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Double D
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:32am PT
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I've always been of the mind set to have all lines dynamic and leadable in a pinch. My hunch from reading about this tragedy is that the static line was probably a good portion of the problem. Although I've never jugged weighted lines, I don't think that's the main issue unless it was a skinny line (which it doesn't sound like from the accounts above).
This is the first time I've ever heard of a rope shearing under an ascender fall but 18' on a static rope is not a pretty sight.
My prayers go out to his family, friends, partners and the recovery crew.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:49am PT
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"We do not know how James failed to attach the ascenders properly, but we do know that he is used to using the new BD ascenders and for just that pitch he used the petzl jumars."
Was he using these Petzl jumars?
http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:01am PT
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Don't know Riley.
Since I'm a scared chicken sh'it, I keep one eyeball peeled on my juggs at all times, and on traverses all eyes,(I use CMI ultra ascenders), and use the mantra ...
If your number is up your number will be up.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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" .... but after he had released his daisy chains from the anchor ...."
Hummmmmm???
If he was using these juggs .... after releasing his daisy chains from the anchor he "might" have done what you just described Riley?
Again a speculation scenario if he was actually using those juggs?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:15am PT
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Here is my $0.02. My guess is that the rope sheath needs to have some measure of "looseness" for the teeth of the ascender to grab the rope effectively. If the rope and thus the sheath are under a lot of tension, then the teeth of the ascender cannot grab into the sheath effectively and the ascender just slips down the rope unable to get a decent purchase.
Bruce
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Oct 23, 2008 - 03:31am PT
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Condolences to his family and bereaved ones.
Regarding the supposed problems with the Petzl ascenders,
the complaint that has been cited (at http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/); is very
unclear and probably misleading at best. The core of the
complaint is the following statement:
"It is the protruding edge of this curved surface that
unfortunately forms an arc wedge with the elongated smoothness
and continuous angular position needed to induce lateral
displacement of the safety catch when it is moved upward against
a rough rock surface."
This statement is at best very unclear and terribly written.
Terms are not defined, and technical sounding words are used,
giving it a veneer of technical respectability. I find the
above quoted statement to be meaningless. I find it very
annoying that someone can complain, yet hold oneself to such
a low standard of clarity in articulating the core of the
complaint.
On a related note, I will say that the Petzl Ascension ascenders
are a common and widely used piece of equipment. Like almost all
equipment, users need to be careful, especially when jugging
fixed lines. It is not fair to simply blame the equipment when some unexpected and tragic accident occurs.
Andrew Barnes
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:48am PT
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We jugged the loaded haul line on the nose. We didn't have any problems.
Jugging a loaded line was discussed here a couple of years ago and I believe the conclusion was that it was safe (in a breaking way). The problems mentioned in this thread was at least not mentioned if I remember correctly.
"ames somehow malfunctioned the attachment of his jumars to the taught haul line, but after he had released his daisy chains from the anchor. He began sliding down the haul line until one of his jumars finally engaged some 30 feet later or so. There was a sheath piling found on the scene, so we know he broke the sheath first, initiated a sheath fall, and finally the core broke after the sheath fall ended and shock-loaded the system."
I have no problem in understanding that the rope broke after a 30 feet fall on a static rope (or on a weighted rope). A jumar is not design for this kind of falls.
The important question is way did the jumars slip on the rope.
My PMI's and also my clogg have round dents on the camming part that makes friction. Petzl jumars have more of downwards pointing tooths that should get into the sheet of the rope. The two types might give different results on a loaded rope.
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StephNV
climber
Elko, NV
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Oct 23, 2008 - 06:47am PT
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UPDATE -
I was able to get a message to Ken & Sue in Nepal - Thank you to everyone who offered advice and assistance. They are trying to get back to the US in time for James' memorial service. PLEASE PRAY FOR SAFETY ON THE TRAIL AND GOOD FLYING WEATHER IN NEPAL. Thank you.
Previously Posted:
Hi - I'm a friend of Sue Kennedy and Ken Hirst from Elko, NV. James was a friend and co-worker - we are devastated to have lost him. We are trying to contact Sue & Ken in Nepal via the US Consulate to give them the bad news and details of the funeral, etc.. Does anyone know what mountain(s) they were climbing or other details of their itinerary? Please call or e-mail if yes (775-385-7215 or alb_web@hotmail.com). Thanks for the help - Steph in Nevada
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Prod
Big Wall climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Oct 23, 2008 - 08:39am PT
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I'm confused,
According to Caveman the fellow in the picture in this article is a caver, not a climber as the title indicates.
http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/
Smartassness aside, this has been a very informative thread. I have jugged weighted lines a few times and it just felt like I was breaking some rule.
