad-assness.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 21, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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JLP Party of one? Paging JLP Party of one...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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Pure gold - bitching about the adventure and experience difference in a bolt ladder
You are missing the big picture. The point isn't a "ruined bolt ladder." The point is someone modifying existing routes. After I go climb Tis-Sa-Ack, I can report whether or not Erik additionally retrobolted other pitches, such as the famous summit pitch that nails (Good God!) through an undulating roof.
Erik nanooked entire pitches on the Great Slab Route, to make the route go "clean". Did he do that to Tis-Sa-Ack, too? What about the 5.10 off-fist cracks that Robbins found so vile and appalling? Bolted to make them palatable for 5.6 climbers?
A bolt ladder can be a necessary evil that allows an otherwise impossible route of good climbing. How the FA dealt with that necessary evil is an integral part of the route. Nobody climbs a big wall to "get on the bolt ladder". But, if they had to drill a ladder, and were conscientious and tall, like Robbins, the bolts will be widely spaced, and it will be a challenge to top-step against a vertical and windy wall, and not fall over.
You go up on a big wall because it's challenging. If it's not challenging, then why bother? I don't need to have Nanook up there to hold my hand, and kiss my gobies to make them all better. I want to go up there, and experience what real climbers, Royal Robbins and Don Peterson, thought was the best way to get things done.
And I don't want to get all the way up the route to find that the delicious summit apotheosis is a goddamn ladder of belay bolts. Yeah, I could nail past Nanook's belay bolt ladder through the summit overhangs. And I could take the time and effort to remove his unnecessary bolt ladder. And then, later, he could rap down and retrobolt that summit pitch, again.
It would be better if Erik didn't modify existing routes, so that their original challenges would remain for other, capable climbers in the future.
It's supposed to be hard. The hard is what makes it great. If it was easy, everybody would do it.
A League of Their Own
It's supposed to be easy. The easy is what makes it great. If it was hard, not everybody could do it.
Nanook the Kook
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 21, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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Tom, all I can say is that I hope your TTD list is not accurate.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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Kelly, the K-Man. I still have photos of the time I stayed at Yosemite West with Anna. A photo of your railing is on my website. I miss that place. One night, I left the hatch of my SUV open, with a bag of food right there, and it was still there the next day. Try THAT with your car parked in the Curry parking lot! If the bears don't ransack it, the Feds will tow it to their vehicle prison, and you'll have to bail it out.
The list of Nanook TTD I posted is based on facts, statements Erik has made himself, and some speculation on my part.
Speculating this way may not be fair, but if a girl goes to bed with forty guys, it's likely she'll do numbers 41, and 42, too.
Erik dumbs down various aspects of existing routes, such as bolt ladder spacing, huge bolts instead of rivets, etc. So, it would seem reasonable that other difficult, dangerous and scary aspects of those routes would get the Nanook treatment.
I have invoked the Great Slab Route here only because there is some documentation regarding the Nanooking, and even some people posting above that have described what they have personally seen up there.
The only Nanooking I have personally seen is the dowel ladder on Son of Heart. I have been fortunate to climb obscure routes, and to have gotten up there before Erik and his drill got up there.
- Adding bolts to replace hook moves
SPECULATION, but hooking can be dangerous and scary; hard to tell unless a really accurate topo, pre-Nanook, exists; a bolt drilled right at a tenuous hook move would hide it from later scrutiny; a section of hooks moves with the occasional bolt is typically rendered abstractly, and not accurately, on a topo; added bolts to that kind of pitch might be difficult to decipher.
- Adding bolts to bypass entire piton pitches, so they go "clean"
47 bolts added to the Great Slab Route; bolt ladders bypassing existing piton cracks there; Erik has stated he bolts past piton placements and head placements on "clean big wall routes".
- Adding bolts to bypass wide cracks
SPECULATION, but wide cracks can be difficult and scary. Admittedly, Erik may not have any particular aversion to other people using cams to C1 up wide cracks. This one is perhaps the least likely to be on Nanook's TTD. I am way out in left field with this one, but see the above comment about the girl with the round heels.
- Adding bolts to bypass thin cracks, pin scars, or other difficult clean placements
Great Slab Route; it's hard to imagine that entire piton pitches, scars and all, couldn't take some clean gear. Presumably, Erik wouldn't bolt past easy C1 placements; hence, the conclusion he bolted past C3, C4 or whatever was up there; if he bolted past C1 placements, he is even more heinous and destined for the innermost circle of Hell.
- Adding bolts on a free climb to reduce the runouts
Great Slab Route - 47 bolts, and none on free pitches? Ten Days Later had at least one protection bolt added to a free climbing section; Erik admitted to adding a bolt to the third pitch of the Nose. Is that one a protection bolt, an aid bolt, or an aid bolt where there used to be a mandatory free move? I've never done the Nose, so I have no idea what that section is like. Did someone Nanook the free move from the Great Roof to the base of Pancake Flake? That's a famously scary, unprotected 5.7 face move. The chicken bolt on the back of Texas Flake can't necessarily be blamed on Nanook, but whaddya know? It's a fricken belay bolt. When I did that pitch, I thought the bolt was unnecessary, but it was OK for a trade-route, cluster-fucque like the Nose. The Nanook ladder from Texas to Boot was also not particularly obnoxious, to me, given that the route was the Nose.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
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Ian's experience on Tis-Sa-Ack is exactly what this thread is all about.
The old, early 70's rivet/bolt ladder was 35+ years old in 2007. The original, 1/4" dowels, rivets and bolts were scary and in need of replacement.
How should they have been replaced?
OPTION A
Replace the rivets and dowels with 1/4" stainless buttonheads, with a few hangers here and there. Or, even plain steel Rawls, that would last another 35 years. The new gear would go into the existing, old holes whenever possible. The rivet spacing and location would not be materially changed, if at all. The climber would use cable rivet cinches, or dubloon disks, or similar to provide clip-in points at the hangerless rivets.
OPTION B
Replace the original ladder of widely-spaced rivets entirely, with a string of 3/8" belay bolts, each with a hanger, on a different spacing pattern to make it easy for shorter climbers to clip the ladder. The climber would be able to clip each placement's hanger directly, with no need for rivet cinches, etc.
Please note that Option A requires a 1/4" drill to deepen existing holes by about 1/2", or to drill new holes from scratch for dowels or rivets that break instead of pulling out cleanly.
Option B requires the additional work and energy of drilling many 3/8" holes from scratch, with only a few of the existing holes being reused.
Also note that it can take about an hour to drill a 3/8" x 2.5" belay bolt hole by hand. Using a power drill to repair that rivet ladder would be illegal, and a violation of both the Wilderness Act, and a violation of CFR 36.12.
My vote would have been solidly for the first option (which no longer exists) of using 1/4" gear, rivets and some bolts with hangers, in the original holes.
Does anyone else out there, besides Erik, think that the second option makes more sense, and was the correct way to repair that rivet ladder?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:01pm PT
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There's a lot to discuss in this thread, but as far as bolt ladders go I think some people give first ascensionists too much credit.
I would bet 99% of people on a new route don't like bolt ladders and try to get through them as easily, quickly and cheaply as possible without paying much mind to the "experience" of their bolt ladder. 1/4" are easier to drill than 3/8", rivets are cheaper that bolts with hangers, drilling fewer bolts is cheaper and less time consuming than more bolts, some people are taller than others, etc... The whole point is to get back to the real climbing and usually (probably not always) not intended to be a testament to their courage or style or whatever. Bolt ladders are, after all, kinda lame.
I get that some bolt ladders have gained a reputation that people would like to experience for themselves and I generally agree that people shouldn't change routes, but the whole bolt ladder thing might be a little much.
Just my thoughts...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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FA's especially in the 70's and earlier were thinking of their route and not the hordes, which they never anticipated, to follow. The idea of comfortizing routes for subsequent ascents was a completely foreign concept.
What few bolts I put in on alpine first ascents were 1/4 in. hand drilled bolts. I would have put in smaller ones had they been available.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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Tom, there are a couple misconceptions in your last post:
First, there's no such thing as 1/4" stainless steel split-shaft buttonheads - they are all carbon steel. Stainless is too soft for a split-shaft buttonhead. The only stainless steel 1/4" buttonhead is the "Spike" bolt (basically a straight bolt with a wavy bend in it), but Bryan Law found that it pulls out with nearly no force. More reading: 1/4" split-shaft buttonheads aka "Drive" bolts:
http://www.powers.com/product_03601.php
Second, hand drilling out a 1/4" hole to a 2.25" long 3/8" hole in Yosemite takes more like 10-15 minutes, not an hour. Maybe up to 20-25 minutes if the rock is super hard (or the bolter is tired, sore, out of practice, having trouble with drill bit binding, etc). In grainier Yosemite rock it can take as little as 5-6 minutes.
Here's what the ASCA supplies for rivet replacement - 1/4" x 1.5" buttonheads ("Drive" bolts) with two washers - the double washers allow future replacement with minimal rock damage. Typically placed with a good 1/2" sticking out of the rock:
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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Erik admitted to adding a bolt to the third pitch of the Nose. Is that one a protection bolt, an aid bolt, or an aid bolt where there used to be a mandatory free move? I've never done the Nose, so I have no idea what that section is like.
It's an aid bolt where a 5.10 free move or a C2 aid move was required. An approximate 3" by 3" pod with approximately 5 feet of smooth rock above and below.
I remembered that move as a challenge (obviously I'm no badass climber :^) and thought it was a perfectly placed crux as sort of a gate keeper to the rest of the route. If you had trouble with that move perhaps you shouldn't be going further up on such a popular wall and you may be just likely to bail further up with additional consequences and logistics and in more people's way.
One of my favorite moves on the South Face of Washington Column was the reach from the last bolt on the ladder over the Kor roof to a blind placement, then having to trust a placement I could only feel not see. It was unique and fun. If another bolt was put there it would ruin that experience for everyone that followed. Another fun move was the bottom of the 5th pitch, top stepping off a bolt to reach up for a small cam placement. Again if another bolt was put there it wouldn't require balancing on the top step and having to reach so it would ruin the fun of that placement. Yes I'm no badass by a long shot, and yes, they are relatively safe moves off a bolt, but to me they were FUN and I hate to see people robbed of experiences like those.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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That's right.
On FA you don't want to spend days drilling bolts.
It's brutal hard work especially bolt ladders.
Then if you're going diagonal left and you're right handed it's even more brutal.
Stooopid Americans banned bolt guns because ya can't police yer own selves.
It was never the land managers it was YOU you stooopid climbers that did the banning thru the land managers.
Yes YOU stoopid climbers who make all the rules thru the land managers and shoot yerselves in the foot always.
In the beginning it's always no problems and then the masses come with all their crazy loonie ideas.
Then the police state arrives with them ......
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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Tom- your option A sounds awful. 1/4" SS split shaft bolts are half the strength of zinc plated bolts. looking at 850 pounds of pull out strength vs 1700 of a zinc plated. And that is if they are placed perfectly and there is no excessive hammering done to get the bolt in. You are suggesting installing hardware that is weaker than the FA party used (assuming they used standard steel). Have you ever re-used 1/4" holes? I tried to do that on route at Index long ago and had two bolts come out on the next ascent. I could of killed someone. Really bad idea and something I strongly disagree with.
And if it takes you an hour to drill a 3/8" inch hole you are doing something wrong. I average 15-20 min.
I'd go with Option B.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Bolt ladders are lame. And the FA guys want to get through them quickly and easily. That usually means they are reachy, especially if some tall monster like Hugh Burton or Steve Gerberding is up there, stretched all the way out to minimize the number of holes.
The reason I mention them at all is that they represent the most blatant, and easiest to visualize changes in the middle of a pitch. It's harder to visualize that, "This copperhead cable here blew out, then even a pin stack would't hold there, so I drilled a bunch of holes to compensate for the worn-out rock that was no longer usable."
Usable by whom? Could you pound a tomahawk into the copperhead? How good are your pin-stacking skills? Did you try using Leeper Z-tons stacked with LAs? What about equalizing several bad pieces for each aid move? Was it really necessary to drill holes, to bypass that section?
By contrast, saying that a ladder of rivets was replaced by a ladder of belay bolts and hangers is easier to visualize.
Of course, saying, "I drilled a bolt ladder right next to a good piton crack because I think pitons suck" produces an immediate, visceral reaction in the reader. But, that particular behavior has not been as widespread, yet, as replacing smallish bolts and rivets with huge belay bolts. I would like to hear more about bolt ladders being added to Great Slab Route, to bypass piton cracks.
Is is lame to fixate on the quality of the bolt ladder experience? Yes. Does it really matter if the ladder is all 3/8" hangers? Not really. Is the experience of climbing a ladder of belay bolts significantly different from the same ladder of rivets? Oh, hell yeah. There is a much different feel to looking down, and seeing a line of rivet cinches on rivets you can barely see, compared to seeing a line of 3/8" hangers placed every four feet.
The reason someone is up there in the first place is essentially to be sketched out. Nobody older than about 10 years goes to Disneyland, and gets on the Teacups baby ride. Similarly, nobody should go up on an El Capitan big wall, and find out that it's no longer Space Mountain - it's now that stupid Teacups baby ride.
The real issue isn't the quality of the bolt ladder, it is whether or not someone has the right to go up and dramatically change existing routes. The bolt ladders are invoked because they can readily be repaired to near-original condition rather easily. Retrobolting them with belay anchors is just one form of defacement that has been taking place up there.
If we don't talk about aid ladders being Nanooked today, we will be talking about popular free climbs being Nanooked tomorrow. It's already happening to some free pitches, right now.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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Well I don't know about that. No one has ever gone on the teacups ride with my brother and chose to repeat that ride. Way scarier than space mountain. I've seen people's heads almost tore clean off.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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you seem to be trying to define or pigeon hole people's experience into what you think it should be. don't you think people have different reasons for climbing?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
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Micronut, did you have to exert yourself and stretch to reach Layton Kor's bolts on the famous roof pitch on the Column? Or has Erik commoditized that pitch into a boring clip-up, now known as the Nanook Roof?
If that pitch was not Nanooked when you were up there, do you agree with Erik that it would be OK for him to retrobolt it, to add more bolts with a closer spacing, to make the pitch easier? Do you wish that Erik had more fully Nanooked the entire Washington Column, so that you could have successfully made it to the top?
I just want to hear, directly from you, and any other climbers who agree with Erik Sloan that it's acceptable and good practice to retrobolt existing routes on a whim, for any reason, including making those routes easier to climb. The overwhelming majority of posters here, and climbers I know don't agree with Erik. I have been climbing since 1975, and have never met another climber who thought it was OK to wantonly and randomly retrobolt existing routes.
Erik claims to have many supporters who are grateful for his retrobolting. Speak up, please.
Or, are you embarrassed to publicly advocate retrobolting, even though it allows you to climb routes that would otherwise be beyond your capabilities?
Yo Tom,
My buddy led and I jugged the Kor roof. I was just a wanker sliding my toys up the rope on that pitch that day, and still struggled. I never said I fully agree with Erik on all his motives and actions. Was just thanking him for some of the work he's done out there for the climbing community. Now you kids can go on juggling apples, oranges and horse shite. See you around. Stay stoked.
Scott
and by the way....Do you wish that Erik had more fully Nanooked the entire Washington Column, so that you could have successfully made it to the top?
That wouldn't have helped. I dropped my aiders and jugs from the top of the alcove belay and we bailed like a couple Nancies due to my idiocy.
But a nice piece of stone that Column. We'll be back.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
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On the Kor roof Washington Column nobody could reach Kor's bolts except stretch.
So when a couple were added nobody objected except ....????
Who???
Bring a cheater stick was the only alternative except for the fact that people back then left extender slings
so all us normal height mortals could reach those ungodly spaced 3 bolts ......
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
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On some level, I agree with Sloan (and some I don't), so as far as Tom's post goes, I have no problem with option "B" except that it should be hole-for-hole, no additional hole count. Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid. The FA had a good reason to use quarter inchers or rivets. For subsequent replacement, there is no good reason IMO to not use a good bolt. The plain truth is that drilling any bolt to make upward progress is just contrived and flawed from the start, but sometimes a necessary evil to make the route go. Maybe it had to be done on the FA, but you are not preserving the FA experience by leaving crap gear. You will not be drilling like the FA did, so it is a moot point.
Now, as far as adding bolts where there were none (including rivets, bolt-like metal used to make progress, and maybe pins), that is just lame. If early ascents could safely make it up something without the additionalbolt, you can too. Bolting around an entire pitch. Lame.
As far as the patching of old bolt holes; I guess, ideally, I'd like to see that done, but realistically, I imagine it's pretty difficult to do on a bigwall. Most of the time I don't even see the old broken off bolts, even when I'm looking for them.
So yes, here's my take...RE-bolting with better hardware, ok. RETRO-bolting, not ok.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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On some level, I agree with Sloan (and some I don't), so as far as Tom's post goes, I have no problem with option "B" except that it should be hole-for-hole, no additional hole count. Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid.
I agree.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
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Greg and mikeyschaefer, I must have been confused. I thought we got stainless split-shafts from ASCA, about 1.5" or 2", long for rivet repair. The 5-piece belay bolts were stainless, so I guess I mis-remembered the split-shafts the same way. I know what those spikes look like, with the four dimples. Those weren't the ones we used up there. We used rather longish 1/4" split shafts, but we didn't have washers back then
Rawl, or Power Bolt should make a 410/440 stainless split-shaft. The material properties are about the same as a grade 5 bolt. I know that 304 is too soft, but that's not the only SS alloy out there.
I was able to pull in-pitch rivet bolts, redrill the holes deeper, and put the new ones in. The old bolts usually required a good effort with a pair of tuning forks to get them out. The new ones always seemed to be pretty tight, and hard to drive in. The holes never seemed to be worn or flared out. The only bolts that broke were the belay bolts, and only rarely.
I don't recall being able to drill a 3/8" by 2.25" hole, from scratch, in anything like twenty minutes. It took me much longer. Even then, I was old, though. I was probably also not hitting the drill as hard as possible. I remember hitting faster, not harder, while turning the drill. Also, by about the tenth hole, I would have had a sore elbow for the rest of the climb. I don't remember if I'd learned to sharpen the carbide drill bits then. I remember sharpening some bits and sending them to other people.
The proposed drilling on Tis-Sa-Ack, if done to reduce the reach on the rivet ladder, would have required drilling new 3/8" holes from scratch, with only a few of the original holes being reused, if at all. Mike, above, said that Erik prefers to just knock old bolts back and forth until they break off. So, maybe the entire bolt ladder would have been drilled from scratch, with no holes reused.
Anyway, thanks for the comments.
mikeyschaefer, everyone, thanks for answering the question about how that rivet ladder should have been redrilled. Maybe the thing to do is use 3/8" buttonheads, so a repair job could still be a rivet ladder, and not just a line of big belay bolts with hangers.
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ecflau
Gym climber
CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid. I'm having a hard time understanding this quoted part. (New safer hardware to protect older, unsafe (?) hardware.
Regarding new bolts
I'm relatively new to climbing and all these ethics as well, so for the most part, I don't have much to contribute. But through 500 posts now of this thread, I still do not see the issues here. (I personally do not know how to bolt, so I don't plan on being the next Erik Sloan.) While I try to conform to known climbing ethics, I also would be interested in understanding the justification for this?
I read mtnyoung's justification for a "standard" so there isn't a ocean of bolts everywhere, and to me that makes sense - that you don't want that slippery slope, so the "standard" is what the FA party deems. And I understand if unregulated, people may litter the rock with un-necessary gear. That part, I agree.
But as far as the "experience taken away" for instance... top stepping on South Face of Washington Column p5, even if there is a new bolt that helps you aid through, you can still get that experience - just skip the new bolt and do it the way that is done before. I do not understand how that experience is robbed from you, when you can still do it? Or new bolts to protect runouts that the FA party did, if you want to experience it, you can still run it out and not clip the new bolts?
