people pretending to not be racist (OT)

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HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Oct 13, 2008 - 08:26pm PT

Wow bookworm. You might not be racist, but you're certainly a complete jackass.

Do you have any idea how many Europeans came to this country illegally? Basically every ethnic group has been discriminated against in this country at one time or another before they were assimilated and no longer treated overtly as "other." Many came legally, many did not. Mexicans hardly invented illegal immigration.

Ben Franklin once wrote about German immigrants "Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion."

The reason that many of the illegal immigrants that come to this country from Mexico come illegally is because they simply WOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED HERE OTHERWISE. They are unskilled, uneducated, poor and do not meet the qualifications that we put on them.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 13, 2008 - 08:33pm PT

"They are unskilled, uneducated, poor and do not meet the qualifications that we put on them. "

And that's the kind of immigrants we want. You forgot, fail to assimilate and learn the language.

I'm not saying none should be allowed, but it MUST be regulated and DOCUMENTED.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Oct 13, 2008 - 08:38pm PT

Then turn your protest of illegal immigration into a demand for immigration reform that meets the realities of our immigration situation. People keep coming here because they need jobs and because we have jobs we need them to fill. If your only complaint is that these people aren't filling out paperwork documenting their entry then demand an open border policy. These people aren't paying hundreds and even thousands of dollars to coyote's and risking death in the desert because they are too lazy to fill out paperwork...it's because WE WOULD NEVER LET THEM THROUGH IF THEY FILLED IT OUT.

There is a good reason that both McCain's and Bush's immigration plans had temp worker programs. Unfortunately, they were both demonized by the right wingers for their audacity to actually deal with reality.

Gene

climber

Oct 13, 2008 - 08:43pm PT

Friends,

Am I deluded as I sit in my house surrounded and flooded by the love I give and get from my wonderful and kick-ass mixed race kids that people really give a sh#t about “ethnic origins” or whatever we now call it?

Please join me in my constructive delusion.

The best thing about racism is that it will die within the next generation or two. Racism is going down the same road as slavery, bound feet (kids’ great-grandma suffered through that), branding criminals, lack of rights for those other than whites of the landed class, separate drinking fountains and Yellow Stars for Jews to only scratch the surface.

My kids will leave this world a better place than they found it. How about yours? How are you preparing them?

GM

nick d

Trad climber

Oct 13, 2008 - 08:44pm PT

J.C. Watts, former GOP congressman from Oklahoma and a black American, on the decision of the four front-running GOP candidates to skip Tavis Smiley's All American Presidential Forum, scheduled to be broadcast by PBS this Thursday.

"I think the best that comes out of stupid decisions like this," said former Oklahoma Rep. J.C. Watts, is "that African-Americans might say, 'Was it because of my skin color?' Now, maybe it wasn't, but African-Americans do say, 'It crossed my mind.'"

The invitations were extended in March, but the front-runners have claimed scheduling conflicts. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who's weighing getting into the race, called that excuse "baloney" and called the no-shows "fundamentally wrong." On "Good Morning America" today, Gingrich said GOP candidates are making a mistake because "African-Americans have been hurt more by the failures of government" than any other group.

Watts pointed out that some of the candidates with more liberal histories on issues such as guns and abortion have reached out to conservative groups that don't share their views.

"You kind of scratch your head thinking why are they making decisions like that?" Watts said. He speculated the candidates don't have any African-American staffers who "could say to them, 'You're making a huge mistake strategically by not at least reaching out and talking to this demographic.'"

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 13, 2008 - 08:54pm PT

HDDJ, do you understand that these ILLEGAL immigrants are also taking many 'skilled' jobs under the guise of jobs Americans won't do. Namely in various construction fields.

My bottom line is that these people need to documented, go through the process, get SSN's, pay taxes, etc... Just like everybody else. Otherwise they are screwing our system. If they're is a job opening we can't fill here, we'll hire those laborers. You can't just have floods of people coming and choosing what to do undocumented. That's not a sane immigration policy. IT'S INSANE.

Not to mention we need to know who's here for security purposes, not just terrorism. We usually, for a reason, don't take criminals because they are unwelcome. And should be.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Oct 13, 2008 - 09:03pm PT

"HDDJ, do you understand that these ILLEGAL immigrants are also taking many 'skilled' jobs under the guise of jobs Americans won't do. Namely in various construction fields. "

bluering- Certainly this is true to an extent. Most of those people didn't come here with those skills though, they learned them by coming here and working. They started as an unskilled worker and worked their way up. This is not the predominate role of undocumented workers, however, though "taking skilled jobs that would otherwise go to citizens" is certainly the right wing mantra.