Sure would like to see some beta on this with different accenders.
Prod.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 08:50am PT
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Aren't all jumars known to "pop" every once in a while? Correct me if I'm wrong...
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 09:21am PT
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First my condolences to the friends and family of James Welton.
To add to the discussion, I had a problem with Petzl Ascenders slipping. I was jugging a dry dynamic line, somewhat taunt by a single haul bag. The ascenders were constantly slipping. At first we thought it was due to the coating on the sheath from the treatment of the rope to make it “dry.”
However, when I switched over and started using my friends Jumars, the jugging went fine.
Reading this discussion and looking at the link Werner put up, I have lost confidence in the Petzl ascenders. And disappointed with Petzl for not looking into this issue (if it is true that they have not).
So Domingo, this somewhat address’s your question. Two different brand ascenders, used in the exact same scenario. One brand slipped, the other did not.
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Prod
Big Wall climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Oct 23, 2008 - 09:44am PT
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I have both Petzls and Jumars. I find the jumars a lot more comfortable for my hands so I use them more.
One thing that I did find discerning about the Jumars was that sometimes the top biner from the jumar to the rope would flip in such a way that it would press down on the cam and disengage the unit from the rope. The first time it scared the sh#t out of me as I was jugging up a fixed line 15 feet out from the wall 700' off the deck. After that I watched it like a hawk. Anyone else have this happen to them? Any recommended fixes? I am going to mess around with different biners and see if I have any that can not get into this position.
Prod.
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Oct 23, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Does anyone have a good explanation of the difference between the tensile strength and the working load limit of static ropes?
For example this is from the Bluewater site:
Diameter: 10.5 mm
Tensile Strength: 7198 lbf.
Working Load Limit (WLL): 479 lbs.
Weight Per 100 Feet: 5.10 lbs
The working load limit is pretty low and easily exceeded with pigs and people working on the same line. Right?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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Tensile strength is the load/wt. applied that causes a material to break or permanently deforms. The term “safe working load” means the load that can be applied and still obtain the most efficient service and also prolong the life of the material in question.
All engineering applications work off a safety factor. An arbitrary number that divides the tensile strength by the safe working load.
That is how I understand it.
I am sure there is an engineer on this site that has the mathematical equation that Bluewater used to reach their conclusions.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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7198/479 = 15. That's the standard used for rescue work. Just a guideline, not a finite figure.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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Still uncertain of the exact location and whether there was a swing.
When he released from the daisy was it at a sling belay?
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headintheclouds
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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With regard to low stretch rope: generally a 15:1 safety margin is provided. Divide the tensile(7185lbs.)stregnth by the working load(479lbs.)and you get 15.
guess I'm a little late!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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I experienced the slipping of the Petzl ascender this summer when I used one on a couple of pitches. The slips occurred when I moved the ascender up quickly and tried to weight it immediately. (This is how I have used my old gray body Jumars for hundreds of pitches). Usually the Petzl grabs, but sometimes, if the frame is not aligned parallel enough to the rope, the cam is slightly open. Then when you weight it, it stays opens and does not grab the rope. There seems to be more play in the axle of the cam than on Jumars, which seems to allow this to happen.
I was not using a biner in the holes above the cam, but apparently this is required to prevent slippage:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/frontoffice/Sport/static/services/ASCENSION/B17_en.htm
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=123#
This was a version of the Petzl Ascension, but an earlier model with a metal safety instead of the black plastic safety.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/HECPages/HEC43.html
It was version A or B on the above page, not Version D which has the black plastic safety.
A few years ago, in Hetch Hetchy, I witnessed my partner slide down a rope and nearly die when his Petzls did not catch. However, we don't know the exact failure mode of this accident. He was following a traverse; one ascender may have been off the rope, and the other might have been prevented from catching if his adjustable daisy was caught between the cam and the rope (pure speculation by me, although a similar slip has occurred in caving when a glove got between the cam and rope). His adjustable daisies were burned in the slide, and probably were at least wrapped around the rope, which slowed the slide and helped him survive it. After the accident, my partner bought my backup pair of yellow-body Jumars and has been fine ever since.
[edited to answer Chris2's question]
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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There was some talk of this accident in the valley, a couple years back. Was it out at Hetch Hetchy?
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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Most of my wall climbing was done in the 70's, but I did one in 1999. I would never jug a line without tying in short on the rope I am jugging, which means it can’t be weighted. Am I so out of touch? Do people jug weighted lines routinely now? Do you at least back up the jugs with a prussik or klemheist?
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