Wings of Steel

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mojede

Trad climber

Butte, America

Jul 10, 2011 - 10:44pm PT

You are mad at them because God told them that it was A5 and sprayed the route for the almighty?

Sounds like a good summation from an outsider's view of what you're trying to say, Mimi...

Mimi

climber

Jul 10, 2011 - 10:47pm PT

mojede, how do you get from my posts to yours? Are you an insider?

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jul 10, 2011 - 11:02pm PT

The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill

...Calder

Mimi

climber

Jul 10, 2011 - 11:38pm PT

Coz, I honestly don't agree with about 90% of what you wrote. Based on what I recall about you, you hung out with Kurt and JB who had really strong convictions about climbing. You come across now sounding like you don't give a crap, yet you helped fuel a huge controversy around Growing Up.

Steve is on the couch and he'd like to tell you "I never chipped, chiseled, enhanced, trenched or chalked anything that I climbed on BITD and you should know that. A little cheating doesn't excuse a lot of cheating if you're not going to be honest about what you're doing."

My allegations are based on the voluminous information out there that others and the FA have provided. Hopefully, all this stuff will be put to bed very soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

MisterE

Social climber

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:33am PT

I frickin' love this thread - climbing in all of it's crazy idiosyncrasies lives large:

Right here.

Thanks to all for being your weird, wacky, convoluted-yet-iconoclastic selves!

Celebrate!

Mimi

climber

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:35am PT

LOL! Mr. E.

Thanks for posting the photos, Tarz!

Tarz

Mountain climber

Calli

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:44am PT

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:46am PT

Thanks, Tarz!

I'm pretty sure I could see an enhancement in one of those photos.

And there's a dimple on the dog's face.

Studly

Trad climber

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:46am PT

I'm smiling. Awesome photos. What a cool location.

Rhodo-Router

Gym climber

wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:47am PT

Actual climbing content us not permitted on this thread, Tarz. Sorry to have to tell you this.

Tarz

Mountain climber

Calli

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:48am PT

Thus my smiling pooch to take your mind off of it!

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jul 11, 2011 - 12:55am PT

That dog has definitely been enhanced.

MisterE

Social climber

Jul 11, 2011 - 01:23am PT

Great shots! Reminds me how much hauling on slabs sucks ass...

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Jul 11, 2011 - 03:37am PT

If you consider the amount of granite that's been chiseled, drilled, gardened, pin-scared, or otherwise trundled off of virtually every El Cap route ever done, is WOS even in the top 60% of rock damage out there? Could anyone else have climbed the route with less damage? Could any of the damage be seen from any other route or the ground if they didn't climb it?

I don't get where anybody has cause to grouse about the route in retrospect. Why not just admit you had a limited or wrong idea and let it go? After all, few climbers still revile Harding and his WEML climb or bathook ladders on many routes. We had many pages of debate about the South Face of Half Dome and none of the purists took issue with Hardings EXTREME enhancement of hook moves over there. Is it OK to drill bat hook ladders up Half Dome but not El Cap? (not that WOS did that?)

WHy hold on to a silly negativity when there is so little logical inconsistency to the whole complaint? All the enhancement required to climb WOS doesn't add up to 1/1000th of the amount of stuff displaced getting the FA of one pitch of Mr. Natural on the apron

Peace

Karl

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 11, 2011 - 03:48am PT

Corrected rotation of one of Tarz' cool photos.

Ryan Tetz

Trad climber

Flagstaff, AZ

Jul 11, 2011 - 04:10am PT

Congratulations! It's the first time you met with a troll.

If you argue with a troll, he wins. DONT argue with a troll. He will never stop, even if everyone is with you, and you are 100% sure that you are right.

I tell you, trolls aren't rare on the internet, since of anonymousness or wtf however they say it.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jul 11, 2011 - 07:15am PT

Coz, I'm a bit surprised at your comments up there, though I do believe that feeling mellow about current climbing controversies shows that we're growing up a bit (and also the fact that the old dads like us had their day and their say--recall our mantra back then: "you're only as good as what you did the day before").

First of all, having been close to both the free and aid camp 4 campers back in the 80's, I recall much more heated discussions on free standards than this current risible sideshow, with you generally in the center of it all (but of course with a passionate opinion based on perceptions of utilitarian good).

Second, I'm surprised that you had no idea of Grossman's standards back in the day. He was well known for being the absolute purist (both on free and aid, though in aid he was pushing the highest standards), and I believe he walked the talk, and in doing so, enabled many others to strive harder to respect the stones on which we clamber. And this is why he is so passionate today about this issue.

To me, the issue became more moot in the mid-late 90's when the momentum toward purism on the big stone aid routes reversed direction, when many new routes (often variations in reality) were established and reported as significant, even though they required well over 100 bolts/drilled holes to establish (i.e a very high drilled holes per pitch ratio).

Personally, as I have stated before, the route in question represents the ultimate in "artificial difficulty" due to it's z-macs and the prerogative of the FA's willingness to (apparently occasionally) enhance--these are things that make the second ascent harder, of course (Z-macs get weaker with time, and SA's aren't supposed to enhance when they get gripped or can't find an obvious placement). But these are things only someone who has actually spent a lot of time aid climbing would really understand, the fear of being only 15' above a ankle breaker ledge with a load of gear on your shoulders and dependent on the whims of a dicey piece of metal is a unique experience in the many variants of rock climbing.

Once again, I'm impressed with Ammon, certainly one of the greatest Yosemite big wallers of all time, for sacking up and going for the SA, especially under all this public eye.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 11, 2011 - 08:26am PT

Interesting....when this was first posted in 2005 a number of prominent wall climbers criticized the style in which the route was established. In 2011 Mimi does the same thing and all hell breaks loose- what gives?