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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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As far as the government goes, a marriage license is the same as a driver's license. The gov can't deny gay people a driver's license so the gov can't deny them a marriage license either. People don't understand the difference between state government and their moral or religious beliefs.
It seems to me that if the amendment passed it would conflict with the equal protection clause. Can a constitutional amendment be unconstitutional? That would undoubtedly be litigated.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Prop 8 won't outlaw gays getting married, they'll just have to marry someone of the opposite sex, just like everyone else."
That reminds me of this quote. "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread."
Remember the laws against interracial marriage? Black and whites could only marry someone of the same race, just like everyone else.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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I thought that it had been established that the Feds & other states dont recognise same-sex-marriages (?)
From Crusher's link:
Marriage vs. Domestic Partnership
Marriage: Legal Status, Recognition, Portability of Rights Universally
recognized in all 50 states. Includes more than 1000 federal rights and benefits.
Legal structure in place to dissolve marriages and divide property equitably.
Dom Partnership: Not valid outside of the state that grants it. No federal protections.
Legal structure to dissolve partnership not guaranteed outside of state. May be dissolved
without court ruling under some circumstances.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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"All men are created equal" is at the very foundation of America's laws and values.
Prop 8 is a great example of where that comes in conflict with longstanding traditions and people putting their religous teaching ahead of American ideals.
All Men was originaly white male land owners, but over time All Men becomes everyone.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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as a resident of Utah - I'm Disgusted with the Mormon Church here.
So Much Hate. So Much Judgment. And the complete lack of ability to think outside the herd - that terrifies me...
I've never met more 20 year old kids with 2 kids of their own - anywhere ever...yet they have the wontons to tell gays and lesbians what they can and can't do ?
Nothing is more disgusting that the Righteous imposing their values on others.
Keep in mind this is the same State Congress that Will Not list marriage as the Union of ONE man and ONE woman - right ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an amendment to define marriage in Utah to be mono and not poly was soundly defeated a few years back , no ?
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Shimanilami
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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From what I see, the only objections to gay marriage are religious ones. I respect a person's right to practice his own faith, but it is not his right to have government impose his personal beliefs - especially discriminatory ones - on the rest of us. If he wants the government to get out of the business of marrying gays, then government should be out of the business of marrying straights also.
Personally, I think government should issue "civil unions" only and leave "marriage" to the Churches to hash out.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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>>>the only objections to gay marriage are religious ones.
Seems to me that, from either side, its also a moral & social issue.
Which says what about your comment ?
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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weschrist, You do know that you can get medication in 3mos supply by mail-order, right ?
I'm ALMOST positive that not every person that disagrees with you is a religious nut.
Those people really make me uncomfortable. They're so xenophobic. snicker, snicker.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Marriage is all about inheritance, rights to property, and who has the power of attorney if you happened to be incapacitated,/ill, etc. The saddest thing I ever saw was during a hospital visit when I witnessed a man not being allowed to see his lover because he wasn't legally a "family member."
It didn't matter that they were living together for over forty years. He had no rights. He was left to wait for his lover's nephew to show up and get him in. The sad part is that his lover died while he was waiting outside the door.
That form of injustice is evil...
AF
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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come on pmb.
The righteous impose a law against murder.
You just want to pick the ones you agree with.
NTTIAWWT.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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"especially when "marriage" can be nullified with the stroke of a pen these days."
trust me, it's harder than that, especially with all the state regs. I been there no so long ago.
If 'the damn queers' would focus more on the civil union rights and less on marriage between gays, they'd attract more support. But it just comes off as an affront to the church and forcing society to accept what they want. 'Bigoted' calfornians have already said what they thought.
It's not really a gay thang, it's more...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10797630
Prop 8: California gay marriage fight divides LDS faithful
The church's effort against gay marriage is its most vigorous since 1970s
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Launched: 10/26/2008 10:24:20 AM MDT
PROPOSITION 8
Californians on Nov. 4 will vote on Proposition 8, which if passed, would amend the state's constitution to define legal marriage as between a man and a woman.
The LDS Church in a statement this summer urged members to support the ballot measure; the church since has encouraged active campaigning by members in California and until this week, Californians living in Utah and other states.
Californians Against Hate, a group opposed to Proposition 8, claims that 59,000 Mormons have contributed more than $19.15 million to the Yes on 8 campaign.
The thought of going to church in her southern California LDS ward makes Carol Oldham cry. She can't face one more sermon against same-sex marriage. She can't tolerate the glares at the rainbow pin on her lapel.
Oldham, a lifelong Mormon, is troubled by her church's zeal in supporting a California ballot initiative that would define marriage as between one man and one woman. She feels the church is bringing politics into her sanctuary.
"It has tainted everything for me," Oldham said, choking up during a telephone interview. "I am afraid to go there and hear people say mean things about gay people. I am in mourning. I don't know how long I can last."
The LDS Church's campaign to pass Proposition 8 represents its most vigorous and widespread political involvement since the late 1970s, when it helped defeat the Equal Rights Amendment. It even departs from earlier efforts on behalf of traditional marriage, in which members felt more free to decide their level of involvement.
This time, LDS leaders have tapped every resource, including the church's built-in phone trees, e-mail lists and members' willingness to volunteer and donate money. Many California members consider it a directive from God and have pressured others to participate. Some leaders and members see it as a test of faith and loyalty.
Those who disagree with the campaign say they feel unwelcome in wards that have divided along political lines. Some are avoiding services until after the election; others have reluctantly resigned. Even some who favor the ballot measure are troubled by their church's zeal in the matter.
