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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Oct 24, 2008 - 07:33pm PT
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Damnit Ron, My political asperations are shot!
You've now told the whole world I like to dress like a 15 year old girl, and hangout with dirty old men while they video tape me!
I guess I'll stick to pumping Sh#t, there's a better future in it anyway!
EDIT: Wait.... I guess you didn't say anything about the video.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 24, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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Did you rally think that pumping sewage was an important credential for becoming a politician?
Wait a minute. I just realized it IS.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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Why are you people jugging a loaded haul line that's loaded on the teeth of a hauling unit?
Put a prussic below the haul unit when you rappel. The rope will then be loaded on the prussic.
Example:
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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Many of you know this, but clipping the top of a Petzl ascender probably wouldn't have done anything in this accident... the cam will still retract 100% with the biner in; the ascender simply can't come off the rope with a biner there.
If the case was that the teeth on his were retracted all the way and he had time to react to that, unfortunately, 30 feet does not equate to a lot of reaction time.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Like Werner and many of you, I'd never heard of this as an issue before, so thanks for the heads up Pete. Especially big thanks to Clint, for the explanation on how it can occur. I can totally see it happening if you are trying to rush and don't set the jug and it's canted a bit as you transfer your weight onto it (2 partners, can't slow them down) or just get in a groove.
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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Oct 25, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
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About the tech tip for using tiblocs while simul climbing; I wrote that piece years ago for Climbing Magazine in the context of alpine climbing, where falls will almost never generate high force factors and would be only for body weight falls for the second, essentially on top rope. I still think that's OK in low-angle situations, but that's probably all. Anything with teeth is bad news for anything more than body weight or bags or even the slightest shock loads. Combining haul bags and body weight onto teeth is bad news, so I'd agree that backing up jumars with mini-traxions or tiblocs or anything that has teeth should be avoided. Tying in short or backing up with gri gri's is surely safest. I've whipped huge onto gri gris while soloing, so it should work well to catch other types of falls as well.
I think these are all valid comments from everyone, and that we should give this topic much discussion. On the other hand, I think that if you act like every move and every decision on a big wall or even a multi-pitch line could be your last, then you while live long. I watched Drew Wilson fall to his death on an FA in Baffin Island in 2005. He rapped off the end of a 15 foot piece of rope when he thought he was rapping on a 60 meter cord. I am not accusing James of neglect whatsoever. I'm just promoting a sense of awareness that some climbers may not fulfill entirely, or that becomes secondary to the goals of a particular climb. Sometimes, it takes an accident for some people to think critically enough about these things. I have often thought that both James and Drew have given us all blessings in their deaths -- the blessing of hyper-crtitcal awareness that will make us constantly watch that jumar even though it's never slipped before on 500 pitches, or tying knots on the end of every cord that hangs into space. Gear is usually pretty solid but it won't save you when your let your guard down for just a second out of many days spent hanging on a wall. In the case of Drew, it was after a successful ascent that took us 18 days and was just hours away from touching down. For James, it was one week after his longest climb ever and his first grade VI -- the Salathe, and he died on a wall significantly smaller.
I've never been the same after watching Drew fall, and since then I've become a different climber; double checking knots way more often, tying a backup loop in addition to the belay loop, always being backed up while jugging, etc...it sounds obvious, but after my first dozen wall ascents, those things were far less important than they were when reading the "how to" books as a teenager.
I hope James and Drew can instill this awareness in all of us without us having to see another climber die in the mountains. I'm not claiming to be wise or talented -- I'm basically a chicken sh#t climber too. But in these cases, incredibly talented climbers were lost to mistakes that seem so preventable, including Todd Skinner. Often the head is in the right place for the leader but the techincal aspects are slightly overlooked for some reason -- the last time I was in Zion my friend miscalculated the swing on a basic rappell and broke his pelvis on Moonlight Butress earlier this year. It almost seems that more people are hurt or die on the more basic tasks rather than falling off Reticent Wall or dying on the Bacher-Yerian. Perhaps moments on the lead require that awareness, but rigging and gear management is more like a chore, where it is diminished.
As for objective hazards, that's where I start having issues about the whole climbing thing...
--Pete
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Ha. I was wondering about the source of that stat.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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I was wondering if the parts got hot inside that device on the way down.
You could check the ends of the rope for melting.
If they were really hot when it grabbed the rope, that could be a factor.
But not if it was just coasting freely along the rope.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
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It was a Protraxion that failed and led to this.