(Again not trying to justify what ES has done, or to say what I think is right or not right. Like fivethirty, I just have a hard time understanding what is done that is so wrong. My only opinion is that I see bolts as a way of making climbing safe in between non-gear places; as for bolt ladders, I just see them as a means to get through sections that are in between fun climbing,)
Thanks in advance...
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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ecflau
Now listen here n00b.
You half no say jose.
You only are allowed to obey.
These online forum masters make all the roools ......
:-)
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
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What I see is this:
If an existing aid line needs new anchors then sure upgrade them. Does anyone object?? Really Original lines on El Cap w/o upgrading the anchors would render them unclimbable.
Replacing existing rivets with new rivets I believe we could all agree on that? But replacing a rivet line with ⅜ bolts is slightly retarded.
Adding bolts to an existing line because you didn't like the flow, line, direction or the crack is also slightly retarded. The bolts on the Zodiac's 14th pitch? Have been removed. Bring a few #4 cam's and climb it naturally. How those were placed (and who) was highly retarded.
Tom going up on Cosmos and replacing and anchors and whatever else on the climb as the FA did no one argues. It was out of respect for the FA to maintain the line in the condition they left it. Replacing rivet ladders and anchors r/t rock fall, missing features and outdated hardware we all understand... I assume
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ecflau
Gym climber
CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
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I shall obey
Just looking to see why I'm obeying, thats all.
:)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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LOL ^^^^^
But replacing a rivet line with 3/8 bolts is slightly retarded.
Why?
Anyways ... 3/8 is stronger than rivet.
A hole is a hole.
Rivet is a stoopid piece to begin with and only used on big walls to speed up bolt ladders on first ascent walls.
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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just skip the new bolt and do it the way that is done before
One reason.. Its much different if you have an out. If you know that this is the only way and there is no other way past that point, then its do or retreat, or even take a big fall which could injure you or kill you. With an out, some of the intensity is gone. People go up there in part for the intensity.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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A hole is a hole.
No, they differ.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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Real men just leap frog their gear all the way to the next belay.
All bolt holes are round .....
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid.
Some rivet ladders were put up with gear that may not hold a fall. That is adding artificial risk. It's not a challenge nature presented, it's something someone manufactured.
Some people feel if you put in a hole fill it with the strongest most reliable option.
Personally I think most bolt ladders especially on trade routes (i.e. routes done by lots of people like the Nose) can be upgraded to bolts and hangers and that helps people move quicker and need less gear. But as Ammon mentioned earlier sometimes you have a rivet at the top of a ladder and then move into difficult aid placements, and you don't want to fall on that rivet which may not hold your fall. So that is part of the challenge of that climb. So if the FA wants to leaves rivets in those places I think we should respect that wish.
But as far as the "experience taken away" for instance... top stepping on South Face of Washington Column p5, even if there is a new bolt that helps you aid through, you can still get that experience - just skip the new bolt and do it the way that is done before. I do not understand how that experience is robbed from you, when you can still do it? Or new bolts to protect runouts that the FA party did, if you want to experience it, you can still run it out and not clip the new bolts?
Because there is no way for future parties on that climb to know which bolts are original or not. Hell even on climbs I've done before I probably wouldn't remember which bolts have been added. Plus it violates the leave no trace / do minimal modification to the rock ethic. And it changes the rating of the climb, a climb that was a 5.11 R mental testpiece could become a 5.11 sport climb. Very different mental challenge.
Hundreds of people on the third pitch of the Nose have now clipped that new bolt, not knowing it was added, and it was a completely forgettable move. Vs. they could have had a hard crux move to make and thought later, wow that was really the highlight of those 3 pitches.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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So the Sloan bolt on the 3rd pitch was used for the speed ascents.
We must dock seconds off if they used it?
Those speed ascent cheaters used unauthorized off limits pre-placed gear.
Their ascents are now deemed null and void.
Yer all cheaters too, you used it .... you have no say.
The thread is now closed!!!
I'm gonna watch television now.
It's the American way.
I done with you American cheaters ..... :-)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 21, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:12am PT
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About the third pitch on the nose. Wasn't that a section that was often fixed with fixed copperheads but sometimes not?
So some people had to free climb or use quite hard aid to climb it, some people could use fixed gear and I guess that some people placed copperheads.
I didn't lead that pitch so I am not completely sure how it looks but according to my understanding of the pitch I would say that a well placed bolt could be a good thing.
To have a single section on an otherwise clean route fixed with old mank is not that good. To require people to free climb at a higher level than they had to in the past and on the rest of the route is neither very good and probably not likely to be the standard when you can use non clean aid to pass the section.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:07am PT
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You know, that approach pitch to the start of the Nose is also a little dicey, someone could get hurt.
Arggh!
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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Yeah! We should bolt Pine Line. Some of those gear placements are probably tough for a 5' 7" climber!! You don't want them placing from a bad stance!!!
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:49am PT
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Once again. The alternative is probably not to have a section with mandatory free climbing but to have a situation with hammering in new copperheads once in a while. Most climbers would probably not even encounter any difference because it is fixed anyway.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:25am PT
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Their ascents are now deemed null and void.
The thread is now closed!!!
I'm gonna watch television now.
It's the American way.
I busted a gut with that one. Thanks for the dose Duck.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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You know, the Bachar-Yerian still has some mandatory free climbing on it, as least from what I can gather from my armchair. Someone should take care of that before it starts to snow.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 22, 2015 - 08:04am PT
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i don't think that section on the nose had copperheads. If I'm remembering right and the bolt in question is the one I'm thinking of than the crux it bypasses is an approximate 3" x 3" pod that's also 3" deep. Could be pin scrarred as mentioned but I don't know what would've fit in there bitd maybe a stove leg?
It's shallow so a cam is tricky to place. Maybe a tri-cam would work better?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 22, 2015 - 08:09am PT
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On the Kor roof Washington Column nobody could reach Kor's bolts except stretch.
So when a couple were added nobody objected except ....????
Who???
Bring a cheater stick was the only alternative
I lead the roof BITD, and it was impressive to see the original spacing. Couldn't have done it without a cheater or the hanging tat, and that humbled me, as it should have.
Just like taking a deer path to a "hidden" crag, where now there are signs with carabiners on them. I suppose it's progress, but I can't help feeling that something has been lost.
In Santa Cruz, old houses that have historic significance are deemed Historic, and if you own such a house, you must remodel in a way that keeps the character of the original. With a route put up by Kor, I would think (and hope) the same principles would apply.
As for hardware, I'm all for upgrading to the new standards in bolting. If you're going to replace a rivet, why not use 3/8" metal, it lasts longer, and I agree with Sloan's POV here. But I disagree with increasing the hole count, and if it's a rivet ladder, maybe leave the hangers off to preserve the original feel.
The other stuff is sticky. Comfortizing, both on free routes and on aid, will always be a battle. There are plenty of folks who think that climbing should be as much fun as possible, with much of the danger removed. It'll take diligence to crown certain routes as Historic in hopes of keeping them from being comfortized.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 09:16am PT
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i don't think that section on the nose had copperheads.
You might be correct. I don't remember much of the pitch. I thought that I have read about some copperheads on that pitch but I can't find it now. The only thing I found were
"A few new 3/8" bolts grace this pitch along with some VERY ratty old fixed nuts and pins/bongs."
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Erik Sloan
Big Wall climber
Yosemitebigwall.com
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Oct 22, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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Wow, this thread has really taken off. Cool. Unfortunately I don't have time to read through all this, proally till the weekend.
I didn't add any of the bolts on the Salathe. Only climbed that awesome route once. I just mentioned that that climb has tons of new bolts, and that everyone is happy about them, as an example.
Keep it classy folks.
Woot!
E
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 22, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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It's 522 posts saying the same 3 things over and over again, I think you got the gist of it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Keep it classy folks.
Words YOU should live by regarding your retro-bolting perspective.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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Sorry GEEDavis I don't think he has the gist of shit
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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I just realized that I thought about pitch 4 (I believe that I climbed pitch 2 and 3 together)... I also found the thread above and got my copperhead/fixed gear understanding from that thread.
I don't think I had any problem at all aiding that pitch but that can be due to fix gear or my red alien.
My point though, that is probably not very relevant to pitch 3 on the nose, is that old fixed gear on clean routes are not that good and a rivet or bolt might be a better solution to that.
One good example is lurking fear when I climbed it. Mostly straight forward clean aid but with one short section of number 1 heads. The heads are not going to last forever and clean aiding that section would be impossible. I also believe that the heads would be quite difficult to place but that is just a guess. A rivet or maybe a bolt might be a better solution than having everyone using fixed heads that are going to break someday.
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Mark Not-circlehead
climber
Martinez, CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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Can someone please show me the federal statute that gives the authority for first ascentionists to "own" a section of a cliff, into perpetuity?
Climbing is an artificial activity. It doesn't provide food, shelter, or reproduction. It's essentially entertainment for us humans.
If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
No one "owns" a route. And if we can't agree on our own arbitrary rules, some non climber will create the rules for us.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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WOOT!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:37am PT
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as for bolt ladders, I just see them as a means to get through sections that are in between fun climbing
As mentioned earlier in this thread, different people find different things to be fun.
Some people like to climb steep, very run-out, difficult slab climbing, using invisible friction holds. I don't think that is fun, at all.
Meanwhile, I find standing super-tall on a super-steep wall, whether on pins, heads, hooks, rivets or dowels, and trying maintain balance in gusting wind conditions to be fun, if a bit unnerving and exasperating.
So, for some freaks, like me, climbing up a well-crafted bolt ladder can be part of the Big Wall Fun. Clipping up a ladder of belay bolts 3-feet apart is not so fun.
I think the main thing I have taken from this spirited exchange is to recognize that 3/8 buttonheads are better than 1/4" buttonheads for rivet ladders. A few belay bolts, here and there, along a bolt ladder is not the worst thing in the world. Some younger climbers think it's OK to retrobolt past existing piton cracks. Many older climbers agree with me that it's not OK to retrobolt past existing piton cracks.
At any rate, it seems like there is some degree of convergence in this controversy. The people at both ends of the spectrum have apparently been coming closer together, with respect to agreeing what should, or should not be done to existing climbing routes.
This is awesome!
It is so awesome, I have created a useful graphic, to document the whole energetic affair.
You know they haven't laid hands on the Captain since since Reagan was in the White House and the Soviet Union was still a country.
You are attempting to speak with absolute authority from a position of complete ignorance.
Many of us from the crustancient "Don't Retrobolt" class here have climbed on El Capitan during Obama's term in office, as well as when Reagan was in office. And, most likely, will do it again after Obama leaves office.
Perhaps what you meant to say was,
You know, they have been laying hands on the Captain since before Reagan was in the White House, and are still going up. Awesome!
The fact that there is some confusion about the exact location of Nanook's admitted extra bolt on the 3rd pitch of the Nose doesn't negate the "Don't Retrobolt" argument, it argues in favor of not retrobolting. It is difficult to determine which bolts on a route have been recently added. This renders the "just don't clip it, brah" alledged solution largely unworkable. And it also renders the "just chop it, brah" alleged solution equally unworkable.
The real solution is to not retrobolt, or, if you must, please restrain yourself as much as possible, and do it as little as possible.
Pretend retrobolting is like smacking your dog around when you're pissed off at him. It's not a great thing to do, and you really shouldn't do it, at all. But, if he really, really needs it, only smack him around a little bit.
Smacking the ever-living hell out of your dog, all the time, every time you interact with him, is going to create problems later, for you and the community at large.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 22, 2015 - 10:17am PT
I don't think the "Original Intent" folks are going to win out, in the end. That essentially relegates all El Cap routes to Museum status. Subsequent generations of climbers are not going to recognize the (false) authority of the FA team.
DMT
They already lost. Welcome to America's largest peg board.
WOOT!!!!
Just watch out for the sh#t bags, falling haul bags, and annoying d0uche bags.
edit: ~~~
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Is it irony or just desserts that the young guys are on the old guys for being old more than the old guys are on the young guys for being young? Guys like Crusty Cur; it is all they got.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
This is precisely the root of the problem with this "progressive" thinking. If every climber thought this way we would be the worst user group on the planet. Of course rock can be destroyed, to say it can't is ridiculous.
We all agree that no single person "owns" the rock. We all share it. That's why these discussions are so important, IMO.
Around 2003 I was climbing Shortest Straw with my brother and he got stuck on a move on the second pitch. I had just climbed the route the previous season and couldn't figure out why he was having trouble. Especially since he's 4" taller than me. I finally had to rap to the ground, find a branch, rig a stick clip and jug back up.
I kept thinking he was just missing something but when I cleaned the pitch it was different. The bolts had changed positions and sure enough, it was about 18" out of reach. I thought it VERY odd and continued our ascent.
Back on the ground we ran into Erik, who asked us about the route and specifically about the second pitch. He informed us that the had rearranged the bolt spacing. I told him it was f-d up now and that it was unreachable.
He looked puzzled and just said, "really?"
"Yeah, why didn't you just use the same holes? Didn't you at least stand on the piece below to see if you could reach it?"
Erik, you probably don't remember but you just gave me this mischievous grin and said, "I was making it better".
That statement from you really resonated and was the moment I really knew something was wrong.
What gives you the right to make routes "better"?
I made two conclusions with this one experience.
1) you're going to do whatever you want up there regardless of what others think.
2) you didn't put a lot of thought in what you did. (where you were placing bolts)
I stated up-thread that you are a decent guy with lots of great qualities. I stand by that. Nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes. We should all keep an open mind and learn from our mistakes and from each other.
I wish you would take in consideration what the vast majority of climbers are asking from you. At this point I don't think the size of the bolts are the bigger issue.
We just want you to keep true to the hole count.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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What gives you the right to make routes "better"?
Nuff said!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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This controversy apparently will continue as long as we use bolts in climbing. Anyone reading the introduction to Roper's 1964 (red) A Climber's Guide to Yosemite Valley should recognize all the arguments. In that introduction, Roper said that while anybody has a "right" to place or remove a bolt, ethical considerations matter. One should not remove bolts from a popular beginner's climb because of finding and using an A5 crack nearby, nor should one add bolts to a difficult aid climb because he or she can't (really won't) do it without the bolts. As he said (from my memory, so may be mere paraphrase): "Not every climb is for every person. Ethically, this is correct, but excess bolts can make this a paradox."
I should say, though, that adding bolts to existing routes never seemed to stop. Robbins placed 8 bolts on In Cold Blood when he made the first ascent in 1970. When we climbed it less than three years later, there were already at least that many more added. Most of the added ones were "chicken bolts," but I didn't bypass any of them in part because I was lazy and quite terror-averse, but also because the idea of not enlarging pin scars was already taking hold. I'm quite certian, however, that I would not have placed a new bolt, because I had already led A4 pitches with ground fall potential, and was quite confident (maybe overconfident) of my ability.
I think if big walls remained largely pin placing marathons, we would treat "offending" non-original bolts the same way we sould treat glue-on holds - we'd get rid of them. But increased climbing population and the destruction we created placing pitons, even with our relatively small numbers, forced us to change our style. For most climbs now, we don't measure the climbers' competence by just the number of bolts they used, but by the difficulty of the free and aid climbing they did.
That doesn't mean that we should give retro-bolters a free hand, though. Adding bolts to most of the Apron or Cathedral Rocks climbs would change the character of the game too much for my taste, and I would hope that any bolts added (as opposed to being replaced) would get the chop. Similarly, a few extra bolts can turn A5 to A2. Do we really have the right to "improve" a route when we change the level of leading (or following on traverses) commitment? For a lot of us, that commitment is part of the skill set of climbing.
John
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
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Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...)
That is a perfect example of fallacious reasoning. Apparently, they don't teach critical thinking in high school.
The subject of your faux-logical statement is "rock". The subject of the discussion on this Supertopo thread is also "rock". But, there are various meanings to the word, "rock". You have, using the trickery of advanced language skills, attempted to dupe us with your sophisticated sorcery.
As used in this Supertopo thread, "rock" means a large, massive and solid escarpment, suitable for recreational rock climbing; or the material from which that escarpment is composed.
There is a great deal of evidence that escarpments of this type can, and do, sustain harm and damage at the hands of people. To say that the Triple Cracks on the Shield have not been damaged by the repeated placement of pitons is absurd. If the Shield is too far up there for you, go look at Serenity crack from the base. It's right over there by the start of the Royal Arches.
I'll debunk your statement even further with this:
limestone is a type of "rock" composed of calcium, carbon and oxygen
limestone, when heated, decomposes into calcium oxide and carbon dioxide
neither calcium oxide nor carbon dioxide are "rock" materials
therefore, the "rock" has been destroyed by the process of heating it
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
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Not to mention somehow paper destroys rock every time.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
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Paper does not destroy rock.
Rock breaks scissors
Scissors cut paper
Paper COVERS rock (or hides rock. Whatever)
EDIT
In the context of this thread, it should be noted that a straitjacket does not "destroy" a lunatic, it merely "covers" him, or "hides" him from others.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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Every single bolt placement made anywhere, should be considered carefully, on an individual, bolt by bolt placement. I see folks going up on the rock armed with tools and hardware, looking at it from the perspective of a project,i.e.. we've got 22 bolts and hangers, where should we put them?
Arne
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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This is precisely the root of the problem with this "progressive" thinking. If every climber thought this way we would be the worst user group on the planet. Of course rock can be destroyed, to say it can't is ridiculous.
We all agree that no single person "owns" the rock. We all share it. That's why these discussions are so important, IMO.
…
I wish you would take in consideration what the vast majority of climbers are asking from you. At this point I don't think the size of the bolts are the bigger issue.
We just want you to keep true to the hole count.
So, great aid climbers can write too? Well said.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
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I guess the bigger question is what kind of pussy, ass, rock can break scissors, but can't break paper?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 22, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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You see this is why I'm not religious anymore.
To think that I used to be on the nanook hating band wagon. To think he's starting to come off as the sane one after all this.
The power of the Internet.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 22, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
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I just mentioned that that (the Salathe) climb has tons of new bolts, and that everyone is happy about them, as an example.
Yup sounds totally sane to me...
everyone is happy that a climb that showed el cap could be climbed with only 13 bolts is happy about tons of new bolts. As I mentioned that ship has sailed, but do you think Royal Robbins is happy about that?
Just like politics there are people who take things to far in both directions and get hateful about it. But that doesn't justify the opposite side of the issue.
As mentioned actions speak louder than words and bolts placed vs chopped will be the final decision on many particular climbs. However I hope there are always people that learn from discussions like these, like i have, and understand what climbing ethics and style are and why they are important. But there will also always be tone deaf people who can block out reasonable arguments so they can keep doing what they want and keep believing what they believe.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
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This isn't that hard, given a few basic principles:
1) "Climbing" just is ascending by conforming yourself to what the rock presents as much as is humanly/technically possible at the time.
2) "Better style" just is most closely conforming yourself to what the rock presents than was done previously.
3) "Conformity to what the rock presents" just is using rock features without modifying those features in any way.
4) Drilling does not contemplate "features." By definition, each act of drilling is a punt regarding conformity to what the rock presents.
5) Thus, every act of drilling "reduces" the style of an ascent, making that ascent less an act of "climbing."
6) The same principles as above apply to such things as pounding pitons and other rock-destructive acts.
Now, none of the above imply that pitons, drilling, etc. are "bad" or even should not be done!
In fact, the act of putting up a new route JUST IS the act of establishing a "baseline" style of ascent for that patch of rock. So, that is completely consistent with "climbing." Any new FA in effect throws down the gauntlet to say, "This is the best style I believe can be mustered at this time by anybody with any gear." That's a responsibility that should be taken seriously, as it WAS with Salathe Wall.
If others (perhaps later and with better gear) can improve the style, thus ascend the same patch of rock by more closely conforming to the features of the rock, then such subsequent ascents establish the new "baseline" of acceptable style for that route.
