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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Not that it may not have been a spin, but I saw a local news article a few weeks back where reporters interviewed a few people of the Over 200K group, and only one of them would see any tax change under the new structure.
A lot of people who feared for the increased tax were quite pleasantly surprised to find out it had been a false alarm.
Now - what to do about those boys crying "wolf?"
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jstan
climber
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"A lot of people who feared for the increased tax were quite pleasantly surprised to find out it had been a false alarm.
Now - what to do about those boys crying "wolf?""
I dunno. Maybe we just have yet another healthy forest.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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US Historical TOP MARGINAL RATE
Goddamm I say, Obama is almost as much of a socialist scourge as:
Wilson, Harding, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Regan, and Clinton who all had top margnial rates equal to or higher than the current Obama budget.
I always figured Eisenhower for a pinko fag, but even Ronnie Raygun was a closet Stalinist...who knew?
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andanother
climber
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TGT, that poster is hilarious. It's funny how conveniently forgetful the right wingers are.
It was OK for GWB to be the biggest communistic leader our country has ever seen. Why? Because he was white.
But when a black man suggests something even SLIGHTLY socialistic, suddenly he's evil!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The real socialists are Bush and the Republican House and Senate from 2000 through 2006.
They pushed through the largest tax cut, almost all for the already rich, in US History. That is class warfare and socialism.
Their naive and simplistic conservative philosophy of less government oversight and regulation over the housing market and derivative trading is the direct cause of the present economic collapse.
Their one trillion dollar diaster in the Iraq desert was more socialism for the defense industry.
We are now left to clean up the mess the children made.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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Really though, tax cuts are spending increases unless they come with a concurrent cut in expenditures.
If the Republicans want to cut taxes so bad, maybe they should be forced to give up some services from "thier" states?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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depends... how much self worth do you gain from your stock holdings?
If:
= None, then disregard any and all news events about the Dow...
= Little, then keep an eye on it, but know deep down there is nothing you can do about it...
= More than life itself, then find the nearest tall building, scale it... then jump.
Really though, if your stock holdings are long term then leave them in long term parking and forget about them until they mature.
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dougalclimber
climber
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ElCap, a picture worth a thousand words. Good work posting that.
Norton, all your comments have been spot on. It's heartening for me to hear someone who's made their living in the market who has such a good perspective on the big picture. I started lurking on the Taco as a way to get my mind off the market and politics. I thought I'd just look at photos of buff women a climbers, listen to yarns by all the climbing heroes here and watch vids of Chris jumping off stuff. Quickly found something way different going on here and have been sucked into the economic / political debate. It's been interesting to see the mix of views and many posters have spurred me to continue my own reading and questioning about the financial system.
Jstan, it appears that you've gotten some answers re insurance on the MM fund. I use Fidelity as my broker and have questioned them a couple of times re my core account. Can share what I learned via email if desired, but it looks like you're already up to speed.
And for those wanting more understanding of current crisis I'll put in my 2 cents for a book that someone else recommended a couple months ago; Kevin Phillips' Bad Money. Its lack of a bibliography is frustrating, but I think he gets the picture right.
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jstan
climber
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After listening to the econtalk podcast asking whether economics is a science I have concluded it is a "dismal science." To explain more I have to go back to infrared detector manufacture, about which I know marginally more. We all spend years in school learning all the laws of physics with a few retards amongst us also picking up some chemistry on the quiet. Some of us come to work at photolithographic processes while others work in material growth. Now here is the mind blower. What happens when the detectors stop working?
Those who feel most comfortable with the laws of physics as applied to crystalline solids feel that those laws are what are making the detectors fail.
Those who feel most comfortable with the laws governing surface properties decide it is those laws which are making the detectors fail.
No one is willing to say, I know all the laws but I don't know which of them are active here. We each just pick the laws we enjoy the most.
Every law ever imagined by an economist may actually be a law. But with possibly thousands of factors being important in any actual case
our chances of ever finding which law is active - is dismal in the extreme.
And since people do different things when their perception of the problem changes, the problem can change completely all by itself even while we are trying to figure it out.