"On October 17, 2008, James Welton fell to his death while climbing the Touchstone route in Zion National Park. The National Park Service subsequently conducted an investigation into the cause of the accident in cooperation with the Washington County Sherriff’s office. Their findings have been released. The three-person climbing party had climbed three pitches (approximately 180 feet) without significant event. When the member leading the fourth pitch had reached the pitch’s top anchor, he tied the end of a rope into it. The climbing party’s gear, weighing 104 pounds, was attached to the bottom end of this rope, which was to be used as a haul line. The climbing partner then ran the haul line, which was also Welton’s ascending line, through a Petzl Pro-traxion device, a pulley which incorporates a cam allowing for rope capture as rope is hauled in. The climbing partner pulled 15 feet of slack through the Pro-traxion prior to Welton starting his ascent. The group planned to haul the gear to the top of the fourth pitch after Welton, the second climber, had completed his ascent. The third party member planned to ascend a second rope, the leader’s lead climbing rope. Welton’s fall occurred when the Pro-traxion failed soon after he started to ascend the haul line. The Pro-traxion operates with a cam and pulley mounted to a fixed plate. A sliding plate allows a rope to be inserted into the device. When the sliding plate is properly closed, a button locks the device together. NPS investigators were able to reproduce the failure of the Pro-traxion during informal tests when the device was closed improperly. They noted that the device could appear to be properly closed (but not truly closed) if the device was weighted prior to the side plate sliding into place. When improperly closed, the device can deform when weighted, causing rope to move rapidly past the cam in the unintended direction. When the Pro-traxion failed, the 15 feet of slack ran rapidly through the device, causing Welton to fall this distance while still attached to the rope by his mechanical ascenders. The force generated by the fall transferred to Welton’s ascenders, which severed the rope, resulting in Welton’s tragic fatal fall. [Submitted by Ray O’Neil, Plateau District Ranger]"
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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Couchmaster, thanks for posting the quote here, but your statement is COMPLETELY wrong: according to the text quoted below, it was not a Protraxion failure but pilot error in not loading and closing the device properly. Rather like saying, after a car accident in which the driver steered directly into a tree, that there was a mechanical failure of the car. To be sure, I would personally not want to jumar on a rope being held just by a Protraxion or Wall Hauler (without a backup knot tied in, not just a blocker knot, a few inches away), preferably not even on a rope weighted with a haul bag no matter what, but it doesn't appear that the device actually failed at all, just that the leader loaded it improperly. The key point is not to mistakenly focus on the device; it's up to climbers ourselves to be sure we use the system as perfectly as possible to prevent this kind of accident.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 27, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Well put mongrel, and, joking aside, perhaps a good rule of thumb is that before improvising techniques to rush a 3 man ascent KNOW YOUR GEAR, what it can do and can't.
It tears me up that so often I see Touchstone used as people's very first aid climb.
C'mon folks, work the bugs out on a few short routes first.
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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A belated response to all of this:
Until this report was released I was using information directly from the man who was at the belay from which James fell. These things happen fast and it was evidently indiscernible to him if it was a failure from the misuse of James' acsenders or from the Traxion at the belay above that caused the shock load that severed the rope, and to him, the evidence on the ground would have appeared to be similar in either case.
It seems the prelimnary investigation had confirmed what I initially reported. I don't know exactly how that information was derived, as one would think it would be evident to the person at the higher belay that the Traxion had spit the rope out from between the cam and the pulley, that 15 feet of slack had ran out instantly, and that the rope had ultimately shock loaded onto a knot at the end of the cord.
The thing that may make this incident perpetually mysterious is that the bags were already hanging on the same haul line and the Traxion had already held 104 pounds without a problem. The hauls were linked from the top of pitch 2 to the top of pitch 4, and when James applied his extra weight from the 3rd belay, the Traxion failed.
Clear Pilot error should have manifested itself at the point where the weight of the bags was initially applied to the Traxion during the lower out. During the time the 3rd pitch was being cleaned, the bags were hanging on the Traxion already. We know they were detached from the top of pitch 2 at that point because the bags decked at the same time as James, so they were clearly not using a fifi hook prusiked to the haul line like in the old days, and no one was at the top of pitch 2 to perform a lower out. We also know that the man at the upper belay was not actually hauling at that time, or his jumar would have been sucked into the Traxion to arrest the fall. The new report indicates that the slack zipped through the device rather than being completely ejected from it as in my case.