The argument that we should never do FAs that involve ANY rock destruction because maybe somebody later with better gear can do the ascent "better" is mistaken. In general, FAs are well-done to the stylistic standards of the time. And we ARE reaching an outer edge of technology in terms of actually USING the features of the rock. Suction cups do no rock damage, but neither is using them "climbing," because there is NO attempt to ascend BY conforming oneself to the FEATURES of the rock.
Furthermore, the big problem we face is not that "so many" FAs are going up in crappy style. There are some, for sure. But THE problem this thread addresses is that EXISTING routes, even put up LONG ago, are now being TRASHED by simply ignoring the above principles that ARE about rock-preservation WHILE we do actually CLIMB. The problem of this thread is principle (5), whereby a HIGHER stylistic bar was established on the FA, and then some yahoo comes along to pussify the route BY adopting a lower style, less conforming to what the rock presents, and thereby:
MAKING AN ASCENT OF THE ROUTE LESS AN ACT OF "CLIMBING" THAN IT WAS WHEN THE ROUTE WAS ESTABLISHED!
Thus, ES and his ilk are actually attacking the very core of what climbing IS and what we are seeking BY doing it!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
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What really pisses me off is generational arguments. Words like "museum" and "gym" climber. Trying to judge era's as if time or evolution are based on this. They're really different facets of a game. And the point is to respect all the different facets. Combine them or not to recognize them as being distinct is decidedly against human nature. Everyone cares to a certain extant and from that caring comes creativity as well as war. Most of us have ego's and want to be recognized for being disinct. There are very few self-less climbers, putting up climbs like Mandalas and erasing them or simply allowing them to evolve as DMT suggests. But to call what DMT suggests a generational thing to me is wrong. One could argue that climbing is either "evolving" or "devolving" with equal authority.....
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:19pm PT
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So. Someone needs to sh#t on somebodys ropes it appears.
That always fixes it right up. It's been said.
Never mind, not necessary as we have the newer version of that on supertopo, verbally shitting - woot?
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
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Couchmaster is right, sh#t is the end of the line. Beats rock, paper, and scissors every time.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
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I'm struck mostly by the impotence of those opposing what Erik represents. I'm not. Supertopo = never-has-been wankers from the past with irrelevant and ignorable opinions.
I have to say first-hand perspectives that stick to known facts like Ammon's carry about 1000x the impact of Tom's - who has not seen anything Erik has done yet is the thread's most verbose and frequent poster. Instead of fact, Tom's posts range from distorted speculation to pure childish slander. Suggestion Tom: STFU and/or drive to the Valley and actually do something.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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Supertopo = never-has-been wankers from the past with irrelevant and ignorable opinions.
LOL....
Another self-referential implosion from JLP.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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JillyPee, love her!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 22, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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I had a comment regarding the Salathe wall. I have done the route earlier this year. As I remember none of the pitches above freeblast had bolts. I thought it was a great job by the FA party to choose such a natural line of ascent.
The only bolts that I think have been added are at the belays. For a route as crowded as the Nose on some days, I didn't feel it was over bolted at the belay stations. There were actually a few junkshow anchors that would benefit from getting replaced by two bolts and a chain. Proud wall like the Salathe does not deserve a mix of old webbing connecting a bunch of old pins and frayed nuts. Of course it does not deserve convenience bolts neither.
I wonder what do other people think regarding replacing fixed junkshows with clean anchors? I think replacing pins, and other fixed gear on the pitches, would change the climb and should not be done for the most part. But how about anchors that are getting old on climbs that are getting more and more popular?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 23, 2015 - 06:20am PT
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If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
No one "owns" a route. And if we can't agree on our own arbitrary rules, some non climber will create the rules for us.
To bad they didn't offer history at your high school.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 23, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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Here's an idea...
Stop buying bolts and start a college fund for your child.
We aren't friends anymore.
You suck.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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Suggestion Tom: STFU and/or drive to the Valley and actually do something.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you mean, "Hey, Old Guy. Get off your ass and go climb more, as in, do it now. Or shut the f*#k up."
Or, do you mean, "You have not done enough climbing that was cool, so you csn't SPRAY. So, just shut the f*#k up."
Or, do you mean, "I'll meet you in the Meadow. And then we'll see who is the baddest assed mo-fo, and we'll see who goes car-to-car, on Frenzy, no grabbing on gear."
Or, do you mean, "You might have had the high moral ground on Cosmos, but that was SO-O-O-O- long ago, I can now say, F*#K YOU TOM."
I don't understand tatttoos, piercings, Facebook and retrobolting.
It only makes sense that purveyors of those paradigms don't understand me.
I am astonished that someone would actually suggest that I need to STFU and go climbing on this thread.
STFU makes A LOT of SENSE - Mea Culpa.
But, the other part? How much more climbing, after 38+ years, am I expected to do?
Crustancient = crustacean + ancient = crabby and old
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 23, 2015 - 07:32am PT
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Let's get back to some bolt chopping...
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 23, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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She obviously wants it bad
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 07:50am PT
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That is the wrong power tool.
I made a concrete roto-hammer implement for my friend's ex-wife that was perfect.
True story.
His name was John FXstXr.
EDIT
I must be getting senile. It was a SAW-ZALL implement - concrete, old Saw-Zall blade, and a foot of 1.5" PVC pipe and a cap. The story was true, but I got confused about what power tool was involved.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 23, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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Was she a contractor or....?
Pretty good one.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 23, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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No, she was obviously marrying one. You know what they say about construction guys.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Oct 23, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
I think this every time I'm in a rock quarry. Good thing nature is so constant and all the sand and dust and rubble is just as pristine for climbing as the pre-quarried state
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 23, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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Sloan is making routes harder, Elcap Pirate?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 23, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
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The reason someone is up there in the first place is essentially to be sketched out. Nobody older than about 10 years goes to Disneyland, and gets on the Teacups baby ride. Similarly, nobody should go up on an El Capitan big wall, and find out that it's no longer Space Mountain - it's now that stupid Teacups baby ride.
The real issue isn't the quality of the bolt ladder, it is whether or not someone has the right to go up and dramatically change existing routes. The bolt ladders are invoked because they can readily be repaired to near-original condition rather easily. Retrobolting them with belay anchors is just one form of defacement that has been taking place up there.
If we don't talk about aid ladders being Nanooked today, we will be talking about popular free climbs being Nanooked tomorrow. It's already happening to some free pitches, right now.
If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
As mentioned actions speak louder than words and bolts placed vs chopped will be the final decision on many particular climbs. However I hope there are always people that learn from discussions like these, like i have, and understand what climbing ethics and style are and why they are important. But there will also always be tone deaf people who can block out reasonable arguments so they can keep doing what they want and keep believing what they believe.
I don't believe that somebody should add a bolt to any route any time they feel like it. If a majority of climbers at an area want routes left in their current conditions. Fine, they should be. Or even if the majority want routes chopped and restored to the FA condition. On the other hand, if a clear majority truly want a baby Teacup ride (and there aren't any access issues with land managers) then I think the minority should respect that. Those that want to be sketched out can always find that if they want. Free solo, loose alpine routes, take up proximity flying, etc. Heavy use areas change over time. See SuperTopo guides vs the Roper guide.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
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On the other hand, if a clear majority truly want a baby Teacup ride (and there aren't any access issues with land managers) then I think the minority should respect that. Those that want to be sketched out can always find that if they want.
Is is really "the minority" that doesn't want to see every Yosemite Valley route Nanooked down to Teacup ride status? I haven't seen more than few people posting here who advocate for that. Furthermore, real climbers, like Ammon McNeely and Eric Kohl, have said right here that they oppose retrobolting.
I don't give a rat's ass about Yosemite trade routes, like the Nose or Lurking Fear or Mescalito, TT, Zodiac or the Salathe. Those routes are obnoxious enough with so many people who leave their piss, poop and trash all over the place. Every time I have climbed El Cap, the worst parts were those few times the route shared pitches with a trade route.
Erik is nanooking even obscure, seldom-climbed routes. Who in their right f*#king mind thinks that the Great Slab Route needs to be commoditized, complete with bolt ladders bypassing piton cracks that a real climber, Layton Kor, used for the FA? The South Face and the Prow are right there, on the same wall, dumbed down for less-skilled climbers. Is the situation gotten so bad that modern climbers are so stupid, they might get lost on the Prow, wind up on the Great Slab Route, and need a bolt ladder to obviate a rescue by Werner's YOSAR crew? Good F*#king God! Stick with video games, you retarded little pussies!
If I go up to climb another obscure, non-trade route, I will probably find that it, too, has been totally Nanooked. Why? Why should every route be turned into the stupid Teacup baby ride? Because a Hell's legion of infantile, inconsiderate "progressive" shitheads have swarmed onto the climbing scene?
The idea that X is OK, therefore it can be extrapolated to Y, and then applied to the entire set of routes called "Yosemite Big Walls" is insane.
Not every Gumby is going to go up the Sheep Ranch, or Native Son, or Lost in America, or Continental Drift. But, even those routes are getting the Nanook-the-Kook retrobolt treatment.
Erik is making the routes better
Really? In what parallel universe?
Reality is a democratic process, and I see the votes being against him. Climbers who write books, who are widely respected, who have established new routes, and the majority of those who post here don't agree that retrobolting is acceptable. Maybe the situation is different in the Valley these days, with the "majority" now being those with no clue, no sense of history or tradition, no climbing skills, and no respect for other climbers.
This moronic, Drill-As-Fast-As-You-Can "modern" ethic is championed by the same type of idiots who spray painted all over the Mount Baldy Pipeline, and also spray painted the residential walls nearby. The cops came in and now the place is almost impossible to ride. The same thing happened at a concrete spillway on a ranch near my house - the owner was cool with us riding there, until some pre-Nanook kook sprayed LOCALS ONLY.
Do you young, modern, progressive climbers also go and sh#t in the public swimming pool? Or pour your oil-change pan all over the freeway? Or put broken glass in the sandbox? Just for the fun of it, do you chum with fish guts just outside the breakers at popular surf spots?
I wish that you young idiots would just stick to defacing your own bodies, and leave the rest of the world alone.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
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A real climber is someone who can accomplish something new, or repeat someone else's accomplishment without resorting to drilling new holes to make it easier.
A real climber actually climbs a route. He doesn't drill new holes, to evade the route.
A real climber respects the rock and leaves it intact for other climbers.
A real climber understands the difference between the challenge of difficult climbing, and the non-challenge of drilling past difficult climbing.
A real climber values the experience of going up a route more than the experience of taking a summit selfie.
A REAL CLIMBER DOESN'T RETROBOLT EXISTING ROUTES TO MAKE THEM EASIER
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 23, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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^Obviously someone has never done a proper summit selfie.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
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You're right. I've never taken a selfie, ever. And probably never will.
This photo was taken with a CAMERA (of all things) using a time-delayed shutter (WTF is a shutter?????)
Tom Randall, Pete Davies, Tom Kasper, Pete Zabrok
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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One thing that never changes, men get older and get more pissy and indignant, how dare they change things! Why when I was a young man, I used to climb El Cap with just a hammer and my nuts...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 23, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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I'm miffed to not be included in Tom's list of "real climbers." I fit the established criteria, I think.
But, then again, I only think that I have hands. I'm not sure of very many things.
Except that retro-bolting is pussifying.
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The Hoosier
Big Wall climber
Bloomington, IN
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Oct 24, 2015 - 08:25pm PT
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*grabs popcorn*
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No Nickname Given
Social climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 24, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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I haven't ever really spent much time on the boards, honestly being too busy climbing and hiking around Yosemite - internet is difficult to get around here! I'm also hesitant to add anything into a heated debate online because all I think this will get us is a load more NPS in our business. Oh have you all noticed those game cameras that have gone up on all the Yosemite climbing approach/descent trails?
That being said, I feel obliged to step in since everyone else Erik actually climbs and helps is like me and probably hasn't even seen this thread and I feel we should be represented. Full disclosure: I am also working on an updated free climbing select book with him. (A quick aside - God are we in it for the money! I know his big wall book is making him so much! And his website: raking in cash, it might just sell to Facebook. Sorry for sarcasm, I just thought that was one of the more egregious claims made on this thread is that a guidebook to rock climbing is some sort of pot of gold I think business 101 classes probably have a few things to say about the time spent versus fiscal return on that one.)
Anyways, I think Erik is a stand up guy (as do most who have actually met and carried on a conversation with him) and is generally as responsive in this thread as far as one can be with fifty or so opinions being bandied about with very little philosophic clarity or coherence. My contribution will be brief and speak to the points that I can specifically attest to in my first-hand interactions with the non-digital human Erik Sloan - again in contrast with most of this thread. I do this in hopes that it will clear a few misconceptions and rumors about what he has been teaching and advocating and also keep NPS from coming down on us as a community for the rumors being posted on a website.
First, Erik showed me how to hand place a bolt by demonstration and I can attest that it was terribly embarrassing to see how slowly my first hole went compared to the one that he made. I think those lobbing accusations about speed of drilling need to go out, drill a couple thousand and see how much quicker they go after practice.
Second, I can't say if he power drilled in the past, but he gave no indications that I should do anything like that or that he had.
Third, he showed me how and where bolts break, stressing that unusable old holes should be patched and new ones should be drilled- some were accusing him of leaving empty or poorly patched holes earlier in this massive thread? I know of very few people, climbers included, that care more about the Valley.
Fourth, he gave me some of his OWN bolts so that I could go up and replace some old anchors on the Apron. Anyone who climbs over there knows that there are some time bombs for sure.
So, the sum total of this disciple's instruction was relatively tame. No call to bolt up new faces or anything crazy.
Finally, I will add something that Erik said that perfectly captures what I like about him and his view of climbing. After I recently climbed the Nose for the first time, I was a bit dispirited about how long it took, how crowded it was, and the general malaise that hits you after a big wall. Erik told me not to stress. "You've started a relationship: you will come back to that route a hundred more times, you'll climb it with your wife, if you're lucky you can climb it with your kids." This is the attitude of someone who cares deeply about the Valley and climbs here, even if he differs from some of you all's specific feelings on ancient rivet ladders and bolts in the general.
I hope that Erik keeps his stoke in the face of internet vitriol and continues replacing those time-bombs, along with all you others who toil to replace bolts, ancient rivets, broken dowels. Your work is appreciated. Hope that everyone on this thread has a great time climbing at your local crags and come back to those Yosemite routes that you have developed a relationship with. Hell, if you think you remember the bolt count or placement of some dowels, rivets, or heads, come back and chop any extra bolts you see! Bring out the old topos. Not stirring anything up here, dead serious, do it. A call to arms, hammers, and aiders of the internet, come climb! We Valley locals truly love to see folks come back and climb after years away, even if it means a few bits of metal flying!
Send hard! (Especially all those nail-ups)
Cary
P.S. I probably won't be able to respond to any questions/comments/insults in the near future, as I will be out free climbing or working on the new guide. If anyone has any cool spots they've scoped free climbing that haven't been published and are fun, hit me or Erik up and we will totally come climb with you and put it in the book. Lets spread some good vibes up in the Valley and start climbing stuff!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 24, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
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bandied about with very little philosophic clarity or coherence
The fact that you apparently don't "get it" is not a shortcoming of many posts on this thread that were both clear and coherent.
My contribution will be brief
Except that then it wasn't.
I don't personally take that to necessarily be a bad thing (LOL). But your non-brief post basically amounted to: "Erik has been really, really... really, ridiculously nice to me. So, he's a good, good man."
Sorry... that's not gonna get it! Being really, really nice to people as he trashes a wide spectrum of routes is neither an explanation nor an excuse for trashing a wide spectrum of routes.
As I argued above (with, I think, a fairly high level of "philosophic clarity"), retro-bolting routes is the antithesis of what CLIMBING actually is. It is non-climbing or anti-climbing. It guts the essence of WHY we climb in the first place.
However "nice" he is amounts to an utter irrelevancy to me in this context.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 06:11am PT
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Thanks Cary. Some of us do appreciate posts like yours that have a few facts in it. Erik has asked twice if anyone had climbed the route in question: ten days after, and I don't believe anyone who is bitching has since he did the bolt upgrade/replacement. That would weigh the most, much more than internet bitching.
Posts like your are why I like it here.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Oct 25, 2015 - 06:45am PT
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couchmaster never end a sentence
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 25, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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As I argued above (with, I think, a fairly high level of "philosophic clarity"), retro-bolting routes is the antithesis of what CLIMBING actually is. It is non-climbing or anti-climbing. It guts the essence of WHY we climb in the first place.
so the 'essence of climbing' is trusting crappy, 30 year old bolts?
I'll alert the prominent climbing sponsors of this change in focus immediately!
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John M
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 08:02am PT
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Patrick Compton wrote..
so the 'essence of climbing' is trusting crappy, 30 year old bolts?
Nope… I'm sorry.. but this is exactly one of the problems. People don't understand the terms.
Retro Bolting .. Versus .. Re bolting
Re Bolting is replacing old bolts with new. No one has a problem with that. Or at least very few do..
Retro Bolting is adding new bolts where there were none before.. A much different situation
It can include adding bolts to a belay.. something perhaps necessary on trade routes. ( my opinion.) Something Eric has admitted to.
It can also include changing bolt ladders to make them easier. Something else Eric has admitted to.
Adding bolt ladders where none were before. ( not sure on this one. )
( if there are others.. perhaps it would be good if you stated them for the sake of clarity )
…….
whats sad to me is all the slagging has made this thread difficult to read. So too many people don't try. Then you have the people who use sarcasm, which is often difficult to interpret, making this thread even more difficult as most of the new climbers don't' know who the older climbers are.
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ChizzDizzle
Trad climber
Rocklin,CA
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Oct 25, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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Sweet!!!! A Select Free Climbing Guide with all the updated free climbing beta there is!!
Rack:
20 QD
Leave that burly rack at home Bro all climbs have fat bolts! You want to climb Outer Limits? QD's yo!!! Rostrum and Astroman?!?! QD's bro! Serenity/ SOY QD's BROOOOO!!!! My team and I are here cauce we are Super Psyched for you and we want you to have a super sweet safe time cause we have the peyche BRO!!!!!!!!
Good luck Tuolumne you are next!!!!!
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Prod
Trad climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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whats sad to me is all the slagging has made this thread difficult to read. So too many people don't try. Then you have the people who use sarcasm, which is often difficult to interpret, making this thread even more difficult as most of the new climbers don't' know who the older climbers are.
Agreed John.
Hey Jammer,
Just because someone says that Erik is a nice guy, does not mean that they support his actions. For me I just thought the Eric Sloan depreciation thread was uncalled for.
I'm a fan of re-bolting, not retro bolting. As The Fet showed there are lots of Grey areas in between where most of us fall.
Cheers,
Prod.
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John M
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 09:43am PT
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When people are willing to truly listen and genuinely represent the community, this kind of thing never happens.
That applies to both sides of the equation.
And it is pie in the sky.. people aren't perfect. And are often selfish
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Oct 25, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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I'm just curious as to how committed people are to climbing these climbs in the same style as the first ascent.
I mean do you use the same foot wear? Go without chalk? A laid rope when applicable...
Or, is it just Eric's bolts that you have a problem with?
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John M
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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Chalk has been argued pretty hard. footwear and ropes not so much, as they don't hurt the rock or change the experience for the person coming behind them. People have though often expressed their admiration for how difficult it must have been for early climbers, without the gear we have today.
The two posts I find telling are Greg Barnes post early in the thread saying the ASCA does not support Erik, and Ammon's post ( Elcap pirate), telling his experience. I don't know either of these people, only their reputation and what they have posted on this forum. Both seem very level headed and both have issues with what EriK is doing.
For the sake of clarity. I have not climbed El Capitan. Will likely never climb the Captain. I am a friend of Erik's though. And am interested in this subject. Not the bashing of Erik. But the changing of the guard and the changing outlook on how the rock can be used.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 25, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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I click on a few people who post negatively about Erik like Jammer, etc. and see their photos and/or trip reports, and what I see is just political crap and cartoons, no climbing content. I get the feeling the naysayers suck at climbing anymore, otherwise they would be doing it. When you get to old to climb, maybe you just need to stand down if you can't stand up. Getting old is no excuse for not getting off your ass. You guys got way to much time on your hands and not enough drive and motivation obviously. Erik is out their re-bolting routes that certainly need it, and he may have retro bolted a few things also, I don't know. Madbolter, you disappoint me. You are a guy who did WOS I believe? You were vilified for years, and yet here you are doing the same to someone else. Sad times man.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 25, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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Then start a new thread..