Even if TARP was the right thing to do in October, there is no assurance it is the right thing to do in March.
I don't believe it was and to explain why I go back to detectors again. When a product began to fail I did not take part in all the theoretical arguments. I dragged myself through gigabytes of production and test data and tried to correlate it all with known process changes.
To solve complex problems you first have to accept they are complex, you have to go to the data and let that point to possible causes. In one case I found an extra 15 seconds in an etch step was a probable cause. On the day I retired some two million dollars later the manager who had authorized the change casually commented that I had usually been right. But not listened to.
Finally to my point. Among financial companies almost all the data we need is held as being proprietary. It is all kept highly secret. It is literally impossible even to get a look at the data. So we shuffle away muttering at how complex it is and how we need to act immediately.
Another failure. When a problem is huge and complex you cannot solve it as an undivided whole. You do have a chance if you separate it into its constituent parts, discover each part's dynamics and then look at the interactions between the parts. You almost never can do it in one fell swoop. And that's what we are trying to do. As I posted yesterday, the folks in Sweden are having some success by going in to an individual bank saying, "OK buddy. We are going to straighten you out now. When we are done you may or you may not have a way to make a living." This is much like the process the FDIC has long used.
Bottom line?
We aren't using our smarts. Great arguments between Keynesians and Friedmansians, assuredly. But that is all irrelevant. We don't have a clue as to which laws are operative.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Unless you work in the stock market or are looking at retiring soon and had too much of your portfolio in stock then I don't see a reason for fear. The stock market doesn't run the world, and folks shouldn't let it run them. Folks have survived for thousands of years without stock markets, folks have suffered despite bullish runs in the stock markets. I've seen my 401k drop, though not nearly as far as it did during the .com bust. But I did realocate most of my funds to lower yield "safer" funds about a year ago when I saw the writing on the wall on the market. I figure I'll just have to let it ride now, and don't expect a real turnaround for a few years, and a slow recovery.
For a long time I've percieved the market as not creating any wealth, but many people making money off of it. Just numbers on paper, no new industries or technologies that generate real jobs and real wealth. And when that goes too far, it crashes. It's like a cow, if you regularly milk it and take care of it, it'll make you a profit. If you blead it, you'll kill it.
I will say I am concerned about loosing my job, as our industry has slowed down and it shows no sign of picking up anytime soon. I'm not in the best financial situation, but will be able to shuffle some stuff around should worse come to worse.
On the up side, there are always opportunities, and several things I've wanted to persue but haven't had the time should my situation change.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The US by definition is a liberal democracy, in both political and economic terms. Strictly speaking, the economy is mixed - about 35% of the economy is government-related. As this illustrates:
 No, tax cuts aren't the answer to all problems.
Redistribution to the wealthy, as over the last 40 years, is still redistribution.
Yes, economic stability and equity probably lead to social stability.
Yes, what the Republicans say and what they do are two very different things.
Yes, economics is not a science, although it uses some scientific techniques.
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dougalclimber
climber
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Mighty Hiker,
I've been spending quite a bit of time on your side of the border recently, visiting a friend who's moving to an ecovillage near Chilliwack. Such a refreshing and hopeful contrast to the craziness here. You Canadians are keeping me sane.
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Binks
Social climber
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Except for some 401k balances that I can't withdraw, I'm out. I'm not getting back in anytime soon, if ever. All confidence blown. Let others play this fool's game (without my money).
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jstan
climber
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Jeff:
Most assuredly that is true. Then if this is true and cannot be corrected
perhaps we have found a fatal flaw in capitalism.
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jstan
climber
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Jeff:
I trust you are not still claiming your property there as your primary residence.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Capitalism only works if it isn't over-run with theeves. Same for communism, or any other ism. A certain percentage of the state actually has to produce goods and wealth, otherwise the whole system fails.
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jstan
climber
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Here there is a real difference of opinion.
It is pretty clear many believe capitalism works only if everyone is a thief.
It is called externalization of cost.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/adam_smith/3.html
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