I will not speculate as to whether the cause was pilot error or the Traxion itself. Evidently the Traxion can be rigged in such a way that it will hold 104 pounds of bags first, then simply fail with the light application of another 165 pounds (the total of which is considered acceptable use of the Pro-Traxion). In my case and I believe in James' also, we did not have biners in the bottom hole, but fortunately my backup knot was less than a foot behind the Traxion as opposed to 15. In my case, having a biner in the bottom hole would have prevented it from spitting the rope out, but having not seen the NPS "demonstration", not having spoken with the man at the upper belay, nor having seen the device after the incident, I cannot say with certainty that a biner would have made any difference in James' case.
This is hopefully the last I'll write about this until new information arises from somewhere or the NPS issues a new report. I stand behind everything I've written on this thread, but now I know that my friend James had absolutely no reponsibility for his death. I still agree that it is dangerous to jumar a taught haul line -- even it is fixed on a bomber anchor with a bomber knot -- but his use of his own jumaring system in this case had nothing to do with the severing of the rope. As for the Traxion, until I see the NPS demonstration I cannot fully understand what went wrong.
The existing report one is below:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,7662,7662
--Pete
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Chris Biow
Trad climber
Reston
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Sep 12, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Just to update the statistics on risk per climbing year, I'm beginning to doubt the conclusion of the study mentioned above. While climbing deaths have been fairly consistent in the 20-40 range per year, I believe that study greatly underestimates the total number of active climbers at 100,000, at least if projected forward to 2010. I suspect the number is about five times that. provides a reasonable discussion on the climber population. So actual risk today may be about a fifth of the level stated in that study.
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StephNV
climber
Elko, NV
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Oct 17, 2014 - 12:47am PT
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Get Outside on St James Day - Oct. 17 - RIP James Welton
On Oct. 17, 2008, my friend & co-worker James Welton died in a climbing accident in Zion National Park. James, an expert outdoorsman, loved the wilderness and had to live wher there were mountains to climb. During the week of Oct. 17-24, 2014 (and every year), please honor our "St. James Day" in this way: GET OUTSIDE, then take a picture of YOU LOVING BEING OUTSIDE, and post it for all to see (including James' family and friends). Whether you hike a 14er, push the stroller around the block, climb a frozen waterfall, or put out your arms & spin in the sunshine - GET OUTSIDE & LOVE IT!
#GetOutside #StJamesDay #Oct17EveryYear
James was a mountain first-responder, a seasoned mountain climber and camper, a true friend, a life-long learner, and a natural teacher. He made climbing - and all of life - look easy, with his effortless, flowing style in both. James loved life, his family, Jamie, and being outside most of all. He has absolutely positively affected each person who had the pleasure of knowing him, just through being James - and many who didn't, through "St. James Day" OUTSIDE.
Here is a link to our Facebook event, if you'd like to post there:
http://www.facebook.com/events/529420640525487/?ref_dashboard_filter=upcoming
Thanks in advance - Steph
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Oct 17, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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Awesome way to commemorate your friend. Sounds like a great idea. Thanks for the link.
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StephNV
climber
Elko, NV
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Oct 17, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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It's been 7 years today since James' accident in Zion. We all still miss him. Our family and friends remember him each year by taking a "St. James Day" to go outside & do something between October 17-24. We commemorate with a photo, then post it & tag it. Please join us if you wish - we'd love to see what you did on YOUR "St. James Day!" Steph#GetOutside #StJamesDay #Oct17EveryYear
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 17, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
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Wow what a bump. I like the idea of celebrating his life, and after recently getting off a wall I very much feel the pull of gravity and hope to avoid any pilot errors in my long career ahead of me.
PD, I remember running into you a few times in Zion. In fact I remembered your name after just reading "PD" after, oh, 6 or 7 years! I hope you are doing well, you were very helpful to me when I was learning and extremely friendly - something I wasn't around much as I started my journey.
Peace to everyone, hug your buddies and have some adventures with the best plans and techniques you can.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Oct 17, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
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I just had a friend die in a canyoneering accident in Zion. I'm sorry for your loss. For me, being outside is not what I love most of all, but for those of you do, and for those who love you most of all, I'm wishing you the best.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 17, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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Sorry for your loss, I have a few friends who knew that party as well. Very tragic.
Is being in the outdoors what I love the most? Not at all. My family and friends trump the outdoors and always will. I think of them often when I am out there, and how to be responsible so that they always have me around. I hope they do the same, too.
Greg
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