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
Oct 25, 2015 - 11:21am PT
Then start a new thread..
Yeah start a 4th thread about this shet.
~~~
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Let's start a thread on Growing Up...
Oh wait
...
~~~
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 25, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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Madbolter, you disappoint me. You are a guy who did WOS I believe? You were vilified for years, and yet here you are doing the same to someone else. Sad times man.
There's a huge difference the the two cases that OUGHT to be apparent:
I was vilified for decades based upon lies, and they were lies that could trivially have been seen for the lies that they were. Erik is being vilified for the FACTS of his behavior on many different routes, and this behavior has been seen and reported-on first-hand by people that have seen his handiwork, including, as we have seen on this very thread, some very credible individuals. By contrast, WoS sat there unrepeated for decades, although it was attempted by many, so the truth was clearly there to be had. In the face of the truth, the climbing community believed lies.
If the vilification of me HAD been based on facts rather than lies, it would have been justly-deserved. HAD Mark and I done what it was claimed, we would have deserved the "vilification."
You seem to think that it is always unacceptable to call somebody out for their behavior, and I have never believed that. I think that peer-pressure is about the only legitimate recourse the climbing community has. By "peer pressure" I do NOT mean physical harm, physical threats, or other forms of illegal activity. I mean strictly and entirely the "vilification" to which you refer. I mean that certain behaviors that are NOT "climbing" should indeed be "vilified" by the CLIMBING community, such that people with a pattern of certain unacceptable behaviors do NOT enjoy the respect and "woot" of the CLIMBING community.
So, let's keep apples with apples and giraffes with giraffes, rather than to conflate apples and giraffes.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 25, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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Any proof a power drill is being used? Or is this "fact" assumed?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Oct 25, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
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A picture is worth a thousand words...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 25, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
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he may have retro bolted a few things also
"May" = he has admitted to doing it, and not admitted to many other instances
"Few" = dozens of routes, just in Yosemite Valley
If Erik had only nanooked a route, here or there, there wouldn't be a huge shitstorm over what he's doing. Just on this thread, he's been called out on over a dozen routes.
I find it surprising that so many supporters of Erik's retrobolting on this thread think that they can conjure a separate reality out of thin air, simply by making an absurd statement.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Oct 25, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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Make them stop mommy!!! Make them stop!!!!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 25, 2015 - 05:46pm PT
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The gym comes to aid climbing.
Woot woot
Wall camping adventure.
Everest was just the beginning...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 25, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
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Grow up. This thread could have been re-directed a long time ago if Erik's "friends" didn't feel so compelled to distract the whole thing.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 25, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
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much cluelessness I sense in you
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Oct 25, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
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One of the best free FAs I was involved in was the first known ascent of Valiant Flail To No Avail at the Riverside Quarry. We thought it to be 12a in the days before sticky rubber. It had all of one bolt, because that was all we could stand long enough to place! Now it's something like 11b ... with 5 bolts. Those who do it now are merely doing a mid-grade sport route. There's enough ego in me to be bummed that no one doing it now should even care who put up just another sport route. And who, having repeated it now, would have any major sense of accomplishment. That's the dark side of retro-bolting.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 25, 2015 - 11:01pm PT
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That's the dark side of retro-bolting.
Exactly!
It takes a route requiring commitment and adventure and converts it to an escalator.
Five bolts! I'm surprised nobody thought to bolt a set of stairs there instead; that would have made the route MUCH more "accessible!"
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 26, 2015 - 01:47am PT
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For all of Woot Boy's responses, the defiling of the Great Slab Route has yet to be addressed directly. If Eric could clearly annunciate how such a complete change in character of a route is logical in his head it would be greatly appreciated. Despite his terminal politeness, there is no escaping that 2 crux pitches were bypassed by a bolt ladder, and a stain of bolts were left along a mostly bolt free section of rock. I see no justification, and fear for other routes.
Way back before my time Jardine's name was mud for chipping the travere on the nose. The community judgement went a long way towards keeping other routes from getting similar "upgrades", and I hope the strong response here will help other's think twice before copying Sloan's aberrant behavior.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Oct 26, 2015 - 04:36am PT
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And, here it is in plain english fellas: If you've climbed a route several times, have talked to other climbers on the route while climbing it, and have decided that something regarding fixed gear needs to change, or that an added bolt may be necessary in a certain place - go for it and put that new bolt in. If you did your homework, like I have on most of the bolts I"ve added, folks will find your additions worthy.
What " homework " was exactly done to add bolts to the Great Slab Route?
What " homework " was exactly done to add bolts(chicken) to existing climbs to make it more easier for " shorter people "
It's aid climbing which is cheating to begin with. And I already know you won't answer any of the above 2 questions.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2015 - 05:53am PT
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that if when you are there on the mountain you believe that the bolts are not in the best place or disadvantage folks between 5'7" and 5'10"(most routes were bolted for folks 5' 10" and above. I've been trying to get this down to 5' 7". That still means that many shorter climbers have to use cheater sticks to reach bolts),
What are the ADA standards for bolt placement?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 26, 2015 - 07:21am PT
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Woot!
LOL!
Woot Woot!
Great Slab Woot?
Coots!
LOL!
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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Prepare for text walls.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 26, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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Wow, has anyone climbed Ten Days After since this thread started? lol, could've had a bunch of educated opinions about the op-ed by now.
I attempted it 2006.. winter send rope solo.. bailed due to huge snow storm
would love to get up the Ten days after route maybe sometime in the future
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 26, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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... by all means change the spacing or location.
Bad advice, and the reason so many people are fuming at what's going on here.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 26, 2015 - 09:38am PT
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Uncalled for RyanD. This is a serious thread and I think we as a community are on the brink of solving this crisis.
Oh sh#t, just checked the OP and first page, looks like we are back to square 1.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 26, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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Richard Jenkins/Madbolter1
You just can't get it right, can you?
You're told repeatedly. All you have to do is copy/paste, if you can't remember. But you just can't get it right.
You don't realize HOW thoroughly it destroys your credibility regarding "homework" when you continually can't even get a name right... when that name is HANDED to you on a silver platter. So, here it is again: Richard JENSEN. There is no "Jenkins" anywhere in the mix.
Your behavior on this thread is interesting.
Not even CLOSE to as interesting as your behavior. Wowwwww
Aren't you and Mark the first team to up the belay bolt standard on El Cap to 1/2" on your Ring of Fire route in 1996?
Yup, we were forward-looking back then.
That doesn't justify YOUR retro-bolting. So, STOP conflating your (at times) legitimate RE-bolting with your (NOT legitimate) RETRO-bolting!
Your comments about me not possibly being able to tell if the bolts on the Sea of Dreams were yours or not is comical
What's really comical is your insistence on the claim that we put in ANY bolts on the Sea. I'll say again: Ask Barbella and Brand what they observed, since they were side-by-side with us and about 100 feet away during our entire ascent. We did not add ANY bolts to the Sea.
I interviewed Mark Smith, recorded the interview no less, where we talked about that.
Awesome! So you can PRODUCE that recording. Let us ALL hear where Mark says that we added bolts on the Sea. You have NO such thing, and you WON'T produce it for us to hear.
Remember I lived/worked in Wawona for three years so I saw all of your and Mark's routes there(where they used the same homemade aluminum hangers).
You "saw all of [our] routes there?" LOL... ROFL!
So, the mere fact that you worked at Wawona MEANS that you saw all of our routes?
Seriously... what planet are you from. On EARTH, being in the same region does not equate with CLIMBING all of the routes in the region.
Did you do Bird in Flight? No aluminum hangers on that one.
I could mention others as well. We used some aluminum hangers, but mostly manufactured.
Relevancy? NONE, other than to point out, yet again, that you live in a pretty strange fantasy world, which you perpetually use to justify your systematic behaviors that MOST of the climbing community decries!
Now I realize that probably YOU are the one who retro-bolted the initial pitches of Bird in Flight. You see, WE did those 5.9 leads VERY run-out, using a couple of bolts and the odd trad-placement per pitch. The crux pitches are 5.11+ and also run-out. So, if you can't basically free-solo 5.9 onsight, you have NO business on the crux pitches.
But we went up there years later and looked up to see a whole CROP of bolts on those pitches, added later by "somebody" else... DUMBING down our route.
You? You wanna OWN that?
To answer your comment directly that NNL is no where near WOS - of course it's not, silly, my buddy and I fixed the entire great slab to Timbukktu when we were replacing the bolts on NNL(had a party with 8 of us, a campfire, and gin and tonics on Timbuktu!), so at the bottom we just rapped East and down the first pitches WOS.
So, you would have had to rap PRETTY EAST to catch any pitches of WoS. LOL
Whatever. Your point?
Speaking of Wawona Dome. Anyone climbed up there? There are some awesome(modern) sport routes.
There's also some awesome, run-out (or they WERE) NON-sport routes!
What you REFUSE to "get," ES is that MOST people in the climbing community do NOT agree that it's okay to "modify" huge swaths of EXISTING routes to suit your particular "comfortizing," pussifying agenda.
Your behavior in RETRO-bolting is unacceptable, non-respectable, and has NOTHING to "woot" about it.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Oct 26, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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OMG madbolter
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 26, 2015 - 11:11am PT
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You just can't get it right, can you? Interesting use of a statement followed by a confirmation question.
You're told repeatedly. All you have to do is copy/paste, if you can't remember. As you can clearly see, I have mastered the copy/paste method. We did learn this difficult method in elementary school.
But you just can't get it right. I'm beginning to think he just can't get it right.
You don't realize HOW thoroughly it destroys your credibility regarding "homework" when you continually can't even get a name right... when that name is HANDED to you on a silver platter. So, here it is again: Richard JENSEN. There is no "Jenkins" anywhere in the mix. Here I'm loving Mr. Jenkins use of ALL capital words. I'm starting to think if Eric Slone would just get his name right, maybe they could be friends.
Not even CLOSE to as interesting as your behavior. Wowwwww Notice the emphasis on the word wow, but failed to CAPITALIZE the word.
Yup, we were forward-looking back then.That doesn't justify YOUR retro-bolting. So, STOP conflating your (at times) legitimate RE-bolting with your (NOT legitimate) RETRO-bolting! The exclamation mark really strikes home on this one. Still think the caps are VERY helpful in emphasizing, but the ! is the cherry on top.
What's really comical is your insistence on the claim that we put in ANY bolts on the Sea. I'll say again: Ask Barbella and Brand what they observed, since they were side-by-side with us and about 100 feet away during our entire ascent. We did not add ANY bolts to the Sea. Pretty strong counter here and this Slone guy might have problems understanding Richard, cause he sure has to keep telling him things.
Awesome! So you can PRODUCE that recording. Let us ALL hear where Mark says that we added bolts on the Sea. You have NO such thing, and you WON'T produce it for us to hear. This is a real make or break moment for me.
You "saw all of [our] routes there?" LOL... ROFL!
So, the mere fact that you worked at Wawona MEANS that you saw all of our routes?
Seriously... what planet are you from. On EARTH, being in the same region does not equate with CLIMBING all of the routes in the region.
Did you do Bird in Flight? No aluminum hangers on that one.
I could mention others as well. We used some aluminum hangers, but mostly manufactured.
Relevancy? NONE, other than to point out, yet again, that you live in a pretty strange fantasy world, which you perpetually use to justify your systematic behaviors that MOST of the climbing community decries!
Now I realize that probably YOU are the one who retro-bolted the initial pitches of Bird in Flight. You see, WE did those 5.9 leads VERY run-out, using a couple of bolts and the odd trad-placement per pitch. The crux pitches are 5.11+ and also run-out. So, if you can't basically free-solo 5.9 onsight, you have NO business on the crux pitches.
But we went up there years later and looked up to see a whole CROP of bolts on those pitches, added later by "somebody" else... DUMBING down our route.
You? You wanna OWN that? Way too much for me to read, so no comment.
So, you would have had to rap PRETTY EAST to catch any pitches of WoS. LOL
Whatever. Your point? Oh sh#t, we have a LOL and a whatever!
There's also some awesome, run-out (or they WERE) NON-sport routes!
What you REFUSE to "get," ES is that MOST people in the climbing community do NOT agree that it's okay to "modify" huge swaths of EXISTING routes to suit your particular "comfortizing," pussifying agenda.
Your behavior in RETRO-bolting is unacceptable, non-respectable, and has NOTHING to "woot" about it. Woot! This was my first total quotation breakdown and I can see the thrill. It's kinda like sport climbing cause anyone can do it if they rehearse enough.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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When madbolter drops so far out of character and decorum as to call you a pussy you've really had to go out of your way to earn that appellation.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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I'd like to see folks talk better to each other, treat each other better. On this forum. I remember when the wankers on this forum all but repeatedly verbally raped Doug Robinson (who is a top notch human being and has been called the father of clean climbing) for going up and helping Sean whatshisname on 1/2 domes growing up route simply because they rapped in to find the top of the route and locate the best bolt placements. That embarrassing bullshit went for over 2000 angry vitriolic unnecessarily mean-spirited posts over and over and over. So I suspect that this thread will unfortunately drone on for close to that.
Edit: Burch- LOL
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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Damn, I wish Coz was still posting here.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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Hey Jammer, Have you ever posted one climbing related topic or photo?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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"When madbolter drops so far out of character and decorum as to call you a pussy you've really had to go out of your way to earn that appellation.
It was either that or another misguided reference to the Founding Fathers.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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The rancor on this thread shouldn't surprise me, but it does. I greatly aprpeciate Erik's work on the two Big Wall guidebooks, and I find some of his bolt replacement, particularly at anchors, laudable.
I can't support all of the retro-bolting, though. I've never done GSR, so I have no comment except to say that if anyone placed "chicken bolts" - meaning a bolt unneeded to support the climber's weight, but one which shortens the length of a potential fall - they've changed the climb by eliminating one of its essential elements, viz. commitment.
To my mind, commitment constitutes the single biggest factor in rating aid difficulty. Adding chicken bolts to an aid pitch strikes me as the same thing as chopping out holds in a difficult free pitch that was previously climbed without them.
Also, as a climber who stands 5' 4 3/4", I never considered adding bolts because I couldn't make the reach. First, I have used since 1969 an "extension arm" consisting of an old-fashioned Chouinard Cliffhanger seated in the pick end of a Yosemite Hammer. With that, I was able to make all the reaches in every bolt ladder I've encountered, including that on the Kor Roof and similar stretches. Also, long reaches provide excellent excuses to force my partner to lead the reachy pitches. Please don't deprive me of that excuse.
John
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Seems like the attacks on Madbolter1's last post are attacks on his style, not on his points. I would assume that's because attacking the points themselves is a lot more difficult.
Erik, I have no problems with there being sport routes (although I don't know why a sport climber would make the hike to Wawona Dome for sport route). Also, I'm good with bad bolts and good 1/4" bolts being replaced with beefier stuff. I should note that on Wawona Dome most of the few non-anchor bolts we placed were placed from positions where just getting in a 1/4" bolt was difficult. (Or perhaps I should apologize for being one of those "ground up" old-schoolers.) So if you want to replace in-pitch bolts with 1/2 inchers, we'll be better for it. Where I become troubled is when routes that required commitment become sport climbs. If there was only one route in world, I would be in favor of making it accessible to 5'5" climbers who are maxed at 5.8. Of course, there are countless options for everyone. So I'm saddened when bold and amazing climbs become clip-ups. The case I noted earlier (Valiant Flail) being a case-in-point. Almost every climb at the Riverside Quarry is now a sport climb. Could they not leave the few classics alone? The answer proved to be "no."
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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That Sloan can't/won't get the name of the FAist of Wings of Steel correct speaks to his credibility as Yosemite Big wall Guidebook author, his tenuous grasp of 'facts,' and/or the extent of his Passive Aggressive Narcissistic Personality Disorder...or vice versa.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Adding new bolts to existing leads simply to make them easier is ethically wrong.
it's very similar to chipping holds to make a free route go at an easier rating.
But it's clear that some people will use whatever justifications their minds need to do what they want.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 26, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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Is this thread about rock climbing? I'm not sure
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 26, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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Thanks, Mike. I would say the same thing about adding bolts to slab climbing leads. This, too, is nothing new. There was a Chouinard article in Summit in the early 1960's titled, if I remember rightly, "Are Bolts Being Placed By Unqualified Climbers?" That article's lead example was an addition of a bolt on the last 5.9 pitch on Coonyard, that we used to call "The Anklebreaker." That bolt was placed and chopped probably before 1964.
As for the new bolt ladder, if it is sufficiently far from the original route, I would have no particular objection, provided those using the bolt ladder understand that they aren't climbing the Great Slab Route done by Kor, Madsen and Schmitz. Frankly, I doubt that the addition of the bolts will make an historically obscure route into a trade route.
To me, it's like the "new" pitches above the Chimney of Horrors on the NW Face of Higher Cathedral Spire. They are sufficiently removed (well, maybe not that far removed, but sufficiently so) that one may still ascend the original route without the possibility of using the new route - and new bolts - as a way out of the two pitches they bypass. Also, in the latter case, they don't really change the difficulty of the route. If anything, they increase it because of the difficulty of the free climbing. Accordingly, I have no problem there. Now the ability to use big cams in the Chimney of Horrors, in contrast, . . .
John
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 26, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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Oh. Okay. Bagging on my style (or, apparently, lack thereof) is the level of "discussion."
NP, I have better things to do than contribute to a losing cause.
I had hoped that by systematically addressing the pseudo-justifications ES uses, he could be led to see that he has no justification for his retro-bolting. I guess I'm surprised by his narcissistic refusal to respond beyond, "Everything is good. Everything is awesome. Woot!). I shouldn't be surprised by the "rough crowd" the Taco Stand is. But it is clear from ES's non-responses and the sniping that there's nothing more to say here.
Just as with society in general, the relentless trend is toward dumbing-down in the name of "progress."
It's an all-you-can-eat buffet! Have at it.
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dhayan
climber
los angeles, ca
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Oct 26, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
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More please.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 26, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
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Why are SOME of you trying to make this about RICHARD MARKS?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 26, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
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I think Steve Grossman needs to tell us what he thinks!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
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The Sloan Empire Strikes Back.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 26, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 26, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
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Yer little mansy's a hoser...
Yer chum Erik's a poseur...
And a line that's Nanooked is forever a dozer...
Careful what you wish for Dreamgirl, as closer...
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Prod
Trad climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
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Hey Wade,
I'd recommend making your junk look larger if you're gonna wear that outfit in the future...
Nice poem Steve!
EDIT Well it was not really "nice", but very well put together.
Cheers,
Prod.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 26, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
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Who would have thunk it?
SG and me are on the same page.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
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The main trail to the base of the Nose was always narrow in spots.
We did litter carry outs on that trail and had to hold branches back and squeeze thru between trees in some places every time.
Then!!!!
One spring I hike to the base and it's like suddenly a 4 lane freeway wide.
Yowza!!!
I ask the climbing ranger if they widened the trail to make the litter carry outs easier.
He said no and went to go look.
LOL somebody did a major number there and it wasn't NPS .....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 26, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
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Only on this thread Dreamboy...
Give a Hoot Don't Pelut or whatever it is you called your observation climb in the Fishers is all about respect for the accomplishments of others isn't it?!?!
You and Mark as defenders of Yosemite traditional climbing values is pretty rich there Jensen.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 26, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
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^^^ It couldn't last for even a second. No surprise, I guess.
Edit: If you can do something (verbal) to bring ES into line somehow, more power to you. Very few "climbers" agree with his tactics.
