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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 23, 2008 - 12:54pm PT
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Tarbaby, the worst part of it was that all the cowboy hats flew off. But this was before your time, at least for wearing ten gallon units.
This highly florid concept is just so much fun to work with, isn’t it? Love your quote and emphasis on the visuals that have been developed here, it’s high fantasy really!
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Nov 23, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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Why is it high fantasy?
Seems there is an eye witness report.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nov 23, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
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These scenarios add a new tilt to the term "blow job".
(Sorry, I'm a bad man, I know. Hadda nock that one over though, what with the set up and all...)
Please continue with the science stuff; I will refrain from goofing off.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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The air blast dissipates tremendously with distance... starting out as a shock wave, but eventually loosing it's energy to heating the very large volume of atmosphere engulfed in that rapidly expanding zone.
Reflections off of the two dominate surfaces: the land and the top of the atmosphere, channel the pressure wave, and it is measurable everywhere, but the mechanical effect is very very small.
Remember the image of Fermi dropping his pieces of paper at the observer's site for Trinity and calculating the yield of that test. No hats were blowing off, and you know the physicists were as close as they could convince the Army...
Seismic waves propagate through a stiffer medium, move faster and have less dissipation. Coupling the blasts to the geological structures in the Basin-Range, and having it move through those structures, would be the most likely mechanical scenario. But I'm no geophysicist... there is anecdotal evidence of significant ground motion (and building sway) from underground tests detected in Las Vegas, about 90 miles away from the National Test Site (NTS). So these tests did make the earth move, at least for some people.
Given that the "average" seismic activity probably is a factor in sweeping the teetering blocks at some point in their reduction of gravitational potential, it is possible that there is a slight reduction of such sweeping after testing ceased in 1992.
Unfortunately, I can be of no help for filling in the details, but do make use of many of the online resources to provide bounds in estimates of test activities, and don't be surprised if those bounds are not very restrictive...
I'd guess there is no way to really prove, or disprove Doug's original hypothesis, with or without all of the details.
An interesting speculation, though.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 23, 2008 - 01:26pm PT
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Well I can attest that BITD I climbed with a person whose flatus was of such a powerful and violent nature that large flakes would be caused to tumble from their perches as he entered the canyon and, while anecdotal, the evidence remains that we suffered no further loose rock in our forays.
But you don't want to share a tent with this guy.
Doug,
sent you an email, it keeps bouncing.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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Sorry, Ron.
My email's been screwed up for over a week. Talked to my local service provider Friday, but clearly I need to go back to them.
Apologies to anyone else who's been trying to contact me. Has the Taco become my last gasp of communication?
Doug
cell 831.234.0177
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 23, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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Got it.
Well the Sierra may have benefited from a little shakedown during the tests but downwind in southern Utah babies were being born with tails and extra arms growing out of their foreheads.
Pretty remarkable climbers though,..
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 23, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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Hey Tar, "refrain from goofing off" looks like a double negative--leaving 'goofing.'
I hope you mean it!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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Back on topic: Yes, I meant the air blast. Thanks to several of you for catching that.
I can't prove, of course, that the "rockfall from every peak in the cirque" that my friend eyewitnessed in 1952 resulted from air blast and not ground waves.
But here's the striking piece of evidence that came to me almost daily when I lived up there all summer during the Seventies: the sharp pressure wave on my eardrums every time a blast went off to the east. I'm not talking about the noise, but the pressure wave. Sharp, almost painful.
The noise itself helped localize its source. To the east, and pretty far away. You know how distant thunder retains only its deepest tones, and the noise gets fuzzy around the edges? No longer a distinct Crack! but more like a low rumble? Well these booms had that slight fuzziness, but retained the sharp pressure wave. I know that no thunder that far away would even reach the Sierra.
I figured big, conventional bombs. But I have no proof. Could have been sonic booms, I guess, which are famously common in rural Nevada. Or... just possibly some chicanery in Area 51, a little further east -- but let's not go there.
The point is that I was feeling significant shock wave, through air, from out in Nevada. And the source had to be a trivial piece of energy compared to an Atomic blast.
Anyhow, that's the experience that made the Atomic Broom seem a real possibility to me. I fully get it about the attenuation of energy of a blast as it spreads in the atmosphere. That only adds, however, to the "shock and awe" of the experience. I know, Peter, I know... But I'm not using language to dress up a theory here, but to try to convey to you guys an odd but repeated experience.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 23, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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This atomic broom theory may also account for the number of Mutant climbers appearing in that area in that time.
-I think we can just take That, as proven.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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Yep, darn hard to refute that one.
"Some circumstantial evidence is overwhelming, such as a trout in the milk." -- Thoreau
And the states of consciousness of the mutants, cause or effect?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 23, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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That's like asking what came first, the waves or the 'cid?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 23, 2008 - 06:07pm PT
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The truth can now be told.
We came to this planet to cleanse it of its loose flakes.
During our long, cold voyages between the stars we had often found worlds cluttered with choss, and sensed with our own visual receptors the stunted evolution of lifeforms who had kept well away from the vertical walls, in fear of the tragic, cosmic bane of rockfall.
But here, on your "Earth," we saw that at last the great evolutionary leap that would predispose humans to the vertical world - and subsequent mastery of both themselves and the universe - was on the brink of taking place, and that, as usual, no one guessed its importance.
So we got to work. Operative hybrids such as Einstein, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Robbins, Chouinard, Harding and the rest were emplaced to bring about the desired goals, raising both carbon and strontium ion concentrations and onsighting ability within a few short generations.
Our work here is done. We will return from time to time to check on your progress.
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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Nov 24, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
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which comes first, the colors or the patterns?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Nov 24, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
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First a light shimmering, followed by subtle patterns.
The colors kick in as the pattern frequency intensifies....
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Nov 24, 2008 - 06:41pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave
With respect to the ABT, it certainly is going to matter how far away, and how much energy needs to be dissipated.
I think the energy, and therefore the airspeed will decrease by inverse R squared once it decays from supersonic shock wave to just a sonic wave. (That is just my intuition though FWIW, which may not be much.)
Keep in mind also that the wind exerts very little force on cylindrical and spherical objects, compared to "squarer" objects.
The aerodynamic force is a strong function of shape. Sailors often say the "wind sucks" which describes the difference in pressure between the windward and leeward sides of a sail - they often oversimplify as well.
Look at post Hiroshima pictures and note standing telephone poles even quite close to the blast site. Or put a candle behind a beer or wine bottle and blow it out from the other side.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:08am PT
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Atomic Broom bump
believe it or not this is a decon procedure for troops exposed to tactical nukes during Operation Plumbbob
tactical (i.e., battlefield nukes) test with observers
things didn't always work out as planned...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Aug 17, 2010 - 10:59am PT
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The atomic broom is, in my opinion, unlikely. That anecdote I would consider more likely a coincidence than a fact, if true.
If you have any doubts, watch this link every day for a few years:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/
Every week dozens of earthquakes strike all around California on both sides of the Sierra. Most of these are greater in terms of release of energy than any of the bomb testing.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Aug 17, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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here's evidence that some of the east side earthquakes are really big ones...soft sediment deformation near Mono Lake likely triggered by a large earthquake
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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Could we get this "Atomic Broom" effect going here in the San Juan mountains? It sure would be nice to clean up all of this choss around here! There is so much potential just waiting to be trundled clean. They want to build a uranium processing mill in the Paradox Valley, maybe we could just open it up to atomic detonations instead!
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