Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
other
Trad climber
LA, CA
|
|
Then open the discussion Jay.
"So many people already know the facts of the accident that it is starting to seem strained—perhaps even hypocritical—not to discuss the accident openly. At least some of us who agreed to keep the details confidential did so with the understanding that Wendell (or maybe Al) would explain what happened within a reasonable period of time after the accident. I think we're approaching the point in time where it would be reasonable for someone besides Wendell or Al to open the discussion."
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
"I respectfully disagree. We don't actually learn anything that way ...."
In general, I agree with what you said, Curt. I greatly value true-life stories with import as stated in my last reply.
For sure, there are reasons why there is not yet a detailed report. I do not know the reasons. I hope they do not warrant the report staying hidden. But our collective public learning through all the facts does not trump everything all the time - thank gawd.
And if there is never a detailed report then I think the folks involved need to eventually concede/allow speculation using the known facts. 'Speculation' is also another way to learn in deeper colors than the abstract general answer - even if the speculation is off the mark. This last part is no threat and can be taken at face value.
Bill
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
ONe of the repeating themes of this post is that we all loved Woody, we miss him, and we need a plan to get through this together;....I am finding that going climing seems to be a good way to piece it all together for me;....(Climbing seems to be a good " problem-solver" for me in many/most situations....)....After Woody's memorial last weekend....we went climbing....it seemed like the thing to do, and believe me, if Woody had been there in person other than in spirit,and it was someone else'smemorial...HE would have gone climbing........I'm about to go climbing today, with my buddies;...and I'm sure we will all be thinking about our friend as we drink our beers, hike forever to some low angle dummy dome, and do a new choss pile;.......just like what we did with Woody on so many a beautiful perfect Joshua Tree Day............So go climbing, and think of Woody;.....it's helping me alot anyways....
FA of Five Barmaids in My Pocket Tower of Power Queen Mountain, Joshua Tree
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
I think the person who will post the report, TGT, was actually there when then accident occured. Can you imagine what it must feel like to watch and see your buddy after an accident like this?
Wendell hasn't posted it for a reason. He said he will post it when he's ready.
Give him a break, show some respect to he and Woody and Al.
Wait for it and quit bringing this up!
I'm going climbing....
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
Naitch wrote: "Please do not withhold details in a pretense of protecting the primary victims. No one heals by sticking their heads in the sand by “protecting” the primary victims. Let us share, know, and embrace the details together in a respectful manner."
At going on three weeks, nondiscolsore is starting to drift into witholding, and the issue of "disrespect" is no where in evidence in any of these threads.
Woody Stark was a climber, one of our community, so lets clear the air, learn what we can, and let the thing be over once and for all.
Letting the thing drag out is not psychologically or spiritually healthy for anyone. People are buried. Lets view this openly and bury it - for good.
JL
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
I guess we're "vultures" after all...
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
thanks, locker.
you've been remarkably composed, given the circumstances.
i don't see the urgency that some of the other posters see. so what if it takes two more weeks before the NPS releases a report, which we then analyze and supplement with accounts from eyewitnesses and friends?
i don't foresee any gumbies lobbing off cliffs over easter break as a direct outcome of the delay.
and i have neither the training nor the temperament to speculate on the spiritual benefits of immediate posting for the friends and family.
|
|
Chris2
Trad climber
|
|
Accident analysis is valuable so that such accidents do not occur in the future. If there is no immediate danger, there is no need for immediate analysis.
As the individuals that are aware of the accident are experienced, people should feel confident that these individuals see no need for immediate analysis, and respect those opinions.
This is not only true to rockclimbing but all types of situations where someone has been injured or died.
|
|
nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
|
|
Matt said,..
"it wasn't you.
it wasn't your dad.
it wasn't your brother.
it wasn't your partner.
you weren't there."
"not everyone has it so easy.
i maintain that people need to deal with their sh#t.
they need whatever time they need to deal with their sh#t.
the time to share their sh#t is when they are ready to do so"
......