Uhh... just try to stay on topics you actually know about, though, and refer to climbs that have actually been repeated. If you can do that, you have my full support to talk about ES's ethical violations. :-)
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 26, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
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Oh Boy, here we go!!!
Steve is in the house!!
WooT!!
(Yo Steve, Ammon climbed it....said it was hard....there was a movie...you were angry in this movie...)
Stop the drilling!!
There I have said my peace.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 26, 2015 - 06:28pm PT
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Ethical violation?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 26, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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^^^ I think that's what Steve would call them.
At least HE got my last name right.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 26, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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Oh. Okay. Bagging on my style (or, apparently, lack thereof) is the level of "discussion."
I think early on I bagged on Sloans terrible social tact. You too have terrible social tact. I might, too, but I think I'll try not to be thin-skinned about it.
At least HE got my last name right.
Low-T can cause one to be thin-skinned, I find.
GMavis
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 26, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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Low-T can cause one to be thin-skinned, I find.
Yeah. I'm getting older now. That's probably the problem.
Another problem is the misunderstanding of intent in posts. What is intended as a joke is not always received that way.
The biggest mistake in communication is the belief that it's happening at all.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Oct 26, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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Do you guys realize how little the opinion of SuperTopo forum members matter in the real live world of Yosemite climbing?
So, so, so little.
ST is very much considered a joke in The Valley.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 26, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
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COnfucius say: Valley considered joke in many subtribes.
(Honest sentiment here: no disrespect to you Mr. Hudon, nor to those who hold Yos sacred).
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 26, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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Do you guys realize how little the opinion of SuperTopo forum members matter in the real live world of Yosemite climbing?
Mark, your opinion and the opinions of at least 25 people I respect have sounded off on ST and this thread alone. All spend a lot of time in the valley.
Slander at the bridge is all that matters, check.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 26, 2015 - 09:24pm PT
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ST is very much considered a joke in The Valley.
People like jokes
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
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The art of how to make a monumental ass out of oneself, certainly is practiced to perfection by a few real life Yosemite climbers. Sh#t, they are only human after all.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 27, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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The Elephant's Graveyard for climbers
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 27, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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Hey
I may just jump ship,
Can you imagine
The world these kids get to live in
No risk of the gear blowing out
Super light stuff to take with if you need it
Then a zombie Viking hero who's done all the work
To go romp up stone and the smoke it glows in the dark
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 27, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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ST is very much considered a joke in The Valley.
Oh. My. God. When did that happen? Shocked. I tell you shocked.
Susan
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Oct 27, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Actually...It is just the regular posters that people in the Valley (probably on the rest of the planet too) think are a joke.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Oct 27, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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This part of the thread looks like nothing so much as a bunch of 12-year-olds desperately trying to define and enforce in-groups and out-groups.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 27, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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Whoopee!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 27, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
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This part of the thread looks like nothing so much as a bunch of 12-year-olds desperately trying to define and enforce in-groups and out-groups.
not true. This is a very serious discussion of ethics.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 27, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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If you pussies are too afraid to organize a beatdown I can call Vinnie.
He's been a little slow lately and he kinda owes me so I can negotiate
a good rate for his services...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 27, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
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ST is very much considered a joke in The Valley.
If Sloan is a Valley local, then who are the real fools?
From here, looks like the "locals" are too lazy to realize that someone is running around numbing down their rich history.
Yeah, make it so the Kor Roof can be climbed without a cheater stick by anybody 5' 7", Great Idea!
Looks like Sloan deleted his incriminating post where he said that everybody makes mistakes, and all you need to do is chop his 3/8" bolts if you don't like them, and move them to where it makes it easier for you to get up the root.
Or is that woot?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 27, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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Style doesn't matter any more. Climbing is just for getting into a good position to use your selfie stick to post pictures on FacePlant. Hard climbing is damn inconvenient.
Long live the via ferrata!
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 27, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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#Selfies4Life
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 27, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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Mark, your opinion and the opinions of at least 25 people I respect have sounded off on ST and this thread alone You're a small handful of mediocre clowns and you're full of yourselves.
Agree fully with Mark.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
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The anonymous internut nutcase JLP just called Ammon and mucci mediocre clowns.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 27, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
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701 woot drivel woot!!11!!
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Oct 30, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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just thought i'd put in my two cents here. i have done a lot of bolt replacement in the valley, on my own dime...just like erik has. some of my work has been on lurking fear, where there are 3/8" and 1/2" bolts on all the anchors. i also added a free variation with extra bolts on pitch 2. although i did not replace the dowels/rivets on pitches 4 and 7, i approve of their replacement so that free climbers can protect themselves properly on extreme ground. i don't see this as a dumbing down, i see it as modernization.
so, it seems like everybody on here has a pretty strong opinion on erik. personally, i consider erik a friend, and an ally in the bolt replacement department. erik, like myself, has given consideration to the masses of people now on el cap. it is freakin packed up there with the nasal congestion and salathe/freerider clogged with people. so, some extra bolts here and there can help with the congestion. there should be 2 sets of bolts and anchors for going up and down up to heart ledge and up to sickle so parties don't crawl over each other. hudon adding a convenience anchor on the freerider so that belayer and leader have a visual with each other is a typical example of extra bolts that do nothing to dumb down the route, but help with the crowds and contingencies of hard free climbing. sure, i did not need them, but if mark hudon, a hero and contemporary of mine sees fit to retro this, then i back him up.
having just finished the sea of dreams with paul gagner, i can tell you that those anchors suck, and that a young energized team would do a world of good to do some replacement up there.
the expanding anchor especially could use a couple of bolts. but the belay at the end of the to the tooth pitch is a natural belay that should not have bolts added, because, although time consuming, there is a good natural anchor there that could handle a bivy. paul and i added one 3/8" inch bolt on the top of the last A4 pitch because we had to bivy there and there were 4 bad bolts there and we needed something to sleep on.
it seems erik has really taken a lot of criticism from his efforts on wash column, which i do not know much about, and i am not commenting on here. but erik does get a lot of kudos from valley regulars such as myself for his efforts, it is mostly here on supertopo that he is exorcised.
although i am adamant against changing the character of a pitch by retrobolting the leads, there are some routes that need help. when i put up lunar eclipse and bermuda dunes, barbella and i were using cheap zmac rivets, and the terrible dowels that were common then. i hope that all these have been or will be replaced because they suck and barbella and i actually wanted to put in good rivets, but just did not know how back then.
so, just saying there is a lot of grey area here, and that special circumstances abound on certain routes.
my one pet peeve with erik on this thread is that he claims richard jensen added the bolts with alunimun hangers to the anchors on the sea...an action richard vehemently denies. and if richard, my new friend, says he did not add bolts or any holes on the sea during his 5th ascent with mark smith, then i believe him...and i'm not sure where this misunderstanding occured.
kudos for erik communicating on this thread when there is so much animosity toward him and his efforts. i hope erik, and others, will continue to upgrade anchors, and even add anchors to alleviate overcrowding. moderization might seem like a bad thing to some people, but this is not the sixties,and as long as everybody is respecting the first ascent enough to not add any holes on lead(except in the case of a compromised hole, or broken off flake) then we are not actually making the climbing any easier.
ciao, steve schneider
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 30, 2015 - 10:56am PT
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ST is very much considered a joke in The Valley.
ST is as diverse as the Valley. You have a lot of trolls and a lot of climbers with a solid resume, such as yourself, Mark.
Nice post by SS. I consider it a big service to replace anchors, or add bolts to an anchor in some cases. Adding bolts to replace rivets on variation for free climbing, makes sense. Adding bolts in the middle of sustained aid...nope - that would be dumbing down the route. Common sense guys...
Let's be happy there are plenty of lines that are suitable for all sorts of climbers.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 30, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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There is a range of opinions here on Erik, and I'm sure there's a range of opinions from Valley climbers who don't post here. Many people have expressed support for his efforts, while questioning some of his controversial practices.
It seems most people aren't opposed to adding bolts to anchors (on wall climbs anyway).
But what it seems most people are against and Erik is not as per his posts is:
changing the character of a pitch by retrobolting the leads
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Oct 30, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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If adding bolts to anchors is considered legit then the A6 grade is not possible...
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 30, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
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Out of over 700 posts on this thread, the best words are from the end of Ammon's of Oct 22, 2015.
Here's what "El Cap Pirate" said:
"We just want you to keep true to the hole count."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 30, 2015 - 02:48pm PT
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Steve, I much appreciate your "grey area" perspective, and I agree that there is such an area. I also appreciate your vote of confidence regarding my honesty.
I don't think that anybody here, myself included, is bagging on ES for bolt-replacement. I think that the issue concerns his quite apparent disregard for the character of (at least some of) the pitches he retro-bolts.
If you consider him a good friend, I take that seriously, because I have a lot of respect for you. My problem with him on this thread is that I have yet to see him even start to acknowledge that ANY of his tactics might be questionable if not downright odious. In general, I think that we don't want to see the character of pitches changed. He seems to refuse to acknowledge that point at all.
When you talk about transforming an aid pitch into a free pitch, and thereby improving drilled placements from, say, rivets to decent bolts, I certainly have a good measure of sympathy for that idea. But that sympathy wouldn't include bolting next to protectable cracks (even if the pro was sketchy).
I guess what I'm wondering regarding such transformations can best be cast this way. Let's say you have a formerly A5 pitch that by its nature is poorly-protected. You replace the few rivets with bolts, and it is still poorly protected. Great. I'm with you so far. But what if you now also say, "But those A5 seams won't take real pro, so let's add bolts beside the seams to 'properly' protect the free-climbing?"
See, to me, now you really are changing the character of the pitch. (I am here using the rhetorical "you" and am not referring to you personally.)
I well remember, for example, some really bold FFAs that Steve Wunsch did in Eldo because he worked moves far above really sketchy, tiny "pro" and refused to drill on what were originally aid routes. So, he stuck with the available "aid" placements and simply free-climbed the routes with "aid" protection, thereby not changing the character of the pitches. And that style (commitment to leaving the character of a pitch alone) has been repeated on many, many FFAs.
Drilling when "convenient" on free ascents of aid routes really does turn previously bold pitches into sport climbs, and, honestly, I don't respect that approach just to get a pitch to go free. I have no problem with "upgrading" any drilled placements to get a pitch to go free, as the placement of the existing drilling does go toward defining the character of the pitch. But it's a whole different thing to radically change the character of a previously bold pitch into a sport climb in the interests of "freeing" it. To me, at least, boldness is much more respectable than FFA.
I think that something like the intuitions I'm trying to express are shared by many/most that are bagging on ES. What's troubling to me in his responses is that he refuses to even ENGAGE in this sort of discussion; he avoids these core issues like they are not real issues at all.
Does this make sense to you? I'm not sure if I've well-expressed "the issues" as they matter to me.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Oct 30, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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richard, i think we are on the same page. i am against adding holes on pitches for free climbing unless absolutely neccessary, like one bolt i added on excalibur, and one bolt i added
on golden gate, with the permission from alex huber to only drill one bolt. if A6 means having bad anchors that could rip if the leader goes, then i call bs and say, let the belayer live.
but i think we need to see a standard on rivets that i understand among local lore to be either a "carrot" bolt that is a tapered down 5/16" machine head rivet(which i have never placed) put in a 1/4" hole, or a 1/4" split shaft buttonhead with a length of 1 and 1/4" to 1 and 1/2". placing bolts instead of rivets changes the pitch character, and is not cool in my book. i would give license to anybody qualified to fix any of the rusting time bombs up there. when bolts are added to pitches, i think a significant discussion is warrranted, and that acts should be transparent.
by the way, who DID put those stupid alunimun hangers on the sea of dreams. they are so wimpy that the hole has elongated on them due to stresses from hauling.
how do you spell alunimun?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 30, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
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I'm glad we're on the same page, Steve. And what you've specifically said sounds very reasonable to me.
A6 means having bad anchors that could rip if the leader goes, then i call bs and say, let the belayer live.
You and I both know that A6 doesn't exist. Ridiculous! I'm with you: Let the belayer live.
Regarding aluminum hangers, Mark and I picked up the idea way, way bitd from seeing them sprinkled here and there. Ours, though, were much tougher than the ones we saw here and there, which did badly elongate. Certainly they could never be as tough as good, hardened steel. But we started with 6063 angle stock. The stuff wasn't cheap and was harder to find, but it was supposed to be far tougher than basic aluminum angle or 6061. We placed a number of those at Big Rock way back when, and we observed them for years. Ours were not elongating, even on routes that saw a lot of falls. So, I think that they performed better than the others we saw here and there.
Point is that quite a few people were tying aluminum during the era in which Leeper and SMC were the primary manufactured hangers. At that time SMCs had a known problem with fracturing, and Leepers, while better in that respect, were very thin (damaging carabiners) and also fractured in some cases (Mark and I still have a couple of fractured Leepers, and we sent one to Ed for analysis at one point). So, quite a few people were making up alternatives from aluminum, and that era lasted for quite a lot of years.
Finally, it's actually quite difficult to determine who did what on a given route, even in the early ascents. On the SoD in particular, Mark and I counted about 300 holes, and obviously (being closely watched) we couldn't have possibly drilled even a significant fraction of them. We were the fifth ascent, so three other teams were up there between the FA and us... all respected teams.
Hmmm... various of the FA team members have stated that they drilled very, very little on the route, certainly not hundreds of holes. So, SOMEHOW literally hundreds of holes sprouted up on that route. WHO did all that drilling? There are various theories, but there is not a clear, widely-believed answer.
And this is a case in which you have a VERY small pool of suspects to choose from. LOL
In short, unless somebody flat-out admits to this or that behavior, it's pretty hard to say who did what on any route that has had repeats.
So, long and short is: Who knows? And, really, the subject is irrelevant, because the thread is about ES's tactics that he does admit to. And on those, there is a pretty wide-spread consensus that I wish ES would start to take seriously.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Oct 30, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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Beyer,Vidal and maybe even Klaus may disagree.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Oct 30, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
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I've been at a supposed Beyer A6 anchor. Wasn't A6.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Oct 30, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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Well said, Steve.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 31, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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Out of over 700 posts on this thread, the best words are from the end of Ammon's of Oct 22, 2015.
Here's what "El Cap Pirate" said:
"We just want you to keep true to the hole count."
drljefe came up with the best words IMO
Watching Tom bust a gasket crying “ISIS!” and sh!t while Woot Boy keeps barfing rainbows is just too much!!!
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Oct 31, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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Chuff, chuff, chuff your muff
Loudly down the thread
If you get butthurt
Don't forget the cream!
Chuff, chuff, chuff your muff
Loudly down the thread
Throw those who disagree overboard
And listen to the slander
Chuff, chuff, chuff your muff
Loudly down the thread
Ha ha, tooled ya
I'm a climber too
This is hands down the most egregious crime in this thread
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 31, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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thanks for that, clinker.
I had to find jefe's post just to read the whole thing. Couldn't help but notice Burchy ball cupping Jefe a few posts later. ;-)
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 31, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
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Erik's all like Hey gang Steve Snider said I was cool and do cool things.
But missed the part where Steve condemns adding extra bolts and retro bolts to routes. Two things that Eric has said that he has done.
Erik completely ignored Ammon's post where Ammon said that he f*#ked up a pitch on s Shortest Straw.
Erik should run for president. He acts just like a politician.
Edit. W00T!!!
~~~
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Oct 31, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
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Freezing Forum Topics That Degenerate into Personal ... Approval
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"Yer little mansy's a hoser..."
TRUE!! Anita and I are LOL'ing together over this one!!
Might have to open Bill Coe's much appreciated gift of '06 Piemonte Barbera, and it's not even Friday night yet.
Bill - what's yer username here? Plaid told me, but I can't remember....
Edit from Anita514: "W00t! W00t!"
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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We told you so bump.
First Woot Boy came for our aid climbs with dumbed down bolt ladders, aggressive ledge cleaning, bypassed pitches on GSR, and a bunch of folks defended him. Now he adds an anchor to Book of Revelation and the pitchforks finally come out.
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T R
climber
Ca.
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There's a fat new bolt on pitch 8 Zodiac, just after 5.8 crack, as you're getting into the corner. I remember it as being kinda tricky years ago but now, with the bolt, it felt really easy. Why is it there? There's natural pro.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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WOWWWWW!!!!
A great friend just forwarded me this fascinating thread on ST. I don't get here much any more, mainly due to the overwhelming negatism. I've done the same thing with DentalTown.com...constantly blows my mind not only how reasonable minds can differ (I have no problem with that, just surprises me) but now insanely negative and unreasonable so many can be. It's perfectly fine to disagree with someone...healthy debate is extremely valuable. But to degrade others in the process...and to be blunt, to be dicks about it...is something else altogether.
The subject of this thread is Erik...first I've heard of him. Sounds like he has put a ton of work and money into making routes safer and better for the masses. His posts are also shockingly nice, respectful, reasonable...AND POSITIVE!...some of the very few that meet that description.
I thank you for your hard work Erik...and I'm VERY impressed with your demeanor! Don't let the bastards bring you down!
Btw, there are some posts that I also found respectful and enjoyed. Werner, Hudon, Pete, Greg, shipoopoi, and some others. Still...pretty sad that the majority cannot hold a polite discussion...
Nearly forgot to mention...I've been an avid rock climber for 36 years, and am a corporate sponsor of both The Access Fund and ASCA. Climbed today and added steel captive carabiners to some belays at Frenchman's Coulee...
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Did you add those steel captives to new bolts that you added to the middle of the pitch, Hummerchine?
If not, you're not up to Sloan's standard. Not even close.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Hummerchine,
Sloan, the laughing Budda, is crapping our lunch boxes and proclaims his sh#t is full of nutrients. In the school I attended they tested us on reading and comprehension. Did you really read this thread?
There are a good handful of climbers hard at work replacing bolts and certainly we need more. The guys I know photo document what they do with bolt replacement, have labeled ziplock bags of hardware from each route, and keep to the hole count. Their efforts are much appreciated by the community. We DO NOT need Sloan to replace another bolt anytime or anywhere. This is the sad result of his actions. He could make this right. Don't get your hopes up.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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OMG...Spiny Norman, the thread you linked to was awesome! I fully agree that adding bolts to Book of Revelation was a mistake...and I couldn't help but notice that Erik wasn't saying much about it after the overwhelming negative response! A negative response that was not only right on, but awfully polite and reasonable! Heck...a person I won't name, who has posted tons of stuff I thought was just ugly and awful...posted the most well reasoned and non-ugly thing out there...yet still correctly disagreeing with what Erik did. Will wonders never cease...right on y'all! And Erik...jeez man...my last post I was defending you, I still commend you with much of what you have done...
But you can't just throw bolts in anywhere you feel like when you KNOW it's going to piss people off! I'm pretty open minded these days, but convenience bolts to aid climb on a VERY accessible and popular free climb part way up a pitch in Yosemite Valley? I mean...name a single person other than you who agrees with that? At some point you have to notice that at least 99% of people disagree with what you have done...you should have been the one to pull those bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bill's handle is 'couchmaster'
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
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jonnyrig - is another victim of Sloan- looks like he is having nervous breakdown..
Oh he is just joking and I can not get it?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Nov 12, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
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No soup for u
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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Nov 12, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
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Alas, no, Erik.
But do you still have any Glamour Marmots in stock? I'm looking for the one dressed as Yul Brenner in "The King and I."
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Nov 12, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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Yikes!
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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I'd like a WestWorld Yul marmot please.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 12, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
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I'm beginning to think the real Erik is more out of touch than Bad Acronyms version.
You victimized this route! Thanks?!
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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Nov 12, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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Oh, and Erik? PM me. I filled in for you during your absence on the other thread and feel some compensation is in order.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 12, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
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please everyone, clog that inbox with useless crap
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
Culver City, CA
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Nov 12, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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I'm collecting free climbing photos for my new Free Climbs Select book. Email me if ya got em!
How much are you paying per photo Erik? Or does free climbing photos really mean climbing photos, free?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 14, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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Kudos to anyone posting on this thread in a non-vitriolic manner.