"I do expect the church to face a high cost - both externally and internally - for its prominent part in the campaign," said LDS sociologist and Proposition 8 supporter Armand Mauss of Irvine, Calif. He believes church leaders feel a "prophetic imperative" to speak out against gay marriage.
"The internal cost will consist of ruptured relationships between and among LDS members of opposing positions, sometimes by friends of long standing and equally strong records of church activity," Mauss said. "In some cases, it will result in disaffection and disaffiliation from the church because of the ways in which their dissent has been handled by local leaders."
Robert Rees, a former LDS bishop in California, says he has not witnessed this much divisiveness in the church over a political issue in the last 50 years.
Whatever the vote's outcome, Rees says, "it will take considerable humility, charity and forgiveness to heal the wounds caused by this initiative."
Getting involved
Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, said L. Whitney Clayton of the LDS Quorum of the Seventy. "We love them and bear them no ill will."
Still, he emphasized that most Mormons in California support the church's efforts on behalf of the initiative.
"Our doctrine affirms that marriage is important to Heavenly Father's plan of action on Earth," he said. "It is the center of religion. We also believe [traditional] marriage is good for society."
In 1999, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints joined other churches in California to promote Proposition 22, which also prohibited gay marriage. Mormons canvassed their neighborhoods and completed other assignments in support of the initiative, which passed. The California Supreme Court overturned it in May, however, and the move to up the ante with a constitutional amendment took hold.
At that time, Catholic Archbishop George H. Niederauer of San Francisco wrote LDS President Thomas S. Monson enlisting LDS support for the amendment. Niederauer had a good relationship with LDS leaders developed during his 11 years as bishop of Salt Lake City, and Latter-day Saints enthusiastically jumped on board.
The LDS First Presidency announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every Mormon congregation. Since then, California LDS leaders have prompted members to sign up volunteers, raise money, pass out brochures produced by outsiders and distribute lawn signs and bumper stickers. Bishops have devoted whole Sunday school classes and the weekly Relief Society and priesthood meetings to outlining arguments against same-sex marriage. Some have pointedly asked members for hefty financial donations, based on tithing. Others have even asked members to stand or raise their hands to publicly indicate their support.
Gary Lawrence, writing in the online Meridian Magazine, compared opponents of Proposition 8 to those who sided with Lucifer against Jesus in the pre-mortal existence. Others have questioned such members' faith and religious commitment, accusing them of undermining the prophet.
Literature written by Proposition 8 proponents is freely distributed in Mormon wards, giving the impression the church approves it, but much of it is "misinformation," said Morris Thurston, an LDS attorney in Orange County.
Thurston has circulated a point-by-point refutation to an anonymously authored document that has been widely disseminated by Mormons, "Six Consequences . . . If Proposition 8 Fails." Thurston argues that most of its arguments are either untrue or misleading.
He welcomes critiques of his analysis, but some have been hostile and many question his motives.
"I feel like I am entitled to my opinions, especially when they involve legal matters," Thurston said, "and I don't think I should be compared to Satan's minions."
Thurston noted that the intolerance of contrary opinion seems mostly to come from some California leaders and members. "The general church authorities I have spoken to have been understanding and compassionate," he said. "They counsel respect and civility toward those who may disagree with the church's position."
Not alone
Many opponents choose to keep quiet at church, while seeking kindred spirits online. Several Web sites have emerged, including Mormonsformarriage.org, which give participants a chance to tell their stories, share their perspectives on the measure and swap information.
"We wanted to provide information and fact check the claims, and we wanted it to be provided by people who are still active and involved," said Laura Compton, one of the site's managers. "We get between 400 and 800 hits per day."
Compton's views are well known in her LDS ward, but she and her husband, LDS writer Todd Compton, have not been pressured at all. Their leaders have done a good job, she said, of keeping politics out of church.
She knows, though, that the conflict has taken its toll on California Latter-day Saints.
"Our wards are falling apart," Compton said. "But we still have to sit next to each other after the election."
It's especially painful for Mormon gays.
"How is the church going to minister to them when such operations are guaranteed to alienate them and their families?" Thurston asked. "Most of the gay members were orthodox Latter-day Saints in their teens and many went on missions. But eventually they found there was no place in the church for them and they went elsewhere."
pstack@sltrib.com
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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i think it is very important to deny people the same rights you allow others bases on their lifestyle decision and how your imaginary friends feel about it...
me - i believe in a higher power. i have a book that proves it. he fights for truth and good and wants us all to banish evil with compassion and love...and that man is...
...Superman
-The Good Reverend PMB
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WBraun
climber
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Yes yes, Superman.
The supreme being is Superman, yes.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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"Anastasia, I agree that civil unions should include those 'death partner' rights. But still call it a civil union...now with more 'inclusiveness' and newer rights."
Which is total BS. The people harping about not calling it "marriage" should be reminded that church and state are supposed to be separate. Using your view, in a heartbeat, I'd vote to have the word "marriage" removed from all laws and govt and simply have everyone in a legally binding civil union. If you want to be married, go to church.
Regardless, no matter how you look at the proposition, as it sits, it's discriminatory, bigoted BS.
edit: I especially like the propaganda ads being displayed on ST... You know, the ones that are absolute lies? "At least they agree on something..."
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Well, I just got back from the polls. Since I support Gay Marriage I voted YES.
Juan
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"the damn queers"
Is that really how you think of gay people, bluering?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"You know, the ones that are absolute lies? "At least they agree on something...""
Those are true. Do you remember what Palin and Biden said about their candidate's positions on this at the VP debate.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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It doesn't really matter what Palin and Biden said - While Obama does not support gay marriage, he is opposed to Prop 8 and has stated such time and time again. Again, propaganda. The ad portrays that Obama is in support of prop 8, which is not true.
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