I understand and agree.... The week Woody died, Lars also died, my Uncle died and a Lovely girlfriend died. Life can be Bittersweet.......Peace.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Whatever comes out, and whenever it comes out, and whatever it says, I'd just like to point out that, after climbing for numerous decades, I don't believe there is any climber immune from making a fatal mistake or having a deadly thoughtless moment.
Some of us are just luckier than others.
Whatever happened with Woody, and whomever might seem to be to "blame" I don't believe in blame. Nobody's trying to hurt anybody so it's just our human slipup nature happening at the wrong time
Peace
Karl
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
Well said Fattrad.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
That is a rough week nita hope you are well.
|
|
TYeary
climber
|
|
I think Karl nailed it.
When the details are released, we will see nothing profound in and of itself. We have all been at the brink, sometimes not even knowing it, and through dumb luck or providence, not paid the ultimate price for our inattention to detail. I too await the report and Al's public recounting. More than anything else, it will begin the process of closure and healing for all of us.
Tony
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
The basic facts were described today in a series of posts on TGT (Wendell Smith)'s thread "The Lesson":
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=827432
Here is a summary of the details as I understand them:
1. Woody Stark led a 100' climb on The Great Burrito formation (Real Hidden Valley). He placed an anchor on top.
2. Al Kwok followed the climb, trailing a second rope for the third person (Wendell Smith). The second rope was attached to the back of his harness.
3. 65' (approx.) of slack in the second rope was pulled up, to prepare for belaying Smith, and a knot was tied in the second rope at this point (65/100). This knot was clipped to the anchor by Stark. Smith was tied into the second rope at this time.
4. Before Smith started climbing, Stark requested that Kwok lower him to the ground. At this point, Kwok probably believed that the second rope anchored him closely to the belay anchor, but there was in reality 65' of slack in between.
5. Kwok began lowering Stark. [Edit:] After Kwok had lowered Stark about 35', Kwok probably shifted his weight forward, expecting to be held by the second rope. Due to the slack in the second rope, Kwok kept moving forward and fell along with Stark.
6. Kwok fell 65' (approx.) and was held by the second rope at this point (the haul loop on the back of his harness was strong enough). [Edit:] During the 65' fall, Kwok did not lose control of the lowering device. Stark fell [Edit:] 65' to the ground, receiving a fatal head injury.
7. Smith untied Stark from the lead line, to relieve pressure on Kwok.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Thanks Clint.
You are a master at this ....
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
He is!
and vibes to you, Nita!
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
You pretty much nailed it Clint. Thanks!
Just a couple of additions. Al never lost control of the rope he was lowering Woody on. That's why it was almost tight between Woody and Al. The distance between them never changed from the initiation of the fall.
Al took the full force of the fall backwards, breaking ribs and consricting his breathing. That's why I had to untie Woody's end and get Al upright and on the rock, (he was hanging completely free over a slight lip).
I also had no idea at that moment what, if anything was holding the other end of Al's rope and expected him to come plunging won at any second.
After seeing the condition of Al's harness a week or so later, it may have failed if it had been fully subject to the impact of both of them. It was in bad shape! Burn marks and some stitching starting to break on the trail loop.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Thanks for the corrections, Wendell - I edited my post (and its copy in The Lesson thread). Hopefully people will consider the events in the accident and take more care in their own climbing to be aware of the ever present risks.
I have witnessed fatalities also, though not of my friends. Fortunately you acted quickly in spite of the shocking event and stabilized Al's situation.
|
|
jtanzman
climber
|
|
Early on, it was reported (somewhere by somebody) that neither Al nor Woody was tied-in to the lead rope. Later, somebody (Wendell, I think) clarified that Woody had been tied-in to the lead rope (and, as is clear now, was being lowered by it). What about Al, though? Was he tied-in to the lead rope while lowering Woody, or had he untied?
Jay
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!