I can't speak for everything Erik has done because I don' know everything.
I would like to state some things worth considering.
When a first ascent party does a route and places 1/4 belay bolts (usually in the past) or 1/4 inchers on bolt ladders, they are in no danger at all. Danger and risk are none of the point in that. 20 years later those bolts do become dangerous and if someone is willing to spend the time and money to replace those bolts, I support them doing so with bolts that will last longer than 20 years since they are taking the trouble now and who knows who will be up for repeating the task later.
As for using beefier stuff on rivet ladders... same thing... the FA party general knew they would be safe and some would hold falls, since they need to be replaced, it's not the end of the world to make them beefy and get the maintenance over with. It definitely not the crux or problem area of any route (unless that route has been neglected for years) so why get panties in a bunch about it. You could disagree but are you out there spending the time and money fixing this stuff? The doers turn out to be the ones who get to decide.
Changing the spacing of bolt ladders during replacement is debatable but still, it's the easiest safest part of any climb so I'm not going to quibble about it. Go fix a nasty bolt ladder your own way if you're willing to serve. Erik is often climbing routes numerous times to do this work and it is indeed, like it or not, with the intention to serve coming generations of climbers.
In fact none of this stuff (except if there's stuff I don't know about) is making the routes much easier or safer than they were for the FA party except to adjust for the fact of being able to support more traffic during this new era of climbing where crowds have become the crux of some trade routes.
We aren't going to agree about the fine points of route maintenance. I'm glad there are people doing it. If you want it done differently, go fix some stuff. I don't think Erik is going to rework any route that's already been fixed with non-ancient gear.
Peace
Karl
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overwatch
climber
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Nov 17, 2015 - 04:59am PT
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She is awesome, but why do they avoid the stern shot?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 17, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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quoting Karl
In fact none of this stuff (except if there's stuff I don't know about) is making the routes much easier or safer than they were for the FA party except to adjust for the fact of being able to support more traffic during this new era of climbing where crowds have become the crux of some trade routes.
We aren't going to agree about the fine points of route maintenance. I'm glad there are people doing it. If you want it done differently, go fix some stuff. I don't think Erik is going to rework any route that's already been fixed with non-ancient gear.
Peace
Karl
Check out the newish topo for slab route in Erik's bigwall book. Not only adding bolts to avoid A4 sections, one is called "EZ variation" if case the intent of the retro bolting wasn't immediately clear.
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overwatch
climber
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A sure sign of sociopathic narcissism.
Tom,
Thanks for taking the time to go back and forth with this seeming whacko. guys in the valley in position to do something really need to. and I don't mean violence I am talking about an effort beyond this forum to let people know what he is doing
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Tom that post was amazing........WOOT!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Hear, hear. I do have a quibble about:
Make all climbs "go clean" by bolting past cracks.
I remember in the early 1970's some talk about doing just that on all new routes, i.e. never place a pin. If it won't take a clean placement, use a bolt. Galen Rowell tells a story about the interview he and Steck did of Royal Robbins around this time, shortly after he "erased" the first few pitches of the Wall of the Early Morning Light. After Robbins finished railing against excessive bolting, Rowell mentioned that the East Side climbers were employing the "bolt rather than pin" ethic on their routes. Before Royal could respond, Liz said "Far out!"
Of course, for aid climbing, I'm with you all the way on the resistance to chicken bolts and bolt ladders.
John
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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I love that Erik bumped this thread
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squishy
Mountain climber
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I'm excited to hear what they think about the route, as it has garnered so much online controversy.
I love how he has tried to redirect the "controversy" to the route itself, like he created a new Wings of Steel, when in fact it's really the person, HE, who is the controversy, lol.
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overwatch
climber
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I love that Erik bumped this thread
Me too
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I remember in the early 1970's some talk about doing just that on all new routes, i.e. never place a pin.
If someone establishes a new route with no pins, no cams, one hand, eyes closed, whatever, that's fine. No problem. I don't understand why a bolt, instead of a fixed pin, is more ethical, or better, but the FA team basically has carte blanche.
Erik Sloan is not establishing new routes - - - unless you twist that concept to mean that Sloan is retrobolting existing, difficult routes to make them easier, and then renaming them for his guide book.
FA - First Ascent
FFA - First Free Ascent
FSA - First Sloan Ascent*
* This is the date when Erik Sloan retrobolted the route and renamed it, deluding himself that he is a pioneering mountaineer, and has accomplished a "first ascent" of some sort, to get his name in the guide book.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Erik must be psyched because his bolts allowed the team to go fast by flying up bolt ladders instead of working the slow aid...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sloan has no problem with pitons at all and drives iron on C2 pitches. Go back and read some of his TRs on well traveled routes. He is about the approach of least resistance whatever the technology employed and thinks that everyone should get in line with that mediocrity in their climbing.
Without technical challenge and problem solving what is the point of aid climbing really? The thrill is gone on a Sloan bolt ladder...Big Wall Buzzkill.
Keep telling him that he sucks and don't buy his guidebook or his corrupt rationale for character assasination.
If he moves forward with his free climbing guide undermining Cmac's livelihood then he is done here and has been warned about that choice of Woot.
Nice helping of Yellow Snow Tom!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sloan may want to patent his deflection method.
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overwatch
climber
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late night bump to keep him on the forefront the way he likes it. His "woot, me worry?"deflection method just makes him seem more nuts
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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What does free climbing Ten Days After go at currently?
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Dec 9, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
What does free climbing Ten Days After go at currently?
A0.
A1 if you are under 5'7".
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 10, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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It's not A0.
The new Climbing Rating System puts it at AS
AS = Aid Level of Difficulty: Sloan
AS is easier than A0. Mathematically, AS would be about like A(-3)
Notice that "AS" kinda looks like "A5" - - - woot woot woot
I just did an AS pitch. RAD! I'm totally bitchen! Put my name on a list somewhere on the internet!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 10, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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In other words, no one has done the route lately, and no one here has a clue about it.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Dec 10, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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Tom you crack me up!
WOOT to you good sir.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Dec 15, 2015 - 12:24am PT
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Erik, it really doesn't make you look good when you start a thread on Facebook talking about this controversy, all your peers and friends chime in to kindly ask you to PLEASE STOP ADDING BOLTS, and you just delete the entire post.
Why even start the conversation when you're not going to listen to anyone anyway?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 15, 2015 - 02:03am PT
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The MOST important thing is that the TREND of retrobolting stops NOW.
One guy, who is dysfunctional, is not the real problem.
The real problem is that Nanook, Doctor Dysfuncto, advises, and encourages others to drill, baby, drill.
When Erik Sloan retrobolts existing routes, other people might think that is acceptable.
And, then other people might retrobolt other routes, as if they are assisting the situation, and doing Sloan's Work.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 15, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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But he is good, said so himself. No one's advice or input needed.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Dec 15, 2015 - 08:17am PT
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^^^ What he said. Dick.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 15, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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Get involved. Get a drill, and get "involved".
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 15, 2015 - 08:21am PT
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Ammon - I deleted the thread on FB because people were using it to have an ethics debate, instead of going to the ethics thread it linked to to have an ethics debate, lol.
You really have no idea how ridiculous you sound do you?
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RyanD
climber
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Dec 15, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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Lmao
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 15, 2015 - 09:12am PT
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He is one guy who needs less time on the rock and more on the internet...please!!??
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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The Hillary step on Everest could use a few extra bolts with hand handles & footsteps attached to them to help the with the bottle neck there .....
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Dec 15, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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LOL!
Sloan is a relentless machine!
He gives zero F&$k's!
WOOT!
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Dec 15, 2015 - 10:03am PT
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"actions speak louder than words"
Like the actions of adding bolts mid pitch, and bolt ladders to get around inconvenient pitches, and the action of deleting a conversation about your actions once it turns on you and the actions of dismissing/ignoring opposing viewpoints, all of which add up to actions of setting a bad example for future climbers.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 15, 2015 - 10:28am PT
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Reagan, as Governor of California, unleashed a horde of mentally ill patients, out onto the streets, in the name of "free enterprise economics" to save the wealthy from "oppressive" taxes.
And now?
A sordid and vile spawn (process: insemination, birth and breeding) has been unleashed upon a hapless populace.
Sloan is now running WILD! By God, and no law to stop him.
As of right now, he's in Yosemite, going bonkers with a power drill.
Ronny, you dickhead C-list actor hack - you've screwed us all. F-U
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 06:51am PT
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Keeping it bumped
vvvvvvvv yep, you never know. There is no name to that game. Don't judge a book by its cover was never more true than when it comes to fighting
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Club
climber
Birmingham
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Dec 16, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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Just take him out. Seriously? Actually yes. Better than spreading the disease. Got a better idea?
Get with it; get involved. Woot Woot!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 16, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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Erik- Pull your head out of your ass and listen up. Your time on this forum and your term as geek celebrity guidebook author are rapidly coming to an end. Unless you actually engage here and change your behavior then I for one am going to make sure that Cmac looks after his own interests as a guidebook author and bans you and all of your poisonous BS from this forum.
I am quite sure that Donny Reid and Roger Putnam are also disgusted with your scene so there won't be another edition of the Yosemite wall guide much less anything new. Not a word from Roger in all of this discussion which screams volumes. I know that Donny isn't behind you as I talked directly with him about your activities and did everything I could to stop you at the outset.
Donny is one of the "old guys" whose high personal standards oppress you so deeply. Just admit it Erik, you have never been able to measure up to the Yosemite standards in any era so why not measure down?
That you are willing to invoke other Yosemite climbers in vainglorious support of you debauchery is truly sad but you are a drowning man. Up thread you chose to invoke Tom Frost by stating that he said that all aid bolts needed to be 3/8" and stainless. I asked him directly about that statement and he categorically denied having said any such thing. He did make such a statement about replacing protection and belay bolts which is sensible, of course.
Allow me to be painfully clear- Tom Frost is diametrically opposed to the sort of route alteration that you are doing by personally adding and upsizing so many bolts on existing routes as to diminish and alter their original character. Shame on you for your fecklessness and hollow desperation for position and recognition in the absence of real accomplishment or talent.
We who establish these proud and challenging routes and have done our best up there despise you for stooping so low as you have chosen to do in the name of community service and modernization. Leave Yosemite alone or at the minimum go bugger your own routes. Funny but I can't even think of one that you have put up...
You are happy that every belay on the Salathe is now bolted. When I tell that to Tom Frost it makes him very sad as that amazing crack system gave Chuck, Royal and Tom everything that they needed on the FA and delightfully so. If what you do directly and advocate for otherwise makes a great and proud climber like Tom sad then it makes a respectful man like me profoundly angry. If its action that you want then we will undo your foolish and destructive bolting even though it is truly depressing work and you have left a real mess to clean up and restore.
You are no different that a guy with a can of spray paint who desires to leave a mark as a vandal on this phenomenally beautiful landscape and world class climbing area. We as a community won't stand for it.
CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU DUMBASS?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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Ever more graceless. Your lack of self respect is even more distasteful than my compulsion to comment on it.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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^^^Oh man this is gonna be good...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:12am PT
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Erik- You put words in Tom's mouth that he directly denied when I asked him.
To take a shot at him and his relationship with his son is simply pathetic.
Tom doesn't support what you doing. Plain and simple.
The community is hammering you and yet you still try to act as the spokesperson that you are not.
Roger- Please post here as you aren't the one being criticized. Do you support degrading existing routes? Yes or no?
Go back to the Book of Revelations as you insisted you would and put your convenience anchor in again and see just little support the community gives you.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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For starters, Tom Frost fully supports the local climbing community changing things as we see fit. He told Chris Mac and I that when we went to him about adding a bolt or two on the NA wall. He said 'oh well we were just young guys that didn't have any idea what climbing would be like in the future, and you guys are going up there having already climbed these routes, with an eye for stewardship - You should decide what is best. Kudos to You!'. That's what he said Steve.
If Tom really did say this I'm sure he didn't realize the can of worms he opened... inside your head.
Erik, your ego is out of control! You need to listen to the majority of the climbing community and stop what you're doing. I don't know a single person who agrees with your actions 100%. That should speak volumes! It's not up to you to revamp the Valley, as you wish.
I'm seriously worried about you. I fear you have lost (or slowly losing) your mind.
How could you possibly justify your actions? The hypocrisy is astounding on SO many levels.
Edit- and why bring personal family information into this discussion? Totally LAME and unnecessary. You need to delete the personal info!!!
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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^^^
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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Erik, personal information about a family you have no business repeating has no value in this discussion. So LAME you would even mention that here. You need to delete it!!!!
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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You felt the need to discuss what you imagine to be someone's personal relationship with their own child.........you are a maggot of the lowest order bud.
I don't think you need fear any blanket party. No one would want to dirty their blankets like that.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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Hello all,
I refrained from stepping into this for a number of reasons. I do not have the time or emotional energy to get into ethical debates and there are few things I despise more than arguing over the internet. However, I am speaking up at this moment before anything I said by email or in person gets misinterpreted and broadcast.
A few weeks ago, a friend and I wanted to climb a wall on a potentially rainy day from which we could bail if the skies opened up. I wanted to climb something I had not been on yet and Ten Days After seemed to fit the bill. It had been quite a while since I had last checked Supertopo because I had grown bored with the forum and was too busy with climbing and work to diddle around on internet forums. I had forgotten that this route had contraversy surrounding it.
My aim with this post is simply to report what I saw. I am going to report it, without judgment. These data will support some of the ES detractor's points and contradict some others.
Each belay is 2 3/8" stainless 5-piece or wedge bolts. According to the FA topo, the 4th belay is the only one that has seen a single bolt addition.
All but three pitches retain their original hole counts. Pitch 4 has one less bole than it used to. The FA topo has 4 bolts, it now has 3. Pitch 6 had 2 FA holes and it now has one. Pitch 8 used to have 5, it now has 7. Over the past 28 years, the route has a 0 net hole count.
All lead bolts were 3/8" buttonheads or 3/8" wedge bolts with hangers. As the FA topo does not specify which had hangers on the FA and which did not, I cannot comment as to if there is a change. The FA topo does specify that 1/4" hangers are needed. This makes me suspect that these lead bolts have seen an upgrade in diameter.
There were accusations of bolting past 5.10 free climbing. I'm not sure I see where that could have happened for two reasons. 1) The FA grade of the route is 5.9 A3 and 2) When doing a speed ascent, I wear my free-climbing shoes and often free-climb past sections rated A3. If there was 5.10 free-climbing, I promise I would have not be standing in my ladders.
In sum, I found the route to be quite challenging and more enjoyable than I expected. Many of the fixed heads were in poor shape and I was surprised we did not pull any. The climbing was more physical and thoughtful than I anticipated.
Now, to address some of the concerns. All of the anchors are completely bomber and able to be rappelled off of. However, it seems to me like this was the case after FA except for pitch 4, which now has 2 bolts rather than 1. Adding this anchor bolt is certainly on the "schedule of offenses" but it is a lower-grade offense. With respect to increasing the diameter of lead bolts, I am of the personal opinion that, when the FAists were putting up the climb, a freshly-drilled 1/4" was as bomber as could be. Therefore, when it comes time for replacement, those lead bolts should be replaced with something that will hold up in the long-term, so the route falls into disrepair more slowly. This is, however, my opinion and not necessarily the consensus of the community. What is that consensus? I'm not sure we have a good response to this question. Regarding the added bolts on pitch 8: That's lame. I respect your opinion, Erik, but I personally believe the hole count of lead bolts should remain the same for routes of this nature. Regarding free climbing being bolted past? I am sure that did not happen to Ten Days After.
The previous paragraph states my opinions and is not necessarily a statement of community consensus. It is up to the community to decide on weather these infractions are grave enough. My personal opinion is that, with the exception of the added lead bolts on one pitch, this route maintains its character.
I refuse to participate in any name-calling or hateful dialog. I will respond only to questions about the state of the route and will not respond to pure slander. I consider Erik a friend and believe that if my friend does something that is stupid or misguided (BOR anchor? What were you thinking, dude?), the last thing you should do is scream at him over the internet. Also, I am speaking ONLY about Ten Days After and not any of the other climbs at question here.
All of the best to everybody,
Roger Putnam
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:05am PT
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Thanks for your input Roger Putnam ....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Roger - to be clear, and I am asking you because you appear to be the only person who has climbed this route since Erik rebolted it:
Apart from replacing anchor bolts, the sum total of retrobolting is two added bolts on Pitch 8, increasing the number from 5 to 7.
Is this correct?
Could you see precisely how and where the two added bolts were placed?
Thanks.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Dec 16, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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Erik, personal information about a family you have no business repeating has no value in this discussion. So LAME you would even mention that here. You need to delete it!!!!
It IS far beyond the pale and is even actionable. ES is stating as FACT rather than as mere opinion what is at best his own interpretation of family relations, and his "factual" statement goes to character, etc. of the participants.
CMac should ban this goofball once and for all, as this is not the first time ES has popped off with this sort of crap.
No loss to us, as ES actually refuses to engage in genuine discussion anyway. Instead, our attempts to discuss (which is really ALL we can legitimately do in an attempt to "reach" him) just feed his narcissism.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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;-)
...
In other news,
It's cool seeing Grossman and Jensen agreeing on something.
Somebody should sh#t on his ropes.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Dec 16, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Hey Pete!
To reply to your questions: Yes, there are two bolts on pitch 8 that were not on the FA topo. There also was one less bolt on pitch 4 and on pitch 6. There is one additional bolt at the pitch 4 anchor.
How/Where is another question. I cannot comment on the manner of installation as it was ten years ago, and I had yet to put on climbing shoes for the first time. "Where" unfortunately escapes me. As I said, I made this ascent to go have fun in the mountains with my friend, not to clear up an internet kerfuffle. I sure don't remember bolts being near anything that seemed usable, except for perhaps some really flared copperheading. That is speculation though and must be treated as such.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 16, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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"If its action that you want then we will undo your foolish and destructive bolting even though it is truly depressing work and you have left a real mess to clean up and restore."
While you are at it, could you please remove all the added bolts on Dihedral Wall? Todd Skinner added these bolts RIGHT NEXT TO perfectly good aid cracks, simply for the convenience of free climbing.
I queried Tommy Caldwell on these after his FFA of Dihedral Wall, and like the man opposed to capital punishment yet who stands in the village square to watch the hanging, he did use the bolts, although he did not add any of his own.
Thanks, Roger. From the sounds of what everyone was talking about here, you would think there had been a bolt ladder drilled next to a crack.
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klaus
climber
Slauson & Crenshaw
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolts to established routes
edit: ^^ btw, I did not call him a dick, there's a big difference. now go back to bashing Sloan
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
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a freshly-drilled 1/4" was as bomber as could be. Therefore, when it comes time for replacement, those lead bolts should be replaced with something that will hold up in the long-term, so the route falls into disrepair more slowly.
Makes sense. Is a 1/4 inch placed this year as strong as a 20 or 30 year old 3/8?
I pulled out a 50 year old 1/4 incher on lead this year, with little effort.
Eventually they are only good as decorations.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolt's to established routes
You know, perhaps you're right. I was taught never to say bad things about those who are deceased. They're not here to defend themselves. Not that you care.
Arne
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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Nice post rp3. Classy as always.
+1
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
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I had always intended to take Todd to task regarding his bolting on Dihedral Wall. There were perhaps half a dozen places where big ass 3/8" bolts were added RIGHT NEXT TO CRACKS.
For instance there are three or four bolts on the pitch above The Ledge, somewhere around 10. There are perfectly good sawed-off/offset pods in the crack, yet the bolts are a measured 16" to the right of the placements.
There is a famous shot of Tommy liebacking this pitch, with his finger in the pods, and if you look carefully at the photo, you will see the bolt out on the face behind him and to his right.
Sadly Todd died before I ever got a chance to talk to him.
Whatever Erik might or might not have done up on Washington Column - BELIEVE ME - pales in comparison to what Todd did up on Dihedral Wall.
Who else here as climbed Dihedral Wall? You will know what I mean.
