Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
"Last weekend a tale was circulating around the park."
Yes, this is the problem - unless someone eventually steps forward and lets the truth be known, half truths and speculations will by necessity fill the void. We're going on a month now since the accident - a respectful interlude by any measure.
RIP Woody.
JL
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
John
I heard you already know all the details, so why not you start a new thread and give us what you know?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
A number of people are privy to the details, and though I tend to agree with John, I for one gave my word. And I believe that the general "lesson" already cited should serve.
While withholding the exact details doubtless gives rise to rumors and speculation, I hardly believe that even if every single minute detail was disclosed that it would hardly discourage people in the climbing community from engaging in rumors and speculation.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
From his posting history, I would guess that Woody valued facts over rumor.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
It seems there are only three ultimate truths.
The first due to Hillel several thousand years ago states "one should not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you."
The second, due to Werner, states "You got to let people be who they are."
The third is obvious and very old, you must not and you should not suppress availability of information.
We all found Woody an engaging and interesting person accepting the whole of him for what he was. That is not going to change.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
Werner wrote:
John
I heard you already know all the details, so why not you start a new thread and give us what you know?
-
I was told the details in confidence and I need to honor that.
Sunday will be three weeks so I'd expect something from the Park Service pretty soon if others don't come forth in the meantime.
Again, this is not so much a matter of learning invaluable lessons from some tricky technical snafu, rather, it's simply a case of letting the truth be known, difficult as that is sometimes. I'm not exactly sure what real purpose it will serve other than letting the business be over once and for all. So long as the details remain in the dark, the tragedy will keep stretching out, awaiting completion. IME, questions won't simply go away and people cannot be shamed or talked out of having them.
JL
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Edit: I started typing this post while the thread was on page 2, before JL's post appeared.
---------------------------------------
On Mar 16, 2009, 12:50pm, TGT wrote:
The newspaper article is a complete and total fabrication!
The Park Service has my written statement and that wasn't it!
If someone from the Park Service released that they should be fired imediately. If they did not the reporter should be.
A helmet would have made no difference. It eas an ynsurvivable and instantaneously fatal fall.
When it's time, I'll discuss it all.
Now ISN'T the time!
I'll take Wendell at his word that he will let us know when he feels the time is right.
I was hoping that after Woody's memorial would be a good time, but what do I know?
The fact is, the NPS will release a report––perhaps months from now––but I would much rather
hear it from Wendell, who was there. Here's to hoping we don't have to wait for the NPS report...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Sorry that folks are hurting from Woody's death and can understand not wanting to dredge up a what-happened kind of backlash.
Of course, Woody was tough as nails and could handle anything, but he's not here to handle it so it's up to his friends to figure out what to do.
Tough Stuff. Maybe it's best to get it over with while the good feelings about Woody with keep the discussion respectful but what do I know?
In any case, we'll all deal with the info out there, right or wrong, or lack of it, cause that's reality eh?
Peace
Karl
|
|
bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
|
|
I'm heading out to Joshua Tree in a week or so.
With 18 years of climbing under my belt, this accident scares the sh#t out of me. If it can happen to Woody, it can easily happen to me or one of my partners.
I have to say, I have a little trepidation lurking about my trip. Though I plan to use the obvious lesson...check and doublecheck both mine and my partners get-up....I am anxiously (in the true sense of the work) awaiting an explanation of what happened.
Perhaps only to exorcise my own demons, but knowing what happened might give me something solid to look out for to protect myself. Perhaps this is my own false sense of security. I am very unnerved by all of this.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
I would much rather hear about a bad accident from someone involved, or a friend, rather than some government report. I'd read the report, but from a 'receiving bad news' standpoint, it's more comforting to get it from a familiar face first.
Whenever that person elects to discuss this tragedy is fine with me. Woody is gone and the facts don't really matter to me. Reminds me of when I finally got to ask Bill about what happened to Walt. Doesn't bring them back. Super sad stuff but at least time helps buffer the pain.
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
I don't know the folks involved, directly or indirectly. But I can sympathize with a desire to withhold the facts while giving the general conclusion: "don't get complacent, double check everything." Only those involved can determine if this is how it ought to stay.
However, when I bring someone new to the base of a climb, I am greatful that there are things to say with more substance than "don't get complacent, double check everything." I can instead tell the story of some experienced, competent, and respected local climbers where the belayer sez to the leader on lead: "Oh shit! Hey Bob, get to a safe position. This belay device is not rigged right!"
And when I arrive at a pre-existing rap anchor with that new person, I am greatful there is something to say with more color than "don't get complacent, double check everything." I can instead tell the story of some experienced, competent, and respected local climbers where the pair tossed the rope for rappel only to see it, the rap rings, and the critter-severed rap slings sail off into the void.
Hardly anything makes the lesson stick more than a story with some life to it.
Respectfully,
Bill L
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Yes exactly BillL "Hardly anything makes the lesson stick more than a story with some life to it."
Everyone is so focused on death they've completely forgotten what life really is.
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
|
|
Between the eye witness account from the 3rd party on the scene, the girl who's belayer told her what she saw (both accounts on rockclimbing.com), the official report, and the warning here to check your belay system; we'd need to get into some theoretical physics to figure this one out. :O
Not that we're suppose to try, I know, I know, we're suppose to wait. :)
Anyway, I've read about Woody since the '70s, and I too am very sorry to hear about this. What I've always marveled at though was how safe rock climbing has been... as much of it that is done, and oftentimes by those without Woody's talent and experience, or even close to it... very few accidents happen. I know that is no consolation for those close to Woody... but hopefully everyone stays safe... that's always been my wish.
|
|
martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
|
|
Can we just end this thread? Enough time has passed to get the facts out which could hopefully help other climbers to not make the same mistakes, whatever they were.
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
"...I don't know the folks involved, directly or indirectly. But I can sympathize with a desire to withhold the facts while giving the general conclusion: "don't get complacent, double check everything." Only those involved can determine if this is how it ought to stay..."
I respectfully disagree. We don't actually learn anything that way. When all of the facts are known, the speculation about the specific series of events that led to this accident will end. That is almost certain. What we can collectively learn from this accident however (or any other accident) derives from the more difficult question of "why" this accident happened. "Why" is obviously the most difficult determination to make, but therein lies the additional contribution to our cumulative knowledge.
Curt
|
|
adam d
climber
CA
|
|
Clearly, those who know what happened feel they should not reveal it yet. Clearly they are not going to be swayed by requests. Clearly, they will tell what they know eventually. Is there anything else to say?
I feel for you Woody (and family & friends)
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
here's the thing-
it wasn't you.
it wasn't your dad.
it wasn't your brother.
it wasn't your partner.
you weren't there.
it's easy as hell to sit at your desk or at some coffee shop and check back to supertopo to see what's up in this thread.
not everyone has it so easy.
i maintain that people need to deal with their sh#t.
they need whatever time they need to deal with their sh#t.
the time to share their sh#t is when they are ready to do so.
your agenda is just that.
your schedule is just that.
selfishness comes in many forms-
as does compassion.
go watch some basketball and give it a few more weeks, what's the big deal?
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
Were you addressing that to anyone in particular?
Curt
|
|
jtanzman
climber
|
|
So many people already know the facts of the accident that it is starting to seem strained—perhaps even hypocritical—not to discuss the accident openly. At least some of us who agreed to keep the details confidential did so with the understanding that Wendell (or maybe Al) would explain what happened within a reasonable period of time after the accident. I think we're approaching the point in time where it would be reasonable for someone besides Wendell or Al to open the discussion.
Jay
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Let's just wait till the NPS report is released - it'll be here any month now...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!