You will find no complaints on the left for trying to legalize immigrants. There comes a point though when laws simply do not reflect the reality of the world and that point is long since passed with immigration.

Enforcing a law for the sake of the law is stupid. Change the law to be fair and reflect the reality of the world.

So I readily acknowledge your point bluering, and I ask you to do the same for mine. Do you recognize that these people do not come here because they want to dodge the system...they dodge the system because it is the obstacle keeping them from coming here. Change the system to allow unskilled laborers to come here and work and it will be easy to document them.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 13, 2008 - 09:12pm PT

"Enforcing a law for the sake of the law is stupid. Change the law to be fair and reflect the reality of the world. "

Fair to who? American skilled low-education workers or foreign low-educated workers?

The border laws and immigration laws serve a reason. To regulate the flow of people into this country that just about everybody want into.

Maybe we should look into 'upgrading' Mexico into a succssful and uncorrupted, lawfull economy.

bookworm

Social climber

Falls Church, VA

Oct 13, 2008 - 09:34pm PT

why am i a jackass? because i work in a public school and see the many variations of LEGAL immigrants everyday, the vast majority of whom are NOT caucasion?

yes, i know about all the discrimination faced by immigrants, but i didn't know we were talking about history; i thought you were going to explain the "inherently racist" immigration policies, but you actually made an argument for current policy = limit the number of "unskilled, uneducated" immigrants in favor of those who are skilled and educated...now, unless you suggest that "skilled and educated" is a new race classification i'm still not sure how our immigration policies are racist because, as i said before, i see a whole lot more brown faces with accents at work everyday than i do white faces

i do believe we need to secure our borders and the onus for providing jobs and/or education and other social services to unskilled and uneducated people should be on the government of mexico (and others south of the border) rather than on the american taxpayers...i don't believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be given the same opportunities as LEGAL immigrants; now, for those illegals who have been here many years and have successfully assimilated (no, that doesn't mean abandoning their culture; it means learning the language and aspiring to become a citizen) i'm open to a compromise, but that doesn't mean a free pass

jbar

Mountain climber

Inside my head

Oct 13, 2008 - 09:37pm PT

Who ever created a "sliding scale" for racism is barking up the wrong tree. In that scenario there isn't a difference between preferrence, bias, or predjudism of any type. It's all just racist beginning at scale 0 and going up. Maybe on applications they should ask for your racial tolerance number. If I were looking to fill a position for customer service and a guy came to me wearing his hat sideways and couldn't speak in a respectful manner I wouldn't want to hire him so I'm a racist. Not. I'm a fair person. I try to keep bias in the center. I don't give special consideration to anyone based on color or ethnic background. That makes me a racist? It does on the sliding scale. Again, why does preferrence, bias, or predjudism of any type always have to be racist?
And again, The last thing black people want is to have a bunch of rich crackers pretending they know what it's like to be black and shouldering their "cause".

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Oct 13, 2008 - 09:43pm PT

"Maybe we should look into 'upgrading' Mexico into a succssful and uncorrupted, lawfull economy."

Bookworm I'm all for this, it is certainly part of the long term solution. And your initial response was extremely sarcastic and dumb. Doing a quick survey at your school is hardly a tour in immigration policy, history or necessarily even representative of the country at large.

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Oct 13, 2008 - 09:46pm PT

I remember sitting in the grape fields as my parents picked. The white boys would throw rocks and got racial on us.

Juan "Anchor Baby" De Fuca

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:08pm PT

"Maybe we should look into 'upgrading' Mexico into a succssful and uncorrupted, lawfull economy."

I said that, HDDJ.

Jbar, "I don't give special consideration to anyone based on color or ethnic background."

I'll second that, and by definition that makes you a practical realist, not a racist. Quite the opposite of a racist actually.

jbar

Mountain climber

Inside my head

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:35pm PT

"I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts...and beer."
AL

dirtbag

climber

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:38pm PT

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:42pm PT

db, WTF is the point of that? That since he and I are prolly both conservatives, we're both racist?

c'mon.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:47pm PT

Sorry bluering, your's and book's handles often look the same at a glance. I would still like your comment on my request.

dirtbag

climber

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:50pm PT

"db, WTF is the point of that? That since he and I are prolly both conservatives, we're both racist?

c'mon. "

The point? I hadn't thought about a point, just that the photo was interesting and it seemed as good of a place as any to post it.

I guess if there is a point, it's that a lot of people probably feel this way. But it certainly wasn't directed at anyone here, nor have I ever seen any racist behavior by anyone on this thread and I've read a lot of posts by you and others accused of racism.

I wouldn't say that about all STers, though.