Had I known the situation, I'd have brought up tuning forks. So as far as I know, the bolts are all still there. Someone needs to get up with the forks and a tube of epoxy.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Dec 16, 2015 - 11:30pm PT
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I had always intended to take Todd to task regarding his bolting on Dihedral Wall. There were perhaps half a dozen places where big ass 3/8" bolts were added RIGHT NEXT TO CRACKS.
For instance there are three or four bolts on the pitch above The Ledge, somewhere around 10. There are perfectly good sawed-off/offset pods in the crack, yet the bolts are a measured 16" to the right of the placements.
There is a famous shot of Tommy liebacking this pitch, with his finger in the pods, and if you look carefully at the photo, you will see the bolt out on the face behind him and to his right.
Sadly Todd died before I ever got a chance to talk to him.
Whatever Erik might or might not have done up on Washington Column - BELIEVE ME - pales in comparison to what Todd did up on Dihedral Wall.
Who else here as climbed Dihedral Wall? You will know what I mean.
Had I known the situation, I'd have brought up tuning forks. So as far as I know, the bolts are all still there. Someone needs to get up with the forks and a tube of epoxy.
Pete, do we really need to point out the difference between Todd and Erik?
And with bringing the deceased into it? And a true climbing spirit and pioneer?
Another new low on this thread.
I don't even like to post here anymore.
Erik
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
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I guess everyone else is wrong except Wooty and Mr. Pitons. Seems to me this goes beyond one or two routes.
Agree with Mr. E.
Mr. Skinner's (FLY ON) mistake on Dihedral Wall doesn't make Wooty right
Edit;
Sorry...Dr.Pitons
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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You're relating Todd Skinner to Hitler, Stalin and Hussein?
Man! He really must have been a dick to you
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spectreman
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 06:37am PT
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In my personal experience, Todd was a total dick to me and my partner.
Not hearsay, personal experience.
In my personal experience, Todd Skinner was exceptional and one of the most inspirational people I have met in my lifetime.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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you put the words in your mouth not me. maybe start your own thread about Todd Skinner and see how that goes
vvvvvvvvv plenty of written history about Mr. Skinners' transgressions. if I recall correctly there were many more comments praising as opposed to chastising
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:15am PT
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OK whatever. Most of us carry on some tradition through our walk; that's just one of mine. Aren't there real living people who might hurt from your valiant attempt to set history straight and maybe see you as a dick? Not that you care.
How bout back to the thread on topic?
Arne
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:31am PT
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The Dihedral Wall added-bolts are a little bit of dilemma in my book.
I don't think you're going to find many people placing sawed-off pins, while under full load in a 5.hard lieback. For me personally, I think free climbing is the pinnacle and vastly superior style than standing in ladders weighting your gear. But it leaves me conflicted, as I really don't condone changing routes/retro bolting.
So you have a bit of a problem - run it out? Pre-place the pins?
Then if you pre-place them, are you able to arrange adequate protection without filling the pods you need for hand/feet with pins/gear? And if you pre-place, now you are pink-pointing. You are also then encouraging future continued pin-driving/scarring which in turn can and does change the difficulty of the free route.
In lines that are more straight up and down, if you're pink-pointing anyway, you could always hang a really, really long sling off a higher piece (I do this all the time when sport climbing with kids, especially really young (read: short) kids who often can't make clips from the intended stances.)
But IIRC, the line of the Dihedral Wall angles pretty hard, making that option probably not viable on many pitches and on lines that are straight you then have to fight with the sling being in your way.
It's never black and white. How much do you value a free ascent or FFA of an El Cap route? How important do you place the redpoint v pinkpoint distinction and where does that lie compared to altering the aid climb experience?
Is there one, unbendable rule, or shades of gray depending on quality of the aid climb vs. it's quality as a free climb, how popular it is as an aid route? I don't know, probably need to take them case-by-case.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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I think free climbing is the pinnacle and vastly superior
Yeah
And then you have insane mad man (Jardine) who chiseled, and modified the rock to force it free on purpose.
On the Salathe many bolts were added especially on the headwall roof pitch to facilitate free climbing protection.
What's ironic is how all the focus on safety by adding bolts on the Salathe and then they tie off a loose boulder for anchor at the summit ......
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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El cap,
That is the post I wanted to make in rebuttal to the Dr.s' post but didn't want to spend the time. Thanks for that
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 08:27am PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolt's to established routes
That's fukn brutal...
EDIT:
You guys need to get back to bashing Sloan.
WOOT!!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Dec 17, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolt's to established routes
know what else? he didn't die a washed-up has-been weak troll on the Taco!
Skinner made huge contributions to all aspects of the sport: bouldering, sport, big wall and alpine. He was ahead of his time.
Sorry he added a few bolts that made you cry troll tears.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Dec 17, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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I knew Todd well, and he was a lot of things, but not a dick.
Maybe you are the dick?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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Yeah I never saw Tod as a dick ever.
I worked with him and helped carried his body down from the base in the end ....
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Rockies Obscure
Trad climber
rockiesobscure.com....Canada
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Dec 17, 2015 - 08:58am PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolt's to established routes
He certainly WAS NOT.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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He had some issue with my partner, and extended that feud to me.
I did nothing, and was psyched to meet him at first.
This happens all the time due to various circumstances beyond our control.
I'm also sorry this happened to you.
We ARE NOT saints ....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 17, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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I never met Todd. I never heard anything about what he was like either? Nice guy or dick. Irrelevant. We are discussion behaviour, not identity.
My point in mentioning Dihedral Wall is pretty simple, really:
Compared to the very many bolts that Todd Skinner added to Dihedral Wall - some of them amazingly and astonishingly right next to perfectly useable cracks! - the bolts Erik Sloan added to Ten Days After PALE by comparison.
You guys get all bent out of shape by two bolts on pitch 8? Well, you guys oughta go climb Dihedral Wall then.
Which begs the question:
Why no response to Dihedral Wall in the past when I have raised this issue? Is it more fashionable to attack Erik than Todd? No. It's because Church Bowl is right next to the road, and anyone can go look. On Dihedral Wall, you would actually have to climb El Cap.
Aside: the first pitch of Wings of Steel is clearly visible from the ground. You can see it's not a bolt ladder, far from it. Yet did anyone ever bother to make the less-than-forty-five-minute hike from their car to go look at it?
I had taken a number of pictures on Dihedral Wall, and I seem to have lost half of them in a laptop meltdown earlier this year. Cybele probably has them. Quite clear in my mind is the photo I took of Todd's bolt about a foot right of a PERFECT blue/green Alien I had placed. Of course, if you put a cam in the crack, you mess up a perfectly good fingerlock, don't you. If someone searches Dihedral Wall here on this website, they might find them somewhere under my posting. Or somewhere else on the web.
The anonymous but well reasoned Elcapinyourass raises some valid points, especially concerning the pitch above The Ledge, the famous one you see in the photos with Tommy liebacking the pods, and with the added bolts next to the crack. It would indeed be very hard to climb that pitch free without the added bolts, although I certainly didn't find it hard to aid climb.
But consider this: Alex and Thomas Huber have climbed rather a large number of free ascents on El Cap, and so far as I am aware, they did not add a single bolt to an existing aid pitch. [They may have added bolts on previously unclimbed sections] So one assumes that Alex and Thomas have climbed around many such difficult situations without adding a bolt.
For those of you unaware of this style of climbing, it is called climbing with balls. If you have balls, then you can run it out.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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It is called free climbing...you should try it again.
so there is really 800 + post thread about a guy who just put two extra bolts on one route?
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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Is it more fashionable to attack Erik than Todd?
Yes.
It seems so...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Erik -- "Folks like me and Scott Stowe ...."
Whoa .... I wanna hear it straight from Scott before I believe any of it ....
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 10:42am PT
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Pretty crazy since he must know that others know them as well
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 17, 2015 - 11:10am PT
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There does seem to be a warped ethic that turns a blind eye to free climbers adding bolts to aid climbs. I don't know why. I don't agree with it. I especially get irked when bolts are added to sections of an aid climb that have almost no chance of becoming even an occasionally repeated pitch. Often it feels like sponsored climbers are desperately looking for something notable for the rags to keep the sponsorship dollars going.
Overwatch, this thread got hijacked to cover a litany of sins committed, it goes way beyond Ten Days After. I personally have never touched Ten Days After, so I have kept my comments to mostly Mideast Crisis and the Great Slab Route which is right next door.
We have yet to see any coherent comments from Erik regarding his actions on GSR or MEC other than "Woot". GSR had an entire pitch bypassed by a bolt ladder, and Erik even documented himself smiling mid-atrocity. MEC suffered from aggressive ledge clearing in the middle of Pitch 7, way more than was necessary. One loose block posed a danger to being kicked loose, but a whole lot more got pried loose changing the look and feel of the pitch. Also no comments to justify from Erik.
Most of the climbers I know do their best to respect the routes and leave them alone as much as possible. For aid climbers this means avoiding the chisel or drill as much as possible, and embracing some risk as needed to proceed unless very necessary. Erik takes a proactive approach time and again, much more so than anyone else in recent history.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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thanks for the response Moof. I was being facetious or sarcastic or whatever it would be. I know damn well that all these people wouldn't be up in arms over two bolts on one route.
I guess it is some kind of tactic by Dr. Piton to deflect from the big picture
Edit;
On reflection I realized that people did just that with WOS
One big difference that I see is that the WOS guys defended themselves and their actions with diligence, not just trying to brush it off with a Woot!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 17, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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Why no response to Dihedral Wall in the past when I have raised this issue?
The devil's in the details. And more details are needed at least for me to form an opinion on the bolts added to DW. IMO the main travesty of retrobolting is diminishing the challenge of the route for future climbers. Not that there's simply a few more holes or bolts on a route. Chicken bolts affect the seriousness and challenge of the climb, it's not fair to future climbers to change the challenge that the FA left. Adding bolts which are necessary to allow free climbing are much different IMO than chicken bolts. necessary of course is subjective: could it be done as an R or X free climb without the bolts? What's the rating of that section vs. the crux/rest of the free climbing. If that section is NOT getting free climbed without those bolts at least for the foreseeable future, then that's certainly a big plus in their favor. Again I don't know the details, but to me they are not automatically wrong since that section can be aid climbed without them. While if bolts were added there simply to make the aid climbing easier they probably would be wrong.
It's almost like there are two routes there: the old aid route and the new free route. You can still do the old aid route, yes this is kind of the "if you don't like them, don't clip them" argument, but if there's enough info about the route, potentially someone could make that distinction.
But as DMT mentions you can put bolts in and you can chop them. That is perhaps a better measure of if the community thinks those bolts are acceptable, than opinions on a web page.
Add: also keep in mind Skinner's attempt was really near the beginning of big wall FFAs. As time goes on we develop more of a consensus of what is acceptable. As people realize these big walls can be free climbed, then naturally the desire will arise to do them in better style by not adding bolts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
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Another big difference is that we didn't do what we were accused of doing, while ES happily chortles (and Woots!) that he IS doing what everybody knows he's doing.
Another difference is that we were accused of "ignoring local ethics," while we actually cared VERY much for local ethics and conformed to them. We took the Bird and his approach very seriously. We were very aware and very concerned to adopt tactics that would be generally well-regarded as they became (truly) known.
By stark contrast, ES is adopting tactics that have NEVER been generally well-regarded. By NO mainstream ethic in Yosemite is the SUBSTANTIVE altering of the character of a pitch or route well-regarded or considered even "okay".
We can dicker 'till the cows come home about "if you drill, you fill" and those sorts of TACTICAL details. But there is really no STRATEGIC debate about the fact that what ES gleefully admits he is doing entirely pussifies the very nature of what climbing IS!
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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awesome posts you guys. saying the things that I didn't want to take the time or probably have the eloquence to say myself
I will do my best to help keep it bumped from here, the land of frost, Mesa, Arizona.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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From the sounds of what everyone was talking about here, you would think there had been a bolt ladder drilled next to a crack.
There is a retrobolted ladder, of this description, on the Great Slab Route.
Earlier in this thread, that route was shown to have significant retrobolting, including at least one bolt ladder to bypass an aid crack. Erik Sloan's new topo apparently describes the bolt ladder as a "variation".
What Todd Skinner did on the Dihedral Wall is equally reprehensible, and it possibly contributed to Erik Sloan's self-conferred right to drill all over the Park.
Discussing What Todd Skinner did isn't bashing him, any more than discussing how the Nose was first climbed would be bashing Warren Harding.
Getting Erik Sloan to stop is just the beginning. We need to also impress upon other climbers that drilling new holes on existing routes is not acceptable. If this nascent trend isn't stopped now, there will be a veritable pandemic of new bolts throughout Yosemite, and elsewhere.
When people see that other people are doing something wrong, and getting away with it, it makes it easier to rationalize that it's OK for them to do it, too.
As an example of this type copycat behavior, just look at all the spray paint graffiti in cites, and on railroad cars. Graffiti is so prevalent, some idiot thought it was appropriate to deface some rocks in Joshua Tree.
And, in Ring Number Three .. . . ..
It is truly astonishing that Erik Sloan continually claims that other, highly respected climbers (YMS, YOSAR, Tom Frost, Scott Stowe, etc.) are applauding what he is doing. This is like Jeffery Dahmer saying that Julia Childs and Wolfgang Puck applaud his Young Man's Thigh Roast recipe.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
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God damn man, good little belly laugh on that one. You are on a roll, sir
vvvvvvvvv MB1,
I did not mean to leave it unsaid in my post that you guys were vindicated in your claims as far as pretty much everyone is concerned
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
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That WAS hilarious, Tom!
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
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it is playing out there because they are poorly informed.
I have never even looked at that forum and I've been here at least 10 years... maybe more I don't really want to look back through my posting history to find the first one. even though my thousand or so post pales in comparison to some people that have been here as long as I have
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
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Too funny, Werner!
The Dihedral Wall added bolts present, to me, difficult ethical issues. As an example, the pitch above The Ledge was originally A4, and represented a real aid climbing challenge. In adding the bolts to allow the pitch to be decently protected in free climbing, you greatly diminish the challenge in aid climbing.
I think we all find free climbing a better style than aid climbing, but we old douchbags used to find fewer bolts better style - and better ethics - than more bolts. How to balance these?
With bolts, there's always been one other undercurrent: murdering the impossible, or, as Robbins put it, leaving some monuments to virginity. Free climbing the Dihedral Wall was a massively difficult achievement, but could the Hubers, say, have done it without adding the bolts? If so, should others have waited until they could climb it in their style?
This debate, now more than 60 years old, shows no sign of dying anytime soon.
John
Edited because if I spelled "douchbag' correctly, it comes out d#@&%ebag
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
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understood, thank you. perhaps some of the eloquent post from here could be posted over there?
well s h i t if the famous K weber says so then we should all just pack it up now
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Dec 17, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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With bolts, there's always been one other undercurrent: murdering the impossible, or, as Robbins put it, leaving some monuments to virginity.
Robbins also had some things to say regarding clean climbing and minimal impacts, something the sling and etrier crowd largely ignored these days. Bolts can be chopped and replaced, but the holds lost to someone's desire to drive some iron are gone forever. Until the aid community starts addressing this, they'll continue to lose supporters.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
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The flood gates are open and Sloan is one of many doing this type of crap all over the globe.
True, but the big difference between the guy you saw "tap one in" and ES is that the guy you refer too likely knew that he'd done something wrong and later felt bad about it. ES actually believes that he's setting some new standard that SHOULD be followed.
And THAT is what needs to be endlessly decried.
Werner: LOL!
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
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K Weber said on Mountain Project:
"I love the ST buffoonery but those old geezers are all keyboard and no action."
Sad truth is he has is backasswards. When the BoR bolts got the chop the pics were posted here on ST. They never made it to Mountain Project.
Its hard watching the debate there, most folks there are so poorly informed. Unfortunately that's where the conversation is actually playing out.
Not that the conversation here does not have value. In fact, the "goods" are here. MP just has a wider audience.
Don't what you've been reading, but it pretty much reads the same on MP as it does on here. A whole lot of people telling ES he's wrong, and one or two people saying he's not and that the detractors are has-beens, never-were, or don't climb in the valley. ST people are just yelling a bit louder than those on MP. Sounds about right with all of us old people and our hearing loss:)
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Dec 17, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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K Weber said on Mountain Project:
"I love the ST buffoonery but those old geezers are all keyboard and no action."
Can't say that guy is wrong. How many pages and still no parking lot justice? Bachar had the right idea.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 06:52pm PT
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Hey, we could sh#t on his ropes!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Bachar had the right idea.
Bachar had several right ideas. parking lot violence was not one of them.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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"Do your job Jesse and Ben."
Jesse is in TM and Ben left the NPS.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 18, 2015 - 12:41am PT
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Buffoonery?! GEEZERS?!
Look, you little turds over at Mountain Project, we are WAAAAAY more bitchin' over here at McTopo!
Why, I oughta ..... {clunk, bash}
Ooops. Tripped over my wheelchair. Sorry.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 18, 2015 - 03:37am PT
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BITD one had to actually go to the deli to watch climbers self destruct.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Dec 18, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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Bachar had several right ideas. parking lot violence was not one of them.
Maybe, maybe not? How many fools were still "woot-wooting" it up after a discussion with him?
Lord knows, having civilized talks with D#@&%eWoot is having such a positive effect.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
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Having been on the receiving end of a judge/jury mob-mentality, I'd strongly advocate not crossing over to the dark side.
If he can be photographed/videoed with a power-drill, that evidence is worth taking to the powers that be. His guidebooks and anything else he does for-pay can be boycotted. There are other creative things that can be done that are non-violent and legal.
In the end, though, if he doesn't give a rip about a vast consensus opposing his tactics, it's hard for me to see that there's any "winning" the "bolt wars." In this country, you are legally allowed to be a sh|thead in many contexts. And getting the powers that be involved in our internal community disputes will invariably bring scrutiny and regulation that we would be better without.
Just my opinion here. I'm not trying to pontificate, just urging caution and restraint.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 18, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
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How many pages and still no parking lot justice? Bachar had the right idea.
---
Bachar had several right ideas. parking lot violence was not one of them.
---
Maybe, maybe not? How many fools were still "woot-wooting" it up after a discussion with him?
Lord knows, having civilized talks with D#@&%eWoot is having such a positive effect.
As I remember it, Bachar was in no condition to w00t anything as he got knocked out for his lack of tact in the matter. Then he went to the Rangers. How are you remembering it?
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Dec 18, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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^^^^^^ Thats how I remember it. Somebody was CHAPPED
LOL
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 18, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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Hopefully any talk of violence or vandalism are just jokes or just talk.
It is a huge step from someone disrespecting a shared resource by adding bolts to going there.
Like I've said to my kids you NEVER have the right to escalate a situation into physical violence. It crosses a very clearly defined line, and you are pretty much always going to be wrong. Of course is someone else strikes first, then it's self defense and you are free to kick ass if needed.
The response for retrobolting is to talk to them (obviously a hopeless case with Sloan) and most appropriately removing said bolts.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 19, 2015 - 10:46am PT
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Weekend bump to continue the scorn
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 19, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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Hootie the Wood Owl sez,
GIVE A HOOT - - - DON'T DRILL. WOOT!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 19, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
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Ten years after we now have a 6 ft deep, horse shaped hole that has been beat into the ground, and a loco bronco on the loose.
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drewsky
climber
Seattle
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Dec 20, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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It's sad that this is happening in Yosemite. It's also happening all over at various climbing areas. Strangely, so-called 'stewardship' has become an excuse for all kinds of activities. At Index, our (smaller) granite paradise here in WA, it's been the cover for unnecessary vegetation removal and excessive bolting, to give a couple of examples. Any questioning of tactics brings the familiar ad hominem attack: "what have you done for the climbing community lately?" Excessive bolting, useless and excessive vegetation and tree removal: they're not public services and they don't count as stewardship! If I did nothing, it would be better than doing what someone like Sloan appears to be doing!
At least Yosemite has a large group of aware and concerned enthusiasts who will ultimately (hopefully) be able to mediate the problem. Another person at Index has within the past couple of years installed a via ferrata and, more recently, used an artificial hold on a 'new variation' to an older route. The only positive is that he wasn't positing his actions as 'public service', but without people to speak up against these issues they will continue apace. Sadly, too, it's happening everywhere.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 20, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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Sloan wrote
I'm not mad at you Steve. I appreciate your opinions. You just come off as extremely disconnected from the community here in Yosemite.
Hahahahahgahaha
Are you really that clueless or that completely narcissistic or just lacking in any sort if intellect?
I'm voting for all three as that's the only way I could see anyone justifying actions like yours with with your BS posts
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 21, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
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one step closer to bumping a gear review off the front page
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 21, 2015 - 08:45pm PT
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About damn time everyone is done hurling internet insults. I'll bump the thread in 10 years after again in 10 years.
Or something....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 21, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
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Sloan is still hurling insults...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 22, 2015 - 03:14am PT
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About damn time everyone is done hurling internet insults.
This is not about insulting Erik, the person.
It is about shouting out about degrading the climbing area with excessive drilling.
Erik is the Poster Boy for retrobolting, at this point.
Erik claims to have supportive minions, who agree with what he is doing.
This is not about Erik.
It is about a vast majority of climbers who do not want Yosemite to be retrobolted.
Erik is retrobolting, at will. We want him to just STOP.
This concept also applies to any other person with a wanton, reckless, irresponsible, and clueless drill fixation, to just STOP.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Dec 22, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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This spraying of bolts all over the place is happening around Salt Lake too; it sucks. You have routes that have been climbed thousands of times over the last 40 or 50 years - with not a single hole from base to summit - and some asshat comes along and goes, "You know what we need here is a few bolts." It's really depressing. I'll go ahead and take credit for being the guy who chopped the bolted anchor up high on the Nutcracker about 15 years ago for the same reasons.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Dec 22, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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Locker, sadly I am afraid to say you are right on this one…
This vigilante Sloan is waving his middle finger at everyone who has ever climbed El Cap or dreams of climbing it. All the while like some bizarre muppet creature saying, "Woot woot, Buy my guidebook".
Sloan is rewriting the rules of the game we have all agreed on for over half a century, one primarily being that if you can't do a route the way it was established, don't go up there. His actions point to mental illness and it is likely he truly believes those voices in his head are actually the community supporting his vandalism (he falsely calls it "stewardship"). If we are lucky he will be caught committing a crime (power drilling in Wilderness or doing aggressive trail work) and be banished from the Park. Unfortunately there will be another megalomaniac following right in his footsteps.
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661climber
climber
Central valley
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Dec 22, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
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Sloan, please stop.
Regards,
Everyone
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dec 27, 2015 - 07:39am PT
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BUMP :-)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Dec 27, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 27, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
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The blind leading the blind.
I can imagine what's next:
Erik Sloan's Nose Climbing Vacation Package - $666.00 free shipping
90 minute Sloans-Skills video, claiming to fully prepare you for the Nose
Sloan Woot-WooTopo - 31 oversized pages - showing every hold, placement and piss-stance
self rescue kit - power drill, bolts, and more bolts, and more bolts.
smartphone app - Sloan 'n' Spray - automatically posts selfies from the wall all over the internet
map to all the secret OB bivi spots in the Valley, plus other *insider* knowledge
handbook of useful translations for visiting climbers
a handful of free coupons to the Curry Village Diarrheum (receipts Sloan has pulled out of a garbage can)
A few excerpts from Sloan's translation guide (English to Sloaneze)
RETROBOLT = modern trad gear; gear placed by park docents; necessary safety gear; hammerless clean anchor or placement
RETROBOLTING = proper care and preservation of a route; performing necessary upgrades
RETROBOLTED AID PITCH = clean variation
OLDER CLIMBER = outdated artifact, found in museums; no relevance to modern climbing ethics
YOUNGER CLIMBER = instant authority on the sport; expert climber; rule maker
INEXPERIENCED N00B = potential client, esp. for unlicensed, illegal guides
HATED BY EVERYONE ELSE = loved and appreciated by the majority
STOP DRILLING = unknown, indecipherable noise; var. of start drilling? slab drilling? continue drilling?
DEFACEMENT OF EXISTING ROUTES = stewardship of the climbing area
CLUELESS MORON = the coolest guy in the Valley; the best; the greatest
SELF-SATISFIED = humble; non-boastful; quietly aware; admired by others
SELF-CENTERED = considerate of others; altruistic; generous; Ghandi-like
SELF-DESTRUCTIVE = respected and honored; admired within one's peer group; serene in one's path in the world
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Dec 27, 2015 - 06:53pm PT
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I'm very curious about the stated desire for a climbing camp.
Based on his prodigious, unregulated alteration of public resources, that talk makes me cringe.
I hope I'm wrong...
my post above is an exhibition of why Eric has no business going beyond bolt replacement. He has a disqualifying financial interest in any enhancements.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 28, 2015 - 04:05am PT
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climbing camp
Sloan is not going to listen, or adjust what he is doing.
He must be stopped.
This is the most absurd situation, in the history of Yosemite.
Thanks, Crazy Erik, for reinvigorating the Old Men.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Dec 28, 2015 - 05:51am PT
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I bet most of you guys have 'Silent Partners' and think they are the best solo aid device and best piece of gear EVER made.
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EP
Trad climber
Way Out There
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Dec 28, 2015 - 05:57am PT
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Anyone remember the metal sign at the Needles with the name Greg Vernon?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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Well played, PEnvy...well played.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 29, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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^^^^^^^^ For Pennsylenvy's video link +++++++
I'll repost it here:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 30, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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This thread just reinforces to me that we live in a time where you can do nearly anything socially without getting an ass kicking or hard consequence.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 31, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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Wishing each of you a productive 2016
Well thanks, hoss. It WILL be productive. I'm getting my tools ready right now:
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 31, 2015 - 10:03am PT
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What are the rules about power drills in the park? I believe that designated wilderness begins at 500 ft above the valley floor. That could possibly mean lower routes could use power drills.
I'm not campaigning for them. I'm old school. Just trying to see what the rules are.
He promised to replace the bolts on BOR if they were removed. Has he done that yet?
We had a guy, one of the main climbers in our area, go around and put bolts and chains at the tops of a whole bunch of trad routes. Some didn't mind, but others did. Prior to those lowering stations we just hiked down the back side or downclimbed a 5.7 or 5.8. It wasn't a problem. Those convenience bolts pissed off a lot of people, but they weren't removed.
The guy who placed them was respected, although his techniques weren't. A tough situation. First, you are friends with the guy. Second, you hate what he is doing. It all died away after a while.
Another time, a guidebook author placed chains over a dicy part of an approach to an out of the way area. There was one dicey move that you could do in your tennies, but the fall was a good 70 ft or so into a hidden chasm. Sure enough, one of his students went missing, and he drove up to find him dead in this spot. So he bolted a ten foot or so length of chain at the spot. We didn't like it, but it could have saved a life.
If you go placing bolts every place somebody gets whacked, it can get crazy. Josh goes through this. Look at Double Cross. I climbed it in my teens, and it was easy. I've heard that later, people got hurt on it and bolts sprouted.
I would rather have dumb dead guy instead of bolts on an easy route.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 31, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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Um, BASE? The Double Cross thing is a long-running troll joke. No protection bolts have ever been added to DC. If they ever are, they'll last a week or less.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 31, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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A few excerpts from Sloan's translation guide (English to Sloaneze)
Tom, you were in rare (and hilarious) form with that post, and that's saying something. :-)
My favorite (hard to choose among them) was:
RETROBOLTED AID PITCH = clean variation
Well done, sir!
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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What are the rules about power drills in the park? I believe that designated wilderness begins at 500 ft above the valley floor. That could possibly mean lower routes could use power drills.
Nope.
Bolting Policy & New Routes
The Rules:
Drilling protection bolts for climbing is permitted in Yosemite as long as it is done by hand. Motorized power drills are prohibited. The National Park Service does not inspect, maintain, or repair bolts and other climbing equipment anywhere in the park.
Beyond this simple rule, there is a strong community bolting ethic in Yosemite. If you plan to bolt a new route or alter an existing one, talk with local climbers who are familiar with Yosemite's route history and traditions before permanently altering the cliff face. No one wants to see the rock damaged by bolts being placed and chopped.
"Gardening" (the name given to removing plant life from cracks) is not allowed in Yosemite. Many climbers remove the occasional bit of grass or leaves to place protection or find a finger-lock, but this is nothing compared to the serious damage done establishing a new area.
New Routes:
The damage caused establishing a new route is far greater than that caused by each subsequent party. If you are considering establishing a new route ask yourself, "Is this route worth the damage it will cause?" "Is it a classic line that others will enjoy climbing, or I am simply interested in putting up my own route?" "What will climbers fifty years from now think of this route or this bolt?" There are thousands of established routes in Yosemite already--maybe try a few more of those before making a new mark on Yosemite's Wilderness.
The Reasons:
Most of the Yosemite's climbing areas are in designated Wilderness, and motorized items, including power drills, are not allowed in these areas. In addition to this Congressional mandate, the park has an interest in limiting the impacts from climbing while enabling climbers to enjoy the park. The resulting rule allows climbers the unusual privilege of permanently altering Yosemite's granite cliffs by adding bolts in the location of their choosing, but inherently limits the number of those bolts by requiring that they be hand drilled.
I will add that an old friend who is an experienced climber — and who is also a relatively high-level NPS employee stationed in Colorado — has assured me that a climber caught using a power drill in YNP is quite likely to be ejected from the Park and banned, perhaps permanently.
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 31, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
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Yosemite does not adhere to the same standards as other national parks do in terms of the wilderness act.
Yos pretty much ignores it in that they use and are reliant on power tools to keep the park running.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 31, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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Does anyone have proof wootboy is using a powr drill or is it just an assumption?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 31, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
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I believe that Yosemite NP can no longer ban undesirables from the park, owing to a successful constitutional challenge. Anyone know if this is true?
This is why Chongo can come back.
P.S. Happy W00t Year!
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
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Yosemite does not adhere to the same standards as other national parks do in terms of the wilderness act.
Yos pretty much ignores it in that they use and are reliant on power tools to keep the park running.
Google is your helpful assistant.
The Park's 1989 Wilderness Stewardship Plan states (p. 13):
Minimum Tool. The Service will use the minimum tool necessary to carry out management and research functions. These tools will be primitive and non-mechanized wherever possible. The tools in Appendix B are the only ones that are approved in the Yosemite wilderness. Exceptions must be approved in writing by the Superintendent.
There are very clear guidelines and no, YNP does not "pretty much ignore it [the US and CA Wilderness Acts]." If you think they do, I expect Earth Justice (formerly the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund) would be interested to hear about it.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 02:33pm PT
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Does anyone have proof wootboy is using a powr drill or is it just an assumption?
Multiple people on this very thread have said that they have personally witnessed him using a power drill in YNP.
These are not personal acquaintances of mine and I cannot vouch for them. Others here might be able to do so.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 31, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
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Does anyone have proof wootboy is using a powr drill or is it just an assumption
Wootard admitted as much in one of his posts, shown here on McTopo. His diatribe, that time, was to justify and rationalize power drilling as producing better quality holes, compared to hand drilling. He then posited a dementhesis that hand-drilled bolts were weaker, and even went so far as to pull a figure, "30% weaker", from out of his tuchus.
I don't have time to go back and find the reference right now. And the 30% figure might have been 35%, but that was the gist of what Sloan posted.
I wish Erik would get the help he needs to stop drilling. Clearly, he is like a drug addict, unable to stop himself from being self-destructive.
I am happy to hear that Chongo is allowed back in Yosemite. He is the King of the OB-DB boys.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Herein, Sloan unilaterally nullifies the YNP bolting policy:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/the-erik-sloan-ethics-thread/111301228__12
Powerdrills? Yawn. Same as Base Jumping, right? No one's doing it I swear. You guys are so silly - nearly everyone putting up routes here(and I'm definitely not putting up routes here) is using power drills. What happened to the thread on ST this spring where the title was 'I saw someone powerdrilling in the Valley yesterday'? What ever happened to that witchhunt?
The NPS going nuts over powerdrills is not the answer - forming groups to research and develop the best bolting practices and equipment is the answer. Just like pot - they're still going crazy about it here in Yosemite, but when I lived briefly in Colorado, people are like 'yeah, what's the big deal'(I don't smoke, so maybe an easy statement to make, haha). Witchhunts for pot smokers and powerdrillers will be later looked at like the NPS feeding the bears - better education is what we need. (I predict that future studies will show that hand drilled bolts are, on average, 25-30% weaker and less safe than powerdrilled holes).
More seriously: Anyone putting up new routes in YNP should be aware that E. Sloan has now publicly told the NPS that they are probably violating YNP rules.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 31, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
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Well thanks, hoss. It WILL be productive. I'm getting my tools ready right now:
+1 Elcap :)....Me too!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 31, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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^^ an anonymous avatar will NEVER do anything. Ever.
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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Dec 31, 2015 - 11:17pm PT
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I agree with Mike and Ammon as well.
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c wilmot
climber
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There are very clear guidelines and no, YNP does not "pretty much ignore it [the US and CA Wilderness Acts]." If you think they do, I expect Earth Justice (formerly the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund) would be interested to hear about it.
Actually they do ignore it. All those holes you see drilled into the rock on the trails?
Power tools
The trees you see cut on every mile of the 800 miles of trails in Yos
Chainsaws
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c wilmot
climber
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Does SAR hand drill their bolts during rescues?
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WBraun
climber
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Depends on the rescue.
If the bolts are required in a place that required climbing to get to, then a hand drill will be most likely be carried.
Generally if bolt placement is required a bolt gun will be used, (speed).
But generally gear placement and natural anchors are preferred and used.
Sometimes a bolt will added to gear placement and natural anchors for redundancy to the high loads put on rescue systems that require life support.
10 to 1 safety factor is the norm.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Actually they do ignore it. All those holes you see drilled into the rock on the trails?
Power tools
The trees you see cut on every mile of the 800 miles of trails in Yos
Chainsaws
Read more carefully. Chainsaws are specifically identified as allowable for use by NPS in the park's 1989 Wilderness Stewardship Plan I linked above. See Appendix B. Similarly helicopters are allowed in certain cases such as for rescue.
You may not like the policies but they are there in writing, right there on the NPS web site. And if the 1989 Plan, currently the controlling document for YNP operations in wilderness areas, violates either the US or CA Wilderness Acts, the fact that it's documented provides ample basis for a lawsuit.
Have at it.
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c wilmot
climber
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Does "primative" use include honda generators, roto hammers, gas operated pionjars, motorized wheelbarrows, moterized pulleys, and motorized water pumps?
(not to mention the explosives used in the back country)
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Again:
The Park's 1989 Wilderness Stewardship Plan states (p. 13):
Minimum Tool. The Service will use the minimum tool necessary to carry out management and research functions. These tools will be primitive and non-mechanized wherever possible. The tools in Appendix B are the only ones that are approved in the Yosemite wilderness. Exceptions must be approved in writing by the Superintendent.
Most of the tools you mention are specifically listed in Appendix B, right there in black and white.
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overwatch
climber
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Don't let reading get in the way of a good story, wilma
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c wilmot
climber
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That is how Yos defines the 1964 wilderness act under their wilderness management plan from 1989 .
Each park has their own interpretation.
In other parks chainsaws, and gas operated drills are not used in wilderness areas as they keep a closer adherence to what constitutes "primitive" tool use
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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The Yosemite ban on power drills is pretty clear. If he is using power drills, and others are as well, then they put the whole climber/NPS relationship at risk.
Yosemite isn't Rifle. It is a treasure. The best routes are cracks. Modern sport routes prefer limestone caves or overhangs, and those just don't exist in Yosemite. It will never be a sport climbing destination. The vast majority of routes are trad, even the bolted routes on the Apron.
One of our local areas is in a designated wilderness. The USFWS decided to ban climbing altogether. It was a huge blow, and took a lot of work and political wrangling to preserve. They allow bolts, but there is always a bolting committee that decides whether a new route is worth the bolts. Pretty much everything gets approved other than convenience anchors. If you can protect a tree by placing a couple of camo bolts, you will be approved. If you want to put chains on top of all of the trad routes, you will probably get a no. It is climber run, and the goal is to allow climbing to continue.
We came this close to losing the entire climbing area, but with a little back and forth, we came to an agreement that would allow climbing to continue. There are sport climbs, but it is mainly a trad area. It is the best area within a few hundred miles, so it is important.
We all, if we have been around for long enough, run into characters who really get off on placing bolts, and they often place them when not necessary. Today's climbers, most of which started in gyms, wonder what the big deal is. The big deal is that climbers have permission to drill holes into El Cap and leave metal anchors all over the thing. If that permission gets out of hand, then the permission of climbing can be revoked. Just look at what happened in Arches. Climbing there hangs on by a thread. You cross the river onto BLM land, and you can do what you want as long as the locals tolerate it.
No other user group is allowed to deface things in Yosemite. That includes carving your name in trees.
Someone needs to forward his statement on MP about using power drills in the park to management. The thing about power drills is that you can place a fat bolt in no time at all. Hand drilling is kind of a pain in the ass.
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WBraun
climber
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Someone needs to forward his statement on MP about using power drills in the park to management.
They already know for years.
You have to catch someone in the actual act to hold up in court ....
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Read more carefully. Chainsaws are specifically identified as allowable for use by NPS in the park's 1989 Wilderness Stewardship Plan I linked above. See Appendix B. Similarly helicopters are allowed in certain cases such as for rescue.
You may not like the policies but they are there in writing, right there on the NPS web site. And if the 1989 Plan, currently the controlling document for YNP operations in wilderness areas, violates either the US or CA Wilderness Acts, the fact that it's documented provides ample basis for a lawsuit.
Have at it.
Is really named Opie and has never broken a law in his boring life.
:(
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Someone needs to forward his statement on MP about using power drills in the park to management. The thing about power drills is that you can place a fat bolt in no time at all. Hand drilling is kind of a pain in the ass.
"Someone"... my f*#king god...
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overwatch
climber
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Dicky is obviously one of the nookettes
vvvvvvvvv some of his other posts made him seem like a supporter.
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MikeMc
Social climber
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Ehhhh Overwatch, I think he, (Dickly) is pointing out the "someone" part of the post, and how f*#king stoopid it is. Instead of saying someone else should do it, the poster should do it themselves if they feel so strongly about it.
Just my stoopid observation.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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If we could just get climbing outlawed, we wouldn't have to worry about any of this. it seems we are on the right track, let's make it a more public issue and raise awareness.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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^^^
Yup, I'm hoping Sloan sees that report... he still could turn around his ways
Or maybe forever turn to the dark side.
It's sorta like the dui affluenza kid.. he's in deep now
We've all screwed up, at least a wee bit... then maybe try and make better
Whoop!
Edit
Woops!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dang it, Locker!
You made me snort coffee out of my nose again.
Hurts!
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klaus
climber
Slauson & Crenshaw
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Retro- Poewer-Drilling bump for the douoosche
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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No doubt^^
I've met him a few times. They say narcissism is rooted in self doubt, or some such rot...I don't want him to agonize his conscience like Maesrti.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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just drop the "s" from https://...
the page may not exist anymore...
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Regardless of what wrong Sloan has done, the constant beratement and the subsequent resurrection of a thread just to continue said beratement really just shows a lack of class...
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
dedication to a cause!
LOL! Touche! :)
In all seriousness, berating someone isn't going to make them change their ways. People just like to have someone to bully...
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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i'm not berating anyone , nor am i calling for him to change his ways , i'm just sharing his share cause i think it's ridiculous .
Whatever you want to do, dude. Just keep piling it on. This whole thread is a beratement and your comments are a part of it.
Carry on
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John M
climber
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LOL.. yep..
not laughing at you by the way. Just laughing because it was pretty ingenious.
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